Ep. 208: Bravely Being With Grief with Rose LaPiere

Summary

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The Baffling Behavior Show {Parenting after Trauma}

Episode 208: Bravely Being With Grief, with Rose LaPiere
Host: Robyn Gobbel
Guest: Rose LaPiere, therapist & play therapist
Date: February 11, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores the intricate, layered nature of grief—especially as it arises in families and children who have experienced loss or trauma. Host Robyn Gobbel is joined by Rose LaPiere, a seasoned play therapist and grief companion, to discuss how grief manifests in children and adults, the cultural taboos around expressing grief, and the power of community and simple presence over “fixing.” With honesty and vulnerability, Robyn and Rose share professional and personal experiences supporting families, offering both validation and practical guidance to parents, caregivers, and professionals.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

What Is Grief?

• Rose describes grief as "deep sorrow," encompassing a contradictory state of "feeling so much and also feeling nothing at all" (06:12 – 07:13).
• Robyn notes that many don’t recognize non-death-related losses as “real” grief, and that society often invalidates or narrowly defines grief (04:24 – 05:44).

"It's like feeling so much and then also feeling nothing at all."
— Rose (07:02)

Grief in Children: How It Shows Up

• Children may present as “okay” outwardly, but carry a heavy, unsettled feeling internally (07:36 – 09:57).

• Grief can manifest as restlessness, chaos, withdrawal, loneliness, or even mimic learning or behavioral issues.

• The impact of grief can be long-lasting, with adults sometimes questioning:

  "It's been a year… why are they still unsettled?"
  — Robyn (10:06)

• Rose emphasizes the difference between seeking solitude for regulation versus isolation due to sadness and grief.

Grief, Safety, and the Nervous System

• Grief disrupts expectations of safety—children continue seeking the lost person or situation, and the whole family’s sense of normalcy is upended (11:19 – 13:18).
• Children are especially dysregulated when both they and their caregivers are grieving, thus losing both the person and the caregiver's usual regulatory presence (13:18 – 14:11).

Community and Naming the Loss

• Community support and naming grief directly are vital. During COVID, isolation worsened the grief experience due to a lack of communal rituals and support (14:18 – 15:35).
• Parents often avoid talking about the loss out of fear—fear of making it worse or not knowing what to say.

"Sometimes it's even like we avoid talking about something because we know it can't be fixed. ... But I think—I say different. The opposite."
— Robyn (15:51)

Parental Vulnerability and Modeling Feeling

• It’s okay for adults to show emotion or admit they don’t have the answers, scripting honest responses for parents:

  "I don't know what to say, or this feels a lot for me."
  — Rose (16:38)

• Naming one's own feelings gives kids permission to talk about feelings and normalizes grief.

"How do kids know it's okay to be with feelings? They're watching the people around them be with feelings."
— Rose (19:35)

Approaching Grief with Openness

• Use curiosity-driven, “I wonder…” language as gentle invitations (“offerings”) for kids to share or reject, rather than pressing them (20:26 – 21:07).
• Most kids will correct you if you’ve “gotten it wrong,” so it’s more harmful to avoid the topic than to broach it sensitively.

Professional Reflection—Helpers Need Help Too

• Robyn and Rose discuss the necessity for therapists and helpers to seek support for themselves, especially when cases touch on their own experiences or overwhelm them (27:25 – 29:19).
• Professional co-regulation (consultation, supervision) enables clinicians to remain present for families—modeling the same support, presence, and co-regulation that families need to provide for their children.
• The value of presence over fixing is highlighted:

  "There’s really not a lot to do except for just, like, be with them… And the fear in ourselves because of being with them is so big and so overwhelming."
  — Robyn (32:05)

The Nature of Grief Across Time

• Grief is not linear or ever “resolved”; it morphs over time, re-emerging with new developmental capacities or life events (39:25 – 41:08).
• For children, as they mature, their understanding—and thus the shape and meaning—of the loss evolves.
• Rose shares stories of children returning to therapy as teens to integrate new levels of understanding about earlier losses.

"Grief doesn't go away. It just kind of changes shape and size and moves to different parts of our bodies. And then something can happen, and it comes right back to the front and it's there again."
— Robyn (38:16)

Permission to "Just Be With"

• There’s no need for elaborate activities or rituals unless the child/family is ready and interested. Sometimes, simply offering presence and noticing small moments is most helpful (35:41 – 37:33).
• Touch in, name the feeling, then return to play or normalcy; it’s about titrating closeness to the pain in manageable doses.

"...just being able to just be with their kiddo in talking about a feeling and then that kind of being it and backing away and not feeling like they have to do a special thing."
— Rose (36:45)

Holding Grief and Joy Together

• An especially meaningful thread: the ability to remember and honor the person or experience lost, while also making space for joy, creates a new, more integrated way of holding loss (25:21 – 27:05).
• Tying it all together:

  "There is a place where all these things exist together, where there are sunshine and rainbows and also a lot of hard, hard."
  — Robyn (45:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Defining Grief:
  "So when I think about grief, I think about the really, like, the depth of the sorrow that happens in the loss where my mind, my body, the sensations I’m having, my thoughts are kind of consumed with this sense of just simplifying, like, not feeling good, feeling really bad, feeling really badly inside of my own self."
  — Rose (06:12)

• On Honesty and Permission:
  "I don't know what to say, or I'm so overwhelmed with what's happening inside of me, I will cry when I talk to them about this thing. And I think what is hard in our culture, where I am in America, that we don't really, you know, crying in front of our kids is really hard… So just having permission to know it's okay to say, I don't know what to say."
  — Rose (16:18)

• On Presence over Fixing:
  "There’s really not a lot to do except for just, like, be with them… And the fear in ourselves because of being with them is so big and so overwhelming."
  — Robyn (32:05)

• On Long-Term Integration:
  "There isn’t a way…like a pushing through or getting over or like overcoming or bouncing back… those things just aren’t true about grief."
  — Rose (42:41)

• On Making Space for Paradox:
  "There is a place where all these things exist together, where there are sunshine and rainbows and also a lot of hard, hard. And they're together. There's not a side."
  — Robyn (45:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:12]: Rose defines the experience of grief as deep sorrow (contradiction of feeling everything and nothing).
• [07:36]: How grief may show up in children’s behaviors.
• [10:30]: Grief mimics behavioral or learning concerns in schools.
• [11:49]: Grief disrupts cues of safety and normalcy for kids and families.
• [14:18]: Importance of community; naming the loss.
• [16:18]: Permission for parents to model feelings and acknowledge not knowing what to say.
• [19:10]: Parents’ fears about making things worse by bringing up loss.
• [20:26]: Using curiosity and open-ended prompts with kids.
• [27:25]: The need for therapists to seek their own support.
• [35:41]: Permission to “just be with” grief—no special tools or forced conversations required.
• [39:25]: Grief’s evolution across childhood and life stages.
• [42:07]: No pushing through or “getting over” grief—normalizing its ongoing, changing nature.
• [45:32]: Holding joy and sorrow together.

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Final Thoughts

The conversation concludes with warmth and gratitude for these honest explorations and for Rose’s ongoing involvement in the "Being With" program. The episode gently insists that for children and parents facing grief, the most healing thing is not to “fix” the pain, but to bravely be with it—one moment, one offering, one breath at a time.

Resources and further connection with Rose LaPiere

• Facebook & Instagram: Rose LaPiere
• Website: RoseLaPiere.com

Rose will also be returning for future episodes and joint trainings with Robyn—stay tuned!

Transcript

[A]

Hey, y'. All. So we'll get to the episode that you pressed. Play on in just a second. But I wanted to make sure that you know that the club will be opening for new members next Tuesday. The club is our virtual community of parents of kids with big baffling behaviors and you can read all about it [e-mail] TheClub if you already get emails from me, you'll get a message next week reminding you that the club is open. Otherwise, set yourself a calendar reminder to go to robngobel.com the the club next Tuesday. All righty, let's get to that show you're waiting for.

[B]

So when your kids behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes. Yeah, I know. Let's take a break from all the bamboozle you're on. The baffling in behavior.

[A]

No. Hey, hey, hey. Welcome or welcome back to to the baffling Behavior show or the podcast formerly known as Parenting After Trauma. I'm your host, Robin Goble, and today we have a very, very, very special guest. My friend, colleague and co lead in being with Rose lapierre. Rose is a truly remarkable therapist and play therapist in New Jersey who I've had the pleasure of knowing for, I don't know, seven or eight years now. Our relationship has really grown and changed over the years from Rose being one of my consultees to Rose becoming a coach in the being with program and to becoming a friend to now Rose is serving as a co leader in this year's 2025 cohort of being with in preparation for Rose leading her own cohort next year in 2026. This will allow being with to offer an Eastern time zone evening cohort which also is going to make it easier for our Australian friends and folks in that part of the world to participate because it will be morning there. I can't believe that I've never had Rose on the podcast before. Rose has more than just expertise. She has presence and heart and groundedness. She leads the monthly self compassion practice that we have for all, being with students and alumni and just embodies connection to self. You'll be getting to know Rose probably a bit more over the coming months and I asked her if she'd kick this off by talking about grief. Grief is really the work that anchored Rose and I to one another. Rose's willingness to be brave and to accompany kids and families to the places that most helpers would turn away away from is truly just remarkable. Rose leans into her own experiences with grief, which have unfortunately been quite profound. In order to bring the amount of presence needed to be with families who are now experiencing profound grief themselves. So without any further delay, everybody, I am so excited to introduce you to my dear friend, dear colleague, Rose lapierre. Rose, welcome to the Baffling Behavior Show.

[B]

Hi. I'm so excited to be here and be chatting with you and everyone.

[A]

I can't believe it's taken us this long to get you on the show. Rose and I have known each other for I don't even know how long anymore, but I have a really clear memory. Rose, early, early, early in our consulting relationship where you were working with a family that was experiencing a significant loss.

[B]

Tremendous.

[A]

Yeah, tremendous loss. And the grief work that went along with that. And I remember having so much awe about just like the grace and the br that you embodied, you know, really being willing to kind of step into this family's tremendous, tremendous loss. So when I thought about wanting to talk about grief and grief in kids and families on the podcast, obviously you're like top choice for sure. But before we dive in, actually where I want to start is it's not a hard leap to consider tremendous, tremendous loss. And then that, of course, grief accompanies that, but there are also a lot of what we might kind of try to objectively describe as smaller losses and the grief that comes along with that, or losses that aren't permanent or losses that aren't death. And I remember teaching a day long conference on grief once and one individual in the audience was very unhappy with how I pulled in grief not related to death of another human. And that feedback at the end of that day was so. Has really stayed with me at how we can still find ourselves so lost in these kind of overly rigid definitions of what is grief. And in a way, what that felt like to me was what is someone's valid experience of grief. So I'd love to start just there, like, let's talk about grief. And I know, like, we can't really define grief, but if we were going to, what would you say?

[B]

So when I think about grief, I think about the really like the depth of the sorrow that happens in the loss where my mind, my body, the sensations I'm having, my thoughts are kind of consumed with this sense of just simplifying, like not feeling good, feeling really bad, feeling really badly inside of my own self. And it's not something sometimes people can really actually see. So as people are walking around and, and kind of like holding grief inside of them, really having an effect on all these parts inside. So I I feel like deep sorrow would be, like, these two simple words that I would. It's like feeling so much and then also feeling nothing at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That. Just that contradiction right there. Feeling so much and also feeling nothing at all just left me. Yeah. Speechless for a moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does that look like in kids? Because you're a play therapist, have decades of experience with kids.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. You know, so I've worked with children as young as three who have come in with a loss of. I'll say, like, of a parent or of a sibling and then even loss of a house in, like, a fire or people, like, so many different ways. And, you know, when I see kids, they can come in looking what we would define as okay, because maybe they're smiling or they're excited to, like, be connected and play with the boys that are there. But when you. When I listen to what's happening inside of me and when I really am connecting with them and trying to reach, you can feel the heaviness and the. I almost, like, as I'm thinking about it, like, moving. People can't see me, but I'm, like, having this sense of, like, moving in my body because there's a not settled feeling. So kids might literally be moving or literally be very chaotic in the room with how they play or how they engage you. Or they may be very quiet and wanting to be alone. And you get this sense of aloneness as you try to reach for connection. They're not really picking it up. And it's a different feeling than a child coming in and feeling, like, good and connected to themselves and wanting to be alone versus the loneliness. Because kids can come in and not want to play with me and be completely regulated. And that's just how they like to show up in relationship. They're not really super wanting to, you know, connect the way we would look at connection. But it's not that they're feeling lonely. It's not that there's a sense of something missing inside of them. Whereas the kids that I experience with having grief and loss, there's this thread of just loneliness and sort of, like, in their body having a hard time settling or sometimes really quiet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in schools, it can show up in a lot of ways where we see, like, behavior challenges. And they can look like they have a learning disability or a learning challenge or maybe hyperactivity. Right. Like, why can't they sit? Why can't they settle? It's been a year since things have happened, or they've been in this family for Five years. Why are they still unsettled?

[A]

You've said so many things that I'm like taking note of and want to pull back. You're reminding me of this chapter I read in the Clinical Applications of Polyvagal the by Candace Oxford Russell who is a clinician in Austin. And so I also happen to know Candace really well and she has been a while since I've read this chapter. So forgive me if I'm misremembering, but what I took away from that chapter was this sense of, you know, we have expectations that the things that are regular and normal and anticipated in our life are going to be there. And even if our kind of owl brain knows this thing is gone, let's talk about things we can lose that aren't just people or relationships. Right? We can lose pets, we can lose belongings. I mean I've worked with kids who are seeming to have traumatic grief experiences over moving across the country. And the sense of all of these things that my nervous system was orienting towards sqs of safety, I am still looking for them because that's what our minds do and they're not there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's the devastation and the deep sorrow. Right. That our brain is trying to understand and make meaning about like what happened and how does a three year old understand that to be true? Or an eight year old, right. Having this sense of, excuse me, really big feelings is so overwhelming to the body and having never really experienced that before because they're so little and having grown ups maybe who are experiencing that, who am I turning to that is helping me regulate? And there's nothing wrong with the grown ups not being able to regulate because of course that's true, that they are also going through their own sense of deep sorrow. And what's true about that family is that they are having a new experience with each other that they have never had before because everything looks and feels different. So that inside, outside, in between and that how Candace breaks down the nervous system is really beautiful because that outside relationship that I'm turning to, I don't feel good. So I'm turning to the outside relationship. It's different now. And so now I'm not sure as a five year old, what do I do with that?

[A]

What do we do with that? Like if we notice as a family that we are all, of course we all experience grief differently but if we experience a loss together or a traumatic experience together and we are all navigating our own experience with grief, it makes perfect sense of course that adults are Going to be more dysregulated. There's this almost double whammy. Right. There was the law from the child's perspective. There's this loss, but also my caregiver, the person who soothes and connects and offers me safety. They're also so grieving that it's hard, you know, when I turn to them or reach to them for a safety or soothing connection. It's different there as well. And just like you said, that's not bad or criticism. That's just being perfectly human.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so what do we do?

[B]

Yeah. So a few things are possible. One part is to, you know, community support is a huge piece around grief and loss. And I just want to name, like, when I worked through Covid and I worked with people who had grief and loss, then that was a huge piece. That was a gap that was also a layer that made things so difficult for people because you didn't really have that coming in. So even me being able to know that to be true because of direct experience with that, it makes it even more so me like, emphasizing that and exploring that with families. And what does that look like? Whether it's family or friends or neighbors or, you know, religious places I go to, like, how can people connect with my kids? And to be able to be okay with maybe naming something about the loss that has happened. Right. To offer and invite the possibility of the child maybe talking. Yeah.

[A]

I think I heard saying two things, just to summarize quickly, like, two things. One is community, connection. All of that, of course, as well as the potential for needing to name something that we might be consciously or unconsciously avoiding talking about something about it's uncomfortable or something about it. Sometimes it's even like we avoid talking about something because we know it can't be fixed. There's a sense of, well, then why would we even talk about it? But I think I say the different. The opposite. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Yes. And I also work with the grownups who are raising the kids, and they will say, I don't know what to say, or, I'm so overwhelmed with what's happening inside of me, I will cry when I talk to them about this thing. And I think what is hard in our culture, where I am in America, that we don't really, you know, crying in front of our kids is really hard. Having emotions in front of our kids is not something that we are really good at helping kids with. Right. So just having permission to know it's okay to say, I don't know what to say, or this feels a lot for me. I will help parents because access to their owl brain can feel really hard. So scripting maybe the I'm thinking about our house or our pet and I just feel I'm not even sure what to say. And then even what's that like for you? What do you feel like when you hear me say that? Being able to just offer it's okay for us to talk about hard things. I know I'm not playing with you as much. It's really hard for me to smile right like naming the things that are actually true in because the child is having the experience of of literally seeing you that way and also for themselves.

[A]

Just a real quick interruption. If you're loving the podcast, you should go right now to my website. Check out all my free resour. There's webinars, downloadable ebooks and a huge amount of infographic cheat sheets on so many different topics. Felt safety and boundaries, how to handle lying. What to do if you have a child who seems always dysregulated. How to not flip your lid when your kid is flipping theirs. Steps you can take when your nervous system is fried. What co regulation really looks like. And y', all, that's not even all. There's more. And my team and I add at this point about one new free resource a month. So you're going to want to check in regularly, see all those free resources and download exactly what you want@robin goble.com freeresources let's go back to the show. When folks listening have maybe a fear of, oh, I don't know if I should say something because I don't know if they are thinking those things. And so I don't want to bring it up. Like, I don't want to say something that then makes this kid feel bad. Because that's a question I assume you probably get a lot. How do you help parents with that? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I also like, I don't want to make them think things that they're not thinking. Oh yeah, he's a big one. And my experience with kids is that they're. They will tell you. No, I don't think like that. Yeah, they will. They will tell you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so you're just making an offering because how do kids know it's okay to be with feelings? They're watching the people around them be with feelings. And these feelings that we're talking about isn't just I'm mad, my sister push my blocks over. This is like a wave inside of them that keeps stirring and doesn't really go away. Although with kids, the beauty of kids is that there's moments that they actually do feel. They can connect with playfulness and joy in a different way than adults can. But in the moments when you're having a conversation with them about feelings, it's okay to just notice and say, I wonder if you feel that way too. I wonder if you have moments of feeling really sad or thinking about your sister or your friend. Because I'm thinking about them and then maybe the child says nothing and then you know, okay, and you're just planting a seed for emotions and that all emotions are okay.

[A]

Well, you're using a lot of open curiosity based language. I wonder if. Yeah, I'm feeling xyz. I wonder if you ever feel that way, you know, like these, like you said, like you called them, like offerings.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I agree that kids are pretty typically not all kids, but a lot of kids are real happy to tell you when you get it wrong. So yeah, I feel mostly good. I mean, there's a kind of handful of kids that I am more cautious about leading in any kind of way. But the majority of kids are really happy to tell you when you've, when you've gotten it wrong. Like, no, I'm not thinking or feeling that way at all. That's wrong.

[B]

Right? Right. Yeah. My experience with working with the grownups has been again, like, for them it's just such a large experience inside their own body. It's so overwhelming for them that their owl brain is less likely around. And then also when I work with families, I think about what was this family like? How did they express feelings before? What were the things that were challenging for them before all of these experiences happens, because it allows me to take into context more of who they are. And then holding space in my mind for the fact like all of this makes perfect sense, that they are having a hard time. And given their temperament, their nervous system, the way they learn things, their history of losses, how that impacts, you know, the response and how they're going to be navigating through this.

[A]

Yeah, I imagine adults having the way adult may respond differently to a loss if that adult has not had a large history of significant loss versus if they have or if their life started with loss and a loss was a part of them coming into the world and how that impacts all the future losses they've ex. You know, they then experience and then now that's an adult who's trying supporting a kid who is now having a big, big loss. And there's such a moment of. Gosh, what's the word like for. I think it's awe. Just awe. How complex all of it is in a way, in this moment doesn't feel particularly overwhelming to me. It just feels like wow. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So to hold all that space. And I can remember that those moments actually of working through that case with you was a lot to hold for me to hold this family. I really had to work on my own compassion for me holding the space and my own keeping one foot in and one foot out to be able to help stay regulated. Because what was true is when I work with families and kids, I infuse playfulness because playfulness is so hard for them to access after something happens. It's so, so, so, so hard. And so I am naturally like a playful person. So it's super easy for me to be silly or things like that, but also a titrating that being able to like, you know, when are moments when actually truly I am thinking of the loss that they experience and me naming that like, oh, you know, I just thought of your person and I'm wondering how they would like what we're doing. Right. And being able to sit in if that might not feel okay for the people I'm with or if that plant a seed of being able to talk about their person or laugh about, like, oh, they would hate this, or yeah, they would really like this. And that feels sad and also feels good to remember them. Here's that. Both ends we can feel sad and feel good. To think about that part that's making.

[A]

Me think of the, you know, what feels like maybe thousands of adoptive families I've worked with at this point of lobbying something like that out there. I wonder if this is something that your mom would have really loved to do with us too. Or I wonder if this really neat thing about you, you know, how much you love to dance is something that your mom also loved or is something she also loved to do and how that can feel brave and scary to bring something that maybe could feel like grief or sad or particularly for an adoptive parent, there's some valid feelings that come up even around that. Right. That to bring all these pieces together. Look at this wonderful, delightful moment we're having right now. And then to consider bringing in something that has a lot of sadness tinged to it takes a lot of guts and a lot of bravery, and there's so many benefits to doing so.

[B]

Yes. And that's the. I guess the piece over the years, because I've been working in this Field a really long time in grief and loss and being able to step into that and work through my discomfort. What's my discomfort of anchoring into this truth? That it's true that they are probably at some point having a thought about the loss as it's inevitable because given how their nervous system is having such deep feelings about all of this. And so me naming it feels congruent and it feels right to do that versus dancing around it and not really saying anything feels dysregulating inside of me.

[A]

Yeah, you said something that I didn't plan to touch on, but I think because there's so many professionals listening and this is such an important little piece, I do want to touch on it just really briefly, which is that this case that you were involved with all these, all these, all of these years ago was really intense. Really intense. It was complicated. It was intense. It was big. It was overwhelming. It also touched some of your own pasts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And because of that, you knew you needed support.

[B]

Yeah. Immediately.

[A]

Yes. And there was no shame in that. There was no. I'm not a good therapist because of this. It was, again, it was almost just like this congruent moment with reality which is like, whoa, yeah, is huge. It is going to stress my window of tolerance. I am going to have a lot that comes up for me related to this, related to my own helplessness, related to my own past. And you made the choice to kind of bring somebody in to your regulation as opposed to step less into their dysregulation. And we don't talk a ton, like very directly to professionals on this show, but I know a lot of them are listening and these people listening to the show are helping families with a ton of intensity.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I really just wanted to like highlight that. That's like I was so instinctual for you. Do you remember what that was like or how that was helpful or. Yeah, let's talk about that just a little.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I do. I remember not feeling anchored and so overwhelmed. I've had a. I have a very long history of loss in my life, so have worked on that for a really long time. So I knew over time things would get touched. Kind of like even connecting this to the kids as developmentally they grow, the loss integrates and comes up for them in different ways. And the same is true for us as grown ups. And also what's true, even if we haven't had a history of loss, there is something about us. Confronting the existential thoughts about death and dying in general is really important. For us to look at when we're working with people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so that concept for me is really. And I had known you before because I had been working on cases with you, but just not. I think I started seeing you like weekly or every other week. It was just like I knew I needed to feel anchored and grounded because I wanted to lean into what this family needed. And that felt super important to me. Even though, I mean, there were many moments that you and I sat together and I cried a lot. And that was super helpful because I also held you in my mind in moments when I was with them. It was like what you gave me, that co regulation was embodied in me, and I was able to then co regulate and be with them. And as I held you, I would hear the parents tell me things, which often happens. And I thought of you last night when so and so woke up and I didn't know what to do. And I just remembered our sessions with each other and how you just repeated back and how you just sat and took a breath and how you held that. And that's what I did. Right. So as. As you did that for me, I was able to bring that to the family and the family was able to do that then for their kids too. So. Yeah.

[A]

Just the other day you and I heard another family talk about how their therapist felt like they couldn't help them anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how I think it's really important for therapists and professionals or helpers or whatever role you are to be constantly doing inventory of. Like, when has this exceeded my skills and I need to bring another professional in? Of course, of course, of course, of course. But so often there is this sense that somebody else could do this better when that really isn't true because there's really not a lot to do except for just, like, be with them. Right. And so the fear in ourselves because of being with them is so big and so overwhelming. And it brings up all of, like, so many of our own things too, like our incompetency and our inadequacy. And I say this from firsthand experience. Like, I've also done all of these things and but you know, you and I have this, like, front row view into how this is impacting the families.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And I remember hearing the story and having such deep compassion for both for the family who's facing yet another loss of professional, who was saying, I don't know what to do, but also for the professional who is clearly feeling so overwhelmed, so outside their own window of tolerance and doubting the Value the importance of presence, especially when there's something unsolvable like grief. We can do nothing to fix what happened. It's all about just our kind of capacity to be with. And one of the things that came to mind for me is like, oh, I just wish so much that this professional has a moment of noticing I deserve support too. I deserve support. And maybe if that person can get some support, then their capacity to just be with this family in this very impossible to solve situation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Could increase. Y', all. Have you heard? The Baffling Behavior Training Institute is now accepting applications and enrolling for the 2026 cohorts of the Professional Immersion Program, which is our program that's formally known as being with. This year long, highly experiential program will help you grow your capacity to connect, resonate and be with even the most dysregulated parents with the most dysregulated kids. Graduates become registered raising kids with Big Baffling behaviors course facilitators, which includes a 12 module parent course that you can offer to your clients and community and oodles and oodles of support resources to help your parent clients implement the science of regulation, connection and felt safety with their kids and families. So if you go to robngobel.com immersion you'll be able to read all about the program details and add your name to the waiting list. In 2026, we're offering two cohorts, including a new cohort which meets in the evening time eastern time zone. This means now professionals from Asia and Australia can more easily participate, as well as students in the US who've been unable to participate in a daytime cohort. You must be on the waiting list to apply. So head to robingobel.com immersion.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's so powerful and so vulnerable. Right. So even though it might have been easy for me to sit with you while we had a history together, but I. I'm pretty okay with the fact that I might cry. Like that's okay for me. You know that about me.

[A]

I do know that about you.

[B]

But that's not true for everybody.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And so that can feel really hard to feel vulnerable with a consultant or someone and just feel helpless in that helplessness. Yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about too how the families. It's okay. You know, I think one of the things I find for families is like maybe or therapists even, they want this like a script or like activities or like and I think holding in our mind the treatment plan of like helping them with expressing their feelings. And connect with the grief and loss. But we don't always have to, like have a special activity just because it's a grief and loss. Like, you don't have to actually have like a memory book or like a. I don't even know. And those things are fine. I do them too. It's not that I never do them, but when a child or the grown up is more in their owl brain of connecting to that part. Because doing those activities can also push someone outside their window of tolerance and overwhelm the nervous system because they're not ready to face that in that way, in that structured sort of like direct way to be with the loss. So I also just giving parents permission to just be with their kiddo in the talking about a feeling and then that kind of being it and backing away and not feeling like they have to do a special thing. But of course it's okay if you want to try that out too.

[A]

I know so vividly the impulse of like, oh, I see a little moment here where we could talk about a feeling. So let's talk about a feeling. And then let's keep talking about the feeling, because it feels like, oh, there was this opportunity. And I know that that's good. And so because there's an opportunity, feels like we have to really, like, lean into it hard. It's like just a tiny, tiny little moment. Okay. A tiny little moment. And then coming. Coming back out of it. It doesn't have to be from fear, but just from achievement of, like, we're going to touch here. And then we're gonna go back to making slime, or while we were making slime, we. We had this little moment and then we're gonna go back to thinking about how it's so sticky on our hands or.

[B]

Right, right. Yeah.

[A]

One of the other things you mentioned that I'd love to touch on briefly before we conclude our time together today is the developmental experience of grief and how so I had this early, early, early mentor in my career, like, probably my first, like, social work mentor who said to me, grief doesn't go away. It just kind of changes shape and size and moves to different parts of our bodies. And then something can happen and it comes right back to the front and it's there again and it's big and it's huge. And then it can change shape and size and kind of like move away again. And this is really our lifelong experience with grief. And that made a lot of sense to me as an adult. But let's. Can we think about that? Like through the lens of a, of a child who is still like progressing kind of quickly, you know, through different developmental stages. And their cognitive capacity to like reflect on and make meaning of that experience is going to be ever evolving 100%.

[B]

The beauty of the work for me is I love working with the all really the ages. And so I've had kids that I've seen when they were very young with their loss, you know, maybe six or seven and then I might not see them because their work at that time is done. And then I'll see them as teenagers and they'll want to come back in and connect. And what they're coming in for is not about necessarily the loss, but what's true is that those pieces about what I know about them and the loss get to be interweaved into what they're trying to integrate. Because maybe the story that they knew when they were seven or eight wasn't really all the details of information. And maybe they need more story to understand who they are and how they came to be in the world and what happened. And maybe it's not about the story that because they know all the things, but it's just about the fact that it's just true. Their experience is just true. And as they sit in that as a 15 year old versus like a 5 year old, it's devastating and it feels terrible. And so they're also thinking about that in a way that's different. And I do talk to kids about that and of course the parents or the families when I'm working with them, if I'm not working with the kids about how that can change and evolve and what they know, can, can and the information they need might be different and how they're integrating their story over time is going to change.

[A]

I think about you. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. All of that and you and I serve in return. It's just like oh yeah. And, and, and you know, the, the so much about grief and loss is the loss of what you thought was going to happen that's not going to now. And a loss when you were three or four, when you're 15, you have this cognitive capacity to now think about all the things that coulda, woulda even 10, you know, so like this new stage of oh, that could have been different, that could have been different because that happened, this happened or didn't happen. And I think my reason for, for even just touching on that is again just, I think sit with like the awe of how it can touch everything.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And just being Open to that grief doesn't have a timeline. And because, you know, even think of myself, the losses that I have, because Maybe it's been 20 years later and I'm thinking about this person, it's not because I haven't grieved or like the quote unquote, as I'm doing that, but it's because they will always be embedded in my mind. Right. So I can hold that and know that that is true. And when you have someone and you talk to them about the experience and they've had a significant loss, they can relate to that sense of having that. The shift that you talked about, how it changes, how the pain isn't necessarily the same and how you hold them in your mind now, many years later. And that takes time. And there isn't a way, there isn't like a pushing through or getting over or like overcoming or bouncing back or like those things just aren't true about grief.

[A]

And it also doesn't impact negatively. In fact, it impacts positively the relationship you have current. The relationships you have currently. Right. Like, having such deep connection to these past relationships doesn't mean the current relationships are less strong or are threatened in some way by these past relationships. And that is something, you know, I, I didn't know you 20 years ago. I've known you, I guess about maybe 10ish, a little less than that. That is something I think you embody so beautifully that those, all of that can be true and it's not threatening. Right. The relationship that you still hold so deeply to these past memories doesn't threaten your current experiences or your current relationships or like, they all just are you.

[B]

Yes. They all exist inside of me and we can hold them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like in a lot of ways that is a strength in really, like, how I can step towards people who are grieving and not feel afraid to sit with them because it is so painful for them. It is so painful for them. And so being able to hold that, this I'm, I'm witnessing, I'm accompanying them in this storm part of their life that is really big right now and how long that will last is not for me to decide. Right. And that's for me to sit with them and to be with them and that, that in and of itself itself will help them through that. But my goal isn't to. I mean, of course I want people to feel better, but my goal isn't to like, rip them to the other side of the, like the sunshine and rainbows and have this like, yeah, well.

[A]

You Even just so implicitly embody that. That's not a thing. That, like, there isn't another side of sunshine in rainbows. There is a. A place where all these things exist together, where there are sunshine and rainbows and also a lot of hard, hard.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they're together. There's not a side. You can bring it all together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, this has been a very lovely day. A lovely way to start a Sunday morning. Thank you.

[B]

Yes. Thank you so much for inviting the conversation about grief in this way and just being able to be together and talk about it so easily between the two of us and the rest of whoever's listening.

[A]

I love to imagine that, like these close, intimate, important relationships that I have that other people get to have this kind of look into an experience and felt sense of and benefit from it. I think that's really cool. Rose. People can find you in places like online and social media and stay connected to you. So tell people how to do that.

[B]

Yeah. So Facebook. It's just my name, Rose lapierre. And you can also find me on Instagram and of course on my website. You can. I'm not necessarily sending out newsletters in this moment, but you could sign up for future things and just see what I'm up to. Social media is probably the best. Instagram, Facebook to see current things.

[A]

And Rose is going to be back. Rose is doing more and more inside being with Rose. And I have a training that we're gonna teach together in the fall that we haven't really publicly announced yet, but we are. It is gonna be awesome. So stay tuned for all that. So those of you listening, you are gonna hear from Rose again. And I'm just really grateful for that. Thank you, Rose.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Yeah. If you are loving the baffling behavior show and wondering where to go next, where you can get more support, or maybe you're a professional and you want to bring this work to your clients. I've got three places you can go next. Number one, my USA Today best selling book, Raising kids with big baffling behaviors. It's been over a year and a half and Raising kids with big baffling behaviors continues to exceed our wildest dreams. It's breaking sales goals and getting feedback that it's changing people's lives. Raising kids with Big baffling behaviors is available in paperback, ebook and audiobook, which I read wherever you buy books online. Okay. So the second way to get more support is to come join us in the club. The club is an online community of connection co regulation and yeah, a little education. It's for in the trenches parents where you will get support from me, from my team and from in the trenches parents all over the world. We have over 500 members. You can come into the club, pick my brain, watch over a hundred different videos, Download well over 50 resources that have been uniquely developed just for families in the club to bring owls and watchdogs and possums into your family. And if you're a professional, a therapist, coach, teacher educator, occupational therapist, daycare owner, anyone who supports the parents of kids with big baffling behaviors, you are going to want to hop on the waiting list for the 2026 cohorts of the Baffling Behavior Training Institute's year long professional Immersion Program. Formerly known as Being with the Professional Immersion Program immerses our students into an experiential program with the neuroscience of big baffling behaviors and the science of connection, safety and co regulation. You'll grow your own capacity to hang out in the hardest places with families of kids with vulnerable nervous systems and finally feel the professional support you need to work with the families and who keep being told by other professionals that they can't help them anymore. We're accepting applications for our 2026 cohorts, including the afternoon cohort and the evening Eastern time cohort. That's new for 2026, so if you've been waiting for an evening Eastern time time for the immersion program, which is morning in Asia and Australia, then you're going to want to make sure you're on the waiting list. Head to robingobel.com immersion to get your name on the waiting list and be invited to apply. And of course keep coming back to the podcast. A new episode goes live every week and we're continuously creating more and more free resources for you over on my website, robingobel.com.