Episode 379 - Wonder Water, Product Dupes, Sunscreen layering and more

Summary

The Beauty Brains: Episode 379 - Wonder Water, Product Dupes, Sunscreen Layering and More

Release Date: November 22, 2024

In Episode 379 of The Beauty Brains, hosts Valerie George and Perry Romanowski delve into a range of intriguing beauty topics, providing scientific insights and expert advice to listeners' burning questions. This episode covers everything from sunscreen layering and product dupes to the use of blue light in acne treatment and pre-treatment hair care. Here's a comprehensive summary of the key discussions, complete with notable quotes and timestamps.

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1. Guest Appearance and Light Banter (00:00 - 03:24)

The episode kicks off with Valerie and Perry reminiscing about their recent guest appearance on Jonathan Van Ness's podcast, Pretty Curious.

• Valerie George [00:00]: "Welcome to the Beauty Brains... This is episode 379."
• Perry Romanowski [00:54]: "Valerie, we were a guest on a show recently which is a lot of fun."

Their friendly exchange highlights the camaraderie between the hosts and sets a welcoming tone for the episode.

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2. Listener Follow-Up on 3O Ascorbic Acid (07:58 - 13:16)

A listener named Khan revisits a previous discussion on 3O Ethyl Ascorbic Acid, seeking clarification on its stability and efficacy compared to other vitamin C derivatives.

• Khan's Question [07:58]: "Is 3O ascorbic acid more stable and effective than other vitamin C derivatives?"

Valerie George [08:55]: "3Oethyl ascorbic acid is more stable than ascorbic acid because one of the hydroxyl groups has been substituted, which stabilizes it."

Perry Romanowski [09:59]: "Stability also depends on the formula it's in. Suppliers test the ingredient alone, which differs from its stability within a complete formula."

The duo discusses the chemical modifications that enhance the stability of 3O Ethyl Ascorbic Acid, its penetration into the skin, and its comparative efficacy. They emphasize the importance of formulation and skepticism towards supplier-provided marketing data.

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3. Sunscreen Layering and Reapplication (14:14 - 19:46)

Louisa raises concerns after experiencing a sunburn despite vigilant sunscreen use, involving the layering of Glytone Hydrolipid UV40 Plus and ELTA MD tinted sunscreens.

• Louisa's Question [14:14]: "Can layering sunscreens make them less effective? How often should tinted sunscreens be reapplied?"

Valerie George [15:29]: "If you're combining two different sunscreens, they might have conflicting film-forming ingredients, disrupting each other's effectiveness."

Perry Romanowski [16:25]: "The Glytone sunscreen contains only 2% titanium dioxide and 1% zinc oxide, which is a low amount and may not provide adequate protection."

They advise ensuring sufficient SPF application, being cautious with combining different sunscreen brands, and following reapplication guidelines—typically every two hours as per FDA recommendations.

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4. Using L'Oreal Wonder Water on the Scalp (20:37 - 23:24)

Lorena shares her experience of inadvertently applying L'Oreal Wonder Water to her scalp, contrary to the product instructions.

• Lorena's Account [20:37]: "I forgot to read the instructions and applied Wonder Water to my scalp, which wasn't recommended."

Valerie George [22:20]: "The product contains propylene glycol and alcohol, which are penetration enhancers and can cause irritation if not used as directed."

The hosts explain the potential reasons behind the product's warnings, such as the formulation's harsh ingredients and the risk of scalp irritation. They reassure that occasional misuse is unlikely to cause severe harm but emphasize adhering to product guidelines for optimal results.

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5. History and Efficacy of Blue Light in Acne Treatment (24:31 - 27:36)

Melissa questions the origins of blue light therapy for acne, suspecting an earlier discovery than the cited 1998 date.

• Melissa's Question [24:31]: "Was blue light therapy for acne discovered after correlating blue light devices with decreased acne, and is 1998 its actual inception?"

Valerie George [25:31]: "Research on blue light's effect on P. Acnes dates back to 1987, showing its ability to photodestroy acne-causing bacteria."

Perry Romanowski [27:12]: "Blue light technology has been FDA-approved since the 2000s, confirming its effectiveness as an anti-acne treatment."

They clarify that blue light therapy has been studied and utilized long before 1998, debunking the notion that it's a recent innovation tied to the rise of blue light-emitting devices like smartphones.

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6. Pre-Treatment Hair Care and Potential Damage (29:04 - 33:21)

Lucy from the UK inquires about the use of pre-shampoo bond-building treatments for fine, thinning hair and whether prolonged wetness during application could cause damage.

• Lucy's Question [29:04]: "Does using pre-treatment products, which keep hair wet longer, cause more harm to thinning, fine hair?"

Valerie George [30:04]: "Bond-building pre-shampoo treatments can strengthen hair by rebuilding bonds, but overuse or using heavy formulations on fine hair can lead to breakage."

Perry Romanowski [33:08]: "Balancing conditioner and avoiding overly heavy pre-treatments can help maintain hair integrity without adding extra stress."

They advise moderating the use of bond builders, opting for lightweight conditioning agents, and ensuring thorough rinsing to prevent mechanical stress and breakage.

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7. Defining Product Dupes and Skincare Practices (33:50 - 42:02)

Miri, a chemistry student, poses multiple questions regarding product dupes, differences between men's and women's skincare, the incorporation of hypochlorous acid into skincare routines, and optimal waiting periods between skincare steps.

a. What Constitutes a Product Dupe?

• Valerie George [33:50]: "A dupe mirrors the essence, vibe, or functionality of another product without necessarily having an identical ingredient list."

Perry Romanowski [34:05]: "A dupe aims to replicate the performance, look, and feel of a target product, often used by lower-cost brands to emulate high-end products."

b. Differences Between Men's and Women's Skincare Products

• Valerie George [37:04]: "Men's skincare typically features lighter, non-greasy textures, whereas women's products may include richer, more occlusive formulations."

Perry Romanowski [37:04]: "There's no strict rule; it often depends on the brand and consumer preferences rather than inherent differences."

c. Incorporating Hypochlorous Acid into Skincare

• Valerie George [38:37]: "Hypochlorous acid is a disinfectant that's not ideal for skincare due to its non-selective targeting of skin flora and instability in formulations."

Perry concurs, emphasizing its limited suitability for cosmetic use and highlighting the challenges in maintaining its efficacy within skincare products.

d. Waiting Between Skincare Steps

• Valerie George [40:38]: "Timing between steps depends on product types. Moisturizers can be layered quickly, but allowing substrates to set can prevent product interactions."

Perry Romanowski [42:02]: "It's largely a matter of personal preference and aesthetic comfort rather than a strict rule."

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8. Conclusion and Call to Action (42:15 - 44:05)

The episode wraps up with Valerie and Perry encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast by leaving reviews, supporting through Patreon, and following their social media channels. They humorously discuss expanding their social media presence and maintaining their commitment to providing science-backed beauty advice.

• Perry Romanowski [43:10]: "If you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com."
• Valerie George [43:58]: "Be brainy about your beauty."

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Key Takeaways

• Sunscreen Layering: Combining different sunscreens can interfere with their effectiveness due to conflicting film-forming ingredients. Proper application and adequate amounts are crucial for protection.

• 3O Ethyl Ascorbic Acid: More stable than traditional ascorbic acid but requires appropriate formulation to maximize efficacy. Skepticism towards supplier claims is advised.

• Blue Light Therapy: Proven effective for acne treatment since the late 20th century, independent of the rise in blue light-emitting device usage.

• Pre-Treatment Hair Care: Beneficial for strengthening hair when used appropriately but can cause damage if overused or applied too heavily on fine, thinning hair.

• Product Dupes: Defined by their ability to replicate the performance and feel of higher-end products without identical ingredients, often leveraged by more affordable brands.

• Skincare Practices: Individual preferences dictate the timing between applying skincare products, with no one-size-fits-all rule.

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Listen to Episode 379 of The Beauty Brains for more in-depth discussions and expert advice on navigating the complex world of beauty and cosmetic products.

Transcript

[Valerie George]

Hi, I'm Valerie, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 379. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Peri Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

Hello, Valerie. Great to see you.

[Valerie George]

Good to see you. I'm glad you're back. On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions, including, can layering sunscreens make them less effective? Why can't you use L'Oreal Wonder Water on your scalp? What's the history of using blue light to treat acne? Is it damaging to use a pre treatment on hair? And when can you call a formula a dupe? But first, inane chitchat.

[Perry Romanowski]

Valerie, we were a guest on a show recently which is a lot of fun.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my goodness, we had such a great time on Jonathan Van Nessa's podcast, jvn. Maybe you know him from Queer Eye. Maybe you know him from his hair brand. But we had so much fun. You killed me, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, it's funny, I was talking to my wife about that, and I was like, oh, yeah, we're on this podcast. I think there's a guy from, like, queer. And she like, well, who? I'm like, I don't know, John or something like that.

[Valerie George]

John.

[Perry Romanowski]

She's like, what? What? You were on with him. Like, like, he's like a big star.

[Valerie George]

Like, even Mr. Cosmetic Chemist knew who he was.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, yeah, I did. I did not. But.

[Valerie George]

Well, he didn't know who he was, but he was familiar with the matter.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure, sure. Well, I am so oblivious to it, but my wife was way impressed.

[Valerie George]

Oh, gosh. Well, guys, I'm going to give you a little sneak peek, but we do want you to listen to the full thing when it drops. We don't know when. We forgot to ask, but it's called Pretty Curious.

[Perry Romanowski]

Next week. Next week.

[Valerie George]

Oh, okay. All right. Well, you guys should listen anyway, because it was actually a lot of fun, and I have a feeling it's that funny on every episode. But Perry was asked a question. We were both asked questions in the Rapid Fire segment.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

What don't you leave home without. And I was like, lip balm. And I said, burt's Bees. But I actually meant to say La Roche Posay. The Kikoplast. I get it in Europe. It's so good. But I couldn't remember the name, so I said, burt's Bees. Which is also true. Perry said toothpaste. And the look on JVN's face, he was like, what? And he said just toothpaste. And it was like every time you leave the house. And Perry was like, yes. I love how you doubled down and committed to it.

[Perry Romanowski]

I did. I did commit to it. To be fair, I was answering the question, like, when you go traveling, what is something?

[Valerie George]

Or like, you go to an island or something? Yeah, I knew that's what you meant. But you committed to it. You kept going.

[Perry Romanowski]

I know. Well, then I realized what it was more broadly, like, whenever you go out, like, all right, I'll just go with it.

[Valerie George]

There were, like, 10 other funny moments like that, guys. It was really awesome. So anyway, it drops next week, the week of November 18th, something like that. Check it out.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And it's called Pretty Curious.

[Valerie George]

In other news, Perry, there has been a pretty kitty sighting. She's been missing for a few weeks.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

And the last time anyone saw her on camera was she clearly had an injury. And I was like, she's dead. We talked about this. I just had to assume she was no longer with us. But I landed late one night at an airport, and I always park my car at my lab because it's, like, right next to both airports in Dallas. And I saw her, and I think her knee or elbow is dislocated or something like that, because it's. Her leg is all gangly, but the hip works. And I got some great tips from Instagram, mostly podcast listeners, and they gave me some good advice on how to trap her.

[Perry Romanowski]

So.

[Valerie George]

So we're gonna do it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Okay, well, good. Hopefully that works out. You know what else worked out for me? Fortunately, I had this little white spot on my lip.

[Valerie George]

Okay.

[Perry Romanowski]

And it's been there for a while. And my dentist is like, yeah, maybe you should get that checked out by a dermatologist.

[Valerie George]

Did your wife ever tell you to get it checked out by a dermatologist?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, not really. So it's not really that I notice it, but it's not really that noticeable. So I go to the dermatologist, and they. They do, like, a biopsy. And then I start thinking, well, geez, what if I got skin cancer?

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

And then. So I. And then I had this weird. I had this sore leg for, you know, and it's in a weird spot where I'm like, why is it there? And then I'm like, well, wait, I have skin cancer. Probably spread to bone. Now I probably have bone cancer. I'm probably going to be dead in Two years.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my go. Two years if you're lucky. Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

I know. I woke up in the middle of the night and I'm having this existential dread after getting this biopsy. But unfortunately, two days later they said, no, it was nothing. So I'm good, I guess.

[Valerie George]

Did your legs stop hurting? Sometimes that happens.

[Perry Romanowski]

No, it still hurts. And that's actually due to some other repetitive stress injury that I got. Oh, well. So use your sunscreen, people.

[Valerie George]

Speaking of repetitive stress, you basically have been gone for a long time. Usually you're telling me that, but now I can tell you that you were in South America and then you took right off to Bangkok. What were you doing there?

[Perry Romanowski]

I did. There was a. In cosmetics show and I was speaking out there, which was a lot of fun and there was some interesting stuff at the show. But I'm always amazed at the. All this new technology that come out and all these demos and they all look the same to me. There's like. Yeah, no, there's like this dearth of real change and innovation in our industry, despite what the marketing tells you. Right. It seems like there's a lot. But I mean, there were some interesting technologies, some replacements for new, new silicones, which was interesting that anybody is out there promoting a new silicone because it's not natural, but they do work very well.

[Valerie George]

And I think in Asian SC skin care, they're not minded.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right. So that makes sense there, too. I saw a lot of fermented biosurfactants, so that's kind of the new way to replace petroleum products with fermented products. So there was a lot of that. Natural oil thickeners was kind of an interesting thing there. But, you know, nothing that would really impact consumers in, in a way. So, you know, still, still searching. The other thing is that there wasn't a lot of new hair care stuff. It was mostly skin care there.

[Valerie George]

I could see how that is because it's in Asia. But yeah, hair care is still having a moment, but now people are moving on to body care. And I'll save it for predictions next month, but I think people are going to be bored with body care soon and they're going to be moving on to something else. And we'll tell you about it when we do our 2025. What's new?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe lip care.

[Valerie George]

You're gonna need it.

[Perry Romanowski]

I am. I need that lip balm now that I had that biopsy done. All right, are we ready to move out?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Let's head over to Beauty Science News. Except we don't have any because around this time of year it's all recapping what happened this year. Nothing's really going on. So anyway, we do have a listener follow up.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, we did a question back in episode 376 from Khan and it was about 3o ascorbic acid. And then Khan says, I noticed toward the end there was some doubt to the sustained efficacy long term. I would appreciate you expanding on this, please, when you have some time. All the supplier data produced by three separate manufacturers stated as completely stable for long periods and that compared to other vitamin C derivatives, it was far more effective. Again, no clinical data. It would also be of interest to understand how the other derivatives stack up against it. I know you need far more of the others for your. For the same potency. Thank you. So this is just about. There was a question about 3O ascorbic acid and whether it's the. Well, it's the bee's knees of vitamin C derivatives. And what do you think here, Valerie, first of a stability thing?

[Valerie George]

Well, we did say it was very stable, especially in comparison to ascorbic acid, because 3oethyl ascorbic acid is basically ascorbic acid, but one of the hydroxyl groups on the ring has been substituted with an ethoxyethyl group and hence the 3oethyl ascorbic acid. This substitution stabilizes it, but it also makes it less effective naturally compared to regular ascorbic acid. You have to get it into the skin and it has to convert to ascorbic acid. Now, the good thing is it doesn't under have to undergo enzymatic breakdown so it will decompose on its own. It is a quasi drug for skin lightening in Japan. So there is at 1%. There's mixed feedback on use levels in literature and how it gets there. But from a stability perspective, compared to ascorbic acid, it is more stable because it is substituted.

[Perry Romanowski]

It's also important to note when you're talking about stability, that also depends on the formula that it's in. Now when suppliers are doing their stability testing and such, they're usually just doing it on the ingredient, not the ingredient within a formula. And so the stability by the ingredient by itself is different than when the stability of that ingredient in total formula. So that's important to note.

[Valerie George]

And while ascorbic acid is stable for, you know, days or weeks, it turns orange brown pretty fast, depending on what else is in the formula. 3 Oethyl ascorbic acid does have a much longer delay in doing that, but it still does that. It's not right bulletproof like we would think it is. So it does have. That's the doubt in our stability and in my experience with it, by the way. So you know, it has PH requirements, it has incorporation requirements and you have to be careful with what else you put it in there, what type of packaging it goes. And you still have to do all the things that you would do with ascorbic acid. But as far as its efficacy goes, it's pretty efficacious. You know, I think it, while it is more stable than ascorbic acid, it does have the ability to get into skin. You can improve penetration with solvents in your formulation. It doesn't need this like really ultra low stupid PH of 3.5 in order for it to be effective. So it's intrinsically less irritating for skin.

[Perry Romanowski]

But for it to work, it has to be converted right. To ascorbic acid. And the data for that conversion step is not as robust as one would like. And compared to other things like ascorbyl glucoside converts, we know that that converts. We don't know how well does this stuff convert. So you know, the data is a.

[Valerie George]

Little bit lacking compared to ascorbic acid. You know, I think that it, it's a little bit easier on the skin, especially if you have sensitive skin. But again, it does have that substitution and it has to be converted compared to other derivatives. Many sources in peer reviewed literature, yes, we do know how to read papers say it is the highest, provides the highest amount of ascorbic acid upon conversion amongst the vitamin C derivatives. So when you're looking at it in comparison, I guess it would be the most effective. And it probably makes sense because, you know, ingredients like sodium ascorbyl phosphate, magnesium, ascorbyl phosphate, which are popular derivatives, don't really penetrate the skin. There's very poor data for that.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. It's about the penetration. So hopefully that clarifies it. I think we did agree that it was one of the more promising of the derivatives.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, it's a great one to choose, easy to use, it's water soluble, you toss it in like sugar. You could improve penetration by adding propylene glycol, hexanediol glycerin, those kinds of things. Keep it optimum ph, lots of literature available on it. I think it's a good choice.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, but also remember, the information you get from suppliers of ingredients are marketing information. It's not necessarily science.

[Valerie George]

That's true. They have marketing departments too. Well let's answer some questions. Our first question comes to us from Louisa, a patron. Hi. I recently got a sunburn after 20 minutes in the southern California sun. I am vigilant about wearing sunscreen, but that day I decided to use a free product I got with a purchase. Glytone hydrolipid UV40 plus sunscreen. I didn't like the texture on my skin so I put my usual ELTA MD tinted sunscreen on top. I'm wondering if the layering negated the sunscreen of the top product. Also, how often do tinted sunscreens need to be reapplied? And do you recommend reapplying over clean skin or is it okay to reapply on the go over the product from earlier?

[Perry Romanowski]

Wow, these are very interesting questions. Now as far as getting the free product, as long as it has an SPF rating, you have to figure if it's a legitimate company, you have to figure that it has been tested for that value. So I don't think the fact that you got it free means it doesn't work. I'm sure it works. Now that you didn't like the texture, that's certainly reasonable because sun tunes are not always formulated. Great.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, the texture is really hit or miss and I think there's no one right. Sunscreen for everybody. Some people, I love the Eltamd products, you know, is it my favorite favorite? No. But some people can't stand it. Or Glytone. You know, surely some people say, wow, this is the best sunscreen on the planet. It feels amazing on my skin. So yeah, that's the really hard part. But you know, it's important. The way sunscreens work is they form and even film on sun skin. And so I think, you know, if you, I always apply two layers of sunscreen. Usually like I put it on first and in case I miss any spots, I apply a second if I'm, if I know I'm going out that day. But when you combine, could you run into trouble?

[Perry Romanowski]

I would think the fact that she ran into trouble is indicative of. Yes, that you can. And so what happens is if you're combining two different sunscreens, they might have two different film forming ingredients which might conflict with each other. And so if you're spreading the other sunscreen on and you're not, you're not completely covering the spots all over, you could disrupt the film of the one on the bottom and that could be a result in a sunburn, I guess.

[Valerie George]

I also would like to add the Ulta MD product is pretty Tinted. The tinted version is, I should say. And so I actually mix that one with a ELTA MD untinted, so like a half and half. And it's the same formula. Tinted, not tinted, I think. But I don't think that most people really put on an adequate coating of the tinted version.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right.

[Valerie George]

I always feel like an Oompa Loompa. If I forget and I just put it on, it's, you know, very tinted, which is great.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

I would also wonder like, you know, did you put the dose on to get the adequate amount? And then you go out in the SoCal sun, which there's no clouds in the sky, you're pretty exposed. UV index is usually pretty high. It's exacerbated by pollution. And you got burned. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes I even get burned out in the LA sun.

[Perry Romanowski]

Even with sunscreen on.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. So, you know, sunscreen is not always perfect, especially if you haven't applied enough because it's hard to apply enough. And when it's tinted, you probably will apply less than you than. Than would be recommended. But as far as how often do you need to be reapplied? You know, it's depends on the SPF that you've got, but.

[Valerie George]

And the FDA would say you need to apply tinted or not every two hours. That's what the FDA would say. Well, Perry, I did take a look at the glytone ingredient list, and this may explain a little bit why maybe she got burned. Now, I don't want to say glytones doing anything. They maybe had some good SPF testing. Maybe they're using some SPF boosters, but they're only using 2% titanium dioxide and 1% zinc oxide in their formula. I'm not an SPF expert, but I do know enough about them. I have clients who manufacture them. That's a pretty low amount, even if you were using a micronized SPF active and we're using boosters. Yikes.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, that's a little bit crazy. So, you know, not that they were unable to get the SPF value that is claimed, but yeah, that's quite a feat. I'm a little skeptical of those results.

[Valerie George]

So knowing this, that it is a light amount of SPF filter, and then, you know, maybe you don't put the full maximum dose of an ELTA MD tinted sunscreen over top. Do you think that could have contributed?

[Perry Romanowski]

I think that might have a lot to do with it.

[Valerie George]

Also, what about reapplying over clean skin? Or do you think it's okay to reapply over the product from earlier. I think it's okay to reapply over the product from earlier because, I mean, it's impractical to wash your face or remove makeup.

[Perry Romanowski]

I would agree with that. The challenges that you've got when you reapply, you have to reapply everywhere. And I could see it consumer not doing that because they're like, oh, well, I had some on there already. And so they might skip parts and might not be as thorough.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, well, Louisa, I'm sorry you got burned figuratively and literally by this initial product. I'm sorry you didn't like the texture, but I'll put this on my do not buy list. I don't know. I'm looking at it. I don't. Not probably not for me.

[Perry Romanowski]

But it's generally okay to put one sunscreen on top of the other as long as you spread it out properly. But it could cause a conflict with the two film formers.

[Valerie George]

All right, well, Louisa, hopefully you found this to be helpful and you just tossed the product.

[Perry Romanowski]

Next one comes to us from Lorena, from. From a patron. Thank you so much, Laurina, for supporting the show. Hey, friends. I loved the episode with Valerie and Sarah. Please do more. But after listening, I decided to go and get the L'Oreal Wonder Water. I put it in my shower and forgot to read the instructions until it was too late and I was shampooing my hair. I didn't have my contacts, so I couldn't do the read the tiny writing. I decided to just put it in my hair, starting with the roots and massage it all over. I did love it. Once I dried and styled my hair, then I looked up the instructions and very clearly said, do not use it on your scalp. Oops. Do you know why they would say that? My hair looked great? Anyway, I tried googling it and saw a lot of crazy reasons, including that it could be absorbed through the scalp. Well, somehow I got it in my mouth and I tasted it too, and I was trying to remove the COVID with my teeth, so now I'm really curious.

[Valerie George]

Oh, I hate that.

[Perry Romanowski]

Wait, you're opening bottles with your mouth and you get the product in there?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Some things are so hard to open in the shower, Especially the Beyonce secred products as secret as Mr. Cosmetic Chemist calls them. Sacred. I couldn't get them open in the shower. The induction seal was so tight. I was trying to use my teeth. I was trying to, like, stat. And I had to call Mr. Cosmetic Chemist in. He couldn't get it open wow, it's really tough. But, Lorena, thank you for loving the episode with cerebellum because I was so to check in to do my own solo episode. It was actually really fun talking about using products with another person because Perry doesn't use any Mr. Cosmetic Chemist. Actually, I think he's. He's getting more into them because he really liked the Blake Lively shampoo and conditioner. And he actually said, what is the product in the weird packaging? Because I really like it. It's too greasy for his hair. But I think he likes the fragrance. And once I told him it was Blake Lively's products, he loved it even more. But that's the extent of our product talk. So it was really great to be able to talk products. And it's cool to see that somebody went out and bought a product that I was super skeptical on that I tried myself and ended up liking. And Sarah Bellum also likes the Wonder Water, so that was pretty cool.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, well, so it was a little surprising to me that L'Oreal says don't use it on your scalp, but looking at this formula, it can understand it a little bit more because it's propylene glycol and alcohol are the first two ingredients. And certainly propylene glycol, if you don't rinse it all out, it's certainly stay in your hair and sort of weigh it down.

[Valerie George]

And they're also penetration enhancers and solvents so you can get some skin sensitivity. Additionally, I think I pointed out in the episode with cerebellum and maybe even past episodes episodes that this product has a really strong fragrance. And it's evident by the extensive list of fragrance allergens in a rinse off product. And when you have penetration enhancers and solvents and a lot of fragrance, and you have conditioning agents like cetrimonium chloride and behemonium chloride, they're probably putting this don't use on your scalp just out of an abundance of precaution to avoid irritation. So it's not that it'll do anything bad, but they just want to make sure you're okay. So I think it's all right that you put it on as long as you didn't notice anything. And I'm glad you love the look of your hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I do too. And as long as you rinsed it out too, I think that's just over an abundance of caution. But, you know, follow the directions that the supplier or that the manufacturer gives is always a good policy. But I, I think you're going to be okay there.

[Valerie George]

You know, Perry, I'm at the age where I'm starting to have a hard time reading things in the shower, and I'm like, man, all these brands are just making the font smaller or there's, like, not enough contrast. And I think it's me.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, well, I like to read novels in the shower, too, but the paper always gets wet.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my gosh.

[Perry Romanowski]

Okay, next question comes to us from Melissa. Melissa says, hi, beauty brains. I am an esthetician, and a client just told me that the use of blue light to treat acne was discovered after a correlation with the increase of blue light emitting devices and a decrease in acne was found. The only article I found online about the history of its use claims it was invented by a doctor in 1998. And, yes, this claim was on the doctor's own website. The claim seems somewhat plausible. So being the skeptical optimist that I am, I thought I would defer to my favorite experts for their insights. Thank you for being awesome and give all the porch kitties my love. Blue light. This does seem like a dubious claim. 1998. Blue light's been around longer than that, right?

[Valerie George]

I think so. I mean, did those really old computers that had, like, that ran on dos that had, like, a black screen with green font? Did those emit blue light?

[Perry Romanowski]

Some, but, I mean, like, light therapy has been used since, like, the 1960s for, you know, tissues and such. So, you know, I'm not sure that somebody in 1998 figured out, oh, blue light is the one to go. I saw in the 1990s, there was a lot of research about blue lights and the effectiveness on acne.

[Valerie George]

As early as 1987, there was a study about c. Acnes used to be called P. Acnes way back in the day. But back in 1987, in nature, they found that C. Acnes. P. Acnes, actually uptakes blue light and undergoes photo destruction. So this goes way back.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, Right. So it actually was approved by the FDA. In the 2000s, they started approving devices for blue light therapy.

[Valerie George]

Wow.

[Perry Romanowski]

And suggesting that it was an effective anti acne treatment. So it's, you know, it's this actually a treatment that's been around for a while. I don't think the doctor on the website from 1988 was the person who invented it. But, you know, lots of people get credit for inventing things that maybe somebody else did also.

[Valerie George]

Do you think, though, the popularity of the, like, the fact that, oh, blue light treats acne. Do you think the popularity of it has only come up now and people think it's a new thing because we use all these blue light emitting devices, but really the research goes back to like the 80s and the 70s.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. That we're just blue light stuff is in our face a lot more now because we have all these devices that. When did an iPhone came out, like what, 2012, 2007? Yeah, I think it's reasonable. I wonder if there's a connection between all of these blue light things and people having less acne. People don't have less acne now, do they?

[Valerie George]

I don't think so. And also, what about all the damage that blue light purportedly does to skin? I mean, within the last like seven years you go to shows and all these raw material suppliers have data on blue light protection because it's so terrible for your skin. None of them bring up that it's beneficial for acne reduction.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right. So I don't think the fact that people are using computers more has led to less acne. The blue light technology has been around for a lot of years, probably started in the 1960s and it has been approved by the FDA as a treatment. So it actually, as far as the FDA is concerned, it actually does work.

[Valerie George]

All right, well our next question is an audio question.

[C]

Hello, Valerie and Perry, this is Lucy from the uk. I've been binge listening to your podcast ever since I discovered it and you've become my favourite new source of info about how to take care of my skin and hair. I noticed on an old episode of the Beauty Brains, episode 292, Valerie mentioned that pre treating your hair, which I assume is a reference to pre shampoo treatments, might be ideal if you have thinning hair. Could you elaborate on this? I've been using bond building pre shampoo treatments to mitigate the damage from bleaching my hair. I also have damage from using heat tools, but I'm trying to use heatless hair styling instead. Now I also use minoxidil as I have some areas affected by tension alopecia from wearing extensions. In the past. My hair is very thin, fine and straight and I use a volumizing shampoo and conditioner along with heat protectant blow dry spray for fine hair. If I'm blow drying, I put Philip Kingsley bond repair oil on the ends of my hair and basically do everything I can to try and reverse the damage. But I'm wondering if I'm doing more harm than good by using a pre treatment, which means my hair Is wet for longer. And as we all now know, water is damaging to hair. Thanks again and thank you so much for all your work on our behalf. My cat, Pom pom Pat, sends her love to your kitties.

[Perry Romanowski]

Pom Pom the cat.

[Valerie George]

I love it. Oh, I love her voice. Can you play this question to me every night so I can fall asleep? I love the accent. I love. She must be a professional voice person, because. Voiceover person. Because I. Oh, I love it. Well, thank you for listening to the show. So we had a hard time at first. We were like, oh, let's look at the transcript. What did I say? And then we realized episode 292 was so long ago. And you really have been binge listening to the show.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, for sure. Pretty soon she's going to ask questions about Randy.

[Valerie George]

Well, hopefully she knows I'm. Well. If she's going backwards, she'll know I'm not Randy. So that'll be good. Because some people still do call me Randy.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

But fewer and fewer. Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

All right. This idea of the pre treatment. Do you think she's causing excessive damage or extra damage by using a pre treatment?

[Valerie George]

Well, that episode is a long time ago. It's many years ago. I think what I was saying was there is quite a bit of pre shampoo treatments on the market to help rebuild bonds in hair. So, for example, Coco and Eve has one, this bond building pre shampoo treatment that takes bond repair to the next level for dramatic reduction in damage. And the reality is, if you're building new bonds in hair, you are strengthening hair. And if you have really fine hair, hair that has a very small diameter, or you have hair that is very brittle, in my professional opinion, the last thing you want to do is continue to add bond building to it. Because hair breakage is not just a chemistry issue, It's a physics issue. And so if you have something that's very stiff but also has a very fine fiber diameter, it's like breaking angel hair pasta over a pot of boiling water. Very easy to do snaps with very little stress and you toss it right in. So I think my reference was not into. Not necessarily that you shouldn't do pre shampoo treatments. I think when you're doing bond building pre shampoo treatments, you want to be very careful. The best thing you can do. I love that you're actually using a bond repair oil, because if you have fine hair, the best thing you can do to help reduce breakage is to condition it, which you're doing, and also lubricate it. Because anything that is applying stress to the hair is just going to glide down the hair fiber versus catching or dragging and creating that physical stress to break the hair. So I would say maybe skip the bond builders and see how you're doing. I know that sometimes if people use too many bond builders or if they're using a professional bond builder over, a professional bond builder like application over application, people have complained of hair breakage. So I probably would see how it goes without that. Keep using your thermal protectant. That's also really great because he is so terrible for your hair. And keep using the oils and keep using very lightweight conditioning things. Maybe look for serums or treatments for the hair that have polyquaternium 37 in them. That's very lightweight, not going to weigh your hair down. And it's also going to create that lubrication to stop breakage from happening. So that would be my advice. And I think that's more in reference to what I was saying. Also, let's say you're not using a bond building pre shampoo treatment. Sometimes pre shampoos are really heavy in conditioning and oily and they can be hard to rinse from the hair. So I may have also been referencing that. And so if you have really fine, brittle, thinning hair, you don't want to put something like thick, gunky, oily, pasty in the hair that's like really hard to get out because then you have to use a lot of mechanical action and a lot of hot water to get it out of the hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

And a lot of shampoo.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. What you could do if you're looking for an extra dose of conditioning is just put a conditioner on the middle to the ends of the hair, avoid your scalps, something really light. And then you can kind of shampoo the base. And that might also help your hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

Okay, looks like we have time for one more. Well, a series of one mores. This comes to us from a patron, Miri. She says. Hello, dear beauty brains, my name is Miri and I'm a chemistry student from Germany who wants to pursue a career in cosmetic chemistry. I love your podcast and of course I have a few questions for you. First one, when can I call a product a dupe of another product? What do you think there, Valerie?

[Valerie George]

I think you can call a product a dupe for a couple reasons. One, it mirrors the essence or the vibe or what the product is supposed to do pretty closely.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

So it doesn't necessarily have to have a one to one ingredient list, but it can have a Similar feel. So for example, I mentioned the Cocoa and Eve pre bond building shampoo. Maybe that is a dupe of an Olaplex product. I'm not saying it is, but if Olaplex had a pre shampoo bonding treatment, you could say it's a dupe. If they make the same claims like seven times stronger hair or whatnot. If it had an exact match ingredient list, you could also call it a dupe. But I feel like still you need to call out the marketing claims because you need to call attention to the fact that you are probably a lower cost product. I don't know of many really high end brands that are duping cheaper things. I think it's usually lower cost goes the other way. Yeah, they're lower cost brands are duping really expensive things. And so you want to call attention to somehow whether it's a direct call out. If you like Olaplex, you'll like this. Right. Or you just mirror the claims and then so therefore you need the claims, essence and vibe of the other products.

[Perry Romanowski]

I just want to back up just a second here in case people don't know. When we say dupe, a dupe is short for duplicate. Oh yeah, that's right. As a formulator, what you're trying to do is you have a, there's a product on the market and you want to create a formula that essentially copies the performance, the look and the feel of that product. As Valerie says, you don't necessarily have to use exactly all the same ingredients, but what you're shooting for is to have something that looks and feels and performs the same way as that product. Often this is done by lower cost brands like say a Suave, where they'll do a dupe of a salon high end brand and they'll try to match the viscosity, the fragrance and the foaminess. And then they will kind of call that out on there and you know, call them suave professional or something like that.

[Valerie George]

Suave professional, right.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. Okay, so that's dupe, but there is no, no specific rule.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, there's no specific rule. And I'll also say that you can have an exact match on an ingredient list and it doesn't meet the performance. So that's why I'm saying the ingredient list, it would be great if it matched. But a lot of times, you know, we've tried to knock stuff off in the lab all the time. You can match the ingredient list and it's still just not right. So that's why I say still think the Dupe aspect is it was inspired by another product and their performance and the marketing attributes are pretty close.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. Okay. Miri has a couple more questions, and since she's a patron, we answer those right away. So here we go. Is there a difference between men's and women's skincare products? And usually the fragrance is different, but.

[Valerie George]

Usually the fragrance is different. I think the texture is also different because I used to actually work at a men's brand many years ago, and I think men don't like greasy, heavy textures, whereas women do sometimes appreciate them. Especially like, I'm thinking in a night cream or maybe even in a sunscreen. A woman is willing to overlook maybe a greasy, heavier, occlusive texture because they know the benefits. It's going to seal all the water in and it's going to be really rich and nourishing. And when I worked at the men's skincare brand, which, by the way, was geared more towards the market where men were really interested in taking care of themselves, so they were using a lot of skincare products, they still didn't like greasy texture. So they want something lightweight, not anything that they feel like they have to wash their fingers afterwards on. Something where it could just like, really be nice, disappear into the skin and not be greasy.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, but I think there's not really a general rule. It's going to depend on the brand and what they've tested with their consumer groups. And, like, some men might not care about greasiness, some might not like it at all. But I don't think there's any one rule that says men's are this way and women's are this way. We're using the same ingredients, just kind of adjusting the esthetics a bit. Next question. How can hypochlorous acid, H O C L be incorporated into a skincare routine?

[Valerie George]

Well, we've talked about this ingredient before, and I don't really know if people should be using this ingredient for a couple of reasons. One, it's a disinfectant. And just in general, disinfectants I don't think should be incorporated into skin care. That's my personal opinion. They're not discriminatory. They're meaning they're not targeting opportunistic pathogens on the skin. They're just targeting everything on the skin. And so a lot of people use them hypochlorous acid treatments for, like, acne or mostly for acne, I think. But I. I just feel like it's something that shouldn't be on Skin. The second reason I think it shouldn't be incorporated is that it's not stable. And I think you have to have special equipment to generate hypochlorous acid. It's not like an ingredient you just toss in. It actually is a. I think, catalyzed by electrolysis. I think. I'm not too familiar with the reaction, but I do know it requires specific equipment and it readily decomposes. So one could even argue, do you even have any hypochlorous acid by the time it gets to you, the consumer, and so why bother, right?

[Perry Romanowski]

Good point. All right, and finally, she has one more question. How long should I ideally wait between skincare steps? So actives, moisturizer, sunscreen. I'd appreciate if you could answer any of those questions. Thank you in advance, Mary. Okay. Waiting between skincare steps. You mean there's more than one step that you should do with skin care?

[Valerie George]

How long, Perry, do you wait between multiple shampoo applications?

[Perry Romanowski]

Between multiple shampoo applications? I'd say 24 hours.

[Valerie George]

No, I meant, like, for your hair, for your body, for your teeth. Oh, for your clothes.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Oh, but you don't use it on your teeth, right?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, no, I use. I use toothpaste. You know, I don't leave home without it.

[Valerie George]

Oh, goodness. Okay. Well, waiting between application of actives moisturizer, sunscreen. I think it depends on the product. So sometimes, you know, if I'm doing, you know, a more intensive routine than just washing and moisturizing, I wait. Like, if it's toner, I don't wait at all. It's still damp. I might apply the moisturizer, and then I might wait to apply the next product on top of that. Because when you have a moisturizer that's kind of sitting topically on your skin, I personally just don't like the feeling of applying another product that's kind of mixing in with the moisturizer. I like to wait until the moisturizer is, like, kind of set. And sometimes when you. If a product is wet and then you're putting another wet product on top of it, you might get, like, a little interaction. So sometimes, especially if there's, like, gums or thickeners involved, you might get balling of the products because there's an incompatibility. So if you wait until they're dry, it at least mitigates that. Some products, it doesn't bother me. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it does. So I really would probably say, you know, if you're going to put a toner on, keep your skin damp and then put your next product on. But otherwise, to me, honestly, it's just preference.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I think it's mostly just an aesthetic thing. There isn't not like an ideal for everyone. It's like ideal for you, but there's no answer that is applicable to everyone. Speaking of applicable, you hear that music?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. That's all we have time for everyone. Thanks for listening.

[Perry Romanowski]

Hey, if you get a chance, can you head over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you do podcasts and leave us a review that's gonna help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer?

[Valerie George]

Speaking of questions, if you have a question, we love audio questions. The one we had today was so beautiful, Perry, please send it to me. If you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com it's that easy.

[Perry Romanowski]

The beauty brains are also on Patreon. You might have noticed that we didn't have any ads in this podcast, which I appreciate podcasts without ads. And if you do too, it's not free to make these podcasts. So if you want to help support the show, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. Also, while you're there, you can ask questions because we have a higher priority to questions asked by our patrons.

[Valerie George]

Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're hebeautybrains2018. On X, we're hebeautybrainS. We have a Facebook page and a TikTok.

[Perry Romanowski]

It looks like all the kids are going over to Blue Sky. Maybe we should get on Blue sky now.

[Valerie George]

I haven't heard of Blue Sky. What is that?

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, well, that's where everyone. All the people abandoning X and Twitter are moving over to Blue Sky. So we're gonna have to get Blue sky, now that I mentioned it.

[Valerie George]

Well, I mean, just to squat on the page. Right, because we're not actually going to do anything on it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, no, in the coming year, we're going to be social media crazies.

[Valerie George]

We are working on our resolutions already. I love it. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[Perry Romanowski]

Thanks, everyone.

[Valerie George]

Kittens.