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The Autism Little Learners Podcast
#153 - Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) with Dr. Taylor Day
00:43:53
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In today's episode, Dr. Taylor Day joins me to dive into pathological demand avoidance or pda, a profile sometimes seen in autistic children. We explore the deep need for autonomy, the impact of the fight, flight response and why. Understanding the why behind behaviors is essential. Dr. Tay shares practical strategies for parents and educators to create supportive, trust based environments that honor children's perspectives while maintaining necessary boundaries. This conversation is all about shifting our approach from compliance to connection. So let's get started.
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Hi, I'm Tara and this is the Autism Little Learners Podcast. I am a speech language pathologist with a twist. I've run my own communication based classroom for over two decades and I'm so excited to share actionable tips and strategies for supporting young autistic children.
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My goal is to help you feel.
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More confident and successful when teaching your autistic child or students at the early childhood level.
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If you are ready to learn some.
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Tried and true strategies that really work, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started.
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A
Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Tay. Dr. Taylor Day is a licensed psychologist specializing in neuroaffirming care for autistic children and their families, including very early diagnosis and intervention. She has a PhD in clinical psychology and is the CEO and founder of Dr. Tay Concierge Clinical Care. Her practice integrates the whole family approach, a process she created utilizing evidence informed principles after seeing a gap in autism care. Her passion for child psychology and her focus on autism is in many ways tied to her own personal experience and growing up with a brother who was diagnosed at 23 months of age. Let's jump in with Dr. Tay. Welcome to the Autism Little Learners podcast to Dr. Taylor Day. I am so thrilled to be talking to you. I know we had connected before about the Preschool Autism Summit last summer, but this is our first time actually talking to each other and I'm thrilled to have you on the show.
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C
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and to talk about PDA today.
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A
Yeah, I know everyone is so interested in this topic, but first, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself?
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C
Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, Dr. Taylor Day, I go by Dr. Tay on a lot of like my social media, my podcast, but ultimately I'm a licensed psychologist and I specialize in neurodiversity affirming care for autistic children and their families. I have a clinical practice where we see kids, but we've now expanded to even seeing adults through the practice. Some of the other psychologists in my practice do. But we're really big on, you know, helping families to feel seen, hurt, seen, heard, and understood in this process. And I think, especially for kids where there's this suspected PDA profile, which we're going to talk about what that is. A lot of times they get dismissed by the medical system of like, oh, no, this can't be autism. Like, no, they're not like that. And so we often end up doing, like, a lot of second opinions and really helping guide families through. Through this process of getting the diagnosis but then knowing what to do after the fact.
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A
Wow. The work you're doing is so important. And I think whenever it comes to challenging behavior behaviors, negative behaviors, whatever you want to call it, it's really emotional and really hard for families, hard for schools, therapists. And I know coming from a background where my son had some issues and, I mean, he's grown up now, but just thinking of this, you know, he was given the EBD label at one point, and, you know, you just wonder about, I don't know, look back, if we knew then what we know now, would we have looked at things differently? You know? Yeah. And so I think a lot of people, and you can maybe speak to this. When we talk about PDA behaviors, a lot of times go into the category of ebd, you know, emotional behavior disability or ocd or not ocd, Sorry. Odd, Oppositional, defiant. I don't know if it's technically called that anymore, but I think it's really easy to seem like things are really purposeful. And so I think talking about PDA will be a great place to talk about that. So can you explain what pathological demand avoidance is like? What are the key indicators or signs and behaviors that may indicate someone has this PDA profile?
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C
Yeah, you know, it's always interesting being asked this question because it's not well defined, what it is. Right. So I can give some key markers, but one of the reasons it's not well defined is it's not a diagnosis. And really, there isn't a lot of research to support pda. But I think it's so important that the re. Understanding the research hasn't caught up yet, but we can still validate the lived experience. And it's interesting because I get a lot of referrals for these families and get to work with a lot of families who feel like PDA fits and there's some commonalities and some underlying themes. But at its core is when we think of demand avoidance, ultimately this is like refusing to do Things it can appear very defiant or oppositional. It can also feel very controlling and like they don't respect authority. And so then as a result they end up, you know, avoiding what you're asking them to do. And it's interesting because PDA was initially coined pathological demand avoidance. And the autistic community as a whole doesn't love that name because of the word pathological. But on the other side is what is it? It does tell us is this is interfering with everyday functioning in some ways. And so it's saying that it's more than just like, I don't want to do something, but rather I can't access doing something. And the reason that they can't access doing something is we really right now are conceptualizing it as the nervous system gets activated and goes into this fight flight response. And this fight flight response is like a panic mode which then doesn't allow them to access. And so one of the things we know is that having a sense of autonomy can, can help to make it so that fight flight system doesn't kick. And so the alternative name that you'll sometimes hear for PDA is either pervasive or persistent drive for autonomy.
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A
Oh yeah, Yes, I have heard that. And that explanation, when I heard it is so kind of mind blowing in a way.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You know, can you describe what that means? Like that drive for autonomy?
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C
Yeah. So it's interesting because like in, you know, what I'm going to call traditional parenting models, which are based off of neurotypical kids, which we often think of this parent child hierarchy or even adult child hierarchy, where, you know, adult adults are in charge and then kids, you know, kind of comply or listen as a result of this natural hierarchy. And so what this drive for autonomy really means is kids, you know, or individuals. It can occur in adults, but kids really want this even playing field. They don't want to feel like this hierarchy is there. And so they're seeking out ways to be able to equal, equalize this hierarchy and feel like the parent isn't in charge. And so kids that often have this suspected, or what I like to often call this theorized PDA profile, since we don't fully have clear criteria, often are like trying to take control of a situation or they might try to negotiate with you. They want to feel like they're equally important. And they don't always believe in rules of like the, because I said something. So it's like, but why? So it's challenging status quo. And while it does rise to a level where it is causing interference and impairment. Ultimately, when we think about it in our world, we do expect kids to be compliant. Right. But then they turn 18 and all of a sudden we want them to be autonomous and we want them to know how to self advocate. Well, if we don't teach these skills for these kids, you know, that, you know, in general for neurodivergent kids, autistic kids in particular, that switch is incredibly hard. It's hard for a neurotypical kid as well. And so it's one of those things of like realigning our values too, to understand that there is a skill set in understanding the why and thinking critically and self advocating and being able to think through decisions. But for these kids, it often really seems to impact them on the day to day basis and their nervous system is constantly getting peaked and they're in that fight or flight mode pretty consistently.
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A
Yeah, that fight or flight mode piece of it really makes a lot of sense because when you're in that mode, you're not, you know, thinking clearly, going, okay, I'm going to do this, you know, being manipulative.
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C
Right.
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You need to be thinking really clearly and not be in that stress response mode to think clearly and make those decisions like being manipulative.
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C
Right, right.
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So it's really interesting and I talk.
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C
With parents, it can feel manipulative, but it likely isn't manipulative. And I come from the mindset of just being a neurodiversity affirming provider of like understanding what the meaning is behind the behavior, what really is going on as opposed to just looking at that behavioral. And I think that can be really important. When we slow down and we say, what's going on here? You know, what is really driving this? I think we can start to shift our perspective and how we're looking at this. And I think for any kid, that can be a great way to develop the relationship, connect and also work on some skills at the same time.
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A
Yeah, it's such an important point because I think of how many times I've been asked over my career and now on social media, what should I do? My student is kicking, what should I do? My child is spitting, hitting, you know, fill in the blank. And that is such surface level thinking. If we could just write a social story and that's all we needed, man, we wouldn't be having these continued behavioral challenges in the school or at home. It's surface level and I can't answer that because there's so much like you said, you have to dig deeper and Go beyond just the behavior that's happening.
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C
I often say we need to collect the data on it and figure out. But what's tricky is a lot of these, like behavioral approaches will target the behavior directly and they can feel like they're working. Right? Like, okay, we're just going to ignore the behavior. And for kids in fight or flight mode, I mean in general, like, not how I practice, I was trained that way, but largely not how I practice. But for kids in fight or flight mode, being ignored as response to this actually can be more activating. But what's hard is when a parent or a teacher hears, well, let's collect data on this. They're like, no, no, but I want to fix this behavior now. Right. And so they're looking for those quick fixes. And it doesn't feel like this longer term plan doesn't feel as rewarding and satisfying and so we're less likely to do it. But it's interesting when we can understand the why, then we know the perfect intervention target and then we end up having way more success at reducing that behavior.
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A
Yeah, I hear you on that. And I agree. Being in the classroom for classroom for 25 years, you know, there have been so many approaches that have come and gone over that time and things where they, you know, they, wherever you're learning from, have told you, like, this is what we need to do. Things like planned ignoring when a lot of us have been done it because that's what we were told to do. And you can look back after years of experience and see those kids like you're talking about who the ignoring actually can increase the behavior because they need.
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C
You, they need to get. Yeah.
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Yes. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just so excited that so many different techniques and philosophies and strategies are coming forth, especially from autistic voices that kind of tell us like, this is horrible, this is, this is good long term, this is traumatic. And really listening to that when we're deciding which approach to use.
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C
And so what.
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Oh, keep going.
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C
Real quick, can I draw this parallel because I'm realizing I haven't of why we keep talking about like autistic students and then we're mentioning pda. So right now, again, remember, we don't have a lot of research. We, we don't have clear diagnostic criteria. This isn't like in the DSM where we diagnose everything else. But right now, the largest kind of conceptualization of PDA is that it is like a, I, again, I like to call it a theorized profile of Autism like a certain way that autism presents. Now it's interesting though, because preliminary research has shown that there's actually more overlap in some of these PDA traits with things like adhd, anxiety, trauma. And so we're definitely still learning exactly what it is, is it its own distinct thing. But typically when I'm assessing, you know, a kid and a parent saying, I think PDA is going on, you know, we'll put it in the report and talk about it and so that, you know, whoever reads the report, like a teacher can understand what's going on and you know, we'll provide recommendations that support that. But ultimately for the majority of cases, it's this autism. A lot of times it's this high masking autism profile. So really subtle traits that, you know, often are missed. Plus I find that co occurring anxiety, and not only anxiety in the sense of that fight or flight mode or that panic mode, but also a lot of times I find that anxiety is much broader than just that alone. And this tends to be a highly anxious kid too. So that's right now clinical how I'm thinking about it. You know, you'll hear people say like, oh, but PDA can go with ADHD and it's not autism. My yes, that might be true. And we need to learn more. And my urge is, remember a lot of these kids are missed. And we also know that getting an ADHD diagnosis often greatly delays an autism diagnosis. So are we missing the autism diagnosis as part of this? And I think that's an important piece to consider.
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A
Really interesting. So what kind of approaches or strategies have you found or people found most effective when you're thinking this PDA profile could be possible for a child?
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C
Yeah. So one of the first things that you're going to hear on social media is about low demand approaches. So a lot of times they coin it low demand parenting. And I actually think there's some really amazing principles that I often pull in there. And I think there's a lot of nuance to it. And I think sometimes too it can swing to a point of permissive, you know, parenting or permissive approaches where it swings too far. And a lot of times I get referrals of families that have tried low demand, but they've gone too permissive and it's not working for their family system and it's burning everyone out. But the way that I like to think about it is this is something, you know, just doing this over and over. I love visuals and analogies is I like to think about a three bucket Approach. And this is something you can even think about in the classroom. Right. So in our first bucket, what I call that is the non negotiables. The things that I always say go in the non negotiables are safety related things. Those are boundaries we are always going to hold. The other things that I talk about for families as I say, you know, what are your key family values? The things that are so essential to you as a family that you, you want to enforce those boundaries, even if it means sending the kid into fight or flight mode, even if it means activating them, because that is so important. Right. So in a classroom setting, what this could look like, like, what are some of those key things that like, you absolutely can't drop these demands within a classroom setting.
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A
Yeah.
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On the other side, like the other extreme, I call those the should. These shoulds are typically driven by neurotypical, you know, standards. Like, and they're the things that we learn that kids should be doing. Or again, I talk about this with parents, but I think it still applies, is the way that you were raised can impact how you raise your kids. And so even thinking about the way you were raised, you know, what, what sentiments and shoulds do you bring into the classroom? Because you were always taught in your family, that's what you do. And these are the type of things that when we really take a step back and we say, wait, do I care about these? It's like, no, I really don't. These are the, the demands that are easiest and most accessible to drop. And then the third bucket, kind of the in between is I have two different names. I either call it the yet bucket or the ideal bucket. Of these are things we can work towards and kind of boundaries and, you know, rules that we can have over time. But if a kid is in burnout, we're not going into this. So if they're having a really hard time, if a kid is having meltdowns in your classroom, these are not the boundaries that you'll be enforcing. We got to get them regulated first. Or the yet bucket is like skill development. Like, they might not be there yet to be able to be able to follow through. And so it's, I do believe it's important to look at demands and we can talk some more specifics of what that looks like. But I also think going through this exercise of like, what feels like my absolute we to stick to this, where can I challenge my mindset and learn to drop some of these things? And where are the ones that I can be patient and Maybe we're working towards, but we might not be there right now.
- [19:18]
A
Yeah. This resonates with me so much. As you were talking, I'm like, oh, my gosh. We kind of did that with one student in particular at the elementary level many years ago. He's probably my late 20s now, but he was in about third grade, second or third grade. And he had a lot of behaviors that different teachers, when he was in the gen ed classroom, would call him out for things that we wouldn't have, and we all had to get on the same page. And I took kind of the basket scenario from Dr. Ross Green's book.
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C
Yep.
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A
Is it kind of similar?
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Maybe. Yeah. So when I, like, kind of started to conceptualize this, it was this intersection of the collaborative problem solving and like, what we say with, like, low demand, but trying to make it, like, more systematic for families. Yeah. A lot of times they'd be like, how do I know what demands to drop? Like, I'm. I'm on board with this. Or sometimes it's like I'm feeling resistance. And it's like, are you feeling resistance? Because you need a mindset shift here, you know, and you need to provide accommodations that you're ultimately not providing. So. Yes, yes. Overlap, for sure. Yeah.
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A
And. And any kind of strategy like that, at least in the school, getting the adults on the same page is most of the battle because we had these things. Like this student would. Whenever he would leave the classroom, he'd turn off the lights, and the teacher made it the biggest deal in the whole world. And, you know, he did it every day. And it was kind of like, this should be in the basket of like, this is not even on our radar. Who cares? We're not going to mention it. We're not going to, you know, whatever. And then, you know, there's certain things, like you said, are we will. If it induces a meltdown or stress response, like it could be running in the street, we're gonna stop them.
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C
Right.
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A
And. And then there's that middle part in the. You have to kind of decide as a group and, you know, what's going to be the thing that we're going to try to teach skills around. And it might only be a couple things at once. Something might be in that bucket of we're not going to touch it for now, kind of like you said yet. That's not what our focus is going to be yet. But with this kid, it really worked because it was the adults kind of responding the same and making those same things a priority. And not a priority. And it kind of let people lay off a little bit on things that did not matter. So that kind of approach is just so helpful. Yeah.
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C
And I think that what we don't realize is as adults, we. We sometimes have these, like, rules for no reason. Right. And I think this can really help to challenge status quo. While. So I. I think about. This is something I have parents go through, you know, with. With Dr. Ross's. Dr. Ross Green's like approach. Like, you're often using collaborative problem solving and like, bringing in the kid. But I like having a parent have a mindset shift around this first. But in turn, what you're doing is you're giving this kid more autonomy and agency, you know, and. And also you're respecting them as a human being. You're seeing the human in front of you versus a set of rules. And so just some tangibles I think of. I mean, this one's a big one. Is like, like, well, kids should be sitting in their seats. It's like, okay, that's an accommodation. How do we drop that demand that they need to sit in their seat? Because if they can learn, they probably can learn better moving their body or like, it could look like something. Like, okay, they're allowed to choose their writing utensil. Why do you care if they write in a pen? Well, I remember being in school, and it's like, you didn't write in a pen. You had to write it with a pencil. Why? Why do you have to do that? Like, it's some absurd rule that someone once said and then everyone clung to, and it really doesn't have logic behind it. But I also think about things like, you know, within a classroom setting, one of the accommodations I'm talking about a lot is can we focus on mastery and competency over repetition? So if typically your kid has. You're assigning a worksheet of 20 problems, if they can show you after a couple, they've got it, like, that is one of the things that every problem is a demand, and every problem is cumulatively adding to their. Their bucket to the point it's overflowing. And so it could be 20 problems, and then they're melting down. Or you could have three problems. You know, they've got the concept, and then they're staying regulated because, you know, they have a sense of autonomy and they're not getting demand after demand. And I love bringing. Collaborating with kids, too. Of like, okay, how many do you think it's gonna take, you know, for you to feel like you've got this. Oh, they say three. Okay, let's try it. You know, and then if not, it's like, you know, I do think this might need a little bit of practice. More practice. Should we work on that now? Should we come back to it later? Right. Can we give some of these choices as well?
- [24:32]
A
And you know what? Even for kids, without anyone saying, I suspect this PDA profile or I suspect odd or whatever, what you are saying is, like, validating. I could tear up right now. Validating the things I felt long ago as a mom when my son was struggling in school and struggling with that authority and being told what to do. And I wish I had a Dr. Tay then to be like, okay, this is what you do. Because it's hard as a parent sometimes you lose your confidence because you just think, well, am I not seeing this the same way because I'm a parent? But he. I remember this clearly. He was in some class and they had a pre test on parts of a microscope, and it was the kind of thing where it had a picture of a microscope and a line for everything, like 20 somethings. He got a hundred percent on the pre test. So then I said, okay, so now what? Like, if he got 100% on the pretest and they're like, well, we're studying the microscope this week and he'll have the test on Friday. And I'm like, buddy, he's not gonna behave this week because, you know, like, I knew what the outcome was going to be, and there was no flexibility, no introspection on the educator's part as to why he can't sit through that and take the test, which he already got 100 of the pretest.
- [26:02]
C
Yeah. And that's like one of those things because that's what we're doing, right? It's like this crazy rule that makes no sense. And of course, like, he's gonna get activated because, like, he's being forced to do something that's not logical in his mind. Right. Like, why do I need to do this? And it. And it also just doesn't. I mean, this is blunt, but it doesn't respect him as a human being. Right. Like, it's seeing the task. Or sometimes I talk about seeing the behavior before you're ever seeing the kid as a human. And it's like, I. I want in. What I say is like, imagine an adult, right? Like, if. If someone. I mean, actually we do this. And granted, sometimes we don't feel great, but, you know, like all those, like, online courses where it's like, you know, you gotta do them because you gotta do them. But even internally, we get so frustrated. But we also have to remember we have a broader skill set for emotion regulation than kids. Kids do. And, you know, and so what I'll hear in this is, will they have to learn how to tolerate this like I do as an adult? And it's like, right. But there's supportive ways we can teach it, and it's not a skill right now. So the result of this is that they're gonna escalate, and then they're gonna get punished for that. Right. You're. You're just entering into this vicious cycle as well.
- [27:22]
A
Right. And many times I think this is. Is why they have an iep, Individualized Education Program. Individualize things when they pop up. And, yes, people have to learn how to, at some point, like, tolerate the boring moments, but a boring full week while you wait for the test that you've already passed. You know what I mean? It's like, is there better use of the time and how we're thinking about this? And I just think, gosh, talking to you for this short amount of time has brought back so many things about my son in particular. And he's the kind of kid right from the start, you know, like, his thinking is he's noticing details. He's picking up on stuff. He was. I think he was three. And I'm like, we're gonna go see the Easter bunny. And we went to see the bunny, and we get there, and the bunny kind of turns around, and my son looks at us, and he goes, goes, is that the real Easter bunny? I'm like, oh, yeah. Why? He goes, why does he have a zipper on his back? Like, he's noticing all these things. And. And he's the same now, still. He's the same kid. Yeah. Just 30 years old. Yeah.
- [28:30]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, too, on the parenting piece, and it presents in different ways, but. Well, I guess two things that I want people to hear is. Number one, I hope what you take from this is some of this is a huge. Not some of this. A lot of this is a huge mindset shift for yourself. Right? It's. It's less about what we do for the kids, and it's more about how we think about behavior. And so give yourself grace in understanding all of this, but it can be beneficial for your whole classroom. But the second piece that I want to really say is your voice really matters in this. And I unfortunately see a lot of parents being dismissed by the education system of either, like, for some of these kids that are high masking, what they do is we see the fight flight at home, but they go into like a freeze fawn state at school, so freezing, where they're like complying and doing everything. Sometimes it's the model student or even fawning with like, people pleasing, you know, coming out. And then they have this. They're holding it together all day. There's this rebound effect that happens. And so time and time again, I hear either directly from schools or via parent is like, oh, this is a home problem. We don't see anything here. Nothing's going on here. This doesn't fit under an iep. We can't accommodate this, all of these things, and it's invalidating the parent. Or even if there are these fight flight things, it's like if this parent is coming and being like, I'm figuring out these approaches. Sometimes I also find schools saying, like, that's not how we do things. Right. And so then, like you said, like, losing your confidence. You knew he couldn't sit through an entire week of learning about the microscope, but you were spot on. Right. And it's like, well, no, that's what we do. And so really validating and seeing the parent as a collaborator in this can go such a far way.
- [30:33]
A
Yeah. I love that parents know their kids. That is probably the number one thing coming off of, you know, that many years in the classroom. If I could go back and tell my younger self, they know their kids best and listen, listen to their ideas, listen to their insights on their kid. Exactly. So I, I think we're kind of seeing the next question I was going to ask. We've kind of, throughout talking about this, kind of see why, but why do you think PDA is misunderstood or overlooked in that broader context of, of autism? And how can we improve awareness or, or understanding? Like, if you're trying to explain to someone on your, your team about it.
- [31:16]
C
I mean, I think one of the biggest reasons is it's not a diagnosis. Right. And so I'll hear things like either like others aren't informed about it, which is understandable, or it's like, oh, that's a social media thing. And I think it's become so, such a social media thing because so many collective voices are coming together and saying this resonates, like these patterns resonate. And yeah, it's, it's not quote unquote, right now a real thing in terms of the medical system or the educational system. But that shouldn't stop us from validating the experience. Right. We don't need. I don't believe in waiting for this to get researched. You know, it could take 20 plus years before we ever, you know, really have it published and understanding it. So how do we meet someone where they're at? I think that's a big, big barrier. And you know, we do have organizations that are starting to put out resources and like people that are writing books and things like that. So resources do exist, but they're not widely known resources. And I do sometimes find that school systems will dismiss it because they're anchoring on, well, what is this? Right versus like what I would challenge someone to say, say and think about is like, okay, yeah, it might not be real in the sense of like diagnostic criteria. And I know if there's a parent listening to this real quick right now who is living this, they're like, what do you mean it's not real? It's so real. Like, I mean in terms of like our systems, they're not seeing it as real, but I think it's just saying like, okay, again, individualize what does your kid need in terms of their IEP or even if they don't have an IEP in terms of accommodations within the classroom. So I think that's a huge barrier. I also find, you know, similarly because of lack, you know, like lack of education making its way into these systems, even these neurodiversity affirming approaches, really big on social media, but they haven't made them their way into the medical and education educational systems. Largely to the point that sometimes like I'm so fortunate I get to collaborate with all these like minded professionals and it's like, oh yeah, people are getting this and then, then I will have a client where I'm collaborating with one of the people on their team and I'm like, oh, the, the large majority still is not getting this yet. Right. It's a bubble. But I think that and so seeing the behavior is something we need to fix or change versus something that we need to better understand so we can support it, so we can provide the right accommodation so we can teach skills and slowing down. So I think that shift hasn't happened, which then makes PDA feel like way out in left field. And then the third thing I already described in terms of, in terms of like the masking presentation that is happening at school and teachers being like, we're just not seeing this.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, the masking piece can really hide that kind of thing at school for sure. Yeah, I think about too, you know, when you're saying it, there's not an official, like in the DSM or in an iep, you know, there's not a box to check for pda, but it doesn't matter. I think sometimes if you call it PDA or you could call it, I don't know, purple dinosaur profile, whatever, if the strategy behind it are something that's going to help kids, not hurt kids and respect them as individuals and give you some ideas, like it's not going to hurt to try and go with some of those ideas. Things change and they take time, like you said, to evolve and become maybe a more evidence based practice or a promising practice. But you think back, I was just reviewing a documentary called Refrigerator Mothers and it was from the 1960s and 70s when Bruno Bettelheim called the reason he thought kids were autistic was because of their cold, uncaring mothers. Of course not parents, mothers in particular. And you think if no one would have thought outside the box and they would have just accepted that as the only explanation, like we wouldn't be where we are now as far as talking about how we look at autism. So I think it's important to just keep an open mind, a growth mindset and kind of look into things. And if it seems like this approach might make sense for a child, like why not? It's not going to hurt. And I think it could be really helpful too.
- [36:19]
C
Yeah. It's interesting though, just, just to say this out loud, people, I think some of the concern is that it will hurt in the sense of like, are we just being permissive and letting these kids do whatever and not, you know, they're not going to actually learn boundaries, they're not going to learn skills. So I hear the fear in it. Like I love what you're saying and I had to overcome this. Even as a clinician, I was trained in a highly, highly evidence based program. Right. Like it was constantly, where's the research? Like cbt, Cognitive behavioral therapy was like the primary modality that I was trained in. And that's because it has like repeated evidence of being effective. Interestingly, it's not always effective for autistic individuals. But I, I, that's a whole nother box we don't need to go into at the moment. But I think that's some of the fear. But where I like was able, once I sat with my own discomfort, right. I had to work through that sit. And sometimes I do still have the question of like, what if I'm wrong? But at the end of the day I would Rather be wrong on this side than wrong on the other side. And so what I mean by that is I would rather wrong in like this approach wasn't the most effective, but I'm meeting that child at a human to human level. I'm seeing them, I'm hearing them, I'm listening to them and saying they value and they matter. And even if my approaches are wrong, there's therapeutic, we, we know this, there's therapeutic, you know, backing to that, that rapport in that relationship. Right. So that's, I'd rather be wrong on that side than saying, okay, let's stick with the research and what we know and use behavioral approach. Like, what if we do learn that this connection building and relationship building is actually way more effective? Well, not only am I wrong in that sense, but then I'm wrong in the fact that like, I, I focus so much on a child's behaviors that I forgot about them as a person.
- [38:25]
A
Yeah. Yes. I love that. That's a really, really great way to look at it. And I think a lot of parents would probably feel really, I don't know, warm to that thought because you want people to like your kids. And like, when kids are challenging with behaviors like my son was, you could tell who didn't like them or want to form a genuine connection with them. So you can never go wrong with connection and trust. Oh, okay. One last question. What advice would you give to families or educators who are thinking like, oh, I think this child, my child, my student, might have a PDA profile kind of going on here. Like, where do I, who do I talk to about this?
- [39:11]
C
Yeah, I think, you know, it on the parent side. And then I'll talk about the educator side. I think for parents to pursue like a diagnostic evaluation and looking for providers who, you know, understand pda, I think that can be really helpful. If that is not, not feasible right now, then I think, you know, ultimately learning more about PDA and the strategies and you know, some of the books that I often recommend, like there's one called Low Demand Parenting by Amanda Diekman that can be a great one. Or even like we were talking about Dr. Ross Green. There's a lot of principles that work there in terms, so it's called the Explosive Child. So the name is interesting, but I think the approaches work a lot. Or I'm drawing a blank Brain Behavior Connection. I think it is by Mona Delahook. I, I, I might be butchering that off the top of my head, but that's another or beyond behaviors, I think it's called or something like that, those are some good resources. But if you can do a diagnostic evaluation with someone who can identify PDA and that high masking autism profile, or at least assessing what else could be going on, that's helpful, I think, you know, in terms of on the educator side, if you're suspecting this, I think start, you know, by opening the conversation with the parent less about that, like, have you heard a pda? Because for some of them, they might not have. For some of them, it might put them on the defense. But more like, what are you seeing works at home? You know, like, how can we collaborate? And then starting that conversation. And then it might be, I, I would do it. And it's funn. This is language we use with PDAers of like, hey, I. I found this thing. It's called pda. Like, I wonder for you if this might fit, you know, if you feel like this explains your child, you know, and just mentioning that the I wonder language is a great strategy with PDAers because you're not telling them what to do, but it's creating curiosity. It's called declarative language. And so I think that's a way to introduce it of like, like, I wonder, you know, it seemed to resonate, but does it for you? And being okay that by bringing it up, a parent might tell you that you're wrong. Because I know there's a delicate balance for educators, but I also think it could be so incredibly validating for that parent and then that starts them down the journey themselves.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah, you're just kind of putting it out there in a wondering way and they can either take it or decide, no, that's not for me. Or it plants a seed that maybe they come back to later at some point.
- [41:55]
C
Exactly.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah. Oh, this has been so good. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Dr. Tay, everybody. You have to go and check out her Instagram account. Tell everyone where to find you.
- [42:08]
C
Yeah, so my Instagram is the period Drperiod Tay. So the Dr. Tay. I also have a podcast which is linked, but it's called evolve with Dr. Taylor. So it's designed. It's a podcast designed for parents of autistic kids or suspected autism. And then if you're interested, you know, in learning more about our clinical services, we're in the process of working to launch a membership as well. My website is Dr. Taylorday.com and you can see where all we can provide services. But we're currently in about 40 states and then the membership will be a non clinical service so I'm so excited.
- [42:46]
A
You'Re starting a membership.
- [42:48]
C
This is so great.
- [42:49]
A
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Well thank you so much and I will link everything in the show notes so everyone can grab it. Thank you for being here.
- [42:57]
C
Thanks so much for having me.
- [42:59]
B
I'm sending a big virtual hug your way because you just finished another episode of the Autism Little Learners podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. If you have had success with any of the strategies that you learned about in this podcast, I would love to hear from you. Send me a DM on Instagram or Facebook. Autismlittlelearners don't forget to grab your free visual support stick starter set by going to autismlittlelearners. Com Visuals and always remember to find.
- [43:42]
A
The good in every day.