The Autism Little Learners Podcast

Episode #153: Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) with Dr. Taylor Day
Host: Tara Phillips
Guest: Dr. Taylor Day
Date: December 16, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tara Phillips welcomes Dr. Taylor Day (Dr. Tay), a licensed psychologist specializing in neurodiversity-affirming care, to unpack the complex topic of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) in autistic children. The conversation centers on understanding the deep need for autonomy found in children with the PDA profile, the impact of the fight/flight response, and the importance of shifting from compliance-based to connection-based strategies in both home and educational settings. Dr. Tay shares practical, compassionate strategies for parents and educators to foster trust-based environments and honors each child's perspective while maintaining necessary boundaries.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Dr. Taylor Day and PDA

• Dr. Tay shares her background in clinical psychology and neurodiversity-affirming practices, highlighting her clinical approach and personal connection to autism through her brother.

  “We’re really big on helping families to feel seen, heard, and understood in this process... especially for kids where there’s this suspected PDA profile.”
  — Dr. Tay (03:00)

2. Defining Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)

• PDA is not a formal diagnosis and lacks robust research and criteria, but it’s recognized by many clinicians and families as a distinct profile.
• Key features include extreme demand avoidance that appears oppositional but is rooted in an intense need for autonomy and a nervous system-based fight/flight response.

  “At its core… this is like refusing to do things. It can appear very defiant or oppositional... But rather, I can’t access doing something. The reason... is the nervous system gets activated and goes into this fight/flight response… like a panic mode.”
  — Dr. Tay (05:08)

• The term ‘pathological’ is contested within the autistic community. Alternative terms include "Persistent Drive for Autonomy."

  "The autistic community as a whole doesn’t love that name because of the word pathological."
  — Dr. Tay (06:18)

3. What is the ‘Drive for Autonomy’?

• Contrasts traditional parent-child or adult-child hierarchies with a PDA individual’s need to feel on an equal plane.
• Children with PDA may seek to control situations, negotiate, and challenge the status quo—not as manipulation, but as a need to self-advocate and maintain emotional safety.

  “They don’t always believe in rules of like, 'because I said so.' So... it’s challenging status quo... their nervous system is constantly getting peaked and they’re in that fight or flight mode pretty consistently.”
  — Dr. Tay (08:10)

4. Fight or Flight vs. Manipulation: Reframing Behaviors

• It often looks like willful oppositionality, but Dr. Tay emphasizes it is not manipulative—rather, a nervous-system survival response.

  “For parents, it can feel manipulative, but it likely isn’t... It’s about understanding what the meaning is behind the behavior.”
  — Dr. Tay (10:04)

• Behavioral interventions focused solely on the surface (e.g., planned ignoring) can worsen the situation by feeding into the child's stress response.

  “Being ignored can be more activating... when a parent or teacher hears, ‘Let’s collect data on this,’ they’re like, ‘No, I want to fix this now!’”
  — Dr. Tay (11:27)

5. PDA, Co-occurring Diagnoses, and Masking

• PDA is often associated with high-masking autism, anxiety, and sometimes mistaken for ADHD or ODD.

  “Preliminary research has shown there’s actually more overlap in some of these PDA traits with things like ADHD, anxiety, trauma... For the majority of cases, it’s this high masking autism profile.”
  — Dr. Tay (13:35)

• Diagnosis is complicated, as traditional systems may miss PDA or misattribute the behaviors.

6. Effective Approaches: The ‘Three-Bucket’ Model

• Dr. Tay outlines her “three bucket approach” for determining which demands to uphold, drop or work towards—balancing safety, family/classroom values, and flexibility.
  • Non-negotiables: Safety issues, key family/classroom values.
  • Shoulds: Socially driven rules/norms that may not be necessary.
  • Yet/Ideal: Middle ground; skills to build or boundaries to work toward over time.

  “In our first bucket... non-negotiables. The other extreme, I call those the shoulds... then the third bucket, kind of the in between, are things we can work towards...”
  — Dr. Tay (16:00, 18:00)

• Tara relates with classroom examples, illustrating how team alignment and prioritizing what truly matters for the student is critical.

  “Getting the adults on the same page is most of the battle... that kind of approach is just so helpful.”
  — Tara (21:33)

7. Challenging the Status Quo in Classrooms

• Many “rules” (e.g., sitting in seats, writing utensil choice, unnecessary repetitive assignments) can be dropped or made more flexible to foster autonomy—especially when they serve no central purpose.

  “Kids should be sitting in their seats... but if they can learn, they probably can learn better moving their body... Or, they’re allowed to choose their writing utensil. Why do you care?”
  — Dr. Tay (22:15)

• Mastery should be prioritized over repetition; collaborate with the student to co-create expectations.

  “If they can show you after a couple, they've got it... Can we give some of these choices as well?”
  — Dr. Tay (23:59)

8. Mindset Shift: From Compliance to Connection

• The most powerful strategy is a shift in adult perspective: see the child as a human first, not a checklist of behaviors.

  “It’s less about what we do for the kids, and more about how we think about behavior. And so give yourself grace...”
  — Dr. Tay (28:35)

• Validate parents as experts on their own children and collaborate authentically.

  “Parents know their kids... If I could go back and tell my younger self, they know their kids best. Listen to their ideas...”
  — Tara (30:32)

9. Why PDA is Misunderstood or Overlooked

• Not recognized in common diagnostic systems (e.g., DSM), often dismissed as a “social media thing” or ignored within educational/medical systems.
• Lack of formal research, education, and slow adoption of neurodiversity-affirming practices fuel misunderstandings.

  “It’s not a diagnosis… it’s become such a social media thing because so many voices are coming together and saying this resonates.”
  — Dr. Tay (31:16)

• Masking at school may hide PDA behaviors, leading to “home problem” narratives.

10. Balancing Evidence-Based Practice With Connection

• Dr. Tay addresses clinician fears about permissiveness and the unknowns of non-traditional approaches, advocating for the primacy of respect and connection.

  “I would rather be wrong on this side than the other side... I’m seeing them, I’m hearing them, I’m listening to them... even if my approaches are wrong, there’s therapeutic backing to rapport and relationship.”
  — Dr. Tay (37:33)

11. Practical Advice for Families and Educators (Resources & Communication)

• For parents: Seek evaluation with a clinician familiar with PDA and high-masking autism. If not possible, start with resources:
  • Low Demand Parenting by Amanda Diekman
  • The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene
  • Beyond Behaviors by Mona Delahooke
• For educators: Open collaborative conversations with families using “I wonder…” language.

  “If you’re suspecting this... start by opening the conversation with the parent, less about ‘Have you heard of PDA?’ but more like, ‘What are you seeing works at home? How can we collaborate?’”
  — Dr. Tay (39:11)

• Use declarative, non-directive language to foster curiosity, autonomy, and trust.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mislabeling behaviors:

  “It can also feel very controlling and like they don’t respect authority… [but] it’s more than just, ‘I don’t want to do something,’ but rather, ‘I can’t access doing something.'”
  — Dr. Tay (05:30)

• On shifting adult mindsets:

  “It’s less about what we do for the kids, and more about how we think about behavior. Give yourself grace…”
  — Dr. Tay (28:35)

• On the power of connection:

  “You can never go wrong with connection and trust.”
  — Tara (38:24)

• On the risk of ignoring PDA:

  “I’d rather be wrong on this side than saying, ‘Let’s stick with the research and what we know and use the behavioral approach’… because what if connection is actually way more effective?”
  — Dr. Tay (37:33)

Important Timestamps

• 00:40 – Introduction to Dr. Taylor Day
• 04:59 – Defining PDA (key characteristics, lack of formal diagnosis)
• 07:16 – Explaining the drive for autonomy
• 10:04 – Reframing “manipulative” behaviors
• 13:35 – Overlap with other diagnoses & masking
• 15:53 – Introduction to low demand approaches and the three-bucket model
• 22:15 – Challenging classroom “rules” and practical accommodations
• 28:35 – Mindset shift for parents and educators
• 31:16 – Why PDA is easily misunderstood
• 37:33 – Navigating the evidence-based versus connection-based tension
• 39:11 – Advice for parents and educators; resource recommendations

Recommended Resources

• Low Demand Parenting by Amanda Diekman
• The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene
• Beyond Behaviors by Mona Delahooke

Connect with Dr. Taylor Day

• Instagram: @the.dr.tay
• Podcast: Evolve with Dr. Taylor
• Website: drtaylorday.com

Episode Takeaways

• Recognize PDA as a hypothesized profile deserving validation—even in the absence of formal recognition.
• Individualized, autonomy-supporting, connection-focused strategies are both respectful and effective.
• The most profound changes begin not with "fixing the child" but with shifting adult mindsets and seeing children as whole, autonomous humans.

“Find the good in every day.” — Tara