← The Balance Theory
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- [00:00]
A
What make you think that people will not buy Nike or the big names out there and buy your product? And we were like, they will trust us. Like, complete delusion. That naivety and that delusion actually helps because not knowing is also a blessing.
- [00:14]
B
Today's guest shares how she built belief before the success showed up and the mindset shifts that help her leave the safe path and build a global brand. Joining me is Squat Wolf co founder Anam Khalid.
- [00:26]
A
Things were working out, career was progressing really well. There was always this void that I can do so much more. I can be so much more. We hear stories where people left corporate world because it was toxic. For me, it was very internal.
- [00:38]
B
When you make the decision to walk away from corporate, what was the hardest thing for you that you had to learn to let go of?
- [00:45]
A
It's a completely different world. What I found very different or I had to adapt to.
- [00:51]
B
I am curious, have there been any moments where you've really doubted what you've been doing?
- [00:56]
A
When we took that step, what happened? Unfortunately, because we were very young, we thought, they know better. One thing that I really believe in the state of the business. Business is the reflection of the state of the founders. It will reflect on your bottom line. We have to upgrade ourselves faster and earlier than the business can upgrade itself. Because if we don't work on ourselves and we don't learn the skills and we don't adapt ourselves to the needs of the business fast enough, the business won't follow.
- [01:22]
B
How do you know when it's time for yourselves to personally upgrade?
- [01:25]
A
What we try to do is.
- [01:33]
B
All right, Balancers, welcome back to another episode of the Balance Theory. I have an incredible guest for you guys today. A woman who is very inspiring. Her story has really shaped a lot of, I think, what you see as being possible. She's someone who started in the corporate world, has ventured off and created something so successful and amazing as an entrepreneur today. And I think her journey and her story is one for anybody thinking, is there something else out there? Is there something more for me? And I'm so excited to really learn from her and understand what that really looked like. Not just what we see or read in the articles, but what it actually looked like for her and her personal growth. So joining me today is Annam Anam. Welcome.
- [02:13]
A
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me and thank you for that amazing introduction.
- [02:17]
B
No, absolutely. It's my pleasure to host you today. And as I said, genuinely, I'm really excited to get to know you. And like I was just telling you really Understand who you've become in this process. So take me all the way back to the beginning. I think where your story starts is a very relatable point. It's something I know very well and that is sitting in a corporate job and having this feeling like, is there something more? What else could I do? You know, you have that nudge, right? That feeling. What I want to know, paint the scene for us, but also tell us how did you know it wasn't a case where you're like, okay, I'm just, let me just be grateful for what I've got. Let me just enjoy this good job that I've got versus no, I need to make change in my life.
- [03:05]
A
So as we were talking before we started the conversation, my background has always been big corporate, multinational businesses, companies, global names. And I was very lucky, fortunate to land in the right positions in the right companies from the very early age. My last corporate job was a pharmaceutical company and I was heading the talent function for the entire region. So my position was head of talent. And I was based in Geneva, so I was in Dubai. I was offered this role and I had to be moving to Switzerland to head the function. And I was the youngest in the entire headquarters heading a function. And it was a very, very successful career. But back in 2016 when, so 2015, Vaj and I got married and I was working for Novartis and it's a well known pharmaceutical company. And I was getting promoted like, you know, after a couple of years, a bigger position, a different role. My managers, my leaders were really happy. I was somebody who was always taking a lot of ownership beyond the role that I had. So I was always the kind of person who was thinking like, are we doing the right thing? If I have this responsibility, am I doing full justice to the job that I have? And you know, doing all of that despite of everything that was, you know, I was very responsible and things were working out, career was progressing really well. There was always this void that I can do so much more, I can be so much more. And this is also coming from my background, my, my growing up. I come from a small town in Pakistan and I had always set goals in my life to make progress to, to, to be better than before, to do, to, to be and be like, okay, if I was able to do this before, I can do something even bigger tomorrow. So I always had this. And it comes to that part that, you know, you can be grateful of your getting so much. I had very good paycheck in my last role and even Before, I was very fortunate to have the right roles, right teams around me who saw that talent in me. So there was nothing wrong. Like people. A lot of the times we hear stories where people left corporate world because it was toxic, because it was. They. They didn't have the right people around them. For me, it was very internal. For me, it was like, I can do so much more than this. I can be so much more. So that was the point that I decided that what's the next big thing in my life? Because I started in Pakistan, a very good job right after graduation, and then it was the best multinational company in Pakistan. And then I was like, okay, what's next? This cannot be it. So I moved to Dubai, I got an offer from here, and I moved here. Then another big company offered within Dubai, and then it was Switzerland. So it was always progress. And then I was like, okay, now I'm in the headquarters of one of the biggest multinationals in the world. What's next? So the next was Scott Wolf.
- [06:27]
B
I have so many questions because like you said, it's not a typical story where people are just fed up, toxic, burnt out, and they decide to leave. This is a case where you're like, no, everything externally is good. You know, I have a good life, but I do want something more. Right. So to take action on that into something that's so unknown, I find very interesting. So when you make the decision to walk away from corporate, which I've been in that position as well, corporate to me means you know what to expect. It's very clear what your trajectory can or can't look like. Pay increases often very clear. You then pivot to starting something from scratch. Unknown. What was the hardest thing for you mentally, that you had to learn to let go of? Going from being in corporate to being an entrepreneur.
- [07:16]
A
I think it's a very, very different world. You're completely in a completely different environment. In corporate, especially in big companies, everything is very stable. Even if there are external changes, economic changes, markets shifting, moving, things are really stable internally because the. The companies are built in a way that they have the structure, they respond to things. Yes, sometimes they have to respond quickly, but they're very stable. Like, you don't feel the jerk internally as much. When you are in the startup, everything is completely different. And when you are an entrepreneur, you are the one who is behind building everything. It's a completely different world. There is 100% volatility in every single second of building a business. So it's very, very different. It's what I found very different or I had to adapt to, was the pace of learning. It's very, very different. When you are in the corporate world and you're progressing, you're learning, of course, you're developing yourself, but the people pace at which you are doing that is completely different when you are building a business. The pace with which I was learning, like if I would, just for comparison, if I'm in a corporate, what I would learn in a year, I was learning in an hour or two hours. When we are, you know, when you're building a business, so it's very different pace and you have to be so quick, you are doing everything. So when you are in a corporate world, you are, you're. You're an expert of one thing. You grow in one area of the business generally, right? So it's. And when you are building your own business, you need to know how to be a negotiator, how to be a salesperson, how to be a backend engineer sometimes as well, how to set up a website, how to make product, how to actually, so we are in the apparel business. So what fabrics, what factories, what suppliers, what technologies? You have to be everything. So the pace of learning is completely
- [09:28]
B
different for someone listening who resonates with the type of person you are, which I resonate, and that is, if I was in my corporate job, I treat it like my own. I treat it like it's my business. I go above and beyond. What do you think is the one piece of advice you would give them if they are that type of person and they're thinking, could I be an entrepreneur? What do you think is the line between like, yes, you could try it or no, you should stay in corporate and excel in that path? Because I personally think there is a difference in the type of person that can do both. I'm interested to hear your thoughts because I think that type of personality in corporate is very successful. Whether they can straightaway apply that into entrepreneurship is a different question.
- [10:11]
A
Exactly. I think, and I'll tell you from my experience, I'm nowhere an expert in this area. Of course I can talk about my experience and why I think people like me can get into it, can get into building a business from corporate. If you are okay with living in ambiguity and not knowing much and still having the courage and belief in yourself that you can do it, I think that those are the kind of personalities that they can do it. So I don't come from fashion background. I was very sporty when I was young. I would play all the sports that were available to us in our small city. So I was just very passionate and I don't fear change, I embrace change and I actually look forward to change. It's very difficult for me to stay in one place, stagnant in the same environment. So I look for change and I like challenging myself. So we don't have fashion background, we don't have a battle background, we don't have sports, like working in a sports company kind of background. Both of us, me and Vaj, my husband, my co founder and co CEO. So we have the personalities where not knowing is not a problem, not knowing is. Okay, let's jump into it and let's see what happens. And one thing that I remember, I. I don't know why, but I was just reflecting on this a couple of days ago that I told my husband when we were starting the brand that I, I told him and it was obviously like something we were, we were discussing for six months. We did the research and we took the decision in the end, after six months of debating it, testing it, you know, researching about it. And one thing that I think made all the difference when I told him that I believe we are the two people, no matter what happens, we are the ones who can actually do it. And that belief was there from day one. That I have such strong belief in our, ourselves, that no matter how much the amount of work that it will require, the amount of challenges life will throw at us, the amount of difficulties we have to go through to build this, I think we have the personalities to go through all of that and still make it work. So I think that belief is very important. And not being afraid of challenges and having that courage to face everything head on is something that makes a huge difference.
- [12:49]
B
Exactly what you've just shared, I think, is the secret sauce to most people's success. Because when, when you listen to podcasts, right, and you listen to someone successful, a lot of people will focus on the tips, the habits, the things they're doing, the way they invested their money, the teams they hired. What I personally think is the biggest part of that recipe is the self belief. You need to be able to see it before other people do, because otherwise continue through the days where there are dips, where there are, where there are plateaus where you don't know what's going on. Was that something for you, that self belief? Has that been an inherent part of you? Was that something you had to learn?
- [13:28]
A
I think it's how we have grown up. I think my parents had a big role in that they always gave us all the platforms, the liberty to make our life choices from the very beginning. Like, there wasn't a concept. Like, my mom still complains. She says that she has never asked for permission for anything. She would do things and she would tell us, okay, I'm going and doing it. So just FYI. So, you know, they. I had the environment around me to take my own decisions. And in Pakistan, it's a very different culture. Like you when you are. So girls are raised differently than boys. Boys have more, you know, liberty to make their own decisions and they're more outgoing. But my family was very different. So they raised us all the same way. I had the same platforms, the same opportunities, the same choices that I could make. So it has to do a lot with the confidence that you get from your early growing up. And yeah, so I think it shaped a lot of it. And that belief. It's also a bit of naivety, as I would say.
- [14:45]
B
I think it's what people say, like, delusional.
- [14:47]
A
Yes. So we had this delusion. So back in 2016, when we were starting the business, we had already started it. So we launched our first collection and it was very successful. We basically launched our first six products. And we didn't have the product, but we went out with the message that we are the first ever brand from Dubai engineered for the gym. And you, if you purchase, if you buy our product, you will be the first ever people who will wear the first ever brand that emerged from Dubai. And it's going to become a global business, a global brand. So that resonated with, with people and we were sold out before we had the product, actually. So when the shipment arrived, we packed everything and shipped out because we had the orders. So that delusion in the beginning, we were talking to someone, there was a gym and we approached them and we were like, we want to test out in your setup. They had a small retail space in the gym. We were like, we want to showcase our products because a lot of the personal trainers in your gym were Squat Wolf. So they were the people we worked with in the early days to build the community. And we spoke to the manager of the gym and their question was straight up, okay, like the products, very nice designs and everything. What make you think, both of you, me and Vaj, that people will not buy Nike or Addi or the big names out there, the big sportswear brands, and buy your product? And we were like, they will trust us. Like, complete delusion. Like, there was not a lot of technology at the time. We knew that we want to work on this and our quality was very good from day one. Like, we were very particular about the quality of the products because it's performance products. So. But then the delusion was so strong, like, no matter what, we will make it work. Like, you know, that belief in yourself, that complete naivety that, okay, we don't know anything. And so many people who we hired later on told us that industry experts coming from these big companies, they were all like, we could not take that leap of faith. We knew we have experience, like years of experience working for these companies and we could not take that leap of faith because we know too much. So that naivety and that delusion actually helps because not knowing is also a blessing. Yeah, if we knew how complex it's going to be, we would probably not jump into it.
- [17:17]
B
Yeah, I can resonate with that with the podcast. And you know, when you have you and your husband both in that energy, both supporting each other, both picking each other up, when you're having any moments of doubt or you're unsure, like that's just multiplying that delusion, you know, And I think we call it delusion, but really it's the driving force as to why you can keep going in the face of uncertainty, in the face of ambiguity. Especially coming from a corporate world where things are a lot more mapped out. Like making that jump, having that support, having that mindset, I think is such a, an important part of your story. I am curious though, have there been any moments since you started, what it's been 10 years now since you guys launched, any moments where you've really doubted what you've been doing?
- [17:58]
A
I think when we started bringing these experts from other big companies, because we thought that these people who have been there and done that, they can be that next level, that source of unlocking the next level of growth for the business. So 2020, we were at our inflection point. We actually became global business and we were shipping to 60 plus countries within that Covid period from our Dubai warehouse. And we became a case study for dhl, for even Google Meta because they were like, this was completely opposite and completely unheard of. So there were no businesses that were from Dubai and shipping outwards. All the businesses were coming from outside to Middle east to Dubai. So we were the only ones who were doing the opposite. So we were looked at all with, from all these partners in a very interesting way. So they would call us, ask us questions, do the interviews and stuff. So when all that was happening, there was a very Good momentum with the business. We said, okay, let's now begin building the business properly and let's bring these experts and these profiles to take care of the product, to bring that innovation, to build a very sophisticated supply chain and all that goes on in bigger organizations. When we took that step and when we brought these people in, what happened? Unfortunately, because we were very young as founders, we thought they know better. We thought that they can do a better job than both of us. And we were proven wrong very quickly. Because yes, they had all the knowledge of how it's working in the big companies, but they could not adapt it to a young startup. Because as you asked in the beginning, you know, that switch from corporate to a small startup and building a business, not everyone is capable of doing that. No matter how much you try to teach them, no matter how much you're. You're trying to onboard them, it's very difficult. And what also happened, those people who were apparently experts and we brought them with that mindset that they are the experts and they can do wonders for the business, they kind of started looking down upon our vision and what we were trying to build. And as founders, what, what was the main idea? So that somehow got diluted with very loud people in the room. So that was, I think one of the biggest learnings that no matter how experienced people or, you know, or how many resources you bring, the vision at the end of the day with which you started the business, if that gets lost, everything gets lost.
- [20:56]
B
I suppose it's like a good metaphor, like learning for life in general, right? Like your perspective and your vision should be the number one placeholder. And then you can bring in other people to sort of buffer.
- [21:08]
A
And I think another learning was also that how much you're hammering your vision, it has to be every day, every opportunity you get, every meeting, every town hall, everything that you are doing, you have to talk about that vision so much. We sometimes think that we have talked about it enough and it's landed, but it's not the case. You have to continue as founders. I think the biggest responsibility that we have is to be that storyteller and communicate that vision so much that no one ever forgets it. Because if that is clear, if people are getting behind that, that's the biggest success. Because if people lose that, what is the purpose, why I'm waking up every day? Then you can't achieve that vision. It's very, very difficult. So as young founders, that was the biggest learning that we had to do that more than how much we did
- [22:03]
B
when you talk about your vision. Take me back to that first six months where you're ideating before you launch a business. The vision you had then, is it what you have in the business today? Is it bigger than what you have in the business today? Or have you already surpassed the initial vision?
- [22:18]
A
It's really interesting that you're asking this question and it's exactly the same. It's really the words, how we frame it has changed. When we launched our first collection, we said we are born in Dubai, engineered for gym. So that was our main message when we launched and it was the main message for a couple of years until that shift happened with the senior people into the business. But then once we learned the lesson, our vision is that's what made this business what it is today. So we now say that we are the tagline of the brand is the hunt for more. And the secondary line that we use is from Dubai to the world. And that was exactly the vision from day one, that we want to be the first ever brand that started from this region and is playing on a global scale. That, you know, that two nobodies who came, you know, expats, living in a country building something that has never happened. So it was from day one the same dream and we are working towards the same, exact same mission.
- [23:26]
B
I love that. And it's definitely, you know, proves your point, which if you, if you build something that's genuine, like something true to you, it's easy to upkeep that and be able to be that voice for that message. If this isn't the first episode of ours that you've watched and you keep coming back for more, then it's probably fair to say, you know, that this show is for you. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss what's coming up because I'm telling you the next conversations are going to be so powerful in terms of you personally. Right. Like moving through, scaling a business like this. Over the last 10 years, what have been some of your, like a vision or goals for you personally that are separate to the business that kind of obviously would work alongside. But let's talk about you, like your personal growth. What are some ways you've grown in the last 10 years doing what you've done is like been such a big pivot in your life.
- [24:16]
A
So I think every entrepreneur is going through so many stages of growth. So. And that requires you. And if you're an active founder, because what happens is majority of the founders are very good from 0 to 1 when the business is at a stage of 0 to 1. So taking it off because there's a lot of passion, the entrepreneurial spirit, as we call it, but then there is a completely different set of skills or personality or leadership level is required to take the brand from 1 to 10. So you can take it off and take it from 0 to 1 with what you have in the beginning. But then that same business, when you're taking it from 1 to 10, it's a completely different skill set that is required. So every day you're challenging yourself. Like when you have senior people, for example, very simple example, when you have senior people in the team who are all older than you and you have to lead them, it's a completely different skill set that is required to make that business work and continue to grow than when you are two people and you started from your bedroom. Sure, it's completely different world. So the amount of learning that we have to go through, the books that you are reading, the podcast that you're listening, the amount of reflection that you have to to do and to find answers yourself is so much needed. Like, we have a coach, we talk, me and Vaj, we both go through. And because we are husband and wife, there is an added layer of complication with everything.
- [25:56]
B
We'll get into that.
- [25:57]
A
Yeah. So we have a coach and we
- [26:00]
B
like a life coach.
- [26:03]
A
Life and leadership together. Because it's again, very difficult for us to separate the two. So mostly leadership and mostly entrepreneurship. But yeah, life gets into it as well. So we do discuss all the problems that we are going through. When we did our seed round, for example, for investment, then we did our series A completely different. Like when we did the seed, it was friends and family and it didn't require any structure, any like. And then the next one, then when we did the series A, at least more than six months, I think it took six months of due diligence. I remember, like, it's so different from one stage to another stage. And now we are working towards our series B. And again, it's completely different. Like the things that you learned, yes, they help, but the world is now completely changed. The circumstances are different. The business is on a completely different level. The people you're talking to are completely different kind of people. So, yeah, every day there is learning and the faster you grow, the faster you have to learn.
- [27:11]
B
I think this kind of concept, right, of like, what got you to 0 to 1 won't get you to 1 to 10. Like, you hear it a lot. But it's funny when you actually think about Building or growing something. We don't often remind ourselves that that's the case. So do you think it's true for anybody who feels stuck or like they've plateaued? It's maybe because obviously there's many different reasons but it could be that they're the same person trying to get worked from 0 to 1 to go from 1 to 10. Do you think that's often a reason we can get stuck?
- [27:39]
A
I think one thing that I really believe in and me and Vaj, we talk about it a lot that I think the state of the business is the reflection of the state of the founders. So if you are as people not in the right place, like if you're, if you're, if your bucket is not full, for example, if you're not enjoying the process, if you're not living it with passion anymore, it will reflect on your P L it will reflect on your top line, bottom line, it will reflect on the pace of the growth of the business as well. So it all depends and if, if it is a founder led business because there are a lot of business where founders yes. Kick it off and then they hire CEOs and operators to run the business. Because we are both co CEOs as well. We have to upgrade ourselves faster and earlier than the business can upgrade itself because we are the driving force. So if we don't work on ourselves and we don't learn the skills and we don't adapt ourselves to the needs of the business fast enough, the business won't follow.
- [28:46]
B
How do you know when it's time for yourself to personally upgrade for then the business to follow? Is there something you look out for? Is it monetary? Is it a feeling like how do you know when it's time?
- [28:56]
A
I think the feeling of being stuck. The feeling that. Stagnation. Yeah. That when you don't find answers, when you're like no, this is not working unfortunately. Because you know we talk about being proactive but I don't think there is any being proactive in this situation because it's so complex. When you have that feeling that okay, we, we need to be the driving force for the business. Not the hurdles like when you're discussing. And a lot of it happens when you're talking when you have a coach or when you have. We are very blessed to have very good investors who are almost like partners with us to build the business so we can voice our concerns without having the feeling of being judged. So we discuss, we bring it up on the table. Board meetings are not like those traditional Board meetings where you know, it's like power game or you're trying to only show the good picture. So we bring our real concerns that guys, we are stuck here or do you have any contacts? Do you know people in the industry who can come and support us in this part of the business? Or this is where we are struggling or these are the kind of, this is the kind of talent we are not able to find. We really need this kind of talent. So the board also works like an advisory board and acts like a sound board as well. And then our coach helps a lot in terms of untangling because there's so much going on. Sometimes your brain cannot process or structure or untangle the thoughts.
- [30:27]
B
You just need to sound bored.
- [30:29]
A
Exactly. The more you talk about it, I find it really helpful actually. The more I talk about it, the more it becomes clear, yeah, what's something
- [30:37]
B
right now, like what season are you personally in right now where you're trying to upgrade or upskill that you feel will take the business to the next level.
- [30:45]
A
I think right now because of the, the regional situation, everything became like so uncertain that I, for now, right now as we speak, like in the moment, I'm feeling really burnt out because we have worked so hard because of this situation and thankfully we are in a very good position compared to other businesses because of course we are local, we are from here. So our efforts are all here and they're translating into, you know, the business is growing, we are hitting the numbers we have, all the channels are performing. So it's really good momentum. Thankfully Alhamdulillah. But it takes a lot of effort, like when things go off plan. And it was a big thing, like it's a huge thing to happen, you know, in the world that Dubai has never seen anything like this. Like yes, there are other things that happen, of course economical and you know, Covid happened. But this is unprecedented situation that we are all going through. And Dubai is really resilient. UAE is very resilient. This region is super resilient. So that's not the concern. But then the things that are, that are business wise, moving, shifting shipments, not arriving targets you have to hit. But you know, of course a lot of the stores are in the malls which are tourist led. Tourists have stopped coming. So there is so much that you have to work and then diversify things and you know, from channels perspective. So if wholesale B2B is performing, then you take your retail revenue and shift it towards that. But then it takes a lot of going into the details, then negotiations Talking to the partners, finding the new partners. So we have worked so much in the last couple of weeks that now it's like, it just feeling, like, really stuck. And then, of course, it takes a toll on our relationship because we are husband and wife, 24, 7, together in the same problem. So the struggle that we have these days is like, how do we make our lives a bit normal? That's what we were discussing with our coach, that what do we do so we can have our bucket full again? Because if we are not happy, if we are not living a normal life or we don't have enough energy, how can we give it to our team members, to our organization, to our leadership, team world? Of course they are, you know, driving the business forward. They're working really hard. So, yeah, that's what we are working on these days. How do we basically come out of this burnout, be able to take a bit of a break and, yeah, revive our relationship as well?
- [33:30]
B
Definitely an important thing to focus on. And I know I keep saying we'll get to you and your husband working together, but we will. I want to share something with you, which I started telling you a little bit before we jumped on the show. So the show's called the Balance Theory. I started this on the basis I had a curiosity and a pain point around this idea of having work, life, balance. And I found it very frustrating because I thought, you know, I'm trying to make time for everything, and I just feel overwhelmed and guilty that I'm not making. I'm not really doing much of anything right. It was like all this, everything was a priority, so nothing was a priority. So the real heart of the show, and I want to share the theory with you, and I want to see if it resonates with you. For me, personally, I think we have been misguided in the way we've been looking at balance. I think it has forced us to believe that things have to be equal in life, that we have to upkeep all the buckets at all different areas at all moments in life. But the reality is we go through seasons. And I like to think of this like plants in a garden, right? There are winter plants, summer plants. Things have different seasons, and things will need different levels of attention depending on what season it's in. So if you're thinking about your health, your relationships, your work, they each may or may not have a different season. You might have a season where you can upkeep all of them at the same time. You may have a season where work is the Focus or now you're saying, you know, like relationship becomes the focus. It's the season for your relationship. And so for me it's about saying, okay, what season am I in? What's the priority and how do I make my calendar reflect that? Because there's no point saying I value my health and then health is nowhere to be seen on the timetable, you know. So for me, it's always been about trying to encourage people, okay, firstly identify what season are we in, what's important right now. And that will very easily tell you what you need to prioritize and equally what you need to take off your schedule. So if this aligns with you and the way maybe you look at balance in your own life or maybe a way you can relate to it, what kind of things for you now in this season are going to become a priority and things you need to remove. Because the reality is if you want time right to now, have a bit of a break or take a bit of a rest or recharge your relationship or yourself, something has to come from somewhere else. It's just the nature of it. How are you going to be looking at that in this next phase?
- [35:43]
A
First of all, love the theory.
- [35:45]
B
Thank you.
- [35:46]
A
Love the concept because I think we have been told so much about this and sadly I was on that side of telling and talking about work, life, balance because of my background. But I think it's a completely wrong as a concept. I don't believe in it now at all. It's exactly like what you were saying that I think it really depends on which phase of life you are in. And I'll tell you from my experience when I was in the corporate world, there was a lot of quality time that I had. So as I said, it's a very structured life. So I was very responsible, accountable for a lot of of things. I was doing a good job, but it wasn't like I'm working 18 hours a day. It was like, okay, you know, a typical 9 to 6 and I wasn't fulfilled. I always questioned and felt why it's not giving me any happiness. Like why am not. I'm not, you know, that having that feeling of being fulfilled, content. Yeah, like, you know, it's. Why is it not making me happy? I'm successful, I get really good bonuses, I travel because of work. I used to travel a lot and I love traveling. So I'm getting everything from that job.
- [37:04]
B
On paper, all the boxes are ticked,
- [37:06]
A
all the boxes are ticked, but it's not making me happy, like really happy. From inside. And there was a lot of work life balance perfect. So that. And that was one of the reasons I started Squatroof, because I knew I can do so much more and I can really feel happy if I'm doing something which I'm building myself. So I don't come from an entrepreneurial background or family or I've seen entrepreneurs in my life. It's not the case. It's just that I knew that there is a void that I need to fill by building something of my own. So I lost all that work life balance completely. But it made me so much more happy than I was when I was in the corporate world. So it really depends on which phase of life you are in and what do you want. For me, my whole life is driven by goals. And for every phase of life, I had always set different goals. And from very young age, so when I was finishing my school, I wanted to study in a very good university. And in my town there was no good university. And I wanted to. To. To study business. So that was a goal that I set for myself. I was like. And I don't come from a very wealthy background, so. And good universities were private universities. So I was like, okay, what do I do? So I applied for scholarships in all the, you know, good private business schools. And they were great. So connected to the grades. So if you get good grades, the next semester is going to be on scholarship. So I would work so hard because that was the goal that I have to graduate from a top university, private university, which I know I cannot afford, or my parents can't afford, which they of course worked very hard as well to support with all that. But that was the goal in that phase of life. So everything went into achieving that goal. Then the next phase was, okay, now I have to get a very good job in the top company in the country. Then that happened and I obviously had to work really hard to get there. Then the next one was, okay, how do I gain international experience? Because this is. This is what I have achieved. So every stage of life there was a different goal. And when we were starting Squat Wolf, this was the goal that we have to make the first brand from this region that can play on a global scale. So we are. And it's not. I won't say I'm patient, I'm persevere as a person. So I would do everything in my power to achieve that goal. It can take years, it can take a lot of hard work. But then the thing is, because you're moving every day towards that goal, it's fulfilling, it's not draining. Yeah. You can be burnt out and you can fix that by taking holidays or taking a bit of a break or doing something that you enjoy. So those things are fixable. But then when you're working towards your achieving your goals, it needs, it should energize you, should not drain you.
- [40:11]
B
Yeah, exactly. It is, it's very much like, okay, what season am I in? What goal am I working on right now? And that fulfillment being energizing is a really good point because I started the podcast when I still had my corporate job and I went from, you know, feeling this void, feeling this gap, to actually being energized and actually enjoying my job again because I had an outlet. Right. For this thing that I was missing. But you know, if we come back to the idea of work life balance, I think so many entrepreneurs and people who have been very successful have this mentality of if you don't hustle and you know, if you want balance, you're not going to have the success you want in life. You know, like, you can't have work life balance if you want success in life. Right. And I really want to challenge that because like I said, I think having work life balance is not sit back, relax and have this very soft approach to making sure everything's equal. I think it's no, get clear on what your priorities are. What do you want to achieve? What do you need to put in place in your life to achieve that? That is your balance. Right. You need to define it and own it in whatever season you're in. And that's how we come to a point of saying, because then, like this season, I'm in now I'm all in on my family. I have a nine month old daughter and my husband here. We're the only ones here. And I'm all in on my business and what I'm doing with work. So, yeah, some people might say you don't really have a social life, but it's not a priority for me right now. So I don't feel that sense of imbalance. You know, I'm very clear on what matters to me and I've, I'm owning it in this season.
- [41:35]
A
Exactly.
- [41:36]
B
So for you now, you work with your husband, you've gone through this period, now you're recalibrating what is going to be important for you guys in the next couple weeks to reset, recharge and you know, re energize yourselves. What, what's going to, what's your balance going to look like.
- [41:51]
A
So last night I was actually planning a staycation so I booked it for me and my husband to because we have worked so much that now it's becoming like he's. So when he's really burnt out he starts getting sick a lot. So he catches the bug and it's like flu and sore throat for me it's like brain fog. It's a sign that okay, now we need to stop. Enough is enough. So I booked a staycation for next weekend and then after that we are going to Thailand to Koh Samui. He's planning that. So we have divided the roles and every time we take a break it's just so refreshing. So good that when we come back we can give like 200% to the work that we are doing to the teams that are, that are looking for, you know, our support, support our decision making. Because when you can think clearly, you're making better decisions. You're taking the right calls because your brain has the processing power to understand everything that's going on and take the right call. And you're not just taking calls because there is no time. You're rushed, you have to do it but you don't understand problem fully. So again, going back to the same concept when your bucket is half full, you are never going to give it to your business, to the people around you, to your family even. So yeah, it's very, very important to have that balance in life because we are not machines, we are not robots, we are emotional beings and we need our time to feel good, to feel happy, to feel loved. When you're 24, seven working, you don't have those emotions, there's no space for it and then you burn out. Basically your energies is completely gone. So yeah, we're working on it to re energize basically love it.
- [43:53]
B
It's equally important to know what are the signs and signals, what are my upper limits, lower limits. So you know when to recalibrate. Because again another belief I have is that balance, it's not just different between you and I, it's different for me in different seasons. But that could also mean on a day to day basis. And what I like about the staycation, right, it's short but you don't need a lot of time to recharge. Something as simple as like one or two days to just completely hit the reset button can make a big difference. If we go even deeper on that. Do you have anything that you personally do say having a crazy day but you really need to reset your Energy. Do you have anything for yourself that's like, okay, I just need to reset my energy now like for tomorrow, for this afternoon or before I go on this podcast. Like, like anything you use, any habits you have that help you kind of re energize yourself in the busyness of day to day life.
- [44:44]
A
So workout really helps exercise. So exercising, yes, moving your body. And I love doing hits. Yesterday we went for a run as well in the morning. So test our new running leggings. So it also gives a lot of reasons for us to keep moving because we are testing the products ourselves. So anything that we make, we are like, okay, guys, if we cannot wear it, if we cannot use it, it's not happening. So we are involved in the process of making the products. So for me, the best outlet is exercise.
- [45:16]
B
Love it.
- [45:17]
A
Really, really good. Like whatever you like. I mean, if you like low intensity can be yoga pilates. For me it's more high intensity workout or running. So whatever your vibe is like, you know, moving is such a huge, like it's therapy.
- [45:36]
B
I agree.
- [45:37]
A
It's. It makes a huge difference. And your mood. Always notice this after your workout. You're in such a good mood, you
- [45:45]
B
never feel worse after a workout. Never. Sure, you might be sore, but you don't feel worse.
- [45:49]
A
Exactly. And then the glow that it gives you as well.
- [45:52]
B
Yes.
- [45:53]
A
Right. So all the benefits.
- [45:56]
B
I agree. You know, I don't think a lot of people can say that they can build a business with their partner or their husband, you know, even best friend. How do you guys know when to stop being co CEOs and be husband and wife and vice versa? Is there a clear line in the sand? Is, is it something you're still working on? Like, talk to me about that dynamic.
- [46:18]
A
First of all, it's not easy. It's very, very, very difficult because when you're talking to your colleagues or team members, you have that professional filter on always. Right. It's easy to communicate in a very formal way. Even if you're communicating about something that's hard or something that's difficult to communicate, you can do it because you're in a formal setup. You can't do that with your partner because you have an emotional bond with that person. So no matter how formally or how, how much you, how many filters you put in, it's going to, if it's a difficult point, it is going to hit hard. Right. It's very difficult to sugarcoat it. Or if you sugarcoat it, then the message won't land. So it won't work how we have learned over a period of time doing this for 10 years now. What we try to do is we tell each other the amount of trust we have on each other. So there will be disagreements. There are disagreements even on a daily basis, weekly basis, big decisions, big strategy calls that we are taking. Which one is the next market or where do we open our new warehouse or how do we start doing e commerce or open a retail store in this new market. So there's so many decisions, big and small that we are taking and they're bound to be disagreements. There are two people who see the world very differently with very different backgrounds. So what we try to do is, what we have done is this is your area of expertise, this is what you lead. And this is my area of expertise. This is what I lead. If you have full trust on me, let me lead this part of the business. I will keep you updated. Of course it cannot happen that two CO CEOs are working. They don't know what's happening in their worlds. So we have founder catch ups twice a week where we sit down and we update each other what is happening and then we decide which are the areas or which are the decision points where each of us has to be there. Like for example, if it's. If something that I'm working on, it's really important strategically I would ask him, do you want to join? Because we are doing this so it will be important for you to be part of this and same from his side. So we have worked on this methodology where we trust each other. We believe that we are capable enough to take those calls and we know that this is the area of strength of Waj and this is my area of strength. So he backs down when he knows this is Anam's area and I back down when I know this is his area. He's really good at it. Like he's a. He's an excellent salesperson. So I will never sit down and tell him or give him advice how to do the sale. Never. So and he knows that how strong I am when it comes to structuring things and building the processes. So he would not, you know, come and tell me this is the right way of doing it because we have learned and understood each other's strengths. So we play each other's strengths rather than go. Rather than pushing each other or giving each other negative feedback because that becomes a. And sometimes you have to, sometimes you have to talk through things like. But in a way that, because we are always in the public eye we are husband and wife and we are always in front of the team. So how we are acting in the weekly trade meetings, monthly meetings, board meetings, everyone has always this switch on their husband and wife, how they're acting, and we are very conscious of that. So we do our alignment sessions separately. We always take each other in confidence that, okay, this is about to happen. Beware that, okay, this is something that we will discuss strategically. This is our stance. So then we are seen as co founders and co CEOs and people who are aligned. So they are not two different visions. There's one vision and we are aligned on that vision. So it has taken a lot of work and it is still today. It is a lot of work because it's also our relationship then having the same positions. Half of the organization is reporting into me, half of the organization is reporting into him. So how do we make those synergies? How do we still stay connected? Takes a lot of work, a lot of discussions, a lot of reflection. It's not easy.
- [51:08]
B
I can imagine. Although everything you've said, I think is really good food for thought for everyone listening just for their own relationship. Like, how do you just take what you've shared as how you have learned to work together in business and actually just experience, you know, take out some points for how to just make a relationship work. I've had someone on the show before and we were talking about relationships as something. It's like a skill you learn and you get better at over time, but it's something you have to proactively work at. So I think, you know, I don't think a lot of people listening would be running a business with their husband or their partner. But I think what you've just shared is very interesting to just think about as ways to better work together. Because whether you're building a business or you're just, just building a life together or a family together, you are co authoring a story and you have to be on the same page. And those lines of communication are so important. So I just think that's interesting what you shared. Do you have any strong boundaries where you're like, when we're at home on the couch, we don't talk business like anything that's like a line in the sand where you're like, this is the. This is the line for us, Impossible. Yeah, I know anything you try to
- [52:11]
A
do so you know when you.
- [52:14]
B
When.
- [52:14]
A
So for us, when we are going to bed and sometimes. So my brain is always working, I'm always reflecting, always thinking of things that happen during the day or during the week, Any difficult topics. So my brain never stops. And Vaj is really good at it. He can. When he's on bed or when he's. When we are trying to, after dinner, just, you know, what's tv, Friends, whatever. Like anything that's, you know, that we can play, that doesn't require brain power. Yeah. And you're just switching off. He's very good at it. He can stop thinking. If something is bothering me, I will keep thinking about it until I solve it. And then he has this rule. We cannot talk about work before we go to bed. Cannot. Because then you can't sleep. And then the next day is going to be horrible. So we try to follow this rule that I stop looking at emails. I stopped. I turn off my laptop. I don't talk to him about any issues at night, at least close to bed. So, yeah, this is what we try to follow. But yeah, dinner table, very difficult. Dates, very difficult. All we have is because even if you try to talk about something else, somehow work finds its way to be the center of discussion. So it's hard. We don't push it anymore. We used to. Earlier we would push it, but now, yeah, we've accepted the fact that this is the constant part of our lives.
- [53:42]
B
Yeah. It's so integrated into who you guys are, who you're, you know, you're growing as people within this business and as a relationship in this business. It's such a cornerstone of your life. But I think that's a good rule. You know, like, it's always interesting to just hear how are people setting those boundaries in their own life? We're getting close to the end. But I do want to ask you, as, you know, the woman in the relationship. I find for me personally, when I'm at work and I'm in that energy of just, like, doing, getting things done. Momentum versus being at home and being a wife. Like, I myself, personally, I'm quite a nurturer and I really have to. When especially because I'm working from home. Like when I walk out of my study, I really have to. To, like, shift my energy because I can find. I can be very, like, formal with my husband sometimes. Like, I'm still wearing my work hat. Like, he's. He's literally said to me sometimes, like, I don't work for you.
- [54:40]
A
Like, what? Just said that so many times. Yeah.
- [54:43]
B
And I'm like, okay, it's just a reminder. Like, I need to just change my tone and like, shift out of that energy for you how do you find, like, do you consciously try and like shift out of more masculine kind of working, doing energy to a bit of a softer energy? Do you find it's more a natural thing for you? Any thoughts around that?
- [55:00]
A
So Vaj and I, we have been together for so before we got married, we knew each other for 10 years and we were together, so we studied together. So we are each other's best friends. We don't have a big friend circle, we don't hang out, we don't like going out on dinners and parties with friends. So everything that we do socially is between the two of us or with our families. So he's a family guy. I'm very close to my family, my siblings, my parents. So everything revolves around this. We have a very small world where everything is between the family or between the two of us. So for us, I think how we have evolved, we have learned about each other so much that I don't have to be conscious of that. At home I have to be the wife and at work I have to be the CEO or co founder. I think we have evolved in a way that we have seen each other's all phases of life. We met when I was 15 and he was 16 years old right after school. So we have literally grown up together. So you know, how as people you evolve as different, you know, in different stages of your life. We have evolved together the, you know, the passions that we have. So we both love traveling. That's our outlet, like when we want to live, that's traveling for us. So we have such similar interests that it's not. It's not like a button that I have to switch on and off. I think it's. It has evolved naturally that I'm very caring at work as well. So sometimes people come, our team members, and they're like, you give us the feeling of a mum.
- [56:43]
B
Oh, that's nice.
- [56:44]
A
Because if, you know, for example, a small example, someone has a headache, I'd be like, I always have electrolytes in my drawer. Like have this. It's dehydration. Yeah. So I am like that. And I think it's a very good balance because men usually are not like that. Right. When it comes to team, when it comes to building the culture, when it comes to building the. The right organization. For me, it was always the dream that I want to build an organization where people just love working. When they wake up in the morning, they don't have this feeling of shit, I have to go to work. They have the feeling, oh, Yes, I have to go to work. And they can bring their authentic self to work. And they are enjoying. They're doing the work with passion. So we have all the people that we hire. Number one requirement for us is, do you love what you do? Because other than otherwise, it won't work out. Those people don't last in our company because it requires a lot of passion, a lot of grit to build something from nothing. So it's a very entrepreneurial environment. And I take care of people. I love taking care of people. That's my second nature. Beautiful. Yeah. So at home as well. I think it's pretty balanced that way.
- [57:58]
B
Nice. One closing question from me. Dubai seems like it's obviously played such a huge role in the business growth and the success. I saw this quote the other day, and it said, you know, especially as expats living in Dubai, it said, you don't necessarily fall in love with the city, you fall in love with the city because of who it lets you become. So I want to ask you what. Who is Dubai giving you permission to become?
- [58:21]
A
I think it's just incredible how aligned Dubai is with who we are as people. You know, we have on our wall right in front of our offices, we have three values written. And it reminds me so much of, especially when the crisis was going on and, you know, how. How people were showing their grit and how resilient the city is. How resilient Squat Wolf is, how resilient our team is, is just so aligned. So on. On the wall, we have three values, which is progress, performance, and pack. So that's. These are the three pillars and three values that we live by. And progress is number one. As I was talking in the beginning of this discussion, that for me, it was all about progress my whole life, like setting goals for every stage of life and achieving them and moving on and then setting a bigger goal and achieving it. The why is the same. It's exactly the same. It's. So when I came, when I moved here in 2014, I remember we bought the property on JBR. When we got married, the first thing we did, first investment was the house. And then we started Squat Wolf. After that, there was no blue waters and I could like. So I had the view of the beach. It was beach. And then after like four, five years, there was an entire island that was built with the Dubai eye on it. And, you know, one of the best neighborhoods that Dubai has. It's just the progress, the speed with which the city moves, what it offers, this celebration of success. It's really hard to find anywhere in the world. And we have traveled a lot. We go to so many places, and this feeling of celebrating success and learning from each other, like, when you meet successful people here, everyone is like, okay, how can we do? What can we learn from this person? What can we do to become like this person? Everyone is listening to the success stories and trying to follow those success stories, and having money is not looked down upon. Having money is like, okay, you have money because you've done something great in your life. Tell me about it, so I can do it as well. So have this. This vibe, this. This culture, you don't get anywhere. And it is so aligned to how we have built Scott Wolf as well. That grit, that resilience, that bouncing back, even with this situation that was happening. Thankfully, the whole team worked so hard, and they were like, we will fight it, and when this is all over, we will come out as winners. That is the sentiment everyone has in the team, which is so aligned with the city we are in. So, yeah, we are blessed, honestly, that we started Squattle from Dubai.
- [61:12]
B
Yeah, I can definitely mirror everything you've said. This city. You know, I think the reason it's rare and it has that vibe is because not a lot of other cities are developing and growing at the speed Dubai is. You know, it's probably one of the newer cities in the whole world, whereas everywhere else is sort of. It's already grown, it's set in stone. It is how it is, and they're just, you know, making small improvements. So it's interesting when you think about how a city itself is growing and evolving and how that energy spills into the people who live there. And I also think that's why I've loved hosting the podcast here so much, because I have been able to learn from people who are mirroring lives, successes, and things that I genuinely want to learn and grow from. So for anyone listening who's just been thinking about living in Dubai, 100% move here. It's just the best place. And I've really, really enjoyed getting to know you today, listening to your story and really understanding the woman and the person behind what you've built. You know, I think that's a very unique insight. So thank you for your time today. I'm very grateful, and I'm looking forward to seeing what's next for you.
- [62:18]
A
Thank you very much for having me. It was a lovely chat. It's always good to talk to a woman who understands what goes on and how difficult it is with, you know, everything that that you are trying to do. So thank you very much for having this conversation. I really enjoyed it.
- [62:36]
B
My pleasure.
- [62:37]
A
Thank.
- [62:42]
B
You.