#162 Protecting Autistic Joy Through Play With Cari Ebert, SLP

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Autism Little Learners Podcast
Episode #162: Protecting Autistic Joy Through Play With Cari Ebert, SLP
Host: Tara Phillips
Guest: Cari Ebert, Speech-Language Pathologist and Advocate
Release Date: February 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This vibrant, compassionate conversation between host Tara Phillips and guest Cari Ebert explores how to recognize, protect, and celebrate the authentic ways autistic children play. Cari, a nationally known SLP and parent of an autistic adult son, explains why honoring neurodivergent play styles is crucial, how deep interests build genuine connection and communication, and practical strategies for supporting joyful, individualized play environments. Throughout, the focus is on connection over compliance, presuming competence, and bringing flexibility — and fun — into early childhood support for autistic children.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Valuing Autistic Play as Authentic Play

[05:32] – [08:12]

• Cari defines autistic play as authentic, not needing to be fixed or reshaped into neurotypical norms:

  • “Autistic children have brains that function differently. … They learn, communicate, and play differently. There’s no right or wrong way to play because play, by definition, is the spontaneous activity of children. So autistic play is authentic play.” — Cari Ebert [05:59]
  • Emphasizes neurodiversity-affirming practices, moving away from deficit-based or behaviorist approaches that aim to “fix” the child.

• The shift from “appropriate play” to “authentic play” is essential and echoes recent neurodiversity-affirming movements.

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2. Deep Interests: Joy, Connection, and Communication

[08:47] – [16:32]

• Autistic children often have “deep interests” rather than the “wide interests” seen in neurotypical peers.
• Deep interests are a gateway for connection and communication:
  • “Meaningful connection leads to meaningful communication.” — Cari Ebert [09:04]
• Real-life examples:
  • One child’s deep interest was vacuum cleaners; therapy centered around this, leading to gains.
  • Another family bonded with their son through his passion for car washes, even buying a car wash pass to indulge and connect.
• It’s crucial NOT to “squash” these deep interests; embracing them can transform relationships and learning.

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3. Reframing Language & Expectations

[14:20] – [16:32]

• Deficit language like “obsessions” or “fixations” is reframed as “deep interests” or “focusing intently.”
  • “He focuses intently on his own interests. … That will make him an amazing employee one day!” — Cari Ebert [14:20]
• The importance of individualized education (the "I" in IEP): modifications and flexibility are necessary to foster engagement.

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4. Practical Strategies: Creating Environments that Honor Autistic Play

[21:14] – [26:53]

• Fix the environment, not the child:

  • “When a flower doesn’t bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. … When a child doesn’t thrive, you fix the environment.” — Cari Ebert [21:14]

• Cari’s three-step formula: Regulate, Reach, Teach:

  1. Regulate: Meet sensory needs, create a ready state for learning.
  2. Reach: Build connection, prioritize a strong bond over compliance.
  3. Teach: Embed learning in the context of connection and regulation.

• Adapt the classroom: reduce clutter, provide sensory accommodations (lighting, seating), avoid compliance-based postures like "criss-cross applesauce."

• Goals should be activity-flexible and embed seamlessly into child-preferred activities.

  • “Follow their lead— doesn’t mean free-for-all, it means embedding our strategies into what they’re already doing.” — Cari Ebert [24:53]

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5. Responsive, Relationship-Based Teaching (Not Compliance)

[26:53] – [31:21]

• When a child protests or disengages, it’s a prompt for adults to pivot, not for the child to comply:
  • “Those moments are not a reflection on the kid … We have to look at ourselves and say, ‘I need to pivot right now.’” — Tara Phillips [27:33]
• Dysregulation or “challenging behaviors” are forms of communication; the environment or activity must shift.
  • “If a child gets dysregulated, that’s an us problem, not a them problem.” — Cari Ebert [28:00]
• De-pathologizing behaviors: “Behavior is the most accessible form of communication once they have a stress response.” — Cari Ebert [29:35]

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6. Expanding Play, Not Replacing It

[39:48] – [43:30]

• SLPs and teachers should introduce, not impose, new play ideas—broadening “play schemes” rather than demanding a shift.
  • “Expanding their play schemes— not about stopping their current way of playing … Pressure-free environments.” — Cari Ebert [40:53]
• Adult flexibility is key: “Don’t expect them to be mentally flexible— that’s our job.” — Cari Ebert [42:04]
• Practical examples: modeling new ways to use cars or materials without removing or controlling the child’s approach.

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7. Presuming Competence: Memorable Story

[43:50] – [48:13]

• Most unexpected lesson? Always presume competence.
• Cari’s moving story of a minimally speaking child whose “obsession” with letters led to the discovery he was hyperlexic and capable of spelling, identifying, and reading more than anyone realized—once the environment and expectations shifted:
  • “Nobody ever presumed competence. … Because this is a minimally speaking child, they treated him like an infant. … The most important thing I’ve learned is: presume competence with our kids.” — Cari Ebert [48:13]

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8. Honoring Autistic Joy Across the Lifespan

[50:53] – [53:14]

• Autistic children often carry their childhood passions into adulthood; these are not “immature,” they are sources of enduring joy.
• Example of Cari’s son, Aaron, who continues to love letters, labeling, and wild animals as a young adult:
  • “Autistic adults don’t outgrow their childhood passions. … That’s the biggest piece. We’ve gotta honor autistic joy.” — Cari Ebert [53:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We do the best we can until we know better, and when we know better, we do better.” —Cari Ebert, quoting Maya Angelou [04:13]
• “The goal is never to make autistic kids play like neurotypical kids … It's to honor their neurotype, honor their way of being human, and honor their play.” — Cari Ebert [39:24]
• “Info-dumping is an autistic love language.” — Cari Ebert [33:55]
• “Honor autistic joy.” — Cari Ebert [53:14]
• “Don’t ever forget what the I [in IEP] stands for … Individualized.” — Cari Ebert [20:20]
• “When a child gets dysregulated, that’s an us problem. … Fix the environment.” — Cari Ebert [28:00]
• “Presume competence.” — Cari Ebert [48:13]

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Other Practical Takeaways

• Write IEP goals that are open-ended and allow play expansion, not rigid milestones.
• Use visuals/adaptations to subtly introduce new options, never to coerce.
• Share time (“talking stick”) is more valuable for connection than rigid calendar routines.
• "Child-led" does not mean lack of guidance—it's about using what motivates and regulates.
• Adults need mental flexibility; children—not yet having that skill—should not be forced into adult agendas.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Cari’s Definition of Autistic Play: [05:59]
• Deep Interests & Connection: [09:04], [13:36], [16:32]
• Environment Over Compliance: [21:14], [24:53]
• Shifting Adult Perspective: [27:33], [28:00], [29:35]
• Practical Examples: [39:48], [42:04]
• Presuming Competence Story: [43:50], [48:13]
• Honoring Lifelong Joy: [53:14]

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Further Resources & Where to Find Cari

• Website: cariebert.com — Courses, products, and resources for parents and professionals
• “The Learning to Learn Program” (Cari’s book, geared for Birth to Five)
• Free one-page summary: Autistic Play Is Authentic Play (linked by Tara in episode notes)
• Social Media: Instagram/Facebook @cariebertseminars

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Final Message

The core takeaway: Honor autistic joy. Play, deep passions, and authentic interests are foundational to connection, learning, and dignity for autistic children—throughout life. When in doubt, follow the child, presume competence, and find the joy.

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(Summary faithfully preserves the speakers’ language and the upbeat, affirming tone of the episode.)

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the Autism Little Learners Podcast. I'm beyond excited about today's episode because I have a guest that I've looked up to for so long and I can't wait to share her passion and expertise with you. Joining me today is none other than Carrie Ebert. If you don't already know her, Carrie is a nationally recognized pediatric speech language pathologist, speaker and advocate for neurodiversity affirming practices. In this episode, we're diving into an incredible topic, why autistic play is authentic play. Carrie brings such a powerful perspective and I know her insights will leave you feeling inspired and equipped to better support the autistic children in your life. So grab your coffee, tea, or favorite beverage and get ready for a fantastic conversation. Hi, I'm Tara and this is the Autism Little Learners podcast. I am a speech language pathologist with a twist. I've run my own communication based classroom for over two decades and I'm so excited to share actionable tips and strategies for supporting young autistic children. My goal is to help you feel more confident and successful when teaching your autistic child or students at the early childhood level. If you are ready to learn some tried and true strategies that really work, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Before we get started, I want to let you know a little bit more about Kerri. Kerri is a speech language pathologist and a professional speaker who specializes in autism, apraxia and early intervention. She is a proud defender of play based learning for all children and spends her time advocating for autism acceptance and neurodiversity affirming practices. Most importantly, Carrie has an autistic son, allowing her to engage audiences both as a professional and as a parent of a neurodivergent child. Let's jump in and talk to Carrie now. Hey there Carrie. I am so, so thrilled to welcome you to the Autism Little Learners podcast. And I've been wanting to talk to you for so long and I can't believe the day is here. Yay.

[B]

I'm so excited and very thrilled to be here and honored that you asked me to join you today.

[A]

Awesome. Oh, I can't even tell you. It's like when you meet a celebrity or something. And I think a lot of people are probably thinking the same thing watching you like, oh my gosh, Tara. Got to talk to Carrie.

[B]

Well, you're amazing as well. I've been following your work and the things you're doing inspire me on a daily basis. So thank you for that too.

[A]

Thank you. Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself.

[B]

Sure. My name is Carrie Ebert and I am a speech language pathologist and a professional speaker. I live in the Kansas City, Missouri area and I have two neurotypical daughters. One is, my oldest is a nurse, an ICU nurse, and my other daughter is a second grade teacher. And then my husband Jim and I have a 20 year old autistic son. And so our son has taught us an awful lot about neurodiversity affirming practices. And so I'm really excited to share some of our journey with you today. While my son is now 20 years old, my real passion and my real love is in early childhood. So I primarily focus on and research about the birth to 5 population. So tiny humans are my jam.

[A]

Yes, yes. And I love that everything you provide, from tips to resources, and we'll kind of talk about some of those later. But I also love it when you talk about your son because it's such a unique perspective as an SLP to wear the professional hat and the mom hat. And then you have, like I do with the classroom, we have a couple decades we can look back on and see how things changed. And like, oh, I wish I knew then what I know now. And, and I think for both of us, our passion is kind of paying it forward to the younger generation of things that we've learned and the reasons why we feel strongly about what we do.

[B]

Absolutely. And I always say, Maya Angelou's quote is to me, what, what really motivates me and inspires me every day. We do the best we can until we know better, and when we know better, we do better. And so to me, that's what makes professional development is all about, is doing better. Right. When we know better, we have to shift and do better. We can't say things like, well, this is what I was taught in grad school, or this is how I've always done it. Well, that's lovely, but we have to make sure that we are practicing our mental flexibility and really acknowledging when we need to make a shift in our practices.

[A]

So that's true. And, and you saying that, it just made me think of kind of an analogy. Imagine people that are maybe in technology, if they were still relying on the information that they had in college, we'd.

[B]

Still be using typewriters. Right. If people weren't willing to practice their mental, you know, use their mental flexibility and have forward thinking and reflect and refine. That's what I talk a lot about is you have to reflect on what you were Taught and what you currently think about things, you have to reflect, then you have to unpack any biases you might have, Right? And then you have to refine your process, your process, your practice. So it's all. Everything we do every single day should start with reflection and then refinement, reflect and refine. That's what it's all about.

[A]

Perfect. I love it. Okay, so today we're going to talk about a topic that I think is so interesting and beautiful at the same time, and that is autistic play is authentic play. And you're the perfect person to explain what that is. So how would you define autistic play and why is it essential to recognize it as authentic play?

[B]

Well, first we have to all kind of be on the same page and understand what autism is. And so the way I like to explain it is that autistic children have brains that function differently. Right? Autistic children are not broken or defective. They're not in need of being fixed. So when we understand that they have a different operating system, that they have a brain that functions differently, then we can really understand that. Autistic children often acquire their milestones differently, they learn differently, they process sensory input differently, they communicate and acquire language differently, they often move their bodies differently, and they certainly play differently. And so we have to understand that autistic children often play differently from allistic children. And if everybody doesn't know what allistic means, it's kind of the new term for not autistic. So we talk about allistic children as being not autistic. We also sometimes refer to them as neurotypical children. But we know that autistic children play differently from allistic children. And the thing to understand is there's no right or wrong way to play because play, by definition, is the spontaneous activity of children. So if that's the definition, then that's why I always say autistic play is authentic play. Because what I was taught when I was in school, and you know, when I say to my son something like, oh, yeah, when I was in college, and my son will say, oh, you mean back in the 1900s? Like, yeah, back in the 1900s, right. Doesn't that make me sound like ancient? But back in the 1900s, what I was taught was that we needed to teach autistic children to play appropriately with toys, right? That there was a wrong way or there was a right way to play. So the message we're trying to send as neurodiversity affirming providers is that there is no right or Wrong way to play. And therefore autistic play is authentic play. So if an autistic child finds great joy in lining up objects, then that play is authentic. If they enjoy flapping and spinning and making joyful noises, then that play is authentic. So that's all I'm getting at when I say autistic play is authentic play is that an autistic child's play doesn't need to be fixed.

[A]

That is such a great explanation. I don't know if you know about Pamela Wolfberg, but she has, back in the 90s, the 1900s, she developed a program called Integrated Playgroups. And she kind of mentored me in the classroom. And so I had integrated playgroups for my students. But she always talked about play being joyful, intrinsically motivated, and kind of flowing, you know, like it changes. And that really aligns with your. Your definition too.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I think we all know that deep interests take the center stage for autistic kids, and that shows in their play. In autistic play. How can, like, parents and professionals celebrate and incorporate these passions into playtime?

[B]

Well, I think, like you kind of touched on there, a child's play is always going to be individualized based on their interests and based on their sensory preferences. And so when you know a child's deep interest, what it allows you to do is to build a meaningful connection with the child. And here's for me, as a speech language pathologist, to me, this is the most salient point, is when you establish a meaningful connection with a child, it allows you to then establish meaningful communication. So to me, meaningful connections leads to meaningful communication. And so it's just such a powerful kind of cycle to think about. When you have meaningful communication with the child, then it strengthens your connection with them. So isn't that fascinating? Connection builds communication, meaningful communication then cycles back and strengthens the bond or the connection that you have with that child. So to me, communication and authentic connections, meaningful connections, those kind of play, you know, in the same cycle together. And so that's why knowing the child's deep interests are extremely important. And autistic children don't necessarily always have a deep interest in maybe the same things as neurotypical children or allistic children do. And so that's why it's very important that you have, you know, you spend time observing the child in their natural environment to see what kinds of not only toys or objects they play with, but what kinds of sensory activities bring them joy. Right? Because it's not autistic play isn't always going to be about store bought toys. You know, I've been an SLP, I'm in my 30th year now and I'm telling you that I can name so many deep interests. I had one kiddo, his deep interest was vacuum cleaners. We would spend every single early intervention session with the vacuum cleaner at the family's home and we built amazing skills with a vacuum cleaner. But the vacuum cleaner was present in every session. I had another kiddo. His deep interest was car washes. And when I was talking to the family about how important it is to follow their child's lead and acknowledge and build on their interests because they had been told to, he was obsessed with car washes. You shouldn't ever bring it up. You should not encourage him to, you know, play with or talk about car washes. Well, when I convinced them to be more affirming in their approach, every visit when I would come, we would watch YouTube videos of car washes. And I'm telling you, I pulled more language from that kid watching YouTube videos than you could ever imagine. The family was so excited by his progress that they bought a monthly car wash pass to the car wash down the street. And they went to the car wash literally every single day, sometimes twice a day. So this family had the cleanest cars in the neighborhood. But more importantly than that, they were building for the first time ever, ever, a meaningful connection with their child. They were bonding with their child. But up until that point, they were trying to, you know, really get him to stop focusing on the things that are of interest to him. They were trying to squash those deep interests. So that's why. And one more kiddo, I just, I always remember this kiddo, his deep interest was smoke detectors. So I am telling you, this kid had more knowledge about brands of smoke detectors. And if him and his family ever went to a new store or a new restauran, the family learned to call ahead, talk to someone in maintenance or the manager. Hey, my autistic son really likes smoke detectors. So when we come to your establishment, he's going to want a tour of where you keep, you know, when were they last checked, who you know, and all this stuff. They build amazing connections with businesses in the community because of their son's deep interest. So that's what I mean when I say it's really powerful, right? It doesn't matter if it's a unique interest, it's a deep interest. So one more thought, my son taught me this. Neurotypical children tend to have wide interests, meaning they like lots of things. Right? So if you've got this three year old autistic child, maybe she really likes, you know, Disney princess, not autistic, a neurotypical child, maybe she likes Disney princesses and she likes, you know, unicorns and she likes ponies and she likes bluey and she likes Barbies and she's got like 10 things that, you know, the parents would say she's interested in these. But for an autistic child, their interests are not usually wide. They're usually very, very deep. So that's why I don't call them special interests or whatever. I call them deep because my son, when he was 3, his deep interest, and it still is to this day, wild animals. He loves wild animals. He loves letters. Letters have always been a big thing. But like my son knows more about wild animals than you could ever hope to know in your lifetime. Okay. And so deep interest, this, not many interests. Interest, not wide interest. So that's kind of why I've always called them deep interest.

[A]

That is a really great way to look at it. Especially when you're looking at neurotypical kids having wide interests. And then the deep interest for our autistic kids. And it makes so much sense because it's kind of all encompassing. And, and I remember those days when people are like, we got to get rid of that. Don't talk about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And not that, I mean that's still occurring and that's the advice. Yeah, exactly. And I think when you really follow and you embrace those deep interests, that's where some of the magical, actively engaged learning can happen along with building a positive relationship, like an authentic positive relationship.

[B]

Yeah. And one thing to think about is instead of, you know, when we stop using negative deficit driven language like a obsessions or fixations and instead we use something, you know, like deep interest or we say the child focuses intently on their own interests. That's how I now that's the trait I use to describe an autistic child. Rather than saying that they are difficult to engage or that the child is in his own world. How often do we hear that about young autistic children? He's difficult to engage. He ignores other people, he's in his own world. Well, instead I reframe that language and I say the child focuses intently on his own interests. So let me tell you, as a parent of a now 20 year old autistic child who is going through vocational rehab so that he can now get a job, you know, with a job coach, he's going to make somebody an amazing employee. Because if we can find a job that my son is interested in, and his number one trait is that he focuses intently on his own interests, then you've got to understand that when Aaron starts a job, he is not going to be, unlike the other employees, distracted by his phone or distracted by what the other employees are doing or goofing off. Because my son is. Is wired to focus intently on the thing he is most interested in. So that's why we are spending all this time with voc rehab, getting him a job that he is interested in. Because then he is gonna do an amazing job there.

[A]

So that's so awesome. Is it anything having to do with wild animals?

[B]

You know, he did have an internship at the zoo, and while he loved it, he did not like the heat. And so after his internship at the zoo, cause most of it's obviously outside.

[A]

He.

[B]

He said, mom, I think I want to work somewhere indoors and somewhere where it's quiet. And so he is learning to self advocate. And he knows, like, he doesn't do well. He worked at a grocery store was another job he had. And while it was better because it was indoors, it was loud at times. And so he, like, his dream job is in a library. That's what he's decided. He wants to work in a library. Problem is libraries don't need a lot of employees. So we're working on trying to find something. But yeah, he would love to work with animals if we could figure out how to make that happen indoors. So we're working on it.

[A]

A cool indoor space.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Okay. I love, I love hearing stories about your son. Whenever you share that, whether it's Instagram stories or whatever, I, I love it because it's, it's that real life experience you have, his lived experience combined with yours as a parent. And it just gives you so much great insight. When we're talking deep interests, I have to share the story with you because I don't. We haven't talked yet until today, so I haven't been able to tell you this, but way back when I was at the elementary level and I was a newer, newer teacher, newer slp, and I learned really quickly about deep interests and how they can help you. Because I had these twins in my class who were not potty trained and they were like second grade, and their mom was like, gosh, I really, really, really want them potty trained and nothing's working. And she's right. None of the traditional methods were working. So I said, okay, what do they really love. Okay. They love country singers. Okay. How am I going to merge these? I don't know. I thought about it for a while, and then I'm like, I'll make a story. And from the waist down, I cut out pictures from Board maker of peeing in the potty. You know, like, the yellow going into the potty. And then I went to Google Images and took pictures of country singers from the waist up. Glued them on, like, literally cut and paste glued them on. They. The day I showed them that story, like, they wouldn't normally just look through a book. They're, like, painting through frantically back to the beginning page through. Back to the beginning page through. They peed in the potty that day. It was after that many years. It was like magic. So then I'm like, okay, we're incorporating everything or country singers into everything. So they weren't tracing their name at that point. And we had worked with ot we're trying to strengthen their little fine motor muscles. Well, the day I did the dots to make my own little tracing activity and wrote Willie Nelson, guess who suddenly could grasp the marker, whatever writing utensil. And they were attempting to trace. So everything. Math. Give me three Willie Nelsons. Willie Nelson's always an example. We had a variety, but it was amazing. And so that where like, not if you're a teacher listening. Yes. It's just a ton of work to do that. Not every student is going to need that.

[B]

No.

[A]

But if you have students that aren't engaging in your curriculum that you usually use for 80, 90% of your class, and they're not engaged, look at their deep interests and see what you can modify like that.

[B]

So I'll give you a quick example, too. When my son was in, like, middle school age, late elementary, middle school age, and they're working on, like, capitalization and punctuation. And so they were having Aaron, you know, all the students copy sentences from a book. You know that. And then fixing the punctuation, the capitalization. And Aaron was not interested. Fine motor skills are hard for Aaron. He doesn't like to write. So I then asked in the IEP meeting, what if you had him write sentences about wild animals or about Mario Kart? And they're like, well, the curriculum says this. And I'm like, yeah, but I understand if it's about the content and understanding what he's read, but this is about punctuation and capitalization, so it shouldn't matter what he's writing. So if you really want Aaron to participate, then make the activity relevant and meaningful to him and then he will participate. And guess who was very excited to write sentences when they got to be about kangaroos and they got to be about Mario and Luigi. So same thing, right? So, yeah, as teachers, as therapists, that's why we need to have modifications to the curriculum. My son is on an iep. Don't ever forget what the I stands for. Individualized. So, yes, it's more work, but this is what we signed up for, right, when we decided we were going to support students and children with disabilities. So, yeah, love it.

[A]

You can just take the mic and drop it right now, Carrie. I is for individualized.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

They have the iep.

[B]

That's right. That's right. I think people sometimes forget that, that they think that every kid on an iep, that they all should learn the same way and at the same time. And that's not why they're on an iep. That's the procedure. Precise reason why they are on the IEP is because it doesn't work for them to do this, you know, type of curriculum that every other student is doing.

[A]

So. Yep, perfect. Yes. Okay, so what are some practical ways in your mind to create play environments that honor autistic play? Because we always get questions like, you know, what toys would be great? And there are some in general that that many autistic kids seem to like, but, like, how can you create that environment and support that connection and growth?

[B]

Yeah. There's this quote that I love and I can't even tell you who it's by, so I can't cite it right now. But it goes something like this. When a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. So I always shift that to when a child doesn't thrive, you fix the environment in which they live, learn and play, not the child. We've spent decades trying to fix, quote, unquote, broken children through behaviorist teaching methods. And we now understand that, oh, we need to stop trying to fix children because children aren't broken. Instead, what we need to do is fix the environment. And so it's really about environmental accommodations. So I have a little formula. It's a three step formula. And this is how I create amazing learning environments for all children, but specifically for autistic children. And it's this regulate, reach teacher. You see, first you have to regulate the child's nervous system. Okay. A child has to be in a ready state for learning before they are going to be able to participate in any kind of therapy. Session or a learning activity. So first it's regulate, and then you have to reach. We always say you have to reach a child before you can teach a child. So this is all about connection. It's about reaching them. It's about building that meaningful relationship. And then it's teach. So it's regulate, reach, teach. If you want a different way to say it, it's regulation, connection, instruction. So it has to go in that order too. So you have to consider and meet the child's sensory needs first and foremost. There is nothing else that comes before that. So there may need to be modifications made in the environment. A lot of the early childhood classrooms I go into as a consultant, they're overwhelming. There's so much stuff everywhere. There's stuff hanging from the ceilings. There's lots of ambient noise going on, you know, and so sometimes what we have to do is we have to reduce or minimize not only the noise, but the visual noise or the visual clutter as well. And so, you know, fixing the environment is really where it's at. And, you know, dimming, having dimming dimmed lights and having flexible seating options, not forcing kids to sit crisscross applesauce. I mean, that is my biggest pet peeve in the world. I don't even know what applesauce has to do with sitting. But forcing children to sit crisscross applesauce is not honoring their nervous system needs. I find the majority of young children, especially those with sensory differences, they like to sit on their haunches if they're gonna sit, you know, up on their knees, almost where they can kind of sit on their heels and kind of bounce back and forth. But my son rarely sat as a toddler. And so when I would read books out loud to him, I didn't force him to sit. I read no matter what he was doing. And if I was interesting enough, and if I picked a book that was interesting enough and had a sing song melody, like, you know, chicka chicka boom boom, that was about letters. That was the very first book that he was really drawn to. He was going to come over to me, and it's okay if he's standing. It's okay if his body isn't. So moving away, shifting away from whole body listening, you know, trying to get away from these. Choosing power and control. Moving away from compliance based classrooms and compliance based therapy sessions is really how we create play environments that are going to be developmentally supportive of autistic children.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well said. You made me think of. I had a student teacher A long time ago named Scott. And he intuitively had what you're talking about. Like, he would be working at a table with a kid. Maybe it wasn't going well. They maybe were protesting. And all of a sudden I see him, like, under the table. Like, he was okay with shifting. Like, we're gonna both just be under the table and do whatever activity saves the relationship, stops the power struggle. And I'll never forget that. And that was, you know, a long time ago, but it has stuck with me. He was super flexible, and I. I knew he'd be really good at what he did.

[B]

Absolutely. One thing that then, like, as a therapist, one of the things that I encourage other therapists to do is to make sure or just IEP goals. Like, when you think about writing goals, whether they're therapy goals or whether they're like, educational IEP goals, you want to write your goals that can be addressed during any activity at all. You don't want to write goals that are specific to, like, oh, the child needs to, you know, string beads, for example, because then that means you have to play with beads. Well, there are ways to build fine motor skills or dexterity or the pincer grasp that doesn't involve stringing beads. So that's why it's very important to write goals that allow you to follow the child's lead. That we actually have research, and I'll be sure to share the link with you. It's 2023 research from you, et al, that found that when allowed to choose the how and when of play activities, autistic children are just as motivated to engage with adults as a listed kid. So we have research. I mean, I've known this all along. You follow their lead. Okay? Now, please understand, child led doesn't mean free for all. Doesn't mean wild west doesn't mean no boundaries, no rule. Like, I think some people get confused and think child led just means let kids do whatever they want. That's not what it means. It just means if the child is playing with a dump truck, I'm going to join in the play with the dump truck and embed my strategies to support those goals into the dump truck. I'm not going to say, hey, let's go over here and play potato head instead, because this is more important. That's where you lose autistic kids. There is something really interesting about autistic kids. They have this innate ability to smell your agenda from a mile away. And if they can tell that you're coming in to play with them with an agenda they are either going to elope, they are going to just turn away from you. My son would literally just get up and walk away from every therapist or teacher who walked in with an agenda. So don't come in with an agenda. You need to know what your therapy strategies are or your learning teaching strategies are. But you should be able to embed them into whatever the child is currently doing. And if you can't, then follow their deep interest. Right. Then use something. A deep interest like we just talked about.

[A]

Yes. Yes. It makes me think of something I tell people a lot too, which is, let's say this happens all the time. A student comes to you to work at a table, and some, you know, maybe 80% of the time they are fine sitting at the table doing an activity that you have, have out. But let's say when they come and they're protesting and you know, if, if this protesting continues, they're out of there. I, I've said so many times to teachers, how many of you have had a student that lasts 0.5 seconds? They see what you have and they're out. And they don't. They don't. It's not defiance.

[B]

No. Really interested.

[A]

They're not interested. And so I say those moments are not a reflection on the kid. There are. We have to look in ourselves and say, okay, I need to pivot right now. I need to switch. What? Either what, Let go of what I had planned, the potato head, and we're gonna switch, give a choice or find something that you know they like and then do the therapy or the learning around that.

[B]

You nailed it. You nailed it. Because when a child gets dysregulated, that's an us problem, it's not a them problem. So what we have done for decades is blame the child. Right? Well, what we're supposed to do now, what we're trying to do now is look inward and go, okay, what is it about our activity, about our approach, about our environment that is causing this child to dysregulate, to turn and walk away and say, I am not participating in this. See, that is an us problem. You nailed it, Tara. That's exactly what it is. But it's so much easier to make it a them problem to say, well, this child is naughty, non compliant, refuses to participate. You see, when we place the blame on the child, then we don't have to do anything about it. We're just like, like, do you know how many phone calls I got my son's career as a student? How many times? Well, Aaron is Having a rough day. That's a you problem. But you're trying to make it a him problem. The kid is three years old. He's autistic. He's dysregulated. He doesn't have full executive function skills yet. You do. You have a fully developed frontal lobe. So use your executive function skills. Practice your mental flexibility and shift. Do what? That's what. To me, school readiness is wrong when we say school readiness. The child has to be ready for school. Baloney. The school has to be ready for my child. That is what school readiness is, which is why we pulled our kid from public school and homeschooled him for many, many years because the school was not ready for our child.

[A]

And again, it comes back to the.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Comes back to the iep like, we have to individualize to the child. And I think it's so. I get a lot of questions, too, and you probably do, too. What do I do with the student who hit or spits or.

[B]

Figure out the why behind it. That's all it is. You have to figure out the why behind the behavior. I'm not. I mean, all our kids who are dysregulated hit, pull, hair, spit, punch, cry, bang their head. You know, so. Okay, that's. That's. So just know that when a child is dysregulated, the. The most accessible form of communication is behavior. That's the only. So when someone says, use your words, and a child is dysregulated, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. It's like telling someone who's upset to calm down. That's not how you calm down. Right. And so behavior is the most accessible form of communication that our kids have once they have a stress response. So our job is to create a learning environment that is not stressful so that our kids don't get dysregulated with stress response. And what are stress responses? Fight, flight, Freeze, Fawn. Right. There's four stress responses. Autistic kids. Any kid who gets dysregulated is going to experience one of those. So. Yeah, okay, I'll calm down now, Tara. I get real worked up. Sorry.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

Well, it's not that. You just nailed it when you said that like it's an us problem. It's not the kids problem. So tired of people blaming autistic children for being dysregulated. Okay. They can't help that their nervous system is dysregulated. That's an us problem.

[A]

Fix the environment and you add in with young autistic kids, the differences with communication, interoception, sensory, like, all of these things. So that's the why part. And I think everything in those moments always leads back immediately to regulation. Like you said, connection. Okay. Every time we have, like, this power struggle, let's think, how can we reconnect with them at some point when they're not in that stress response? But.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And really looking, trying to find out the why. Because otherwise just. You're just, like, spinning your wheels. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I have to. I have to say, I have to tell you one more story. This one I haven't talked about a lot, but I just found an old VHS video, and it had on it a playgroup that I was doing with one of my former students who is now 31 years old, but he was in my son's class. So my son was in this playgroup, and they had given us. His parents gave us permission to visit video it. So, Carrie, I need to send you this video.

[B]

Oh, I would love it.

[A]

He was back then the word obsessed with the log ride at the Mall of America. So, you know, where you're in the log and it goes down the water, the chute. He talked about that all the time. And, you know, for peers, it was kind of like, they were nice about it and, like, acknowledged it, but they didn't want to, like, talk about it a ton. So in his playgroup with, like, three kids that would come weekly in this integrated playgroup, we talked together and said, okay, you know, he loves the log ride. What could we do with that in our playgroup? That made it totally okay for him to be talking about it all the time. Be the expert, be the lead. And so we literally took out big boxes. They spent a couple sessions painting them brown. And then we made up, like, the other kids were kind of the leads on. What else do we need? Okay, tickets. We need tickets to the log ride. Someone's like, oh, we need spray bottles so we can spray them with water, like, because you get wet on the log ride. And then we put these. I checked whenever the. There was, like, an hour where the gym was free and open. So we went and put these boxes on scooters and then one suit. Well, my son was like, the puller. So whoever was in the front of the log ride would hold, like, a jump rope, and it would go around my son's waist and he would run. And so they're literally, like, having the time of their lives, all of them on this log ride, like, whipping around and then they fall off the. The scooters and they have to go put it back together. And there's a couple people chasing them, spraying them with water. And it was like the best thing ever, ever. And every single one of those kids had fun. And, you know, they're going back to class telling their peers, like, how awesome this was and Willie's log ride. And I love that. Absolutely incredible.

[B]

That's amazing. So one thing that is very important to know is that info dumping is an autistic love language. And so when an autistic child wants to tell everything about log rides or Metallica or whatever it is, that's what we do, is we build it in. So, like, what a beautiful example, right? Because that just means when they share with you, that they want to connect with you. That's their way of saying, hey, I want you to know about this thing that I love so much, right? So one of the things we did with our son is like, let's say when Jim was homeschooling Aaron or when Aaron was in, you know, I'll give you the example at church. So we wanted Aaron to be able to go to Sunday school, but he couldn't handle being in, you know, with all the other kids. So the pastor's wife said, I'll do one on one with Aaron. So when Aaron would go in with Ms. Becky, he would just want to tell her all about wild animals, like, all day long. And so she's like, I just really don't want to cut him off. And I really. So here's what we, Erin and Ms. Becky and I, we came up with a plan. Erin, when you come in, you tell Miss Becky three things about wild animals, and Miss Becky will tell you three things about Jesus. And then you tell Miss Becky three things about animals, and she'll tell you three things about Jesus. And guess what? It worked. Okay? And so that's, you know, that was our way of saying, hey, we don't want to squash this completely. Like, you know, but there's also the. The teacher, right, wants to also be able to. To share information. So I know this is a little off off topic, but one of the things I wish they did more in early childhood at circle time is share time. It doesn't have to be show and tell, but share time. Like that is when kids get to share. And you can set a timer, I use a talking stick. That's where I take one of those paint stirrers. And I just use a Sharpie marker, and on it I write talking stick. And so that way other kids can't talk over them. So you hand the talking stick to my son, and Aaron gets to speak for three, two to three minutes, whatever it is, about what he did this weekend, about, you know, his birthday party or about wild animals, and then he passes the talking stick to another child and they talk about log rides, and then you pass it. I mean, honestly, this is really how kids learn about public speaking, which is the greatest fear of every human being on the planet. Right. But also it's how you build connections and you start to figure out you like nascar. I like NASCAR too. And so you start seeing kids who then maybe weren't friends until share time, and now they have something in common. So. So I wish we could bring. I think share time is more important than calendar time could ever possibly be in a million years. So I wish we could shift a little bit and move toward more of that conversational type, circle time.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. I think that is such an awesome idea. And everyone loves it. When you share something and you get a chance to share something, and then someone else validates that or you find a connection, it's that it's amazing. Awesome idea.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And when you're talking about Aaron, you know, he's an adult now, but thinking back to his childhood, what did you learn about autistic play through watching and supporting him? And how did it shape you as an slp?

[B]

Well, when my son was a toddler, so he was first diagnosed back in 2007. So you have to understand, the climate of autism was different back then. Back then, they were looking for a cure. We thought you could treat autism and make kids somehow not autistic, you know, so back then, things were a little different. But the majority of professionals were concerned about Aaron's lack of purposeful play. And so I still, to this day, I think about how everybody was concerned that Aaron learned how to play appropriately with the Fisher Price barn. Like, this was the be all, end all to everything. And honestly, I think back as an slp, I used to be pretty preoccupied with the Fisher Price barn, too. And so Aaron never had any interest in farm animals. Farm animals were not his gig. Like, that was not he. He didn't care about pigs and cows and horses and sheep. They weren't interesting. Barns were not relevant to him. But gosh darn it, every therapist and every teacher, that's what they wanted, was for him to play appropriately with that darn barn. So if I wish I would have known then what I know now, and I would have suggested, hey, if you want to use the barn as a receptacle, like, that's fine. Because Aaron would love to take his sorting bears. Aaron's favorite thing when he was a toddler were these little sorting bears. We have a whole bucket of them. So Aaron might want to line the barn with farm animals or put the farm animal or not the farm animals, the bears in the barn or put them in the silo or put the. The bears in the tractor and drive them around. If he could just get rid of the sheep and replace him with his bears, I promise you, you're gonna see something different. Right. Or maybe Mario. He had all the Mario characters. He would love to put these and have them go night night. He's not putting the sheep to bed, though. He doesn't care about the dang sheep. Right. So that's what I think. Back to Aaron's favorite thing. When he was about two and a half years old, he loved not only the bears, but his other thing was hot wheels cars. But he didn't drive them around. He lined them up. And specifically in window sills. And so he would line. Go through every windowsill, and there would be hot wheels cars and sometimes bears. And sometimes it was a pattern. Two cars, one bear. Two cars, one bear. Like, nobody had to teach my kid how to do abab pattern or a, a, b, a, a, b pattern. My kid had that figured out before his second birthday. Okay. And so that's why I always say, Erin has been my greatest teacher, to really help me understand that the goal is never to make autistic kids play like, neurotypical kids. Right. That's. That's not the goal. Okay. The goal is really for us to honor their neurotype, honor their way of being human and honor their play. And then provide support services and accommodations to help them be able to, you know, learn and develop new skills.

[A]

Yeah. And when you're saying, like, provide support and accommodations, things, like, one of the things I created was and hear me out on this, like, one step play and two step play. Introducing visually options. Because I find found a lot of with of my students, it's not like you introduce it and say, I want you to play like this. And we're going to go through each of the themes.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

But if, you know, they love cars, you could model and introduce like, oh, the car goes down the ramp, you know, and the visual would just be like a backup, you know, to kind of see what's going on. But we had a student once who she had. She would take cars and she'd shake them. And we weren't trying to get her to stop shaking them, but maybe broadening her horizons on options and whatever ones take, take. And if they don't and she's not interested, we don't push it or hand over hand make her do it right. So we introduced the down the ramp, one step simple. And it was just a. Like a slide, almost like a freestanding thing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Modeled it once. The amount of laughter, like the kind of laughing belly laughing that makes you laugh and almost cry along with it. She discovered something new. It was like an offshoot of what she already liked. And so I think that's what I would encourage people to do too is like you can sprinkle things out there, introduce things and broaden horizons.

[B]

It's about expanding their play schemes. It's not about stopping their current way of playing or even thinking about changing it. It's called expanding the child's play schemes. That's literally what I write. Like that is is oftentimes a goal that we have because autistic kids tend to get stuck in a loop of perseveration where they sometimes just can't get off that loop. They find safety in the familiar. So playing with the same toys in the same ways is very calming, very organizing and very regulating. So that's why we allow them to play that way. But through our. When you become a safe adult, that's someone who does not put demands on a child, but rather models and expands play games with no pressure at all. These are pressure free environments. That is exactly what we do. And that is a developmentally supportive environment. So yeah, yeah.

[A]

I didn't want you to get the wrong idea like okay, you must play like this. But the visuals are just to help. And I love how you said expanding play schemes.

[B]

Yeah, that's really exactly it.

[A]

And, and just remember it's like what do people say? Like you throw spaghetti on the wall and some things will, some will stick and some won't. So honoring the ones that don't stick, it's okay if they don't want to play with the sheep in the farm, you know.

[B]

And that's where being. Where being mentally flexible as the adult in the room is so important. You shouldn't expect them to be mentally flexible. They don't have that skill yet. That's a very high level executive function skill. But that's why we want to show them different ways to play. Like here, one of my favorites. If the child, like when Aaron would line up his toy cars, I'm Never going to try to stop that. But what I would do is I would grab one of our giant board books and I would just lay it like this. And then I would take my own car, never touching his cars, and I would drive it up the mountain and down the mountain and through the tunnel. He was mesmerized by that. So now what he would do is line his cars up, then go get a book, whether I was there or not. And he would drive all his cars up and down and through the tunnel. So that's expanding his play scheme. It wasn't forced on him. There were no. I didn't withhold anything from him to make him do it. I was not trying to coerce compliance. It has nothing to do with that. That it is about expanding play schemes in a child centered way.

[A]

Beautiful. Beautiful. And then when you talk about, like you said, writing goals, that would be such an easy way to write. More vague goal, you know, like not he'll play this, this, and this. But he'll expand from two play schemes to X amount.

[B]

Exactly. Or will will play with preferred toys in three new ways. Do you know what I mean? So I can write a goal like that, which is that they're going to play with what they're going to play with, but through model. And you know, we want them to start expanding their play scheme. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I love your perspective on that. So good. Okay, we are almost. Almost to the end. I think I came up with like too many questions. I'm sorry. No, we're good.

[B]

You pick one. I'm ready for all of them.

[A]

I'm going to pick one. And this one's kind of fun. Like, what's the most unexpected or delightful thing an autistic child taught you about play?

[B]

Okay. You picked a really good one. Okay, so. Okay, so I've had to think a lot about this question. And I will tell you. I think the most important thing that I have learned is that we need to presume competence. Okay? So I want to tell you about a little friend that I support in Mississippi. And the family comes to Kansas City one week a year. I go to Mississippi one week a year. Otherwise everything is done via zoom. Okay, so this little guy has deep interest in letters. Okay. And he was currently receiving services at a university there in Mississippi. So it was like a clinic, you know, like a clinic university. And they were in his speech therapy sessions. They had locked all the letter toys away, the letter puzzle, all the blocks with letters. Because they said he was obsessed with them. And so this mom then found me and said, hey, can you come? These therapists have agreed to have you kind of mentor them, right? So I go in and I say, well, I would love to just do a therapy session with him, and you guys can just observe. And they were like, okay, perfect. So I said, first thing I need you to do is unlock all the cabinets. They literally locked all the cabinets where with the toys in him that they thought he was obsessed with. So we gave him full access to all the toys in the therapy room. Right? They unlocked the cabinets. So what he does is he runs right for the cabinet where he knows his favorite ABC puzzle had been in lockdown. Right? So he pulls this puzzle out, he sits on the floor, and then he begins to play with it. Okay, now, you've got to understand, I'm placing no demands on him at all at this time. He occasionally will kind of hesitantly look at me repeatedly to see if I'm going to snatch the letters away or if I'm going to put some demand on him. Because he's not used to an adult just being present in silence. That is parallel play. He's never really had anything like this happen. I, of course, don't snatch any letters away. I don't put any demands on him. So he starts to play in his preferred way. I'm silently supporting him, right? Every now and then, he'll pick up a letter, and he'll say the letter name. And so he might say B. And then what he does is he would look at me to see, like, what's my reaction. So what I would do is repeat it back. He'd say B, and I would say B. So we're doing this back and forth, okay? So we're several letters in. He picks a letter up, and he says, m. And I say, m is for Mom. Now, if this change had upset him, I would have stopped, right? I would have gone back to just saying M or whatever. But he was pretty intrigued by this. His response was epic. So, Tara, what he did. I say, m is for mom. He pauses briefly, kind of thinking about what he's going to do. He jumps up and he runs and he puts the M on his mom's lap. He grabs her cheeks and smiles as he is. You can tell he is super proud of his accomplishment. Then what he does, he comes back, he grabs another letter, and he says, r. He looks right at me, and I say, r is for rug. He jumps up, and he runs over, and he puts the R on the rug by the door, and he says, r is for rug. He steals my language using delayed echolalia. This is a child who is minimally speaking at best. They say he's non speaking. Speaking, okay? But he says, r is for rug. He is super excited. Mom says he's never combined words before. They've never heard him do this, right? So he continues, he comes back, he holds up the letter D, and I say, d is for door, right? Then he picks up the B and he says, b is for book. We all about fell on the floor. This kid is able to read because he's hyperlexic. Nobody knew this. Nobody had presumed. Presumed competence. His mom took the cue and goes, she's like, mesmerized. She goes, q is for quiet. You know what he did?

[A]

No.

[B]

We are all like, this kid is three years old, okay? We are all, like, freaking out. So everyone in the room is gasping at this child's knowledge. But because this is a minimally speaking child, nobody has ever presumed competence. They assumed that he didn't know much. They treated him. They infantilized him, treated him like an infant. You know, he's trying to say, I'm really interested in reading. I'm really interested in letters. And everybody was denying him that. This is what happens when compliance based interactions are used. When you decide, we're not playing with letter toys, we're playing with this potato head or we're playing with whatever this toy is, you've got to understand that the autistic child's natural instinct for demand avoidance kicks in, the nervous system shuts down, and then boom, here we get to dysregulation, or what most professionals want to call challenging behavior. Behavior. So the most important thing I've learned is presume competence with our kids.

[A]

Okay. I'm so glad that I chose that question, because me too. Chefs kiss to you. I mean, love it. And the people are probably like, you're a miracle worker. And it's like, no, you can do this shift. It's the shift in how you approach things.

[B]

And what I feel very blessed is that it was intuitive in me. I was doing this type of therapy for everybody before neurodiversity affirming practices was even a thing. This is why my son never went to behavior therapy. My son has had very little direct therapy because I've always felt like this more relationship based learning was more appropriate. And it's always been very intuitive to me. What I want to do is make sure our early childhood educators and therapists are being taught how to do this right, because it's not intuitive for everyone. For Scott, you mentioned a student teacher named Scott. It was intuitive for him. Right. So that's what we know is for some people, it's intuitive. For most, it is not. And it needs to be explicitly taught.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, 100% explicitly taught. And I find that when I do teach teachers or SLPs about similar kinds of strategies, like relationship based, I always tell them, like, this is going to take pressure off of you to just be more natural and not be thinking of, like, the outcome all the time. Or like, we got to do this so we can achieve this. Like, it lets you be in the relationship. And it. I said, if your administration wants to know, just say that. I told you we have to do relationship first.

[B]

Write a goal about positive connections between children and teachers. I mean, that's the thing. You can actually write goals for that. In my autism program, which surely I have a copy of my book here. You know, one of my sections is on play, and I have a whole section on goals for how to write play goals for autistic young children. Okay. So this is called the Learning to learn program. This is what I wrote during the pandemic when I couldn't work because you couldn't leave your house. So I'm like, I'm finally going to write the program that I know works because I've been using it for over two decades. So, yeah, you can write goals for play and you can write goals for connection. You can write goals for sensory. Everything doesn't have to be like academic focus. There have to be these foundational skills before you can address academics. And regulation, connection and communication are always the first goals we should be addressing with autistic young children.

[A]

Yeah. And those kind of align with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You have these foundations, regulation, connection. You know, you need these in place, all of that. Yeah, Yeah. I love this. Okay, out of the. Choose one more question. Why don't you choose one that we missed?

[B]

Okay, so I'll just. One more about Aaron. How about that? You had asked me what was Aaron's favorite way to play, and I did allude a little bit to it. You know that he liked to line things up. Okay, Absolutely. But he also had such a deep interest in letters. Okay. And so he loves to. He carries around a basket of letters he has for probably 15 years of his life. They're foam puzzle piece letters, you know, and he doesn't want the puzzle anymore. He just wants the pieces. So he has the like, six sets of letters. Because when he watches Wild Kratz, which is a PBS show about wild animals, which he's been watching for probably 15 years. Whatever episode he chooses, he watches one episode after supper every night, a 30 minute episode. And he takes his basket of letters and he spells all the animals names that are going to be on the letter or on the show. Okay, so his newest as a 20 year old, his newest way to expand on this play scheme. He has a label maker. That's what he wanted for Christmas. And he makes labels for every Metallica song, every ACDC song. So he has labels that he now pairs when he's listening on his echo to all the songs. So this kid, it's just such a neat thing to see that. I think a good way to end this episode is for us to. I want your listeners to understand that autistic children become autistic adults. And autistic adults don't outgrow their childhood passions like most neurotypical kids do. So even though my son is 20, he still has the same passions. They're just his interests maybe are changing a little bit, but his desire to keep things related to letters, right, to have order and structure and organization is still part of who he is. And so I always think it's interesting when a neurotypical adult has some interest in a childhood, something from their childhood. We call it nostalgic, we call it nostalgia. But when an adult autistic. An autistic adult has a childhood interest, we call them immature or we call them childish. So I just want everybody to understand that that is part of the autistic neurotype is to maintain childhood interest into adulthood. And so the label maker to me is just his newest way of saying letters and words and spelling and organization is still part of what brings me joy and gives me my brain tingles.

[A]

Yeah. And it kind of makes me think like that's his hobby, that's what he loves doing.

[B]

Yep, that's a joy.

[A]

Joy. That's the biggest piece.

[B]

We gotta honor autistic joy. Like if I can give three last words. Honor autistic joy. Okay, perfect.

[A]

Well, Carrie, we talked about, you showed your book. And so I want to be sure to link that because everyone is going to want it. Right. And you typically work with like the Birth to Three population, but that book.

[B]

Oh, this book? Yeah. Birth to Five. Everything I do is, is really for Birth to Five.

[A]

Okay, awesome, awesome. Yeah. So definitely get that. And then Carrie has a special free.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I do. Let me show you what it looks like there.

[A]

You got to tell me that's the title of it for you guys.

[B]

It's called Autistic Play Is Authentic Play. I just made a one page summary of kind of most of the important topics that we discussed today. So we'll be sure to link that so that you guys can just have a one pager and just take some points away from this episode.

[A]

Awesome. That's so sweet of you. Okay, so where can everyone find you? And I know on your website if you can kind of just tell everyone what you offer because I've taken several of your seminars and they're phenomenal.

[B]

Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, go to cariebert.com and I have a self study library, a library of self study courses. If you're an slp, they're all ASHA approved. There's courses, lots of course courses on suspected childhood apraxia of speech. This autism course, I have an autism course for parents. A 90 minute autism course for parents. It's $10. Cause I'm not in it to make money when it comes to parents. I just want them to have the information. There's also a course for parents on apraxia. There's my play based learning course, my executive function course. Gosh, I have just a ton of behaviors. My challenging behavior course, my sensory course. It's called Sensory for the slp, but it's for everybody. You know, it's just basically it's not a sensory course from an ot, you know, because I'm an slp. So yeah, you can do self study courses on there. I sell lots and lots of therapy products primarily for minimally speaking, children. So again, because I work with the really young ones, these are products to bring about emergent speech. I have T shirts. I just launched a new line of T shirts. I didn't even tell you this, Tara. So one of them, I wish I had thought to grab them, but one of them is my Defender of Play T shirt. So it looks like a superhero, but defender of play. My other one is building brains through play based learning. So it's a construction theme shirt because we're building brains. You know, we're brain architects. And then I have all my autism shirts, like all brains are beautiful. Autism acceptance, neurodiversity makes the world a brighter place. So I have lots of T shirts. Just launched those not too long ago. And then you can always find me on social media, Instagram and Facebook. I'm Ari Eberts seminar. So those are, those are the main things. If you sign up for my newsletter on my website, then you'll get my weekly tips, you know, strategies to use with kids, my favorite toys, my favorite books, special coupon codes, things like that.

[A]

Oh my gosh, definitely do that, you guys. And I know what I'm doing right after we get off what I'm doing when we get off of this call, I am going to find a T shirt because.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Well, thank you so much, Carrie. This has been just, just the best talk and you're going to help so many people with these strategies. So keep being awesome and doing what you do.

[B]

Thank you. This was the highlight of my day, my week, so I really appreciate you and thanks for inviting me.

[A]

I'm sending a big virtual hug your way because you just finished another episode of the Autism Little Learners podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to have help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. If you have had success with any of the strategies that you learned about in this podcast, I would love to hear from you. Send me a DM on Instagram or Facebook. Autism Little Learners don't forget to grab your free visual support starter set by going to autism little learners learners.com visuals and always remember to find the good in every day.