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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Perry and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 422. I'm your host, Perry Romanoski and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie.
- [00:29]
B
Hi. Hi Perry.
- [00:31]
A
Valerie, on today's show we got lots of questions, so let's see what they're gonna be. What are our thoughts on the hair multiplier from Le Jardin? Is that French? Jardin.
- [00:44]
B
I think it is.
- [00:45]
A
There you go. We'll also look at Paula's Choice's new longevity serum. What's going on with leaked labs from the lipstick lesbians? And are various hair products bad for curls? But first, some of that chit chat. Valerie, what are you up to these days?
- [01:05]
B
Well, not much. I'm preparing for a trip to California next week. I have to be in production somewhere brand. I did a project for their cash in their chips and so although the product was finished a long time ago, they said now you need to come. And so I'll be there. I'm getting ready for travel.
- [01:24]
A
It's fun. The life of a cosmetic chemist. Valerie, I got home last night like at one o' clock in the morning.
- [01:31]
B
Uh huh. Where were you today?
- [01:32]
A
It was late. I was, you know, I went and met one of my friends from high school and sometimes he and I will just, you know, sit around and chat for three hours like old women.
- [01:42]
B
Inane. Chit chat.
- [01:44]
A
It is a name. Chit chat. I practiced at a name. Chit chat. But so I get home at 1 and then the heat miser is in my house. So apparently my wife let him in.
- [01:55]
B
Aw.
- [01:56]
A
And then I was gonna put him outside because I know he wakes up early. I just got home so I put him outside and he just runs back in the house. So then I'm like, okay, I'll let you sleep. But then 5 o' clock in the morning he's up. So I'm working on four hours of sleep. Thanks Heat miser.
- [02:12]
B
Oh my gosh. Well, look at you. I thought you weren't gonna let him come in. And here you are. He's warmed up to you guys.
- [02:20]
A
Well, you know, next week he's not going to be able to come in the house because we're baby, we're cat sitting for my sister in law's cat and we don't want to like mix the outdoor cats with their cat, you know.
- [02:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, you got to be careful with that, we actually are headed to in cosmetics in Paris in a couple weeks. We're bringing Baby C along with us, which will be interesting. We're visiting some family in Germany beforehand, and I'll get to pick up some skincare products I ordered a long time ago, which we've talked about on the show. Yep. But anyway, Doug the cat has to get boarded, and it'll be his first time in boarding. But he just loves people, so hopefully they give him a lot of attention. But we have to get this special feline test for him. I. I've only had dogs in recent years, so that's news for me.
- [03:06]
A
Feline fso or something like. Something like that?
- [03:09]
B
Something like that, yeah.
- [03:10]
A
Right, right. But. Well, that's fun. If I lived closer, you know, I would cat sit for you, but I wish you could.
- [03:18]
B
You know, I actually thought, like, would Perry love to own Doug? Because, I mean, I do love him. He's our lab cat, but we can't mingle him with Butch and Frank. And.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah.
- [03:28]
B
You know, he's so social. It's crazy. Like, some cats will be like, pet me. Oh, just kidding. Don't. Don't pet me. You know, hiss at you. But Doug is like, no, pet me. He even lets Baby C yank on his ears.
- [03:43]
A
Well, you know, we have a cat that looks just like him called Stripers.
- [03:47]
B
Okay.
- [03:47]
A
And Stripers likes he lets you pet him, but if you pet him for too long, then he starts hissing at you.
- [03:54]
B
Yeah. Doug is not like that at all. I also will be. I thought I would put this out there for the Beauty Brains community. I will be teaching a continuing education program course for the Society of Cosmetic Chemists on hair in May in New York City right before the New York Suppliers Day show.
- [04:17]
A
Well, that's exciting, because I'm also going to be at that show, so I'll actually get to see you.
- [04:21]
B
Oh, wow. Yay. Maybe we could do, like, a Beauty Brains meetup.
- [04:26]
A
I think we could do that.
- [04:27]
B
Do you think there's people in New York City that listen to our show?
- [04:30]
A
I don't know. If you're in New York City and you listen, let us know. Yeah.
- [04:34]
B
I mean, presumably, it's the largest city in the United States, so.
- [04:38]
A
That's right. I. I suspect there are a few people there.
- [04:41]
B
Statistically probable. But I would love to extend the invitation to our brains community. If you are a licensed salon professional or not licensed, and you just have a real interest in the science of hair, how hair claims testing is done, the science of hair color, scalp. We Also delve into scalp biology in it's a 9 to 5 course on Monday, the 18th of May, and the cost is, I think, $430 to attend, but well worth it when you think about all the knowledge you gain being able to learn about hair biology, scalp biology, and how products are formulated. So you'll be able to understand why certain conditioning agents are in conditioners and why they're there and maybe why they're not in shampoos and all that type of stuff. So it can get a little science heavy at times, but I think it's definitely great for even the non scientists.
- [05:34]
A
Yeah, well, Valerie is an excellent instructor also.
- [05:37]
B
Oh, you're too kind.
- [05:40]
A
Hey, let's head on over to some beauty news.
- [05:47]
B
There was a lot of stuff going on this week.
- [05:50]
A
You know, there were. So there are just a few articles that I saw. First of all, you were quoted in Women's Health magazine, an article there about silicones.
- [05:59]
B
I, I could talk all day. So the article was basically like, our silicones bad for hair. Because, yeah, this myth just keeps perpetuating around and I just like to set the record straight because silicones are such a broad class of materials and just. And to say all are bad for hair. Absolutely not true. And it was a really good talk.
- [06:20]
A
Why do you think that came up?
- [06:22]
B
I think it. Well, I don't know why it came up recently, but I think the perception is silicones build up on hair and then they clog your hair follicles and then you, Your hair breaks off and you don't grow hair and all those things. But actually, I've looked at over 7,000 scalps under magnification. I did this project, and it wasn't even just under magnification. It was with many different instruments. And very few people actually have extensive buildup on their hair from product. And some silicones do stick. Stick to the hair, but they do wash off over time. And you actually want them to stick to hair for a short period of time, otherwise they won't do what they do. But people just think, oh, they, they stick. And then they build up and build up. And I think that's not fair. Also, some silicones just rinse down the drain or volatilize into the air.
- [07:10]
A
Sure.
- [07:11]
B
And so to say all silicones are bad for hair is. Is not true. Silicones are also under fire for their environmental fate because they have more bio. Biodegradability. But silicones actually do degrade in the environment. It's just not from bacteria. So I also think they get A bad rap there.
- [07:26]
A
It does seem to me that this is the kind of ingredient that salon stylist professionals would embrace because it's really high techy and it's really effective. But it seems to me that the anti silicone stuff actually comes more from the stylists.
- [07:42]
B
Well, believe it or not, Perry, I do work for many types of brands. As the listeners may know. I have my own R and D lab. I work for salon professional brands, mass market brands, multinationals, pharmaceutical companies, all types of brands on the market. You've seen products that I've been involved in. And when I talk to a brand about what their free from requirements are, what their formulation restrictions are, believe it or not, the salon brands are never the ones who say no silicones in our products. It really is, it really is a consumer demand because the salon brands, the products have to be really high performing. People are paying a lot of money and their hair has to look really amazing. And silicones are so multifunctional. You can get nice products without silicones. I don't think you can get one for one on par in every attribute that a silicone could offer. So I think there are certain functional silicones that definitely you can't substitute.
- [08:40]
A
I think if you're a cosmetic chemist and you're tasked with formulating the best working hair care production, you're gonna use silicones. Right. That's just because they're so good at what they do.
- [08:53]
B
Exactly. Well, thanks for reading my article.
- [08:56]
A
No problem. You know, another one I stumbled on was one published in the Independent, but it was this article about Professor Hannah Fry. It was there, it was a podcast with her and she was giving beauty advice.
- [09:10]
B
Well, she has really great looking skin from the photographs, so. So I could see why people would want beauty advice from her.
- [09:18]
A
She's a math guru, which I see in the article. They call it maths, remember, because in the UK they add that s that we don't use here. But she names her products and such and yeah, she looks great. And it was a fun conversation to listen to, but it made me think about this. When you hear a scientist give beauty advice, especially somebody who's not necessarily in the industry, that advice is just kind of what works for them. It's not really science based, it's more like personal based, actually. The advice that either you or I are giving is also like what works for us, but that's not really like science, it's just like what we like, you know?
- [10:05]
B
Well, to be fair, I step back a little from it and try to think, like, okay, maybe that's not great for my skin or my hair type. You know, there are certain brands that I think are like, too glycerin heavy. And, you know, but some people do like that stuff. At the end of the day, we always say, like, if you love it, use it. But I will say, yeah, I mean, if you don't have industry experience or you've never worked at a brand where you've seen a product life cycle go through, I think it is really hard to provide true and accurate information. Otherwise, you've just gotten it from the Internet. Right. And anyone can do that.
- [10:42]
A
Yeah. And a scientist will look at a topic and filter it through, you know, a science lens. But the stuff that, as I said in like a previous show, the stuff that's published about beauty products, I don't think it really qualifies as science because mostly what you're seeing is research that is supported by companies that are trying to sell stuff. And so while they're not out there lying and making stuff up, they aren't trying to figure out what's really absolutely true, which is what Science tries to figure out. What's true? Beauty science and cosmetic science tries to figure out. What can we say that's true? You know, or not lying. And this maybe will come up later when we're talking about panthenol, but I just kind of want to get it out there that if you're a consumer and you're getting advice about beauty products, it still mostly comes down to a personal feeling or choice about how you like the product or not. I mean, something could be a great product, but if it's. If you think it smells bad, you're not going to want to use it. It doesn't matter. There's plenty of other options.
- [11:48]
B
Speaking of smells bad, I mean, she recommended SkinCeutical CE Ferulic that smells like hot dog water. I don't know if you've actually ever smelled it. It's awful. It smells like a pack of Oscar Meyer wieners have been boiled in a pan and you dunked your face in that. But sticky.
- [12:06]
A
It's your scientific opinion that that one's. That suggestion by her is out there.
- [12:11]
B
Well, you know, it's interesting. This article named her Go to Products. And the scientific explanations actually weren't from Professor Fry. They were from other people. And, you know, for example, the skinceuticals product is, you know, one of the few serums on the market that works so fast. And it's like, okay, well, what basis Is that written on? But, you know, she did comment on a LED face mask, which is, you know, red light stuff, absolutely legit. And although there are peer reviewed studies about it and only certain red lights wavelengths are actually beneficial, I think to extrapolate it to a device being able to work is really tough unless the study has been with the device, which would have some kind of bias inherently because devices have so many degrees of different engineering capabilities and investment in them and you kind of don't know what you're getting unless you've done the work yourself as the brand.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah, red lights can work. It's been shown, like in a lab that a specific study worked. That doesn't mean every one on the market actually works. In fact, most of them probably are just like. Because the way the beauty industry works is like, well, if something gets good press and science press or whatever, everyone else is going to try to make a red light. And so someone just puts red diodes in and says, here's a mask. You know, is that really. Has it been tested? Has it. Was it produced the same way that whatever the studies were done was the same way? Almost never. Is that the case? Unless you're the company that paid for the study.
- [13:53]
B
Yeah. Well, the big news I saw this week, which everyone's seen it, so it's not news anymore, is that Henkel bought Olaplex. That rumor had been in the works for a while. We suspected that was going to happen and it did. $1.4 billion.
- [14:10]
A
Wow. Well, they. That brand starters cashed in, huh? Whoa. Wow. Well, I suppose L' Oreal bought K18, right? So they had their bonder stuff and now Henkel has their bonder stuff. Right. Olaplex has got a bonding thing, right?
- [14:27]
B
It does, yeah. And it's interesting because Henkel actually has a really nice hair portfolio as well. But certainly when it comes to competing with K18, I think that none of their brands competed in the same type of position or market space with salon professionals. So, yeah, super exciting for Olaplex because I think they were having a lot of challenges. Their stock has been underperforming. And so Henkel actually probably got a really good deal and maybe they can, they can do some stuff with it.
- [14:56]
A
One. Over a billion bucks. 1.4 billion. That's a lot of bucks for a brand. But congratulations to them.
- [15:03]
B
Yeah, great stuff. All right, Perry, you mentioned Panthenol. You were going to talk to me later about it. What is it?
- [15:10]
A
That's right.
- [15:11]
B
Have you changed your mind?
- [15:14]
A
Well, I wanted to point out, I stumbled on this study that was kind of a recent study. In fact, it was published in February of 2026 about panthenol, and it was published in the International Journal of Cosmetic Science. So the headline was Strengthening Benefits of Panthenol for Hair Mechanistic Evidence from Advanced Spectroscopic Techniques. I'm like, oh, what? You know, I know I've said on this show before that I'm unimpressed with panthenol. Now here's some real science behind panthenol. And I said, I have to bring this up to Valerie.
- [15:54]
B
So you think it's real science. How do you feel that the study is done by Procter and Gamble, the owners of Pantene, who have a stake in the panthenol game?
- [16:04]
A
Well, you know, that is a little bit of a red flag. But just because something's sponsored and paid for by a company doesn't necessarily mean the study is bollocks, as they say on the other side of the pond. But it just does make you think, like, well, what are they really. You have to think about what are they really trying to demonstrate here? And when you look into it a little deeper on this study, it seems like, you know, they're just saying they've collected evidence that panthenol does something. So my claim that, you know, I don't think panthenol really does much is. Would seem to be refuted here. But I think what happens there is like, my claim isn't exactly that panthenol doesn't do anything. My claim is more that if you have panthenol in your hair products and you have another sample which is exactly the same, but you leave the panthenol out, then you won't notice a difference. The user of the product won't notice a difference. And I think in looking at this study, I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think this study gives support that what I said is mistaken. So what they did here in this study is that, you know, and this was a hair study, they had cross sections of hair and they labeled it with radioactive, not radioactive, it's deuterium labeled panthenol. So that's just a way you can track the molecule if you label it with deuterium. And so then they treated hair fibers with this deuterium, and then they tested it through an NMR machine, which you could tell if there's deuterium where it is in the hair fiber. And in this study, they demonstrated that in Fact, panthenol did actually penetrate into the hair and go into the cortical regions of the hair. So it's just panthenol under the way this was treated, the panthenol actually stayed in the hair. And it didn't just live on the surface. It actually went under the surface and into the cuticle. So according to this study, the panthenol stays around. Now, what do you think my issue is with this study?
- [18:23]
B
You didn't like their control?
- [18:25]
A
No, that's not necessarily the big problem I have here.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah, I don't know. What is it?
- [18:32]
A
Well, the problem that I have here is that the way the thing was treated, it wasn't. They didn't. What they didn't do, which is what a consumer would do, is you have a shampoo and a conditioner that has panthenol in it, and then you would wash your hair and you condition your hair. And then does the panthenol stay on the hair through that treatment? That's not what was done here. What was done here? Yeah, yeah. They soaked it in a solution and then they ran the studies. And so that's kind of like, you know, tipping the scale there to. To get some demonstration of an effect, right?
- [19:10]
B
Well, yeah, I could see it would have been interesting. And, you know, I didn't read the full study, full transparency. You know, Perry read it, brought it up. So if you have any issues, take it up with him. But I could see where that's not necessarily real use case. But a lot of scientific research isn't like that. Right. They're just trying to show, like, is there anything? And I actually thought it was interesting they did this study in the way they did because actually, in 1960, there was a study done in the Journal of experimental and clinical Dermatology. It's in German, Die percutane absorption von tridium markurtum. Panthenol by mentioned here, which is basically percutaneous absorption of tritium labeled panthenol in humans and animals. They showed that panthenol was actually able to penetrate hair and skin, actually.
- [20:01]
A
Right. This just speaks more to a problem with the way cosmetic science is actually done and why I tend to be more skeptical of it. Because we have studies like this which can show a little something. This is answering the question, does. Well, does panthenol do anything? And that's an interesting question, which I think we already knew can penetrate or whatever. But what consumers want to know, what we really want to know is does having panthenol in Your hair products make the hair products better or not. And this study does not answer that.
- [20:36]
B
It is interesting. We actually were in a meeting the other day, Perry, you weren't on it, but it was a group of people saying, you know, that any talks that are going on should have like a direct application to formulation. And sometimes though, that's just the way it doesn't work. I think, I don't think this study was bad. I actually found it interesting that they're trying to figure out, does panthenol go in? Where is it going? What is it interacting with? But I agree, you know, is there a real consumer benefit? While they did some clinical testing, like looking at tensile strength, sometimes a consumer doesn't perceive those benefits. You could have a product perform really well with repeat grooming, tensile strength, and a consumer is like, eh, it's just. Okay. I don't, I don't personally notice a difference with it. And then you can have products that don't perform well in those tests and the consumer is like, this is the best product I've ever used for my hair. So at the end of the day, right, it matters, but it also doesn't matter.
- [21:37]
A
I just think on some level all of this science and publicity and such is a little bit misleading to consumers because this gets out the message that, oh, panthenol in your product is definitely going to help you. Whereas it doesn't really say that, but
- [21:54]
B
I think panthenol really does something.
- [21:56]
A
Oh yes. You're, you're, you're Team Panthenol. I'm seeing this study and I'm, I'm still Team Skeptical Pantheon.
- [22:04]
B
Well, I thought it was all right. I actually, Jennifer Marsh, who led the study, I'm a fan of her. She's already aware of this. I've read almost great stuff. I've read almost every paper she's ever done and I've even worked with people who have had the opportunity to work with her. And it's like I'm fangirling through a second degree. Yeah, I mean it's pretty good. Doing really good things.
- [22:27]
A
She actually got awarded the Mason G. Denavare Award at the latest society of Cosmetic Chemists.
- [22:35]
B
She did. She did. And I had asked her to speak back when she was first publishing research on the role of copper free radicals within hair, where they change the oxidation states and can interact with the keratin fibers. That work actually was when Wella was Procter and Gamble owned and I had invited her to speak at the Society of Cosmetic Chemists. In meeting in maybe 2016 and she actually won like the best speaker at the whole event award. It was pretty great. Yeah.
- [23:03]
A
Excellent. All right, well, the panthenol debate continues, but not on this show. Let's head over to some questions.
- [23:10]
B
It probably will continue on this show. Just like vitamin C is a little sore point of contention between us, but I ought to give you this.
- [23:17]
A
You know what I meant on this episode.
- [23:20]
B
Okay.
- [23:21]
A
Continue on the show.
- [23:22]
B
It actually might not. We'll see.
- [23:25]
A
We'll see. How about we head over to some questions? Our first question comes to us from a who is a patron. Thank you so much for supporting the show. They say. Hi, Valerie and Perry, any thoughts on the hair multiplier from legardine? Before spending $218 for 30 mils and three months of products as they recommend, it would be very helpful to gather your thoughts and feedback. She provided the link and she says, P.S. i'm immensely grateful for the work you guys do. You, your knowledge and experience plus choosing the path less traveled of being honest rather than sponsored is rare nowadays. And appreciate you so much. Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Well, thank you so much for the question and the comments. And are you familiar with the hair multiplier, Valerie?
- [24:17]
B
I am now.
- [24:18]
A
And what do we got with this hair multiplier?
- [24:21]
B
Anytime there's a hair growth product, I'm always suspicious now. So for some context, I've worked on a lot of scalp products and we partnered with third party contract research organizations to do quite a bit of work on many actives that the ingredient suppliers purport to work to regrow hair. And sure have spent a lot of money doing so. Not me personally, but working with many companies who have done so. And I just to quote Perry, I'm skeptical that any product can grow up to three inches of growth in 90 days. Now I would love to see how that three inch got added. Is it like they measured three hairs and each grew one inch in 90 days and therefore the additive sum is three inches? I don't know. But it's highly unlikely that the hair growth cycle could have been accelerated to the point where someone could grow one inch per month. It's just on the very high side.
- [25:23]
A
Just to clarify, when I hear that 3 inches in a month, I just assume like, all right, Your hair is 3 inches longer, like your overall hair. So I think that's what a consumer would take. Is that right? But you are saying that maybe there's some claim shenanigans going on here where technically what they're saying Is true, but it's giving a false impression. So and the way you described it. Yeah. Three hairs grow an inch. Well, that's three inches of growth. But really that's one inch of growth from the consumer perspective.
- [25:53]
B
Well, yeah, who knows? Okay. So essentially your hair, an average person's hair cycle produces about a half inch of hair per month.
- [26:02]
A
Right.
- [26:02]
B
And it would be rare that somebody would produce 1 inch of growth from using this product per month, in my opinion. And again, having worked on products that have spent a lot of money on testing and used real science to try to get hair to grow, I've got
- [26:17]
A
to say that claim. Does they really make that claim with three inches in a month?
- [26:21]
B
In three. In three months.
- [26:23]
A
Oh, three inches in three.
- [26:24]
B
So basically it doubles your hair growth per month.
- [26:27]
A
Right, because hair normally grows about a half an inch a month. Yeah, correct. So it's doubling your hair growth. Right?
- [26:33]
B
Yeah.
- [26:33]
A
Okay.
- [26:34]
B
Wow. Yeah. And then you look at the little asterisk and you, and you see it's based on a self reported 12 week consumer use survey. So then I say, okay, well it's not actually, you know, they didn't measure it. It's like, yeah, I think my hair grew about three inches probably. Now where I think there could be value is there's one claim that they did test for. And this is actually where more most hair growth serums, and I'm, you know, in air quotations for those of you who can't see me, is that 86% of users reported a reduction in hair shedding and breakage. And so often the fine print in scalp care is prevents hair loss or improves hair length due to breakage. And this is just because there's some kind of conditioning ingredient in the product that stops your hair from breaking as easily as if you didn't have the product on. So that one I believe, and maybe that's why people thought they had an increase in hair length because their hair wasn't breaking.
- [27:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, right. Well, I'm looking at the ingredients here and guess what their top active ingredient is.
- [27:36]
B
Water.
- [27:37]
A
Caffeine. Well, water's the solid.
- [27:40]
B
Okay. Active ingredient is the, is the keyword that you use.
- [27:44]
A
Yeah, they have, it's water, glycerin and then caffeine. So that's. And then they got niacinamide up there pretty high on the list.
- [27:52]
B
Acetyl tyrosine is another one that has been been associated with hair growth.
- [27:58]
A
Yeah, well, I'm looking up here that, you know, their preservative system is right after niacinamide so they're not, they're not putting a lot in there if they're.
- [28:07]
B
Yeah, unfortunately, no, because you don't use a lot of potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate. It's is, is pretty low right. Now the other claim that was interesting, 94% of users using this once per day saw a noticeable increase in hair thickness. Again, same self reported.
- [28:25]
A
Right.
- [28:26]
B
So do I believe that it's doing the things that a naive consumer reading this would think? No, I don't think so. But I think if people feel really great, they're providing some nourishment to their scalp, keeping the skin hydrated and being really cautious of their hair routine, I think that's really fantastic. Sure.
- [28:48]
A
But $200 for a two month supply?
- [28:53]
B
Well, and it also says you have to stay consistent. Right. And the whole thing is like you gotta stay consistent. What happens when you stay consistent? They do have 120 day money back guarantee which basically allows you to use it for four months. So.
- [29:08]
A
Well, you gotta buy it twice.
- [29:10]
B
Oh yeah, right. That's right.
- [29:16]
A
Somebody, why don't they sell like a three month supply if they're going to make that claim, three inches of growth in, you know, 90 days or three months?
- [29:24]
B
Yeah. They also say they really recommend for best results storing it in the refrigerator. Which tells me there probably might be some, you know, maybe some degradation in the product or maybe a propensity for microbial contamination. And so keeping it in the fridge, maybe color shift, oxidation of the ingredients, something. That's usually why you would say keep it in the fridge.
- [29:47]
A
Right. But I also think that could be like just a marketing thing where people feel like it's more active if it has to be refrigerated, you know.
- [29:55]
B
Yeah, that's actually a really good point. So anyway, backed by science, it's backed by a consumer perception study. And you know, that is a lot of money. I would consider perhaps some other products.
- [30:07]
A
Yeah, it's, it's backed by market research. Is that science? All right, let's move on to the next question.
- [30:16]
B
This question comes to us from another patron. Alice. Hello, Beauty brains. Thank you for being an active part of my beauty, skin care and knowledge. I have a question about Paula's choice new longevity serum. Are there any ingredients or combinations in this product that allow it to perform as cutting edge as it sounds?
- [30:33]
A
Well, Cellular Youth Age Disrupting Longevity Serum and Cellular Youth is a tm, so it's a catchy little marketing name.
- [30:44]
B
I think it's cute. Yeah.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah. And you know, it's Paula's Choice. They're owned by Unilever, so you know that it's a solid formulation. But is it worth $72 for 30 mils? I mean, in the realm of anti aging serums, that's probably one of the less expensive ones that I've seen. Right.
- [31:04]
B
I mean, it sounds pretty inexpensive compared to the previous question. But when you think about a 1 ounce product, if you're using it nightly, right. And you're covering your whole face and maybe your neck, it probably would last you about five weeks. So you would have to say, okay, that's about $72 a month in product.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah, that's, that's a lot of money. But all right, let's see what we got here. It is clinically proven to visibly reduce the look of skin age. So it's important to look at that claim. Visibly reverse the look of skin age. It's not saying, it's not reversing your wrinkles, it's just making it look like you don't have wrinkles, which is a good cosmetic claim, which you'd expect from Unilever. Them making cosmetic claims. Oh yeah.
- [31:47]
B
They wouldn't want to say it actually does those things because then it would be a drug claim, but they just
- [31:52]
A
want to kind of imply that it does it. So if you're quickly reading through that, you're like, oh yeah, we'll get longevity, serious, firmer, smoother and radiant skin. Right. That's kind of the trick of claims in our industry. So as far as ingredients go, I mean they have a spotlight ingredients and they have the sunflower sprout extract. Okay. Then they have the Goji fruit extract and acetyltetrapeptide 2. So that's the synthetic peptide. So I have to say as a, as a formulator, whenever I see the word extract, I just think like, yeah, this is just dumped in there for marketing people to be able to say something about it. I've never really seen an extract that I think provides a really great benefit, have you?
- [32:37]
B
Well, I have seen with certain extracts that are standardized for specific components, they can offer some benefit when used at a meaningful level. But they have to be stand standardized for meaningful components.
- [32:50]
A
Right.
- [32:50]
B
And have appropriate clinical data with them. The challenge is when you just see the word extract, you don't really know that. And so unfortunately it's, I am on the cautious approach. Like I'm going to assume you're just using the same things that these other companies are doing, which is cheapy extracts where you don't really know what's in it.
- [33:10]
A
Usually when an extract is. When you purchase an extract and you're formulating, it comes as a, like a 1% solution. So 99% of it is, I don't know, glycerin or propylene glycol or something. So it's already a puny amount. And then you put in a small amount. So your 1% extract is in your formula at. Even if it's 1%, it's still 0.001% of your formula. So it's at a very small amount.
- [33:34]
B
It's very tough. But the peptide in here. I'm a believer in peptides, Perry. You know, in graduate school, a lot of my work was. Was with different peptides and proteins.
- [33:44]
A
I believe peptides exist. So.
- [33:46]
B
Okay.
- [33:46]
A
And they're really good in the body. They're effective in the body.
- [33:49]
B
All right, well, let's pretend some of them can get through. They would be drugs. That's another different story.
- [33:53]
A
But there is that. Yeah.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah. This peptide's really interesting because according to the manufacturer of the peptide, they say it's a biomimetic peptide derived from the youth hormone thymopoetin. So I think it's an interesting story. Of course, ingredient suppliers have marketing departments too.
- [34:12]
A
Yeah.
- [34:12]
B
You know, does it really work? Of course, they have a lot of in vitro studies that show it works to help improve the epidermal profile, stimulate skin regeneration. Of course, the more your skin can regenerate, that's what youthful skin does. So the presumption is you're kind of restoring your skin back to a youthful state. Now, does it really do anything in the real world? That's why Paula's choice did all of these studies where they photographed people's skin. Skin using the product.
- [34:39]
A
Sure.
- [34:39]
B
Now, a really great study would have just been a really bare bones product and this active. Right. None of the goji things, none of the whatevers. And they would have said, is it really doing something?
- [34:51]
A
Right.
- [34:51]
B
Right. And of course, who's going to do that? I don't know a single company that would do that. Because studies are really expensive time investing. At the end of the day, it's like the product that's working or not, not the individual.
- [35:03]
A
Right. Well, that's kind of the opposite of what the panthenol study was. That panthenol study was just on. Does panthenol do anything? This one is more. Is our serum doing anything? And let's not know if it is doing something. Let's not look at what in There is doing it. We just does the overall product do it. And from a consumer standpoint, whether the overall product does something is the more important thing, right?
- [35:27]
B
Exactly. But I'm sure it's a really nice product. I actually really like the thickening polymer that's in the formula. It has a really nice fast melting profile. It's like super lightweight. So this feels more of like a gel serum versus like a really heavy moisturizer type.
- [35:43]
A
You know, it's, it's a big company that's making it. So it's, it's gonna be aesthetically pleasing. I think it's probably higher priced than the benefit that you're gonna see out of it. But know that's, I'm very price sensitive. So in my non scientific opinion, is it probably overpriced, But I'm sure it's a perfectly fine product.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah, I could see that. But I, I'm just looking at it and I bet you it feels really good. But I'll tell you one reason I can't use it.
- [36:11]
A
Okay, what's that?
- [36:12]
B
Hydroxy acetophenone, which is a preservative. For some reason I am just hypersensitive to this preservative. I can smell it from a mile away and it just repulses me. And yeah, therefore, I'm sorry, Paula, I can't buy this one.
- [36:32]
A
Well, you know, Paula's not involved in the brand anymore.
- [36:35]
B
I know.
- [36:36]
A
Did I ever tell you I met her once at a conference?
- [36:39]
B
Oh yeah? How was it?
- [36:40]
A
It was good. She was, she was very friendly. She was, you know, she comes from like the reporter. She was like a reporter.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah.
- [36:47]
A
Who did reporting on beauty products. And so we had her speak at a conference with back in the, you know, late 1990s. So it was a lot. That was when she had her book don't go to the Beauty Counter without. Yeah, she was the cosmetic cop or something.
- [37:02]
B
Yep. Cosmetic cop.
- [37:03]
A
She was one of the OGs. And that was before Paula's Choice.
- [37:05]
B
Exactly. Well, I'll tell you a little story about Paula. Back when, you know, Twitter was new, Instagram was, you know, not even a thing yet I was active as a cosmetic chemist on Twitter and Paula's Choice, this was before the brand acquisition. And I feel also like before, before she was super huge. The brand was following me, but it said Paula's Choice was the handle. And then it was like Paula Bagoon was the, you know, like the name on it. And I was like, I can't believe Paul is following me. And I'm So stupid. I didn't realize it was like the brand, but they would interact with me and it turned out it was like their social media manager.
- [37:39]
A
Right.
- [37:39]
B
So dumb.
- [37:40]
A
It was like a PR company. There you go. Well, social media was new back.
- [37:44]
B
Yeah. Give me some credit year.
- [37:46]
A
All right, speaking of some drama, let's look at this next question from a patron. Hi, Perry and Valerie, Beauty drama alert. Can you look into the drama surrounding the popular lipstick lesbian TikTok account and their new company, Leaked Labs? Your opinions are the only ones I trust. What do you think of their business model and first product? Ampi Flexi Powder. That's from our, our patron, Amanda. Thanks, Amanda. Valerie, have you seen the controversy of this launch?
- [38:18]
B
I have and I'm not sure why it's controversial per se. You know, of course, any brand, you know, showing a preview of something, hey, what do you think? Should we go to market with it? It's not a new strategy, but I think the way they've done it is a little unique in creating the splash. Almost like they created the tension themselves.
- [38:40]
A
Yeah. I mean, younger people don't really know what the industry has tried before. And you know, this is certainly not a novel idea, but you have a social media, a popular social media account. They're launching a brand in sort of a novel way. And so congratulations to them. They got some publicity out of it. So the idea of this new brand, I guess, is that they do limited runs of these early stage prototypes in the lab and then it's leaked directly to the consumer. So. And then the idea is you try the product and then you give them feedback. And if people like the products, then, oh, we're going to actually launch that product, we're going to keep that product going. It's just kind of a different way to tell the same story that's already out there. Right. That's. This is what products is. You. You launch a product and if it does well, you make another batch of it and you keep it going. And if it doesn't do well, you usually just let it die and you don't do another run. Right. That's kind of what they're doing here, right?
- [39:50]
B
Yeah. And the thing I don't really care for about it is the way it's presented is like this lab had some prototypes. They're really cool. We want to see what you think. And a lot of times really cool doesn't translate into a great performing prototype product.
- [40:06]
A
Sure.
- [40:07]
B
Additionally, usually before you launch something, you do a lot of work on a performance evaluation. You do a Lot of work on stability. You have the product evaluated for safety. You do safety testing. You kind of do all these things and check the boxes before you go to market to ensure that the risk to the consumer is as little as possible. And I don't want to say that they didn't do that here because I don't know. But generally that involved investment isn't done on a really cool, trendy prototype for a brand. It's only when the Pro, that product is put into motion for production. Would any of that investment be done, especially on a little eyeshadow like this?
- [40:46]
A
I gotta figure that they are. Of course they're gonna do. If they're gonna put a product out on the market, they're gonna do the proper safety testing and stuff, I would hope. It's certainly some brand that has a lot of publicity and stuff. This is. They're just kind of going to have to do that.
- [41:00]
B
That's a big financial investment for something that might not ever be made on a full scale.
- [41:05]
A
It is true. But then this is also sort of suggests maybe this was a product idea that they went through all these proper checks and stuff, and then for just whatever reason, business reasons, they just didn't end up launching it. So that's probably why you. Because there's probably, you know, there are certainly products that I've worked on where, you know, we've got six months into it, we've got all our testing and prototyping done, and the marketing just says, yeah, we want to go different way. Actually, what would happen is they couldn't make a decision up front about the formula. So they'll say, here are three ideas, work on all three of them, and then we'll decide at the end. And so that's. That's typically how you'd have these extra formulas out there. But that's reality. The extra Pro, you as a. As a chemist, as a formulator, what you do is try to reduce work, is to make the three options really very similar with little tiny tweaks. And so you're not doing all this extra work, even though you can still give marketing your three options.
- [42:08]
B
It's possible that could be the case, but I would say it's probably not the case, given the financial investment and the fact that the onus on safety and all of the above is on the brand. Right, right. So this manufacturer they partnered with, I just don't know, contract manufacturers that, you know, different for SPFs when you're doing private label and all that type of stuff. But generally that investment doesn't happen until commercialization is real. And so I would just want to ensure that they're doing those types of things. But maybe they have a huge risk appetite right there.
- [42:41]
A
There is that. Yeah.
- [42:42]
B
Hopefully they have the right product liability insurance. And so, I mean, it's cool. But the product itself, which is basically pigments that have been laid out onto a film and then it gets transferred to the eye. I'm going to guess this concept, it's not the first time it's been thought of ever. And often, often there's not very many new things. And so I think it's great to spark, like, conversation. I don't think it's a realistic product format.
- [43:12]
A
There is one other thing that occurred to me about this though, is this has actually kind of got it backwards. The way product development works, the way it generally works in the industry is you have the idea first and then you test the idea before you make the product or prototype with consumers. And the ideas that consumers like the best, those are the ones that get moved into R and D. And that's when product development actually starts. Starts the idea that there's just these prototypes that R and D has been tinkering with and it's just laying around. I just don't think that really happens very much.
- [43:49]
B
No. And if it were so cool, why would it have been laying around?
- [43:53]
A
Right, right, exactly, exactly.
- [43:55]
B
So we'll also say this, like, not many facilities also have time for true open innovation. Usually that happens on the brand side where it's like, oh, you know, there I had a friend who worked at a. A company I can't name and they had one project for two years and I'm like, really? That's it? Because, you know, our lab has 60. But here the hairspace is a little different than the type of company they worked at. And you just had all the time in the world to kind of do open innovation, extensive product testing, research. Of course you have reforms and that kind of stuff going on.
- [44:28]
A
Right.
- [44:28]
B
But most contract manufacturing facilities, at least in the United States States, they might have an innovation team or innovation concepts, but it's really centralized around, oh, here's a new raw material that could be interesting. It's not like true, really innovative type stuff. It's things that you could easily put together.
- [44:46]
A
Yeah, there's just no time. I mean, yeah, contract manufacturers, they're in the business of making products for people to launch. They're not in the business of making something that might launch in the future. Making maybe P and G or unilever or l' Oreal has their innovation people that can work on these long term projects. But contract manufacturers are like, all right, we gotta. If our tanks are not spinning, we're not making any money. So we need that.
- [45:11]
B
Yeah. And also I'll say some of the sentiment was like, oh, most labs have innovative concepts sitting on shelf and I don't have the time to actively work on things that aren't greenlit to go to market.
- [45:22]
A
When an idea scores well, that's when you're gonna make the prototype. You don't just make prototypes and leave them.
- [45:27]
B
Right.
- [45:29]
A
All right, here is the audio question. I have to apologize for the audio. That cuts out a little bit. And so we had to fill in the blanks of what the question totally was. But I appreciate the question and so let's play that now.
- [45:42]
C
Hi, Perry and Valerie of your show. I have been, been watching it like lately and I have a lot of questions. But the first question I have to ask you guys is I see a lot of talk from the Coralie community saying that conditioners and silicone or gels, foam, anything else that you put on top of it. So I was wondering what were your thoughts on this? Thank you so much for everything you do for us consumers.
- [46:13]
A
Curly hair products. Valerie, we've kind of answered this question I think a few times in the past, but what are your thoughts? Do products like conditioners and silicones and that we love so much and styling products are curly haired people, should they avoid these kinds of things?
- [46:30]
B
I don't think there's anything that people should avoid, to be honest. I mean, of course, like if something's
- [46:38]
A
not like cocaine or.
- [46:40]
B
Well, I meant in the hair space.
- [46:42]
A
Cigarettes.
- [46:43]
B
Right. I mean, I think it's. They're just big blanket statements. And at the end of the day, you can't read a product by its ingredients, ingredient label. I mean, you can try, but it's not really, you know, and we do it a little bit, but we also have experience. The experience to kind of know where they go. I want to say as a consumer, you can't really judge a performance by the ingredient label. And so to say like conditioners are bad for curly hair, silicones are bad, or anything with glycerin is bad, or anything with PVP is bad. It's just, it's not true because it's. Well, how much is in there? Are the effects of that ingredient balanced out or negated by anything else present in there? You can't tell concentration for sure.
- [47:26]
A
Well, it also misses the most important thing about it. And it's like, what does the consumer want? Because some consumers like sticky stuff in their hair, and some consumers can't stand it. So you can't just do a blanket statement that, oh, this is true for everybody. You know, I think that's kind of one of the big things that when people make statements like this that they miss is like, well, first of all, what do you like your hair to feel like? And, you know, if you want to feel a certain way, we can recommend you stay away from these ingredients. But if you like a different way, you can use these ingredients. So I think that's what this kind of misses.
- [48:04]
B
And earlier, you know, I said people don't like silicones. That's a huge blanket stick statement. I think actually, curly hair types could benefit from many types of silicone. So are they helping a product spread through the hair? When you have curly hair, physics is what you're trying to counteract with the natural curl and coil of the hair. And so to counteract any stress on the hair, lubrication is often a required element in the product. And you can get definite lubrication from the hair, and it doesn't have to hang around. It could be a really volatile type. Silicone or conditioning agents also lubricate the hair or soften the hair fiber. And so I just think, you know, try not to worry about what's in the product. If you have curly hair and you're finding a product and combinations of products are working really well for you, I would just stick to it. The only thing I would say that I think is a challenge in the curly hair community is that there are very few wash days for many people. And so people will go a week or maybe even longer without washing their hair, because it can be a really arduous process to get the hair wet, to ensure the curls stay intact, and then to kind of reset the hair and reset the curls. And, you know, I don't wash my hair a whole lot, maybe twice a week, once a week for sure. But I have really dry. I'm not intrinsically an oily producer on my scalp, and so I often don't feel like my hair is super soiled. But when you layer a lot of products on your hair or you're consistently using dry shampoo to help you get between wash days, that kind of stuff does build up on scalp, and it's really ingredient agnostic. It has nothing to do with the fact that there were silicones in the product. It's that you're. You're Getting product on your scalp. And as your scalp is turning itself over the skin, you're getting dead skin building up. And you can get what I call cheese tubes on the hair fiber, which.
- [50:00]
A
Oh, my.
- [50:01]
B
I don't think I have to explain what they look like. And this can be.
- [50:05]
A
But if you want to see, Valerie's going to show that in her course that's coming up.
- [50:09]
B
I have a lot of pictures that you can't unsee. Parmesan cheese was never the same for me after that scalp study. So you want to make sure that you are properly cleansing the scalp and that's getting in there with your fingers and scrubbing it. Especially if you're leaving like leave on conditioners on. And again, the dry shampoo powders or even like physical powders that aren't aerosol, you just got to clean your scalp. So I would say what really is bad for many people is not appropriately cleaning their scalp, but products, as long as you're happy with the way it looks and feels, keep using it.
- [50:44]
A
Yeah. And ultimately that's probably true of almost all the products that we talk about. Speaking. Talk about. Do you hear that music?
- [50:52]
B
I hear Baby C throwing a fit, so I gotta go.
- [50:55]
A
Oh, no.
- [50:56]
B
Thanks for listening, everyone. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that's gonna help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.
- [51:07]
A
Speaking of questions, if you have a question and you wanna get your voice on the show, just record it on your smartphone and then email it to the beauty of beautybrainsmail.com or you can call our phone number at 1-872-216-1856. We also have a form in the show notes where you can submit a question. The Beauty Brains are also on Patreon, if you appreciate what we do. And the fact that we don't take advertising means that we can say anything that we want. But the show is not free to produce. So if you want to support, support the Beauty Brains, head on over to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also get a transcript and your questions get a higher priority than everyone else's.
- [51:51]
B
Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts on Instagram. Right. The Beauty Brains 2018 on X where at the Beauty Brains on Blue sky. We're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok and a YouTube.
- [52:03]
A
Wow, we are out there mostly.
- [52:06]
B
Thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [52:11]
A
Thanks, everyone.