If You Want Both a Career and a Family… You Need to Hear This

Summary

The Balance Theory — Episode Summary

Episode Title: If You Want Both a Career and a Family… You Need to Hear This
Host: Erika De Pellegrin
Guest: Nancy Sukarno (Psychologist)
Release Date: April 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special episode of The Balance Theory dives deep into the transition of ambitious, high-achieving women into motherhood—how to find meaning, manage the emotional shifts, and strive for real balance when navigating both a career and family. Returning guest and psychologist Nancy Sukarno joins host Erika De Pellegrin in a thoughtful, honest conversation packed with psychological insights, personal stories, and actionable advice for anyone contemplating parenthood or already juggling work and family life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Transition into Motherhood: A Unique “Matrescence”

• Matrescence Defined: Both women discuss the concept of ‘matrescence’—the process of becoming a mother, not just as a simple role change but a deeper evolution or reconstruction of the self.

• Personal Alignment: For Nancy and Erika, motherhood didn’t create an entirely new identity but rather intensified existing nurturing traits.

  “We are ever evolving, ever growing, that we don't stop and start who we are… becoming that version of yourself is in front of you, not behind you.” — Nancy Sukarno [07:53]

2. The Power and Limits of Preparation

• Theory vs. Experience: Nancy, as a psychologist, emphasizes that while theoretical preparation helps, actual lived experience as a mother is a wholly different “ballgame.”

• Self-Discovery: She highlights the importance of knowing your triggers, values, and preferred coping mechanisms before entering motherhood.

  “You can take on all of the knowledge and information, but when you are actually partaking in that role, it's a whole different experience…” — Nancy Sukarno [04:19]

3. Grieving the Previous Self & Normalizing Mixed Emotions

• Holding Space for Grief and Excitement: Both agree it is normal—and healthy—to grieve the loss of autonomy or a previous life phase while also feeling ecstatic about the new chapter.

  “Two truths can exist. There are definitely parts of us that we grieve. And that is a very natural experience.” — Nancy Sukarno [17:52]

• Rejecting Judgment: Nancy encourages mothers not to shame themselves for “should” feelings dictated by society or tradition.

  “If we don't judge [our emotions] and we are curious and we're allowing of them and we honor them, give them space to exist, then we can process and move through that.” — Nancy Sukarno [19:00]

4. Navigating Relationships and Resentment

• Unspoken Inequalities: A candid discussion about the unique burdens mothers often face, especially physical and social limitations versus partners.

• The Resentment Factor: Both share ways resentment can build and how it’s normal—stemming from a sense of injustice—and the importance of honest communication.

  “Resentment comes from the injustice that women experience… physically my body had changed. Socially, I wasn't able to do the things that I wanted to do… all of these things that we have to experience that men don't.” — Nancy Sukarno [23:52]

• Practical Conversations: Nancy recommends discussing love languages, boundaries with extended family, and planning for support—earlier and repeatedly.

  “It's important to understand what it is that your partner needs rather than what you think they need.” — Nancy Sukarno [28:03]

  Notable Segment: Practical partnership strategies [28:03–32:00]

5. The Challenge of Receiving Help

• Hyper-Independence: Erika and Nancy examine how high-achieving women can struggle to ask for or receive help and how vital it is to practice receiving, even when uncomfortable or unnecessary.

  “Sitting with the discomfort of accepting things that you wouldn't previously is a very helpful way to work through this...” — Nancy Sukarno [32:41]

6. The Working Mother Paradox: Productivity vs. Presence

• Overwhelm and Multitasking: Mundane tasks can feel monumental post-birth due to emotional and cognitive overload.

• Shifting Priorities and Boundaries: Nancy notes the need to set clearer work boundaries post-baby and to “be present” wherever you are—at work or with family.

  “I wanted to be the parent that was conscious and present and just all in. And in the back of my mind I was like, I have these emails to respond to… relinquishing that was difficult.” — Nancy Sukarno [44:21]

  Notable Segment: Work/life boundaries; “be present with where you're at” strategy [44:18–46:13]

7. The Skills and Traits That Can Backfire

• "I can do it all" Mentality: A pre-baby strength can become a vulnerability post-baby—high performers’ struggle to cede control, prioritize, and adapt.

  “That sense of agency and autonomy shifts and you do lose a sense of control around time. You prioritize becoming a parent, giving your time and your energy to your child, meaning that you have to take it away from your work...” — Nancy Sukarno [46:13–47:39]

8. Adaptability, Self-Reflection, and Tech Awareness

• Emotional Mirrors: Both women discuss how children become mirrors for self-awareness, especially around healthy tech habits and presence.

  “It really has almost like put up a mirror… it's made me more present.” — Nancy Sukarno [50:27]

9. Foundational Advice for Aspiring Parents

• Prioritize Self-Knowledge: Nancy's parting guidance is to focus on introspection, building self-awareness and understanding your partnership, before stepping into parenthood.

  “It is extremely important to get to know your relationship as deeply as you can because it bears all… it really is something that challenges you in good and bad ways and gives you the opportunity to grow and develop and expand in ways you may not have before.” — Nancy Sukarno [52:12]

• Embrace Adaptability: Erika highlights the necessity of adapting through the ever-changing seasons of life, family, and work.

  “All of this work is necessary and important, but a lot of it happens on the fly as you're going. So just opening up the channels for that growth, for that learning, for that self-understanding… that is the skill.” — Erika De Pellegrin [55:30]

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Memorable Quotes

• On Motherhood and Identity:

  “We don't stop and start who we are… becoming that version of yourself is in front of you, not behind you.” — Nancy Sukarno [07:53]

• On Asking for and Accepting Help:

  “When is it okay for me to put my hand up and say, hey, I need help, I'm struggling. Or I may not have been struggling, but the help was necessary.” — Nancy Sukarno [13:17]

• On Guilt and Priorities:

  “When I was working, I was working and when I was parenting, I was parenting. And I didn't want the two to clash. And I didn't want to take away from being a mother and being a present mother.” — Nancy Sukarno [44:18]

• On Self-Reflection Before Parenthood:

  “If anyone wants to transition into parenthood, it is really important that they look introspectively first. I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to get to know yourself before you become a parent.” — Nancy Sukarno [52:12]

• On Adaptability:

  “Adaptability is probably my 2026 word for the year. Love it. It is the most important thing to really channel here is how adaptable can you be?” — Nancy Sukarno [56:08]

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Recommended Timestamps for Key Segments

• Matrescence & Identity Shifts: [03:05–11:38]
• Preparation vs. Reality: [04:03–06:09]
• Navigating Grief for Past Self: [17:43–20:05]
• Relationship Dynamics & Resentment: [23:52–32:00]
• Learning to Accept Help: [32:06–36:23]
• Work/Life Boundaries & Presence: [44:18–46:13]
• High-Achiever Traits—Strength vs. Vulnerability: [46:13–47:39]
• Tech Awareness & Behavior Mirroring: [49:19–51:30]
• Nancy’s Foundational Advice: [52:12–55:30]
• On Adaptability as a Core Skill: [55:30–56:40]

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Episode Takeaways

• Balance is highly individual. Introspection and intentional communication (with yourself and your partner) are crucial before and after becoming a parent.
• Accepting help is not a weakness; it’s essential for sustainable family dynamics.
• Presence beats perfection—be there emotionally and physically in whatever role you're playing at each given moment.
• Emotional honesty with yourself and your partner prevents resentment and builds deeper relationships.
• Adaptability is the guiding skill—motherhood, partnership, career, and self continually evolve, and so must your approaches.

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For anyone wrestling with how to juggle ambition, motherhood, and partnership, this episode offers permission, guidance, and practical wisdom for making your own balance real—no guilt required.

Transcript

[Nancy Sukarno]

I wanted to be the parent that was conscious and present and in the back of my mind I was like, I have these emails to respond to. I want to schedule these clients in. And relinquishing that was difficult.

[Podcast Host]

If you are wanting to balance a family and career, this is a must watch. Joining me today is a special reappearance from our first guest ever on the show, my dear friend and incredible psychologist Nancy Sukarno. What are the skills or traits of, let's say high performing women when they become parents can actually work against them?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I can do it all. I have all the time, the world. I am driven towards success. I want to invest 110% into everything that I do until we become parents where that sense of agency and autonomy shifts. All of these mundane things I found extremely difficult and became really, really overwhelmed and I became then frustrated. This is unlike me. I always say to my clients we're human beings, not human doings.

[Podcast Host]

I personally felt myself and had like a bit of shame around having resentment towards your partner lot.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Lots of people will disclose that they have had lots of arguments in that first few months that they haven't previously or that they view their partner in a different way that they never have before, but nothing has changed.

[Podcast Host]

Do you have any sort of practical questions or conversation starters?

[Nancy Sukarno]

It's important to understand what it is that your partner needs rather than what you think they need. If anyone wants to transition into parenthood, it is really important that they.

[Podcast Host]

All right, balances. Welcome to another episode of the Balance Theory podcast. This is an extremely special episode. If you recognize today's guest, you are a real OG because this is her second time on the show, but she was actually my first guest ever. We recorded in my apartment when I was still living in Sydney and I'm very grateful to say that she's still a very dear friend of mine. Since we did our first recording, which was basically when the show ever came out, we have both gotten engaged, gotten married, we've traveled Europe together, we've both had baby girls. There's been so much that has happened in the last five to six years. So I'm very grateful to have what feels like a very full circle moment with you. My dear friend Nancy, welcome back to the show.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Thank you so much. It's so nice to be here and so much has happened in the last six years that it feels surreal.

[Podcast Host]

I know this is very much an upgrade to our previous experiences a little bit, just a couple of extra touches. But it's nice to have had you come on the journey with me, you know, like always reflecting on that first episode, which I will link in the show notes, because it was a very good episode and it was, you know, post Covid. But today we're going to talk about something which I think at the moment is very close to both of our hearts. It's something we've both gone through in the last one to two years and that is the transition of becoming a mother, which is often referred to as matro sense. Yeah, we've been laughing about pronouncing that word. I hope I said it right. But it's been this beautiful evolution of becoming.

[Nancy Sukarno]

It's.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know about you, but it's something in my life I've always very, very much looked forward to. But we're both very ambitious, very hardworking women who are trying to navigate and balance motherhood whilst maintaining our careers and businesses. So this episode is really going to dive into the psychology of that becoming. I think for a lot of things maybe other moms will be feeling or people that want to become parents in the future as well can really relate to some. Very excited for today's show.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Me too. It's definitely something that I have worked on in the last 15 months since becoming a mum. And it's a really exciting conversation to have with you because you too are now a mum. And that feels like it really resonates, particularly in this niche where, like you said, working mothers, high achieving, really wanting to make something of yourself and then also transitioning into the motherhood role. And what does that look like? And like you said, what does that balance look like for us?

[Podcast Host]

So I'm curious because you obviously a practicing psychologist, did you do a lot of work in terms of preparing yourself for this transition before, and if you did, how much of that was actually useful versus being in the moment and actually going through it and just learning on the fly?

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah, I absolutely did. I think that it was really important for me to understand myself to the best of my ability. And that self discovery happened over a long period of time and I felt that I knew that I wanted to be a mother for a long time. And I knew that when the time came that I wanted to be that full potential self. And of course, like anything theoretically, you can take on all of the knowledge and information, but when you are actually partaking in that role, it's a whole different experience. And you can apply the things that you've learned over time, but it just is a whole different ballgame when you are doing it day to day. And I really am someone who learns practically. And so I found that my knowledge, experience, skills really blew up when I became a mom. And I thought that I was prepared, and I thought that I knew all the things, the child development, the way that I'd like to parent, how much I knew myself, how much I knew my partner in our relationship. And until we became parents, all of those things were really highlighted. Hmm.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's. I think today what. What my intention is for our episode today is, number one, to. To learn from you about some of those things that you kind of thought through or maybe even coach some of your other clients on in terms of that transition. And number two, then speak to our experience, because that. I remember even just being pregnant and listening to other people's stories about their pregnancies, like, I really learned a lot just through hearing other people. And I think it's also important to qualify and say that there's so many variables in and amongst this experience that I just think hearing different stories is a nice way for you to tap in and have it in the back of your mind as, like, armor as you're going through different things. Yeah.

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think that, like you said, there are so many variables that you take into account when becoming a parent, and your personal experiences, your ideologies, your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors, your precepts that form who you are and those things then transition with you into parenthood. And so it is something that I think people should take with a grain of salt when they are speaking to other people or women about parenthood, pregnancy, birth, postpartum period. It really is taking it on and understanding other people's experiences, which is amazing because you can resonate with some parts and you leave other parts behind, but your own personal experience is so nuanced and so important that you look at you and only you in that moment. Because no two people are the same. And very much like we are so different in all of the other things that we do. Career, relationships, friendships, family, self development that we do, that we have that same lens when it comes to motherhood. And I found that over the last 15 months, and even when working with women who are, whether it's antenatal or postnatally, that there is this pressure to be a certain way and to be the right mother or a good mother, whatever that looks like. I think, again, there is so much nuance to that, and it's important that women really understand that you just can't be, like, the next person. And that's okay.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, definitely. I think this is a good segue into my first question, which is, do you think motherhood is best understood as a role change or an identity reconstruction?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think, again, that's so varied because for some people, they'll step into the parenting role and they'll rediscover themselves. And the you is on a continuum. And so we are ever evolving, ever growing, that we don't stop and start who we are. We also don't go backwards either. I know that people refer to becoming mothers as wanting to go back to the old me, but. But she has evolved and so she's wanting to continue to grow and change and becoming. That version of yourself is in front of you, not behind you. And so I think that it really is about reconstructing the identity that you perceive. And that role change happens because you become someone's carer and this child is dependent on you. And so it really does depend on what that looks like for you. I think it's important for me to preface with depends on how you view yourself. What roles do you tie to your identity? Is it that you tie your identity to roles or not at all? And so, yeah, it is. There's so much variance there, and I think it's hard to say for all mothers that they would feel that it is a complete identity restructure or that it is simply a role change, because I think it's both. Both and. And. Or none of them. You know, I. I think that it's. It really does depend on who you are as an individual and what that means for you and what you lean into.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's interesting to think about. I'm just kind of reflecting myself. I feel like, for me, it's been like an identity reconstruction in the sense of. Or maybe it's more like a. It's. It's fit into the way I see myself. Like, I kind of see myself as a friend, right. As a nurturer in my workplace. Like, yes, it's. It's corporate and I'm a bit more like masculine energy, but the way I show up is still, like, in a very kind, caring way. And so I feel like becoming a mum has sort of fit into that identity that I've already had for myself, but maybe amplified it. I'd love to hear for you, like, which is it and. Or is it one or the other?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think that given my role and my work, I maybe give us a bit of context. Yeah, of course. So I'm a psychologist and I work with lots of different presentations, lots of different people, and I really do feel like I'm a nurturer and I care deeply and I empathize deeply. And I think that that's something that I really do tie my identity to. And so when becoming a mother, I felt that that was then amplified or highlighted. Those parts of me that were really warm and nurturing, caring, understanding, quite tolerant, patient, kind. All of those things that I know about myself I really lent into. And when I transitioned into parenthood, I felt that those things really were highlighted for me and that felt really in alignment. And I really did come into parenthood feeling like I was the best version of myself. And the things that were amplified after becoming a parent really felt like they resonated. And you know, it absolutely is not all butterflies and rainbows. And I'm by no means saying that there hasn't been hard days, hard moments in parenthood though I really do feel like I'm in my element here.

[Podcast Host]

I love that for you, honestly, it's, as your friend, it's such a beautiful thing to witness and you know, just seeing it as such a beautiful, organic, aligned part of who you are. Okay. I don't know about you, especially the breastfeeding moms listening, but sometimes I feel like I'm literally drinking water all day long and still somehow feel dehydrated. Recently I started mixing a cure pack into the first glass of water before anything else in the day. And the difference in my energy is very noticeable. The cure pack is a plant based electrolyte with no sugar and no garbage. It's built on the same formula used in IV hydration therapy, meaning I actually feel like my water is hydrating me for the first time because my body is actually absorbing it. Mums, I know how easy it is to forget to look after ourselves when caring for little ones. So this is such an easy habit to quickly add into your morning to know you're supporting yourself at the start of your day. Plus, the stick packs fit so easily into the purse, pram, diaper bag, kitchen drawer, wherever you want to grab it quickly, making it so easy to remind yourself to hydrate properly. Staying hydrated is not just about drinking more water as I thought, it's about your body actually using it. That's what cure does. Clean ingredients, real science. And it actually tastes so good. My favorite flavor right now is the watermelon use code Balanceri for 20% [e-mail] or you can also find it on Amazon. Real ingredients for real hydration. Thank you so much to Cure Hydration for sponsoring today's Show. Now let's get back to today's episode. Talk to me about the kinds of things, like, you know, you said you worked to becoming the best version of yourself and getting to know yourself before becoming a mother. What did that look like? Do you have anything practical you can walk us through that really helped you?

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah, I think that it's important to understand what makes you tick, like your triggers. Yeah. What do I love? What do I. Not so much what irritates me, what do I need? What do I value? What do I want? I know, you know the age old extension existential question, who am I? And I think that it was really important for me to understand what it was that I was coming into and who I wanted to be. And so, for example, knowing that I am someone who really likes routine and structure and discipline, it's something that drives me and it has allowed me to be the person that I've been for the last 10 years. Something I really have honed in on, particularly around my career development. And so I know that I really thought about what that might look like for me coming into parenthood. The lack of control in a lot of the things when you're dealing with a newborn, sleep deprivation and what that might look like for mood regulation. What were the ways that I could conflict manage more appropriately with my partner if I was feeling irritable, agitated, sleep deprived? I find it really hard to ask for help and have done for a long time. And I know that it takes a village and it absolutely does. And I've been shown that in the last 15 months. And so I really needed to work on my ego around that. When is it okay for me to put my hand up and say, hey, I need help, I'm struggling. Or I may not have been struggling, but the help was necessary. And that has been really helpful as well because I've really allowed myself to let people in and let them like past the baton. That was really helpful. I think it was important for me to understand what I really valued about becoming a parent. Less about having a child, but more about why. And I asked myself a lot of why questions. And you don't have to have the answers to that, but it's the curiosity, it's the exploration around getting to know yourself on a deeper level. And I think that sometimes we are scared to ask those questions because we might not have the answer. And it isn't so much about that. It is getting to know yourself in a way where you open up and be vulnerable and transparent about what it is. Like I said that makes you tick. And oftentimes it is just that.

[Podcast Host]

Are you like, someone who does that exploration through writing, through thinking, like, what's your. I know there's many different mediums, but I'm just curious, how do you actually go about that?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I am a talker, and therapy has been the most incredible thing. And I'm not biased here for me to sound bored and I think I know everything. But when I pose questions, I often hear answers that I haven't thought about. And they've given me an opportunity to reflect on something deeper than what I might have come up with. And it feels a little bit more objective when it's being sent to you, when you're receiving it in a way that you can sit and reflect and think rather than judge. I found that sometimes when I asked myself the question and I needed to answer it for myself, there was judgment associated less a more subjective view on what it was that I was trying to get to, rather than a reflection. That's really helpful for me. I'm someone who really thrives on conversation and being in other people's presence and energy. I. I'm more like vlog dump than I do writing. So if I have something to say to myself, I'll film it. And I have done for a while. I mean, I think also, you know, starting YouTube like, eons ago came from this, like, recording myself and talking about experiences that I had and then watching them back like a week later, a month later, and being, like, interesting. I didn't think that I felt like that at that time, but it's given me hindsight. That's really helpful. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Do you think it's normal for people to grieve the previous version of themselves?

[Nancy Sukarno]

The word normal refers to healthy and natural, and I think that it is both of those things. There is a part of transitioning into a newer version of yourself that you may grieve the parts of you that have been left behind. And you can also be really excited and looking forward to being this new version of yourself at the same time. And two truths can exist. And I think there are definitely parts of us, us that we grieve. And that is a very natural experience. And it's not something that we should look down on or frown. It's not frowned upon for us to mourn that version of us and be really looking forward to that part of us that is going to grow in a different way that it hasn't before. And when we allow that, it really does help in our process that we don't judge and we don't view that in a negative way, that I should be experiencing this in a different way than I am. And I think that should is very tied to obligation and expectation, whether that's socially, whether that's familial, cultural, traditional, that it's important for us to really look at that and think I can and choose to feel however I do, that there is no one that can tell me otherwise. And nor does it make me any less of a mum or a good mum if I feel that the parts of me that I potentially have left behind makes me sad, makes me potentially regretful, makes me worried, doubtful, stressed. You know, that all of these emotions can exist and if we don't judge them and we are curious and we're allowing of them and we honor them, give them space to exist, then we can process and move through that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's often, you know, you go through different experiences and there's this polarity of emotions and often it makes you feel like there's something wrong, like how can I be feeling so excited to be a mom, like it's all I've ever wanted, but also feel like, you know, I've just gone through this massive change and like that's a part of me that I'm effectively never going to get back. It's like this very polar experience and it's not one or the other, it's. And both.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you know, you also get a lot of unsolicited commentary when you're pregnant or have a baby or breastfeeding, whatever it is.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I feel like a lot of that at the time can be, can be quite jarring and negative. With smart watches, rings and lab tests, we honestly have more access to our health data than ever before. It would make sense to me at least, if our doctors and our practitioners could easily see or access all this health information in one central place. But the reality is our data is scattered everywhere and no one is looking at the full picture. That is, unless you're using Kinton. Kinson is the first telemedicine platform to securely bring together medical records from participating healthcare systems. And it works by combining your lab, wearable and lifestyle data all in one central place. In doing so, it's able to give your providers a more complete picture of your health and more tailored product recommendations. A friend of mine was only just telling me how amazing it was to, for the first time, see all her health results and records, including all her Apple Watch data in one central place. I really love that the platform actually won't even recommend you any products until it has the complete picture. So it really is this personalized holistic approach. It comes with 24.7 messaging access to a licensed provider. You're able to connect all your wearable data like your Apple Watch, Oura rings, et cetera. You can order lab testing through the platform and you can get a personalized health experience guided by real healthcare providers all from the comfort of your home. With Kinson world class care and cutting edge treatments are now accessible to all our US based listeners. Head to kinson.com balancetheory to take a free quiz and discover solutions guided by healthcare professionals tailored to your unique biology. That's K-I-N-S-Y-N.com balance theory and don't forget to use the code BALANCETHEORY at check checkout to save 20% off your first subscription order one of the things I've spoken to a lot of my girlfriends about, I personally felt myself and had like a bit of shame around but something I wanted to bring to this conversation just so other mums who maybe have felt this or other people who are going to go into parenthood and may feel this in the future also understand it. Maybe not. It's not just them kind of feeling and that is this idea of having resentment towards your partner in the context of, you know, for me, for example, my husband works from home. He's very hands on with baby. But at the beginning, you know, in those first few months where your showers and eating times are literally dictated by the small window where baby is asleep and not feeding because it's so around the clock. Whereas I'd look at my husband and he'd just have a shower whenever he wanted or he could go to the gym like you know, on day two because it was in our building and like so fine because like go and exercise boy. Like do your thing.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But like there was a part of me that had some sort of resentment. Like I can't just pick up and go like this baby is dependent on me. And again and I love having this baby so much because it's all I've ever wanted. I've had girlfriends tell me stories about how, you know, their husbands started returning to social events. But as you know, like it's very hard to go out in those first few months because baby's feeding so much, especially if you're breastfeeding and whatnot. So can we go into this resentment? Little bit because I think it's important to explore so it doesn't fester into, like a couple's issue when it doesn't need to be. It's maybe something we need to understand about how we're feeling and what we're going through.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Absolutely. I think that it is a very normal experience to have. This resentment comes from the injustice that women experience when having a child. I know that during pregnancy I was extremely resentful of the fact that fitness is a huge part of my life and I exercise almost every day. It is more a mental thing than it is physical for me. And I kind of likened it to playing in the EPL when I was not pregnant and then kicking a soccer ball against a colorbond fence when I was. And so the transition and the. The adapting that I needed to do whilst being pregnant, and particularly in the later months when I was super uncomfortable and just extremely tired, that really didn't change for my husband. And he could go about his day and he could sleep and eat and go to work and not feel exhaustion. And they're unaffected by it. Yeah, physically, 100%. And then when having baby, like you said, life really doesn't change necessarily. Sure. From an emotional point of view, they've taken on a new role as well, but the transition isn't as stuck for them. And so I think the resentment comes from injustice that I need to be at home caring for baby. Not suggesting that dad isn't doing so, but you become the primary caregiver here. Again, there are very. There is variance here and there's nuance in this conversation, but I'm speaking particularly on my experience here, that it just really didn't change for him. And so physically my body had changed. Socially, I wasn't able to do the things that I wanted to do physically. Physically, I was recovering from having a baby. All of the things moving back into place, the hormonal changes, the emotions, the cognitive change, the sleep deprivation, all of these things that we have to experience that men don't. And so I think that it was that struggle to understand it logically and go, well, well, he didn't have the child and so I understand why he can do these things. And it's really upsetting me and it's really frustrating me and I'm feeling really resentful. And that oftentimes the resentment is projected and it is whether it's snappiness, irritability, agitation, a lack of tolerance or patience for your partner. Lots of people will disclose that they have had lots of arguments in that first few months with their partner that they haven't previously or that they view their partner in a different way that they never have before. But nothing has changed in the relationship. But the dynamics have, and our responsibilities have, and our needs for one another have. And I think that it's important, particularly in those first few postpartum months, that we have these conversations with our partner and be really honest and open about the fact that, hey, I am feeling these things, and I understand that this is the logic behind it. So I'm not attacking you, and I'm not making you feel or trying to make you feel guilty for it, but I need to be able to express the way that I'm feeling. Otherwise, we do bottle it up. And again, you're dealing with all of these hormonal changes at the same time. So it's a whirlwind, and it's something that needs to be spoken about far more than it is.

[Podcast Host]

Did you and your husband have any conversations before baby came into the picture? And do you have any sort of practical questions or conversation starters that people listening just might be able to park and maybe use in their relationships?

[Nancy Sukarno]

We absolutely did. I think we talked a lot about our love languages because it's important to understand what it is that your partner needs rather than what you think they need. And when I thought about becoming a parent, acts of service is something that I don't particularly view as a love language. I'm almost hyper independent, and like I said before, don't oftentimes ask for help. And so I felt that that was necessary for me to verbalize when Bub was born, that I would need him to step into that space. That having these acts of service shows me that we're teammates and that we can collaborate on this together. And that was a big conversation for. It's also one thing to think about what we need and then a whole other thing to step into parenthood and understand what it is that you need. And those conversations can be done beforehand, but most definitely need to happen afterwards as well. That just because you've had a child and this has changed for you, it was also changed for the dynamic of your relationship. And we can't just leave that to the wayside. Yeah. Another conversation we had around parenting and what that might look like, and I think that early on, it is less about parenting per se and more about surviving, looking after. Yeah, looking. Looking after this helpless being that requires our undivided attention and, you know, needs to be changed, burped, fed, put to sleep.

[Podcast Host]

On loop.

[Nancy Sukarno]

On loop. Yeah. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. That what what might that look like for us or what did we need from one another in terms of. For me, like I said, I'm someone who's quite disciplined, quite routine. I wanted to be able to go and do those things for myself. What might that have looked like? What did we expect of one another in terms of work and running businesses? I just. We really put on the table things that were logical because I didn't know what was to come. Yeah. And I thought that it was important for us to have those conversations. And then when we stepped into par. Played it by you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, no, definitely. We did a very similar thing. The only other thing I would add to the list, and this was relevant to us because we had a lot of family visiting. But, you know, you might be in a situation where you've got family that wants to be very hands on.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

We also spoke about boundaries with extended family and how we both felt about that, how much involvement we wanted people to have. If one of us felt overwhelmed, you know, how we had the other one would jump in and support. Especially if it was like their parents or my parents or for example, anything like that. And that felt really important to me because I did. I didn't want to be, you know, we had the first grandchild on his side and I didn't want to be in a position where I. I felt bad feeling like I needed something, but then also I was taking away from someone else. Also going through a first, you know, and so navigating that sort of conversation around, look, I don't know how I'm going to feel, but if I do feel a certain way, like, you know, are you okay to have my back? Are you okay to set this boundary on my behalf? One thing I am also very bad at is asking for help. I think this comes from. Again, I'm similar to you. Our hyper independence, our attitude of I want to do it all, I can do it all. This makes us very successful in what we do. It makes us achieve a lot of things. But in this particular season of life, it can very much work to our detriment. And one thing I didn't appreciate wasn't so much. Even when I need to ask for help and not being ashamed of that, that was a part of it. But also just accepting the help, even if I didn't need it, even if I could do the laundry, like I had a C section, Right. So actually just sitting there, yeah, okay, I could get up and do the laundry. But like, if someone else. Yeah, if someone else just did it and it was just nice and there was no like obligation or like I didn't owe them anything and it was just like someone just doing things for me and being in a place of just being able to receive that and accept that without feeling guilty.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Was very hard for me at the beginning until I went through it for about a month. My mother in law was amazing for me during that time. It was phenomenal. But I found it very difficult and I felt very guilty in the beginning. So for anyone else listening who sort of resonates like what's going on? Then how do you I guess plan to be in a place where you can accept that kind of support? Because it is so, so important that you're looked after during that time. So you can. Because if you're focusing on baby and you have other people helping you and focusing on you, then that's like, like a really nice way to kind of move through it.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Absolutely. And I think again when we have children, people become really fixated on baby and what does baby need and how can we help with baby. And oftentimes mum really needs help too. Like you said, domestic duties don't stop. You know, breakfast, lunch and dinner needs to be cooked. All of these things that we need to take into consideration as well as raising a child. And so when we are as we are high achieving, I can do it all, I don't need help. All of that, it really does become detrimental because we are being spread really, really thin. And like we said before, hormones are changing, emotions are impacted, you're sleep deprived. And so some of the things that we would find really easy to do become really difficult tasks. And, and I would really say that sitting with the discomfort of accepting things that you wouldn't previously is a very helpful way to work through this that we can prepare ourselves with. Like I said, the logic around I will accept help, I will ask when I need to or even when I don't. If someone says I will do XYZ for you, I will be accepting and receiving of that. I can say all of those things and, and like I said, in theory it seems great until you have to experience it. And understanding that it is okay for it to feel uncomfortable, it is okay for you to sit with the discomfort that comes up for you when someone says I've got your back, I can do this for you without feeling that guilt or shame around, but I can't do it all. I want to, but I'm, I'm spread really thin or it just is going to make my life a little bit easier here. If I allow this to happen, I think that emotions will come up and very much like a wave will dissipate if we don't get in their way. And oftentimes when emotions come up for us, we judge and we inflate and we try and decipher and understand why they are happening rather than just letting them be. And it's. You know, I always say to my clients, we're human beings, not human doings. And the more that you sit still with your emotions and allow them to come up and then subside, the more that you're going to allow into your life, and the more receiving you're going to be of the things that do make you uncomfortable. And in this season of our life, it is, like we said, a transition of things that we are unfamiliar with, with and allowing ourselves to really just lean into the unfamiliar until it becomes an enormous natural state. And I. I'm sure that you can attest to the fact that five months of Mila has made you feel that. As if she's never not been here.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Can't even remember a day without her, which is so crazy.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah. That. That this just feels like you now.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it is. It's inexperience. It forces you to, like, actually live it and do what you said you're gonna do. And I feel like a good reframe for me at the time was the reality is, if baby only had me right now, she would be fine. Like, that's all she needs in those initial few months. She just needs to feed. All she knows is me, my voice. Like, that's what she's known for nine months. So, like, everyone else, changing her and all this stuff is very helpful, but accepting that help for myself.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

You know, letting someone else look after her or do the housework so I could have a shower. Like, those. Those little things make such a big difference and a crazy thing that I. I mean, maybe it's not crazy now. Me having gone through it and understanding all this stuff that happens was, like, cognitively, I, for the first time, ever, found tasks so overwhelming. And that was so hard for me because I'm normally like a tick, tick, tick, do it all. Do the washing, do this, like, quickly. Run through everything, get through everything. I'm very organized, like, all my things in a certain way. And I just found I had, like, literally, this was. Even when I was starting to get back into work, I just had, like, a handful of things to do, and it was just, like, so overwhelming, and I was getting so frustrated. With myself just feeling like I'm just not the same anymore. Like, I just, I feel like I'm, you know, there's this huge gap between like, my performance and. And the energy required to like, do and achieve and then just be a nurture and be still with my girl and just like, be present with her. Like, it just felt so jarring at the beginning until I slowly, like, learned to just be with myself where I'm at. Let's talk about being a working mum.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's a privilege in its own right to be able to have a career, maintain it, and be able to parent and nurture a baby with support.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Like, I want to acknowledge that because it's such a. But it's something I'm very grateful for. But I do want to speak to some of the challenges that come up in moving through that transition. I'd love for you to start off by just sharing personally your experience and then we can, you know, workshop it a bit more.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah, I. Like you said, this is really about having a village. Being able to be a working mom and nurturing a baby at the same time is something that I definitely don't take for granted. It's a testament to the support that I have and my partner has been incredible about again, helping me transition into this space. It is something that I didn't expect to find difficult. Like you were saying, simple tasks became really hard. I remember in the first two weeks of having baby, I couldn't. I think I couldn't open the pram. I just for the life of me couldn't get it set up and I burst into tears. I then had a fight with the car seat and couldn't get the sterilizer to work. And all of these really, like, what I perceived to be mundane things I found extremely difficult and became really, really overwhelmed with. And I became then frustrated because this is unlike me. And I want to talk on very quickly, the baseline theory here that if I started off as a, at a zero, things that might be a two out of ten, objectively, like opening a pram that might be one for science sake, meant that I would be a one. But if I was starting off at a eight out of ten and I couldn't open the pram, I'm now a nine. And so I am really bubbling over to the top here. And I really looked at, at that as why I might have been feeling the way that I was feeling, rather than again judging myself about the fact that I couldn't do or felt that I couldn't do these really mundane things that tasks that felt like a 1 previously are now a 9 for me.

[Podcast Host]

That's very useful.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah. And I really do like to reframe things in an acknowledgment rather than a judgment. How can I acknowledge what's happening here? How can I acknowledge why it might be happening rather than judging myself about why it is? I went not back to work full time, but I went back to work three weeks postpartum, and it happened that way. And I felt comfortable to do that because I had so much support. My mom is extremely hands on. My husband is extremely hands on. My sister is extremely hands on. And so my beautiful friends, other family members. And so I felt that I was really supported to be able to transition back into that quite soon. Now, again, lots of things have changed since then in terms of working from home, being able to breastfeed, and all of those things. But I think that it was really important that I looked at this with a change in the priorities that I had from. From being this successful, driven career woman to wanting to be a nurturing, loving, present parent and being able to really, I guess, like, mold those two things together. Felt that it was, yeah, it was necessary to really know what I needed there and what it was that I could do practically what was in my control at the time to be able to set myself up.

[Podcast Host]

Can you speak to me about a real challenge you had when you were in that process of merging the two and sort of getting back into the flow of, okay, I have a baby now, I have support. But then there's so many logistics as well. Like if you're breastfeeding and then you're. You're. You're pumping and then working around those time schedules. But then also, like, your work slowly ramps up as well. You know, you maybe start with a couple consults a week, and then it goes back to what you said before. 25, 27 clients, clients a week you've got now. Can you run us through, like, a real challenge or a moment you had that you thought was gonna break you?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think that in the early years of my career, I really wanted to hit the ground running, and I wanted to be here, there, and everywhere all of the time. I wanted to run social media. I wanted to do workshops. I wanted to see, you know, as many clients as the day would allow. Yeah, well, ensuring that I was taking care of myself at the end of the day, but I really wanted to. To be everywhere, and I found it really hard to say no. And my boundaries were a Little bit more lax when it came to work. I would work around the clock, I would send out emails at 11pm, I would do social media posts at midnight, I'd wake up at 5 and reply to emails. I really didn't have a cap on how much work I was doing because I ran my own business. It wasn't 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, Friday hours, I would work on the weekends, I would do reporting. And so I felt that, you know, it was, that was the only thing that I was focusing on. And so I could do that as well as taking care of myself and ensuring that I, you know, self care is something that's really, really important to me. And so I was the main priority here. And I really did struggle with the fact that I no longer had 24 hour accessibility to my work and that I couldn't say yes to everything. And I need to prioritize my daughter and I needed to prioritize feeding and being present and doing all of the things that I chose to do as a parent. And so I did have to pull back, I did have to say no. I had to be conscious of the fact that when I was working, I was working and when I was parenting, I was parenting. And I didn't want the two to clash. And I didn't want to take away from being a mother and being a present mother. And so I would put my phone away or I would respond to emails 24 hours later. And that at the start was really difficult for me. I felt this urgency to do the work that I had always done for so long. But I also felt this need and almost this guilt that I was feeling the sense of urgency because I was being present with my, with my child.

[Podcast Host]

I'm like nodding so hard right now, like feeling everything you're saying right now.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah. And I, I think that was my biggest struggle, that I wanted to be the parent that was conscious and present and just all in. And in the back of my mind I was like, I have these emails to respond to, I want to schedule these clients in, I need to reschedule this thing or respond to these people or whatever it was. But I needed to sit with that discomfort that is now okay. For me to not have that sense of urgency and relinquishing that was difficult. Cool.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Nancy Sukarno]

And it's an ongoing process.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I, I honestly am going through this right now where I, I've spoken to a lot of mums. Right. A lot of working mums on the show. And I think the best advice I got, which is Very, very similar to what you just gave is like just be present with where you're at. If you're sitting with your daughter, don't think about work and if you're at work, just be at work. Like kind of give yourself permission to just sit in whatever you're doing. Because the reality is if you're at work, you're not being a mum in the that specific moment of the day. And if you're being a mom, you're not working. And the truth is like if you're sitting there with your girl while she's playing and you're on your phone, you're doing both 50%. So you kind of, it's running at your own detriment. But I had a very, you know, even like a couple weeks ago, I, and I swear my daughter is an empath because if I'm like trying to put her to sleep and I'm really calm and I've got nowhere to be, like she goes out like a light if I'm sitting there trying to rock her and I'm thinking about all the emails I have to respond to, the girl does not go down. And I'm like, this is my lesson in life to just like be present and learn this skill. But I just feel so guilty as well when I'm like with her and I'm thinking all I can think about is like a bloody email I have to send. Like it's a real frustrating experience for me. So what I want to ask you is what are the skills or traits of, let's say high performing women or working women that are really determined, that really work to their advantage pre babies and then post when they become parents can actually work against them.

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think it very much is this sense of priority around I can do it all. I want to do the best that I can with what I have. I have all the time in the world. I am driven towards success. I want to invest 110% into everything that I do. Nothing else. Inverted commas requires my attention or my priority. But work and then, and that sense of selfishness and the control that we have around what our scheduling looks like, how much time we can invest in things, how much we can say no or yes to things until we become parents where those things, that sense of agency and autonomy shifts and you do lose a sense of control around time. You prioritize becoming a parent, giving your time and your energy to your child, meaning that you have to take it away from your work. And that discomfort that you were saying before about putting her down and thinking about an email that you need to send. That guilt that comes with that. Again, that's a judgment that we feel. This is a transition for us just as much as it is having this child in that we have, yes, become a parent and we need to give them everything that we've got and we need to ensure that all of their needs are met.

[Podcast Host]

Met.

[Nancy Sukarno]

But our needs needs to also be met. And that's going to take some time to understand and transition into as well that it is okay for me to be prioritizing things. I have prioritized for a very long time whilst now giving my time and attention to this child and wanting to be the best parent that I can be. And so it really is again about the sitting of discomfort and really giving yourself the time to be able to understand that transition happen overnight. And it might take months, years to get to a place where it really does feel like you're you again.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I do feel she's teaching me a lot. And it's crazy. Like I'm trying to, you know, just be very self aware as I go through these. Like, for example, when I did have that moment of frustration, I can get more frustrated feeling why can't I just be present and put my baby down and have mental breakdown which of course has happened. Or I can take that and have curiosity and be like, okay, well what is it about this scenario that is not. That's, that's unsettling for me.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Even like something else as simple as, like when I'm with her. Because it's so crazy. Like we're growing children in a generation with tech, which I think is not something that we went. It's not, it's not something we went through, especially the phone.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

And it's a tough one because we FaceTime grandparents every day. Yeah. So she knows what the phone is and already at six months old, if I have it out, she's looking straight at it and it's crazy. So I'm very, very intentional about not having it around when she's there.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So these little things have forced me to actually introspect and sort of think about my own habits. What's, what's something you've kind of learned about yourself as a byproduct of your girl?

[Nancy Sukarno]

I absolutely think that is a huge one for me because. And like you do work is on your phone and a lot of, or like you said, facetiming, family, texting, emailing, a lot happens on it. And so being aware of how much I use It. Because she is so aware of it. And so it really has highlighted to me how much time I spend on it. And it's a good conscious moment for me when I pick it up and she clocks it that I'm like, oh, now I can put it down. And I didn't have that before. Yeah, that. I mean, no one was tracking my phone usage and so Apple was. Well, yes, actually lots of people are tracking my phone usage, but it could have been half an hour, 45 minutes before I actually looked up from my phone.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Nancy Sukarno]

And so now that. That is very much. I'm more aware and conscious of my behavior and my tone and my mood and the language that I use and the way that I speak to myself. I think that there is. It really has almost like put up a mirror 100%, which has been challenging and helpful at the same time. I think that it really has given me a better and deeper understanding of the way that I operate because I'm looking at me through her eyes. And that's been really helpful, I think. And I've made lots of changes and I'm very. I'm very intentional about the things that I do now more so than I was before. And I like to think that I'm a quite an intentional person. But she really has shown me that lots of things are done with an unconscious mind, and it's made me more present.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, agree. And it's a beautiful thing to, you know, I think we. Especially with, like, social media use, there's so many things you can try, like the app limiters, but, like, ain't nothing like a little child looking at you, what you're doing to, like, make you really not. Not criticize, but, like, be aware of your own behaviors.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

If you're still watching at this point point, something here matters to you. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss future conversations. And if somebody came to mind during this episode, trust that instinct and share this with them. For someone watching this that is a parent or wants to be a parent, if there was one thing you wanted them to understand about the psychological shift that's going to happen to them moving into that transition, what would it be?

[Nancy Sukarno]

Parenthood really unveils a lot of the things that we keep in the dark. And it's very easy for us to keep on keeping on when we don't have to stop and reflect or be insightful or aware about the way that our behavior, thoughts, feelings, emotions impact someone else. It really does highlight to us the things that we are really great at. And it is a reciprocation in sorts of the time that we invest in something. And I think that, that if anyone wants to transition into parenthood, it is really important that they look introspectively first. I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to get to know yourself before you become a parent. And if you are in a partnership and wanting to transition into that parenthood role together, it is extremely important to get to know your relationship as deeply as you can because it bears all. And it's something that I think and have spoken about with clients, that it really is something that challenges you in good and bad ways and it gives you the opportunity to grow and develop and expand in ways you may not have before. It doesn't come without its difficulties. And I think that it is really important that we know that it isn't clean cut and there is no rule book on how to become a parent and no one can tell you how to do it the way you need to. And it's incredibly important that we back ourselves in this transition and that we really do support what it is that we value and guard ourselves and really take the time to build the boundaries, like you were saying, around what it is to be a parent for me and. Or my partner and what our dynamic will look like in the future. I think that that's not spoken about enough. It's the, you know, what to buy, what not to buy.

[Podcast Host]

Do we need a bouncer or not?

[Nancy Sukarno]

Yeah. You know, are we doing screen time or not? You know, to vaccinate, not to vaccinate. These conversations are huge, particularly online, you know, postpartum anxiety and depression. All of these conversations are had and I think not enough is talked about in terms of what can you do before all of this happens? What time can you invest in for yourself to be able to get yourself to a place where. And again, this is on a continuum and we're ever progressing through these versions of ourselves, but taking the time to get to know you, that really is. If I was to leave you with one thing, it is just really build on who you are first.

[Podcast Host]

Yep. And I definitely want to echo the that idea that there's seasons not just in you, but in your relationship as well and in your growing family. And so I think there's this. There's a skill around adaptability and change like you can. All of this work is necessary and important, but a lot of it happens on the fly as you're going. So just opening up the channels for that growth for that learning for that self understanding and, and, and holding that space for yourself or your partner or your relationship or your child, like that is the skill. I think that that takes you miles and allows you to like, move through the seasons too.

[Nancy Sukarno]

I think adaptability is probably my 2026 word for the year. Love it. It is the most important thing to really channel here is how adaptable can you be? And, and you know, the human race wouldn't be where it is today if we hadn't adapted to our environments, to our seasons, in our lives, in the world around us, in other people. And I think that that's something that we need to continue to really focus on 100%.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Nancy, this has been an absolute pleasure.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Genuinely is all mine to be able

[Podcast Host]

to connect with you in different like, you know, we're sitting in Dubai now. The first time we recorded, we're in Sydney. So much has happened in our life. I can't wait to see the next time I have you on, you know, what else has changed in our lives. But you're such a beautiful friend for me and I get to learn so much from you, from the professional work that you do as well. And so I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you carved out time on your holiday to sit with me today.

[Nancy Sukarno]

It's my absolute pleasure.

[Podcast Host]

And the fact that we could get

[Nancy Sukarno]

a podcast time in the week that I'm here has been incredible. I'm so glad we did it.

[Podcast Host]

Me too. Thank you so much for coming.

[Nancy Sukarno]

Thank you.