NAD Hype, Dry Hair, and Color Fade - episode 423

Summary

The Beauty Brains – Episode 423: NAD Hype, Dry Hair, and Color Fade
April 10, 2026

---

Overview

In this episode of The Beauty Brains, hosts Valerie George and Perry Romanowski, both experienced cosmetic chemists, answer listener questions about cutting-edge and everyday beauty science topics. The primary discussion centers on the efficacy of NAD in skincare, best practices for hair masks and conditioners, hair color longevity, and the function of glycerin in high altitude climates. Between their expert commentary, they also update listeners on industry news, listener feedback, and personal anecdotes from their lives and work in the cosmetics field.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Beauty News: Refillable Packaging & Environmental Impact

• [08:49–13:21]

• The hosts assess recent trends in refillable packaging, focusing on new technologies purported to save plastic waste (Aveda & Aeroflex).
  • Skepticism about mainstream consumer adoption: “I’m skeptical about it…as long as virgin plastic costs less than recycled plastic, people are just not going to be using recycled plastic very much” – Perry [11:00]
  • Discussion about TerraCycle and the energy-intensity of stainless steel reusable containers. Valerie questions whether the environmental benefits truly outweigh the cost and work involved, noting, “It just felt like a lot of work…after 10 uses…the metrics weren’t impressive” – Valerie [12:52]

2. Listener Feedback: Estrogen Creams for Skin

• [13:21–16:03]

• A listener, Miriam, shared a review article on topical estrogen and skin aging.
  • The hosts clarify that while lack of estrogen is linked to skin changes, evidence on creams is limited: “The evidence that topical estrogen is going to improve your skin condition is pretty limited…more research is needed” – Perry [14:25]
  • Valerie is cautious: “We really need a lot more data because there are safety concerns…my instinct is, I don’t know, safer than, sorry, I’m going to avoid it” – Valerie [15:48]

3. Q&A: NAD in Skincare – Effective or Hype?

• [16:14–23:12]

• Listener Nikki asks about the efficacy of NAD-based topical products (Aramore brand in particular).
  • Valerie explains NAD’s biological role in ATP synthesis but is skeptical of topical benefit: “Do I think it would work? Probably not…I just kind of like the imaging and I’m sure the formulas are nice…I don’t know if I would take the supplement. Probably not.” – Valerie [17:58]
  • Perry and Valerie examine the product’s ingredients, observing it’s mainly a standard moisturizing gel with no compelling evidence that NAD+ in this form provides unique benefits.
  • Before-and-after photos are dismissed as unreliable: “Those kinds of things don’t impress me much at all because it’s so simple to change the lighting” – Perry [21:21]
  • Alternatives like niacinamide are mentioned as being more studied for skin health.

---

4. Q&A: Do Hair Masks Work Better if Left On Longer?

• [23:12–31:47]

• Listener Diane asks if leaving hair masks or conditioners on longer yields better results.
  • Perry recounts lab experiences where thickened conditioners were sold as ‘masks’ with suggested longer application, but efficacy was not meaningfully improved by increased time: “All of the effect that you’re gonna get is happening pretty much right when it’s all distributed through your hair. And if you leave it on there longer, not much else is gonna happen.” – Perry [26:01]
  • Valerie adds nuance from the professional salon perspective: “When you were under the heat or heat with humidity…the results were a little bit better…But in general, not much difference with extended time at room temperature.” – Valerie [28:06]
  • The consensus: For most at-home use, leaving a mask on longer doesn’t dramatically enhance results, though heat/humidity treatments in salons may be somewhat more effective.

---

5. Q&A: Shampooing After Hair Color—Good or Bad?

• [32:00–37:22]

• Listener Adriana asks if using the included shampoo after coloring hair weakens the color.
  • Valerie emphasizes it’s best practice to shampoo after coloring: “You don’t want that excess color sticking to the outside. The shampoo is there just to…take away the excess stuff so it’s not transferring to a towel or to your clothing. It’s not going to get the stuff that’s gone into the middle of the hair fiber.” – Valerie [34:44]
  • Only frequent, repeated shampooing fades color prematurely, not the initial post-process wash.

---

6. Q&A: Does Glycerin Dry Skin at High Altitude?

• [37:26–41:55]

• Listener Tammy (living at 8,000–10,000 ft) worries that glycerin in moisturizers will pull water from her skin in a dry climate.
  • Perry and Valerie debunk this myth: “Just avoiding glycerin, there’s no good reason, I think, to avoid glycerin, even if you’re in the conditions that were described here.” – Perry [39:13]
  • Most glycerin levels in cosmetic formulas are low; it’s combined with other moisturizing ingredients to prevent water loss.
  • Glycerin is well-studied and doesn’t typically dry out skin, even in dry conditions.
  • Rich, occlusive moisturizers layered atop hydrating products are recommended for dry climates.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If it screws up, it’s the lab’s fault. Right until the first production run.” – Perry, reflecting on scaling up formulations [03:02]
• “I used to hold a world record, the fastest 50 miles done while juggling…8 hours and 23 minutes.” – Perry [07:04, 07:30]
• “I don’t like this story…I don’t like what you did.” – Valerie, reacting humorously to the insider confession that some masks are just thicker conditioners [25:34]
• “Consumers would be hard pressed to see any effects at all…unless you’re way into it.” – Perry on noticing benefits from leaving masks on longer [30:14]
• “The evidence that using these creams to improve your skin, it’s promising, but it’s certainly not strong enough…” – Perry, about topical estrogen [14:25]
• “If you’re thinking that, hey, $110 is kind of a lot for that time period, you probably could get a lot of really great products for less money that have a similar texture.” – Valerie, on NAD creams [21:21]

---

Timestamps for Key Sections

• Refillable Packaging & Environmental News: [08:49–13:21]
• Estrogen Cream Feedback: [13:21–16:03]
• NAD in Skincare Efficacy: [16:14–23:12]
• Hair Masks & Conditioner Timing: [23:12–31:47]
• Shampooing After Hair Color: [32:00–37:22]
• Glycerin and Dry Climates: [37:26–41:55]

---

Tone and Language

The hosts maintain a friendly, conversational, and evidence-based tone throughout, mixing in humor (and the occasional science-industry cynicism) and making the science accessible for a lay audience while never overselling weak claims.

---

Summary

This episode is packed with useful, actionable insights and industry perspective, making it a must-listen for anyone seeking clarity on trending skincare ingredients (NAD, estrogen), hair care techniques, and the truth behind common beauty myths. If you want direct, science-based answers to your biggest beauty questions, Valerie and Perry deliver with expertise and plenty of personality.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 423. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[B]

Hello, Valerie. Great to see you.

[A]

Great to see you, birthday boy. On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions including does NAD Skincare actually have real efficacy data? Do hair masks give better results if they're left on longer? Does shampooing after depositing hair color weaken or degrade it? And last but not least is glycerin drying skin at high altitudes. But first, that inane chit chat.

[B]

Whoa, Valerie, didn't you just come back from California or something?

[A]

I did. I had a production in Los Angeles two days off site at a facility. It was a project I completed a while ago, but they cashed in their chips, as I like to say, and said, guess what, you are coming now and we're going to scale up. And that's what I did.

[B]

Oh, that's fun. Yeah, I guess that's a job that a lot of people don't know that the cosmetic formulator will do. You know, you make the formulas in a lab at small levels, maybe, I don't know what's the most? 2kg is the mat moaks. You're going to make of something.

[A]

3.5 is kind of my max reliable quantity. Less for hair color.

[B]

Right. But normally you're making batches of like 500 grams. So just over a soda can worth of product. And that's great for the lab and for testing as such, but when you have to actually make it thousands of bottles, well then they're doing in a tank. I don't know what size the tanks were. Our tanks were like 3,000 gallon tanks. Like, like huge tanks with center stirs and stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, in full production, yes. This was just the pilot scale up. So the pilot study, we were just making a few hundred pounds or I think 35 working gallons is what we were doing. But it is interesting. A lot of formulators think, oh, I can make it in a beaker and don't think about the production side. But as I have my own R D facility, I have to guarantee it can be scaled up. And so essentially I'm on site at production and especially if there's no process engineer working at the facility or even if there is a process engineer, actually I'm on site for all those types of scale ups and you modify the process, viscosity sometimes come out a little different. So yeah, you want to understand what, you know, what's happening in production. Okay. Oh, we need to recirculate, take the product out of the bottom of the tank and put it into the top on this step. All those types of things. And you know, it was, I enjoy doing it. I always complain like, ugh, I gotta go to manufacturing and put on my steel toe boots and all that. But I really enjoy being there.

[B]

We always had a rule that the formula belongs to the lab. So if it screws up, it's the lab's fault. Right until the first production run. So if so every time there was a new production run of a product, somebody from the lab who helped develop the formula had to sit there and watch the compounders make the batch and, and make any notes. And if it came out within spec, then it's handed off to manufacturing. And so if it screws up in the future, it's manufacturing fault. But if that first batch screws up and you can't make it, they're going to blame the R and D people for not giving them a good formula.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. Well, everything went really well. All right, can't complain. I came back home. I'm pretty tired still and it's always hard keeping up with work, especially because I'm headed out of town again for work. But this time it's a fun trip. Me, Mr. Cosmetic Chemist and Baby C are headed to In Cosmetics Global in Paris.

[B]

Ah, yes, in Cosmetics. Well, that'd be fun. I'm not attending this year, but I have in the past and that's like the biggest chemical supplier show in the world, I guess.

[A]

And they always show new launches there before they come to the US and get shown at Suppliers Day New York. So I'm excited. You know, my family's coming with me. We're going to meet some more family there and have a great time. I'm going to Germany beforehand to spend time with extended family that I have in Germany like I do every year. So I'm pretty excited.

[B]

Wow. What part of Germany do you go to?

[A]

Just outside of Frankfurt.

[B]

Oh, Frankfurt. Yes.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[B]

No, no, that's okay.

[A]

Frankfurt.

[B]

I think I, I, yeah, Frankfurt. That's how we say it here in Chicago. No, I actually accidentally stayed overnight in Frankfurt one year because we were coming back from Italy and the plane had to stop there overnight, so.

[A]

Oh, nice. Yeah, it's a nice little airport. Yeah. But we're going to do a few days there, head to Paris. I just made a list of all the coffee shops I want to go to.

[B]

Oh, fun.

[A]

So that's pretty exciting. There's one in every little quadrant of Paris. There's 20 Arridons Mons, or whatever they call them. You know, I'm not really great at French. I took a semester of it, and I was like this there. Why do they have rules if everything's an exception to the rule? Nonetheless, I have my list of coffee shops. We have all our meals planned out. I'm excited to take a couple days to myself.

[B]

You know, you should start like a social media coffee person.

[A]

I know, I know. Well, do you know, it's a really big bummer. My university is doing a trip to Paris. They have a partnership university there or a campus there, and they're doing a trip the following week. Private tours, all that kind of stuff. It's. They're really great experiences, and I'll be missing it because I'll be there the week before, but.

[B]

Oh, well, next time.

[A]

And you had a birthday. How was it?

[B]

I did. It was fun. You know, do all my favorite stuff. Joggling, feeding cats, karaoke, playing cards, going out to dinner, you know, and hanging out with friends. That was. That was very cool. And, you know, I do this thing where on my birthday, I tried to. I have this notion I'm going to run my age. So I'll run the distance of my age in miles.

[A]

Oh, Perry, come on. Don't pretend that this can be done. Not with your knee.

[B]

Well, here's what I did instead of. Because I just turned 57. So instead of 57 miles, I went 5.7 miles.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

Well, when I was in my 30s, I used to do the. I used to run my age.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. A couple times.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. All right. I would have stopped after one year old.

[B]

Now the longest I ever run is 50 miles without stopping.

[A]

You've done 50?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I used to hold a world record, the fastest 50 miles done while juggling.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, you didn't know I had an actual Guinness World Record.

[A]

I knew that. I didn't know it was for 50 miles while juggling. I just thought it was like you just juggled a lot while you were.

[B]

Oh, no. Jogging 50 miles. It was in. It was like an. I have an official Guinness Record plaque and such.

[A]

Wow. So you actually juggled the whole time you ran 50 miles?

[B]

8 hours and 23 minutes. Yep.

[A]

I mean, I can't even run that long with Training, even I don't think I could. Well, to be fair, I did do have a heart condition. But to do it while juggling, I can't even juggle standing still.

[B]

Well, once. Once you get good at it, it's just the same as running.

[A]

Now, did you drop them during that time?

[B]

I had four drops during the whole eight and a half hour run. But the rule is that if you drop, you have to go back where you dropped and then start juggling before you can advance again. So. So it is. Drops are allowed, but.

[A]

Okay. Very cool.

[B]

I had a few. Yeah, it's good. I didn't actually. I didn't have my first drop until about four and a half hours in, so.

[A]

Wow. I'm just. I'm flabbergasted.

[B]

Yeah, that was back in 2007. So it's been a little while and. And somebody broke my record, so I don't own the record any longer.

[A]

And you're probably not going to get it again.

[B]

Probably not. I'm not as spry as some of these young jogglers out there.

[A]

Oh, wow. Well, speaking of things that just happened, let's head over to beauty news.

[B]

Valerie, I've seen these articles have just been popping up about refillable products. And so I thought, let's chat about it. This one was from. It was Aveda and Aeroflex debut this lightweight curbside recycling refillable technology, which. It looks interesting. It says up to 85% less plastic use. It's supposed to be a neat squeeze, convenient. But it seems to me that refillables has been around in our industry for a long time, many years, and it just. They just never seem to take off.

[A]

Yeah, they never seem to take off. We do a lot of time talking about them, but what I found interesting is how they're pushing curbside recyclable. Yeah, that's a claim I really struggle with. Just because something could technically be recycled doesn't mean it's going to be recycled, Right?

[B]

Absolutely. And I also think that, I don't know, do consumers really want to buy refills of stuff and put it in a container that they already have or something? I just don't think I've seen evidence that consumers want to do that.

[A]

Well, I've done it to hand soap. You have a really beautiful hand soap dispenser on your bathroom sink and you want to keep using that. Now, actually, in the lab we have the simple human, the kind you just stick your hand under and it squeezes the gel out.

[B]

Oh, nice. Those are Refillable bag and.

[A]

Yeah, but that's just hand soap. We do it with dish soap. I'm not going to do that with shampoo. A bottle that's been sitting in my shower. The plastic turns pink after a while.

[B]

I'm not doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, and you're sort of probably more progressive in this kind of thing than most people would be. I think for consumers that there would have, there has to be like some, I don't know, honestly, there has to be like an extra tax or something to try to change consumer behavior to get them to adopt these refillables. Because I don't think on our own consumers are not going to do this.

[A]

No. Why, when you could just go get another bottle or delivered to you by Amazon or that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Incentive would have to be insanely financial.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I good on Aveda for trying something here, you know, trying something novel, but I, I'm skeptical about it. I wish I wasn't. But it's still. We're at the point where virgin plastic costs less money than recycled plastic. And as long as that's the case, people are just not going to be using recycled plastic very much unless state

[A]

laws require them to. Like the state of Washington has a PCR scale up program, but so many brands could be exempt from that. On the smaller brand side, of course. Yeah, no, that's really, really interesting. But I just have to work through all my retail bottles here.

[B]

Well, there was that. What's that organization where they would collect your bottles and you had to send them in?

[A]

Terracycle.

[B]

Terracycle. Are they still around?

[A]

I think they are. So essentially how that worked and when I was in my prior life at a salon brand, we looked at partnering with them. I think there's a couple organizations that do this. But that organization, if I'm recalling the name correctly, it is, right?

[B]

It is TerraCycle. Yeah.

[A]

You had custom stainless steel steel containers and the product would go into them and you could get ice cream this way. I mean all sorts of companies participated, but the product had to come in special containers that were reused time and time again. And I think they did a study. I said, how, how many times can you reuse a stainless steel container before it has to get discarded because it's broken, damaged, can't be sanitized proper properly again? And I think the number at that time was like 10 uses. So I said, okay, well what are the metrics to produce the steel to reuse it for the bottles? Because it seems pretty like energy Intensive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To be able to say it's better for the environment than plastic. And I couldn't really get the data or I don't recall it, but it, it wasn't impressive. Point being that they, after 10 uses of getting and reclaiming this stainless steel, they would sanitize it, return it to the brand. It just felt like a lot of work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, we're still making more bottles, more plastic bottles. So if they're having an impact, it isn't a huge impact as of yet.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we do have some listener feedback from a few episodes ago, a few episodes back, Perry, maybe five or six. At this point we were talking about how estrogen and Miriam wrote us and said that we might find an article interesting regarding facial estrogen creams. This research article she shared with us. We'll put it in the show notes. They essentially tested different products with different concentrations containing estrogen. And ultimately the lack of estrogen in skin was a big impact. But the result of the facial cream was not very clear. Tears.

[B]

Miriam, you know, I looked. It's episode 407. That's when we talked about.

[A]

Wow, 16 ago.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. So she did share an article with us which was published in

[A]

International Journal of Women's Dermatology.

[B]

There you go. And essentially the article that she shared with us was not actually new research, it was actually a review paper.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And essentially the, the conclusion that I was drawing from this is that the evidence that topical estrogen is going to improve your skin condition is pretty limited. And the authors themselves state, after looking at all these review papers, more research is, is needed. The evidence that using these creams to improve your skin, it's promising, but it's certainly not strong enough. The evidence isn't strong enough to say that you should firmly recommend using these products. Now, if somebody has been using them and they like how their skin feels, keep using it. But it's not really a science based thing because we just don't know.

[A]

Well, we know that the lack of estrogen in skin plays a role, but I think where this focused was like the, the opportunity for commercialized products. My takeaway from this, and this is just how I feel like estrogen is a hormone, it does things in the body. And this paper kind of left with like, we really need a lot more data because there are safety concerns, like, should we be adding estradiol topically to skin? We need more information. And my instinct is, I don't know, safer than, sorry, I'm going to avoid it.

[B]

Yeah. That's a, that's a good strategy to take. Now the people selling estrogen creams probably wouldn't agree with you, but I don't think the, they have the supporting science on their side. It's. It's just an open question.

[A]

Yeah, very interesting.

[B]

Well, thanks for that Miriam.

[A]

Speaking of questions, let's head over to beauty science questions.

[B]

Alright, we got a question here from Nikki. Hi Perry and Valerie. I hope you can help me with this. If anyone has the knowledge and background to investigate this, I think it's you two. I've been hearing about NAD from my doctor's friends for a while, but mainly as an oral supplement. I recently heard a podcast episode interviewing one of the executives at Aramore, a brand that is selling only a couple of SKUs of NAD supplements but also a topical NAD face cream, creamer serum and an NAD eye cream, both claiming next gen anti aging benefits. Oh boy. The Aromar's pricing is on the higher side. 110 for the NAD face cream. At age 40 with a lot of signs of aging starting to really show through on my neck and face. I am ripe for falling for newfangled anti aging ingredients and products like this. But I'm trying to be cautious and not just throw $110 away at a serum that may or may not have truly good clinicals behind it. Other website cites clinical data, but it seems like it's more the usual consumer perception study results versus true clinical tests of some kind. Are you guys able to assess whether this brand or any manufacturers or brands selling NAD skincare actually have efficacy data that would trust it enough? Thank you Nikki. Thanks for that question. Nikki. So are you familiar with this Aramore products?

[A]

I'm not familiar with Aramore. I'm familiar with NAD in the skin. We learned a lot about it when we studied biochemistry and talked about the Krebs cycle. NAD and NADH replenish each other.

[B]

They're part of the involved in the ATP synthesis ultimately.

[A]

Exactly. Basically the cell energy type process. Now I went to the Aramor website and I mean I totally would try this. I'm not gonna lie now. Okay, would it do? I think it would work. Probably not. I just kind of like the imaging and I'm sure the formulas are really nice. I don't know if I would take the supplement. I mean, probably not.

[B]

I personally recommend against supplements just because I don't really trust that they're properly regulated in the U.S. yeah, yeah, that's

[A]

maybe you heard my hesitancy. But basically, yeah, you know, I Just unless I know the company where they're made at. A lot of people produce supplements that I don't think should be producing supplements that they're not doing all like the testing and they can really damage your liver. So anyway, I went to the Air More product page and all the products are lined up on this little silver bookshelf. And do you know what it reminds me of?

[B]

No, what's that?

[A]

It reminds me of when you're at the doctor's office and you have to urinate in a cup and you have to open this little metal door and put the product, put your pee on the shelf and then close it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's what it looks like the products are sitting on to me like the little shelf for someone.

[B]

Yeah, sure, sure. Anyway, well, it looks like they're little glass jars, bullet kind of products here. So. But let's talk about this nad cell energizing treatment. And it's. I'm just looking at the formula, water, pentalin glycol and then a thickener, an emollient. It takes a few ingredients to get us down to the phosphatidylcholine. I'm not. See, so I don't know. I see there's a lot of, a lot of standard humectants and stuff here.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you why I would try it because one, I really like the polymer that's used in the product. It is a polymer that kind of melts into the skin and the product. It's lightweight, it's not too heavy. It's not like a traditional cream per se. But this is really like. I mean, it's kind of creamy, but it's really like a lightweight gel type. And I just, I think I would love it from a texture perspective. I also like cap, cap triglyceride on skin, which is the emollient that you mentioned. Now would I try it because of the hydrogenated phosphatidylcholine or nicotinamide mononucleotide? I don't think topically that the, the. Those are going to do a whole lot. Of course they have some studies that show, you know, the skin barrier strengthened, which is always something really great that you want to see. They have tons of before and after showing pigment is being reduced, which is always really nice. But I don't know that it's going to restore skin in the way that a consumer thinks they're going to be safe from this product.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just looking at it. I'm a little skeptical just based on the Claims and what they're showing. I see before and after pictures and those kinds of things don't impress me much at all because it's so simple to not, you know, you change the lighting a little bit and it's so finicky to show really effects here. And so I don't really have much faith in before and after pictures.

[A]

No, you're not a fan of before and afters at all. So I guess the bottom line is, you know, it kind of is a lot of money for a cream. I think we've talked on previous episodes. For every 1.7 ounces, this is probably about six weeks worth of product. One ounce, usually, if you're applying it once every day lasts you about a month. So 1.7 ounces is probably going to be, you know, six weeks if you're doing your face and your neck and stuff like that. So if you're thinking that, hey, $110 is kind of a lot for that time period, you probably could get a lot of really great products for less money that have a similar texture. The polymer that's used, which is the hydroxyethyl acrylate, sodium acryloyl, dimethyl taurite, copolymer is a very popular polymer. And so I think you can find something that's pretty comparable. Is the NAD plus piece going to be beneficial? I don't know. I mean, there's other ingredients that are purported to improve NAD to NADH conversion within your skin. Niacinamide is one of them. But it has to be a pretty high amount of niacinamide in order to do that. And it has to be able to get into the skin and that kind of stuff. So I would say there's other things you could get that probably cost less money.

[B]

I. I also find this. Develop a Harvard scientist. I mean, I don't know a lot of cosmetic chemists coming out of Harvard.

[A]

No, not at all. But then also, I think too, I mean, if you're really worried about NAD plus, like I see there's companies online, med spas that really, you know, you can get injections and. Yeah, I just, you know, if you're only gonna buy this product for the NAD plus regeneration, I don't know that this is what I would do.

[B]

But as Valerie says, you might enjoy using it because it's probably has a nice texture.

[A]

Well, our next question comes to us from Diane with the dry hair. Hi, Beauty Brains. I love your show. Oh, and by the way, I'm not saying Diane has dry hair. She Signed her name like that.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Just so you guys don't think I'm making fun of Diane. Okay. Hi, beauty brains. I love your show and I look forward to each episode. Question. Do masks really give improved results if you leave them on for longer periods of time, like 5, 10, or 30 minutes? And if so, so what is the reason? Does it take longer for ingredients to penetrate or coat the hair? Or can you use them as conditioners and leave them on for one to three minutes? And the same question goes for conditioners. If I leave them on longer, will I see improved results? Thank you. Diane with the dry hair.

[B]

You know, the first time I read this question, I thought she was talking about facial masks.

[A]

Oh, like you put a facial mask on your hair. Yeah, I don't recommend that.

[B]

No, not on your hair. Just not on your hair. On your face.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

All right, that's. But, but I got it because she, she mentioned hair. So here's my thought on this.

[A]

I, I can already tell by the tone of your voice we're going to disagree on this.

[B]

Oh, goody. Well, I, I just know we used to have this product called the Three Minute Miracle or something.

[A]

I thought you were going to say

[B]

V05 and I'm like, no, no, no, no, We. Well, there was a popular product, Three Minute Miracle. Right. And that was all there. And it was like in a packet and such. And it's like a once a week treatment. And well, on our brand, on Tresma, we wanted to make a, a version of this. So we took our standard conditioner, which is a very good conditioner.

[A]

And I think that's subjective.

[B]

Well, I mean, it is subjective. Although we did a lot of consumer testing and it scored very well in consumer testing. Okay, I'll give you that wasn't just my opinion.

[A]

I'm sure it was just fine.

[B]

We got it to a point where it scored as well as Pantene, which at the time was always scoring the best. So, yeah, anyway, we had some data say that it was that. Okay. So all we did was take it and we reduced the water content, which, you know, doubled up the cetyl alcohol as the sterile alcohol. So we made it thicker and we just put it in a packet and we called it like a Three Minute Miracle.

[A]

I don't like this story.

[B]

And it sold fine. So at least some of those masks out there are just thicken up versions of regular conditioners now.

[A]

I hate this story. I don't like what you did.

[B]

Oh, well, you know, that's, that's, that's just the, you know, this is the insider's look that people don't use again.

[A]

I know.

[B]

All right, well, let's get to the. The meat of this question, though. If you leave your mask on or your. Or your fancy conditioner on for longer time, are you going to notice any difference? My professional opinion here is no. I think when you put on a conditioner, it all of the effect that you're gonna get is happening pretty much right when it's all distributed through your hair. And if you leave it on there longer, not much else is gonna happen. And I have done some trust studies to see if we could see any differences. And I couldn't, you know, putting on it for 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I don't think we got more than 10 minutes. But I didn't notice any significant difference. And I would be skeptical that a consumer would.

[A]

Well, let me tell you what I've done, Perry.

[B]

All right?

[A]

Now, we never took any. I worked at a salon professional brand, and we didn't take any, like, old products and be like, oh, just add more acetyl alcohol. Although I suppose that's actually a really good approach, now that you mention it, the easy approach for sure. But we did have salon professional use only products. And so these were treatments that were very expensive from a cost per pound perspective. And we only sold them to salons. And it would be a back bar treatment. So you would come in and say, oh, my hair is extra dry. And they would upsell you on this hydrating treatment for your hair. After they do whatever they do to you, they put this treatment on, and then you sit under a hooded dryer with either a light application of heat or steam. Steam, if you had like a Climazon they were called, where it put out humidity onto the hair while it was coated in the product. And then they would wash it out and style it, and you would get this deep conditioning treatment. Now, we did a time study analysis because sometimes if a product wasn't good, they would be like, well, would it be better if it was left on longer? Or if they wanted to get best use instructions for a salon professional, we would time it at 5, 10, and 15 minutes ambient temperature in a hooded dryer and under a Climazon with humidity. And I will say, when you were under the heat or heat with humidity, which is the climazon, the results were a little bit better on hair. For some of the treatments we were developing over room temperature processing, sometimes at room temperature, we couldn't necessarily see a difference in time application and I do agree the way conditioners work, your hair is going to be instantly coated in this conditioning product, and the positively charged materials are going to stick to your hair pretty much right away. But I do think there are some materials that can penetrate or partially penetrate, and I think that's where you get some of the advantage. Depending on the formula, not every formula, you might get an advantage with some kind of like, time and temperature instructions.

[B]

Yeah. As honestly, I don't think I've seen any independent published research on this. So, you know, right now we're just kind of going with our own experiences, and the, the work that we did that honestly was unpublished. But, yeah, you know, just knowing the way these things work, once you put it on, it's pretty much gonna work, how it's gonna work. And I don't think beyond the, like, the experience of just leaving it on and feeling good. I mean, honestly, I put hair conditioner on and then I shave my face and then I rinse it off. I don't really think it helps any because I could just put it on and rinse it out, but, you know, it's convenient for me to do that. So that's. That's what I do.

[A]

Now what product is that?

[B]

That's my own conditioner that I created.

[A]

Okay, what if I created a conditioner and you did them half head and tried it?

[B]

I'd totally do it.

[A]

And I would put lots of things that have data to penetrate the hair.

[B]

Sure, sure. But I will also add that while you may be able to show some effects in a lab, consumers would be hard pressed to see any effects at all.

[A]

Well, maybe the average consumer, but I will say, like, we didn't try this on Tresses. The work was done. Like we had a salon in our lab.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the people always love to tell you, and people being the professional salon evaluators, they would always love to tell you how terrible your product was, or no difference or not good, all those things. And, you know, I don't think they would have misrepresented the data. Now, would an average consumer have noticed? I guess that's a different question. They were professionals and they could detect really minute differences in between products. That is not an average consumer.

[B]

Yeah. And so unless you're way into it, I'd be skeptical an average consumer would notice.

[A]

Well, Diane, my advice to you is just leave it on for a few extra minutes. That's what I do. If I like the conditioner. If I don't, I rinse it off right away and see if you like, what's happening? You could even do a half head experiment in the shower with your product.

[B]

But even if you do an experiment and you come to some conclusions, it's not really conclusive for generally, it's just conclusive for you.

[A]

You're such a downer. If I could. You know how there's an expression called Danny downer? If I could come up with one for Perry, I. I'm gonna, like, just say that all the time.

[B]

Well, some of my friends ironically call me perky Perry.

[A]

You are perky. I do like that. Yeah. Well, our next question is an audio question.

[B]

Let me cue that one up now from Adriana.

[C]

Hello, beauty brains. My name's Adriana and I really love your show. I have a question that is related to hair color, specifically the included shampoo with the package for the l' Oreal Paris Excellence Creme triple care color. I've been using this brand for the last three years, and in the last year, the kit includes a shampoo and of course, the conditioner. Both are absolutely lovely. The instructions know to use the shampoo to remove any remaining hair color after rinsing away and making sure that the water runs clear. I color my hair primarily for gray coverage and have to do it every four weeks. So I haven't really noticed any color degradation. But I'm wondering if, for consumers that expect a permanent hair color to last, wouldn't shampooing after depositing the color weaken or degrade the color in any way? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

[B]

All right. Oh, a hair color question. And we just happen to have one of the industry's foremost experts in hair color on the line now. Valerie, how are you? Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Me? Are you sure?

[B]

Yeah, that's what I've heard.

[A]

All right, well, this is actually a. A really great question. I've actually. I don't know that I've tried the triple care color, but I'm familiar with the l' Oreal Paris Excellence cream hair color.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty nice. L' Oreal is actually the brand I recommend for home hair color because I think it's really nice stuff. I think they do a good job.

[B]

Well, l' Oreal certainly does have the science funding and they do the research for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so, Adriana, this is a really great question. And of course you're worried. You discolored your hair. Is putting shampoo on it going to actually be detrimental to the hair color? And the answer really is no. Even if you were at a salon getting your hair done, you would want the person to shampoo any extra color away from the hair. This is because hair color uses an excess amount of hair dyes in the product to ensure that monomers a lot of penetration. And just with some work that we've done in the lab, about 90% of the color does not penetrate the hair roughly. But you need it to be super saturated. And you don't want that excess color sticking to the outside. You don't want it sitting on the scalp. And so the shampoo really is there just to kind of take away the excess stuff so that it's not transferring to a towel or to your clothing. It's not going to get the stuff that's gone into the middle of the hair fiber. And so I recommend just using the shampoo for. For those safety reasons. Also, hair color, especially like home hair color, tends to be like intrinsically very greasy or oily.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you want to get that off of your hair. It's kind of like not pleasant feeling to leave it on. And then you want to condition afterwards. But yeah, getting that excess color off is a safety and a mess type of concern. And it's not going to weaken or degrade the color in any way.

[B]

Yeah. I will say I've done some hair color studies. We were working on a product to keep the color in hair better. And I did find, because we were just doing it on tresses and I would use a red hair color, and I did find that if you shampooed it too much, the color would look different in the hair.

[A]

Oh, yes. But not after the first. I mean, the first wash is to get the excess off.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

When you're talking about color removal studies, which is what you're doing, you're doing it multiple times, right. 3, 5, 10. Then the shampoo would be a problem. But this first wash, you just want to get the excess stuff off so it doesn't have contact with your skin or clothes.

[B]

Exactly. And, you know, generally doing hair color at home is hard too. So, you know, I, my, I. I had a guy who was our hair color guy, and he always recommended that people should get their hair colored by professionals.

[A]

Yeah, it can be messy, but I'll tell you where, where the real difference is. And this was never popular when I would say at the salon brand that I worked at.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Home hair color and salon hair color, they use the same chemicals, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not reaching for different chemicals. When someone says, oh, no, make it for home hair color. Right. It's the same stuff. I would be reaching out for salon color. But in general, home hair colors usually, like, safer from a color result perspective. They're usually shades of brown, kind of hard to mess up. And if you want like a really unique look or highlights or kind of advanced coloring techniques, you're not going to get that with home hair color.

[B]

Right, right. I think that was kind of his point was that just the whole mechanics of you having to put it on your own head and you're combing it and you're not able to see somebody behind you taking care of your hair is just gonna do a much better job.

[A]

I can always tell when people color their own hair.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Our next question and last question comes to us from Tammy. Hi. I live in a high altitude, 8 to 10,000ft, climbing climate, very dry southwest Colorado town. And I've heard that glycerin in skin care products for face, hands and necks actually draw moisture from the stratum corneum, which is the outermost layer of skin, instead of the water in the air due to a lack of moisture in the air causing drying of deeper skin layers. Most products I see have glycerin at the top of the ingredient list. So I'm wondering if you know of a product that has a less glycerin for those of us living in low relative humidity environments. Thanks so much for all you two are doing to help educate us, Tammy.

[B]

Well, you know, this one is one that comes up every so often and it's, it's one of those skincare ideas. It sounds scientific, but I think it's way overblown. It is, it is true that glycerin and other humectants, hyaluronic acid, for example, sodium pca, they do attract water. And yes, if the very dry environment doesn't have a lot of moisture in it, it's not going to pull a lot of moisture out of the environment. But that doesn't mean it's going to suck the water out of your body into your skin. Because the thing is about products is that they don't just sell you just glycerin. There's also amalia in there. There's also occlusive agents. And so it's a whole formula that the glycerin is one part of that formula that can help to hold water. The rest of the formula too matters, though, too. And so just avoiding glycerin, there's no good reason, I think, to avoid glycerin, even if you're in the conditions that were described here.

[A]

Some skincare formulas have glycerin at a really high percentage. And I would actually say that's very few because glycerin has a very similar sticky dry down and a lot of people don't like that tacky phase. And you really, really notice it above even just a couple percent of glycerin. To be honest, I make my own facial toner and I like to put 5% glycerin in there and you can really feel the stickiness. But that's something I enjoy. Maybe you could use that percentage in a lotion. But for sure, people chemists are formulating with less than 5% percent glycerin in their formulas. And one of the biggest reasons is, yeah, you want to improve the feeling of the water phase. But it's primarily a freeze thaw situation. You want to help make the formula a little bit more stable. And for those reasons, I think it appears towards the top. It's usually used like at 1 or 2 or maybe 3% for a stability type purpose. And honestly a lot of ingredients are just used less than then. So I think it looks like there's more glycerin in the formula than there actually is.

[B]

Yeah. I will also say though glycerin is one of the best studied and most reliable moisturizing ingredients in cosmetics, if it was routinely drying people's skin out in different climates, we would have already known that and formulas would have got away from that for those specific climates. It's traditionally never been a big issue. Even though it's just one of those stories that sounds good. It's. I don't think there's any validity to it.

[A]

I mean, 8 to 10,000ft high is pretty high. You don't think it's a little extra dry up there? I noticed a difference when I leave Texas and go to California. In terms of humidity.

[B]

No, no, it's, it's 100% more. I mean, yeah, it's absolutely more drier up there. You go skiing and you're surrounded by snow and your skin feels very dry. So still, you know, that's, that's true. I just don't think that the glycerin is contributing. Yeah. In your skin products is a problem.

[A]

You know, I would agree with that. And like you said, if you are worried about losing water content in your skin, that's what choosing really rich moisturizers will help do. They contain the emollients and the occlusives which are going to form basically a, a water protecting barrier over the skin to prevent water from leaving your skin. So Tammy, I would look for kind of rich moisturizers to use on top of a serum or a lighter weight moisturizer that has more water content.

[B]

Yeah, and don't forget to buy your skiing pass for next year because they're going on scale now, right?

[A]

I think it's smart business. Speaking of business, I have to go get some work done before my trip. Thanks for listening everyone. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that will help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

[B]

And the Beauty Brains are on Patreon. If you appreciate that. We don't have commercials and we can say pretty much whatever we want. That's only because we are supported by our listeners on Patreon. So if you like what we do and want to support to support the show, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also get a transcript of the show and your questions get a higher priority of answering.

[A]

Also, if you have a question and want to hear your own voice on the show, don't forget to send us an audio question. We also prioritize those. You can record one on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can use the form in the show notes of this episode or call call our 1-872-Number-1-872-216-1856. We promise we will never pick up the phone. Just leave a message.

[B]

Although I I did record the greeting. Hi, this is a Beauty Brain.

[A]

I have like a. I should call it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at The Beauty Brains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a T tik tok and YouTube.

[B]

Yeah, well, good show today.

[A]

I had a great time. I look forward to seeing everyone next week. Thanks again for listening everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[B]

Thanks everyone. Kittens.