Episode 385 - Air drying, growth factors and more

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beauty Brains - Episode 385: Air Drying, Growth Factors, and More

Release Date: January 15, 2025

Hosts: Valerie George and Perry Romanoski

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Introduction and Light Banter (00:00 - 07:56)

Valerie George kicks off Episode 385 of The Beauty Brains alongside co-host Perry Romanoski. The duo begins with casual conversation about Perry’s recent trip to Playa del Carmen, Mexico. Perry humorously recounts gaining seven pounds during his vacation due to indulging in food and drinks:

Perry Romanoski [01:21]: "In fact, I weighed myself before and after, and I came home with seven more pounds than I left."

They discuss activities in Mexico, including watching football and enjoying karaoke, and touch on Perry's return troubles with his cat, Ted's increased affection.

Valerie shares personal anecdotes about living in California and Texas, addressing wildfires near her previous residence and the challenges of relocating, such as dealing with tornadoes and unstable soil in Texas. She reflects on surviving an EF4 tornado nine years ago, marveling that her house remained intact:

Valerie George [07:23]: "Our house was still standing after living in it. I would venture to guess it should have been toppled over."

Beauty News: Celebrity Grooming Brands and Industry Studies (07:56 - 16:20)

Valerie and Perry segue into beauty news, highlighting Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson's launch of his grooming brand, Papatouille, available at Target. They humorously note the irony of The Rock, a famously bald individual, promoting hair care products:

Valerie George [08:07]: "The Rock doesn't have hair."

Perry Romanoski [10:01]: "They like have... they have people for that."

They critique a study published in Cosmetics Design that claims low molecular weight collagen peptides offer anti-aging benefits. Both hosts express skepticism regarding the study’s validity, citing potential conflicts of interest and methodological flaws. Perry points out:

Perry Romanoski [10:44]: "They have self-reported satisfaction. So over 90% of the participants in the experimental group reported satisfaction."

Valerie emphasizes the importance of peer review and questions the reliability of open-access publications funded by brands:

Valerie George [12:01]: "The fact there's a registered mark appearing in the abstract and in the study. I just, you know, to me it's like, well, they weren't going to publish it if it were bad data..."

Audience Questions: Growth Factors, Minoxidil, and Hair Care (16:20 - 43:49)

1. Topical Growth Factors in Skincare

Megan’s Question (16:20): How effective are topical growth factors in skincare products for increasing collagen production and minimizing fine lines and wrinkles?

Valerie and Perry delve into the efficacy of growth factors. Valerie remains skeptical, recounting experiences with dermatologists overpromising on growth factors’ benefits. She highlights regulatory pushback, referencing an FDA warning to a Beverly Hills dermatologist for making drug claims about growth factors:

Valerie George [16:45]: "There are studies that show they, you know, in vitro, maybe in vivo a little bit, they can improve... help stimulate hair growth because they stimulate your cells, helping with repair. But I just think in real life, you got to be a little skeptical."

Perry echoes the skepticism, explaining the challenges large molecules like growth factors face in penetrating the skin to reach the dermis:

Perry Romanoski [19:14]: "If it doesn't get down to the dermis, it just sticks here in the stratum corneum... it's not going to do anything."

Despite doubts, Valerie concedes that the serum discussed is affordable ($15.50) and may offer hydration benefits due to ingredients like butylene glycol and glycerin:

Valerie George [22:08]: "...for $15.50, Megan, I would give it a try."

2. Low-Dose Oral Minoxidil for Women's Hair Loss

Tegan’s Question (23:37): Can low-dose minoxidil pills effectively treat hair loss in women?

Perry reviews a 2021 study from the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, noting that oral minoxidil shows promise with about two-thirds of participants experiencing hair growth. However, he cautions that efficacy varies and emphasizes consulting a healthcare professional before starting:

Perry Romanoski [25:44]: "This is something you should talk to your doctor about before you try."

Valerie shares anecdotal success stories but remains mindful of potential side effects like hypertrichosis (excessive hair growth), lightheadedness, and fluid retention:

Valerie George [26:25]: "1.7% people have hypertrichosis... 0.3% periorbital edema."

3. Air Drying vs. Blow Drying Hair

Cassie’s Question (27:18): Does air drying cause more damage to the scalp than blow drying, and how can potential damage be prevented?

Valerie references a past discussion on this topic, critiquing a study that suggested air drying might be more harmful than blow drying. They analyze the study’s methodology, which involved drying hair at various distances and durations, concluding that moist hair could theoretically damage the hair fiber if excessively wet for prolonged periods. However, both hosts question the study's real-world applicability:

Perry Romanoski [35:56]: "I'm not sure how much that study applies to real life."

Valerie offers practical advice, such as using thermal protectants and blow drying techniques that minimize damage:

Valerie George [35:04]: "Just use a freaking thermal protectant."

4. Fragrance-Free, Lightweight Hair Care for Fine Hair

Avery’s Question (36:09): What fragrance-free hair care products can thoroughly clean fine, low-density, curly hair without weighing it down, and what conditioners can detangle without causing shedding?

Valerie and Perry discuss the challenges of formulating effective fragrance-free products. They note that ingredients like glycerin in shampoos primarily affect texture rather than providing moisturizing benefits, as glycerin rinses out easily:

Perry Romanoski [37:58]: "It just rinses down the drain. It doesn't really belong in shampoos, quite frankly."

Valerie suggests focusing conditioner application on the mid-lengths and ends rather than the scalp to prevent buildup. She recommends lightweight emulsifiers like stearamidopropyl dimethylamine and cleansing conditioners for fine hair:

Valerie George [42:25]: "Focus it on the middle to ends of the hair... look for something like stearamidopropyl dimethylamine..."

5. Dark Spot Serums and Pigmentation Treatments

Avery’s Second Question (43:18): Does Caudalie Dark Spot Serum effectively reduce pigmentation, and what are affordable, gentle alternatives available?

The hosts evaluate Caudalie’s viniferine ingredient, which claims to inhibit tyrosinase more effectively than Vitamin C in vitro:

Perry Romanoski [46:20]: "They have viniferin... it's supposed to inhibit tyrosinase 62 times more effectively."

However, Valerie points out the limitations of in vitro studies and the high cost of the serum ($82 per bottle). They recommend more affordable options like The Ordinary’s tranexamic acid serums and Vitamin C derivatives that are less irritating:

Valerie George [49:36]: "You could do a vitamin C ester like tetrahexidosyl ascorbate... something like that."

Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement (43:49 - End)

Valerie and Perry wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to submit questions via email or Patreon. They promote their social media channels and express gratitude to their audience for supporting the show.

Perry Romanoski [50:21]: "Head on over to patreon.com/thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level."

Valerie adds a light-hearted note about progressing their social media presence:

Valerie George [51:16]: "On our page for the last episode, first one of the year, which is a huge improvement because we made zero last year."

They sign off with their signature sign-off:

Valerie George [51:47]: "Be brainy about your beauty."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Topical Growth Factors: While marketed as anti-aging miracles, growth factors in skincare may not penetrate the skin effectively to deliver claimed benefits. Affordable options might offer hydration but not significant anti-aging effects.

2. Oral Minoxidil for Hair Loss: Promising for some women, oral minoxidil shows efficacy in hair regrowth but comes with potential side effects. Consultation with healthcare professionals is advised.

3. Air Drying vs. Blow Drying: Contrary to some studies, normal air drying does not inherently damage hair more than blow drying. Proper blow drying techniques and using thermal protectants can minimize damage.

4. Fragrance-Free Hair Care: Crafting effective fragrance-free products is challenging due to ingredient limitations. Focusing conditioners on hair ends and choosing lightweight formulations can benefit individuals with fine hair.

5. Dark Spot Treatments: High-cost serums like Caudalie’s may offer theoretical benefits, but in vitro claims don't always translate to real-world efficacy. Affordable alternatives with proven ingredients are recommended.

6. Consumer Awareness: Skepticism towards brand-funded studies and an understanding of ingredient functionalities are crucial for making informed beauty product choices.

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Notable Quotes:

• Perry Romanoski [01:21]: "In fact, I weighed myself before and after, and I came home with seven more pounds than I left."

• Valerie George [07:23]: "Our house was still standing after living in it. I would venture to guess it should have been toppled over."

• Perry Romanoski [10:44]: "They have self-reported satisfaction. So over 90% of the participants in the experimental group reported satisfaction."

• Valerie George [16:45]: "But I just think in real life, you got to be a little skeptical."

• Perry Romanoski [19:14]: "If it doesn't get down to the dermis, it just sticks here in the stratum corneum... it's not going to do anything."

• Valerie George [22:08]: "...for $15.50, Megan, I would give it a try."

• Valerie George [35:04]: "Just use a freaking thermal protectant."

• Perry Romanoski [37:58]: "It just rinses down the drain. It doesn't really belong in shampoos, quite frankly."

• Valerie George [42:25]: "Focus it on the middle to ends of the hair... look for something like stearamidopropyl dimethylamine..."

• Perry Romanoski [46:20]: "They have viniferin... it's supposed to inhibit tyrosinase 62 times more effectively."

• Valerie George [49:36]: "You could do a vitamin C ester like tetrahexidosyl ascorbate..."

• Valerie George [51:47]: "Be brainy about your beauty."

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For more insights and to submit your beauty questions, visit thebeautybrainsml.com or join the conversation on Patreon.

Transcript

[Valerie George]

Hi, I'm Valerie, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetics industry. This is episode 385. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Peri Romanoski. Hi, Perry.

[Perry Romanoski]

Hola, Valerie.

[Valerie George]

Hola, Perry.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yes. Hola, Valerie. Yes. I'm just back from Mexico.

[Valerie George]

Welcome back. On today's show, we're going to cover a lot of questions, including how effective are growth factors in topical products? Can low dose minoxidil pills treat hair loss in women? Does air drying cause more damage than blow drying? What shampoo and conditioner won't weigh down fine hair? And can a dark spot serum work to reduce pain, pigmentation? But first, our inane chit chat. How was Mexico, Valerie?

[Perry Romanoski]

Mexico was not relaxing. You know, you go on vacations.

[Valerie George]

What? I thought you were supposed to go relax.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right, but you know what? When I go on trips with my wife, those are relaxing. You know, we hang out. We go. You go out trips with your buddies, that's not relaxing because, you know, you're. You're going out all the time, and then it's a competition to see who can stay out. The latest. It was just.

[Valerie George]

And I bet there was some imbibing involved.

[Perry Romanoski]

There was a little too much imbibing. In fact, I weighed myself before and after, and I came home with seven more pounds than I left.

[Valerie George]

Well, I don't think that was all from food, was it?

[Perry Romanoski]

Food and, you know, drink and, you know, it was a fun place. Playa del Carmen, which is near. It's near the Gulf of Mexico, near Cancun.

[Valerie George]

Okay. I mean, did you guys do any, like, guy activities?

[Perry Romanoski]

We watched football.

[Valerie George]

Oh, okay.

[Perry Romanoski]

We found a karaoke place. That was fun.

[Valerie George]

All right.

[Perry Romanoski]

Fun for me, anyway.

[Valerie George]

But you guys didn't do, like, golfing or anything like that? Any paper, scissors, rock tournaments?

[Perry Romanoski]

No tournaments. Although the guy who won the tournament was there, so. He was there.

[Valerie George]

Was it his, like, prize for winning the tournament? You took him to Mexico?

[Perry Romanoski]

I told him it was that. Yeah, but no, it wasn't that. You know, there's lots of treatments and wacky stuff you can get in Mexico. But I saw those fish baths. You know, the ones where you sit in a spa and put your feet in with it. Seems kind of cruel to me. To the fish. Although I guess not any crueler than, like, a fish tank, but seems kind of a strange treatment.

[Valerie George]

Well, I don't know if the Fish know any better, and perhaps they are happy sucking the dead skin off your body.

[Perry Romanoski]

I mean, they do it naturally, so I guess they're good with it.

[Valerie George]

Happy fish. They're happy fish.

[Perry Romanoski]

I mean, they're better than starving fish, right?

[Valerie George]

That's true.

[Perry Romanoski]

So there's a. I don't know if.

[Valerie George]

I would ever do one. I don't even like being in the ocean with fish swimming around me. So I don't think I would put my body or feet or hands into a fish bath and have the fish go at it. Seems kind of fetishy.

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, there seems to be a lot of people do it because there's a lot of these shops.

[Valerie George]

Wow.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, but. So it's. It's an interesting place. But, you know, I got back from vacation and my cat just will not stop being near me. Like, he just.

[Valerie George]

Oh, Ted misses you.

[Perry Romanoski]

I guess that's it. I don't know. I feed him. I do this stuff. I feed him, I pet him. He, like, slept next to me yesterday, which is strange because he usually just sleeps in a chair near me. Near me. Or he, you know, sleeps on my wife's side, but somehow he was on my side. So it's surprising to me, the cat. A cat can miss you like that.

[Valerie George]

Oh, that's really sweet. I wish I had a cat that missed me like that. But they're all gone.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. Oh, no. That's right. Well, except when you're trying to put together the script for the upcoming Beauty Brain show.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Then it's like, ted, get out. I don't care that you love me. Well, I know how it feels with Butch and Frank because they literally would climb inside me if they could. They can't be close enough to me. And it's 247 and, you know, they just hyperventilate if I, you know, I'm moving around. It's really sweet. But also it's like, come on, guys, you're giving me bruises from jumping all over me. They're very big.

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, I am happy to be back. Speaking of back, I saw there's all those fires out in la and I thought of you. Was that anywhere near you used to live?

[Valerie George]

Well, one started near where I used to live. And they evacuated a portion of the area I lived in. And they put out the fire very quickly. I guess a homeless person had been walking around with a flamethrower or something like that. That's what I heard. Yeah. So they put all their resources on it because in one area of where I lived, not where I Lived, but it's very upscale and then you have hidden hills behind it, which is where all the celebrity mega mansions are and they don't want that burning down. But I used to also live in Brentwood and the fires are nearing there and it's very sad. I have friends who are affected. I have customers who are affected. A customer lost their home.

[Perry Romanoski]

Oh, no.

[Valerie George]

And yeah. And you know, it's been one year since we moved to Texas and there's a lot of hard things about living here. It's very different from la and I miss LA a lot, but I definitely don't miss this with poor air quality and ash falling everywhere and just.

[Perry Romanoski]

And concern about, you know, low water because of the drought and such. So, yeah, it's a tough time to be in California right now.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. The politics of water is very complicated in California as well. So yeah, it's very unfortunate. And if any of our listeners are out in LA and are impacted, I'm thinking of you.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, I hope they're all doing all right. Now you're in Texas. Not a lot of wildfires there, but it's been an entire year.

[Valerie George]

It has. Time has gone so fast, hasn't it?

[Perry Romanoski]

It has for sure.

[Valerie George]

And there's not many wildfires, but there's tornadoes thick. There's sinking homes because the soil is so shifty here. You don't realize how crooked Texas is till you actually come to move here and you're like, wait, why is the floor feel like it's a fun house? Or why are the sidewalks so jagged? Or why is this house tilted? It's been. Been very interesting. We did have a tornado warning.

[Perry Romanoski]

Wow.

[Valerie George]

Earlier this year, which freaked Mr. Cosmetic Chemist out. And I was trying to stay calm, but I was like, the sky is green and that's not a good sign. So. But no, overall it's been good. We're happy to be here.

[Perry Romanoski]

Being growing up in like tornado alley, my town of Lamont was hit by tornadoes. You do kind of come to realize that it's getting actually hit by a tornado is a low probability event. Despite what that new Twisters movie shows.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanoski]

They go there for two weeks and they get like these mega twisters every day. Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanoski]

So ridiculous.

[Valerie George]

Well, my house and my neighborhood actually was leveled by an EF4 tornado nine years ago.

[Perry Romanoski]

Wow. Wow.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Our house was still standing after living in it. I would venture to guess it should have been toppled over. Yeah. But everyone else is kind of built up new around us, so that's been kind of interesting. But what are the odds it'll happen twice, Knock on wood.

[Perry Romanoski]

Probably. Probably not that high. Well, we're glad that your house is still standing and you have the ability to record this show. So let's move on to beauty news.

[Valerie George]

I don't really have a news story per se, but remember last year when the Rock launched Papatouille, his grooming brand, and it's in Target. It's pretty affordable.

[Perry Romanoski]

The Rock being Dwayne Johnson, the guy.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. And I actually believe at one point you had predicted this, that he would come out with something a long time ago.

[Perry Romanoski]

I think a couple years ago. But you know, you ever notice he plays like the same character in every movie?

[Valerie George]

He just shows up to the set as himself.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right, Exactly. So he's got a brand now.

[Valerie George]

It's out in stores. And it never really occurred to me until I saw online that someone posted a picture of the shelf display in the store. Yeah, he has hair care as part of his brand. The Rock doesn't have hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

He does not. Another famous bald guy hawking hair products.

[Valerie George]

Well, what's really funny is this is why I'm bringing it up again. Because, you know, we've talked about the launch before in the Shelf Talker, which is the little sign that appears next to the products. It's called a shelf talker. It says an expertly crafted plan, plant derived formula that nourishes and strengthens your hair. Obviously Papatouille doesn't listen to the beauty brains because plant derived formulas are all the rage with lawsuits. Sure. But the second part of the Shelf Talker says my hair would have loved this. Two in one. Dwayne Johnson.

[Perry Romanoski]

Oh, boy.

[Valerie George]

So that's pretty funny because I guess other people were like, wait, he doesn't have hair? And he acknowledges if he had hair, he would have liked the shampoo.

[Perry Romanoski]

I guess you could predict that. I mean, what else are you going to predict if you're selling a product that does.

[Valerie George]

What did you see?

[Perry Romanoski]

That does actually remind me though of the CEO of my old company, Completely bald.

[Valerie George]

Oh, good.

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, you know, corporate America. So I guess he didn't use the products that we made. But that's fine.

[Valerie George]

Maybe he used him as body wash. Probably not.

[Perry Romanoski]

I mean, he probably had people for that. I mean, the guy is a hundreds of millions of dollars worth guy. So I don't know. What do the really, really rich people use?

[Valerie George]

Body washers. Not body wash. That's right.

[Perry Romanoski]

They like have.

[Valerie George]

Well, I used to work with someone who they knew, someone who had bathed L. Ron Hubbard. So body washers are a real thing.

[Perry Romanoski]

Oh, well, I bet this guy had a body washer. All right. I saw an article published in Cosmetics Design, which is an industry thing, but the headline got me because it said a study validates anti aging benefits of low molecular weight collagen peptides.

[Valerie George]

Who funded this study? Sounds really fishy to me.

[Perry Romanoski]

Oh, is that your first question? No. Essentially. Let me, let me go through what they say. This brand, this Col Insta lmw, they have this supplementation and they did a placebo controlled randomized study comparing their 2.5mg supplementation of a collagen peptides versus a placebo. And they studied 80 healthy women age 30 years and older. One group got the supplement, one group got the placebo and they found after six weeks the people who got the treatment had a 46 reduction. 40%. 46% reduction in wrinkle volume, 44% reduction in wrinkle area and 9% decrease in wrinkle depth. I mean.

[Valerie George]

This seems like hogwash.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. And it said it had limited impact on skin elasticity, blah, blah, blah. But they did get it published in Cosmetics, which I think is a. I.

[Valerie George]

Believe that's a Brazilian journal, right?

[Perry Romanoski]

I think so. Journal Cosmetics. Yes, I think you are correct. So it's also an open access journal. So I think that kind of impacts on how you get published in there.

[Valerie George]

Well, just the fact that it's a brand who published their study.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

The fact that there's a registered mark appearing in the abstract and in the study. I just, you know, to me it's like, well, they weren't going to publish it if it were bad data and maybe there's data that wasn't favorable that they didn't share. Right?

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

But I don't know. How great was this study? I think it's a kind of a small sample size. I think it's a small duration of time. You know, you can't drink your way to skin hydration, so how could you supplement your way to fewer wrinkles? I'm just a bit skeptical about it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Also, two of the authors were employees of Viscofan Bioengineering which is part of the manufacturer there. So they had self reported satisfaction. So over 90% of the participants in the experimental group reported satisfaction. However, subjective assessments are susceptible to placebo effects. I mean, they said it was placebo controlled, but does it. The placebo tastes different and such. I'm just not sure I actually buy this. They have this notion of why does this work? And they are saying that because they have this is really short chain collagen supplements that can bypass the digestive system and go where and go into the skin and that theoretically prompts more collagen production. I don't know.

[Valerie George]

But if you had an increase in collagen production, you also plausibly would see an increase in skin elasticity.

[Perry Romanoski]

You would.

[Valerie George]

And that's one aspect of it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. And they did not see that. So one to be skeptical of. So that's my feeling on supplements that you could be skeptical studies that are published by, are funded by a company be skeptical of. But I also am interested in this whole phenomenon of this industry magazine sort of uncritically publishing the results of treatments like this. And you know, who's their audience here? They like young scientists are going to read this and they're just going to see the headline and say, oh, that's true. Or marketing people in our industry. It kind of bugs me that people that's articles like this can get published in industry magazines without some sort of, I don't know, skepticism or doubt about the reality of it or, you know, there should be some, some other side here and there just isn't.

[Valerie George]

Well, I think that's the importance of peer review and I don't know if this is a peer reviewed journal or whatnot. Sometimes open access is right. You know, we've gone over this on the show and had had a lot of audience feedback on it. But it's tough because they did do the study. Presumably that's the data that they got.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

I have no idea who's looking at it and verifying everything. But it also goes to show that like not every study is a great study. Right. And it's just one study in a big, you know, world of other studies that have been done about collagen peptides that aren't super, super favorable.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. And this is a pilot study that leaves open a lot of questions which the marketing people of this product will just, you know, ignore those questions and then they'll head right on. I would have liked to see the journal that published the news article about this raise some of those questions. But they, they never get to. It just becomes like a PR for their company, which I guess some magazines are just that.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. Well, let's answer some beauty questions. We did not have any Patreon questions this week, which is pretty amazing because usually our patrons are so eager to get their questions in.

[Perry Romanoski]

But we do have a ton of patrons and we appreciate that they keep the show going. But we do get a lot of questions that are non patrons. And here's the first one comes to us from Megan. She says the Ordinary is introducing a new serum that has three different growth factors that claim to increase collagen production and minimize fine lines and wrinkles. How effective are topical growth factors for this purpose, Megan? Well, thanks for that question, Megan. She actually submitted it through our. We have a link, a form linked in the show notes. So if you have questions, you can post it there. Although we prefer it you go through Patreon because.

[Valerie George]

Or preferred. Or prefer you send in an audio question. Right, that's my preferred so that Perry doesn't play these annoying AI voices.

[Perry Romanoski]

I haven't done that all year.

[Valerie George]

Hey, it's only been a couple weeks.

[Perry Romanoski]

That's right.

[Valerie George]

You have to start somewhere.

[Perry Romanoski]

All right, what is this topical growth product that she's. This new serum. What is. What is she talking about here?

[Valerie George]

Well, the Ordinary is known for taking an ingredient, using it at a really high concentration, keeping the formula very simple and allowing you to gain a lot of benefits. And so the product is a 15% growth factor serum. 15% is a lot of growth factors. And I don't know if it's a 15% solution of growth factors or, you know, 15% total growth factors in the formula. I don't think it's that because they wouldn't be able to afford it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

But nonetheless, we have a simple serial serum with water butylene glycol, which is a humectant, and these growth factors that.

[Perry Romanoski]

Are a combination of it's IGF, EGF and TGF. I will say they say it's a 15% solution. So it's not 15% of that. It could be like a 15% of solution that they throw in there. So it's very difficult to know how much is actually in there.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. Very nebulous. But. And the rest are just stabilizers, preservatives, that sort of thing. Now, I am a growth factor skeptic. I've sat through a lot of presentations, different organizations, manufacturers, try to promote growth factors for hair growth. And I just don't know that they get through the skin and provide benefit.

[Perry Romanoski]

That is a big challenge. Like, this is a big molecule. The hardest thing for it to do is get down to the dermis, where if these are gonna have any impact, it's going to have to get down to the dermis. I mean, any impact beyond moisturization or occlusivity or emollients, see, or something like that depends on what the nature of the material is. But if it doesn't get down to the growing cells, the stem cells and the dermis, then none of this supposed boosting of collagen production or growth factoring is going to have any impact.

[Valerie George]

When I first moved to Los Angeles, I made a pretty good living doing different studies, like consumer panels. Like, I did one with Reebok. They were thinking about coming out with like, a fine fragrance line to like, go their shoes. And they wanted to know, like, what you thought as a consumer. Well, I did this study. I've talked about it before on the show, but basically I went to this Beverly Hills dermatologist.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

And they took pictures of my face. I had to use the products that were in testing. They were developing their own skincare line, and I didn't think much of it. I did the basics of this study, and then they kind of never called me back because, you know, I was younger. So obviously we're not going to see a huge difference in that skin. Right. I think I was like 28 at the time or something like that. Well, fast forward, like, I don't know, maybe eight years later, I saw a warning letter from the FDA to this Beverly Hills dermatologist saying growth factors and the things that you're saying they do are drug claims, and you have to stop immediately. And so I, you know, at the time, I wasn't in the industry or I was new to the industry. Excuse me. So, like, I didn't know any better. But, you know, looking back, I'm like, of course this stuff wouldn't work. But there are studies that show they, you know, in vitro, maybe in vivo a little bit, they can improve. Improve skin health. They can promote collagen production, reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, help stimulate hair growth because they stimulate your. Your cells, helping with repair. But I just think in real life, you know, you got to be a little skeptical.

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, of course there's a bunch. They're not going to make these claims without some lab studies. And when a lab study, what they do is they have a. A skin cell line in a petri dish. It's, you know, it could be human stem cells. And then they put it on there, and then they measure certain aspects of what the stem cell line is producing. And from that, they can make claims. It's all very nebulous. So if you were injecting this stuff right into your dermis. Yeah. Then that sort of makes the study more relevant. But the fact that the ingredient can't get down to the dermis, it just sticks here in the stratum. Corneum or maybe the higher levels of the epidermium dermis, and it never gets down to the dermis, then it's not doing anything. It's like trying to paint a wall through a door that you can't get through. So I mean it's not going to do anything. And so these are make for good selling stories because you know, there is lab data that show that it could do something if it got there. But come on, it doesn't. There's no evidence that it actually gets where it's got to go.

[Valerie George]

But I will say for $15 50. 50 cents in US dollars.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

It's not a bad price for a dream. If this were 50 bucks, 40 bucks, 100 bucks, I would say, eh, I probably wouldn't try it. But for just $15 for this serum, for sure you're going to get hydrated skin because of the butylene glycol and glycerin present in it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right, right.

[Valerie George]

You know, and maybe there's some hope the, the growth factors or synthetic human peptides could do something. Yeah.

[Perry Romanoski]

What are the ingredients? I'm looking at this ingredient list. They got the Nicotiana Benthamini Miana hexapeptide 40. That's one. Right.

[Valerie George]

And then we got the SH oligopeptide one. Actually that's part. That's part of it. I think that's the whole thing.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. Gotcha. The SH oligopeptide 1. Then we got the SH polypeptide 76 and the SH oligopeptide 2. So those are the growth factors, I guess.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. So bottom line, for $15.50 tax excluded. Megan, I would give it a try.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, don't expect anything. You could get a solution of glycerin and then probably get the same effect. But you won't have the hope. So you won't have the hope.

[Valerie George]

Well, our next question comes to us from Tegan. Tegan wants to know the New York Times wrote an article in 2022 about low dose minoxidil pills to treat hair loss in women. What's your opinion of the treatment?

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, I wasn't familiar with this, but I looked up the study that was published in the Journal of the American Academy of dermatology back in 2021 called oral minoxidil Treatment for Hair Loss. A Review of Efficacy and Safety. And what I found was that, yeah, this has been looked at. So minoxidil is a topical ingredient that has been proven to prompt hair growth in at least some people. It doesn't work for everybody. It works only for about 60. You know, about 2/3 of people who try it will see some hair growth, which means a third of people won't see anything. And one of the problems with this ingredient is that not everybody sees a topical effect. And so it got people wondering, well, okay, if you don't, if it doesn't work topically, will it work as an oral supplement? And so this study, the paper that I talked about, was a collection of 17 studies. And they were trying to. But they were all kind of done differently. So it makes it hard to draw definitive conclusions about efficacy. The usage range from 0.5 milligrams to 5 milligrams. And so we don't know about that. There's also kind of an overemphasis on the positive outcomes. For instance, in some studies, only about a third of the participants reported less shedding. So that means, you know, for two thirds of people, it didn't work. So that's different than the topical. But as far as safety goes, it looks safe. And so the, you know, there's a compelling case here that oral minoxidil is a viable hair loss treatment. But we don't. We can't say for sure that this is as good. But, you know, maybe based on what I was reading here, it seems just as good as the topical part. So if the topical is not working for you, and it's worth trying, but of course, this is something you should talk to your doctor about before you try.

[Valerie George]

I know a couple people who've taken the oral minoxidil, and one of them is so happy with the results. And she said, man, I wish I would have started this sooner. So she must be in that third where it's really effective. Yeah, I would also say, say, you know, anytime I think of anything oral, I'm like, what are the side effects with it? Because, you know, when you ingest something, you can have a lot of side effects and they can be not great. But the side effects through this are reported to be pretty low. So basically, 15.1% people have hypertrichosis, which is excessive hair growth on the body, which, you know, that's a good sign, I think.

[Perry Romanoski]

And so the bad. The good news is your hair loss has stopped. The bad news is you've got a lot more hair everywhere.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. 1.7% lightheadedness, 1.3% fluid retention, 0.9% tachycardia, which is fast. Heartbeat, 0.4% headache, 0.3% periorbital edema, which Is, you know, under eye puffiness or swelling and 0.2% insomnia. And this one was a large retrospective multi center study with 1,404 patients. So probably more to come. You know, side effects get reported over time.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

But I would say, like, none of those are pretty bad.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, I mean, as safety goes, it's a drug that's been around for a while. I don't know if it's been around as an oral product for as long. But, you know, presumably the manufacturer has done the studies and the FDA has not said, don't do this, so it's probably safe for it. And all of the data that's been collected so far suggests that's the case too. So, you know, it could be worth trying if you, if something else hasn't worked for you. There aren't a lot of hair loss options for most people. All right, another hair question here we have here from Cassie. She says, I've been air drying my hair since I stopped using heat tools in 2020. Recently, I read that air drying causes more damage to your scalp than blow drying. Is there any truth to this? If so, what causes the damage in air drying? And could there be a way to prevent that? Thank you, Cassie.

[Valerie George]

This is a study that was done a couple years ago, Perry, I don't know if you remember this. We talked about it a long time ago on the show. Because at the time that this study came out, there were a lot of derm influencers online.

[Perry Romanoski]

Oh, yeah.

[Valerie George]

Talking about this and being like, wow, maybe you should be like, blow drying your hair. Like air drying. So bad for it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

And when you look at the study in Face Value, basically you would say that, yeah, air drying does cause more damage. And the thought process, your hair remains more wet for a longer period of time, and this wetness of your hair leads to hair swelling. And this can be more damaging to your cuticle since it stays wet longer.

[Perry Romanoski]

Now, I would also say the question, so about the hair, I can sort of buy that. But about the question is about, is your scalp gonna feel worse or damaging to your scalp? It seems strange to me, but I guess I could see that if your hair remains wetter, longer, your scalp could, I don't know what, prune up.

[Valerie George]

I think the. Maybe the asker is a little confused because the, the thing that was going around is definitely about the hair, not the scalp.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure, sure.

[Valerie George]

But in thinking about this for a second, I don't know, you could go swimming for two hours and you're fine, right?

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

I mean, people don't like if you air dry your hair. This is what I've also seen from the derm influencers online, that if you air dry your hair or go to sleep with wet hair, you can get mold and bacteria growing on your scalp. And I don't think that's how it works. Your microbiome is in pretty good balance on your scalp usually.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. I mean, I can see if you have dandruff, maybe that could cause a problem being moist like that. But for people who have healthy hair, I don't see this impacting yourself scalp. Certainly not more than if you were swimming. Although how long does your hair stay damp after a shower or something after towel dry?

[Valerie George]

Well, it depends on the health of the hair because when your hair is healthy, it has a really nice lipid layer over it.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

And for someone like me, I do have long hair, but I don't do any chemical treatments to it beyond shampooing. And if you were to spray water on my hair, you would see the water bead up.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

With really high surface tension. Whereas if your hair were damaged, you1 have lost your lipid layer. Your hair is more hydrophilic, meaning water loving. And your hair just sucks up this water and it stays wet for a really long time. So someone like me, my hair could be dry within an hour or two just by air drying. It dries very fast. Somebody who chemically processes lightens their hair. It could stay wet for a really long time. And you could tell even when you're blow drying. Wow, this hair is taking a really long time to blow dry.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. I, you know, my hair dries like I don't know, within 15 minutes maybe. But I have short hair and you know, I don't chemically or anything. Yeah. So, but back to this. So let's say she's talking about the actual hair fiber. Is there any truth to the hair fiber getting more damage by air drying versus blow drying?

[Valerie George]

I don't think so. Because when you look at the study, there's drying hair with. So the original notion is that blow drying your hair is the worst thing for your hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Because you, you're heating it. And he is very stressful on hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

And if you've actually ever looked at scanning electron micrographs of hair that's been pretty previously lightened and then had he applied to it like with a blow dryer, the hair looks like it's exploded a thousand times. It's really bad.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

And we know the importance of using thermal protectants on hair to protect your hair from breakage over time. That's why there's a whole category of hair products for thermal protection.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

So this study is saying, or at least consumers have taken away from this study, that air drying your hair is worse for your hair than dry it with the blow dryer. So what happened in the study is they took hair and one set of hair was their baseline. They didn't do anything to it. No treatment. The second truss, they dried it without using a hair dryer, room temperature, which is about 20°C.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

Then they dried with a hair dryer on a different truss for 60 seconds at a distance of 15 centimeters, which if we're looking in inches, this is 6 inches away from the hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

Then they took another tress, the fourth one, and dried it with a hair dryer for only 30 seconds at 10 centimeters away. So the time was shorter, but the distance was 1/3 closer.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Then they dried it at 15 seconds with just being 5cm or 2 inches from the hair. Then they looked at the health of a hair. What lipid prolonged profile was present, what water content was present. They basically concluded that moisture content decreased in all treated groups as drying. Of course, because the drying happens. The cell membrane complex, which is like the center of the hair fiber, was damaged only in the naturally dried group without the hair dryer and without knowing the health of, of the hair. Because again, that plays a huge role. It's hard to say, you know, if this was like virgin hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

I would be really surprised by that. But in the heated groups, they didn't notice that. But then their conclusion was, although using a hair dryer causes more surface damage than natural drying, using a hair dryer at a distance of 15 cm with continuous motion causes less damage than drying hair naturally.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

So the further you are away, the less damage to your hair and the.

[Perry Romanoski]

Longer it takes to dry your hair that way. Because that's not how people behave.

[Valerie George]

That's right. And the thing I don't like about this study is one we don't know about the original hair health, but we also, it's not realistic. Like if you go to a salon and they're blow drying your hair, the blow dryer is literally against the brush.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

It is less than 1cm away from your hair fiber. And they basically put them up as hot as they can get. And so I just don't believe under normal use conditions this scenario is true.

[Perry Romanoski]

I even think of those classic hair dryers that you stick your head under. A hair dryer.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanoski]

The hoods those are not 15 inches or 15 centimeters away. Right. Those are like right on your hair, so.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, exactly. So I think people should still, you know, stay away from the heat tools. It's okay to use them every once in a while. Just use a freaking thermal protectant.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. And. Or use a towel. And maybe in this study it showed it was a bit more damaging, but it's not particularly damaging, so.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. And what you can also do, and this is what they, you know, we had a test salon in our lab at my previous salon, professional brand, where I was the head of R D. And what they would do is they would hold the blow dryer far away and they would quickly move the dryer over the hair to get it like 50 to 60% dry.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

And then they would go in close. This was to make the whole blow drying process faster. And so based on the study, of course, the further away you are, like, it's actually better for your hair than air drying, but you're not doing that most of the time. So anyway, bottom line, just do what you're happiest with.

[Perry Romanoski]

I know as far as the consumer goes, this means nothing. It's very kind of pedantic. And the results are based on. They didn't do like Instron or diastron fiber pulling test or anything like that, which could tell you more about how damaged the hair is and such.

[Valerie George]

They just said like a lot of chemical analysis. They didn't actually look at like the fiber mechanics.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. So I'm not sure how much that study applies to real life. All right, we have time for a couple of more. This one came to us from Avery.

[Valerie George]

Hi, Beauty Brains. I love the podcast. Thanks for what you do. I have fine, low density, curly hair. I also have a very sensitive scalp to the extent that I'm always looking for fragrance free allergen free hair care that also works for my hair type.

[Perry Romanoski]

Wow.

[Valerie George]

Brands such as Klur are loaded with glycerin, even the clarifying shampoo, and it's too moisturizing for me. Innocence Clarity shampoo doesn't irritate, but it's a very gentle cleanser. Their conditioner causes excessive shedding for me. I've tried curlsmith, Too heavy Scene Meh Curl, Mic. Too heavy. Oui. Dad makes my hair fall out, you name it. I can't find any products specifically for fine hair without fragrance. I also stay away from silicones because they weigh my hair down. I have some grays, but don't color, use heat on often and have other damage. Basically My question is, what can I use that will thoroughly clean my hair without weighing it down? And what conditioner will detangle it without leaving a bunch of stuff on my hair that weighs it down? I can't find any products specifically for fine hair without fragrance. Shampoo and conditioner are the hardest to find since those touch my scalp directly or put deposits in the hair. Thank you.

[Perry Romanoski]

You know, I find it interesting as not really part of the answer, but I do find it interesting, the power of suggestion and marketing in these kinds of things. Because she says that if something has glycerin in it, the klur is loaded with glycerin. Even in the clarifying shampoo, then it's too moisturizing. But glycerin in a shampoo just rinses down your drain. It doesn't stick on your hair. It doesn't do anything except maybe reduce the foam. So that. Where is she getting this notion that the glycerin is doing anything? And it just must come from the marketing because she knows, yeah, glycerin is moisturizing, but it gets washed out.

[Valerie George]

It does, yeah. It's a foam killer, a viscosity killer. And some brands, you know, I've gone to other labs and they've showed me their shampoo formulas. They're putting like 7 to 10% glycerin in shampoo formulas. I'm like, what are you doing? And the customers like the feel of it, I think, because it makes the shampoo more dense feeling, right?

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

But in terms of like action on the hair, it doesn't do anything.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. It just, just rinses down the drain. Now what it does do is it can improve the stability of something if it's frozen, you know, it's brought down, it reduces what's called the cloud point. So the colder it gets, it doesn't solidify up. But other than that, it's. It doesn't really belong in shampoos, quite frankly. But it's not moisturizing.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Now the challenge here is pretty much Avery has listed every fragrance free product line out there. And I agree that scene is meh. It's also, I don't think it's stable. I've had, you know, in my lab for a while. But anyway, neither here nor there. But when it comes to hair care, first, fragrance free is very difficult to find at least quality, high performing fragrance free products that work on a wide range of hair types, such as Avery with fine hair.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. And that's hard, basically, because the surfactants, you're using, they have an odor to them and you can't really cover that odor in an easy way. And so unless you're going to accept that your hair smells like wax crayons or something, you need a fragrance in there.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. And you know, there's an interesting paper from, gosh, 1960 or something like that. It's one of the first papers that I ever read.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

About hair care. I started way back in the Journal of Cosmetic Science and worked my way up to the current day. It actually is about the importance of fragrance in shampoos to the consumer. And it has, you know, back then they didn't, I don't think they knew what like allergens were and that kind of stuff as far as it came to fragrance. But it basically was like just the psychology of the human race. It's ingrained to us to have this like really fragrant experience in the shower.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

And everyone opens up, oh, what does it smell like? You know, when they open the bottle in the store to give it a sniff. And right now I'm using a banana scented conditioner that I picked up the last time I was in Germany. And you know what? I kind of like it. Right. So it's. And it covers up something that could be pretty, pretty stinky, as Perry mentioned. So it's just part of the consumer product landscape for hair care products that they have some kind of fragrance because if you move and you have like a really quatty, you know, fishy like conditioner that had been on your hair, it's not good.

[Perry Romanoski]

And it just is indicative of what the market wants. People are told that fragrances are bad for them frequently. And yet if you look on the market, there just aren't that many fragrance free hair care products. And it's because the products were tried, they just do not sell very well. In fact, when I would do market research studies and I would compare exactly the same formula but just with a different fragrance, people would report rinsing differences, conditioning feel differences, combing differences, differences that in the lab you could never show. But there is the halo effect of a good fragrance. And I think one of the reasons that Pantene has been one of consistently the number one selling shampoo brand and conditioner brand since, you know, 20, in 25 years, since 20, 20 is because people love their fragrance. I mean, people just do.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. I can't tell you how many customers I've formulated for and the project starts out fragrance free. And even they halfway through to say, oh man, I just want it to smell so good, and they change their minds and we end up adding fragrance to it. It happens, right? Literally. Has happened almost every single time. Except one brand I work with. They're actually going to launch without a fragrance. I can't mention who they are, otherwise I'd recommend them. They. They did not. They stuck to their guns and they're. They're going fragrance free. But it is very tough because people do want to smell nice.

[Perry Romanoski]

So maybe one of the solutions to your problem is look for a fragrance that you can handle, you know, product and.

[Valerie George]

Or even just get a fragrance free shampoo. But the conditioner, don't put it on your scalp. Focus it on the middle to ends of the hair. A lot of people put conditioner on their scalp, which always perplexed me. But conditioner is for the middle to the ends and for something that won't weigh your hair down. The emulsifier that's used in the conditioner plays a really big role. So I would look for something like stearamidopropyl dimethylamine or even a cleansing conditioner, which is, you know, positioned as like a cleansing shampoo in a conditioner format. Right. Those are actually really, really, really, really lightweight conditioners. You just have to see if you can find one that's fragrance free.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. All right, Avery's got one last question on a different topic. I recently tried Caudalie Dark spot serum. At $82 a bottle, it's more expensive than what I was previously using, the ordinary transexamic acid, which worked, but irritated my skin. Is there anything in the ingredients for this product proven to reduce dark spots? I've used it for a month, and it seems to be a very nice moisturizer, but I'm not sure it does anything else. Two, do you have any suggestions for products for pigmentation that are gentle and won't cause redness? And please don't say skinceuticals. I'm not looking to spend that much. Thank you. All right.

[Valerie George]

Yes, skinceuticals is pretty expensive.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yes. Is that vitamin C and ferulic acid and vitamin E, Is that the blend on?

[Valerie George]

That's the one. And it's just gotten more expensive. It used to be like $125 an ounce. Now that their patent is expiring, they've increased their prices and just have jacked everything up. I would say, like, their products are more expensive than they need to be.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, well, maybe with the patents expiring, then lots of knockoffs will come in cheaper and that'll Be good for consumers, maybe.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. Well, we did talk about Caudaly a few episodes ago because someone was interested in their, like, I think the resveratrol technology that they have. Yeah, I actually really like the whole product line. So the formula, the formulators are doing a great job. I just like how lightweight everything is.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

You know, does it really work? I don't know the answer to that question.

[Perry Romanoski]

It turns out this Caudly is actually still owned by the family business that started it. However, they also have a deal with lvmh, which is, you know, one of the largest companies. They started that in 2017. They purchased a minority stake in the company. And so I think that allows the Caudalie brand some access to R and D that comes from lvmh. So that's why when they make claims about their products, you can have more faith that what they're saying is probably true.

[Valerie George]

That's right. I recall that being ownership, but a small stake is, you know, in some way ownership. And they want to make sure they've protected their investment. So I believe that Caudly is still doing everything that large brands are doing.

[Perry Romanoski]

Sure, sure. All right, so as far as Caudaly goes, is there anything in there that's making it work to reduce dark spots? Well, I see they have a brightening dark spots vitamin C alternative. And this one is using as their active ingredient viniferin.

[Valerie George]

Vino Perfect. Yeah, it's technology from grapes. Which one are you talking about?

[Perry Romanoski]

No, they have viniferine is their key ingredient in this serum.

[Valerie George]

Oh. But they call the technology Vino Perfect.

[Perry Romanoski]

Gotcha. Yeah, that is the product I'm talking about. Yeah, I'm talking about the ingredient. Okay, so viniferin, they say it's a natural extract derived from vinesap. They say 62 times more effective than vitamin C. And they were comparing it to the effect on tyrosinase, which is.

[Valerie George]

A enzyme that triggers the pigment producing pathway in skin.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right. And so this stuff and the way vitamin C is supposed to work, it stops tyrosinase from working. And so this stuff is supposed to inhibit tyrosinase 62 times more effectively. So that's their thing. They call it palmitoyle grapevine shoot extract. So I guess that's it. I don't know.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, I've actually tried this serum before and I really liked it. Like I said, I like most of the Caudalie products. You know, I can tell that it has a lot of humectants in it. And it uses a polymer called polyacrylate cross polymer 6 that everyone is always a fan of because it just like melts into your skin. So I guess I would say I don't know if I can judge the dark spot reducing factor in it because I didn't pay attention to that. I mostly was just paying attention to the sensorial experience while using it and I was very happy.

[Perry Romanoski]

I will say though, this is again one of those treatments where if it actually like the growth factors we talked about earlier, if it actually did what it's saying it's doing, that would kind of make it a drug because you're not supposed to be able to interact with the biochemistry of skin. So that makes it a little questionable.

[Valerie George]

And I do also want to mention that their viniferine, you know, grape shoot extract vino perfect technology is actually an in vitro test. So they didn't do it in living humans. Again, they took that, that cell culture culture, applied the ingredient, looked at what factors were being produced and said 62 times more effective. So that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work IRL in real life.

[Perry Romanoski]

And at $82 a bottle. Wow. For 30 milliliters, that's one ounce.

[Valerie George]

If you use it once a day and you put it on your face and your neck, you're looking at like four, five to six weeks at best.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[Valerie George]

That's a lot of money.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah. So, but what would be better?

[Valerie George]

Well, going back to the ordinary, you can't beat their prices and they're using the same ingredients everyone else is using. Maybe not this exclusive technology to Caudalie, but it's very good. One of my old co workers came to me and said, hey, I'm looking for skin brightening and skincare products. What are some new things I can could use? And I said, well, what do you currently use? And she said, oh, Obagi, which is an expensive dermatologist skincare brand. And I was mentioning a couple other lines that I liked and one of them was the ordinary. And she cut me off and said, I'm sorry, I actually like to spend money on my skin care.

[Perry Romanoski]

It's not all about performance in this business. Well, I will say if the transexamic acid is causing irritation, don't they have like a vitamin C something or other that you could try?

[Valerie George]

Well, if the tranexamic acid is the actual ingredient that's irritating their skin, I would be surprised by that.

[Perry Romanoski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Because vitamin C is actually very irritating to skin as well. So I probably wouldn't recommend that.

[Perry Romanoski]

But the, but the Derivatives. The vitamin C derivatives are less irritating.

[Valerie George]

So you could do a vitamin C ester like tetrahexidosyl ascorbate iris, sell it on my website. And a lot of people make their own serums with it. You can get a serum from the ordinary. I think it's, you know, a little more expensive. Other brands have these tetrahexyl decyl ascorbate serums as well. But you're right, Perry, it's PH independent. That might be a great option.

[Perry Romanoski]

Yeah, well, we like to give people some options. And speaking of options, do you hear that music?

[Valerie George]

We gotta go. Thanks for listening.

[Perry Romanoski]

Hey, if you get a chance, can you head over to Apple Podcasts or wherever, wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review that helps other people find the show. And so we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

[Valerie George]

Speaking of questions, if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsml.com we love hearing other voices on the show. Real voices. Or you can just use the form in the show notes at the bottom of this episode.

[Perry Romanoski]

The Beauty Brains are also on Patreon, which is another place where you. You can enter your questions. Just head on over to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. We appreciate all of our patrons and they get their questions answered in a higher priority and also a transcript of the show. And on occasion we do special patron only events, which we should do a few of those this year.

[Valerie George]

I definitely think we should. Also don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page and a TikTok. Guess what, Perry? I actually made an Instagram post.

[Perry Romanoski]

You did? Whoa.

[Valerie George]

On our page for the last episode, first one of the year, which is a huge improvement because we made zero last year.

[Perry Romanoski]

Well, I will have to check that out and like it from my Instagram accounts that I don't use. The Joggler, for example. You know, I never use.

[Valerie George]

Oh goodness.

[Perry Romanoski]

I never use Instagram for business stuff. It's all just like pictures of my cats and stuff.

[Valerie George]

I see stuff people love. Well, thanks again for listening everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[Perry Romanoski]

Thanks everyone.

[Valerie George]

Kittens.

[C]

Are growth factors the miracle they claim to be. Do they smooth wrinkles and set youthful skin free? Perry says they're big. They can't get through your skin but for 50 in dollars. Hey, let the hope begin. Oh beauty questions answers we seek science and humor every week from hair to skin we'll make it clear we bring about your beauty year to year Fragrance free and lightweight care for fine haired folks it's so rare Dark spots fading but at what cost? Affordable serums won't leave you lost Minoxidil pills for hair that's gone it works for some but not everyone an air drying hair couldn't cause more harm Turns out it's fine Just don't sound the alarm. Oh beauty questions answers we see science and humor every week from hair to skin we'll make it clear. Be brainy bout your beauty year to year Be brainy about your beauty Learn to laugh and play Valerie and Perry guide the way from science Back dancers with skeptics view the beauty Brains are here for.