Episode 388 - Minoxidil, Hair Loss Lawsuits, Phthalates and cats

Summary

The Beauty Brains - Episode 388 Summary: Minoxidil, Hair Loss Lawsuits, Phthalates, and Cats

Release Date: February 5, 2025

In Episode 388 of The Beauty Brains, hosts Valerie George and Perry Romanowski delve into a myriad of beauty-related topics, ranging from the intricacies of cosmetic chemistry to listener concerns about product safety and ingredient transparency. This episode is packed with insightful discussions, expert opinions, and engaging anecdotes, making it a must-listen for beauty enthusiasts and professionals alike.

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1. Welcoming Perry and Personal Anecdotes

The episode kicks off with Valerie welcoming Perry back from his vacation in Belize. Perry shares a humorous and heartwarming story about his feral cat, who found refuge in his walls during his absence.

• Perry Romanowski (00:58): “Valerie, I'm just back from my trip to Belize and my insect bites are almost healed.”

Their lighthearted conversation about the cat, named Puffers, sets a friendly tone for the episode, offering listeners a glimpse into the hosts' personal lives and fostering a relatable atmosphere.

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2. Beauty News: Hair Loss Lawsuits and Phthalates Concerns

A. Proctor & Gamble's Mel Organics Faces Class Action Lawsuit

The hosts address a significant development in the beauty industry—a class action lawsuit filed against Mel Organics, owned by Procter & Gamble. The lawsuit alleges that the company's Rosemary Mint Scalp and Strengthening Hair Oil may cause hair loss and that this risk was not adequately disclosed to consumers.

• Valerie George (05:38): “Consumers were misled into purchasing it under false pretenses. They definitely have a little bit more basis to seek punitive damages and restitution.”

Perry critiques the lawsuit, expressing skepticism about the claims:

• Perry Romanowski (07:02): “Biotin... doesn't grow hair. But... I don't see anything in this product that is... would cause any hair loss for sure.”

They discuss the challenges of proving that a product causes hair loss, especially when the product ingredients themselves are generally recognized as safe. Valerie notes the trend of such lawsuits against big brands, suggesting that deeper pockets make companies like Procter & Gamble frequent targets.

B. Critique of Phthalates in Cosmetics

Valerie and Perry then examine a University of Texas A&M study published in Scientific Reports concerning the pervasive use of phthalates in cosmetics. Phthalates are criticized as endocrine disruptors and reproductive toxicants.

• Perry Romanowski (09:19): “They say specifically, if you look for fragrance or perfume, that could mean that there's going to be phthalates in there.”

However, the hosts express disagreement with the study's alarmist stance, arguing that not all phthalates are harmful and that regulatory bodies like the FDA and the European Commission have deemed certain phthalates safe for use in cosmetics.

• Valerie George (10:29): “Anyone can write phthalate free on a product. It doesn't mean anything.”

• Perry Romanowski (10:34): “Cosmetics don't use phthalates that much. The only one I know of is diethyl phthalate... It's completely safe for use.”

They caution against chemical fear-mongering, emphasizing the importance of dose and regulatory approval in assessing the safety of cosmetic ingredients.

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3. Listener Follow-Ups and Brand Discussions

A. Hydroquinone in Zeo Products

Amy, a listener from previous episodes, inquires about obtaining 4% hydroquinone creams from Zeo products.

• Valerie George (13:41): “I purchased it from a medi cosmetic spa clinic... requires a prescription.”

Valerie advises caution, highlighting the regulatory restrictions around hydroquinone and the necessity of obtaining it through legitimate medical channels.

B. Fragrance-Free Hair Care with Euphora

Brianna asks about fragrance-free hair care options, specifically mentioning the Euphora brand.

• Perry Romanowski (15:02): “She said... there is absolutely no artificial fragrance in those products. And there's also no water as the first ingredient.”

The hosts scrutinize Euphora's labeling practices, noting that while claiming no artificial fragrances, the possibility of natural fragrances can still pose allergenic risks. They also discuss the mislabeling of ingredients, such as listing aloe vera extract in place of water, which can mislead consumers about the product's true composition.

• Valerie George (15:58): “Rehydrate the aloe vera. Aloe vera leaf juice. Very common practice.”

They conclude that while Euphora offers quality products with appealing fragrances, consumers should remain vigilant about ingredient transparency.

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4. Addressing Beauty Questions

A. Mixing Chemical Exfoliants with Hydrating Serums

Sammy from Patreon asks whether it's safe to dilute a chemical exfoliant with a hydrating serum to reduce its strength.

• Sammy's Question (17:32): “Can you mix my chemical exfoliant with a hydrating serum to dilute how strong the exfoliant is?”

Valerie and Perry agree that this is a reasonable approach, provided the mixing is done immediately before application to avoid compromising the product's stability.

• Valerie George (18:19): “I think this is a perfectly fine thing to do... could be worth trying.”

• Perry Romanowski (19:26): “As long as you're just mixing it in your hand before you're using the product... that's good.”

They caution against storing pre-mixed products, which haven't been stability tested, and advise against mixing exfoliants with incompatible bases like sodium bicarbonate or sunless tanning products.

B. Safety of Topical Minoxidil on Eyebrows for Women

Lisa inquires about the safety of using topical minoxidil on eyebrows for women.

• Lisa's Question (21:29): “Is using a topical minoxidil for women safe to put on the eyebrows?”

Valerie references existing literature supporting minoxidil's efficacy on eyebrows and beards, noting that while it's generally safe, caution must be exercised to prevent the product from entering the eyes.

• Valerie George (21:39): “It totally works. But... you definitely would not want to get it near your eyes.”

Perry adds that some dermatologists do prescribe minoxidil off-label for eyebrows, reinforcing its safety profile when used correctly.

C. Lipid Loss from Hair Due to Surfactants

Renata asks about the extent of lipid loss from hair caused by surfactants, referencing a 2019 study from Nature.

• Renata's Question (25:08): “How much damage does this really represent?”

Valerie and Perry explain that surfactants in shampoos are designed to remove debris and loose lipids from hair, and while excessive use of harsh shampoos can strip essential lipids, normal use typically poses no significant damage.

• Valerie George (26:01): “Just don't use a really crazy shampoo seven days a week or 14 times a week.”

They emphasize that moderation and the choice of gentle surfactants can mitigate potential damage.

D. Concerns About Aveeno Daily Moisturizing Cream’s Preservatives

John raises concerns about the preservative system in Aveeno Daily Moisturizing Cream, questioning its adequacy given the product's high water content and packaging in a tub, which may be prone to contamination.

• John's Question (30:38): “Is the preservative package appropriate for this product? Is Aveeno chancing a recall by not having an appropriate preservative package?”

Valerie and Perry dissect the ingredient list, noting minimal preservatives but hypothesizing that high glycerin content likely reduces water activity, thereby enhancing preservative efficacy.

• Perry Romanowski (33:18): “They probably have 20% glycerin... it's gonna make it much harder for any kind of microbes to grow.”

They express confidence in Johnson & Johnson’s rigorous testing protocols, suggesting that despite appearances, the product is likely stable and safe.

E. Finding Websites to Identify Allergic Ingredients in Products

Jan seeks recommendations for websites that allow her to input allergic ingredients and identify their presence in beauty, household products, and possibly clothing.

• Jan's Question (38:10): “Can you tell me about the best websites to be able to plug in the chemicals I'm allergic to?”

Valerie and Perry suggest resources like Inky Decoder for beauty products and recommend checking ingredient lists directly from major brands' websites for household items. They also mention Cosmelab Europe for ingredient information but note its limitations regarding finished products.

• Perry Romanowski (39:07): “Inky Decoder has a lot of product... but they don't have every product.”

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5. Predictions and Educational Roles

In a playful interaction, John predicts that Valerie will take over the skincare ingredient series at UCLA from Rebecca Gadbury.

• John’s Prediction (31:08): “I predict that you are going to take over the skin care ingredient series for cosmetic professionals at UCLA...”

Valerie humbly responds, clarifying her current teaching role at the University of California, Riverside, and expressing gratitude for the suggestion.

• Valerie George (31:27): “I teach at the University of California, Riverside. But I think it would be really fun.”

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6. Final Thoughts and Social Media Engagement

As the episode wraps up, Valerie and Perry encourage listeners to engage with them through various channels, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Patreon, and social media platforms like Instagram and X (formerly Twitter). They emphasize the importance of listener feedback and participation in sustaining the show's interactive nature.

• Perry Romanowski (42:02): “If you have a question, you can just record it on your smartphone... we also give you a transcript and sometimes we plan events.”

They conclude with a warm sign-off, reminding listeners to "be brainy about your beauty."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Valerie George (05:38): “Consumers were misled into purchasing it under false pretenses. They definitely have a little bit more basis to seek punitive damages and restitution.”

• Perry Romanowski (09:19): “If you look for fragrance or perfume, that could mean that there's going to be phthalates in there.”

• Valerie George (10:29): “Anyone can write phthalate free on a product. It doesn't mean anything.”

• Perry Romanowski (17:32): “Can you mix my chemical exfoliant with a hydrating serum to dilute how strong the exfoliant is?”

• Valerie George (21:39): “It totally works. But... you definitely would not want to get it near your eyes.”

• Valerie George (26:01): “Just don't use a really crazy shampoo seven days a week or 14 times a week.”

• Perry Romanowski (33:18): “They probably have 20% glycerin... it's gonna make it much harder for any kind of microbes to grow.”

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Conclusion

Episode 388 of The Beauty Brains offers a comprehensive exploration of current beauty industry challenges, product safety concerns, and practical advice for consumers navigating the complex world of cosmetics. Valerie and Perry’s expertise as cosmetic chemists shines through their nuanced discussions, providing listeners with reliable insights and actionable information. Whether addressing legal disputes, chemical safety, or personal beauty routines, this episode reinforces the importance of informed decision-making in beauty product usage.

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Be brainy about your beauty.

Transcript

[Valerie George]

Hi, I'm Valerie, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetics industry. This is episode 388. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

Hello, Valerie.

[Valerie George]

On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions. So welcome back from your vacation, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

Thanks.

[Valerie George]

Such as can you mix chemical exfoliant with a hydrating serum to dilute. The exfoliant is using a topical minoxidil safe to use on eyebrows. Does shampoo really strip all the lipids from your hair? Is the Aveeno Daily moisturizing cream properly preserved? And finally, do we know of a good website to find allergenic ingredients in products? But first, inane chitchat.

[Perry Romanowski]

Valerie, I'm just back from my trip to Belize and my insect bites are almost healed.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my goodness.

[Perry Romanowski]

But I must have got about 150.

[Valerie George]

You know, your skin's still a little red looking.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, that could be it.

[Valerie George]

Well, enough about you, Perry. We want to hear about the cat. We don't care how your trip was. The cat in the wall. We need an update.

[Perry Romanowski]

It was lovely. Well, here's what happened. You know, the cat in the wall, this cat got into my wall, and I couldn't get him out, but I was leaving on my trip. So we talked about it In, I'd say 386 if you want the start of it. But anyway, so my plan was to just let him be in my house while I was on my trip. So I put out a lot of food, I put out a bunch of water, enough for two weeks. And I put out litter boxes. And it's very interesting to me that a feral cat just knows to use a litter box.

[Valerie George]

It blows my mind. I wonder how they know.

[Perry Romanowski]

I don't know. I came back and he went to the. He used the litter boxes that I put for him. It was so, so convenient, quite frankly.

[Valerie George]

Wow.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. So anyway, he, you know, it was like home alone. I put a couple of cameras there, and he came out of the wall. And then when he knew nobody was there, he would just hang out. There was a cat bed. He played with toys.

[Valerie George]

He was living high on the hog. That's what he was doing.

[Perry Romanowski]

He was. And then when I got home, he ran into the wall again, but he was a little braver. And then I let his friend Puffers come into the house.

[Valerie George]

Okay, so he's friends with puffers.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. He and puffers are pals. Like, they. They hang out outside and they lick each other and stuff. So.

[Valerie George]

All right.

[Perry Romanowski]

He came out, he saw puffers, and then eventually he just scurried outside and. And ran. Ran away. So. And he still hangs out at my house now. Still, so. But he was. He's safe. He got to stay out of the cold. And I think he kind of is inside curious now.

[Valerie George]

He is going to remember those days where he was on vacation while you were on vacation, and I hope he comes back.

[Perry Romanowski]

It was. You know, there was a moment when I saw that he knocked over the automatic feeder.

[Valerie George]

Huh.

[Perry Romanowski]

And I wasn't gonna come home for, like, two days, so I got worried.

[Valerie George]

Because cats need to eat. Like, their metabolism is crazy, Right.

[Perry Romanowski]

And so. So my cleaning lady, I asked her to go to my house and. And give him. Make sure he's got food and water. So.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my God.

[Perry Romanowski]

Which is probably a little bit out.

[Valerie George]

Of control because Kevin had a nanny.

[Perry Romanowski]

I know. He did. Well, yeah. She never saw him. She just went and gave him more food and such, so it all worked out perfectly fine. So there you go.

[Valerie George]

I wonder if your house cleaner tells all her friends that you're the crazy cat man.

[Perry Romanowski]

She. She actually might.

[Valerie George]

Oh, goodness. Well, I don't have anything new to report. My black eye is gone. Sometimes I think I can still see, like, a little shadow. Like, oh, wow, it looks darker a little bit. But it's healed. People no longer wonder how I got it, so that's good. And, you know, life is just normal. It was 80 degrees Fahrenheit in Dallas.

[Perry Romanowski]

Wow.

[Valerie George]

This week. All week. So that feels pretty good.

[Perry Romanowski]

You guys had snow a couple of weeks ago.

[Valerie George]

We did, but now we are living in the sun.

[Perry Romanowski]

There you go.

[Valerie George]

Wearing our sunscreen.

[Perry Romanowski]

Not here in Chicago. It's like 40, but 40 is not bad for February.

[Valerie George]

40 is actually pretty good. Well, hopefully winter's over for you. Hopefully winter doesn't come back for us. Let's head over to some beauty news.

[Perry Romanowski]

All right. What you see, Valerie, we have our.

[Valerie George]

First lawsuit, at least on the show this year. Popped up.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, yeah? Who. Who got sued?

[Valerie George]

Well, no surprise. It's a big brand. A class action lawsuit has been filed against Mel Organics, which is actually owned by Proctor and Gamble, alleging that their rosemary mint scalp and strengthening hair oil may cause hair loss. And that risk has been failed. Has failed to be disclosed to consumers. And the complaint was filed in Illinois. I feel like there's a lot of lawsuits in Illinois by plaintiff Georgina Gomez accuses the companies of misrepresenting the product as safe without adequate testing or warnings. And the lawsuit doesn't claim that the product's inherently defective, but it argues that consumers were misled into purchasing it under false pretenses.

[Perry Romanowski]

And what could that be?

[Valerie George]

I don't know. But this case, I'm not surprised. I mean, I, I'm not intimate with this product, but sure, there's just a growing number of lawsuits and it almost is like a trend over misleading marketing claims. And so what happens is, you know, if the product is just not great, it's really hard to, to make a lawsuit over that. But if they can say they were misled, it harmed me, I wouldn't have bought it if I knew it was going to be something different. They definitely have a little bit more basis to seek punitive damages and restitution and all that kind of stuff. So big problem. Not surprised they're not going to go after tiny brands. I, you know, I don't want to say Georgina's bought products from other brands that maybe have done the same thing in the past, but they didn't have as deep pockets as Procter and Gamble. So of course, I just think, you know, the bigger brands get the short end of the stick.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, that. What did they say here? I'm, I'm looking at the product. They have biotin in it, which, that, you know, that doesn't grow hair. But there is worthless. Yeah, there. But there's like a belief out in consumers that biotin is going to help grow hair, but that, that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't see anything in this product that is. Would, would cause any hair loss for sure. Right.

[Valerie George]

Maybe it's not that it caused hair loss per se, but maybe it's about. They didn't feel the product delivered on what it was going to do.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, they alleged that it may cause hair loss and they didn't disclose this risk. That's what the lawsuit says.

[Valerie George]

Well, may cause is different from causing. I would just like to say, and I think that's really hard to prove that a product does that.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. Especially this is just like a bunch of oils. So, I mean, I don't think it's going to help grow your hair. But their claims that they make, they say what? Nourish and strengthen. Okay. It's smooth split ends. Yeah, it'll do that. Soothing the scalp. Probably safe for all hair types. Okay. And by women. For women. Yeah. I don't. Somebody must have put it in their hair and they're like, oh, it made my hair fall out and let me sue somebody.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, well, it's not the first time we've seen a hair loss lawsuit. We've seen it with Deva Curl. We've seen it with Wen. We've seen it with Olaplex. So it's like. Yeah, it's just like, to me, the old default, because you really can't prove it didn't, and you can't prove it did. And so this will probably just settle out of quartz.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, it's just so weird that. I mean, this is just like a natural oil thing. I could see a little bit the conditioners, like the Wen product. I don't believe the Wen product caused hair loss either. However, it had some cationic conditioners in it. So if you're leaving that in your hair, that could cause irritation. And I could see a rationale there. This is just oils.

[Valerie George]

But what about essential oils?

[Perry Romanowski]

I'm not seeing those in there, but, yeah, soybean oil.

[Valerie George]

Maybe it says the product has essential oils in it. But the thing is, this is owned by a big company. They're not going to market without doing.

[Perry Romanowski]

Safety testing, and they're not gonna lose a lawsuit based on this either. So good luck to the plaintiffs.

[Valerie George]

Oh, goodness. I wonder if they're laughing in the boardroom like we're laughing now.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, well, you know what I saw? I saw an article. This is out of the University of Texas A and M. All right.

[Valerie George]

A prestigious institution. Maybe a stretch, but it's a great university.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure, sure. They say what you should know about toxins in your beauty products.

[Valerie George]

All right. They have been also a little downgraded from great university because if they are publishing this trash.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure. So. Well, this article from the Texas A and M, they highlight the pervasive use of phthalates. Pervasive plasticize in the various cosmetics and personal care products. They say these chemicals serve multiple functions, like preventing cracking in nail polish, reducing stiffness, and hairsprays and prolonging fragrances. However, phthalates are recognized as endocrine disruptors and reproductive toxicants with the potential to links to metabolic disorder, inflammation, and certain cancers. Whoa. And then they talk about the exposure. And they say specifically, if you look for fragrance or perfume, that could mean that there's going to be phthalates in there. And they say to minimize exposures, consumers are advised to read products labels carefully and look out for phthalate free.

[Valerie George]

Anyone can write phthalate free on a product. It doesn't mean anything.

[Perry Romanowski]

I saw this Article. This seems like chemical fear mongering to me because first of all, cosmetics don't use phthalates that much.

[Valerie George]

They don't. The only one I know of is diethyl phthalate and it's used predominantly in the perfume industry, but it is completely safe for use. Everyone from the fda, the sccs, the cir, which are all the European Commission, they've all looked at diethyl phthalate and said safer use. And guess what, Perry? If there are phthalates that aren't safe for use, are we allowed to use them?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, you can't use them. So that's the thing. Anything that was harmful, any phthalates which are proven to be harmful are not allowed. This article also ignores the fact that dose matters, you know, in the cosmetic exposure that you get from any phthalate that might be in a hairspray or nail polish has not been shown to be a level that would cause any harm. The article also just kind of implies that consumers should avoid phthalates without acknowledging that something like dep, which is the ingredient that's mostly used, it's not been linked to any significant health aspect. So I, I don't know. I see this kind of chemophobia being published by university researchers and it's just, it's unfortunate.

[Valerie George]

It's unfortunate that they have posted this slander piece or libel piece. Libel because it's literary, I guess.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right.

[Valerie George]

It's unfortunate that they've posted this libel piece because they obviously didn't do their fact checking.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I can imagine. This was just somebody at the university, some undergrad or maybe grad student who.

[Valerie George]

Uses the Yuka app and they're like, God, all these cosmetics are poisonous.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right? Or the EWG or something. And they don't really know how products are made or how often ingredients are used. And they didn't ask a cosmetic chemist because if they did, then they wouldn't have an article to write.

[Valerie George]

Or like basic, ask a toxicologist or something or.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes.

[Valerie George]

So ridiculous. Well, very disappointing that they wrote that.

[Perry Romanowski]

It just goes to show you that you can't always trust the article spin that you get from university researchers about different industries. Now, we can talk about the cosmetic industry because that's our expertise, but I imagine the same thing happens with food additives, with the petroleum industry, with paints and coatings. You know, you gotta get the experts in the industry, get some input for them before you start putting out articles to scare consumers.

[Valerie George]

I think industry perspective is very valuable. And in hiring people from academia, which, you know, I worked at an organization that did that sometimes it was often a huge shock for them how things actually worked and how things actually happened outside of the comfort of a university laboratory.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, Valerie, I saw in our comments we got some follow ups.

[Valerie George]

We do have some follow ups. Amy from the last couple episodes ago, 386, she actually wrote the question about the Zo products where they had two 4% hydroquinone creams. We were like, whoa, how did Amy even get these creams? Because they shouldn't be allowed in retail. She wrote us to clarify how I acquired a 4% hydroquinone Zeo product. I purchased purchased it from a medi cosmetic spa clinic. This clinic employs nurses who administer injectables and the facility operates under the supervision of a physician. My understanding is that this medical oversight is the reason they are able to dispense prescription strength 4% Zeo products. Now I'm still confused because a consumer can't just walk into a Medispa and buy it. It requires a prescription. Right.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I mean if the physician is running the thing and he maybe he give a blank. I don't know, maybe he signs a prescription things with his signature and they just add. Yeah, it does sound a little sketchy. I don't know.

[Valerie George]

Well, I, I wouldn't buy products that way, that's for sure.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, another one from Brianna from episode 385. She talked about one of the. We talked. This is about fragrance free hair care. And one of the ones that she suggested was Euphora. And she says it's not well known because it's only sold in salon professionals. Okay.

[Valerie George]

I know Aurora, I know the team very well.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, okay. Excellent. And it says there is absolutely no artificial fragrance in those products. And there's also no water. What? As the first ingredient. Is aloe vera really a hair care product without water? I don't think so because this is what happens. The first ingredient is aloe vera. What's happening here is they are mislabeling their product. They don't know how to label it because what they're doing is using aloe vera extract and then they're putting that in. And aloe vera extract is, you know what, 99% water. So they're actually putting in water, calling it aloe vera extract. And they think some people in our industry think that this is okay to do. It's not okay to do. It's not fun following the labeling laws. But there. Some of the smaller brands or professional brands will do this even though it's not correct.

[Valerie George]

It's actually a very common practice to rehydrate the aloe vera. Aloe vera leaf juice. Very common practice. Yeah. Now, I think the reason we didn't mention Euphora during that question is because someone wanted fragrance free products. But even though a brand doesn't use artificial fragrance and they're using natural fragrances, that's equally as, you know, safe or equally as dangerous as using a synthetic fragrance. And I would actually argue that natural fragrances are less safe because of the numerous compounds they contain.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I completely agree that natural. The thing about artificial fragrance is that it's not coming necessarily from plants. We have a lot of control over what the molecules are. But when you're getting just a natural fragrance, you're just taking something from a plant and you're getting everything smell that you want and you're getting everything else, and you could easily be allergic to something like that. So that's. I guess that's why we didn't mention it.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. But I will just say I do really like the Euphoric line. I like their fragrances. You know, I don't know that they're all natural, but I, you know, I really do enjoy them. I think they have, you know, a lot of great care products and they do have a big following. So if you haven't tried them and you're like, oh, what's euphoria?

[Perry Romanowski]

Check them out and if you have any sway there, tell them, you know, their products do have water. That should be the first ingredient.

[Valerie George]

Oh, goodness. Well, let's answer some beauty questions.

[Perry Romanowski]

We got our first question from a patron. This is Sammy from Patreon. She says, hi, beauty brains. New patron here.

[Valerie George]

Oh, thank you, Sammy.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, thank you. I was wondering if you think it would be okay to mix my chemical exfoliant with a hydrating serum to dilute how strong the exfoliant is? For reference, I use Prequel's Multi Acid Milk Peel and Prequel's Multi Quenching Plumping Hydration Serum. I also thought maybe I would just mix it with another milky toner. Which do you think would be better? I. I wanted to start using an exfoliant more than two times a week, but this one stings my face, so I don't want to ruin my skin barrier. And just for clarification, Valerie, she isn't talking about mixing the whole bottle. She's just saying mixing it in her hand and then using it.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I actually don't really like the Prequel products, so I probably would give them away. But I do actually like one of their SPFs, but the rest of the stuff's not for me. But I think this is a perfectly fine thing to do. In looking at the plumping hydration serum ingredients, they're very innocuous. There's nothing that can't be at a Super duper low pH. There's nothing that's going to spontaneously complex with any acids and cause a challenge. So you certainly could dilute the strength of your peel by diluting it with something else. So, for example, I don't know how much glycolic acid is in the multi acid milk peel, but if you were to, say, use half in your hand, the multi acid milk peel, and half this plumping hydration serum, you would be cutting the glycolic acid percentage in half. Now, I honestly don't know if that's gonna help, because I don't know what is making you sting. It's probably the glycolic acid. And just in general, you may still have some stinging, but it could be worth trying.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I think it's a reasonable move. I don't like the move of, like, mixing the bottles together and then using it over time. But if you're just mixing it in your hand before you're using the product right away, that's. That's good. The reason I don't like mixing the bottles together is because that hasn't been stability tested that way. And it could break down over time, but in the short amount of time that you would use it on your face during use, that would be perfectly fine. Now, it does raise one question, though, Valerie. What is something you wouldn't want to mix it with?

[Valerie George]

The acid or the hydration serum?

[Perry Romanowski]

I guess the acid. Yeah, the hydration serum. I think you can mix with anything but the acid.

[Valerie George]

You wouldn't want to mix it with a base.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, Right.

[Valerie George]

Like sodium bicarbonate. And that would make, like, a foaming volcano on your face.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes, something like that. Or like a.

[Valerie George]

Well, sunless Tanner. You were right. You wouldn't want to mix it with sunless tanner because the acid's complex with the dha, rendering it ineffective.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right. So. But most everything else would be okay. And the other thing is, like, the acid and the electrolytes in there might break down the emulsions of some of certain creams or whatever, but, you know, it's probably not that big a deal.

[Valerie George]

Well, for putting it right on your face, I was even thinking about that. The quench plumping hydration serum has acrylate C1030 alkyl acrylate cross polymer, which turns into a gel when you put a little sodium hydroxide in it. Well, if you lower the ph, that gel disappears. So probably not a big deal because it's more of like a texture enhancer. It's not going to change the plumping, hydration performance, but there's no health consequences from that. It's only, as you mentioned, like the product. Product breaking down.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. So there could be aesthetic problems, but shouldn't be a problem.

[Valerie George]

Our next question is also from a patron on Patreon, Lisa. She says, is using a topical minoxidil for women safe to put on the eyebrows?

[Perry Romanowski]

Putting minoxidil on your eyebrows? Well, just so everyone knows, minoxidil is one of it is actually, is the only topically approved treatment over the counter hair loss.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, that's over the counter. Everything else has to be prescription.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, right, exactly. And it has also been demonstrated to be effective for a lot of consumers, although only about 67 or about 2,2/3 of people who use it will find a benefit to it. So a lot of people won't. But, you know, it is an ingredient that can work. Now, I know it works on the top of your head, but for your eyebrows.

[Valerie George]

Well, there is some literature out there that actually has looked at the efficacy on eyebrows and they said, yeah, it works. It actually works. Also on the beard. I was thinking of putting it on my little mustache and seeing if I couldn't get my mustache to come in early. You know, happens to most women. I'm just kidding. Wouldn't that be funny just in time for Halloween. But yeah, so they say, you know, it totally works. Now, totally working is different from totally safe. And you know, we couldn't find anything that was like a smoking gun to where you can't put it on your eyebrows. And some dermatologists and other experts say it's totally fine, but you definitely would not want to get it near your eyes. So you have to be very careful because it is a thin solution and so it can drip into your eyes. You are not allowed to put it on your eyelashes. It's not safe to get in your eyes at all.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. And I think the thing, the important thing to know is that there are some dermatologists who do already prescribe this off label. So at least for them, they think it's safe enough to do that. So for what it's worth, it's probably not a high risk from a health standpoint, but again, you should probably consult the dermatologist before you do this, do.

[Valerie George]

You think there's anyone who's like, I want more back hair, and they put it on their back?

[Perry Romanowski]

I think I just had some go down my back. That explains my back. There must be some sort of tool or something you can use to, like, strip off the hair on your back, right?

[Valerie George]

I mean, I guess you could go to a waxing salon.

[Perry Romanowski]

That sounds like a lot of work.

[Valerie George]

I have an idea. How about you go to the Medi spa and get a electrolysis or, like, laser on the hairs?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, or I could just wear a T shirt. Oh, Perry, you know, that's my sunscreen strategy. I should tell you, when I was out in Belize, we went scuba diving and we put on the sunscreen. I'm putting it all on, I'm reapplying, and I got burned to hell anyway.

[Valerie George]

I know. You're very right.

[Perry Romanowski]

That stuff does not. I don't know. It does not work. I was. I was reapplying. I was putting on the waterproofing stuff. You know, I don't know.

[Valerie George]

Well, if you put on sunscreen like Mr. Cosmetic Chemist puts on any moisturizer, I can tell you that you did not put on enough.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, well, I. I know how much you're supposed to put on, and I put on a fair amount. But I think as you just hop in that water and it doesn't matter it says waterproof or water resistant or whatever, it's gone away pretty quick.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, that was your mistake.

[Perry Romanowski]

That was. Yeah. But, you know, the plus side is the sunburn made me forget about how itchy the bug bites were.

[Valerie George]

Oh, that's good.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Oh, poor Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

I'm always trying to be an optimist.

[Valerie George]

Oh, goodness. Well, let's head to our next question from Renata.

[Perry Romanowski]

Renata says, hi, Beauty Brains. Hope you are doing well. I have a question for you. I saw this study in Nature about lipid loss from hair due to the use of surfactants. How much damage does this really represent? Thank you in advance. And so this article was from Nature in 2019. She didn't provide a link. 2018, titled, Prevention of Lipid loss from hair by surface Internal modification. And it was published in the open access journal Scientific Reports. So the question is, do surfactants remove lipids?

[Valerie George]

Well, I think this was an interesting study because I'm not sure if these people work in the industry or not.

[Perry Romanowski]

I'm going to say they don't, based on the study.

[Valerie George]

It feels kind of like an obvious answer, and I wouldn't necessarily Think a study study would need to be done because at the end of the day, surfactants have a water loving portion, they have an oil loving portion and their role is to pick up debris from the hair and then be rinsed from your hair with water. And you have, on the surface of the hair you have lipids that are attached, they're bound lipids. And then you have free lipids that are loose and they're not attached to anything.

[Perry Romanowski]

So the bottom lipids are like 18 mea.

[Valerie George]

It's pretty much 18 mea, especially on the outer layer of your hair that's the predominant lipid. But then you have loose lipids, like different cholesterols, squalene, stuff from your seeds. Ceramides. Exactly. And so I could see where surfactants would strip some of this from the hair because they're loose. Now if you chemically modify your hair, you have a loss of 18 mea, cuticle damage. So a lot of the lipids are already gone, which gives the surfactants more exposure to the hair and more exposure to loose lipids. So again, I would not be surprised that this would happen.

[Perry Romanowski]

It's really what shampoos do. I don't know why this was a whole article. Yeah. So think also the conclusion from this article is that you should use products to mitigate that lipid loss. If you don't like how your hair feels when it's, it's stripped of lipids. And think that's what hair conditioning is all about. Right?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. They actually looked at applying different things to the hair and saw if it impacted the difference. Right. So yeah, I totally agree. This is, you know, not an AHA type of study. And you know, you can over wash your hair now. I know you had the most washed head of hair some years ago.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Okay. I would guess you probably didn't have too many lipids on your hair, but it probably didn't matter because your hair was short and it probably grew relatively fast and so you could kind of replenish some of that hair grows about half an inch per month. And I think on a normal user basis, I would guess that like the article said, if you're just washing your hair like a normal person, you're probably going to be fine. But if you do excessive washing with really extreme cleansers all the time, like, yeah, that's probably an issue. So, you know, just don't use a really crazy shampoo seven days a week or 14 times a week.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, they talked about, you know, choosing a gentler surfactants I don't know how much that's helpful to consumers because you can make a gentle shampoo using sodium lauryl sulfate if you have the right secondary surfactants and things. So.

[Valerie George]

And on the contrary, you can make a really stripping, damaging, sulfate free shampoo, which I have done. And we failed color safe testing and made the hair more damaged and it was like, oops. I thought, you know, it was going to be totally fine. So you can't judge a shampoo by its label.

[Perry Romanowski]

And as far as how much damage does this really do, you know, lipid loss from surfactants, it's real. But, you know, unless you're doing excessive washing, this is not going to be a hugely damaging thing based on, you know, compared to other stuff like bleaching your hair or coloring your hair or perming.

[Valerie George]

Exactly.

[Perry Romanowski]

Look at this. Valerie, we've got an audio question from John.

[Valerie George]

Whoa. Thanks, John.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yay. He wants to know a little bit about Aveeno.

[C]

Hi, Perry and Valerie. I hope all is well with you both and the kitties are doing okay. I have a question and a prediction for you. Aveeno is what I would call a legacy brand. And I know you have said on a few episodes these brands can be trusted to put safe and efficacious products on the market. I have a few concerns about the Aveeno Daily moisturizing cream, which comes in a tub. First, this formulation is likely 60% water. Second, it's in a tub, welcoming contamination. And third, the preservative package looks a bit lackluster, listing only two preservatives. Is the preservative package appropriate for this product? Is Aveeno chancing a recall by not having an appropriate preservative package? I would love to get your thoughts on this product. Thanks so much. And Valerie, since you and Perry have your predictions for 2025, I've got one for you. I predict, Valerie, that you are going to take over the skin care ingredient series for cosmetic professionals at UCLA from Rebecca Gadbury in the next year or so. Can you confirm this? All right, guys, have a great day, and thanks again.

[Perry Romanowski]

All right, excellent question, but he also had a prediction. Valerie, there's. I guess you're part of this UCLA program for cosmetic science, right?

[Valerie George]

Well, I'm part of the University of California science system. They have many campuses and I teach at the University of California, Riverside.

[Perry Romanowski]

Gotcha. Well, there is another class that has been taught forever at ucla. Yep, Skin, raw materials and stuff. Well, John predicts that maybe Valerie, because the person who does it is retiring. She's doing her last one. She predicts that Valerie might take that over.

[Valerie George]

Well, that would be really cool. But I think they hand selected somebody to continue that, the person who's retiring. And it's interesting because I'm actually surprised UCLA allowed that. Usually you have to apply to be an instructor, even in their extension program. I had to apply at UC Riverside. I didn't just get to say I'm teaching this. I got picked out of a pool of candidates. But I think it would be really fun. I mean, I do know a lot about ingredients. One of my actual roles at a very large brand, I was the technical director, and I was responsible for, like, ingredient technologies and ingredient assessments. And I know a lot, probably too much about ingredients.

[Perry Romanowski]

All right, well, if anyone at UCLA is listening. All right, let's get to John's question. He's right. We do give the advice that if it comes from a big brand, and Aveeno is produced by Johnson and Johnson, that's definitely a big company. Big brand. If it comes from a big brand, you probably have to figure they've done their safety testing and the product is safe. But he shows this product, which is a cream, and I'm looking at the ingredient list, and he's right. This is not what I would call a robust preservative system. It used ethyl hexylglycerin, which is barely a preservative. P anisic acid. Again, barely, and topped off with a little caprilock glycol. These are not robust preservatives, but. So what's Aveeno doing here?

[Valerie George]

Well, it's interesting that this cream. First of all, I found it interesting that this ingredient list can yield a cream in a jar, because usually if a cream is in a jar, it's pretty substantive. Right. It's not going to be kind of like a thin lotion. So I'm looking at this ingredient list with you, Perry, and I see isopropyl myritate and cetyl alcohol and a little shea butter, which is providing the emollient aspect. And it has a very lightweight emulsifier. Potassium cetyl phosphate. You can make, you know, butters out of this, but it's like an invisible emulsifier. It's kind of hard to explain. It's still really light in texture.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

But they also have carbomer in here. Oh, of course.

[Perry Romanowski]

The carbon.

[Valerie George]

They also have carbonar in there.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Carburetor is the same as the acrylate. C1030alkyl acrylate, cross Polish polymer I told you guys about. That's actually a carbonar as well. And it creates this gel to kind of like make everything really thick when you raise the pH. But still, this is kind of like a really lightweight cream. And so I'm thinking, Perry, it has a glycerin in it, and it's the second ingredient. Usually glycerin can be a second ingredient. It's at a very tiny percent. But what if it were at a higher percent?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, if. If they put glycerin at a high enough level that glycerin, what it will do is it can tie up water. And we have this concept called water activity. So if you reduce the water activity enough in a formula, that will make it self preserved too. And I suspect that's what's going on here. That's kind of how honey. Honey is like pure sugar and a.

[Valerie George]

Little bit of water, which seems like perfect bacteria food, right?

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. Except honey doesn't have enough water to grow to allow for growth of bacteria and stuff. And so you have honey that's, you know, thousands of years old that hasn't been contaminated, even though it seems like it's the perfect thing for it. But in this formula, yeah, they probably have 60% water, but they probably have 20% glycerin, and that's gonna at least 20% glycerin. So that's gonna tie up a lot of water and it's gonna make it much harder for any kind of microbes to grow.

[Valerie George]

But still, it's kind of like, weird to put it in a jar. I wouldn't want to, like, dip my fingers into this.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I don't know. The tub choice seems an interesting one. However, I will say I have no doubt that Johnson and Johnson did their homework on this one. And they've done stability testing on it, and they've done their preservative efficacy testing on it. And so while it doesn't look very robust to me, I would have faith that they did it because they, they would be opening themselves up for a lawsuit. And, you know, you can see everybody just sues anybody about anything. They would be easily opening themselves up to a lawsuit if there was a problem here.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. And I think that's the last thing they want after all the JJ talc stuff for sure, right? Yeah, I think they probably did beyond just a preservative efficacy test. That's where you take a pro product and you intentionally contaminate it and see how quickly your preservative system can kill everything that you added to It, I bet you they put it on stability and then did a preservative efficacy test afterwards. I bet you they also did testing where real users have gone in and dip their hands in and they do evaluation from there. This wasn't a, in my opinion, it likely wasn't a quickie, you know, launch to market, especially with a, like you said, kind of a weaker preservation system. Even though we probably have this glycerin, it's like still a big leap of faith for something you put your, your paws into.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, whenever I did stability testing over at the company I work for, we always did a preservative efficacy test on the initial samples and then we did a 45 degree stability ones for eight weeks and we do that preservative efficacy on those. So we always. Because 45C for eight weeks is about approximately one year at room temperature. That was always kind of what we figured. And so we say, oh, does it still last after a year? And you know, that was our requirement for every batch that we made.

[Valerie George]

Wow. Even if you just change the fragrance, you guys would do that?

[Perry Romanowski]

We did, yes.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. That's really awesome. A lot of people just write bridge letters and stuff like that where it's like, well, we just changed a fragrance. Fragrance. It's probably not a big deal. We don't need to test the other stuff.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, I used to like to joke that Alberto Culver led the industry in our ability to regulate ourselves because we were doing so much stuff, which is just ridiculous until you guys bought.

[Valerie George]

St. Ives, who was using Swiss herbs from. Not Switzerland.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, not Switzerland. So that's what happens when you buy a brand. Alright. Speaking of bran, we got a question.

[Valerie George]

From Jan. Our last question of the day. Hello. First off, I enjoy your podcast and listen to everyone and learn so much. Thank you. My question is, can you tell me about the best websites to be able to plug in the chemicals I just learned I'm allergic to? To find out what products they're in, I was given one called Camp. But I know there has to be something more thorough. I need something that offers beauty products to household products, possibly even clothing because I'm dealing with a terrible chronic rash problem and really need help. Thank you for your time and help.

[Perry Romanowski]

Jan. Well, this is a tough problem and unfortunately I don't have anything for clothing or household products. And even in the beauty product area, there's not one website that would list everything out there. However, the one that I think is kind of closest to this is called Inky Decoder.

[Valerie George]

I Think they're pretty good. Sometimes I can't find the Inkey list of a product that I'm working with and they'll have the Inkey list on their website and it's pretty up to date and accurate. I'd say a couple years ago it was probably not as reliable, but they have so much stuff on there now.

[Perry Romanowski]

They do have a lot of product, but they don't have every product. So. But, but what they do have is you can search, I believe you can search by ingredient.

[Valerie George]

You can.

[Perry Romanowski]

There's an industry AI called Grapple AI and they search through everything that's out there. But you know this. It costs like 200amonth to be part of. So it's more of. Yeah, it's more of an industry tool. So it's not really consumer facing. But I think Inky Decoder has, it has a lot of, a lot of stuff there. I'll put the link in the show notes.

[Valerie George]

I also want to say I hate, you know, being like support big brands but on the household side and laundry side. Now I don't know about textiles, but for sure on like household laundry, that kind of stuff. Procter and Gamble does a really great job of writing all of their ingredients in their household cleaners, including all the fragrance components, which is not legally required of them. They have a really huge label transparency program. And so it's kind of painstaking because it's not necessarily like a search database. At least you can say like, oh, you know, I know I buy Tide or what. I don't know if Proctor Gamble owns.

[Perry Romanowski]

Tide or what they do to Tide.

[Valerie George]

Okay, all right. You can go to the website and they'll actually disclose everything to you and you can kind of rifle through it. So not necessarily convenient but you know.

[Perry Romanowski]

It'S possible Unilever has something like that too.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, maybe I'm thinking of unilateral. I think both of them are doing it actually.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah, they do. Big, big companies like that. They have gone online and they put their ingredient lists online. There's no, as far as I know, there's no easy search thing. You could just search for the ingredient. So you'd have to look at the product and say, is this okay for me? But you can do that.

[Valerie George]

Well, Jan, hopefully that was helpful to give you a little bit of a, at least skincare source and then you can manually pick through some of the bigger brands and see if that helps. And good luck with your rash. I know that's really painful, but as.

[Perry Romanowski]

Far as like government sponsored things I know in Europe there's the Cosmeal website and that's just kind of for looking up ingredients though, right?

[Valerie George]

Yeah, that's not product focused. So it'll tell you more. Like if you're curious about an ingredient, what it does, why it's in there, you know, why it's allowed. But sure, it's not going to help you in the finished product realm.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, exactly. But if you're curious about ingredients, cosmeleurope EU is a place to go again. I'll put both of those in the show Notes. And speaking of notes, do you hear the tones of the closing music?

[Valerie George]

It's time for us to go. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, we've begin been getting more and more comments on Spotify, so keep them coming. It's fun.

[Valerie George]

That's great.

[Perry Romanowski]

And if you have a question, you can just record it on your smartphone like John did and email to thebeautybrainsmail.com so we can put your voice out the air or you can just fill in the form that's in the show notes on this episode. Also, the Beauty Brains are on Patreon. And if you want to ensure that your question gets answered for sure, become a patron, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. We give a higher priority to the Patreon questions and we also give you a transcript and sometimes we plan events.

[Valerie George]

Also follow us on our various social media accounts. I've been killing it on Instagram.

[Perry Romanowski]

I saw all the comments and everything too.

[Valerie George]

We're doing pretty good on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, we're at. We're the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page and we have a TikTok, unfortunately. I was hoping that band would stay.

[Perry Romanowski]

But I did not stay, incidentally, if I was talking over it on Instagram. We're at The Beauty Brains 2018.

[Valerie George]

Oh, did I say that wrong?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, you did not say it wrong. I was just talking while you said it, so I thought I. Oh, okay.

[Valerie George]

All right, all right, all right. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[Perry Romanowski]

Thanks everyone. Kittens.