The REAL Reason Progress Isn't Making You Feel Better w Annalie Howling

Summary

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The Balance Theory with Erika De Pellegrin

Episode: The REAL Reason Progress Isn't Making You Feel Better w/ Annalie Howling

Date: May 11, 2025
Guest: Annalie Howling (Author, Trauma Specialist, Performance Coach)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Erika De Pellegrin is joined by Annalie Howling, trauma specialist, performance coach, and author of the new book Unapologetic. Together, they dive deep into the complexities of shame, self-worth, people-pleasing, and the real roots of why progress sometimes fails to bring true satisfaction or inner peace. The conversation offers practical insight into boundary-setting and escaping the cycle of shame and external validation, all with a focus on achieving genuine self-liberation and balance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hidden Workings of Shame

[00:00–04:58]

• Annalie opens with a powerful reflection on her own and her clients' experiences, stating how shame permeates every aspect of life and often underlies feelings of inadequacy:

  "We are ashamed of our shame... It's this 'I am' identity that sits within us. I am helpless, I am weak, I'm not enough, I'm unworthy." (Annalie, 05:07)

• Shame is contrasted with guilt: guilt is about actions ("I did something bad"), but shame is about identity ("I am bad"). This distinction is critical in understanding the emotional drivers behind overachieving or people-pleasing behaviors.

2. Shame vs. Guilt and Limiting Beliefs

[07:34–08:54]

• Annalie explains the difference, crediting EMDR therapy and trauma work for unveiling deeply held limiting beliefs rooted in shame.

  “So when we do trauma... we look for the 'I am' statement in the worst moment. That's the limiting belief that lives inside you.” (Annalie, 08:00)

3. The Conditioning of ‘Good Girl’ and Conditional Love

[09:59–13:14]

• Annalie discusses the dangers of conditioning children (especially girls) with praise linked to behavior rather than personhood.

  "I want her to have her value on being herself. I always say to Amber, 'You're so easy to love exactly as you are.'" (Annalie, 12:13)

• She notes that internalized shame from childhood produces adults who may accept less than they deserve in relationships.

4. Releasing Shame: Vulnerability and Sharing

[13:39–17:27]

• Progress against shame is gradual, sometimes requiring “letting out steam from the kettle” one small admission at a time.

• Annalie recounts pivotal moments when sharing her struggles with trusted friends helped her begin to unburden shame:

  “That was the first bit of steam coming out of my kettle of shame.” (Annalie, 14:49)

• Her book is intentionally not a "how-to cure shame" manual, but a collection of stories and insights aiming to normalize shame and foster connection.

5. Boundary-Setting, Obligations, and Saying ‘No’

[20:30–24:18]

• The distinction between acts of service and obligation is critical to maintaining healthy boundaries. Annalie encourages listeners to ask: Do I feel I should do this or do I want to?
• Obligations and people-pleasing often stem from internalized “shoulds” (the voice of the inner critic), and breaking these patterns requires both internal clarity and external communication.

6. Growing Apart, Changing Relationships & ‘Support vs. Surveillance’

[22:37–27:56]

• Annalie discusses the pain of realizing some people are invested in the “old version” of you and may not cheer you on as you change.

  “Not everyone that you think is going to be in your team or in your corner is going to be around to cheer for you because potentially the old version of you served them better.” (Annalie, 22:47)

• Erika and Annalie talk about friendship breakups, passive-aggressive dynamics, and how sometimes what looks like “support” is actually “surveillance.”

  “Are they supporting you or is it surveillance? Sadly, a lot of the time, people are just keeping tabs. They're not actually ready to see you win.” (Annalie, 25:49)

7. Navigating Difficult Friendships & Covert Narcissism

[28:02–31:03]

• Some friends display entitlement or victimhood, wanting what others have without doing the work—this can manifest as passive-aggressive comments or lack of accountability.

  “You can always tell that it's narcissism because there's still this sense of entitlement. They believe they should have what you have without doing any of the work.” (Annalie, 28:23)

• Annalie suggests gently placing distance between yourself and such individuals, focusing instead on cultivating relationships with those who celebrate your growth.

8. Creating Safe Spaces and the Importance of Community

[32:19–34:21]

• For those without an obvious support system, the process can begin with honest self-talk and seeking anonymity in online forums.
• Start small with new relationships, testing trust before going “all in.”

9. Alone vs. Lonely and Learning to Enjoy Your Own Company

[36:18–41:50]

• Annalie shares her personal journey from fearing time alone—rooted in childhood trauma—to actively craving and enjoying solitude:

  “Now, I crave my own company... I really like myself. Like, I love myself, I love my own company. Me and me and me—we're really happy together.” (Annalie, 41:31)

• Society rewards busyness, but unexamined over-scheduling can serve as avoidance of deeper emotions and self-acceptance.

10. Boundaries, Authenticity, and Joy

[43:25–50:28]

• Effective boundary-setting involves honest communication about your current capacity and trusting that true friends will respect and accept it.

• Annalie stresses that giving the best version of yourself—even if for less time—is more valuable to loved ones than overextending and offering only leftovers.

  “All your children want is your own joy... If you need to go and get a massage or do a yoga class... they get you maybe for an hour less, but they get you 100% more.” (Annalie quoting Gabor Mate, 48:28)

• “Selfishness” is redefined as necessary self-care that enables deeper connections with others.

11. Foundations for Saying ‘No’ and Living Authentically

[50:28–52:54]

• Erika summarizes that before one can effectively set boundaries and say no, they must clarify their own values and priorities:

  “When you have that strong [foundation]... it's so easy to communicate that to other people because it's just obvious to me.” (Erika, 51:20)

• Both agree that the self-development journey is ongoing, with continual opportunities for deeper introspection and growth.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Annalie Howling [05:07]:
  "We are ashamed of our shame... It's this 'I am' identity that sits within us."
• Annalie Howling [13:39]:
  "The way that shame is released out of your system: if you imagine it's like a kettle, you've got to let the steam out...finding opportunities to let a little bit out at a time."
• Annalie Howling [22:47]:
  "Not everyone that you think is going to be in your team or in your corner is going to be around to cheer for you because potentially the old version of you served them better."
• Annalie Howling [25:49]:
  "Are they supporting you or is it surveillance? Sadly, a lot of the time, people are just keeping tabs. They're not actually ready to see you win."
• Annalie Howling [41:31]:
  "Now, I crave my own company... I really like myself. Like, I love myself, I love my own company. Me and me and me—we're really happy together."
• Annalie quoting Gabor Mate [48:28]:
  "All your children want is your own joy... if you need to go and get a massage or do a yoga class... they get you maybe for an hour less, but they get you 100% more."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:58 – Opening, introduction, and unpacking shame
• 07:34–08:54 – Shame vs. guilt and link to limiting beliefs
• 09:59–13:14 – Good girl conditioning and its long-term impact
• 13:39–17:27 – Moments of releasing shame and the structure of Annalie’s book
• 20:30–24:18 – Navigating obligation vs. genuine acts of love
• 22:37–27:56 – Managing expectations with others; ‘support vs. surveillance’
• 28:02–31:03 – Covert narcissism and boundary challenges in relationships
• 32:19–34:21 – Creating safe sharing spaces
• 36:18–41:50 – Alone vs. lonely; cultivating self-enjoyment
• 43:25–50:28 – Setting boundaries and recalibrating friendships
• 50:28–52:54 – Foundations for setting boundaries and communication
• 51:36–52:54 – Episode close and final points on authenticity

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Summary & Takeaways

• Shame’s True Power: Shame thrives in isolation and drives perfectionism, people-pleasing, and the endless pursuit of external validation.
• Lifelong Patterns: Childhood conditioning, especially around being a “good girl” or tying love to behavior, often surfaces in adulthood as unhealthy boundaries and self-concept.
• Breaking Free: Releasing shame is an ongoing process, best achieved through vulnerability, safe community, and gentle self-acknowledgment—never through quick fixes.
• Friendship & Growth: Not everyone will accompany you as you grow. Authenticity sometimes means letting go of relationships that no longer align.
• Boundary-Setting: Clear, compassionate communication—rooted in self-awareness and genuine priorities—fosters healthier relationships and deeper self-respect.
• Self-Love & Joy: Nurturing yourself first is not selfish; it's essential for sustaining meaningful and joyful connections with others.

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For further exploration: Annalie’s book Unapologetic is available internationally, and she shares more about the topics from this episode through her professional work and social platforms.

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Transcript

[Annalee Howling]

I'm not having sex with my partner. I think my marriage is failing. I am failing at my job and I don't want people to know. I just finished this university degree and my parents supported me and they're so proud of me and I don't want to go into the career that I said I'd chosen. We are ashamed of our shame. Today's guest is an author, trauma specialist and performance coach. Her mission is to help people understand and become free from shame, to become unapologetically themselves. Joining us on the podcast today is Annalee Howling. Not everyone that you think is going to be in your team or in your corner is going to be around to cheer for you because potentially the old version of you serve them better. Are they supporting you or is it surveillance? And sadly, a lot of the time people are just keeping tabs. They're not actually ready to see you win.

[Podcast Host]

Do you like proactively have a conversation about it or do you just let it run its course?

[Annalee Howling]

If there is someone sat around your table that will not cheer for you now, they're not going to cheer for you later, and I don't want them there. There is quite a lot of COVID narcissism and victimhood, narcissism that can play out, particularly in female friendships.

[Podcast Host]

What does that look like?

[Annalee Howling]

Passive aggressive. Easy for you. Oh, it's so hard for me. You've got this and I haven't got that. You can always tell that it's narcissism because there's still this sense of entitlement. So they believe that they should be having what you have without doing any of the work.

[Podcast Host]

Say no and stay at home and do nothing or read a book or just like hang out with another friend if that's what I actually want to do instead of hanging out with this friend. What's your take on kind of learning to set boundaries and say no?

[Annalee Howling]

So I would say.

[Podcast Host]

And the Leah, warm welcome to the Balance Theory.

[Annalee Howling]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Podcast Host]

I'm really excited to get into your new book, Unapologetic Chat, a little bit about you, your work, where you've come from. And I just want to say before we get into it, I have skim read the book because I've now just got in my hard copy. It's now just come out and I want to read it properly, cover to cover. But as I was skim reading, there were things in there that I didn't realize resonated with me or were things that I struggled with. And I know that that's going to hit home for a lot of listeners too. So I'm very exc. Excited to get into all those topics today. I think what would be really useful is if we start with you and how you got to speaking about some of the topics you do today about self liberation, shame, guilt, the big topics. How did you get to a point where this was like the focus of your work?

[Annalee Howling]

I think to be completely honest and having kind of gone through the book, writing the book, getting it out in the world and then lots of conversations about it and time for me to reflect on it, it's probably I got there from breaking apart myself and from realizing that, you know, I'm a coach and a therapist and I work in that space and I'm around amazing people in my peer group and you know, kind of in this development area. And yet something still wasn't maybe working for me or I was still having issues. I speak quite openly just to trigger warning this about self harm that I dealt with for many years, which I now understand and know is a form of ocd. And I had to find a way to heal my insides before being able to heal my outside. And it was shame. Shame was the thing that was. Was driving all of this. And you mentioned some things that that resonated. I'm sure we'll unpack that. But for me, I hadn't appreciated the roots that shame take in your system and quite how much it kind of like permeates into just everything. Like a lot of my behaviors, a lot of choices I was making or not making, how I was or wasn't showing up in certain dynamics. So it took me like I'm sort of laughing because I used to pick at my skin. It was habitual. Skin picking was the OCD and self harm. But it took me to unpick and unlayer my own shame through my own work and actually also working with clients and. And in this space of sort of trauma healing and EMDR and all of this, I know was the path I was meant to go on as well. Like I'm quite woo. So I know I was meant to do all of that, but it's like smashing a glass on the floor and none of us want that to happen in our lives. But when my it eventually did go and things were everywhere, I had to stop and pick each piece up gently and examine it and work out what was going on. I didn't have an option to kind of just like sweep it under the rug, which I think I've been trying to do before then.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, makes sense. I think it's so incredibly powerful when what people are doing now is work. What they're putting out to help others has come from a point in their life where it was something they were genuinely struggling with and the work they do has come out of their own healing. I find that incredibly powerful and inspiring. You know, when you talk about the word shame, I have to be honest, it's not something I ever thought resonated with me and I didn't realize that it was underpinning a lot of my drive, a lot of my why, a lot of my beliefs. And so for people watching this that are high achievers, they're very driven and ambitious type people. How do they know if they're being driven by shame or not?

[Annalee Howling]

Okay, so shame. Thank you so much for that question. And I think you and I are both possibly still identifying being a bit type A. I certainly was, yeah. And you know, very unapologetic about it, like, you know, want to succeed and, and you know, chasing dreams. Still, shame is a felt sense. So it's really hard to put shame into words. That's why I think a lot of the time we haven't really got the language for shame. So shame is an I am. And I often give the example like mum for daughter. And I could say to you, oh, babe, you know what, I've got time difference here in Dubai with you right now. She's somewhere else in Europe and had a bit of a call last night, but I was exhausted. I didn't do my best. You know what didn't really show up for her in the way that I wanted to. I don't feel great about that. That's guilt. If I say to you I feel like I wasn't the best on the call last night with her, I didn't give her what she needed. I am a bad mother. I feel physically unwell saying that to you. It's in the pit of my stomach and that is a made up example. So shame to me, and the more work I've done around it is actually this thing that I think most people know what they're ashamed of. We are ashamed of our shame. And so it's something that is, generally speaking, it's always just here. I'm not having sex with my partner. I think my marriage is failing. Um, I am failing at my job and I don't want people to know. I've just finished this university degree and my parents supported me and they're so proud of me and I don't want to go into the career that I said I'd chosen. Uh, you know, I think I'm in a abusive or violent relationship, and I. My friends have isolated, and I don't know how to ask for help. Um, I've experienced, again, trigger warning. This. It's in the book. I've experienced some kind of sexual violence or assault. I don't know how to talk about it. I think it was maybe my fault or there was a gray area that is shame. And it's this I am statement. I am helpless. I am hopeless. I am weak. I'm a failure. I'm unlovable. I'm not enough. I'm unworthy that sits within us. And then it's this sort of toxic tar like, substance that then is driving our behaviors. And, of course, I don't want you to see my shame because you'll reject me. I don't want a partner to see my shame. They'll never love me. I fundamentally feel like I'm bad or I'm unworthy in these things. So what I need to do is become perfect. So I'm gonna. People, please. I'm gonna be a chameleon. You're never gonna see a hair out of place, because then you won't be able to see my shame. I'm gonna do such a good job of keeping a handle on it, keeping a lid on it, and, like, the type A, you know, I can do more. I can work harder, I can work longer. I can do more gym classes. I can be a better friend, get more cards. Do thank you cards. And then something usually tends to happen, that shame.

[Podcast Host]

That's so interesting. So let's just rewind for a sec. So you got shame and guilt. Guilt is. I feel bad for this.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah. Usually past and skill. Yeah. Like, I did a thing and I don't feel good about it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So guilt is. I feel bad about this. Shame is I am a bad person. Right. So it's that clinging on to an identity that we've taken on as our own.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

How is that? Is it. Is it different or the same to limiting beliefs or a limiting beliefs? The. The end product of shame.

[Annalee Howling]

Oh, I love that you've asked that. Yes. So it is a limiting belief. So when we do trauma. So I do trauma therapy work, and I do EMDR in particular. People don't know it's eye movement desensitization. Oh, yes. So I think EMDR is magic. So when you go through emdr, we talk through traumatic events and experiences, then you have to hone in on the worst moment. That's how I work with my clients. Sorry, the worst moment. And when we get into the worst moment, you look for the I am in that moment. So say you're in a situation where maybe you're being attacked, and the I am might be, I am unsafe. And then that's the. The limiting belief that lives inside of you. If you believe yourself to be an unsafe person or constantly unsafe and can't trust yourself, that's also quite shameful. Even though something was being done to you and you believe yourself, or I am weak, you know, I am broken. I am a failure. And so that is the underlying limiting belief. Yeah. That lives within us, and then that's what starts to drive other behaviors you may see on the surface.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that definitely makes sense. You know, when I personally love talking about getting to know yourself more so that you can create a life that's more aligned for you. And often a lot of the conversations around productivity and being more organized and things like that. But my true deep belief is that this is step one. It's really working out. What is your relationship with yourself, and what do you fundamentally think about yourself? Because we can look at all the things we do, but if those are band aid fixes to something we're trying to shield, it's got an expiry date, you know, because we can only go on so long trying to sweep things under the rug until we can't. So I guess my question is because, you know, I think about why we have these limiting beliefs, why we have this shame, Maybe that's something we can go into. But I guess if you've developed that from childhood and you've now it's become your identity as an adult, how do you actually know or distinguish between if that's actually you and if it's not? You know, if you're having these I am statements like, how does someone know that that's not them?

[Annalee Howling]

I love how. I really love how you framed it. Thank you. And I think, oh, yeah, I want to do this in two parts. So it's where you feel in conflict with your soul. You know, you've transitioned and changed the way that you work. I talk. I've done that as well. I had a big job in corporate, had a massive burnout, and knew that there had to be a different way. I say I was in. I was not in the role of. Of my soul. And now I am completely. And I think, yeah, when you're working in misalignment, in relationship, in anything, you Feel it and you sense. Yeah, I really think with shame, you do know. And the thing that I think with shame, the thing I know about shame, is that it thrives on you being isolated and thinking you're the only one. So shame can only exist and thrive and be so powerful when it's got control of you, which is saying, don't mention it. Don't that thing. Don't talk about the thing that you know that's so shameful that you are. And then it keeps you that one step removed from connection. So with shame, we're afraid of rejection, but what it's actually doing is diminishing real opportunity and connection from us. So I, I really do think we have quite a good handle on the fact that we feel shameful about something. Do I think we know our limiting belief statement always? No. Do I think we know how much it's got the steering wheel of our life also? No. But I think we can see where it's maybe showing up like you've got an opportunity, perhaps something to present yourself or, I don't know, a new group of friends or a social thing or something you've manifested and wished for. And then it comes and you find yourself sabotaging, self sabotaging. And that could be a little bit of the inner critic, but underneath it is usually a limiting belief and unworthiness of this thing. And so we self sabotage because it's easier to be removed from it than sort of feel this big fall from grace. So that's sort of where I believe that people feel shame. Shame is absolutely taken on in childhood, as you mentioned. Be a good girl. That's a good girl. Like I have an eight, eight and a half year old daughter and I have to stop myself telling her she's a good girl. I, you know, she's done something lovely like she's tidied her room up or she's, she loves making me cards. Like she made me like a little card or something. It's gorgeous. And I literally have to put the words back into my, you know, like back into my mouth because I'm so conditioned to be a good girl.

[Podcast Host]

What's the harm in, in, in calling someone a good girl or being, having been told from a young age.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah, it's, it's not super. I mean, I do do it sometimes, you know, but it's, I don't want her to hold her value on being good, so I want her to have her value on being herself. I always say to Amber, as my daughter, I say to her, you're just so easy to love exactly as you are. You're so easy to love. I don't want her to enter into a relationship in the future and feel that she has to perform tasks to receive love. I think most of us have a unusual, difficult relationship with the idea of unconditional love, whether you believe that to be fully possible or not. But when we have shame within us, we definitely don't think that's possible. And again, what kind of partners are we going to choose from? If we believe that we're shameful and there's something wrong with us and we're broken, we're probably going to accept things that we otherwise would not. And so for her, the reason I try and frame it like that is I don't want her to believe that any kind of love from me is based on conditions or her doing things that we talk about, the being and doing. So to your point, all the band aids of the stuff you do as opposed to who you are, that's why I try and differentiate the two with her.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's really interesting. So for you, what was the moment you realized you were being governed by shame? And I appreciate that unraveling this and unpicking it is not something we could do with just five steps. Right. But is there anything practical that helped you in the moment to just turn your mind or that helped you in that pivoting moment to, okay, that's not mean. I'm now going to deal with this in a different way?

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah, I think there was probably a couple of moments, but I want to be really useful to your audience and like, like you say, put something useful in. I need to say that my book is not a how to, because I, as you know, I had a bit of a fight with some of my publishers. And then I was very unapologetic because I refuse to do anything inauthentic. And if I said, oh, do you know what, babe? You can cure shame. Read my book, click your fingers three times, turn around, clap your hands and do some breathing, and that's it. It's gone. Like, that's not true. The way that shame is released out of your system. If you kind of imagine it's like a kettle, you've got to let the steam out, then we're not going to probably do it all at once. It's just going to be too much. It's finding opportunities to let a little bit out at a time. One of the times that I remember releasing some shame, and again, I want to frame some of these to your audience is I was away with a friend. My marriage was not going well, should we say? And I hadn't said it out loud because that's the thing with shame. And you also know that if you say something, there's an accountability that things kind of have to change. This person's going to check in with me. And so we were away on a weekend away, and she asked me, like, how I was and how things were doing, and I was so good. I'm a coach. I'm a coach. I'm great at asking questions. Yep, I'm great. How are you? Push it back, push it back. Don't answer, don't answer. And I said, I'm not. Okay. It's not good. This has been happening. And she actually got so upset that she didn't know. And I was like, I didn't let you know. Yeah, I didn't let you know. I didn't let you know about hardly any of the things I was doing. And that was the first bit of the steam coming out of my kettle of shame. Another one was being on a retreat. Done a lot of work around female sexual empowerment and my own understanding of that. Asking for, you know, what are my needs? How can I communicate that feeling okay, to take up space as well and not feel like I have to earn it by tidying the house first or whatever it might be, which is, I think, is quite universal for women. Having been on all of these courses. I know it is. That's the kind of good girl thing that. Well, I haven't had the same. I haven't had a wax. I didn't do my hair, the house isn't clean or whatever. Like, how can I possibly just receive whatever this may be right now? And it's being able to. To know that I'm worthy of worship and taking up space. That was a huge piece of work for me as well, and understanding sort of myself in that way. So, yeah, I think there's. There's. There was a few moments there for me as well, when I felt very. Seen that other women said the same thing. And you saying it as well, like there were two universal themes. And I write about that, as, you know, in great detail in the book. But ple. Pleasure and sex in huge detail, including working with the holistic sex coach and having him contribute, which I thought was amazing. And it's. It was just sort of the idea that we do struggle just to say what we might like. It feels so too much, I'm afraid, of being too much to say loud yeah. Could you touch me like that? Not like that. Of course, my body's different to yours or to anyone's, but we don't do it, you know, Or I better make sure you're okay first. Because I'm a good girl and I want to people please. And that's sort of how I've been told to do things or just accept stuff. And, yeah, it was in each of these moments that yet more and more of that shame started to lift for me. And so that's what I've tried to do in the book, is to. To give people those little moments where shame can start lifting. It's my story, as you know, really bare. It's client case studies, really. Imagine you probably saw some of those, like, really honest, incredibly brave clients of mine that have gone in there to liberate other people from the cage that shame puts you in, thinking it's just you, and it's not. And then there's the expert interview as well, to add into that. Fertility, infertility, bariatric surgery, weight our bodies. My divorce lawyer, my own therapist, you know, I wanted to put so many things in there that someone can read it and go, oh, my goodness, that's me. And if that's me, it means I'm not alone. And guess what? Shame's already kind of started with one foot out the door.

[Podcast Host]

That's nice because it's. It's quite accessible, right? Like talking to someone you trust that you can just. Just unapologetically just be yourself and be open. Right? And having. Whether that's your sibling or a friend or just someone you trust, like a therapist, like, it is freeing when you do have those outlets. And then, you know, having a. That community mentality, like, you're not the first person to say that on the show. Like, when you realize you're not alone in something, it does remove a lot of the heaviness of it. Because when you realize that that's its role to, like, put you in a corner and, like, keep you small. It is interesting. If you're not yet taking collagen, you might be missing out on one of the simplest ways to support your hair, skin, and joints. I recently learned that by the time you hit your 20s, your body starts producing less collagen every single year. That's why experts swear by supplementing it. So a few months ago, I started using one I actually trust. The product is called Collagen Beauty by Nutra Organics. And honestly, I have noticed a very big difference in my skin and ha. Health already. And I'm not alone. A recent consumer trial of the Collagen beauty product saw nine out of 10 women see significant improvements to their skin in just eight weeks. What I love most about it is that it's made from whole food ingredients, including a premium blend of collagen peptides, whole food, zinc, silica, and actually 100% of your daily recommended vitamin C intake. It's so easy to add into my morning routine. I just pop a scoop either in my overnight oats or my smoothie and I'm good to go. Lately, I've been obsessed with the vanilla flavor in my overnight oats, but they also have an unflavored option if you're going for something a bit more neutral. So if you're looking for a way to support your overall skin health, hydration, elasticity, and overall glow, this is it. And a little bonus for my mamas, or mamas, to be like me. Collagen Beauty is pregnancy, breastfeeding, and postpartum friendly. The team have kindly given us a code for 15% off. So head to nutraorganics.com or you can hit the link in the show notes and use the code, the balance Theory, at checkout. And by the way, they do ship internationally, so no matter where you're listening from, you'll be able to use the code and try the products for yourself. Let's get back into today's episode. You know, I've just. I'm just, like, thinking as you're speaking, like, I've done a lot of work on myself and I'm very proactive and constantly introspective and just thinking about different things in my life. But. And now I would say, like, I'm in an unconditional marriage. Like, I know that I am worthy to him and of his love just by being right, but I still have conditioning my head of that whole, clean the house, make sure he's got food. Like, there's a part of me that I'm like, this is out of love. And because I'm. I feel like I'm quite a generous person. I love doing things for people. But, like, where's the fine line between. And not saying necessarily for my husband, but even for other people. Right. Like, I really do extend myself. I give a lot of myself to other people. And it's not because I expect it back. It's just kind of the way I am. But at what point do I need to be mindful to draw the line?

[Annalee Howling]

That's a really beautiful question. So, I mean, I would say I'M very nurturing as well, like a cancerian. So, you know, I do like kind of making nice and doing things and my love language would be little gifts and being very thoughtful and things like that.

[Podcast Host]

Like acts of service.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah, totally. So I think there's. Lean into what's natural for you and what you enjoy. I mean, a good, A good, very overview test is do you feel like this is something you should be doing versus something you. You want to be doing? You know, you saw something at the shop for him, you knew he'd love it, so you got it for him and. Or you knew he was having a hectic day, so you went and got the dry cleaning or whatever. Because it's just. And you didn't mind, that is if you feel obligated and that includes with friendships and things like that, you'll think.

[Podcast Host]

It'S more in that realm.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Than my marriage.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah. So, yeah. Obligation would be checking in. You know, sometimes we do do things, which is family, that we're like, okay, gotta shut that thing. You know, but if you're feeling. If you're feeling really leaned upon and it's a should, and the should is usually always for other. So, yeah, have a chat. I would encourage anyone if you're feeling overwhelmed by shoulds, that is usually you're in a critic, which is sort of the custodian of your comfort zone, jumping up and down in your head going, oh, you should do this, you should do that. You should get more like this. You should do that. And again, I think a bit to your point, it's. It's chatter and it's kind of keeping you away from really what's maybe going on underneath, which is perhaps this connection, say friendships, perhaps this connection that she isn't really serving me anymore, perhaps no one's fault, but I'm just in a different life stage right now. You know, reason, season, lifetime, maybe we're. We're transitioning into something else. For the time being, different things are happening. But yeah, that's a good way to check in is, am I doing this? Because even it's become a pattern of behavior in our dynamic. Are you always the hostess, you know, those sorts of things and is that what you need right now?

[Podcast Host]

So what does it take for us to break free from those expectations? Because I think it's one thing for us to kind of have that inner barometer and be like, should I be doing this or do I want to be doing this? But then when other people expect it of you, I feel like that's Kind of like a two step thing you need to break.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So how do you, in line with your book, like unapologetically be who you are if you've kind of been showing up as someone who's been like shackled by shame, let's say.

[Annalee Howling]

I love, I love that question. Because we do have to take responsibility for ourselves. And so if I effectively sort of teach you or educate you what I will or won't do or expect, we just, we get used to it. We're adaptable, we're humans, we're like hyper adaptable. So if I always come to your house and I seem to like that better and I always volunteer to do that, you're going to be like, do you want to come and see, see me? Rather than offering the way around, just as a very sort of flippant example. So I think it's, it's. If you've had a change and you know you've transitioned through something, it's a really sad fact of life. I'm sure it's probably happened with you. Not everyone that you think is going to be in your team or in your corner is going to be around to cheer for you because potentially the old version of you served them better. It's the worst pain, I think is when you've been in a bit of a dark place and in my case, a very dark place, like everything seems to be crashing, you know, the dark night, the soul is all at once and people seem to benefit from my brokenness. And you come out the other side and you have like some great news. I've got a book deal, lost a friend. You know, I've met, I've met the love of my life. Didn't hear from someone else. You're like, surely you'd be happy for me because these things are nice and I wanted to share them with you. And not everyone will be and that's a really tough thing to find out as well. But again, having that, that unapologetic sense of yourself that, well, I've been through all of this, I know who I am. I'm able to be sort of free of my shame and sharp as I want to. I have to know that the people aligned with me are also going to enter my life. And sometimes like anything, we've got to create some space for that. So it's always like a. Hopefully I'm allowed to swear. It's a bit of like a namaste the away from me. So it's like no hard feelings. But also we're it's fine to close it off.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's actually very interesting. I'm just, like, looping that in my head that an old version of yourself could serve someone better than a new version of yourself, and that's why they don't move with you. That's actually really hard to navigate. Like, I've been through it myself, and, like, friendship breakups are very difficult. Arguably harder than heartbreak, because it's not always this explosive ending and someone's done something and you're like, well, I don't want to spend the rest of my life with you. Like, it doesn't feel that dramatic, but it's like. Like, you're a really important person that's been in my life for a long time. And, like, if nothing's happened other than we've just grown as people and we're no longer compatible, like, it's a really hard one to deal with. Like, how have you had to kind of approach that? And do you, like, proactively have a conversation about it, or do you just let it run its course?

[Annalee Howling]

I'm really pleased we're talking about this because that's the thing that I get asked the most about on social media, and not just by women either. I want to say that. So I have a lot of men say things like, I've just started a business, and I see my friends watch every one of my stories, will never publicly, like, a post or support me, but yet they support people in the same field. So I know they're active, I know they're online, but they'll never sort of put their name to it. Almost like, well done, you. And I've had. I'm sure you have. You're nodding as well. I've had it happen to me. And at the beginning, when you're first starting out something and you've got, like, three followers and an idea, you know, and it really hurts because you think. Think, wow, I. I've gone to this for your business and got a ticket for this and done all these things and, you know, really trying to cheer you on. I'm quite a cheerleader. And you. You. I can see that you're doing this stuff, but you don't want me to win. And I put a post out there that was like, are they supporting you, or is it surveillance? And sadly, a lot of the time, people are just keeping tabs. They're not actually ready to see you win. Now, that can be a number of reasons. There can genuinely be something going on in that person's life. They're not able or, or ready to tell you about, you know, maybe a family illness or something that they're not able to share with you. So that can be a reason, but the other reason can be they're not willing to cheer for you. And that is very different. And I'm 43 now, and like, the things that I've learned is if there is someone sat around your table that will not cheer for you now, they're not going to cheer for you later, and I don't want them there. Like, it's just. That is kind of my unapologetic sense of self if you can't be happy for me and, and at the same time, we can hold space, whatever's going on for you, but I would, I was always happy for my friends and people in my life, and I would always, you know, create and make space and nurture whatever way I could. The most difficult time of mine. So that to me now is you're not going to be kind of helping this. This along, then we're probably just not aligned.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You know, one thing I find difficult about this is I personally, my personal view is that in all circumstances, no matter what the reason is, it's always a them thing.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah. Right.

[Podcast Host]

Because if you're fully, wholeheartedly accepting who you are, then it's very easy to just be. Be there for other people in a very consistent way. So for me, when this kind of stuff happens, and I noticed this, whether it be because it was something going on in their life or whether they're just surveilling, whatever the case is, I've. I find I struggle with this question to myself of. I kind of want to have a conversation about it because I don't like things just fizzling out, especially if there's someone that's been in my life for a long time. But then I'm also like. I feel like a conversation would go nowhere because, like, I don't know how to phrase this, but it kind of just feels like a conversation would be futile because it's maybe just something they're going through and I don't even know if they're aware of it.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Do you know what I mean? Like, how do I tell someone, hey, you haven't been showing up for me if they know they haven't been showing up for me and it obviously doesn't bother them.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah, well, yeah, there's, there's. So there's. I also do think there is quite a lot of COVID narcissism and victimhood. Narcissism that can play out, particularly in female friendships.

[Podcast Host]

What does that look like?

[Annalee Howling]

So, for example, passive aggressive. Easy for you. Oh, it's so hard for me. You know, I could. Well, you've got this and I haven't got that and. But underneath it, you can always tell that it's narcissism because there's still this sense of entitlement. So they believe that they should be having what you have without doing any of the work. So, you know, I've had some experiences of it where someone expects or wants what I have. So I've got a big social media platform, right. And which I can. Which is not a sexy answer for anyone wants to know. It wasn't a magical hashtag that I pulled forth from my vagina one day and I got all the followers. That is not how it worked. Like, like, spoiler alert. It was just like, if you want to get, you know, gym ready, it's eating lean, it's training every day and looking after yourself. Same thing. It was consistency. And the ones that went viral and we got big leaps like snakes and ladders. You couldn't have predicted it. The ones that I think are my best work, maybe like flailed. It was just showing up every day. So people, you know, oh, well, how'd you do this now? How'd you not give anyone my time? So she friends, of course. Well, let me help you. Let's sort of look at some ideas. Let's do this and do that and don't do any of the work. Want everything that you give, I. E. Connections, things like that. Your friends, they'll take your friends and people you're introducing them to, you never get it back the other way. So that's another tell. But then, like I say, underneath it is this sense of entitlement that, well, why have you got that? Why have you got this great husband and everything else that's going on for you and all these brilliant things and I haven't. But you're not doing the things or putting yourself out there in that way or trying to get, you know, you're not working the hours that I work. You're not putting in the time that I'm putting in. You're not doing any of these things. And there's just this real sense of victimhood. And then if you get close to calling them out, like, I really don't think you've been showing up for me, they'll never be able to take accountability, responsibility. That's the other kicker. So it's because of them, this other thing happened or, or I'm ill, mentally, physically, some other kind of illness which trumps everything. So you can't possibly have a conversation. They will never have the conversation with you. So bit to your point, there are some people that you simply will never be able to have the conversation. Like, I've had someone that was very, very sort of toxic. It turns out I hadn't appreciated quite how bad I'd worked out. It wasn't good. So it's just sort of gently putting in some distance. But, you know, I thought, okay, we can still be in. In a group setting and that sort of thing. And then it was just this very toxic situation. And yeah, I was like, right, okay. I actually, I actually don't even want to engage here because I'm. I don't even know where you're going to go with this. But it was. And I wouldn't have been able to because it was just complete victimhood as well at that point. So, yeah, a test, a bit of a test, sadly, is will they take any responsibility or accountability for any of their part in it, or is it like, well, you did this, or that happened because my car broke down, or, you know, is it so much better for you and they want everything that you've got, taker rather than a giver. And then underneath all of it, is there an underlying sense of entitlement, that they should have it, but without doing the work? That's. That's a bit of a covert narcissism giveaway.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting. That's obviously like an extreme kind of level. I mean, I'm not saying I, I've experienced that too. I'm kind of just thinking back to what we're talking about before, where one of the things that is accessible for people is to speak out loud to your. Your friends, your closest, this confidence. And I mean, sometimes you have these characters that are in your family, which makes it even worse. It's very difficult to navigate. How do you know that the person you're sharing this with is a safe space? Now, I just want to frame that in the context of, like, I have a best friend and I've got my sister, and I tell them between the two of them, they know everything. And my husband, he's probably number one. But I'm talking more in terms of outside counseling, my sisters, you know, that kind of thing. Because, like, you're growing and changing, right? And people's reactions that can, can change very quickly depending on how that makes them feel, how it reflects back at them. Whatever's going on in their life. How do you know if that person is like a safe space for you? Because there's a lot of people who I think struggle with having that. What's the word? Having that knowing or that safety or that connection with people even. Especially if it's like new relationships. Right?

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah. Well, I would say if you feel like you don't have anyone to talk to, want to offer this, there are. And actually one of the people in the book that shared her story suggested that you can go on to chat rooms and even be anonymous if you want, just to start. So let's just say there's something that you do wish to share that's shame related or you need to talk about. You perhaps don't feel that your friendships or family members around you or they've got stuff going on. That's the other thing. Oh, I can't possibly trouble them. Them.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, you don't want to put weight on them.

[Annalee Howling]

So the thing you can start doing, number one is to say out loud to yourself, you can just literally sit and say the thing out loud to yourself that this thing, whatever it may be that's happened or that you're dealing with, that you're feeling about yourself and just get that acknowledgment out. It's not here. The second thing I used to go on Mum's net, I don't know if you have that like here in Australia. It was like it's yeah, this massive chat room forum. I didn't have a profile on it but I would just scan forums looking for anything and anyone that sounded remotely like me. What I understand now I was doing was I was trying to find places that my shame would, you know, feel more normalized. I was trying to find an example of someone that left their marriage and found happiness after. I was trying to find an example of someone that did self harm. I was trying to find an example of someone that had only one child and she grew up okay. You know, I was trying to find anything to kind of give me a bit of, I suppose, reassurance for the road map that I was taking it on. And then like I say at that point I cracked open a bit to a friend, but it wasn't everything. And I, I would say to somebody here, please don't feel that you have to just go with everything all at once. And maybe if you're slightly unsure of a friendship that could be a telling thing but perhaps just start with something that you're, you know, let's just see how that's Received. Yeah, Just start with something that you're happy to share a bit. Like when someone asks you how you are, say one of the things you're really feeling. Actually, I'm feeling a bit unsure of myself at the moment. I'm not really sure why. And just start there, that's all you need to say. And you'll see if somebody can step in or they. They just can't. That might not be anything they're doing wrong. They might just not have the skills. And if not, obviously I need to sort of nuance this. If you feel that you need to have a professional, because friendships are brilliant, but sometimes there needs to be some professional support around it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. 100. I think when you have that community, like I feel very, very grateful to have a few, like not too many. Probably wouldn't count them more than one hand women in my life that I know I can call and just be open with where I'm at and the really beautiful thing that's happened. And I guess this doesn't happen with everyone and it does take time. Like these are friendships I've had for a long time. We've been through a lot together. They do the same back to you. You know, you end up holding space for them and it becomes this nice safety net where you can both just be yourselves unapologetically. So I think when you find that if you have those people in your life, like it's. It's really magical, you know. Another thing I've been thinking about, especially for high achievers, a type people, one thing I struggled with growing up, I'd be curious to hear if you did too, was being on my own, right. Just enjoying my own company. And I think it was because I had this. I mean, I'm definitely a bit more of an extroverted, convers, conversationalist, social kind of person. When I moved to Dubai, my life basically hit reset on all fronts. Work where I was training, where I lived, where was my local cafe, friendships, like all of it, hit reset. So I had this opportunity, as I like to think of it now, to actually enjoy my own time. And I kind of found myself and now it's like this really nice combination of, yes, I like being social, but I almost need that time for myself, so. So one thing that I used to struggle with was, well, what's the difference of being lonely and being on my own? And I know this is something you talk about as well, but I think it's interesting to talk about, especially for the audience who may be sitting on that on that curve of, you know, I need to catch up with this person all the time. Like I used to fill out my calendar so I have a hundred coffees in that week and people I just see once a year, but like I have to see them. And then like that rush before Christmas and it's like this. I've always got to be doing, doing, doing. And maybe I just didn't want to be on my own at the time too. So what's the difference between spending time alone and being lonely?

[Annalee Howling]

Oh, I love that question. Thank you. And such a. Like I'm really like resonating hard with everything you were saying there as well. So I just want to nuance this. Like I had quite extreme childhood trauma. So my father was very violent and my mother colluded, which meant that my. I didn't have a safe person at home to this person's bad and violent and a threat and this other person's saying that they're right and I'm wrong. So for me, I was very isolated in my home environment and always on like hyper alert. And so what that informed me of was that relaxation wasn't safe. It wasn't safe for me to kind of switch off and, I don't know, play Barbies. It was like you had to kind of be working out what was going on at the time and if this was going to escalate or what might happen or. And as a child as well, I didn't understand what I'd done that was so terribly wrong inherently. Hi, shame. I must be bad. My shame statement was I am bad because these two people put on this earth to love me and they hate me. I must be so awful. So I must be bad. I must be. The things they're saying I am. So for me, I understood through my therapist that. Which is where the self harm came from with me as well. This is all linked to being alone. So I used to self harm the most actively when I was relaxing, when I was supposed to relax. When I. Before I'd done sort of really deep kind of work for myself. Now I'd done loads of stuff at that point I was already doing coaching. I was embarking on understanding the trauma work. But I realized the times that I would do this the most when I was driving alone and when I was in the shower twice a day, you know, the end of the day and. And if I was then at home alone in the evening, that's when I would start to just find myself doing it. It was very subconscious behavior. I wasn't Consciously thinking, I'll do it. I'd sort of come round, there'd be blood on my hands. And then when I started doing this work and. And I'm picking up my therapist and funny other things, it was linked to me being so uncomfortable alone, this feeling that I had to fill it. So like you. And it was kind of mine. All linked in with lockdown as well. So before lockdown, all the coffees, I was laughing at all the coffees, all the people, all the things. It was never a break then with my daughter, this play date, onto this thing, onto this thing. Got to keep them entertained, got to do this. Could never have a moment just, just together or alone, you know, never have a moment relaxing. There's always something to do as well. There's always a wash to put on. And then society as a type A rewards the busyness. Oh, isn't she doing brilliantly? She's doing all the hours at her job and then she's going to the gym and then she's doing all these.

[Podcast Host]

Trips and it's a badge of honor for doing it all and having everything done. We. We look at ourselves that way too.

[Annalee Howling]

Yeah, completely. Because you think, well, isn't this brilliant? I'm doing. I've got all these activities. I'm getting up, you know, this whole bloody. I'm so glad. It's kind of, I think, coming to bit of an end. Like get up at ridiculous times, make a ceremonial matcha, then journal, then get your perfect thing out. Like. No, no, like just. It's fine. Just doing whatever you need to do to get yourself going. Like it's fine, you know, this, this sort of pressure to be. To even doing that your morning routine. So the. I don't think many people are lonely in the sense of. Because we're so interconnected, like little device that lives with us, you know, we're interconnected all the time. Now. We tend to be around people, whether you work from home, whatever your job is, family. It's. It's rare that we don't get any interaction relationships. As Esther says, apparel says, it's the quality of our life. However, the happy alone thing is the piece that I certainly resisted for a really long time. And I now understand, understand it's because I didn't want to face the feelings of. That I was trying to pull out. There was a stress in my system and the OCD of the self harming was me trying to discharge that. But without me consciously understanding what it was that I was trying to pull forth from my system. And the mask I was trying to claw off this perfection I was trying to wear. Now when I understood that, and then my therapist helped me understand that it was also because I didn't know how to relax. I literally didn't know how to relax, like, because that had never been safe for me growing up. When I managed to put those couple of pieces together, what I did was we had like two lockdowns in the uk and so on the second one I basically went sort of cold turkey. There was like no guys on my phone, wasn't even like chatting to someone, nothing. I was raw dogging it, basically. I raw dogged it. I was like, right, I'm not gonna get external validation. I'm not going to use any of the band aids that I might have done otherwise. I'm going to really focus and hone in on being with my feelings, whatever they might be. I'm going to do the things that I can do that within my control that are free. I'm going to listen to a YouTube meditation, I'm going to read some books, I'm going to look after my body, go to bed at a good time, move it in a way that suits me, look at the food I'm putting in my mouth, you know, those sorts of things. And spend time understanding myself and spend time bonding with my kid as well in this way rather than just filling it with people and activities. And when I came out the other side of that, not only do I now crave my own company, you mentioned it as well. Like, I love getting back to my house and being like, God, my, oh, oh. You know, like a night in, just for me relax and able to just sort of be in that place and be fully present. But it also just showed me it created a new benchmark for myself in a way that I understood myself in such a different way and showed up for myself. And I really like myself. Like I love myself, I love my own company. In, in that sense. I mean, I got to find who I was. I got to heal that part of me that was hurting a lot. And we're really happy together now. Like that's what I mean by loving myself. Like me and me and me, we're really happy together. And so that's the difference to me with being happy, alone with yourself and not fearing what may come out of like Pandora's box if you have that quiet time versus sort of filling it with these back to back relentless pursuits that you might be getting praised for, but at what cost?

[Podcast Host]

I'm very happy for you.

[Annalee Howling]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Because it's a nice place to be. And when you find that for me, kind of feels like I respect my own time in a different way. I respect it by putting me first. I know something else you talk about a lot is kind of boundaries and saying no, which I think goes a lot. Hand in hand with this, for me, it was, yes, a case of I was driving it and wanting to be busy and filling out my schedule. And that made me feel good because it was this superficial doing checking. I've achieved so much today, but now it looks so different for me. And I'm really glad that I've been able to get to this place before Baby's here. Because I'm able to just be. I don't have to. I mean, I still struggle with it. I'm not. It's. It's a work in progress, and it's something I have to remind myself of constantly. But I feel like I don't linger in that I have to do all the time. I might have a day of that, and I'm like, whoa. That was the doing side of me. Like, I need to just chill a bit. But, yeah, I find, like, the whole setting boundaries thing was something that helped me too, because it wasn't just me driving it. It was also me not knowing how to say no. And I find for people wanting to make this leap from, okay, I can acknowledge I'm in that busyness, in that distractedness, and maybe it's something I like. Maybe it's something I feel like I need to do, but I would like to get to that point where I can just say no and stay at home and do nothing or read a book or just like. Like, hang out with another friend if that's what I actually want to do instead of hanging out with this friend. How does one get comfortable? What's your take on kind of learning to set boundaries and say no?

[Annalee Howling]

So I would say that your good friends will absolutely accept and support it, but you have to ask for it. So when I was writing the book, for example, single mumming, writing a book, doing my day job, like, you know, all of these things, managing everything, I did not have the capacity to see a lot of people. Like, I really barely did a lot of the socializing. I had to kind of go all in. That's. And that's what I chose to do for the book for me and my girl, right? And that meant that I didn't have as much capacity or availability. So I told my friends that I'm like, guys, listen you know, each individual person, people really close to me kind of try not to be apologetic about it, but like, look, this is what I'm doing. I'm going to make some quality time. So I really want to see and I really want to spend time with you. Let's look at a trip we can do together. Let's look at something where I'm not going to be constantly distracted. Let's make sure we've got some things across the diary, but I can't do the sort of other bits and pieces that we were. I might not even be as available to kind of check in as much, but I'm still here. And in. Everyone that was, is my friend was like, you go, babe, ask me, what do you need? I'll do it. You know, what do you need? I'm there for you. You go, I'm so proud of you. I get some of my friends on, you know what, the girls group chats. When I'm doing something like this, they'll send a picture of it and be like, so proud of you, you know, so that is like an amazing place to get to. But if I tried to kind of keep up, say, doing things that I think they want of me, that I think is an expectation they've got, I'm probably going to get that wrong, burn myself out and that's not what anybody wants at all. They want me to do well and they want me to be okay, you know, so. And my responsibility in that is to educate people with what I need and what I'm capable of giving right now. And people that are, you know, again, good friends or like supportive people are going to be totally fine with that, you know, I've got this much right now that I can give you. Cool, let's do this and this, you know. So I would say to, to people listening, firstly, check in on what you have. I think we do have this thing as, as women where we Good girling. I, I do a lot of executive coaching. So with companies quite often when I work with very senior women in roles, they, they, it looks like maybe they're not managing time well. And it's not that because we're amazing time managers, by the way. But the thing I think sometimes where it can fall down is the saying yes to everything. You don't want to say no and then ultimately you're like, like haven't got capacity with everything. So it' I would say a responsibility and a kindness to let people know what you can do. And it's absolutely fine what you can't and just, just. It's educate people also. I'd say people in your life, if they've got used to having a certain version of you, give them a couple of goes, like, you know, especially, let's just go for family members, right? So, you know, some people are used to having a certain access to you and you communicate a boundary and they maybe don't get it straight away. Some people are pushing, and they're going to keep pushing their luck a little bit, but they will get there a bit. Like we train, training an animal. They'll get there if you. If you're kind of resolute with it. And some people just maybe need a bit of kindness, you know, just, okay, no, this is what we're doing now. Let's say you're changing your diet. I don't eat that anymore. And this is what I could do instead. Or something like that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. You know what's interesting about all this is when you're in that I have to please everyone and I have to say yes to everything because I want to try and make it all work and I want everything to be perfect. The way you show up is such a superficial, empty version of yourself. Like, I remember, I'd say it's probably 10 years ago when I was at law school, I was. I studied to be a PT at my gym because I worked out. It was cheaper to work there than pay the membership. I had a very active social life. My parents are divorced, so I wanted to make them both feel like I wasn't choosing one over the other. So I'd split my time and carry my suitcase every week to make sure they both felt loved. And it was just a lot. And I was doing everything in my head that I thought was right. But when I was spending time with people, I felt like a flake of myself. Like, I was like, oh, I'm just here, but I'm just like a blob here, like. And I was exhausted all the time. And so when I really reflect on it, you know, what's the trade off? You're saying yes to someone else, and you don't have to go through that discomfort of saying no. But the quality is not there. And maybe this has just been an age and an experience thing for me, but now I'd much rather say no to someone than show up as like a half version of myself. And on top of that, me moving overseas, you know, we. Me and my husband were both Italian. We've got big families. We're very close to them. It's it was a hard adjustment not seeing them on a weekly basis, but in saying that we would see them after working nine hours a day, we'd rock up. Some people would be tired. My husband would still be doing work on the computer at the dinner table. Like, it wasn't always quality. Whereas now we might go back for one or two weeks, but we're there. We've taken the time off. We're there to spend time with people. It's the best version everyone's got.

[Annalee Howling]

We.

[Podcast Host]

It's like, more intentional, right? It's not like this, oh, default, I see you on a Thursday night type thing.

[Annalee Howling]

It's. I love that you said everything you've just said. And my heart was like, bless you for taking your suitcase. And like, you know, all the things you were trying to do. And again, you were trying to, like, be really good. You know, like, it saves money. I'm not gonna lose money for my parents. I do the PT as well. Or I can make law school work, and then I can make them both feel loved and like, it's incredible what you were doing and no doubt being a good friend and everything else. And I love how you frame this. I went to go and see Gabor Marte speak when my daughter was really little, and a lady in the audience at the front asked a question that everyone, I think, wanted answered and was like, look, I've got. She said, I've got a really young child. Like, what. What can I do? What's the best thing I can do for them? See specialists in attachment as well and trauma. And he was like, you need to give them your own joy. Like, all your children want is your own joy. And he said, because think about it, you know, if you're giving to everyone else and that, what version of you do they get? And leftovers, right? And he said, they don't deserve that. What they want is if you need to go and get a massage or you need to do a yoga class or something like that, because it makes you feel so fulfilled and joyful. And then they get you maybe for an hour less, but they get you 100% more. You are giving them your joy. And I'd say the same things for friendships. Like, it's this really weird paradox we get tied into where we desperately want to say yes to things because we love these people. Friends, family, you know, we want to do the things that they've asked us to do. But if we're showing up, like you say, as a flake of yourself, they're getting that version of you. So it is actually much better for everybody that you, you say yes to what you can give and you've got to pour. You know, it's the whole pour into your own cup first. But we, we have this idea that we're being selfish by prioritizing our own needs. When you're a mother, you can get a bit of like. I don't know whether I've actually been shamed for it. I have actually, by men. I've had a bit of shaming. Like, you know, you're a mother of a daughter. Like, I know we're all good pal. And she's gonna be very unapologetic, like big, you know. So it's. It's this idea that by me putting my needs first, I'm selfish. Whereas actually being selfish is putting your needs ahead of somebody else's to the detriment of them, to cause them harm. That's not what this is. By me going to a yoga class and she stays in our school club for one hour that she enjoys. She gets the most joyful version of me. It's just me making up an example. Then that is self care. And we all benefit. You get to look after the people you know love better when you nurture yourself first.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. 100. And I think, I mean, at least the way I used to look at it, learning how to say no and set boundaries is not learning how to say them like. Or like, yes, that's a part like how do I communicate it? But the number one step is actually what. What are priorities for you and what's important for you. And these kind of mindset shifts in terms of what it actually means. Are you saying yes and then showing up as a half version of yourself, or are you changing the way you think about being selfish? You know, that's actually the first part because that's a foundation. Because when you have that strong. And this is kind of what I felt when I've been clear in how I want to spend my time and I've been clear on what is a priority for me. It's so easy to communicate that to other people because it's just obvious to me. Whereas if I'm like, well, I have to say yes to everyone because that's what I'm supposed to do and that's the good girl in me. How am I going to communicate anything else if that's my foundation on what it's built? So I think for anyone that is struggling with this or, or you know, finds themselves being pulled in, in different directions sometimes to what they genuinely want or they feel it's selfish. I think working on that foundation is step one, because then the communication piece is just communicating what your foundation is, you know?

[Annalee Howling]

Exactly. Yeah, I love that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, I've had a really beautiful time learning from you today, learning how I can be a bit more unapologetic and, you know, maybe just pointing out some things that, that areas for me to work on. I always say this self development path for me. I didn't start this podcast to fix myself and then just share that with everyone. For me, this is a journey. And so I really love when I have people on that inspire me because I know for a fact they've inspired the audience to go deeper on themselves. Because I think everyone deserves to live their most genuine, authentic life. And it's only through conversations and being introspective and asking yourself these questions that I think you get there. So for anyone that this conversation has really resonated with with, I strongly recommend reading Annalee's book Unapologetic. It's available on Amazon worldwide and you can get that now. I'm going to put links in the show notes, so I'll put one for the Middle East, I'll put one for Australia and the uk and then, you know, wherever else you are, you'll find it on your Amazon store. But I do want to thank you so much for having the courage to compile your experiences not only into the work you do, but through conversations like this, through social media, through your book. Because I'm very inspired and I really loved your energy in connecting with you today.

[Annalee Howling]

Oh, thank you so much. This has been pure joy.

[Podcast Host]

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[Annalee Howling]

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[Podcast Host]

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