The Balance Theory with Erika De Pellegrin

Episode: How to Get Good at Relationships (Most People Never Learn This) | Mo Gawdat
Date: January 25, 2026
Guest: Mo Gawdat – former Chief Business Officer of Google X, bestselling author, happiness and AI thought leader

Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful and practical episode, host Erika De Pellegrin sits down with Mo Gawdat to explore the complex mathematics and spiritual realities of successful relationships. They break down why most relationships fail, how to genuinely align with a partner through the seasons of life, and how self-understanding sets the foundation for building strong connections. Mo draws on his engineering background, spiritual beliefs, and latest work with AI-driven matchmaking to provide listeners with actionable frameworks and thought-provoking challenges to improve all relationships—romantic or otherwise.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Love vs. Relationships

(15:36–20:00)

• Love as Ever-present:

  • Mo explains love is not irrational: “Love is not irrational at all. Love is the only rational thing ever.” (15:36, Mo)
  • He distinguishes the spiritual constancy of love from the fluctuating, complex demands of "relationships".

• Love Equation:

  • “Love equals one… It’s always there, right. It’s always felt. You can only block it, or not tune into it.” (16:50, Mo)
  • Love is a state always available to us, while relationships are the challenge—requiring continuous effort and self-awareness.

2. Applying Logic and Mathematics to Relationships

(17:10–25:00)

• Complexity of Human Connection:

  • Mo likens relationships to the most complex mathematical problem, with hundreds or thousands of differing parameters—like love languages, personal values, and life goals—needing alignment or understanding.

• Why Most Relationships Fail:

  • Mo’s calculation: “If 96.8% of all relationships fail, then how can you be within the 3.2%? And to do that is actually really, really mathematics.” (00:00 & 20:00, Mo)

• AI for Deep Compatibility:

  • Introduction of Emma, an AI tool/app designed to map the vast variables of personal compatibility, foster self-discovery, and guide both individuals and couples through ongoing alignment.

3. Seasons and Evolution in Relationships

(25:57–34:00)

• Multiple ‘Ones’ Through Life:

  • Notion that there can be multiple possible partners through the course of life, depending on one’s spiritual and personal evolution.

• Seasons of Love:

  • Mo emphasizes the need to “fall in love again” repeatedly with the same person as both individuals and the partnership changes due to life events (parenthood, changing careers, etc.).
  • “Nibel and I, in 27 years, had to fall in love six times…We failed to fall in love the seventh time. It morphed into a different form of love.” (00:30 & 26:50, Mo)

4. The Real Drivers of Relationship Success

(34:45–41:58)

• Disconnect of Objectives:

  • The main cause for relationship breakdown is “a disconnect of objectives” — when partners want different things as they grow.
  • Mo’s “PPRFCTS” model for relationship needs: Partnership, Passion, Romance, Friendship, Companionship, Tenderness, Support.

• Alignment and Communication:

  • Staying aligned on seasonally changing priorities is crucial. When alignment is missing, resentment and nagging grow.
  • Proactive, honest communication is necessary—Emma AI is designed to regularly prompt these check-in conversations, even flagging likely periods of tension (e.g., job stress, parenting).

5. Managing Expectations and Dealbreakers

(51:37–66:00)

• The Happiness Equation in Relationships:

  • Applying Gawdat’s happiness formula: Happiness = Reality – Expectations.
  • “How would you know your expectations to start with? …Everyone’s working against you, right? Everyone's telling you that a love story is all about a knight in shining armor.” (53:06, Mo)
  • Mo encourages clarity about which desires are true dealbreakers versus social or media-conditioned “nice to haves”.

• Probability and Prioritization:

  • The more expectations you have, the astronomically harder your ideal match becomes to find.
  • Encourages listeners to actively rank and swap priorities, distinguishing essentials from preferences.

• Personal Responsibility and Growth:

  • Emphasizes self-work—understanding and working on your own dealbreakers, being as willing to work on yourself as on your partner.

6. AI's Role in Dating and Relationships

(42:33–51:37)

• Potential and Pitfalls of AI:

  • “AI used in the wrong way can be quite detrimental to humanity. Having said that, I think AI used the right way can really multiply our abilities.” (43:06, Mo)
  • Mo’s project, Emma, positions AI as a proactive coach, confidante, and mediator—unlike traditional apps focused on perpetual dating.

• Emma’s Integrity and Approach:

  • Emma challenges users on superficial criteria, nudges honest self-reflection, and maintains boundaries—“We literally don’t want you in the community [if you’re not ready for a real relationship].” (47:37, Mo)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the ever-present nature of love:

  • “My experience is I actually really struggle not to love someone... I feel love for you. Unless you really struggle and do a lot of things to block it…” (17:11, Mo)

• On the rarity of true compatibility:

  • “If you find someone that has your top seven [dealbreakers], I promise you, you hang onto them. Because they're very, very mathematically rare to find. And the rest can be worked on.” (64:09, Mo)

• On seasons of relationships:

  • “We had to fall in love six times... Each of those is a season. Each of those is a different nature of a relationship... With Nibel and I, we failed to fall in love the seventh time.” (26:50, Mo)

• On managing expectations:

  • “You are going to be disappointed because no human is perfect. It's just a question of choosing what you want to be disappointed in.” (61:55, Mo)

• On communication and self-improvement:

  • “...If you ever wanted something to change, I would never point it out as something that’s wrong with you. I would point it out as something that would make my life a lot better.” (64:10, Mo)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• (00:00–03:16): Introduction, Mo’s background, and engineering mindset
• (07:33–14:30): Overcoming fear and giving oneself permission to change paths in life
• (15:36–20:00): Defining love vs. relationships; love as spiritual, relationships as logistical/mathematical
• (25:57–34:00): Are there multiple “ones”? Seasons and evolution in long-term relationships
• (34:45–41:58): Why couples grow apart: changing objectives, the PPRFCTS model, maintaining alignment
• (42:33–51:37): Tech & relationships: building Emma, AI’s empathetic and coaching capabilities
• (51:37–66:00): The happiness equation and how to apply it to relationship expectations; dealbreakers, prioritization, and mutual self-improvement

Flow & Tone

The conversation balances deep philosophical insights with engaging, practical examples—often blending Mo’s systems-thinking approach with gentle humor and lived experience. Erika’s genuine curiosity and admiration for Mo’s work fosters a candid, grounded atmosphere.

Takeaways & Action Steps for Listeners

• Know Yourself First:
  • Clarity about your own needs, desires, and values is the foundation for any healthy partnership.
• Prioritize and Clarify Expectations:
  • Not every “nice to have” deserves to be a dealbreaker; know what truly matters.
• Consciously Re-align Over Time:
  • Relationships must adapt through life’s seasons; regular check-ins and honest conversations are vital.
• Invest in Growth—For Both Partners:
  • Commit to mutual improvement and open dialogue about what works and what doesn’t.
• Be Open to Technology as a Tool, Not a Replacement:
  • Appropriately deployed, AI can support deeper introspection, matching, and growth—but is no substitute for genuine connection and accountability.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a refreshingly analytical yet compassionate reframe on love, compatibility, and conscious partnership. Mo’s approach moves listeners away from fairy tale expectations to an empowering, actionable, and growth-oriented path for relationships—inviting us to “solve for happy” not only alone, but together.

For more info on Emma and Mo Gawdat’s work, see links in the show notes.