In this episode, I'm joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about leadership through a behavioral lens. John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic, or disconnected from observable behavior.

We start by talking about the need to operationalize leadership in behavioral terms and explore the four leadership hats developed by Dr. Paulie Gavoni: leading, training, coaching, and managing. We break down what each of these roles looks like behaviorally, how they function across time, and why effective leaders need to move flexibly between them rather than relying on a single style.

A major theme of the episode is the role of positive reinforcement in leadership. John shares real-world examples from his OBM coursework and his work at Cornerstone Behavioral Services, highlighting how difficult—but necessary—it can be to shift away from punitive and avoidance-based management strategies. We discuss why punishment often "works" in the short term, why leaders continue to rely on it, and how reinforcement-based leadership creates better outcomes for both staff and organizations.

We also spend time unpacking the distinction between leadership and management. John reflects on his own strengths and limitations, describing how he focuses on vision and direction while intentionally surrounding himself with strong managers who excel at systems, logistics, and follow-through. This leads to a powerful discussion about positional authority, seniority, and the myth that leadership status entitles people to treat others poorly.

Throughout the episode, we return to the importance of psychological safety, consistent feedback, and emotional regulation in leadership roles. John shares practical strategies for navigating tough conversations, including how to balance empathy with accountability, how to manage staff expectations, and how to avoid letting emotion drive professional communication (including when not to send that email).

We also talk through concrete tools and exercises for improving leadership practice, such as symbolic problem-solving activities to surface unspoken team issues, written acknowledgment systems, and using assessment tools like the Performance Diagnostic Checklist to guide supervision and coaching. John closes by sharing future directions for developing empirically grounded management assessment tools, along with a preview of his upcoming work and conference presentations.

This is a practical, honest conversation for anyone supervising staff, leading teams, or trying to build reinforcing, values-consistent organizations in human services.

Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode

RBT Course for Adult Services (the 'bridge' course too!)
Sims and Szilagyi (1975). Leader reward behavior and subordinate satisfaction and performance
Stone Soup Conference Registration (use code PODCAST26 at checkout)
Carr and Wilder (2015). The Performance Diagnostic Checklist—Human Services
John's previous BOP appearances
Session 274: Psychological Safety in the Workplace (Supervision CEU!)

Additional Books, Articles, and Ideas Discussed

John's books on Amazon
Komaki (1998). Leadership from an Operant Perspective
McGregor (1960). The Human Side of Enterprise
Daniels and Daniels (2023). The Measure of a Leader
Elliot (2012). Leading Apple With Steve Jobs: Management Lessons From a Controversial Genius
Covey (2020). The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, 30th Anniversary Edition
Harley (2013). How to Say Anything to Anyone
Grenny et al. (2021). Crucial Conversations (Third Edition): Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High

Sponsor shoutouts!

Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more!
HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.
The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26
Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!
The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.
CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here.