← The Balance Theory
The Balance Theory
Overwhelmed by Gut Health & Nutrition? Here's What You Actually Need to Know
00:50:55
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- [00:00]
Lisa Baker
There was a study done on people kissing. If you kiss for 10 seconds, you exchange about 80 million bacteria. The bacteria that you exchange may then well be interacting with your own microbiome. That would make a good Valentine's Day card, I reckon. Like a compatible. Today's guest is an in house nutritionist.
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Podcast Host
And product developer for Nutra Organics, mum of two and most recently author and.
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Lisa Baker
Illustrator of the dinner plate Pals.
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Podcast Host
Joining me on the podcast today is Lisa Baker. What do you think is the most exciting or the most concerning trend in the kind of nutrition space right now?
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Lisa Baker
Ozempic. Because I think the way that that suppresses the appetite, then people are going to be getting in less nutrients. It could go sort of one of two ways and a whole bunch of nutrient deficiencies or people turning to supplements only.
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Podcast Host
What do you think is the most interesting thing we currently know about the.
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Lisa Baker
Gut mother to baby? We kiss them, we can kind of detect what's going on and then our breast milk can change depending on what our baby needs.
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Podcast Host
The labels, this is not native for me. Right. As someone who's a consumer. So do you kind of have some key ingredients that like if you see on the back of a label automatically would kind of contradict like a healthy, clean claim that we should be looking out for?
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Lisa Baker
Yes. The really obvious sort of ones are.
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Podcast Host
Things like just a quick disclaimer before the show starts. Today's guest is going to provide some beautiful general advice. But for any of the topics discussed, if you do want personalized advice, we recommend you go and see a professional nutritionist or dietitian for your own specific needs. All right, balances. Today's guest is someone I'm really excited to have on the show. She's joining me here in the Pivotal Conversation studios on the Gold Coast. I am joined by Lisa Baker. Lisa, warm welcome to the show.
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Lisa Baker
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.
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Podcast Host
Erica, I'm really excited to have you on today. I find your professional kind of evolution really interesting. I know you were saying before, like, you know, when you're thinking about your job, it's you sometimes think, oh, it's not that interesting. But for someone as a consumer of many products and supplements, like your journey and working behind the scenes on that I find really, really interesting. So you started off as a dermal therapist. Right. So you were dealing a lot on external skin and body and then you kind of migrated into the internal body through dietitian and nutrition and all the things you're doing now. So can you talk to me about.
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Lisa Baker
That evolution yeah, definitely. So I really loved the one on one working with people. As a dermal therapist, I've always been someone who's like to help people with any insecurities. Skin is just such a source of insecurity if something's going wrong. And so I loved the that role and being able to help people get to the bottom of skin conditions and really help them. But after working in that space for a few years, I started noticing that a lot of the time the problems that they were experiencing on the surface were actually a sign of something that wasn't quite right underneath. And that topical treatments alone weren't able to do anything. And it was more diet and lifestyle stuff that was going to really make a difference there. And nutrition had always been a real passion area of mine. So at the ripe Age of 25 I had my quarter life crisis and just decided to go back to university and study nutrition so that I could get that really core knowledge and understanding of the body and how we should be treating it to get the most out of it.
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Podcast Host
So for you, was it a case of when you were working as a dermal therapist, there were like cases that you couldn't treat alone, just topically and that's kind of what spurred you to think about this?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, definitely it was. Yeah, you'd get people that were coming in with skin concerns and you'd get a little initial improvement by doing things topically, but it wouldn't continue to improve from there. And then I actually found that in those instances, sometimes self esteem would actually get worse because people would be spending more money and they'd be getting quite frustrated not getting the results they wanted. And we'd naturally start discussing things like diet and lifestyle. But I wasn't quite qualified or in a position to really give them any proper advice. Yeah, so that was really how it came about.
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Podcast Host
Interesting. So then you went back to study and then talk to me about how you fell into like nutrition product development.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, so when I first started, the intention was to get back into private consulting and become a nutritionist that sort of had one on one clients. But some of the papers that I was doing did overlap with the food technology students and I did really enjoy that side of things. And I was also really just impressed with the scope of. When you work with product development, you're able to reach millions. If you align yourself with a really good brand and they've got great reach and you can do some really good products, you actually have the potential to reach so many more people and make a really good Difference in the world. One on one is still amazing and I think I will do that again at some point to more of a capacity. But at the moment it's just so limited by time and energy that sure, one on one just isn't going to cut it at the moment.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, because it's like private consulting versus you. Because from what I understand now, you're like formulating products and creating them from scratch effectively for you work for Nutri Organics, which as everyone has been familiar with, is the sponsor of the show. I'm loving the products. So I am very interested to hear actually the back end of it. Particularly what's the process of creating a high quality product like from, from where you sit, you guys come up with a new concept or you're trying to refine something. Like what is the end to end process? Because as a consumer, you know, you pick it off the shelf, you don't really think much about it. But I'm actually really curious to hear what that process involves.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, it's quite a complicated process now. It's, it's a lot more comprehensive than it used to be.
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Podcast Host
Is that because it's a regulated space or it's.
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Lisa Baker
It's a regulated space. And also we're in a more sophisticated company. When I first joined Nutra, we were still a really small company. There was only about 15 staff members at the time and we were just really going for it and it was good fun. Now we're a much larger company with bigger moving parts and it's important to be talking to the other departments so they know what they're doing. There's a lot to get right and when you're operating on a bigger scale like that, if you get something wrong, the consequences are much bigger as well. And it's a much more expensive mistake. The process is sort of down to the to five steps. It starts with the ideation phase and that's just everyone chatting amongst themselves and ideas come from everywhere. We're also.
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Podcast Host
What do we want in the pantry?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, exactly. What do we want? And everyone who works at Nutra? Well, not everyone. A good proportion of people who work at Nutra are within our target demographic as well. So it is just solving our own problems. Yeah. So we're able to just bring it up even around the lunch table. Like, wouldn't it be cool if we had something. And then it will come into a meeting where all the ideas are thrown around and discussed and we pick a few to sort of pursue and then it will get to the second stage. Which is really your research phase. And that's kind of my personal favorite phase. It's when you start really pulling on threads where you start looking at, at different ingredients that you can use and seeing like, what appropriate dosages there are, whether you can actually achieve what you set out to achieve with what's available to you. And the marketing team will be looking into if there really is a good market for it. So just we go out and we gather lots more information to pull it together and see is this actually possible. And then the third phase is the product development phase, which is also a lot of fun. And that's where we order all of the ingredients and we get into the lab and we start mixing them together. And then once we are happy with the prototype, we'll bring it back for another meeting where everyone from the different departments gets together to weigh in and see if we're happy with the direction that it's going in. If we are really happy with the prototype, then we move ahead to larger batches so that we can get into a testing phase where everybody takes it home. We get feedback on their experience using it longer term. Start shelf stability testing, which is really boring but very important. And once it passes that stage, then it gets into the commercialization side of it. And that's where the marketing team gets to have all of the fun. And the poor product development team has to do all of this admin work alongside quality department and the operation side of things. So ordering everything on scale, making sure it gets made, and then doing all of the paperwork to make sure it gets all of its certifications. We do the training with everybody and we write compliant labeling, all of that sort of stuff.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, really interesting. I mean, there's so much that goes into it. Like you, you just, like I said, as a consumer, like, you're not really aware, but it is comforting to know it's such a rigid process and there's so many steps involved. You mentioned labels, which we'll get to in a minute. But how much of what you do is like for new products versus like refining existing products? You guys have, like, is that, does that form both a part of what you do?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, definitely both a part of what we do. We, we will do like product assessments every year, really? Just like tracking their performance and seeing if we're having any issues or seeing if we've come across any other ingredients in the market that could possibly improve formulations.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Like new research coming out. Like you're always hearing new supplements popping in and out. Like is that something you would weave in or like explore?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, definitely, yeah. And we've, and we definitely have that. Like our ingredient suppliers might be able to present a new ingredient that they didn't have before that even. It's a texture improvement. Just these little incremental improvements we're always doing because if you don't, you end up getting left behind. So I'd say it's about a 50, 50 split of our time is between new product development and also refining products that we already have and just making sure they're still the absolute best they can be on the market.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Well, very interesting to hear a bit about like your behind the scenes experience now as someone who has that knowledge. Right. And it's, it's like forms a big part of what you do every day. I want to flip to like how that applies to the consumer. Right. Because most of us don't have this kind of in depth knowledge and we're not creating products all the time. And whilst I find it fascinating on the flip side of it, I am still confused as a consumer when I'm shopping and looking at labels. And so one thing I wanted to ask you is kind of like those healthy, clean labels, are they useful for consumers? Like can we trust them or are they more misleading than what we think?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, that is such a good question. Because it is so complicated. There are a lot of rules in place in Australia that are designed to help us navigate that. But unless you actually understand those rules and understand their limitations, it can actually make it even more confusing rather than helpful. So an example that I've sort of come up with, I think the best way to describe it is with something as simple as an apple. If someone were trying to be selling an apple, imagine that the saying an apple a day keeps the doctor away was not like a cliche thing to say. Imagine it was new amazing marketing company came up with that slogan and was like, we're going to run with that campaign. If you put that as a campaign to sell an apple, that apple is no longer allowed to be categorized as a food, that is now a therapeutic good. Because that claim means that you're implying that an apple will help you either recover faster from illness or to get sick less often. And so you're now making like quite a strong health claim. So that even though it's still an apple that is now a therapeutic good, if you wanted to continue marketing that apple as a food, you could say an apple can support a normal immune system. So it's still saying something similar, but there's that really strong definition between, like, improving something and helping to support the normal functioning of something.
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Podcast Host
So the wording changes the way we categorize it.
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Lisa Baker
That's right.
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Podcast Host
From a regulatory standpoint.
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Lisa Baker
That's right. But if you're going to be making the claims that make it a therapeutic good, you then have to register with the tga. It's expensive. Your apples would probably then need to be made in a TGA facility. Like, there's a whole lot of other rules that come with it. So a lot of people don't want to go down that avenue if what they're selling is ultimately an apple or a food. So you need to think of ways of telling people this food is good for you without making it therapeutic. I have a bit of a problem with it personally, just because I feel like that messaging means that people will always believe because what they're being told is that medicines are better for them than foods. Whereas really, a good diet, a healthy, balanced diet, is gonna be better for you than medicine. Like, prevention is always much better than a cure. But so it gets really confusing. And then, of course, when people are trying to market something, it means that they're trying to dodge a bunch of different rules. And then the whole industry becomes a little bit funky. Yeah. So when you look at labels, there is always going to be some clever marketing going on. And your best way to navigate that is by reading the ingredient list. And that's always your source of truth. There will be companies that don't know the rules or have just decided to completely ignore the rules. And they're usually the smaller businesses. Once you make it into the supermarket, they've usually been cleaned up a little bit.
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Podcast Host
Really interesting. Like, I guess key takeaways for me is like, just to be mindful as a consumer that there are different ways things are categorized and that that puts brands in certain positions where they have to claim things in a certain way.
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Lisa Baker
Right.
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Podcast Host
And so not that it's misleading, but it is kind of structured in a way to be compliant rather than just what they actually want to say about the product.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, yeah, but then.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, but then if we're kind of like defaulting to. Or like the best source of truth is the labels. This is not native for me. Right. As someone who's a consumer. So do you kind of have some key ingredients that, like, if you see on the back of a label, automatically would kind of contradict, like a healthy, clean claim that we should be looking out for?
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Lisa Baker
Yes. The really Obvious sort of ones are things like when they're claiming low fat, but really, if you turn it over and you look at the ingredient list, there's a lot of sugars in there. If you've taken out fat and you've replaced it with sugar, you've actually made the product less healthy, even though the impression that it's giving on the front of a label is that it's more healthy. And another example would be people claiming high fiber. Like, fiber is another one that's really popular. And an ingredient that I really don't like to see when I see high fiber is something called polydextrose, which is. It's a synthetic, really cheap fibre that doesn't get digested in the body and it's got a lot of sugar alcohols in there. Can be a little bit disruptive to the gut microbiome. Usually the products, they've added that into protein and nut type bars, you see them a lot. And it improves the claims that that food can make because suddenly it's lower in energy and it's higher in fibre, but they've actually made the nutrient density of that food lower by adding that ingredient. So although the ingredient itself isn't dangerous, it's just a little bit disappointing to see when they've used it as a way to market it as a more healthy product, it's actually decreased nutritional value.
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Podcast Host
Because sometimes these ingredient lists, I mean, those are two really good points and just things that we can keep on, like, just make a quick note on your phone and look out for, like, that's really useful. But the ingredients list is sometimes so long and, like, I always find it crazy when you're like, this is like a. Let's just say, for example, I don't know, like a nut bar. And then nuts are like the last thing on my list. And I'm like, what else is in this thing? You know, it's like, it can be like, really overwhelming to kind of look at it. Is there, like, aside from those two really practical tips you've given, is it like a more simple way of breaking down labels or is it really a case of getting familiar with ingredients?
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, it really is a case of getting familiar with ingredients. I feel like every time something's been put in place to try and simplify it, it's actually added to the confusion. So reading the ingredient list is a great start. The shorter the ingredient list, usually the better, particularly when it comes to things like bar, if you're getting into product, that's, you know, the whole point of the product is to have a thousand different microgreens in there. That's, that's something that's a little bit different. But simpler products tend to be better if you read through it. And most of things, most of the ingredients in there sound like a food. That's also a really good start. But there's even cases where ingredients that don't sound like a food, they sound a little bit scary. They're actually okay. So it might be a bit of admin at the start to be looking up these things, but you know, sometimes things will even be referred to as like color additive. And then they'll put a number in there. And it might just be beetroot, but sometimes they've decided to list it by its color additive name as opposed to what the ingredient actually is. So it takes a little while to start getting familiar with it. Yeah. Unfortunately, there isn't really a shortcut to, to just being able to eyeball something and be like, cool, that's good for me. And that's not. It takes a bit of practice.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, well, it's just like any other form of literacy. Like if you want to get good at investing, you need to up your financial literacy. Like if this is something that's a pain point for you and you want to clean up the types of products you're consuming, like upping your nutritional literacy is going to be an invaluable part of that. Aside from the tips you've given, which I think are very practical and like ones we can just keep in the back of our mind as we're shopping as like a starting point. One of my favorite ways to nourish my body from the inside out, support my energy, immunity and gut health, and is through having bone broth every week. Now I used to make this religiously every single weekend. But between running my legal consulting business, this podcast, preparing to be a mom, finding from 8 to 24, sometimes 48 hours every single weekend to make myself a weekly bone broth has become a little bit unrealistic. That's why I'm so grateful that I found the Nutra Organics bone broth range. They offer both powders and concentrates for from paleo and vegan friendly options. All made with the highest quality Australian grass fed beef bones and certified organic pasture raised chicken bones. They're packed with all the immune and gut supporting benefits of a slow simmering broth, just minus the time commitment. And honestly, they taste amazing. I typically like to sip a little bit first thing in the morning, otherwise I just add A teaspoon into some plain rice for a bit more flavor. Or my curries or my soups for an instant gut loving and immunity boosting hit. If you're looking for a trusted and time saving way to start nourishing yourself from the inside out, the Nutri Organics Bone broth range is honestly a game changer and right now you can get 15% off. Head to nutraorganics.com the link is also in the show notes and use the code the Balance theory at checkout. Let's get back into today's episode. Are there any ingredients that you personally avoid? Like when if you were to see that on the back of a box, you'd be like, there's no way I'm buying that for my kids or for my house?
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Lisa Baker
Surprisingly not. I find I have a tendency to just naturally avoid things that are going to have artificial things and the artificial colors and flavours, those just aren't really the foods that are a normal go to. But people expect me as a nutritionist to really dislike a long list of things, but I actually don't. I find that once you get your core diet right and you're feeling really good about the foods you have, most of the time, you start to actually feel quite comfortable with a little bit of the stuff that's not so good as well. So if there's ever a food that I want, if I want the food overall and there's one ingredient in it that's not my favourite ingredient, I'm not gonna not have the food. Yeah, because I think also just a really relaxed mindset around food is so much better than having a perfect diet, I think. Yeah. When you start really avoiding ingredients, you can really go down this rabbit hole of researching anything that could go into any ingredient and then suddenly nothing's safe and then that's where things like orthorexia come in or you start passing your anxieties onto your children or they feel like they're being. They're missing out because they're not allowed to contribute or participate in kids parties and those sorts of things. So I think educating yourself enough to have a really good healthy base diet is wonderful, but to not get too stressed on the details, I think that's.
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Podcast Host
A really good call out because, you know, I'm very much for a realistic and a balanced way of doing things in life and I think anything too far on the extreme is just not sustainable for me personally. Like, if I was to have to unpick every single label of every single thing I ever Bought like food's also a source of enjoyment. And not all enjoyable food is necessarily healthy or nutrition, nutritional, but it's like a, a form of connection. It's a form of celebration. Like there are many different ways it can be honored. I think this is more like just to start building the foundation of like base level awareness for people to make choices most the time.
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Lisa Baker
Right.
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Podcast Host
It's not like this is how you must conduct your life, but I know it's becoming a conversation. Like you see more and more people kind of going back to that farm to table or like more organic way of, of doing things, making their own bread, making their own butters, making their own snacks for their kids. And I think it's a really nice shift, but I think it's also unrealistic for people to have that time even for themselves, like to meal prep. So to just have some things in the back of their mind. It's like, all right, when I'm making decisions, these are some of the things I might look out for. Yeah, like you said in like a relaxed way, I think is a nice way to look at it.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, definitely. Because I also remember it was another episode of yours that I was listening to. And I know that you've done some like calorie counting and things in the past and same.
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Podcast Host
We've all had our. I think it was, it was a good experience.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah. And it is, it is a really good experience. And you get so much learning. But like, you don't want that to become your permanent way of doing sustainable. Yeah, absolutely not. And it's. Yeah, it's great to go through these periods in life of really like focusing on an area and becoming literate in it to really understand it. So get, get immersed in it. But then once you've learned what you've needed to learn from that chapter, you can close the chapter and you can move on. You can focus on something else because food, to get like an untrusting relationship with food really impacts every area of your life. And it's boring. It's boring to think about constantly.
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Podcast Host
And it's like counterintuitive because food's meant to give you energy and make you feel strong and like, you know, fuel the way you want to live. So if it's, if it's constantly counted by toxic thoughts about food and, and being unpicked, like you're not actually getting the, the value of what you're eating anyway. So it's important to navigate that. But yeah, it's like for me, I see is like, can I upskill.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, right.
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Podcast Host
Like can I, can I add value to my decision making? Which is why I was really excited to have this conversation. And I think the tips you've given are like, they're very practical and they're not too technical to a point where they can just help with, you know, if you're choosing between two products, the one that's got more real food in the ingredients and less ingredients is probably a healthy option. Just like a quick on the spot decision, you know, really, really useful.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
In saying that, do you think that high quality supplements in any situation, like any particular situation can be better than actual food?
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Lisa Baker
I immediately, I want to say no, you will never be able to out supplement a bad diet. However, there are definitely situations where people are either unable to have a really good based diet or they are asking a lot of their bodies and so they need to get a lot more bang for their buck, need to get a lot more nutrients in and they wouldn't be able to get all of that from their normal diet. And even in situations such as pregnancy where like suddenly your nutritional requirements are much higher and your belly's feeling all kinds of pushed around and it's really difficult to get the volume of food in that you need to actually hit those nutritional targets. So there's definitely times where supplementing your diet is just so important. But yeah, I would never put supplements above a really healthy, just whole food diet.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Actually. I didn't think that I wasn't thinking of it in this, in the phrase of there are seasons where that's actually useful because even now if I reflect on my experience, you know, people always like, oh, you're eating for two, all this stuff. I'm like, I'm actually eating normally, but I'm actually getting full a lot quicker. Like there's less space. I don't know how people eating more than what they normally eat. So I'm finding myself like I'm trying to be very conscious of making sure I'm eating enough protein because when I was calorie counting I realized like, wow, it's very hard for me to actually hit my protein requirements during this pregnancy. I've really tried to make sure that's the case, but it's not. It hasn't been that easy because like I said, like, I'm getting full quicker. So things like high quality protein powders and stuff like that have been really key for me to make sure I'm hitting those benchmarks.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah. And that's exactly it. They are designed to supplement because it is hard to achieve those specific targets when you're. When you've got a goal in mind or you're asking a lot of your body. So, yeah, there's a wonderful place for both. But yeah, I'd never put supplements above whole foods either.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. If we kind of switch gears now and talk a little bit about gut health, it's something that's, I think over the last few years become a lot more prominent. You see a lot more research being spoken about. It's an area I find really, really fascinating. What do you think is the most interesting thing we currently know about the gut?
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Lisa Baker
It's so difficult to pick one thing just because that area of research is like evolving so quickly. I think it's been about 70,000 papers in the last 20 years and it's. Yeah, it's just wild. It's. Now the research seems to be moving more towards trying to understand what we're actually talking about when we say a healthy microbiome because it's so different from person to person. And the research used to be more about like what the different strains of bacteria would actually do in the gut, but seems like we've had a bit of a dead end with some of that. And it's not just about what each individual strain of bacteria does, it's also about how they interact with each other. So you might say have one little bacteria who's not doing a great job in one person's gut, but in somebody else's because he's with different bacteria and they interact differently. Suddenly the role that he's playing in that gut is really beneficial. So there's still lots of amazing research being done on individual strains. And people can be taking probiotics that have been well researched to actually give you a beneficial effect, but it doesn't really necessarily translate to a long term change within the gut. So you need to be looking at it more holistically and then from there a healthy gut microbiome now starting to understand the impact that, that now has on things like mental health and your immune system and just every aspect of health. And one little area of research that I'm finding really funny is the research of human attraction and the microbiome.
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Podcast Host
Interesting.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah. There was a study done on people kissing. If you kiss for 10 seconds, you exchange about 80 million bacteria. And the bacteria that you exchange may then well be interacting with your own microbiome to give you a signal of whether or not you are compatible with this person. So like, if you've ever given someone a nice 10 second kiss after a date and then gotten the ick with them straight after that, it might actually just be your gut microbiome saying no thank you to their gut microbiome. And that's actually got nothing to do with them being a bad kisser. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
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Podcast Host
That's like kind of unromantic, but like super interesting. It's like they say the gut's like a second brain. It's literally like a. Yeah, a dating meter.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, it is. That would make a good Valentine's Day card, I reckon. Like a yoga microbiome. And mine are compatible.
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Podcast Host
That is so interesting. So is that just newer research that's come out? I've never heard of that.
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Lisa Baker
Yeah, it's just, it was on a. Another podcast I was listening to recently. It is quite new and it's just like following that thread. I don't know who's got the funding to like go off and follow that tangent and save it. I think it's really, really cool. I love the detailed side of the microbiome research when they really start getting quite specific, like even things like mother to baby and how when we kiss them, we can kind of detect what's going on. And then our breast milk can change depending on what our baby needs. There's, yeah, a lot of amazing signaling that's happening.
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Podcast Host
Can you, can you walk us through that, that process, like on a more technical level? Because I've heard this as well. Like your breast milk, your breast milk can, you know, create more. What's the word? They're like immune response.
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Lisa Baker
Oh yeah, yeah. What are they called? The. Yeah, the immune response at different immune cells, Globulins and those.
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Podcast Host
I don't know the technical word, but like kind of like the immunity cells, like you can produce more. Like they say if you're breastfeeding and your baby's sick, like to store some of that breast milk for like the next time they're sick because it would have like more immunity. So anyway, I don't know.
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Lisa Baker
That's a good turn.
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Podcast Host
Yeah. Because it would be like bolstered because it's received that signal. So do you have like any, I guess, more detailed understanding of that process that you can walk me through?
- [30:18]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, I mean, it's not my, it's not my area of expertise that, that one. It's more interest in having been a mum as well. Like I was just frothing on that sort of research. So. Yeah, it's a case of you get the feedback from even their scent gives off signals to you that you can respond to kissing them and you get some of their bacteria or if they've got some germs and then if it makes its way into your gut, then your immune system can respond to it and send signals. You've got the vagus nerve that sends send signals to your brain or you've even got straight into your. Straight through the gut lining and into your blood flow, which then goes through your lymph nodes. It's just, it's such an interactive system between you and your baby and then it will go and then feed the breast milk and upregulate certain nutrients that the baby might be deficient in or it can help to stimulate that immune response.
- [31:18]
Podcast Host
So interesting. It just got me thinking, like, if you're breastfeeding and then like you're kissing your partner, like it's like this whole mix.
- [31:24]
Lisa Baker
Yeah. Like it's gross. Right. But so cool.
- [31:27]
Podcast Host
It's like how many mixed signals are going on down there. But like, also if you're feeding your family all the same foods, like, arguably you kind of have similar micro. Gut microbiome. Is that fair to say?
- [31:38]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, yeah, you do. And it's. And that. That has been researched quite thoroughly as well. And when people partner up, move in together, gradually, the microbiome. Yeah. You'll get in sync, it will change over and they'll be very similar. But then if big things happen, like say the family moves to another country and then you've got different exposures there, then everyone's microbiome will start to change again.
- [32:01]
Podcast Host
Really interesting. I feel like we're just scratching the surface on all this stuff.
- [32:05]
Lisa Baker
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [32:06]
Podcast Host
It's so like detailed and interwoven and the human body is so. I mean, I'm now in awe of it even more like going through pregnancy. But it's just so fascinating to me. So interesting. You have to keep me posted with any new research you find that's interesting. We can maybe do a part two in like 12 months and.
- [32:23]
Lisa Baker
Oh, I'd love that.
- [32:24]
Podcast Host
What's the, what's the update?
- [32:25]
Lisa Baker
What's happened now? Yeah, yeah. See what the outcome was with that whole kissing one. That's what I know.
- [32:29]
Podcast Host
Exactly. So there's obviously a lot of fads that come in time, like with nutrition, like the detox keto. There's like just so many buzzwords that come and go, I feel all the time. Have you ever refused to develop a product or like, do that research piece on A product that wasn't really backed by science. And more on this like trending bandwagon, whether it's like for the gut or for kids or just generally. Have you found yourself ever in a position where you had to do that?
- [32:59]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, I've. I've been pretty lucky. I've actually never been asked to work on something that I have moral and ethical issues with. But like having said that, quite often when I start a project, it might get abandoned partway through for whatever reason. Either we don't think that it can deliver what we hope that it's going to deliver or no one's going to take it because it tastes disgusting, those sorts of things. But one thing we've actually taken a really strong stand on is the meal replacements thing. Like, we can understand that there's like a time and a place where meal replacements are actually quite. Can be beneficial to people. Like if they're really struggling to get meals in, there's people that can really benefit. But there was definitely that feeling of responsibility to our own target demographic that we felt it was just really inappropriate to be putting a meal replacement out there. Because I think that sends the signal that supplements should replace food. Yeah. And then it does contribute to diet culture. And I think if your target market is, you know, women of a sort of age group where they're probably going to be a little bit self conscious still and might be contribute like in the diet culture, you don't want to be doing any harm or like preying on anyone's insecurities for a quick buck. So meal replacements was one of those things where like that has the potential to cause harm and absolutely won't. Some other fads when they pop up, things like going keto and then doing detox things, usually with most fads there's like an element of truth behind it.
- [34:40]
Podcast Host
It started somewhere.
- [34:41]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, it started somewhere and it usually started from some quite good research that then got taken out of context and then everybody started doing it and did it in a really weird way, supporting those that there are supplements that you could do that would support the normal detoxification process of the body and that would be fine. But then. But what wouldn't be fine is to tell people to stop eating food and take these products and this will detox your liver for you. But yeah, I've never been asked to do that. So that's, that's. Yeah, yeah, that's good. And I wouldn't do it either. And that's where my own personal ethics come in as well. I wouldn't work for a company that was purely profits driven. I do understand that the supplement industry is quite an attractive one for people to start a business in. These are quite high priced items and often people. Yeah. And recurring. Exactly. So I can see that it can be lucrative. But for people that get into it for that reason only, their potential to do harm is just so great. And if they don't have that respect for nutrition, then they can just be creating products that are completely inappropriate and then contributing to this, this idea that people shouldn't be eating healthy. Balanced diets.
- [35:55]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, very interesting. And I, you know, I imagine it'll be hard when a market is demanding something based on a fad.
- [36:02]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [36:02]
Podcast Host
But it's, it's really nice to hear the ethics behind brands and like product developers that, you know, it's not all about profit.
- [36:12]
Lisa Baker
No.
- [36:12]
Podcast Host
Like I said, it's difficult to know sometimes and pull apart from a consumer perspective. But I, I think we do live in a time now where a brand personality and the brand values are under scrutiny a lot more.
- [36:25]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [36:25]
Podcast Host
And consumers are prepared to say, hey, like what are you guys doing about sustainability and you know, organically sourced products and whatnot? Like, I think people are holding brands a lot more accountable, which is really nice to see.
- [36:38]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [36:38]
Podcast Host
But if you don't know and you don't take the time to look into it, it's difficult to tell from the outset. So.
- [36:43]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, yeah, that's great. And that's another example though of like, you know, it's a little bit of research at the beginning, but so worth it because once you do find a brand that you actually feel like they're being really transparent and you can see the people that are behind the brand, you understand what they stand for, then, then you can relax a little bit most and just be like, great, I found my people.
- [37:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [37:05]
Lisa Baker
And they're delivering what you need. So you first need to get clear on what it is that you want. Your own diet and your own health. And then you can find people that align with you rather than the other way around. Because if you're just being sold to by anybody, like who knows what you'll buy?
- [37:17]
Podcast Host
Anything. Yeah, exactly, 100%. So you're a mom of two as well. How do you apply kind of everything you've learned and what you do for work in, in the nutrition sector space to your home and for your kids?
- [37:32]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, I think the, the main thing that my, that being a nutritionist has really helped me with, with parenting is just the communication around food, like being able to get a few layers deeper into that. Why vortex when kids are really questioning you on stuff, helping them to understand why we eat healthy food has been really, really helpful. And so yes, the communication thing is huge. Other areas have been able to apply. It is. I involve them a lot and I'm able to have lots of discussions with them. Like when we're doing the supermarket shopping, we'll do it together. They eat the same foods that my husband and I eat. I approach nutrition in a really relaxed way with them and they're not. Nothing is banned from them. Like we'll go out to the kids parties and they're straight to the lollies and the fairy birds and things. The fairy bread. And I'm just. And it's fine. I might even have a slice of fairy bread every once in a while too. That's all good for me. It's given me that confidence and I've been able to be really relaxed about what I feed my kids. I'm definitely not one of those mums that you sometimes see on Instagram that are like, oh, my child ate lentils, blueberries and sauerkraut today and that's it. Yeah. We have a very normal looking diet but I know that it covers all the nutritional bases and they're super healthy.
- [38:53]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I think that's going to be comforting for a lot of people to hear because I mean there's obviously a gold standard and, and people that looks different to everyone. Yeah. Right. In terms of what the ideal is. But you do have to be realistic with like your time and, and access and, and what you can afford. And there's like many different things you need to think about when you're comparing.
- [39:12]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [39:13]
Podcast Host
Or putting together like what's right for your family. But it's just always interesting to hear Right. When you know, someone does something professionally like how they then applying that in the home you shared with me today and you very kindly gifted me some kids books that you have put together which I guess is an offshoot of, of, of this where you're bringing nutrition education to your children, to your home. Tell us a bit about those and where people can find them.
- [39:38]
Lisa Baker
Thank you. Yeah, so I've, I've got a website, coffeetable nutrition.com just where I sell the books and Nutra has actually been really supportive of this little side project of mine as well and have made some of the books available in different bundles in the past and it's a series called the Secret Adventures of the Dinner Plate Pals. And it's super Nerdy, because it's like a little fantasy adventure that each food goes on, which is based on a nutrient that's in that food. And so it's actually a little bit biologically accurate what's going on in each story. But it really gets down to the why of eating healthy food. And it's just a really cute adventure story that starts out with a kid that something's not quite right, and then they eat this healthy food. And then the healthy food goes on. A little adventure in the body to fix the problem. And then at the end, there's a little dedication for the parent to understand that, like, this adventure was all based on something like folate, which helps bones to grow, or protein to make you strong, or complex carbohydrates to give you energy. So it's a bit of education for the parents there, a really cute why for the. For the kids. And then they can get really excited about eating that particular food. And it's been really cute. It's. Can't believe it's really that easy. Like, read them a story and suddenly they want it. But, like, there's been some great results of kids that weren't eating different vegetables, and now they do after reading the little stories. So, yeah, I'm really thrilled that I was able to share that with people.
- [41:10]
Podcast Host
Amazing.
- [41:10]
Lisa Baker
Yeah. It was purely just from making up little stories at the dinner table when my son was starting to eat that, that the dinner plate pals were born.
- [41:20]
Podcast Host
I love it. I think it's brilliant. And thank you so much for gifting me some of those. I'm going to put a link to it in the show notes so people can check them out. There are a lot of moms that are listening, and, you know, I think the. I remember reading or listening, you know, hearing people talk about the way you're kind of thinking about food as you're digesting it, how present you are. Like, that all plays a part in how it's actually broken down, absorbed in the body. And so I think of how powerful, like a visualization for a child is that it's going in and healing. Like, having that visualization as you're eating is so powerful. Like, it's not just a story. It's actually building the block of the association you give that food. Like the story you're telling yourself as you're eating it, as opposed to, like, I'm eating something unhealthy. This is so bad for me.
- [42:04]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Podcast Host
You know, what, what. What is that contributing to as you're digesting so, so I think it's very sweet. I love it.
- [42:10]
Lisa Baker
Thank you so much. Yeah. And I think it's just really important that. That you have that ability to be able to communicate with them in a way that doesn't make the meal time a time for anxiety, because it's so easy to start getting really irritated if some. Your little ones aren't eating what they're supposed to be eating, but just it gives you that whole new avenue of being able to talk to them about it and. Yeah. And just helps build those blocks of a lifelong love of healthy food.
- [42:36]
Podcast Host
Love it. It's great. Is there a common nutrition rule that you strongly disagree with?
- [42:42]
Lisa Baker
Yes. Yeah, there is. And particularly relating to children, and that's the rule of, like, not offering a replacement if they aren't eating a particular meal. And I can understand 100 where that rule started coming from, but I've seen it now sort of used in a way that it basically just becomes not giving children food. And that's really stressful for everybody. And, like, withholding food from children can be quite damaging. And there can be all sorts of reasons why children are refusing food. And so I think this attitude of, like, only offer them the same thing until they eat it, it can cause a lot more harm than good because it could be a textural thing where they're really struggling with it, and it will ultimately build a bit of anxiety for the child. And at the end of the day, they might not have had as much to eat as they should have if they're not being offered alternatives. You definitely don't want to get stuck into that cycle of offering them something, and they know that they're going to be offered something that they prefer, like, if they keep refusing it. So a workaround for that one might actually be when you're trying to encourage them to eat something that they usually refuse, pair it with something that they usually accept. So at least they're getting something. But I would say don't be afraid to offer them something else if. If they're just refusing their meal. You haven't failed as a parent if you give in and you give them something else. Because we also lose sight of the fact that energy is a nutrient. It's like the main nutrient, really. And now we're in this world of abundance where energy is everywhere. We usually actually think of energy as something we're trying to avoid and we want the other nutrients. But, like, particularly for children while they're growing, energy is the nutrient. Just get it on them.
- [44:30]
Podcast Host
Get them to eat something.
- [44:31]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, absolutely.
- [44:32]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, okay, interesting. I mean, because I'm obviously not really close yet to that phase where I'm thinking of solids and feeding and stuff. Like, I hadn't really thought of that.
- [44:40]
Lisa Baker
So that's a couple of other things to get through faster.
- [44:43]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually quite useful. Yeah. I'm thinking about the breast milk first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really interesting last question for me. What do you think is the most exciting or the most concerning trend in the kind of nutrition space right now?
- [44:58]
Lisa Baker
Gosh, can I pick more than one?
- [45:00]
Podcast Host
Sure.
- [45:02]
Lisa Baker
Most concerning first, Ozempic. I am like deeply sort of concerned about Ozempic and what that will end up meaning for diet culture moving forward. Because I think the way that that suppresses the appetite, then people are going to be getting in less nutrients and it could go sort of one of two ways and a whole bunch of nutrient deficiencies or people turning to supplements only instead of food because they're not going to be able to fit real food in.
- [45:34]
Podcast Host
Is it true that Ozempic is something that was prescribed for like diabetes? So it's actually like a useful tool in some instances, but it's just been taken because of these other side effects as kind of like a diet hack. Right. Is that my understanding?
- [45:52]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, that's right. It was an intervention. And that's just so typical of lots of research actually that happens. You do something like even a study on a particular population and it benefits that population, but then the results get taken out of context and then lots of other people want those results too, even though it doesn't apply to that.
- [46:16]
Podcast Host
They don't have the initial problem.
- [46:17]
Lisa Baker
Exactly. So Ozempic, so good to be able to have that tool in situations where it's really, really needed. But then when people are just like, yay, finally, the pill that suppresses my appetite, now I can use it as like a just losing a few kilos. It's taken away again from that intuitive eating thing where rather than people who would have been in a position to maybe just reassess some of their lifestyle factors, they've chosen to go for something that disrupts their body's natural flow and they've now taken more manual control over a process that should be natural.
- [46:58]
Podcast Host
And arguably the source of the problem is it remains, you know.
- [47:02]
Lisa Baker
Exactly.
- [47:03]
Podcast Host
You might have physically different changes, but the habits.
- [47:07]
Lisa Baker
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Podcast Host
And whatnot. That support and sit around that like, surely you can't be on it forever.
- [47:11]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, yeah. And I think you'll, we'll see later down the track what the longer term consequences of that are. But that's why it's concerning because that remains to be seen and it's just the start and it's. Yeah, so it's concerning certainly. But the things I'm really excited about end. On a much more jovial note. I'm really excited about the longevity research. I think that's really cool.
- [47:35]
Podcast Host
Is there anything specifically that's sticking out to you?
- [47:38]
Lisa Baker
Oh, Living forever might be on the cards.
- [47:41]
Podcast Host
Not really but Brian Johnson on yes.
- [47:45]
Lisa Baker
Yep. But it's like I now take the like nad.
- [47:51]
Podcast Host
Yes. I've got low button ad.
- [47:52]
Lisa Baker
Yeah. And. And resveratrol and those sorts of things. I just feel like research in that general direction like if you're aiming for longevity you by default end up going for things that are a more sustainable like more holistic benefit to you. So I love that approach and also that it will change people's mindset and what they're doing in their own diet. So rather than going for those short term fixes to achieve a certain result, they're now thinking longer term. And so things like building muscle becomes more important. Keeping bone mineral density becomes more important. Just yeah. Future proofing because like we plan on being here a really long time and we want to feel our best for as long as possible. So the longevity research is really cool and always where that stuff like that researchers product development follows. So it's. That's exciting for me professionally as well. Women specific research. I find that really exciting. I'm so pleased that like chats around menopause and the different stages of the cycle are becoming more mainstream because we do need to have more empathy for our own bodies and how to treat it at different stages of our lives and at different stages of our cycle. So I'm so glad that that conversation is forefront and that that's really being catered to now.
- [49:09]
Podcast Host
They're both very exciting. I, I too am excited about longevity because it's forcing you to think about the long term in this, in what feel like short term decisions. Like for example people always ask me like oh how are you so motivated to go to the gym all the time? And I'm thinking about 80 year old me that I want to be able to walk around on my own and pick things up. And you know that's at the back of my mind. I'm not thinking of oh these eight weeks I want to achieve xyz. You know it has this longer term kind of back end goal and so it's kind of. It drives your decisions differently. Right. It's no longer about the now and being 20 forever. Yeah, it's about actually thinking about the reality of life and what direction am I moving in.
- [49:47]
Lisa Baker
Yeah, it was so good. I remember having a chat with a friend after having given birth and I was like, becoming a mum has completely changed the way I work out. Like, I used to work out to look good and now I work out because I don't want to be incontinent when I'm like 60. So, yeah, it's completely changed the motivation there and it's actually like, yeah, I'm kinder to myself now than I used to be and yeah, I want to be here for a long time. Yeah.
- [50:14]
Podcast Host
And it's also like appreciates the realistic aspect of the human experience which is not frozen in time and it's not, I guess, one season forever. Yeah, you go through many seasons and I think that's actually a really beautiful thing. But thank you so much for joining me today on the show and for sharing a lot about your experience, your work, the way you integrate this into your personal life, the things you're learning. I've learned a lot today. I know the listeners would have as well. So I really appreciate your time.
- [50:44]
Lisa Baker
Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.
- [50:46]
Podcast Host
Likewise. Thank you.
- [50:47]
Lisa Baker
Thank you.
- [50:58]
C
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