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The Beauty Brains
Episode 374 - The Truth About Quats - Friend or Foe & more beauty questions
00:52:24
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetics industry. This is episode 374. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.
- [00:27]
B
Hello, Valerie.
- [00:28]
A
On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions including what can botan oil do for hair? Is there a benefit to looking for quat free products? Can you use a clarifying shampoo more than once a week? Is there a difference between men's and women's products that treat thinning hair? Plus career advice? But first, inane chit chat.
- [00:48]
B
Hi. Yes, Valerie, it's been a little while. Valerie, you're in Texas and you were in California before then?
- [00:55]
A
Yep.
- [00:56]
B
I wonder, did you get inundated with these cicadas?
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A
I don't think in California we did, but in Texas we have them. And they're a little bit quieter now, but they were really present all summer. Very loud. But now we, we don't really hear them anymore. We did see one hatch live on our porch.
- [01:17]
B
Wow.
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A
And then it died. And then Reggie the rat tried to take him.
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B
Oh, well, you know, it's funny, the Portuguese love to chase after the cicadas. They're like little toys and they catch them and I guess they eat them or something like that.
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A
Oh, my gosh. Well, they're very big.
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B
So what happened was I started getting these red welts on my body, like these gigantic red welts. And I thought it was weird. And then I read an article that said with the cicadas came this, this mite that lives on the cicadas and these parasitic mites or something. I mean, they're not human parasitic, but they do bite. And so when they bite you, you get these gigantic red welts. And so I've got a few of these gigantic red welts all over my body because, I don't know, I haven't been. It's not like I've been interacting with the cicadas. They're just out in the environment now, but.
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A
Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. But speaking of porch kitties, let's talk about some lab kitty news.
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B
Oh, yeah, what's up about the lab kitties?
- [02:19]
A
Okay, so basically we have hardly seen any kitties all summer. And it makes sense because during the day it's like over 100 million degrees. The cats do not want to be outside. Well, it's cooled off Even though tomorrow it's also going to be 100 degrees, but it's cooled off a little bit. And so we've seen a few cats around. And I noticed Pretty Kitty a few days ago laying on the other side of the fence. And she looked very thin and gaunt. And I said, oh, goodness, I better get her some wet cat food. So I removed this barrier that prevented them from entering the driveway of our lab and made it easier for her. And she started eating this food, wet food. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. She let me within a few feet of her, which is the closest I've ever been to her. Well, I was sitting on the driveway with her, and all of a sudden pops out from around the corner, a kitten face.
- [03:15]
B
Oh, no, a kitten.
- [03:16]
A
And it turns out there's four. Four kittens. Uh oh, and one of them looks just like Stash. Mind you, Pretty Kitty is Stash's sister, so it makes sense that he may have a nephew that looks like him. And they are the cutest. Mr. Cosmetic Chemist named the initial Cat, who's very, like, curious about me. He named him Patch because he has just one little orange patch on his neck. And then the rest of him is totally different. And the other kittens are really shy, but Patch is really bold.
- [03:50]
B
Well, are you gonna any plans to, like, catch them and get em placed or. I guess they're just outdoor cats, huh?
- [03:57]
A
Well, we do plan to abduct Patch. Oh, and Pretty Kitty, you know, is in mommy mode, so she's like hissing at me and stuff, which she's never done. And I'm like, you best watch yourself because I have a can of of food in front of me. Wet food, not garbage. Generic food. I bought Friskies off Amazon. No, Fancy Feast. Not Friskies. Fancy Feast off Amazon. And it's not the pate that your cats hate. I went and got the little. What are they called? Tidbits or. It's like the actual pieces.
- [04:30]
B
Yeah, the gravy and tidbits. Yeah.
- [04:32]
A
Oh, she loves it. She also loves this, like, tuna paste on top of the food. She goes crazy for that. But anyway, she was like, hissing at me, and I was like, you have two seconds to back off, pretty kitty. And Mr. Cosmetic Chemist was like, she's really not going to like you when you steal one of her kittens.
- [04:50]
B
You know, they have short memories.
- [04:52]
A
Oh, that's good. Well, let's head over to some beauty news. You saw a pretty disgusting article.
- [05:05]
B
Well, it's always interesting to me the kinds of things that get turned into cosmetics. I remember when I first started in industry, it was kind of. Kind of a joke, but then it turned into a real thing. Snail muslin, like people would put. I remember seeing an episode of Penn and Teller's show Bullshit.
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A
Mm.
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B
And they took snails and they said, oh, this is a spa treatment. And they put them on people's face and the snails walked around and they're. People would be done. They're like, oh, this feels wonderful. And they're all like, that was all just fake. We're just so. I never had much faith in what snail slime could do. I thought it was just like a marketing thing. But it has stuck around, so it must. It certainly has a humectant effect.
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A
And who knew? It was thanks to Penn and Teller, right? They started the K beauty phenomenon of snail mucin and products accidentally.
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B
Well, so the beauty industry is known for taking stuff from nature, you know, bee honey. We're taking snail slime. Well, here's a story about fish guts. How do you feel about putting fish guts on your face?
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A
It's not for me. I don't care what the research says. It's a hard pass.
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B
This was published in Science Daily, and researchers have discovered that molecules produced by gut bacteria of certain fish, like the red and blackhead sea bream, they have potential skin care benefits. These compounds tested on lab grown mouse cells, showed promising anti wrinkling and skin brightening effects by inhibiting enzymes linked to aging and hyperpigmentation. These findings suggest that fish gut bacteria could be the future source of innovative cosmetic ingredients. And the study was supported by several Korean research and education programs. So look for the next wave in K Beauty, I guess.
- [07:02]
A
Part of me wonders how they got this idea to take the fish guts and link it to skin. Like, really where someone said, you know what? This is worth funding, right?
- [07:16]
B
University types got funding for this. But I can imagine maybe you're in the fish industry and you've got all this leftover waste that you have to now pay to get disposed of. Then they're thinking, hmm, what if there's something in here? We could sell this stuff.
- [07:33]
A
Well, they probably turn it into like dog treats, cat treats. Currently that's a low profit market. Although we paid a lot of money for some beef tracheas the other day for Butch and Frank, one gullet to another. But nonetheless, skin care is a lot more profitable. So I bet you they're like, how do we drive up the value of these fish guts? You know, I once spoke at a leadership conference in Florida and one of the people at the conference said, hey, you know, I work for Tyson Chicken, and you would not believe how many chicken feathers we have that we don't know have much to do with. Right. There's not much you can do with the magnitude of chicken feathers that they have. And she said, do you think the skincare market or the beauty industry has interest in them? And I said, well, funny enough, you say that out of Brazil there's a material that comes from chicken feathers and it's actually used to help straighten hair. And so I created a connection there. But, you know, you're right, it probably has something to do with this waste stream. And someone says, what are the cool things that we could do? Aha. There's growth factors, enzymes, etc. In the fish guts. Let me put some on my skin. Oh my gosh, my skin looks amazing. Amazing. Let's fund this research.
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B
I imagine when they're marketing this though, they probably get a new name. Other than fish guts.
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A
What would you come up with? Do you have anything off the top of your head?
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B
If I was clever, I could come up with something. And in the edit, I probably will put something really funny. So laugh. Like I said something hilarious.
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A
That was a fake laugh.
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B
That was real.
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A
Oh, goodness. Well, I saw an article and guess who was quoted in it.
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B
Oh, yeah, the. From the Washington Post.
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A
Are you paying too much for shampoo and conditioner? The answer is yes, because I actually had to buy shampoo and conditioner the other day, which, by the way, aside from like buying competitor products, I haven't seen, seriously had to go buy shampoo in like 10 years at least. So I was like, people are spending this much on drugstore shampoo? Blew my mind. But anyway, the article was actually about salon quality shampoo versus mass market shampoo. And basically the experts, which includes the famous Perry Romanowski of the Beauty Brains podcast.
- [10:06]
B
From the Beauty Brains.
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A
Yeah, all the experts agreed many budget friendly products perform just as well as their pricier counterparts. But had they interviewed the other member of the Beauty Brains podcast, maybe I would have disagreed.
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B
Oh, really?
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A
Well, what did you say?
- [10:24]
B
Well, look, I was on the phone for over an hour talking to a reporter about this, just answering questions. And so I, I said a lot of stuff. What they took out of here, it's.
- [10:38]
A
Very distilled down and it's always like that. And I'm like, well, happens to me all the time. They took it out of context, right?
- [10:46]
B
I mean, says here I said the only difference in price, not performance shampoos and conditioner. Are essentially water and some ingredients that may not penetrate the hair and then get washed out. Difference between drugstore and salon brands is marketing. And you know, I pretty much. That's pretty close to what I think.
- [11:06]
A
Well, I think there's a bit of a difference. I mean, when you had a budget for a bottle of shampoo, what were you targeting per pound?
- [11:15]
B
It depends on the brand I was on. But you know, VO5, we were going for 15 cents a pound.
- [11:21]
A
Wow. Our budget was easily 10 times that. So we could afford to put a little more stuff in there. When it comes to the bare bones, brass tacks of it all, I guess I would say, like, yeah, fundamentally they do the same thing. The shampoo's clean, the conditioners condition, and they probably do it just fine compared to each other. I think the experience is a little bit different in a salon professional product. Typically the shampoos have a higher solids content. You know, maybe some really fancy silicones that do a little something something to the hair. So I probably would have added that, that there are nuances in formulation.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah, I wasn't saying that. Oh, they're the same and they just put a new name on it and you know, different bottles, they. I did mention that they use different surfactants often, although back in the day they didn't even do that. That was just a salon washing play, you know, you know, they had to get more sophisticated over the years. But you know, that's the kind of stuff that doesn't make it into the article.
- [12:27]
A
Not at all. Not at all. No. I thought you did a great job. I thought there would be more to it. You know, they said lower priced products contain more aggressive surfactants and I actually really disagree with that. A lot of salon professional brands and expensive products use surfactants such as sodium lauryl sulfate or sodium laureth. So sulfate.
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B
I know Aveda does.
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A
Yeah, Paul Mitchell did and you know, he said that they can irritate your scalp or dry out your hair and damage hair follicles all the time. All surfactants do that especially.
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B
Right.
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A
Sulfate free surfactants like the glucoside family is the worst for stripping your hair. So I didn't appreciate that opinion because I didn't think it was grounded in anything.
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B
Yeah, no, it's sort of a marketing thing that, that you get from the suppliers of those surfactants. Right. I mean, what does it even mean, a more aggressive surfactant? Because, you know, if you use 1% SLS and compare it to 10% Coco isothionate even though isoethionate at the same levels is gonna be more gentle 10 times versus one time. This SLS will be more gentle in that situation. You know, it depends on how much you use.
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A
Maybe they took him out of context.
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B
Yeah, probably. It's hard. That's one of these things. Whenever you read what an expert has said in an article, it might not exactly be what they said. I remember I was on the Dr. Oz Show.
- [13:51]
A
Mm. I remember.
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B
And they, they asked me about hair conditioners or something like that. And I remember in saying in the show, you know, I don't remember saying anything particularly objectionable. But then I saw a replay of what I said and they edited to make me say something that I didn't even remember saying. I like I did. I'm sure I did say that they edited it. So I did say that it was very interesting. So you have to be a little skeptical of what you hear on TV or reading the articles for sure.
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A
What else did you see? I think there's some celebrity news coming up.
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B
Well, Selena Gomez, she is now a billion dollar brand.
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A
Oh. With her rare beauty.
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B
Right. I didn't. Well, I didn't really know that she had rare building, but the. The only murders in the building actress has amassed a fortune of 1.3 billion, according to Bloomberg. And so now she's in the billionaires index for her rare beauty, which she founded five years ago. Wow.
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A
Do you think the brand would have done that well if she weren't Selena Gomez? No, absolutely not.
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B
No. It's because of her. But it says rare beauty's annual revenue is $350 million, so the brand is not quite a billion. Selena Gomez, however, is so congrats to her.
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A
I guess that's pretty cool.
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B
I suppose I'm a bit of a like a communist or something. I don't believe there should be billionaires. I think I'm like, once you get to a billion dollars, then everything after that is like tax 100%. I'm okay. You know, up to a billion, that's fine. But after that, nobody should be a multi billionaire.
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A
But don't you think a billion dollars isn't a whole lot anymore? It just doesn't get you anything.
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B
It doesn't get you as much.
- [15:38]
A
Do you remember when we used to be like, oh my God, I can't wait to be a millionaire when you're a kid and then it's like a million. You can't even retire on 1 million. Well, that's what they say. I don't know.
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B
But that's what they say.
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A
You definitely could be willing to try. Well, I'm gonna be retired in 10 years.
- [15:54]
B
Oh, well, congratulations.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah, I just celebrated a birthday and I actually am going to be retired in eight years. I'll be retired by the time I'm 50.
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B
Wow. Well, we look forward to that. Yeah, I, I won't be. Although I, I'm never gonna retire. I never want to stop making money, so. Because I, I left the corporate world in when I was 39, so that's when I retired.
- [16:20]
A
Well, I will always stay busy, but I've worked a lifetime and you know, I used to work 70 to 90 hours a week at another company and you know, I always had multiple jobs. Worked through college. My first job was in high school. I was a janitor. I'm done.
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B
Wow.
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A
My legs are.
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B
You know, my first job was what, picking beans?
- [16:43]
A
That's pretty cool. That's better than cleaning urinals at a factory that made circuit boards.
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B
So we've got some listener feedback.
- [16:51]
A
Victoria says hi beauty Brains. First of all, let me say I absolutely love your podcast and as a professional hairdresser, I guide a lot of my clients to listen so that they can also enjoy learning from critical thinking perspective with regards to beauty products. I was listening to your last episode 373 and the caller was asking about the kerasase shampoo containing 3% citric acid and 5% glycine. I wanted to point you towards the Kerastase website regarding this line. I use this brand in my salon and was at the education portion of this page and it is important to know that There is a first step to use which contains 3% citric acid and 5% glycine, which is the decalcification treatment, the products used on wet hair. It needs to be mechanically massaged into the hair for five minutes before adding this shampoo over it. The shampoo doesn't decalcify. It's the pre treatment that does. I live in Calgary, which has notoriously hard water and I found the product combined with a shower filter replaced every few months when used regularly has made mine and my clients hair softer and stronger and overall feeling much healthier.
- [17:58]
B
Victoria well, thanks Victoria. And in fact I think we kind of alluded to that in the show because it's the claim mentioned it was the system.
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A
Right. And it wasn't forthcoming that there was a pre treatment which sounds like it's a salon professional treatment because it's the pre treatment information isn't accessible and it sounds like it was made accessible through an education page, which is typically a salon professional website feature.
- [18:27]
B
And if you look at the ingredient list for the product that she references, indeed, it's water, glycerin, propylene, glycol, then glycine, which could be at 5%, and then Citric acid right after that, which clearly could be at 3%. So that would satisfy those claims, which is not surprising because this is a L'Oreal product. It's just that the shampoo, which was what was asked, does not contain 3% citric acid.
- [18:53]
A
And the shampoo page is a little misleading because the way the shampoo bottle is even featured, it makes it look like the actual shampoo itself has it. And that's what I don't like. And if you look at all the Redken products, all the L'Oreal products, all the Kerasaz products, they all are 10% fake fusion complex. And it's like, okay, well, that could be a lot. But if all of these ingredients are part of the fusion complex and they never actually tell you what the fusion complex is, it's just a little, you know, it's daft marketing. So.
- [19:27]
B
It is. But I must work for them.
- [19:30]
A
Yeah. But I appreciate Victoria sharing the feedback. I mean, it really makes sense that the glycine and citric acid do this work because it's well established that they are chelating agents. Well, let's head over to our questions.
- [19:48]
B
All right. Our first question comes from a patron. Incidentally, if you appreciate the show and we don't have ads, you can support us by going to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. This one comes to us, one of our patrons, Lee, who says, hey, beautybrains, first, thank you for all that you do and share with us. I've been following your podcast for years now and of course, have your book. My question is, can you comment on Botanic Oil for hair? Does it do anything? I keep seeing videos saying it helps hair growth. Any truth to that? You know, when I first read this, I thought it was banana oil.
- [20:23]
A
I did, too. And I was like, that is so cool. Where do I get banana oil from?
- [20:29]
B
But no, but Hanna oil. Have you heard of this oil?
- [20:32]
A
I have. It actually is a relative of the palm. It's actually a type of palm palm oil. So when you think of palm kernel oil, Ban oil is another species of the palm palm oil family. And when you look at the crude oil that comes out of it, if you were to just Google search Botanic Oil on the Internet, you actually would See, it's in its raw form, it kind of looks like an ugly almond butter slash peanut butter. And this is the crude form of the oil. It's, you know, kind of pasty in its essence. And there is nothing particularly special about the composite composition of this oil that would make hair grow. So I'm not sure where that comes from. Maybe it's a cultural thing. The oil is. Originates from a lot of it comes from Honduras and Central and South America. But I don't know why anyone would think it would grow hair otherwise. Like, there's no special reason for it.
- [21:37]
B
Yeah, it's pretty common that natural oils are put on people's head and it's said to make hair grow more. There's little to no evidence that that actually happens. But I could see traditionally people have been doing this and, you know, based on tradition and anecdotal evidence, people say, oh, you know, I put this oil on and I had hair the next day. And. And that just sort of propagates through society. And then when scientists come and do controlled testing, they throw all the cold water on that and say, oh no, it doesn't actually do that. And so that's probably where we are on this.
- [22:15]
A
Well, oils in any way, shape or form, if they are high in short chain acids like C8, which the botanic Oil wouldn't, or they're high in oleic acid, those actually can penetrate the hair and strengthen the hair. And what's nice about that is the oils also. The oils also offer lubrication. And so in that sense, your hair could appear to be growing because it's not breaking, because you have this penetration and lubrication and hair strengthening. So maybe that's what the hair growth means. It's not like it's actually going to make the hair grow out of your follicles, but protect premature breakage and split ends from occurring.
- [22:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think what people believe is that it's actually going to speed up your hair growth. But what has maybe has meant is that what you're saying, it keeps the hair on your head longer without preventing breakage, and that makes it looks like you got more hair.
- [23:11]
A
That's what I think is happening.
- [23:14]
B
What does Shelly have to say? Shelly says, I recently purchased a new hair product that advertises it's quat free as part of their marketing strategy. After taking a shallow look online, I cannot find any evidence that quats are harmful in any way. What are your thoughts on advantages of a product being free of this ingredient? Love the show, Shelly. So quats are an ingredient used in hair products for conditioning effects. Essentially, they are able to stick to the hair fiber and resist being rinsed off. And so then when you're combing your hair, these, they lubricate the fibers and keeps your hair nice and conditioned. So what is the problem with these?
- [24:02]
A
Anytime you hear the word quat, think hair conditioner. They're positively charged. As Perry said, people, meaning I don't know who, but there is some negative sentiment in the industry.
- [24:16]
B
Run for office.
- [24:17]
A
Who are they?
- [24:18]
B
You know, one time I had this notion when I was growing up, if I ever had a kid, I would name them they because that way everyone would always be talking about them. You know, they said, oh my goodness.
- [24:31]
A
That'S a terrible idea.
- [24:34]
B
I know. It's a good thing I didn't ever procreate as far as I know.
- [24:38]
A
Smart. Oh my goodness. Well, anyway, Shelley, So quats, there are some factions of the industry, of some industry, I don't know what, that don't like quats because they have an unfavorable position as being not inherently biodegradable. Now that doesn't mean they don't degrade at some point, it just means they don't spontaneously and readily biodegrade. So there is a bit of a difference. But nonetheless, people are tending not to like quats and they're looking for quat free solutions. They do. They can accumulate in the environment that, you know, that is the truth. But eventually they, they can go away. Nonetheless, I think this is something that we're going to continue to see in the world of products, especially hair products. It wouldn't make sense for a skincare product to be quat free because there's not too many cationic skincare products. But the challenge is when you don't use quats in a hair product, the hair just does not feel as good because nothing is sticking to the hair. Damaged hair is negatively charged and you take positively charged ingredients and stick them to the hair. And this is typically a synthetic chemistry. There's not a lot of naturally occurring quats in the environment. And so you've had these quat alternatives come out by different manufacturers. Some of them are just downright terrible. And I provided that feedback. I won't name them on this show because I don't want to embarrass the ingredient manufacturers. And some of them are like, decent. But the reality is like quats just tend to perform better. The other reality is you have to use anywhere from like 6 to 10% of a quat free ingredient, whereas A regular quat you could use at 3% or less active material. So you have to use several times the amount of a quat free material than a quat itself. And so in my opinion, what's the ramifications of that? But nonetheless, they're not harmful to people. They just have a negative view in terms of their fate in the environment. And so the industry is trying to move towards quat free materials to replace quats, to condition hair. And I think they will have a very hard time.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah, the nice thing about quats, remember that brand finesse. Sometimes you need a little finesse, sometimes you need a lot.
- [27:04]
A
You know, I actually that's one hotel shampoo I've been like, I like this shampoo. It's just a basic sulfated shampoo. Leaves the hair soft from the gums in it pretty great.
- [27:14]
B
But the whole notion of their conditioners was that it, that's how they said. So these quats will actually go where the damaged hair is and they stick to the damaged hair. But where your hair is not damaged, the quats will just rinse away. And so it's actually targeted conditioning. Whereas the replacements are just going to be mostly oils and emollients and those they can't target where you need it. And so it's going to coat your whole hair if it's, if it coats at all. And so that's the challenge.
- [27:45]
A
You're telling me someone on Finesse's marketing team said this is intelligent technology, it's targeting damage. Someone latched onto that.
- [27:57]
B
I'm sure it was the scientists who told them this is what they should say.
- [28:01]
A
Well, I'm pretty sure they told them how it worked, like, oh, it's positively charged, only sticks to the negatively damaged chart. And a marketing person was like, let's twist this.
- [28:11]
B
Yes, right.
- [28:12]
A
Even though it's just like, but that's how it works. And they're like, it's a marketing story.
- [28:17]
B
I will point out one other thing about quats. Certainly something like citromonium chloride. There can be some irritation issues with these things, especially with the leave on product. In fact, if you use a quat like citromonium chloride in a Levon product, you are Limited to 0.25% use level because of irritation concerns. So there is that also concern and another reason why some people might want to avoid them. But overall it's more of a quat free is more of a fear marketing angle that gets you to buy something else.
- [28:54]
A
Yeah, well, I mean most people are using them within the allowed Use levels anyway. So, Shelley, embrace the quad.
- [29:02]
B
Embrace the quad.
- [29:03]
A
Our next question comes to us from Lorena, a patron on Patreon, who we often hear from. Is she surpassing Timothy as a superfan? I don't know.
- [29:12]
B
Yeah, I don't know. We'll have to see Timothy. We need another question.
- [29:16]
A
Hi, beauty brains. One more question about another shampoo that I'm loving. What makes it clarifying and is it okay to use more than once per week like the instructions say? I do see that my highlights look brighter and my hair is not as heavy. Thank you. And the shampoo, according to a Google search of the ingredient list provided, is the living proof clarifying detox shampoo.
- [29:39]
B
I have to say I'm looking at this shampoo. So it's sulfate free. It's based on isothionate and hydroxy sultanes and a taurate. Oh, and then they throw in glucoside for good measure. That's a lot of surfactants, I have to say.
- [29:55]
A
It is. It is. I'm personally not a fan of sodium lauryl methyl isethionate. Not for me. It has a. A slimy feel to it. Hence slmi. We talked about this before. The manufacturer does not like when I say these things, but nonetheless, it does offer a distinct feel. It's pretty cleansing. I think it helps that they have some other surfactants present in it. You never just want to use one surfactant or even just two. This one has four predominant surfactants in its profile, and I think it could be considered a clarifying shampoo. I mean, this wouldn't be my surfactant choice for a clarifying shampoo, but because it, you know, I just don't think it would be very cleansing. But the most important thing that this shampoo is doing is it's not depositing conditioning agents.
- [30:50]
B
Yeah, there isn't. There aren't a lot of conditioning agents, but. But I will say I'm looking at this and I say to myself, why do you have cetyl alcohol in there? You have cetearyl alcohol. You have stearic acid. You have all of these waxes and stuff that make it look pearly, but that kind of reduces the clarifying effect. These ingredients can interfere with cleansing.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah, I was surprised, and I was trying to find a picture of the product first format, because, yeah, I was like, is this kind of like opaquey creamy? Which, you know, it might be because of some of the other things that they have in here. It's definitely pearlized. It has glycerol stearate in it. But I'm wondering if that's to help with opacity. But you're right, it would have some kind of opposite effect. But I will say that Living Proof is a unilever owned brand. I personally know. Well, I guess I would say I professionally know. I don't. We're not like friends. But, you know, I know the team over at Living Proof and they do a really fantastic job when it comes to claim substantiation. So when they say it removes 90% of product buildup, 95 of sebum and pollution, 65 of copper on the hair, I really believe that it is doing those things because they do the validation and they do so much work before they go to market. And Lorena, if you're loving this, I know that you were struggling to find, you know, some shampoos in the past that you love, you know, keep, keep doing it. It's. Your hair is not as heavy because the shampoo is not depositing a bunch of junk onto the hair.
- [32:33]
B
Now, as far as the question of whether you can use it more than once a week, yeah, I think that would be fine. Especially this one.
- [32:42]
A
This chassis is so similar to other shampoos on the market, you surely could use it. Now, you'll know quickly when you're overusing it because your hair may feel stiff and kind of scummy. But use it as often as you feel like you need it.
- [32:57]
B
All right, we got another one from a patron. Louisa says, I've got the lovely perimenopausal. Hair thinning. That's not my full name, by the way. Perry.
- [33:10]
A
Oh my goodness. When you're cranky, I'm gonna call you that. Perry M. Romanowski.
- [33:19]
B
Okay. Hair thinning. And My doctor prescribed 5% minoxidil, which was pretty expensive for a two month supply at the specialty pharmacy. After looking around for alternatives, I ended up buying the Nioxin three step system because I thought it had minoxidil as an ingredient. But after opening it and using it twice, I realized that the women's nioxin, which I purchased, does not seem to have minoxidil in its formulation while the men's formulation does. Is that correct? The women's formula seems to have B3 mint and caffeine. Do those ingredients actually do anything for hair thinning? Also, is minoxidil the best treatment to counteract hair thinning? I guess a solution would be to buy the men's formula. Is there any reason why I can't use it for women's hair. Appreciate your thoughts. And then further, I did a bit of researching regarding Rogaine, which does have minoxidil in its formula. And the men's versus the women's 5% formula seemed to be exactly the same to me. Ingredient wise, only the women's is 30 to 40% more expensive than the men's. And the men's box says clearly not for women, both on the front and under the caution. Is this just a pink tax or is there some hidden ingredient in the men's formula that is really not good for women? Thank you, Louisa. All right, a lot to unpack here, but let's start with this 5%. Let's start with this. Nioxin.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah. So Nioxin is a brand by Procter and Gamble and not all of their products have minoxidil in them. One may think that they do based on the name and their initial product launch having and their marketing.
- [34:57]
B
Yeah. Minoxidil in it is implying that the.
- [35:00]
A
Women'S formula is actually based on a research paper that they did a handful of years ago. And I don't want to say this is their only women's formula. It's the, it's the one that you purchase. They actually have several different systems, but the fact that it has niacinamide, vitamin B3, mint and caffeine in it is. And I think the study also had panthenol, so you may want to check for panthenol in this formula. But the Procter and Gamble study actually looked at this composition in hair growth improvement, fiber diameter improvement. And so according to this paper funded by Proctor and Gamble, who owns Nioxin, those ingredients actually do improve the density of hair. But in terms of hair growth, it's really minoxidil that's going to be doing the legwork which is missing from that formulation.
- [35:53]
B
Yeah, I, I would be skeptical that the B3 mint and caffeine are having much impact on reducing your thinning hair or something or making thinning thingy hair look like you have more hair or something.
- [36:07]
A
I also was surprised that two months of minoxidil is more expensive than Nioxin because I don't think Nioxin is that in. I wouldn't consider. Consider it inexpensive.
- [36:18]
B
Right. I remember when I was on the Consort brand, which is the Alberto Culver had a men's hair care line called Consort and we did a deal with the Rogaine folks to license out minoxidil. So we had a Consort shampoo that had minoxidil at 5% or whatever. You had to license it out that technology. It never really grew the brand or anything. It's a puny brand that eventually disappeared, I think. But that was my experience with using that. Now we did not have a women's version, but as far as what we've gleaned about this, if your doctor has prescribed 5% minoxidil, clearly it's okay for women to use that much. But I see in the marketing of this there is some concern about women using that high a level of minoxidil. It might start to jumpstart facial hair growth, which could be an issue for some people. And so that's one of the legitimate reasons why you would find a difference in the prescriptions of a men's products.
- [37:34]
A
Versus a women's products when these products are developed. Minoxidil is just not an arbitrary cosmetic ingredient. It actually went through extensive clinical trials to get FDA approved as an androgenetic alopecia drug active.
- [37:50]
B
That's a drug. Yeah.
- [37:52]
A
And the reason all of the minoxidil drug type formulas are the same, where it's basically water, propylene, glycol, minoxidil, maybe a preservative, is that this is what was tested in these clinical trials. A 5% foam, a 5% solution and a 2% solution. And these different concentrations were tested on men and tested on women. And the reason we see a lot of 5% products for men, 2% for women. Sometimes you see 2% for men as well. This is based on the clinical testing that was done and the fact that on the 5% men's version of minoxidil, they say, you know, not intended for women, women can grow, you know, facial hair if they use it. Is that that's really like a side effect of use of this product. And that's not to say women can't use the 5%, but I would check the prescription of what you're doctor has given you and look at some of the side effects and see if that's really what it is. And for.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah, and if your doctor has already said you can use 5%, I see no reason why you couldn't just use the commercial 5% for a men. For men, you know, it's. Even though it says not for women, that's it means not for most women. But since your doctor has already prescribed 5%, I think you'd be fine using it.
- [39:17]
A
Yeah. And it's a bit interesting that the men's and women's formulas have different price points. The drug Active would be the same. The solvent is in would be the same. And so I would also look at the inactive ingredients that are present and see if those are also the same. And you know, you could choose to buy the men's 5% and save some kind of money. But that actually really is a great question for the Rogaine parent company.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah. And my guess is indeed, yes, it's a pink tax. It wouldn't surprise me at all. All right, we have time for one more question.
- [39:53]
A
It comes from Ashley. Really love listening to you guys. I know we normally talk about products and ingredient questions, but right now though, I feel like I need to chat on when to move on from your current organization. I'm on the struggle bus at the moment. Working for a large company. Ownership keeps adding more middle aged men into leadership and ownership, making an incredible profit off women per purchasers. Do I get over it or keep going or is this just how the industry is? Do I move on? I know you guys have worked in different industries and maybe have seen it all. Thanks Valerie and Perry.
- [40:27]
B
You know what a funny thing at the company I work for the CEO now. I work for primarily a hair care company, although we did some skin care, but hair care primarily and our CEO completely bald guy.
- [40:42]
A
It's like I don't use none of that crap.
- [40:48]
B
It is true though that the most of the upper management were all, you know, middle aged dudes. Although our company was ultimately run by the founder's daughter and she hired a couple of women. Although even she would hire mostly men though, which is interesting.
- [41:12]
A
When I talk to people about career choices, the first thing I tell people to figure out, regardless of what industry you're in, is to figure out what kind of company you work best for. In terms of company size, a larger company is fantastic for many reasons. You have endless resources, you have a clear growth path ahead of you. There's clearly defined roles with accompanying pays that go with it. Negatives are, there's a lot of red tape. You often tend to be really hyper focused on one thing and you have to deal with all the corporate stuff. That kind of goes with being at a large corporation politics.
- [41:49]
B
And I would totally agree. You get, you can get pigeonholed too. Like the company I was at, if you were, you know, shampoos and conditioners, that's all they wanted you to do. They didn't want you to learn how to make a skin product. They didn't want you to even learn how to make hairspray. Everybody had their roles and they wanted to build that up. It's great for the company, but it's not great for you, your career. Because if the company, you know, gets, sells out and moves everything to the east coast and you're sitting there looking for a job, you only know how to do this one thing. But other companies want all kinds of the ability to make all kinds of formulas. So corporations are not always in it for you to build your career in the best ways, which is why you have to do some independent learning.
- [42:36]
A
And for some people, a large corporation is a really great fit. Small companies are great in the sense that you get to wear a lot of hats, you get to learn a lot of things, you get to do things outside of a traditional cosmetic chemist role that give you a lot of versatility that Perry's describing. However, smaller companies don't have necessarily a lot of corporate structure. Not a clear growth path. There's a very limited path to the ceiling.
- [43:04]
B
So sometimes ceilings are usually lower.
- [43:07]
A
So sometimes it's you and then the people who own the company. And so like, where else are you going to go up from there? They also aren't resourced or necessarily dedicated to advancing the science aspect. At the end of the day, all companies are about putting out product. But large companies tend to set aside dollars for real innovation, real research and that kind of thing. And for some people like myself, a medium to small company is a really great fit because I kind of like to march to the beat of my own drum and I'm not one for red tape and bureaucracy and playing games and all that kind of stuff. So the sooner you can figure that out, the better. But it sounds like that's not your current issue. It sounds like you are at a large company, but your issue is you don't like the leadership and you don't like the fact that they're making an incredible. That segment of leadership is looking to profit off women purchasers. And I don't want to say that's how the industry is, but that's how any business is. You are trying to profit off of people and you're trying to grow sales and you may just have a different demographic. And you know, I could work at a salon brand and say, oh man, I can't believe this company is just trying to make an incredible profit off these hard working salon professionals. But then I would go to a mass market brand and say, wow, I can't believe this company is just looking to make an incredible profit off like hard working people, right? It's if you are working for a consumer product goods company, Whoever you are working for is looking to make an incredible profit. That's just how it is. You kind of have to accept that piece of it. Yeah. In terms of like who is getting into leadership, that part stinks. I always, when I was in my roles, honestly, I just put my head down and kept working and I kept focusing on myself and what I could do for my department or what I could do for myself in my own career, learning because, you know, I worked more like on the operations and management side. And it's an incredibly male dominated field, especially manufacturing is. And so you just try to avoid the, the demographics of who's in the room and just focus it on, on the issue, the principles, the decisions, the, you know, whatever it is. And that's how I was able to get through it. But if you went to another company, it could be all women. And there's a different set of problems that comes with that. Not every company has like a really balanced dynamic. And so you kind of have to think for yourself and say, you know, what really is the issue with me working here? And would moving my career to a different company create a different environment? And what comes along with that different environment? And what other problems would I have to be faced with? And kind of like, what, what are you willing to deal with? Or maybe it's, you know what, I could do this for a couple more years and I'm going to set my sights on this other type of thing. But that's kind of the short of it.
- [46:08]
B
I will say that having been in the industry since the early 90s till now, there certainly has been a change where more women are getting involved in upper management. And so that's a good thing. There's especially more women in the lab. I remember going to Society cosmetic chemists meetings and it was pretty much 75% men and 25% women. That is totally flipped. Now it's more like 60% women and 40% men.
- [46:39]
A
Now I heard, I think it was the University of Toledo cosmetic undergraduate program. I heard it's all women, one men, or maybe it was Cincy. But one of the programs, it's literally all women and there's one male student in the program. So I think it's definitely flipping and it's going to take time for those people to get into the industry and evolve into leadership roles.
- [47:01]
B
Right. The other thing I will add is that whenever you start your career and in your career, I always encourage people to have the attitude that you're always working for yourself.
- [47:16]
A
I was my own CEO when I was at my previous life.
- [47:19]
B
Yep, exactly. And if you don't like the situation you're in, you can get the right training on your own or look for opportunities and move. Don't be afraid. Don't be loyal to companies because they won't be loyal to you. You could do the best job. I was the best stability tester in the world. And that doesn't really matter that you're that good, because if a company doesn't need that to make money, or a new company comes in and they have something else to replace that, they'll just replace you. You know, you'll get compensated and such usually, but they'll. They'll get rid of you. So having loyalty to a company, you should have loyalty to yourself and of course, always do a good job. But, you know, build yourself up.
- [48:08]
A
And I would also say don't make a rash move because you may think, oh, gosh, I have to get out of this situation. I'm really struggling just being here. And you may move to an organization, one, that doesn't solve your problems, but two, that isn't good, a good move for you. So let's say you're working at a large brand and you make a desperate jump to maybe a contract manufacturer, which is not a bad thing. There's lots of great chemists at contract manufacturers, but it's like a different working mindset. And then you say, oh, gee, I made a mistake. I don't like the pace, I don't like what I have to do. And then you jump to a different company. Maybe you go back to a brand, but it's like a tinier brand or, you know, or you have to leave, like being a chemist and go into a different role. Just like, keep working and get out of the situation you're in. I would say, like, you have a job, you're at a large company, it's probably great for your resume. I would just look for the. The next right opportunity and take your time and do your research and ask people, you know, the ingredient salesman, know everything about every company and ask kind of what it's like working there to make sure that you make the right next move for yourself.
- [49:19]
B
The grass is certainly not always greener. And you know what else is greener? That music.
- [49:26]
A
Thanks for listening, everyone. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review that's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.
- [49:37]
B
You know, I hear other podcasts, they just say, hey, leave a five star review. So maybe we should tell that.
- [49:42]
A
I think that's against FTC rules. I think people just have to leave a review and so maybe we'll report those other podcasts.
- [49:50]
B
We should. We're talking about you form of botanica. I'm gonna cut that out and if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com we do answer audio questions when we get them. Also, the Beauty Brains are on Patreon if you like. Appreciate that we don't have commercials and we can say whatever we think about any brand. That's because we're supported by our patrons. So if you want to support us, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level.
- [50:23]
A
Don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok and thanks again for listening everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [50:39]
B
Thanks everyone. Kittens.
- [51:06]
C
DJ combs on the deck she's taking a snooze While the heat toe and blue shares some loving news he misers under bushes yeah, he's laying low Waiting for the moment to steal Puffer's show Orange kitties living life free and wild each one's got their own style Ain't no docile child they're gone to dust they claiming they're spacing in Chicago backyard is their own dang place Puffer see Alpha he's causing a scene Eating everyone's food man, he's just so mean he buys and steps up says hey, that's not cool they wrestle and tussle breaking all the rules Poor chicks living life free and wild each one's got their own style Ain't no docile trial from dawn to dust they claim in their space and in Chicago backyard is their own dang place Living life free and wild each one's got their own style Ain't no docile child they're dawn to dust they claim in their space and then Chicago backyard is their own dang place.