Ep. 206: Punishment Free Parenting with Jon Fogel

The Baffling Behavior Show (Parenting after Trauma)
Host: Robyn Gobbel | Guest: Jon Fogel
Release Date: January 28, 2025

Overview

This episode features a dynamic conversation between host Robyn Gobbel and guest Jon Fogel, whose new book Punishment Free Parenting launches the same day. The duo explores what it truly means to parent without punishment, especially for families raising children with trauma, neurodivergence, or sensitive nervous systems. Fogel and Gobbel discuss the paradigm shifts required, the myths of permissiveness, the role of boundaries, and the emotional work parents must do—especially when their own upbringing and society send conflicting messages.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jon Fogel’s Unique Perspective on Parenting

• Background: Fogel describes himself as “just a normal dad,” whose approach is “journalistic” rather than expert-driven. He explains his journey—from becoming a dad, studying counseling/trauma in seminary, foster parent training, to processing his own father’s passing.
• Research & Accessibility: His motivation stemmed from learning punishment wouldn’t work for foster children and, after resistance and research, realizing it’s ineffective for all children. He aims to bridge the “ivory tower” gap for parents who feel alienated by technical language.
  • Quote:

    “…This book might be the book that finally hits home for you, or maybe somebody in your life who otherwise wouldn’t be able to access or process or really engage with this type of material.” (08:04)

2. Punishment-Free Parenting: Beyond Trauma

• Both agree the brain-based parenting approach isn’t just for traumatized or neurodivergent kids—it’s good for all humans. Trauma-informed approaches become universal once you recognize how all people learn and relate.
  • Quote:

    “Wait, I actually think this is about humans, right? This isn’t about trauma … It really requires … changing everything we thought we understood about humans and behavior…” (16:05)

3. Making Science Practical and Inclusive

• Robyn praises Jon’s ability to make scientific insights accessible, noting the importance of parents and professionals collaborating:
  • Quote:

    “The more we can get this information out of the ivory tower … there aren’t enough mental health professionals and we’re not reaching the right people. So we need you and folks like you…” (19:42)

4. Imposter Syndrome & Parent Self-Doubt

• Fogel highlights the loneliness parents experience when embracing new methods amid traditional communities:
  • Quote:

    “There’s a real imposter syndrome … when you go to the park … and you’re the only one parenting that way … is this all just wrong? … The answer to that is absolutely not.” (21:28)

5. Deconstructing Core Beliefs

• Fogel's pastoral and chaplain background gives him insight into belief deconstruction. He likens the shift to punishment-free parenting to religious deconversion—a process threatening core identities and worldviews.
  • Quote:

    “I have walked people through deconstruction on things that were harder to deconstruct than why you shouldn’t punish your kids…” (27:03)

6. The Myth That Humans Require Punishment

• Both discuss how many parents internalize the belief that, without punishment, children (and adults) will be “bad.” This pervasive, pessimistic view is thousands of years old and often reinforced by society and religious traditions.
  • Quote (Robyn):

    “…They had learned, usually subtly … that they were bad and without punishment they would just be bad people, which is a real hard thing to deconstruct when you’re older.” (31:10)

  • Quote (Jon):

    “When we understand behaviors as communicating unmet needs … not just a sign of an immoral, you know, eternal soul or something weird like that, what we get is understanding that co-regulating cooperation is … way more effective than punishment in the name of compliance.” (34:21)

7. Why “Deconstructing Punishment” Is So Hard

• Fogel outlines three core barriers:
  1. Lack of Alternatives: If parents don’t know another way, they default to punishment.
  2. Implication for Own Upbringing: If there’s a better way, why didn’t my parents choose it? This breeds grief and loyalty conflict.
  3. Fear of Failure: If I try this and slip up, what does that mean about me?
  • Quote:

    “Even if we get over that … the biggest hurdle … is people saying, if I adopt this new mindset … what if I mess up? … This is not a game of perfection.” (39:07)

8. What If My Co-parent / Partner Isn’t On Board?

• If only one parent shifts, that’s still hugely impactful for the child. The other parent might resist simply because things seem improved, even if they haven’t changed themselves.
  • Quote:

    “If you never get your partner on board, your kid’s going to be okay … The good news is … that one singular attachment can completely change their life.” (43:29)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

On Permissiveness vs. Punishment-Free Parenting

• The Permissiveness Trap:
  • Fogel: “Permissiveness is just trading your kind of peace of mind and mental health in the moment for your kids’ peace of mind and mental health in the future … you’re just trading your in-the-moment happiness … All you’re doing is not allowing your child to go through the normal stress cycle of not getting the thing they want…” (52:20)
• Boundaries Build Safety & Confidence:
  • “Kids who don’t have boundaries are more afraid of the world … If you want your kid to be free, if you want them to have autonomy … yes, you have to give them independence … but you do have to shield them from some things. If you don’t, they’re actually just going to be timid and scared because they don’t know where the boundary is.” (54:50)

On Simplicity & Difficulty in Parenting

• “Parenting is really simple, it’s just really freaking hard … Our brains will often complicate it because we’re afraid that it’s hard. But it’s actually very simple.” (60:58)
• Robyn’s rejoinder:
  • “…So many of the folks listening … have frankly been traumatized by parenting their kids … we as a culture, as a society … have completely abandoned these parents and let them down. If they had what they needed … they would agree exactly with what she said, that this is hard and also simple...” (62:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Book Launch Context: (00:00–05:50)
• Fogel’s Background & Motivation: (06:19–14:39)
• Parenting Without Punishment Is Human-Centered: (14:39–19:42)
• Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome: (21:17–23:18)
• Belief Deconstruction & Pastoral Experience: (24:05–29:42)
• The Harm of Punishment Beliefs: (31:08–35:21)
• Why Parents Struggle to Adopt New Models: (37:50–42:32)
• When Only One Parent Changes: (43:29–46:27)
• Permissiveness vs. Boundaries: (47:00–58:12)
• Is Parenting Complicated or Just Hard?: (60:58–62:48)
• Robyn’s Reflection on Parenting Trauma & Support: (62:48–64:06)
• Where to Find Jon Fogel: (64:14–65:04)

Summary Table: Myths, Realities, and Practical Shifts

| Myth | Reality / New Perspective | Practical Shift | |----------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------| | Children need punishment to be good. | All humans learn best through connection & regulation.| Build co-regulating, secure relationships. | | Authoritative rules or permissiveness: pick one. | Boundaries and connection can coexist. | Be firm AND nurturing; boundaries = safety. | | If I slip up, I’m not cut out for this. | No one’s perfect. Repair and try again. | Embrace rupture-and-repair cycles. | | Only professionals have answers. | Peer-learners and parent advocates matter, too. | Seek relatable, practical resources. | | My child is uniquely impossible. | All children benefit from these approaches. | Support nervous system, regardless of label. |

Episode Tone & Closing Remarks

• The discussion is warm, humble, and encourages self-compassion for parents facing difficult shifts, including very real grief.
• Both affirm: effective parenting isn’t about perfection, nor complicated strategies, but intentional, consistent, connected action—even if that's really hard.
• Jon emphasizes that boundaries are not the opposite of connection—and that permissiveness, just like punitive parenting, can stem from our own discomfort, not our child's needs.
• Robyn and Jon agree that healing and growth for both children and parents means supporting one another, deconstructing harmful beliefs, and learning to be “good enough” together.

Where to Find Jon Fogel:
@WholeParent on all major social media
(Punishment Free Parenting available wherever books are sold)

Robyn Gobbel’s Resources:
Free parenting tools & course info: robingobbel.com

For in-depth exploration of boundaries in trauma-impacted families, look out for upcoming episodes as announced by Robyn toward the episode’s end!