How the World’s Biggest Podcast Thinks About Growth (And What It Means for You Personally)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Balance Theory with Erika De Pellegrin

Episode Title: How the World’s Biggest Podcast Thinks About Growth (And What It Means for You Personally)
Guest: Grace Miller (Head of Experimentation & Failure, Diary of a CEO)
Release Date: February 15, 2026
Theme: Unlocking growth—personally and professionally—through strategic experimentation, curiosity, and learning from failure, using insights from the meteoric rise of "The Diary of a CEO" podcast.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Erika De Pellegrin delves deep into how the world’s biggest podcast, The Diary of a CEO, has achieved extraordinary growth. Her guest is Grace Miller, the podcast’s Head of Experimentation and Failure, who shares tactics, mindsets, and personal lessons on experimentation, failure, and finding balance. The discussion spans practical tips for podcasters, the importance of being willing to test, the power of iterative small experiments, and how these same principles can radically benefit personal growth. Both host and guest share personal experiences of career shifts and embracing discomfort for ongoing development.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Grace’s Journey: From University Failure to Head of Experimentation

[02:24 – 04:37]

• Grace failed university in Australia, then built a marketing career in aviation during the pandemic.
• She leveraged her unique experience in paid media to land her role at Diary of a CEO.
• “What skills can this person bring to the team that no one in the team has?”
  (Grace Miller, 04:22)

2. The Importance of Experimentation—Corporate & Personal

[06:19 – 07:19, 25:59 – 27:54]

• Steve Bartlett (host/founder) created a dedicated experimentation department, inspired by tech giants.
• Grace’s natural tendency to test new paid media approaches led to her pioneering experimentation within the company.
• Failure is not only expected but necessary:
  “It’s not the success or the failure that matters. It’s that you tried.”
  (Grace Miller, 26:47)

3. Inside the World’s Fastest-Growing Podcast

[07:50 – 11:18]

• The team works globally and is both hard-working and fun.
• Every detail, no matter how small, is scrutinized (scent, lighting, music for guests).
• Growth driven by a culture of deep care and going the extra mile, pushing through "paper walls" (perceived barriers):
  “If you want to be the best in your industry, you’ve got to do things that other people aren’t doing.”
  (Grace Miller, 08:48)

4. Building the Team: Small but Mighty

[11:45 – 13:53]

• Diary of a CEO’s core team was small (about 7 initially, ~30 after several years).
• Rapid growth is possible even for new shows with 2–3 team members, applying lessons learned.
• “It can look like a massive team. But in reality, the main core people... can be quite small to still achieve massive results.”
  (Grace Miller, 12:41)

5. Testing Culture: What Actually Gets Experimented?

[14:50 – 19:45]

• Thumbnails and call-to-actions are continually tested on YouTube (titles, images, styles).
• Deep dives into analytics: retention graphs, subscriber origins, and even “AI brainstorm features.”
• Most experiments won’t yield dramatic results, but small, persistent adjustments compound over time.

6. Learning from Failure: A Concrete Example

[21:08 – 22:54]

• Tried doubling the output on their Clips Channel with hopes for doubling views—“It was not a success at all. … It probably hurt our views on the original videos more than what it helped.”
  (Grace Miller, 21:44)

7. Aligning Experiments with Goals

[23:03 – 24:20]

• All experiments should be mapped to broader company or personal goals.
• Knowledge-driven experiments (for learning) can be valuable even if not tied directly to growth metrics.

8. Standout Learning: Fine-Tuning for Maximum Impact

[24:31 – 25:55]

• Determined optimal Spotify episode length via experiment, improving both retention and partnership opportunities.
• “Those small tweaks that can add up to the big experiments.”
  (Grace Miller, 25:50)

9. Building Emotional Resilience Around Failure

[25:59 – 27:54]

• Setting micro-experiments within personal goals builds tolerance for setbacks.
• Industry average: “Seven in ten experiments come back inconclusive.”
• Suggestion: Run a tiny experiment every day—thumbnails, captions, social post time, etc.

10. Platform-Specific Testing Tactics

[28:11 – 30:47] Actionable tips for creators!

• YouTube:
  • Test thumbnails/titles
  • Use AI brainstorm tools
  • Experiment with end screens
• Spotify:
  • Prompt for comments
  • Encourage subscribing
  • Add chapters/timestamps
• Instagram:
  • Test with Reels (especially new/non-followers)
  • Use translation tools for broader reach

11. Building Curiosity and an Experimental Mindset

[31:02 – 34:49]

• Curiosity is essential—asking questions and admitting “I don’t know” is encouraged at DOAC.
• “Are you curious? And how many times do you ask why?”
  (Grace Miller, 31:33)

12. Applying Experimentation Personally

[35:13 – 38:51]

• Set annual/personal goals, then create mini-experiments to reach them (e.g., saving money, sharing content online).
• Small daily efforts (1%) compound into significant progress.
• Embrace discomfort as a path to growth
  “If you’re not trying something new or experimenting, you’re not gonna grow at all.”
  (Grace Miller, 38:01)

13. The Power of Compound Effort & Commitment

[44:16 – 45:10]

• Both Grace and Erika emphasize the compounding effect—stick with your effort for years.
• “When I started, the other podcasters… had all been around for a minimum of five years. … If I want to do it seriously, I have to do it for five years before I even think of who’s listening.”
  (Erika De Pellegrin, 44:44)

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Notable Quotes

• “If you want to be the best in your industry, you’ve got to do things that other people aren’t doing.”
  — Grace Miller [00:11, 08:48]
• “It’s not the success or the failure that matters. It’s that you tried.”
  — Grace Miller [26:47]
• “Every single thing matters to Steve and the Diary of a CEO team.”
  — Grace Miller [15:44]
• “It can look like a massive team. But in reality… a podcast can be quite small to still achieve massive results.”
  — Grace Miller [12:41]
• “If you’re not trying something new or experimenting, you’re not gonna grow.”
  — Grace Miller [38:01]
• “Your niche is you. And there’s one of that.”
  — Erika De Pellegrin [44:16]

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Memorable Moments & Stories

[05:13] – Adapting in Crisis

Grace recounts using a grounded airport during COVID as an opportunity to stage a live concert on the runway—turning adversity into creativity.

[21:08] – Failed Experiment

Doubling content on the Clips channel backfired—reminding listeners that not all logical experiments pan out, and rapid iteration is key.

[31:33] – Childhood Curiosity

Grace describes her lifelong curiosity (“Why is the light on?”), tying it into her success and mindset as an adult.

[39:26] – Uncomfortable Growth

Both Grace (learning to meal prep for health) and Erika (returning to full-time C-suite work with an infant) reflect on embracing discomfort for growth.

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Practical Takeaways

• Adopt micro-experiments: Tiny, consistent changes in your workflow or personal habits produce outsized, cumulative results.
• Align experiments with your highest goals, but give yourself permission to pursue “knowledge experiments” for learning’s sake.
• Don’t let failure discourage you. Seven out of ten tests may yield nothing—making success all the more meaningful.
• Use available analytics tools (YouTube, Spotify, Instagram) and platform-specific experimentation features—they’re designed to help you grow.
• Balance hard work with a culture of fun and genuine care—and remember: small, passionate teams can move mountains.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:24 – Grace’s career journey from failure to leadership
• 04:54 – Crisis-led creativity during the pandemic
• 07:50 – Culture and pace inside the Diary of a CEO team
• 09:56 – Why the podcast skyrocketed in popularity
• 13:53 – Small team, big results: team building lessons
• 14:50 – Most valuable ongoing experiments
• 21:10 – A failed experiment and what was learned
• 24:31 – Favorite learning: fine-tuning episode length
• 25:59 – Developing emotional resilience to failure
• 28:11 – Platform-specific actionable tips for creators
• 31:02 – Curiosity, culture, and not knowing all the answers
• 35:13 – Applying experimentation in personal growth
• 38:01 – On embracing discomfort for growth
• 44:44 – The power of compounding long-term effort

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Conclusion

Grace Miller pulls back the curtain on The Diary of a CEO, showing that relentless experimentation, micro-optimizations, smart failure, and authentic curiosity fuel not just podcasting success—but also personal fulfillment and growth. Erika and Grace’s lively, insightful conversation is both a masterclass for creators and a motivational manifesto for anyone looking to build lasting change in any area of life.

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Transcript

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

31St of January 2022. You crossed 100k and roll forward 1,352 days. We passed 13 million subs. Why do you think Diary of a CEO has been so successful?

[Grace Miller]

If you want to be the best in your industry, you've got to do things that other people aren't doing. It's not about that we know something others didn't know. It's that we're willing to try things. Today's guest takes us behind the scenes of the growth and success of Stephen Bartlett's Diary of a CEO and shares.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Everything we need to know about the future of podcasting. Joining me is head of experimentation and.

[Grace Miller]

Failure of Diary of a CEO Miller. Every single thing matters to Steve and the Darvasio team. There's so much you can play around.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

With YouTube, Instagram and Spotify.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

What would be like, maybe two things people can test in each of those platforms.

[Grace Miller]

Let's start with YouTube.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

If you were, like, looking at, let's say, the back end of my channel from scratch, what kind of key things would you be looking at?

[Grace Miller]

You don't have to come up with anything super innovative. It can be as simple as just try using those things to your advantage. I'd be looking at the main core people that work on a podcast be quite small to still achieve massive results. And we've seen that with our new shows at FLY could be two or three people working on it and they are growing faster than the D CEO.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

What are your thoughts? Do you think podcasts are oversaturated?

[Grace Miller]

If someone listens to this episode, they're going to understand more about podcasting, how to experiment, but also get comfortable with failure.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

All right, balancers, welcome to another episode of the Balance Theory. I am very excited to bring you today's guest. We are going to learn a lot from her. I'm very interested in her journey and growth and really just to get to know her. So, Grace Miller, welcome to the show.

[Grace Miller]

Thank you for having me. You know, I've listened to the show so many times, so I'm so excited to be here.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Oh, that's. That's really nice to hear. And welcome to Dubai as well. It's your first time here, so I'm glad we could pencil this into your schedule. I know it's going to be hectic the next few days for you.

[Grace Miller]

No, I'm really excited to chat to you.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Well, I think we're a really good place to start to sort of set the stage for where you are now and everything you're Going to share with us today is getting to know you and your journey a little bit more. So you talk about how you failed university and now you are the head of failure and experimentation for both Stephen Bartlett and the Diary of a CEO. Talk to me about that gap, getting from that point A to now, point B. What was that like for Grace?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, it was interesting and it was also on the other side of the world. So it was in Australia when I was studying uni and I studied marketing and international business and I actually really loved it. The class I failed, I didn't love so much, but then obviously, no surprises, retook it and yeah, then had to pass it, but studied and then I went into marketing and social media within the aviation industry. So worked with airports and airlines, which was really fun, but also a massive challenge. Cause it was during COVID so there was two rounds of redundancies. I was really lucky to not be made redundant and. And learnt so much there. So I always say to my managers from there how grateful I am for the knowledge they gave me because when I then moved to the uk, I was able to bring that knowledge with me into this role, which was super important because I had. Well, I'll tell you in a sec. But basically I had skills that other people didn't have that allowed me to get the job. So I actually saw the role. It actually wasn't even to do with failure experimentation, it was to do with a project that doesn't even exist anymore. So when I started, I saw the job on, on Instagram of one of my friends, Grace, who used to work in the company. She posted it and I saw it applied on a Monday and then started the job the next Monday.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Wow.

[Grace Miller]

So within a week, which was a whirlwind, but also the coolest startup vibe ever. And we went from that to four years later, I'm still there. It's literally my four years this week, I think tomorrow, the next day, which is amazing and I've loved every second of. But I think the reason I was able to get the job is I had the skills of. I'd learned a lot about paid media in my previous role that allowed me to have something that the team currently didn't have. And I still see that now. It's like, what skills can this person bring to the team that no one in the team has and they can contribute? And it's kind of what we currently look for as well, of how they can upskill and uplift the current team. And so, yeah, that's how I Got into the role and got here today and been a whirlwind, but the best type of whirlwind ever.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

That's. I'm just thinking about you working for an airline during COVID and how like difficult that would have been in terms of marketing. Like.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, what.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

How were you involved in like the pivot of strategy? Like, can you just very high level, like share that? I'm actually very interested to hear what that involves.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, it was. So we worked for. We owned multiple airports in Australia, the company I work for, and then we worked with the airlines and so our airports, we had to do so many opens and closes. So it was like, we're reopening. Nope, we're shut again because of COVID And then we reopen and then we shut again. Probably I think about five times.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, I was in Australia. Yeah, I know.

[Grace Miller]

And honestly I. It was the best challenge in the sense of understanding how well I got a lot of experience in how do you plan something and then re strategize if it doesn't work. But we also took it as an opportunity to do really cool things. So we did a concert on the Runway with the band shepherd, which is like the Australian stage. Geronimo is their famous song and it had like a private jet and a fire truck behind it and they did a whole performance on the Runway, which would never happen in a normal day because there's planes. So it was kind of taking the things that couldn't work and finding a new way to do things throughout all of that. And obviously it was a tough time for everyone, but especially the travel industry had nothing going on. So we were trying to use all of the skills we had to put to advantage in different places.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Well, I can definitely hear how those early threads of experimenting and having to pivot quickly was sort of within you already. Did you create the role you're in now yourself in the team, or was it put forward as something and then you kind of filled the shoes?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. So I was two years into the social media role with Steve and was doing all of his paid marketing, community, email product. We kind of just did everything at the start altogether.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

As you do in startup.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, everyone's hands on. And then two years into it, Steve said, I've seen the likes of Amazon, Google, Tesla, all have experimentation departments or innovation departments. Would you want to do something like that? And I think the reason he asked, I've never actually asked him why he came and asked me that, but within the page, I used to experiment every week and say these are the new people we're targeting or the demographics or different countries and how they're performing. And so was naturally experimenting without realizing. And so when he said, I was like, actually, it's a great challenge and something super cool and innovative to try. And also a nice shift in career where I still get to work with the social media teams, but I get to now help grow the podcast and company.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Well, I really admire, like, what you guys, as a team and as a podcast have done, because you're really paving the way in pushing the boundaries as to what a podcast is and means. And I think it's really, really inspiring. And we're definitely going to dive a bit more into experimentation because I think that looks like one thing within, like, a team and a podcast, but even for ourselves individually. Like, I would love to get your thoughts on that. Yeah. Before we go in there, if I was a fly on the wall in your office, what would a typical day in the diary of a CEO team look like?

[Grace Miller]

Everyone all over the world. So we were laughing about it yesterday because Jem, like our producer who books all of the amazing guests, she was flying off to la, I was flying here. Then Jack, who does all the direction and editing, he's flying to LA in a few days. So it's chaos in the best way. And then Steve is already overseas. But if we're all in the office at the same time, it's usually a lot of chatting about work and about life and a lot of laughter because everyone is just very jokey and friendly, which is so nice, but also a lot of hard work, which I think from videos and like, obviously we have behind the Diary, which is a vlog of Steve's life. It can seem like lots of fun and it is the most fun company, but it also is a lot of hard work. And everyone there is so talented and truly the best of their areas. So it's not only fun, but it's also a lot of strategy, a lot of finding ways to do things better and conversations like, Steve was whatsapping last night when I was at the airport, say, I think we should do these things, and putting everyone in contact with each other for a project we're working on and moving fast. And that's the thing Steve loves. He was. I said, oh, yeah, I can do a meeting on a weekend. Not saying everyone should. I think work, life, balance is good, but I think if you want to be the best in your industry, you've got to do things that other people aren't doing. And we're willing to do a meeting on a weekend to become the best.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Well, it definitely goes to show. And I came across this stat about the show. So basically, on the 31st of January 2022, which is almost four years ago to the date, and probably around the time you started, you crossed 100k on YouTube and roll forward. The post said 1,352 days, which is 14th of October 2025. You passed 13 million subs, which is insane growth. And I think there's so much to learn and extract from that journey. But I wanted to ask you, why do you think Diary of a CEO has been so successful and one of the biggest and best shows in the podcasting world?

[Grace Miller]

I think it's because the team genuinely cares. And I know that's hard to say because it's hard to say, oh, please care about this work you're doing, but they genuinely care and they really want it to be the best. So Jack, who I mentioned before, he is one of the best people I've ever met who knows YouTube or podcasting in general. And you can meet, I'm sure you've met a lot of YouTube strategists. And whether or not they're YouTube strategists, I think there's only a few in the world who are actually truly, really good at what they need to do. And Jack is one of those. And the rest of the team, whether it's the producers, the team's on the trailers. Like, I see so many podcasts now trying to replicate direct trailers, and I think everyone can have their own spin on it and make it their own. But I, the team behind that, actually cares so much about every tiny detail. And it's not just that. It's everyone in the team. And that is the success. It's not about that we know something others didn't know. It's that we're willing to try things and we care so much that we want to know the answers of how to grow as fast. And Steve had talked about it on a podcast yesterday, but he talks about paper walls and it's like being willing to go the extra mile to say, someone might say, it doesn't work. Well, I'm going to test it and see if it does work. Push down the fake wall and say, hey, it actually does work. And you tried to tell me it didn't. So I think the mentality of really outcaring the competition.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. And you definitely can get that sense from, you know, the brand that's been built and all the different things you guys put out there. So I think it's really aspirational. It'd be interesting to know sort of the order in which people were hired, because I think a lot of people. There's so many podcasts. Right. And having manpower behind you as a podcaster is. Is challenging at the beginning, especially when monetization is something that doesn't come a lot later. Yeah, but just to sort of paint the picture.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

What number higher were you? And sort of what were the most important ones to start with and then what came a bit later. So in sort of paint the picture of growth.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I think I was higher. Number seven. And to put it this way, for the last almost. Well, the diverse SEO has been around for 5ish years, if you count when we went fully video on YouTube and. And since then, maybe up until a year ago, we only had about 30 of us working on the podcast, which sounds like a lot. But that was the extended team as well. So that was brand partnerships. It wasn't just the direct podcast recording. But before I started, the people that were there were Jack the producer and Berta. He used to. She now works on the long form, but used to do the trailers before amazing trailer teams joined. And then there was Grace and Holly in socials and then Emma and PR Harry in research. We only have one researcher at the time. Now there's an amazing massive research team across Flyte and then a few other people like Steve's assistant, so his manager, Dom. So it was very small at the start. And then when I started, there's almost been like hiring times rather than. Not intentionally. Yeah. So it'd be like a hiring block. And so when I started, I was the first of maybe five or six of us that were new. So it was like a good chunk of people starting. So when the trailer team started and a few like Jem, who's been there now the same amount of time as me, we all kind of started at once and have built it since then. And then there's been people come and go in between then, but that was kind of the main chunks. There was about 10, 15 of us at the start for the last four years. But I also think it can look like a massive team. But in reality the main core people that work on a podcast can be quite small to still achieve massive results. And we've seen that with our new shows at Flight. So we need to talk begin again. They have a lot smaller teams, so like one producer, maybe one editor. Sometimes the producer is the editor as well, and. And a social person. So it could be two or three people working on it, and they are growing faster than the diary of a CEO.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Wow.

[Grace Miller]

When the diary CEO started. So, yeah, their growth is just phenomenal.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Do you think. Do you think it's because we know so much more about, like, what works and what doesn't now? Or do you think, you know, shows are just trying new things? Like, what do you think is the reason that someone can grow faster now with, like, less manpower?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I think maturity of the industry. A lot more people are consuming podcasts over TV or Netflix. Well, podcasts are on Netflix now, so could be different. But I think maturity of the industry, but also for us, we've learned so much of what did and didn't work at doac that we've then been able to replicate that faster in these new shows. So I don't think everyone across the world is seeing as fast growth in podcasting, but for us, we've been able to see that from the knowledge we've gained over the last five years.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. Amazing. Now, with your role specifically, is there something that you. It's like your bread and butter in terms of a test. Like, you're constantly testing this one thing.

[Grace Miller]

Steve says it so many times, but thumbnails. But if I was to say something else that's not thumbnails or titles and that's on YouTube, it could be call to actions. So how do we ask people to subscribe? We. If you look back through every DIAC episode, you'll probably see a different call to action every five to 10 episodes. We want to see what works, what doesn't. And also you don't want it to become stale. It's like, like subscribe. Comment on YouTube is so generic. So how do we make it a bit more fun? How do we innovate? And always testing with that. So that's been one of the main continuous tests that we've been running for years now.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. And with like, so many things you can be looking at and fine tuning. Is anything you guys ignore on purpose that you're like, we're not even gonna worry about that and we're just gonna focus on other things.

[Grace Miller]

Oh, I like that. I don't think there's anything we actually ignore, I think because, well, maybe in the. I'm trying to think in the back end of YouTube if there's anything we ignore. There's some things we don't look too deeply into. Like, we probably don't really look too deeply into gender or age because we're so focused on just growing an audience. We don't mind who comes and listens as long as they're happy and interested in the content. But I would say we call it 1% and everything matters. So whether it's the fire here or the scent in the room or the music that's on when someone walks in, every single thing matters to Steve and the Dara Visio team.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, it does strike me as like a very attention to detail, but I was curious, like is there anything, I suppose like at large people think matters.

[Grace Miller]

But doesn't, you know, that they think matters but doesn't.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Oh.

[Grace Miller]

I actually don't. I think we just like anything can matter no matter what. It depends on what you're working towards. So YouTube analytics, for example, is so detailed.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, I honestly feel like I need a degree to go through it.

[Grace Miller]

Like one of my favorite ones that they not a promo for YouTube but I do love YouTube is the new. They've brought out the three different types of viewers now and it's like new, returning and like not recent. But there's another word for. I can't remember the name because I've been on a flight, but I thought that was really interesting. Not that you'd use it every day, but it's quite interesting to know how, who's coming back to your content, why and how often are they coming back. So I actually think the more you dive into YouTube, the more it can be useful. Whether it becomes too much and you focus on the wrong things is probably another question. But we dive into things when we think of a hypothesis or I do sit a lot in the back end and find new analytics and new things that might stand out to us.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

If you were like looking at, let's say, the back end of my channel from scratch, what kind of key things would you be looking at in terms of opportunities to be able to improve? Whether it be like click through rate or like just for people listening that also find YouTube analytics like a bit of a minefield and maybe they're just managing it themselves. What are the key things you would like focus on?

[Grace Miller]

I'd be looking at all of your previous episodes and what has performed best in terms of spikes. So you might already do this, but if you're looking at an episode, you'll be able to see the retention graph on YouTube and sometimes there'll be sections, not all the time, but sometimes there'll be sections that have a 20% increase in retention. And it's that moment whether it's to clip and put on socials, whether it's to get more guests similar to that. That is the first one I'd be doing if I was looking at what guests to bring on again and especially on that. It's usually if you have higher retention, hopefully you also have somewhat higher views. So it works both ways. I'd also be looking at where are your subscribers coming from? So are they countries you want to be subscribing? Are they diverse and all over the world? That then obviously helps your brand partnerships, depending on where your brand partners are from. It really depends what our hypothesis and KPIs and goals are. But if it was growth, I would definitely be looking at what's performing in the backend, but also what's not. And then the other one is the Thumbnail testing on YouTube is my favorite. So they have literally given us a tool that no one has ever been able to create before because they didn't have the backend. And even though it can be really small numbers between the performance, I think the more you test, the higher the separation should become one day because you'll test something so diverse that it will actually hopefully we say 1 in 10 will be a success out of experiments, but hopefully after you've done 10, maybe one will be a really significant difference. And so we're constantly testing thumbnails and not just on new episodes on back catalog as well. So how can you revive those old episodes to get views?

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. And you know how it only gives you like 3 thumbnails to add in? Do would you guys do like three and then how long would you run that for before you go with a winner? And then would you I assume, test another three and then so on and so forth. We.

[Grace Miller]

So they run out for us. So it'll. Well, actually it depends on what show and how many views you're getting that then becomes statistically significant for YouTube. Oh yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Then it picks one. Yeah.

[Grace Miller]

When once it picks a winner, sometimes it'll say inconclusive results because it's not statistically significant, which is okay because YouTube's telling you the truth. But then we'll rerun it. The thing is though, that I've seen lots of podcasts doing is doing different styles. So they might do the first round is just text that they're changing. The second round might be imagery that they're changing. So you're constantly iterating and experimenting on that to see what works, what doesn't. And you can be doing it on all episodes at the same time, which is quite cool. So it's kind of a never ending Game of thumbnail testing.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, yeah. And you're true. And you're right in the sense of it's good to go back. And because there's evergreen videos that are continuously performing, it's good to keep those alive.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

In terms of you and your role, can you share with us one experiment that you have personally run or like brought to the table? Like just walk us through how you came up with the idea and what it actually involved. I'd love to hear like the practicality of what you actually do or an example at least. Yeah, yeah.

[Grace Miller]

Of a successful one or a failed one.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Let's go with a failed one.

[Grace Miller]

Okay. We have a YouTube clips channel which is a shorter version of the Diary of a SEO long episodes, but they're not social media clips, they're still horizontal clips and they're about 30, well, 10 to 30 minute clips. And we post one a day roughly. And we thought, okay, the hypothesis was if we double the videos, will it double our views? Very simple hypothesis. But it can be simple. It doesn't have to be complex to run an experiment. And so we thought, okay, we've got heaps of content, let's just double the content and see what happens. And it was not a success at all. Didn't double the fees. In fact it was, I can't say too many detailed numbers, but it probably hurt our views on the original videos more than what it actually helped. Maybe for other channels, more than one video a day does work, but for us it was not a success at all. But the whole hypothesis around it was, can we see if we can increase views with increased output? And it didn't. So it was a really interesting test for us, something we quickly switched back after, I think we tested it for a month. And we were like, actually this is not it. But also gave us more understanding Intuitive's algorithm to see how does that, doesn't it work? So that's been one of the experiments we ran maybe six months ago to see how did the YouTube algorithm work on that. But there's honestly so many. It could be things from the call to actions and understanding what call to action in the episode gets us more subscribers. Is it something funny? Is it something super boring and generic? Or is it numerical? So we're iterating always on experiments like that.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And how do you decide, like what's worth experimenting on? Is it literally just any idea goes or is there a process of like, no, let's actually see if this is worth putting resources towards.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, we have. So we have company KPIs which are our goals. And then every team has goals as well. And we always want the experiments to align towards those goals. Otherwise, I don't know if you've seen a photo of like all the arrows pointing in different directions. That's what happens if you're just running random experiments. Whereas we want all of our experiments and the arrows to be pointing in the same direction or towards the same goal. So no matter what it is, it could be our goal for we need to Talk. The podcast is to get to a million subscribers, and every experiment should be towards that. And that's kind of how we frame them. And then we go back and go, okay, I have an idea to try the double content. And that would hope, maybe get us to our view goal. And so that's how the experiments kind of form. And if there's something super random, we might still try it just to see. It could be a knowledge experiment as well. I kind of see them as goal experiments which are towards our goals and KPIs, but then sometimes the knowledge ones are valuable. So learning things about the algorithms that our competitors wouldn't know because they're not trying it or learning something new about a platform or a software and things can also be really valuable. So we kind of run multiple different types of experiments across the board.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, no, that's really interesting to hear. What's been your favorite one or favorite learning that you're like, wow, I had no idea that I would even learn that from running this experiment.

[Grace Miller]

There's honestly so doing it for so many years now. There's so many. I'm trying to think I'll take notes.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

But I think if we keep it short. Have one.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I know my favorite favorite one. Oh, I think it would be on Spotify. When we started doing. We basically started moments which are kind of our Spotify's version of clips. And we've been playing around with the timing and understanding what's the optimum length to keep viewers at high retention. And we have played around with it for so long and have been able to find like the exact length. And we still constantly experiment. It's never any. We've been able to find the exact length to keep the optimum viewers, which then obviously full circle allows better opportunities for the podcast, better brand partnerships, better overall retention. So I think it's the almost the fine tuning. It's not something super dramatic, although I do love the massive innovations and experiments, but it's the fine tuning things like testing a length of time. How do you test the length of your episodes to see what is the optimum time for people to stay. If you push it an extra 30 minutes, does your attention also increase that amount of time? And I think that's kind of one of my favorite parts of experimenting and the learnings behind it of those small tweaks that can add up to the big experiments.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

So interesting. Obviously, like, a part of experimenting is failing.

[Grace Miller]

Like.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And I know you have this, you know, internally have this model, or Steve has this model of, like, failing fast. Yes, but emotionally, that can be a little tough sometimes. How does someone build the capacity? Like, say they're not, for example, in your shoes, like, working for a company that has the budget and resources, and they wanting to do that on their own for themselves. How do you build the capacity to fail fast without losing confidence in yourself?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I think it's setting. So you obviously have your goals, personal goals, work goals, whatever, and then setting little experiments within those goals. And whether they go right or wrong, it doesn't matter. And what matters is the learning from it. So I guess the whole point of it is not. And even Steve says this all the time. He's like, it's not the success or the failure that matters. It's that you tried.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And he.

[Grace Miller]

I guess I'm not going to speak on behalf of him, but I'll speak on behalf of myself. If I had to choose between someone who was going to only experiment because it was a success or a failure, or only try for successes or try because they want to find the answer, it's the try because they want to find the answer, not just because they want to achieve something. And it doesn't matter what that answer is. It's just that you've tried. And even if it comes back Inconclusive, we say 7 in 10 experiments come back inconclusive. And that's kind of industry standard of what I've heard people say across the whole experimentation world. And so you have to run seven experiments before you even get a success or a failure. It's a lot. And especially as a solopreneur, a solo creator, it can be hard. But I think it's. If we have seven days in a week, can you run one tiny experiment every day? Like, set aside 15 minutes, 30 minutes to try and experiment, Whether it's testing a different thumbnail, whether it is even things on social. There's so much you can play around with and being able to test that, put it in and see what happens.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Very interesting. Before we kind of take this and talk about on a Personal level. Because I'd love to know how you maybe apply this in your personal life. Can you? Very high level. Let's just go with like YouTube, Instagram and Spotify. What would be like maybe two things people can test in each of those platforms.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. So let's start with YouTube, obviously. Thumbnail testing and title testing. Amazing ones. There's also the AI feature that is almost like a brainstorm feature. So if you are a solo creator, it's kind of like having a social media manager or a YouTube strategist. Yeah. To help go back and forth with. And I know some people, not in our company, but other creators in the US who've been using it on their podcasts and they. The ideas they've got from the YouTube feature have actually performed the best on their channel.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Wow.

[Grace Miller]

So really they're not lying, they're giving us all of the information and we just need to use that information. And then there's so many other things on YouTube, whether it's the end screens that they could also experiment with. So you see really high retention from the people who stay the longest. How do we then get them to convert to more episodes or get them to subscribe? That's YouTube. Spotify. Comments. Get people to comment. It really shows up in the algorithm. And also obviously basic but subscribing. So the CTA is, how can you play around with what are the CTAs in your episode. And the other one that some people miss out on is chapters. I think that can be really important.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Like timestamps, right?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, yeah. Putting timestamps. And so many podcasts don't do this. And I'm like, oh, where was I up to? And then I might bounce and leave because I've lost it and I'm not going to come back. And then Instagram was the other one, wasn't it?

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yes.

[Grace Miller]

Trial reels. They have literally made that so that you can experiment and see what works and what doesn't for non subscribers. So the platforms are making experimentation tools. It's just about using them. The other one is they've got the translation tool now on Instagram as well. Yeah, I saw this yesterday. Yeah. And I got served a woman speaking in a foreign language and then it was English and I didn't even know she was speaking in another language.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

I had the same experience yesterday.

[Grace Miller]

It's so weird, but amazing.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And then it was like AI translated. Yeah.

[Grace Miller]

What?

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And I changed it back. I'm like, she's Spanish. What the hell?

[Grace Miller]

But I think it's so cool. Because I never would have probably consumed the content had it not been in English because I only speaking well, I know a little bit of French from school. Again, failed at that. But yeah, I wouldn't have consumed it. But it's amazing. Instagram has done that and it's probably one of the best translation softwares I've seen online of Instagram. Building it into the platform, the lip syncing, it's really, really well done. Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Crazy. Hey.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. So I think overall it's more using the tools that are there. You don't have to come up with anything super innovative. It can be as simple as just try using those things to your advantage.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. Yeah. Really good tips. Thank you for sharing. What about you in your personal life? Like, do you find now you do apply this approach of, like, experimentation more since you've grown in the role? Was this always something you kind of had in your personality and what does that look like?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I think I have always had it in my personality. I'm the oldest sibling and I. We joke within our household because there's a video of me actually when Liam was born and my dad has the camera on with the red light and I'm like, why is the light on? Why is the light on? And I just couldn't understand why the light was on the camera. And it's the curiosity. And that's something. When I do lots of talks, my first slide is, are you curious? And how many times do you ask why? And the whole point is that when we're children, obviously you have a child now, so I'm sure you'll get this as they grow up. But children ask so many more questions than us and they're curious and they're not afraid to be stupid or dumb.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

It's not a concept. No.

[Grace Miller]

And also how amazing to ask questions and be curious about the world. Whereas when we get to adults, you don't want to look stupid at work, or lots of people don't want to look stupid at work. How do you ask more questions if you don't want to look stupid? And so something at flight that's been amazingly brought down, not only from management, which I think is important, but throughout our culture is saying I don't know to things. So you can ask me a question, I could answer. I don't know. Because it's better than lying.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Grace Miller]

I'm not going to lie and tell you an answer that's not true. And so I think from childhood up until now, I've always had that in me of being curious. Asking questions, not really settling for an answer as well. Someone could tell me something and I'd ask more questions. Not in a rude way, but in an inquisitive way. And so I've always had kind of that experimental, curious mind. But failure is still hard, even though I failed lots of times in my life, mainly in exams, but thank God.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

They'Re in the past.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, but it's funny because I said this on another podcast, but there's so many that I. Classes I succeeded in. But then hilarious that I also failed in the class. But isn't that something telling you that it's where your passion lies? And we even have in flight, we do a Friday quiz that's like, I think it's some quiz online. It's a joke, just as part of our culture. I almost fail at it every time because I'm.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Was it like trivia or something?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, it's trivia. And I'm so bad at that. No, I don't really watch the news because I'm so just obsessed with my work. And every waking hour is podcasting creators, how do we grow the media world? And if it was a quiz about that, I'd probably be way better. But because it's a quiz about general knowledge, I have no idea. But I think it's the inquisitiveness and just finding out why and truly becoming the best in your area.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

I really resonate with this curiosity. Like, for me, this was something that was within me. And so when I was sitting in my corporate job as a lawyer and basically paper pushing and not really connecting with others, I needed that touch point with people because I was curious to learn and grow. And that's what I mean. I'm just thinking you should have a podcast if you in the future, maybe it's a really nice outlet to actually be able to explore that aspect. And I think that that is what has allowed me to do this for five years. Because I am just curious. It's not like I'm forcing myself to sit here and ask you a checklist of questions. It's such a nice way to be able to experience the world because you realize there's only so much you know. And you know. It's a classic saying, like, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It's so true. And your curiosity really is the bridge that takes you there.

[Grace Miller]

It is. And that's why Steve started the Diver was because he didn't start it because he needed a podcast. He started because he wanted to learn from other people. And he only will interview guests he wants to learn from.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yep. Yeah, I'm the same.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, yeah. And still to this day he would turn down so many. I'm like, why are you turning down that person? But it's because he wants to learn from and actually learn more knowledge. And it's cool because you can then apply it in your life 100%.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And speaking of. So I love this idea of experimentation. I think it's really cool that you get to do it in work. It's sort of a part of your personality. I think there is an opportunity here for people to experience like personal growth when they tap into this sort of aspect. Is anything practical that listeners can maybe take as an experiment in their personal life that can create like some real tangible change that they can try after this episode?

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I think it's about. I'm very goals person. So I've already set my 2026 goals. We wrote them down. I actually wrote them down way before 2026 to think on them and then adjust and rewrite.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

We're so similar. Oldest child also.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, I love that. But it's nice to have some goals in mind even if I change on them. Yeah. But whether the people listening have goals or not yet, I think it's important to at least set something. And it doesn't have to be something major, it could just be something you want to achieve this year and then experimenting around that. So whether it's something little or something major. So one of the goals I've set myself is I've been so focused on work the last four years, I was like, actually I want to start sharing more. And Steve told us this in the early days. He said, stop telling me all the information. He said, go and share it with the world. And he said, share what you're learning from the books, the podcasts I listen to with everyone else. So that's something I've set myself this year. And it's hard because I work a full time job and that is my life. And then also trying to do content creation on LinkedIn or Instagram on the side and finding time for that. But I'm setting myself little experiments all the time. So whether it's to record a video or whether it's to go in and analyze the analytics and understand what worked and what didn't, and creating an experiment off that. But it's again 1%. It's the doing something every day that then will compound to the success. So hopefully me putting in time, even if it's 10 minutes every day to try and work towards that goal. But I think whatever the listener's goals are, whether it's something personal, whether it's health or finances, I even did it with finances last year. I started doing, if I don't buy lunch, I then put that money I would have spent on lunch into a pot just to then see it compound. Not for any reason, wasn't saving for something, but to see how much money I was spending on lunch and be aware. So it could be. I run so many little experiments in my life, but just trying something new. And also you can always send them to me and I can help brainstorm their experiments.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

So, yeah, I love this because I think for people who are, you know, they get dopamine from ticking things off or completing things. Like, this is a. A way to like, gamify the experience of doing the 1% and working towards your goal in a way that's like a little unconventional. Like, I like thinking about it. It's like you have a goal and then you have like micro goals and they form like your steps, like one step in the staircase every day. But like to look at it as an experiment, like, really gamifies it. And I think if you know yourself as that kind of personality, where that will motivate you or like, I don't know, just add a bit of fun to every day. Because I think we often just forget about that, like, to have fun in life. Like, we always take things like, really seriously. I think this is a fun way to, like I said, gamify it.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. And I think as well, if you're not trying something new or experimenting, you're not gonna grow. Yeah. At all. You're not gonna become a better person. You're not gonna grow into the goals that you want to achieve. And I loved in Andrew Huberman's podcast, he was talking with David Goggins and he said about willpower and about the mid cigulate cortex in our mind or in our brain. And he basically said, the more you put yourself in uncomfortable situations that you don't like, the bigger that part of your brain grows and you're more willing to do other things. And I was like, okay, how do I put myself in more uncomfortable situations? Whether it's an ice bath, whether it's reading some white. Yeah, white paper that you find boring but you want to learn from. So I really am trying to do that as well and experiment with being more uncomfortable.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

What is at the moment the most uncomfortable thing you're doing this year?

[Grace Miller]

Oh, I Like that for me, which is probably so simple to some people, but it's cooking, finding ways to meal prep. Because health is such as a lot of people's goals are health. But a really big focus for me this year. So finding ways to actually take that time to meal prep and start enjoying that. I love an ice bath. So I'm controversial. I'm the complete opposite of what most people. But I. Yeah. Cooking and food. What's yours? Oh.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

I'm actually. This is the first time I'm going to be saying this on the podcast. I'm actually returning to a full time job which a lot of people might find very, very surprising. But basically so very quickly, I was. I used to work in a corporate job.

[Grace Miller]

Yes.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And then I stepped out because the corporate world is just not for me. I really felt like there was more to life. I started consulting as a lawyer. Yeah. That gave me the flexibility I wanted to have my baby and also have the capacity to do this on. But basically what happened was through one of my clients that I got during that time, I met them in a space where I was running my own business and doing law a bit differently. Right. I'm very commercially minded. I'm not very good sitting in a corporate job. He loved what I was doing so much. He's starting a new company this year and basically asked me to come in, sit in their C suite.

[Grace Miller]

Oh my gosh. Congratulations.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Thank you.

[Grace Miller]

That's amazing.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Very outside of my comfort zone because I've never been in a C suite role and I also never thought I would be working in a full time position with a six month old that really wasn't on the bingo card. It wasn't a part of the balance I had seen, but obviously put a lot of thought behind it and I might do a video later in the future about my decision and kind of what the role is a bit more in depth. But that's going to be an uncomfortable thing, you know, like being away from my daughter but also putting myself in professionally a bit of a different space that's also giving me capacity to grow the team behind the podcast. This is something I'm not giving up. It's. It's very much so important to me. So just like navigating that new season of life is my kind of challenge for this.

[Grace Miller]

That's so exciting.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Grace Miller]

A big change, but really exciting as well. And also a massive congratulations.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Thank you so much.

[Grace Miller]

So, so cool. Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

So I'll keep you posted on that. Just to wrap up before, before I let you Go. I want to talk a little bit about podcasting. What are your thoughts? Do you think podcasts are oversaturated?

[Grace Miller]

No. Even though I know a lot of people think they are. But I don't think people ever say that about the book industry. They're not like, oh, the book industry is oversaturated and there's so many millions of books. I don't think any industry is actually ever oversaturated. If you come in and do it differently, if it's just another podcast that there's so many others out there similar to, I think you could do it in a different way. Like someone I know, a creator in the us he started a podcast called the Rub down, which sounds really rogue. Yeah. The name is interesting, but the concept behind it is they're on massage tables getting a deep tissue massage while he interviews someone.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Okay.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. And I actually don't know how they look at each other because their faces are facing down. I think they're just FaceTime. Yeah. But it gave me goosebumps when he told me because it reminded me of Chicken Shop Date in the early days. And it was almost him taking a concept of podcasting and changing it, doing something differently, whether it works or not. I really hope it does because it's such a cool concept. But I think it's the changing how you do it. And I don't think anything's oversaturated. I think it's just being able to do it differently and AI as well. I think AI is going to be a massive part of podcasting going forward, whether it's AI podcasts, whether it's AI within podcasts. So many different things.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Interesting. It's a bit hard though, like when you're stepping into, like. I just think, first of all, I'm so happy I started 5 years ago, but if I was stepping in now, like, it's hard to experiment in industry. You haven't really dipped your toes in. So is there something in just getting started? Even if it looks and feels like a lot of other podcasts and then iterating as you go, because it's a bit hard to. I don't know, what are your thoughts? Like, can you just experiment?

[Grace Miller]

100. I don't think you should ever go into something and be stuck in that. I think if you. If you went in and you started doing 10 minute podcasts and you actually thought, I want to do an hour podcast now, I think you can grow an audience into that. I don't think you're ever stuck in what you're doing at the start. And I think the best way to do it is to experiment and grow with whatever's happening in the world. Because otherwise what you created, if you started, say someone else started five years ago and they never changed, obviously yours has done amazing and evolved and grown YouTube. And I love your YouTube growth over the years. It's so good. But I think if people started then and did nothing different, they'd probably still be in the same place. And there's a really good graph on Steve's LinkedIn of, of the growth of our YouTube views over from 2019 until now. And every day it's so small at the start, there's almost no growth, and then it just skyrockets and it goes to over 3 million views a day. And that's because it's the trying something new every day. So I think starting a new podcast now, 100% do it. But I think finding that niche or the difference to what's out there and also putting your own spin on it. People come to a podcast because usually because they like the host. That's why they'll come back, not just because of the guest or whoever they're bringing on.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah. And I always say, like, your niche is you. So I mean, I'm also curious to see how that concept goes with the whole massage table. I've seen some other wild ones, like, while they've been on, like, just doing random stuff. So I don't know, like, I don't know about the, how the audio quality and stuff's gonna be in those kinds of things, but it's like just finding a way that makes sense for you. And I always tell people, like, remember your niches. You know, you. And there's one of that. And I think there's something in the compounding effect. When I started, the other podcasters that I aspired to be, like, they'd all been around for a minimum of five years. So I said to myself, right, if I'm taking this seriously, I have to do it for five years before I even think of who's listening. What am I doing this? Why am I doing it if I want to do it? Seriously.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

And so I just hit my five year mark. So I think when you, when you start. Thank you. When you start anything, like, look at who's been doing and how long they've been around. And that's how long it takes for the compounding effect also.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Get to your three mil a day.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah. And it doesn't happen overnight. And I think that's what people want to happen.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

That's what they see because that's when they catch on.

[Grace Miller]

Yeah, but it's not to say it can't as well. Like I think people who already we've seen it with our other shows. Davina and Paul both already had like followings on other social medias, so when they've now started their podcast, it's had really good growth. But it's not to say that you can't start with no following and grow something and it's on any platform. Like Grace, one of my old colleagues started a vlog on YouTube and she's only she committed a year and I think she started in September or October and she's already about to hit 10k subscribers in that amount of time purely because she's so into experimenting, trying to grow and find ways to try new things. So I. Yeah, I don't think it's ever too saturated or the wrong time. I think it's just about how you find that niche and put your spin on it.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Yeah, I love that.

[Grace Miller]

That.

[Host (possibly the podcast host or interviewer)]

Well, I think that's a great place to leave our chat today. Thank you so much for making time during your visit here in Dubai to come and chat with me and maybe we'll do a part two in the future too. I'd love to stay connected.