445: Talmudic Matthew — Enemies

Summary

The BEMA Podcast - Episode 445: "Talmudic Matthew — Enemies"

Release Date: April 10, 2025
Host/Author: BEMA Discipleship
Guests: Marty Solomon, Brent Billings, Reed Dent, Dr. L. Grover Fricks

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Introduction

In Episode 445 of The BEMA Podcast, hosted by Marty Solomon alongside co-hosts Brent Billings and Reed Dent, the discussion delves into the intricate relationship between Jesus’s teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and Talmudic interpretations concerning enemies. Joined by Dr. L. Grover Fricks, the panel embarks on an excavation of ancient ideas about enemies, exploring how Jesus’s words interact with, challenge, and potentially transcend traditional Jewish law and Roman societal norms.

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"Eye for an Eye" and Its Cultural Context

The episode opens with Brent Billings providing an overview of last week's discussion on oaths and their violent historical implications. He emphasizes Jesus’s nuanced approach to such legalistic constructs, suggesting that Jesus's teachings are not random but rather systematically address the kind of future believers are committing to—one of violence versus non-violent resistance.

Brent reads Matthew 5:38-44 (LEB) and introduces Marty Solomon's insights from Episode 96, where Marty posits that Jesus isn’t advocating passivity but instead presenting a dignified form of resistance against Roman oppression. Marty recalls his childhood perception of "eye for an eye" as barbaric, highlighting the gravity with which even seemingly minor retaliations were viewed in ancient times (03:40).

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"Do Not Resist the Evildoer" and Turning the Other Cheek

The conversation transitions to the second part of the passage: "Do not resist the evildoer... turn the other cheek" (02:31). Marty references rabbinic literature, particularly Gamaliel’s teachings, indicating that Jesus’s directive aligns with Jewish thought on handling insults and violence with dignity (06:49).

Brent introduces additional layers by comparing these teachings to modern-day nonviolent resistance, suggesting that Jesus's instructions require intentional preparation rather than reactive measures. This notion is echoed by Reed Dent, who emphasizes the necessity of training and commitment to embody peace rather than defaulting to fight or passivity (14:38).

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Talmudic Interpretations and Historical Context

Dr. L. Grover Fricks joins the discussion to provide a deeper historical context. He explains that the "eye for an eye" principle from Exodus and Leviticus was never meant to be taken literally but rather as a means to ensure fair compensation, similar to today’s legal systems (05:37).

Brent further elaborates on how these laws were interpreted in Talmudic times, where monetary compensation was emphasized over physical retaliation. He shares a humorous yet insightful example of determining the value of pain based on the perpetrator’s complaints, illustrating the practical applications of these laws (06:49).

The panel also explores how Jesus’s teachings interacted with Roman laws, particularly in the context of oppressions like angaria (forced labor). Brent argues that Jesus’s instructions on carrying burdens voluntarily rather than being compelled reflect a subtle yet profound form of resistance against Roman authority (07:47).

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Escalating Talmudic Teachings on Enemies

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to examining a disturbing list of Talmudic teachings that advocate severe punishments for non-Israelites and Gentiles. Brent reads through various prohibitions, each escalating in severity:

1. Moshe’s Wishes: God grants Moshe’s request to dwell among the Israelites while excluding other nations, leading to divine contempt for those who keep their commandments beyond Israel (34:12).

2. Limited Divine Love: God professes exclusive love for Israel, raising theological questions about universal love and the obligations of worshipers towards non-believers (34:52).

3. Proselytes and Wealth: Non-Israelites are condemned even if they adhere to Torah, discouraging generosity towards them and justifying extreme measures against them (35:02).

4. Metaphorical Comparison: Wheat symbolizes Israelites, while thorns represent Gentiles, suggesting a natural and divine segregation between the two groups (36:39).

5. Shabbat Observance: Gentiles keeping Shabbat are deemed deserving of death, enforcing strict boundaries between Israel and the rest of the world (36:45).

6. Torah Study: Non-Israelites studying Torah are punished, promoting a rigid adherence to cultural and religious exclusivity (37:24).

7. Best of Gentiles Deserve Death: Even the best non-Israelites are not spared, reinforcing a cycle of dehumanization and antagonism (37:57).

8. Ignorance of the Law: Ignorant individuals, whether Gentiles or non-studies of Torah, are treated with extreme hostility (38:02).

9. Eradication of Evil: Calls for the eradication of enemies and heretics highlight a readiness for violence against perceived threats (38:40).

10. Defiling Graves: Gentiles are seen as non-essential, merely livestock, dismissing any empathy or respect for their sanctity (38:52).

11. Assistance in Childbirth: Israelite women are prohibited from assisting Gentiles, further isolating and devaluing them (38:53).

12. Pit Dilemmas: A Gentile in a pit facing assistance or abandonment exemplifies the cruelty embedded in these teachings (39:42).

13. Final Condemnations: The culmination of these teachings underscores a systemic dehumanization, portraying non-Israelites as inherently deserving of suffering (39:15).

The hosts discuss the implications of these teachings, recognizing their historical context but also critically examining their alignment with Jesus’s teachings about love and nonviolence towards enemies.

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Implications for Modern Christian Practice

The panel shifts focus to the stark contrast between these ancient teachings and contemporary Christian ethics. They argue that while Jesus’s instructions in the Sermon on the Mount advocate for radical love and nonviolence, historical Christian interpretations and societal norms have often deviated towards exclusion and hostility.

Reed Dent highlights the internal conflicts within Christian communities, where doctrinal differences can lead to divisiveness and mutual antagonism (27:00). He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness in recognizing these tendencies and striving to align more closely with Jesus’s original teachings of unconditional love and forgiveness (31:41).

Brent connects these discussions to the broader narrative of Christian triumphalism, suggesting that the conquest mentality undermines the foundational message of love and compassion. He encourages listeners to rethink their responses to enemies and persecution, advocating for intercessory prayer and communal wisdom as pathways to embodying genuine Christian love (47:50).

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Conclusion: Embracing the Challenge of Loving Enemies

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on the transformative potential of Jesus’s teachings. They reference the biblical story of Aaron and Moses interceding for a plague, illustrating the profound act of standing between the community and divine wrath (56:25). This act symbolizes the essence of praying for and loving one’s enemies, even in the face of betrayal and persecution.

Brent and Reed challenge listeners to embody this priestly intercession in their own lives, moving beyond superficial displays of goodness to deep, sacrificial acts of love and reconciliation. They emphasize the need for intentional preparation and community support to navigate the complexities of loving enemies in a world rife with conflict and division.

Marty Solomon wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with the content further through the podcast’s website, highlighting the importance of community support in fostering these transformative teachings.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marty Solomon (02:31): "It was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist the Evildoer..."

• Brent Billings (07:47): "Which sounds to me awfully familiar to our culture, right? Like, no, no, I'm a Jesus person, so I'm supposed to be kind and compassionate... unless."

• Reed Dent (25:43): "There are governing political kinds of disputes... within our churches, what we actually have are governing political kinds of disputes..."

• Marty Solomon (51:14): "Pray for those who persecute you... but it's a helpful picture of what Jesus might have had in mind..."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 445 of The BEMA Podcast serves as a profound exploration of the tension between ancient Judaic laws and Jesus’s teachings on love and nonviolence towards enemies. By juxtaposing Talmudic interpretations with the Sermon on the Mount, the hosts challenge listeners to critically assess their own beliefs and practices, fostering a deeper understanding of historical contexts and their implications for modern Christian life.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own predispositions towards enemies, seeking to embody the radical love and forgiveness that Jesus advocated. Through community support and intentional practice, the podcast emphasizes the transformative power of aligning one’s actions with the foundational teachings of compassion and reconciliation.

For more in-depth discussions and additional resources, visit The BEMA Podcast website.

Transcript

[Marty Solomon]

Foreign. This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today, Reed Dent and I are teaming up with L. Grover Fricks to excavate some ancient ideas about enemies.

[Brent Billings]

Both Reed and I made a really face.

[Reed Dent]

I think it's. Elle and Brent are teaming up with Reed May. I don't know actually how that should be because it's really Elle's. El's episode.

[Marty Solomon]

No, we are teaming up with El. Elle is our excavation leader, whatever that position is called.

[Reed Dent]

Ye. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Well, okay.

[Marty Solomon]

What do you call that? Are you like a superintendent or run.

[Brent Billings]

The excavation and the undergrads are the ones who actually have to dig around in the dirt?

[Marty Solomon]

Dr. L. Grover Fricks. You got it.

[Brent Billings]

That would be fun.

[Reed Dent]

I'm the undergrad.

[Brent Billings]

That would be fun someday. For the time being, I'm doing great. Who needs that? Okay, so where are we other than still struggling to figure out our intro phrases?

[Marty Solomon]

I'm not struggling. I'm having fun with it.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, good. One of us is. No. Jesus told us at the end of last season's discussion that we are supposed to be. We're called to be invited, to be challenged, to be Torah in the world. So this season, we've seen him claim his authority for interpretation, and then we've been going through his interpretation of the law one elements at a time. And last week we talked about oath and what they look like culturally and how they tied people to a future and often a violent feature. So looked like if I don't do this or this person doesn't do X, then let Y happen to him. Right. And it was often relatively gruesome. So if we pay attention, what's Jesus doing in Jesus's flow here? Right. Our Bible sometimes segments out the different portions and make it look like he's just, you know, flipping through a compendium of random topics. But I don't think he's that higgledy piggledy. I think he's working within the same vein, talking about what kind of future are we committing ourselves to. Is it one of violence through oaths or is it going to look a little bit different? So this text is about struggling between people and struggling with your enemies, and we're going to see how that all flows together. So, Brent, if you would read an unusual pairing of verses here. Verses 38 through 44 of Matthew 5 in the Leb, you have heard that.

[Marty Solomon]

It was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist the Evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him also. And the one who wants to go to court with you and take your tunic, let him have your outer garment also. And whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him too. Give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

[Brent Billings]

Before we kick off and start going verse by verse through any fun teachings that y'all have heard about this little pericope throughout your lifetime of being in the church, any fun takes other than of course, Marty's episode, I think 92, 96, you have heard it said, which totally cracked the thing open for me. First time I heard that many years ago. But any fun, like preconceptions you have in your mind's eye. Before we kick off here, I remember.

[Marty Solomon]

Thinking for many, many, many years how barbaric it seemed the eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth. Like those are supposed to be kind of mild examples. It's just like, oh, an eye, not that big of a deal. A tooth, definitely not that big of a deal. But to me, when I was like, I don't know, six years old hearing this for the first time, I'm like, somebody's just going to rip out your tooth.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, I think six year old Brent is onto something for sure.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, yeah, it is, it is like horrific in its way, but it's also like in this case, like we're about to go on to talk about other things that are. Or have we already talked about them wherever they are. Like murdering.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

So much worse.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I don't remember preconceptions. I actually think it's like I've. A lot of times this is like a total sidebar. But when we talk about like, you know, teachings that we hear in the church, I just realized like I've been at CCF for like 17 years and that's where I go to church. And so like it's been so long since I actually have regularly sat under other teachings.

[Brent Billings]

Sometimes I say stupid stuff. I guess that's your probably.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, exactly. So I don't know about preconceptions. I have heard Walter Wink is like a writer, advocate for Christian nonviolence and he has some good stuff on this and I think Stanley Hauerwas does too. Just about turning the other cheek intentionally Taking the vulnerable position, that kind of thing. But as far as like, you know, maybe faultier preconceptions, I don't know. However, I do agree with you that eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth does sound. I actually never think about. I just hear it as the phrase, you know, as the idiom. But then I think about like, literally.

[Brent Billings]

I'm like, oh, yeah, gross. Well, I love giving helpful resources more than giving bad takes, so thanks for that. That's probably more helpful. But let's walk through this thing, starting off with very provocative first phrase. An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. So this comes out of Exodus 21, Leviticus 24, but people should be relieved to know by the Hellenistic era, it's not being walked out in that pretty brutal way. The Mishnah says you've got to compensate, mostly monetarily, for the following person's damages, for their pain, for the cost of the cure, for their loss of earnings, and for their humiliation. So pretty similar to today, the way that our court system tallies up how much somebody has to pay. One detail I love is the pain part. Like, how do you determine how much someone's pain is worse is worth? And they would estimate it based on the perpetrator and how much he would have complained and demanded if it had happened to him. Like, okay, we know Steve is a real wuss, so he definitely would have demanded 300 denarii. So that's what we're going to make him pay.

[Marty Solomon]

Wow.

[Brent Billings]

It's pretty great. The crimes that don't get financial compensation and have other, other punishments or retributive justice is. Lying about your caste is one of the big ones that gets you lashed. So if you remember from last season, we talked about the genealogy of Jesus and how he belonged to a caste and caste system that was lower than other folks. And you're not supposed to socialize and marry outside of your caste. So if you lied about your caste, right, that has to have a punishment in order for the system to work out. So you would get lashed for that. Other things, as if you lie in a trial or especially if you lie about somebody owing money when they don't owe money, it's another one. But they said that this couldn't be literal because what if your eye is bigger than your victim's eye? That's not really fair.

[Reed Dent]

Only one way to find out. I mean, we got to take them out and measure them.

[Brent Billings]

So did anyone ever follow this rule? Possibly the Essenes, possibly another sect that might have been the Essenes. And we're just not sure, but that's going to come up later. So let's keep trotting along here through this text. The next line is, but I say to you, do not resist the evildoer, but whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him also. So I'm going to keep referring back to Marty's teaching episode 96. Marty talks about how Jesus isn't really saying, just don't just be a doormat, you know, let whatever happen. But Jesus is challenging Roman oppression in a tele slant way, right? In a cheeky, facetious, wink, twinkle in his eye way. And so Marty talks about in that episode that he's saying, if you're going to hit me, hit me with dignity, right? Treat me like a human being. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, go back, listen to that episode before you get to this one. We see that in rabbinic literature, Gamaliel says whoever strikes another with the wrong hand or with a paper, a tablet, animal skins that haven't been treated gross, they must pay double because it was an insult causing blow. So Jesus says you might not be able to get the Roman to set down his tablet before he hits you, right? That he's like writing his whatever on, but you can tilt your own face. That's something that you can control. So that he has to hit you with the proper hand. That idea of forbearance has some precedent in Talmudic literature. There's lines like, whoever yields God passes over all his sins. Tractate Shabbat says, those who are oppressed and do not oppress back, who hear bitter abusive language and do not return it, who act out of love and rejoice in sufferings about them. Scripture says those who love him are like the rising of the sun and its power, which is from the Song of Deborah in Judges 5. However, there's also a pretty prevalent idea throughout Ravenic literature that says if someone wants to kill you, you gotta beat them to it. So one passage says, if one comes upon you to kill you and you're able to overpower him, do not stand still and say, I would not be guilty of his blood. Do not ponder in your heart, but rather kill him at once. So there's this whole book by Ronan Bergman called Rise and Kill first, which is another line from the Talmud about how modern Yisra'el has applied this Talmudic interpretation to their politics and assassinations, etc. So if you're interested in thinking through that and you like nonfiction, you might find it interesting. But on top of that little principle, they also add, any Gentile who strikes an Israelite is worthy of death. Which really makes the zealots point of view make sense, right? Of course, all Romans deserve to die. If they've ever even slapped one of our people, they deserve death. So we have that split. Like, don't oppress others, bully for you if you're able not to, you know, respond to abusive language. But if this line is crossed, that they decide, right, if you're a Gentile or if you're pretty sure that they really want to kill you, then it's like, I don't think so, bucko. You know, they. They have a line that they say, nope. Once that gets grasped, everything changes. Which sounds to me awfully familiar to our culture, right? Like, no, no, I'm a Jesus person, so I'm supposed to be like, kind and compassionate and put the gospel on display and everything. Unless. Right.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm just thinking about how there's probably somebody out there who. I'm pretty sure they want to kill me. So what should I do about that now, El?

[Brent Billings]

Well, you can ref to our previous episode, I believe, recorded with Reed on reconciliation.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, that's. That's probably the better option. You're right. You're right. Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, boy. Okay, carrying on. The one who wants to go to court with you and take your tunic, let him have your outer garment also. So all the honored Marty's taught us about this. If you give your creditor both of your garments, that's all of your garments, right? You only have two. And again, it's this cheeky, playful, but still serious form of non violent resistance. And what's really inconvenient to your oppressor if you're naked? Great question. Even though we think about Romans being naked all the time, right? Festivals, sporting events, they're like that. And so much of the art, propriety and decorum, it's actually really important to them. And you could face fines and punishments and beating for nudity. So if someone demands all of your clothes to satisfy your debt, it's like, great, you're going to leave me like this. It's going to take like 90 seconds for that guard on its rounds to stroll around the corner and see me. And you better believe I'm going to tell him exactly what happened, right? You want that extra paperwork? It's that kind of, you know, grit in the. In the cog. The problem in the system that Jesus is encouraging people to find while still maintaining a Posture of a kind of cheerful humility, like, okay, go for it. Right. And I really do think that it, this is about dealing with Roman oppression because Talmud says you are never entitled to deprive a man of his covering for it is appropriate for his body. So this wouldn't have been something that the court system within the Jewish community would have been being like, yeah, take his clothes because it's part of the halacha that you may not do that.

[Reed Dent]

Stanley Hauerwas, I'm remembering he talked about how he doesn't like the word pacifism because he says it's just, well, so passive. Um, but the way that Jesus teaches here and like you said, the kind of brilliant. There's like something kind of ingenious about these responses. They actually takes forethought. It takes some preparation, it takes some thinking like ahead of time, like what is the way that we will go if we are faced with this and that. It takes like actually a great deal of imagination and I guess just like commitment and work to know how to respond in a way that's not like the gut level instinct of. I like, I think the base instinct is either fight back or be a doormat, you know, and like either one of those can kind of be like the simplest, like path of least resistance kind of thing. Like water takes.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

But here Jesus gives and it really is like very brilliant, but takes. Yeah. I think preparation and commitment are the words that come to mind about the garment and about the turning the cheek.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, it's very intentional. It's not reactive. It's not a dramatic, like, how dare you? I'm a person, you know, that's not violent. But it's also not like, oh, woe is me. I'm gonna stand up for my humanity and my dignity. Right. It's not like calling over the crowds to witness, you know, something really. Oh, I don't want to say over the top because that's rude, but something really self focused. It's like, okay, yeah, totally, no problem, let me just become naked. I'm happy to do that for you. Let's see how this goes. Let's see how it plays out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Reed Dent]

I think you're bringing up a great point just using the word reactive. Because if, if we are reactive, if we wait until the moment and just are purely reactive, probably it's not going to go well.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

And I, and I think it's like an encouragement to me to know like that. I don't know, sometimes I look at some people and I think, oh, well, you're just like the peaceful, patient one who's just like. You instinctively are going to do the right thing and I'm going to do the wrong thing. But just the nature of this, nature of this teaching is Jesus setting us up to say, no, you can. You can learn this. You can prepare and learn the way of peace.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, that's good. We can train in the path. Makes me think there should, like, some monastery, you know, where the sage runs you through the. The training for the day. Like, what are you doing this situation?

[Reed Dent]

And there's like the Karate Kid montage music playing in the background while you're just like, constantly getting slapped and instead of fighting back, you're like, turning the cheek. Turning the cheek, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, totally. Which I think is part of some of that training, actually, because you have to numb your shins anyway, now I'm off the beaten track, so.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, I like the training analogy because you would think that in this kind of situation, any of these situations where something's happening like this, like, you need to have practiced this because your instinct in the heat of the moment is not necessarily going to be doing these things. So you need to prepare for these situations over and over and over again so that when it does happen, then you instinctually respond the way you want to and not in that reactive way.

[Brent Billings]

Right. Which is the reality for some Americans of stuff that they have to think about and talk to their kids about. Okay, if this happens, what do we do? So good model in the teachings of Jesus here, the next line is, whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him too. So again, how many years ago Marty talked about this? Angaria is the word, and it's a system where Romans could force you to perform a service and compel you to do something. And in this context, it's to escort someone and carry their stuff. We know definitely that this is talking about, again, Roman oppression, because the word here for mile has a specific Roman measurement, just not the same as our modern mile, btw. But they were only allowed to compose someone for that distance, presumably for economic reasons. And this was considered incredibly heinous in Near Eastern honor culture because escorting someone is a huge honor dishonor to do if that person is your rabbi or your patriarch. And so therefore it was this, like, reprehensible dishonor if you're forced to do it. Right? Because that would be like the worst rabbi or the worst patriarch in the world. None of your disciples or no one in your household wants to carry your stuff. Like, things have gone very wrong. And we see that culture reflected in Talmud. So Talmud warns people that Avraham's kids had to be enslaved for 400 years in Egypt. Say why? Or of course, one of the explanations for why is that there's this midrash that in Genesis 12, when Avraham is dealing with Pharaoh, he makes him walk with him for four steps. So one step equals 100 years of slavery. Another spot on Talmud says whoever gives no escort and accepts no escort is like one who sheds blood. For if the people of Yerico had escorted Elisha, he would not have set the bears on the disciples. Totally cultural thing that we totally miss out of the story. We're not aware of that part at all. It's a huge heinous big deal. The first Jewish rebellion partially was in response to Angaria. Like American revolutionaries are like taxes on stamps. That's our last stand. Absolutely not. Game over, everyone. And for the zealots, they're like, like walking? I don't think so. No getting in my 10,000 steps. So Jesus is telling people to do this with a little wink, full sass. Like if you get tapped in to do some Hungaria, it's like you're saying, oh, now I honor you. You're so great and so venerable, just like my patriarch. Absolutely. I'm so happy to escort you. I'm not being compelled at all. And then you trot off with their pack for not just mile, but another, and they have to chase you down so they don't get in trouble for breaking the rules of Hungaria. So again, it's self sacrificial and it's really cheerful. Right. In this non violent rebellion. It's not saccharine, you know, it's not like it's not pompous. He doesn't tell people to like start coding a minor prophet, you know, at the top of your lungs or whatever. And we know that his followers listen to him because Bible trivia, everybody search thing, where later in the story is someone compelled by Romans to carry something.

[Reed Dent]

During the Passion, during the crucifixion.

[Brent Billings]

Ding, ding, ding. Nailed it. Simon of Cyrene.

[Reed Dent]

Gold star.

[Brent Billings]

Gold star. You just preached on it recently, so. Or at least in my imagination, it was recent.

[Reed Dent]

That's why I know.

[Brent Billings]

Great. Perfect.

[Marty Solomon]

I was not thinking far enough ahead. I was trying to think of some other parable or something else.

[Brent Billings]

It's okay, Brent. You'll get him next time.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I don't know about that. Yeah, I'm intrigued though by the flow here. And maybe the Rigid categorization is a little bit too much. But the eye for an eye, tooth for two things seems to be directed towards Jewish law. But then you have the turning the cheek, and that seems to be directed toward Roman relationships. And then you're back to the tunic thing. And that seems maybe more Jewish ish. Like those are the kinds of people that you're going to go to court with. I don't know. Maybe the Romans are taking you to court. Seems unlikely. Seems like they just exercise their power if they have a problem. But then you go back to the mile thing, and that's definitely a Roman. So he's kind of going back and forth, or is that.

[Brent Billings]

I have two answers for you. Okay. One, if you're right and it is variegated and it's switching back and forth, I think that that is interesting because we have two kinds of conflict, right? We have outer family, like outside of the family, conflict with people that we actually think of as enemies and bad guys. But we also have conflict within the family. And both are painful, right. When you can't get the people who are supposed to be doing the right thing to do the right thing, that can almost be more frustrating than calamity coming from the outside. So it's interesting to me to think about Jesus maybe weaving them together like you guys are being the problem to each other, as well as acknowledging the Roman problem. But I still think the case can also be made that all of this is about Rome. Oaths were Roman in nature. So often, of course, they had gotten outside of that. And as we talked about before, But I think the court thing, I'd have to get into the Greek there to try to make my case. But I think that because Talmudically, you're just not allowed to try to take everybody's clothes. Not everybody's clothes, that would be interesting. But all of someone's clothes, it's just not allowed in court. And so that makes me think that maybe there's something going on there. Because who would be compelling you into something? Because definitely, right. Torah tells you you cannot uncover somebody's nakedness, full stop. So to me, that feels like it's a Roman situation of. Of, like, if you think about the tax on the fish or whatever, and you don't have enough fish to give to the Romans, and they say, well, you still owe me 20 fish from last week, so you're gonna have to pay your debt. And then they drag you to a magistrate, right? And they take your clothes. So that's how I would imagine it going But I'm okay if I'm wrong.

[Marty Solomon]

Who knows? I just. Yeah. Just mulling over the possibilities.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely. Reid, you've got a thinking face.

[Reed Dent]

I'm just looking again at the passage, and I think that's a really interesting possibility, actually, that he's. Or even if so, when he says, you've heard it said, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. So we've already established that that's, you know, a reference to Torah, and maybe he's then utilizing it to say. So when he says, do not resist an evil person or evildoer, I don't know if that. That term right there, evildoer, is maybe. Is that like. Is that cueing us whether he's talking about insider or outsider, or is that just generically evildoer? But even making the appeal, though, to both Torah and to Roman law, even if it's all addressed towards this is how you deal with Roman outside oppressors. I still think there's something there and that he's, you know, standing on the ground of both of these insider and outsider laws.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

Or he's messing with them. He's amplifying them. He's going the next level with them. But, no, I think that's kind of a brilliant and fascinating idea. And even if Jesus didn't intentionally mean that, I still really like the idea of thinking about the rings of conflict both inside and outside and how they're both really destructive. Yeah. And. And that it would be silly to pretend that, like, our little, like, you know, enclave on the inside, we've all got each other's backs and we're all together and we're just us against the world. It's like. No, we're. We're against each other, too. Like, we've got a lot of work to do at every. In every sphere of our communal life.

[Brent Billings]

Totally. Which is like, if we can't handle. Handle, like, interface, faith in fighting, how can we possibly present the gospel. Well, to the world. Right. To oppressors, to enemies. Well.

[Reed Dent]

And with the way. Sorry, not to get on, like, a soapbox too much, but that's why you're here, to get on a soapbox.

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Reed Dent]

I mean, in our time and place today, it feels like those boundaries have been blurred a lot. Like between, you know, the political sphere and the church sphere. The church community sphere. That those actually aren't that neat and clean and that within our churches, what we actually have are governing political kinds of disputes, you know, and I'll save the. I'll save the. The rest of the soapbox for, you know, another time.

[Brent Billings]

But no, totally. It's like instead of saying we are a family and we have differences, it's saying if you take this doctrinal position on this issue, guess what? You're not in the family. You have betrayed the word of God, you have betrayed the Lord, and you're actually of the outside. You're actually of the world. So, yeah, big bummer. Well, let's carry on.

[Marty Solomon]

Onward we go.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, okay. We have give to the one who asks of you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. So usually have a big lead up that's like showing, you know, stringing us along until we find out what the big Talmudic differ is in the rabbinic literature. But it's pretty clear cut here. Spoilers. It's the Gentiles. You don't have to do this. If somebody's a gentile, you can charge interest on them. You don't have to give them alms. All this stuff that you're not allowed to do in Torah. They said actually totally fine if they're a gentile. And Jesus doesn't mention all of those ifs, ands and buts. And just like today, right, we love to cook up a huge library of reasons not to actually follow this literally, right? The list on the scroll goes out the door, into the yard, into the street. Just a few that will be super familiar. I guess maybe not for everyone, but for many of us, right? It's not good for the poor. You have to teach them to fish. Don't give them fish. They probably, you know, don't have that particular need. They just have that sign, it's a scam, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Going down. It just feels depressing to me. And I'm not even trying to argue with a bunch of those points, right? We should teach people to fish, et cetera. But I just want to be aware of those instincts of if Jesus says something, give to the one who asks you. And we immediately jump in with a but that instinct isn't new. And we see it in Talmud, but we also see it in classic church fathers, which of course had a big impact on church culture today. So Augustine said, when you're saying no to someone asking something of you, make sure to be super pompous and annoying about it. So he says, show the righteousness of your refusal. And such correction of the unlawful petitioner will often be a better gift than the granting of his suit. Oh, super helpful. Thanks, Augustine. Jerome says, if the rich are always giving. They won't be able to continue to be generous. Heard that one, right? So on the other hand, that wasn't always the through line through the history of the church, the early church, who we always say we want to be like, they are the ones who took Jesus's benevolence and Jesus's non violence so seriously that they believed you could not be in the military or own a weapon and be a Christian. Like you're apostate if you say that you're a Christian and you join the military. So they answered Augustine by saying, yeah, or Jerome, you won't be able to continue to be generous in the same way. You're right, so make it really good when you do do that. So they'd free their slaves, they'd give away these huge estates because wealth and inequality at that time was nuts. And they'd go and join like a self sufficient commune which created some kind of good and had its own food production. And then they'd sneak out at night and go minister to the army, right, the people that they were being oppressed by and minister to them and heal them and give them food and all this stuff. So when we look this verse in the face and we sense within ourselves what our response is, I just want us to be self aware about like which thread of Christian history do we want to align ourselves with and where, where does following that thread lead us and take us?

[Reed Dent]

And which parts of the teaching of Jesus? Like just noticing within myself and within with the people that I know. Like which parts? Because it seems like there are some parts that we really want to stick it to the letter, like nope, this is exactly what it says and you got to do it just like this. And then there are other times where it's like the well, but also, but this, you know. And I find that often those are things that have to do with money and it's, you know, like, well, but he probably didn't really mean it exactly like that, you know, and so just noticing the tendency within yourself and I, I don't pretend at all here to be able to just settle this easily by saying no, like, like you. So you should just do everything literally and sell all of your possessions right now and become homeless. Like I'm not, I'm not saying that, I am only saying that as we've said before many times, I think that just that there is attention within ourselves that needs to be paid attention to and not swept under the rug and that this is something that we like. There's there's probably, well, I will speak for my own self. There's probably more that I am being asked to do than I am doing and willing to do. Do you know?

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

And that I need the challenge of just the words stated just like this, without qualification, without condition, just to confront me and then to. To decide how I'm going to yield to that or not.

[Brent Billings]

Especially when the contrast that Jesus is leaning into is a culture that also had exceptions and said, but not after this.

[Reed Dent]

It was like, well, right, exactly.

[Brent Billings]

What, therefore, would Jesus us say to us? Right. What would the letter to the American church be if Revelation was to be written Now? Okay, cruising along through our excavation here, the number of mixed metaphors is sky high. We have. You have heard it said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. So Marty nailed it on the head back in episode 96. He says, we don't see the saying attested in first century mainstream Jewish literature, but we do see it in the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's true. It's in the Rule of Community, one of the big important texts from Qumran that I'm going to argue that Jesus isn't just talking to the Essenes in the crowd. Though I'm sure if I asked Marty 10 years ago, he would have not just said that. But I want to expand on that idea because there's this vicious through line that courses through the rabbinic literature, and we're going to get treated to some of it. I've got 13 escalating teachings escalate into wildness as we go along these quotes. So we keep having these entertaining one word for it lists in these episodes, and it's the section to really buckle up for. So here you go. There's your warning.

[Reed Dent]

Buckled.

[Marty Solomon]

I've been extremely excited for this moment ever since I saw it in the document.

[Brent Billings]

Great. I kind of Wish it was 12, but I apologize. 13 it is.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, here's our baseline. Before we escalate onward. Here's the teaching about Moshe. Moshe apparently asked for three things. One was that the presence of God would dwell with the sons of Yaakov. But then his next genie wish was that the Shekhinah, the presence of God, would never dwell with the people of the world. And then third wish that even if they kept all the commandments, they should still be cast down. And God is described as saying, yep, yep, yep, you got it to all of those requests. Cool, cool, cool.

[Reed Dent]

Crickets.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Also not in line with the prophets. Right. And talk about the Spirit being poured out upon all the Nations. But whatever. But whatever.

[Marty Solomon]

I don't know how to feel about that.

[Brent Billings]

Just saying. Read your own book. Number two, of all the nations that I have created, I only love Yisra'el supposedly says God. And then a rabbi posits if the God is the exemplar. No. Then a rabbi posits, if God the exemplar is barren of universal love for humanity, how should his worshipers and followers feel obligated to such love?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, that's.

[Reed Dent]

I mean, that's funny kind of. But that's also just like dead on to the way that a lot of people.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

I think actually. Actually think and live.

[Brent Billings]

Right. We might say, like, God is love, but we're like, for us. Obviously. Obviously not all those books. Number three, if all the peoples of the world came together and said, we will sell all our possessions and keep Torah and the commandments, God would answer them and say, even if you sell all of your possessions to acquire the Torah, my contempt is still upon you. You. They big bummer. No. Which they have rules about proselytes and how you're supposed to be nice to them, but only if they follow all of the commandments and don't leave off even one. So I don't know how that works out, but still a bummer. Number four, Wheat is a metaphor for Israelites and they belong in the storehouse of God, but thorns belong in the fire and dung on the manure heap. And those are. Are Gentiles. So super kind. Reminds me actually of John the Baptist when he is out there by the Yarden spitting fire as he does. And it almost, to me feels like he's turning the tables and being like, no, maybe we're the problem. Maybe we're the chaff. Maybe we're the thorns, actually, not those other people. That one's kind of fun. Number five. A gentile who keeps Shabbat is guilty of death, for they shall not rest day and night. According to. That's taken from Genesis 8. Or it talks about how everybody should rest, but creation won't. So saying that Gentiles don't get a part in Shabbat because they're just part of the rest of the world. They're not the protagonists, like animals.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, that could have some implications for the things that we have talked about.

[Brent Billings]

Gotta go back. Delete season. Whatever that was. Whoopsie daisies.

[Marty Solomon]

That was seven.

[Brent Billings]

Now seven. That makes sense.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Good job. Yeah, I totally had something to do with that. So definitely deserve to be in the US There. Number six, following the Same line. A non Israelite who occupies himself with Torah is guilty of death for it says the Torah. Moshe commanded us so non Israelites who study Torah must be stoned to death for they are practicing fornication with the Jews law.

[Reed Dent]

Wow, that's a spicy way to say that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, pretty much takes care of the rest of our season. So let's just shut this podcast down.

[Brent Billings]

I'm so sorry, everyone. We didn't know that we're sentencing everyone to a horrible death. Death are bad ttyl in the world to come. Okay, number seven. The best of gentiles deserves death. So even if you're not doing, you know, terrible things like keeping Shabbat or studying Torah and you're the best.

[Reed Dent]

That's it.

[Brent Billings]

Just. Yes. Yeah. The best of gentiles deserves death. The end.

[Reed Dent]

There is no hope.

[Brent Billings]

Nope. There's actually another one that didn't make the list that talked about that. There's no hope for these guys. Guys. Number eight. I feel like I've brought this one up before. It is permitted to tear one ignorant of the law like a fish. Ignorant of the law can refer to either gentiles or Jewish people who haven't studied Torah. So kind of a catch 22 there, Josiah. Yeah, yeah. Number nine. Number nine. Now we're going to get even more pointed. Let the evil empire be eradicated soon in our days. Let the Christians and the heretics perish. In a moment.

[Reed Dent]

No notes.

[Brent Billings]

Number 10. Still got four more to go. Number 10. Do not defile the graves of gentiles. Oh, that's nice, right? You're like, oh, thank you.

[Reed Dent]

So nice for you.

[Brent Billings]

Israelites are my sheep and you are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings, but livestock. So what you noticed before?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, nailed it.

[Reed Dent]

Are they saying like in the Talmud, are they like. And this is something God said, like what? It's just, just.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, it's just a. Don't bother defiling a grave of a cow. Why would you put you in the energy?

[Reed Dent]

Such a waste of time. It's just a cow, after all.

[Brent Billings]

Number 11. An Israelite woman is not to assist a gentile in childbirth. Devastating. Number 12. Getting back into the humorous while also being devastating. If a gentile falls into a pit. Pit. Do not pull him up or push him down. But if the Christians and the traitors and the apostates fall into a pit, push him down and do not pull him up.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, I've heard that one before, actually.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, last one. If when walking by an opening to a pit, there Is one of these Gentiles, Christians, etc, inside? Cover the pit with a stone and say something like. Like, this is so livestock can pass over it. If they're in a pit and there is a ladder.

[Reed Dent]

I'm sorry.

[Brent Billings]

If they're in a pit and there is a ladder, remove it and say something like, I want to have my son climb down from the roof.

[Reed Dent]

At least you're saving a little face. I guess. Like, sorry, I really need this. My kid's stuck on the.

[Marty Solomon]

Sorry, I can't make it to your football game. I gotta wash my hair.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, right. But a little more murderous.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

I mean, we can at least just respect, like, how ruthlessly consistent and committed and outspoken they are. Right? Like, they're not. They're. I mean, that is. That is something.

[Brent Billings]

They're not pulling any bunches.

[Marty Solomon]

But also, what are they doing in that pit with a ladder that they're waiting for somebody to come along and take it away. Like, get out of that pit. Right away.

[Reed Dent]

They got some. There was already a gentile down there. And then another gentile was like, hang on, I'll get a ladder and climb down and get you. And they're down there trying to help them. And then they come along and they're like, my son needs this.

[Brent Billings]

Doing some home renovation. I really need.

[Reed Dent]

You can both stay down there. And then it's like a double bonus because you got two stuck in the pit instead of one.

[Brent Billings]

I've seen the old movies. It's that there was a child and they had a little dog, and the little dog ran into the cave.

[Marty Solomon]

There it is.

[Brent Billings]

Always.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Okay. So pretty dark.

[Marty Solomon]

I don't. I don't. Yeah. How can we do anything but laugh at this? Because it all seems so preposterous. But they were serious about this, right?

[Brent Billings]

Yes. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

How. How can we. But, okay, so this is maybe a slightly weird connection, but, like, have you guys seen the movie Scarface?

[Marty Solomon]

I have not. I'm sorry.

[Reed Dent]

I promise this is going somewhere. Scarface. Al Pacino. He's the mob boss who gets really rich selling drugs. Well, he joins the country club, and there's this kind of famous scene in the movie where. Where all these people in the country club are, like, looking down at him, like, turning their noses. And then he goes off on everybody, and he basically says, like, you're just like me. I just don't lie about it.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Ooh.

[Reed Dent]

Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, these Talmudic things, it's like, it speaks to something that I think is real in A lot of us and in our. And we, we have, you know, we have decorum and we have manners.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

But. But underneath that, I don't know that it's really that different from how brazen, like, and how spiteful and how hateful, like, these things are that are being said. And so, yeah, it's super funny because of just, you know, the language and the particulars of the, you know, the situations with ladders and pits and cows and whatever. And yet it's. I'm like, well, yep, I think if I probably took a good look at my life, there's somebody who. I would take the ladder out of the pit, you know?

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

Sorry.

[Brent Billings]

No, you're exactly. Your compass is set the same direction as mine. I, I want to again, practice self awareness and note that it's really easy to stand and be like, wow, that's really cringe. They really lost the plot. And maybe feel a little horrid, horrified, but also pretty superior. Like Jesus followers, we've really, you know, got what this is all about. We obviously have the keys to who God is, because we know that's not okay. But like you said once we double click on, like, well, are there people in Christian culture that we've decided it's okay to hate because it doesn't matter or because they deserve it or because it's not even the other side, but they're our own people, but they think and do things differently than us, and so therefore they've betrayed the cause or. Right. And I think this cuts both ways. Right? Conservatives do this about liberals, and liberals do this about conservatives. We do it about sports and politics, workplace. We have all of these, all of these socially acceptable things that we do that are really just different clothes put over hate. Right? Like, what's the best joke that you can make at the expense of a president or a famous pastor? And it's like, well, that's allowed because. Because us, whatever reasons we list out. So I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts or insights on how it is that this most basic teaching of Jesus has, You know, we've totally opened the door to and been like, well, hate. Is it really. Is it really that bad? You know, hate the sin and maybe love the sinner, but like, right, only on a Sunday or whatever. And what does that look like?

[Reed Dent]

I think that for me, the. How do we come to do this? Why do we do this? The. The biggest thing that stands out to me is actually like, it's through all of these Talmudic sayings that you're Giving us. And it's still true now, and that is we think that they are not like us.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

That, I mean, it's always along the line of Gentile, you know, and Jewish in the, in the Talmud. And I mean, even before you got to the list and you mentioned the, the bit about if a gentile even slaps you like you should, which, by the way, feels very like lamech to me and like sevenfold vengeance, you know.

[Brent Billings]

That'S a good poll.

[Reed Dent]

But like, I will, because they are not like me. They are now like an object, a suitable object, you know, and we don't, I mean, we, I guess we call them enemies. We think of them as something less than. Than human, though. And I think another angle for this, for me too, is not just that I think they're not like me, but that they're not. And I think I heard a hint of this too, in the things you were reading. It's not just that they're my enemy, it's that they're God's enemy.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

Like, this actually reminds me of the, the Psalm 139 episode that we did and dealing with, which starts out so nice, you know, oh, you've searched me, you know me, you know, like you've knit me together in my mother's room. And then there' part that's like, I hate these people with complete hatred. And, and there's a line in there that says, do I not hate those who hate you? And to me, that's kind of indicative of this mentality of, well, if they hate God, then they deserve to be wiped out. They deserve to be hated because I'm doing it for God. You. You know what I mean? Yes. It becomes like a we make it holy quote, unquote. I'm doing air quotes. Like, we, we make it a holy kind of indignation and venge. We excuse it. And, and I think too, there's a hint. For me, this is the last kind of layer that I thought about is that like some of our Christian, the way we do Christianity, our Christian narratives are very sort of triumphalist. Like we're about conquering things, you know, and so if you are in a conquest of some kind, if Jesus is conquering something, then, like, who, whoever your enemies are, have to be put underneath your feet, you know, and they have to be like, wiped out.

[Brent Billings]

Subjugated.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah. And so, like, like these passages where Jesus says very straightforwardly, as we're pointing out again and again, like he's intentionally removing the conditions, he's removing the Qualifications to really, like, shove it in your face. We, we tend to then want to find and pull in all of these conditions from somewhere else anyway because. And it's like somehow twisted ironically, like in the name of God, right, that, that we sort of ignore the words of Jesus, right?

[Brent Billings]

Like, look, I would love to bless and serve you and love you in these specific ways. And if only I could. If it wasn't that you just held this position or whatever. I think you're right on. Even the rule of the community that we referenced way at the beginning, it doesn't say that specifically. It's not the exact word words that Jesus has. It's a little bit more complex than that because it says to love your neighbor and hate the ones that God hates. It's something like that can look it up, we can link it in the show notes, but God's brought into it because that makes it okay. You know, we're supposed to have this humble posture and et cetera. Unless we believe that God has given us the, you know, the get out of jail free card to, to really castigate and dehumanize and belittle others. When we have all these commandments that say, like, count others more significant than yourselves. Philippians, it doesn't say anything else. It doesn't say unless they're from that sect and camp, which there were all those sects and camps back then. So it's not like, well, back then they were all unified. No, they absolutely were not. And then other thing that sprang to mind, and I love that you pointed out that Jesus doesn't make those commendations because I kind of imagine him delivering this line of, you have heard it said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. And then the next line that he says, pray for those who persecute you. And I imagine him just like leaving it there and everybody just like blinking at him, waiting for him to be like, unless, unless. And him just like holding the silence to make his point.

[Reed Dent]

I mean, surely, I think that this has to be the most radical teaching that Jesus gave and is kind of the key to the whole thing. Like when other parts of Paul's letters or the things that John is writing, when Paul is saying, yeah, the mystery of the gospel that was long hidden and has now been revealed is that like it is that there is the inclusion, like the Gentiles are just as much a part of the family as we are, and that there is none of this. There's none of these dividing lines. I think that has to be based on the teachings that we've been talking about in the Sermon on the Mount. This one specifically. The forgiveness one specifically. I've said it a hundred times, and I feel like it's really true that the thing that is most just counter and confrontational to our maybe basic human nature is the call to, like, forgive and love and include not just a stranger, but an enemy, but somebody who has really taken something from you that. That is like the kind of the. The. The. In my mind, like the biggest, the ultimate, the last threshold that we cross into fully, like, being people of the love of God and of the compassion of God. And it's something that is, like, running. It's the foundation, I think, of what Jesus is teaching and doing. Not just teaching with his words, but like, doing with his life over and over and over.

[Brent Billings]

Right. Healing the Roman centurion kid as well as God's people. Absolutely amazing. I want to close this out by looking at this. Pray for those who persecute you. That sounds like I'm about to do closing remarks, and I sure am not. Just prep yourself. We're not. We're not at the landing strip here, but I've always heard this. This idea in contrast to hate your enemies. Right. Pray for those who persecute you to be like. Be in a place in your heart where you can think nice things about the person. Like, generally, don't be mean. Feels pretty Southern, like, lord, help her. She sure needs it. And I think it doesn't really help that for some of us, our theology of prayer is really around, like, rit in symbolism and just general spiritual practice. And it's for our benefit. And it doesn't often feel like we're really doing anything. And so if we have that lens on, this verse can be translated like, don't really do anything about people who persecute you. Just think the nicest thoughts you can. Right. Wish well for them.

[Reed Dent]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

That doesn't. First off, that doesn't really match the timbre of the rest of Jesus's teachings here, which are, like, radical and kind of poke you in the eye with.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, it does seem a little bit off. Like, just completely retreat from everything you said, but. Okay, okay, just say something nice.

[Brent Billings]

Thoughts and prayers. Right. And it also doesn't really match the Bible's picture or narratives around prayer that actually come up. So I want to take a minute and poke our heads back into Tanakh and see if we can find anything that matches what Jesus commands of us here. I'm not so sure that this particular reference is like a secret ramez or anything. But it is a helpful picture what Jesus might have had in mind. Because as far as I can find, intercessory prayer for your enemies does not really come up in Tanakh, which is helpful if you have a million references and you don't know what Jesus is talking about. So intercessory prayer in general, we've talked about before. I've talked about the word is like, for this. Serrated. It's more than serrated. It's this knife so that you can grab what's coming for you and disarm it, et cetera. So go back and find wherever that is. I've talked about that before. Sorry. Extra work for Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

I'll see what I can do, probably.

[Brent Billings]

And read a nice prayer episode.

[Reed Dent]

Actually, I was going to say I feel like I was maybe on that episode.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, Ding, ding, ding.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Brent Billings]

So, as we talked about then, probably we have some instances of that kind of intercessory prayer, but it's not usually for enemies. So Yitzhak Isaac lights incense and he prays and he heals Rivkah's infertility through prayer. We have stuff all the time of, like, Moshe praying for Yahushua or Shmuel praying for Shaul. Which boy did he need that? The one that gets closer to enemy territory, but I don't really feel like it's enemy. But somebody could make the argument is Avraham lights incense to pray to heal Avimelech's household after Sarah and his Bonnie and Clyde moment. Sequel.

[Reed Dent]

I never heard it called that before, but I like that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. I'm not sure that Avi Melka is really the enemy there. Right. Because he's just going along. It's like, love, love me. That. That looks good. And then turns out to not go so well for him. Not really his fault that Abraham and Sarai lied to him. So if I want to look at a passage from Tanakh that Torah actually talks about forgiving beyond forgiveness, praying for an intercessory way your enemies and how that's actualized, other than just being like, like, boy, God, if you could do something about that person, that would really be great. Right. That's not active. That's not engaged. It's pretty passive. I want to take us to number 16, which is our second flip back to numbers this season. In the Context of number 16 is the rebellion of Korah. So if you don't remember it, you can read the whole thing, give it a study. It's very dramatic. Has Lots of interesting things in it. I'm really excited to get to it when we get to it eventually. In Textanest that Korah and his boys are the sons of Levi, and they want to have Moshe and Aharon's jobs. And so they muster their force, which is kind of a lot. And he says, you think you're the holy ones. Which, by the way, is exactly what the doctrinal sides in Christianity say to one another. Right? Things escalate. Moshe's frustrated. He sets up a little task to prove that God isn't with the sons of Korah. And a whole bunch of families get swallowed up by the earth, which is exactly what Moshe had just said should happen. And then God does it. It's pretty dark, so everybody else in the camp surprisingly doesn't feel super great about that. The rest of the camp is starting to side with Korah. So our passage jumps right in the middle of the drama. Moshe and Arawn are being beseeched by the people. So if you could start us in verse 41, Brent Billings. This is the leb.

[Marty Solomon]

The next day, all the community of the Israelites grumbled against Moses and Aaron, saying, you have killed the people of Adonai. Then when the community had gathered against Moses and Aaron, they turned to the tent of assembly, and behold, the cloud covered it and the glory of Adonai appeared. And Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of assembly. And Adonai spoke with Moses. Moses spoke to Moses, excuse me, saying, get away from the midst of this community and I will finish them in an instant. But they fell on their faces. And Moses and Aaron said, take the censer and put fire on it from the altar, place incense on it and bring it quickly to the community and make atonement for them. Because wrath went out from the presence of Adonai and a plague has begun. And so Aaron took it just as Moses had spoken, and he ran into the midst of the assembly. For behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he gave the incense and made atonement for the people. He stood between the dead and between the living, and the plague was stopped.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, I love this for talking about what it means to love your enemies, for talking about what it means to pray for those who persecute you, to intercede. Right? Because these people are not just like enemies in general. They're not just, you know, going about their business. They are actively their own people. Right? The thing that's most hurts the most, betrayal are turning on Moshe and Aharon. Even though God has just showed up and shown that he's on the side of Moshe and Aharon, and yet they're about to receive the justice of God. And I can imagine being in that place and being like, boom, yeah, sucks to be you. Obviously, I think an actual plague, I hope that I would be a better person. I don't think I'm that I hope I look more like Jesus than being like, yeah, you should suffer and die. But that instinct is still within us, right? To be like, yeah, God is on my side. And you're about to experience that. Get ready. And instead, just maybe Jesus gives this command that could potentially reference the story about what it means to be a kingdom of priests. Right. Because Moshe and Aharon are priests. And their job in the story that they take upon themselves is to run into the midst of the people, stand between the dead and the living, and make atonement, make intercession within sense. Are we willing to do that? Are we willing to run with full force, full heart, full forgiveness, full compassion, and run into the midst of people no matter how much we've been hurt by them and risk our own lives? Right. It's a plague that's not just like, you know, know the spirit of the Lord wiping people out with a big sword or something. Plagues are transmittable, right? So they are doing this at cost to themselves in order that potentially there might be well being and wholeness in the community. Community again, opposite picture. Sniping on social media, making little comments, snickering at the means memes, making fun of people hoping for their downfall. Can we be Aharon on, can we do this in our communities? Can we look more like this kingdom priests and actually follow the challenge of Jesus?

[Reed Dent]

I mean, truly. No notes. I think that's so, so beautiful. Such a beautiful picture. Like thinking about Aaron and Moses being kind of persecuted. You know, that word coming into play and just what a check you have to do to your own ego and pride, right? When it's like, oh, these people thought they could do this better than I could.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

And that was the nature of the persecution in this particular story. And to be able to literally go stand in the gap, I mean, I just. Yeah, that's powerful with urgency.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Bring it quickly to the community and make atonement for them running into the midst of the assembly.

[Brent Billings]

Full send, as the kids say.

[Reed Dent]

And I just like too, thinking about figuratively, like standing between the living and the dead.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Not just literally the literal dead, but figuratively standing between the living and the dead.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

Or the. The. The figurative dead, I guess, is what I mean.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, for sure.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Earlier in the episode, I was thinking about, like, what do you do in a situation where your neighbor is your enemy? And I think this, you know, perfectly answers that.

[Brent Billings]

If you don't know what that looks like, if you don't know how to walk it out, if that feels compelling, but you just don't know what that means in your context, ask God. But also, also get in community, seek out wisdom, seek out the spirit together, what my creative priestly sprinting, interceding for our enemies actually look like.

[Reed Dent]

Amen to that.

[Marty Solomon]

Amen. All right, you can find more details about this podcast@bamboo stepship.com you can use the contact page there to get in touch with us. You can find a way to support our work. Everything that we do is made possible by listeners like you who support the things that we're doing. So thank you for that and thanks for joining us on the Baymaw podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, I've seen a clip, and it's of an Orthodox priest and he's like, holding a sensor and he's just bolting down the aisle and back and down the aisle and back. Like if is, you know, he is a running back, something, something football. And all the comments are like, what is going on? Right. Does he have a bee underneath his robes? What is happening? But I'm super curious. Like, it's a video from the COVID era. So maybe he was like, we're going to walk this out. Pretty dang. Literally.

[Reed Dent]

That's awesome.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I love it.

[Reed Dent]

Seems like something Derek would do. It does.

[Brent Billings]

He has a compatriot in the Greek Orthodox Church somewhere.

[Marty Solomon]

Indeed.