446: Talmudic Matthew — Children

Summary

Episode 446: Talmudic Matthew — Children
Release Date: April 17, 2025
The BEMA Podcast by BEMA Discipleship

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Introduction

In Episode 446 of The BEMA Podcast, hosts Marty Solomon and Brent Billings, alongside guest Elle Grover Fricks, delve deep into the intricate meanings behind being "children of God" as presented in the Sermon on the Mount. This episode, titled "Talmudic Matthew — Children," seeks to unravel the cultural, historical, and linguistic layers embedded in Matthew 5, providing listeners with a richer understanding of biblical texts through the lens of Talmudic teachings and ancient Near Eastern contexts.

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Understanding "Children of God" in the Sermon on the Mount

The episode opens with a lively discussion on Matthew 5:44-48, where Jesus instructs, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... you must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Elle Grover Fricks sets the stage by referencing previous discussions and emphasizes the challenge of interpreting these profound commands within their original context.

Brent Billings reads the passage:

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven." (03:18)

This reading prompts the trio to explore the deep implications of such teachings, questioning what it truly means to embody the identity of God's children beyond mere sentimentality.

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Cultural and Historical Context

Marty Solomon introduces the foundational concepts essential for understanding the passage:

• Patriarchal Culture: A household led by a single patriarch who sets the mission and legacy.
• Patrilocal Culture: Emphasizes belonging and identity centered around the patriarch.
• Communal Culture: Highlights the collective identity and mission of the family.
• Patronage System: A socio-economic structure where patrons provide resources and support to their clients or family members to fulfill specific roles.

Marty Solomon reflects:

"We've got to be a different kind of presence in the world. We can't be the logical presence. That makes sense for everybody." (04:37)

This framework contrasts sharply with modern individualistic cultures, offering listeners a perspective on how ancient societal structures inform the understanding of biblical identities.

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Linguistic Insights: Teleios and Tamim

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the Greek word "teleios" and its Hebrew counterpart "tamim."

• Teleios (Τέλειος): Often translated as "perfect," it conveys the idea of maturity and completeness in purpose rather than flawless perfection.
• Tamim (תָּמִים): Translates to "wholeness" or "integrity," frequently associated with sacrificial animals that must be without blemish.

Elle Grover Fricks elaborates:

"Tamim, as seen in Genesis 17, means wholeness, not perfection, wholeness." (40:08)

This distinction is crucial as it shifts the focus from an unattainable state of flawlessness to a more achievable and purpose-driven wholeness, aligning with the biblical mandate for personal and communal integrity.

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Perfection vs. Wholeness in Christian Living

The hosts critique the common translation of "tamim" to "perfect," arguing that it injects a Platonic ideal of flawlessness into biblical teachings, which was not the original intent.

Brent Billings shares his perspective:

"I do really like the idea of maturing into purpose. That is such a helpful way to look at that idea." (47:18)

This reframing encourages believers to focus on growing into their God-given purposes rather than striving for an impossible standard of perfection. It highlights a more sustainable and mission-aligned approach to living out one's faith authentically.

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Talmudic Insights and Practical Application

Incorporating Talmudic literature, the discussion explores how "tamim" emphasizes bodily and communal wholeness. Elle cites examples from the Talmud, illustrating that "tamim" often refers to physical completeness rather than moral or spiritual perfection.

Elle Grover Fricks notes:

"Whatever you want to do with Matthew, you don't. You don't have to be right like Marty and I are about Matthew being written in Hebrew." (44:00)

This integration of Rabbinical perspectives enriches the conversation, bridging the gap between ancient teachings and modern theological interpretations.

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Pursuing Wholeness and Maturity

The episode emphasizes the symbiotic relationship between personal wholeness and effective mission. The hosts argue that nurturing one's own integrity and completeness is essential for genuinely representing God and fulfilling His mission in the world.

Marty Solomon reflects:

"It's not just external mission, it's internal mission. It's about what God's doing in me. It's not about what I can do for God." (46:18)

This holistic approach encourages believers to seek internal growth and healing, ensuring that their external actions align with their transformed identities as children of God.

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Conclusion and Forward Look

The episode wraps up by highlighting the importance of moving beyond superficial interpretations of "children of God" to embrace a more profound, purpose-driven identity. The hosts tease the next episode's focus on wages and rewards within the biblical context, promising to continue unraveling the rich tapestry of cultural and historical insights that inform Jesus' teachings.

Brent Billings concludes:

"What is the point of being perfect anyway? Like, okay, so then check done. Nothing else to do but maturing in purpose." (47:40)

This encapsulates the episode's core message: shifting from an unattainable ideal of perfection to a dynamic journey of maturing into one's divine purpose.

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Notable Quotes

• Brent Billings (03:18):
  "I love the idea of maturing into purpose. That is such a helpful way to look at that idea."

• Elle Grover Fricks (40:08):
  "Tamim, as seen in Genesis 17, means wholeness, not perfection, wholeness."

• Marty Solomon (46:18):
  "It's not just external mission, it's internal mission. It's about what God's doing in me. It's not about what I can do for God."

• Brent Billings (47:18):
  "I do really like the idea of maturing into purpose. That is such a helpful way to look at that idea."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 446 of The BEMA Podcast offers a compelling exploration of biblical identity, urging listeners to move beyond surface-level interpretations. By integrating Talmudic insights and challenging traditional translations, the hosts provide a fresh perspective that emphasizes growth, wholeness, and purposeful living as true markers of being "children of God."

For more insights and detailed discussions, you can find additional resources and show notes at bema discipleship website.

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Transcript

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Foreign.

[Brent Billings]

This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are joining Elle Grover Fricks to take a crack at what it means to be children of God. Woohoo.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I'm excited.

[Marty Solomon]

Taking a crack at it. I love that. It's a great intro line. Big fan.

[Brent Billings]

I'm just picturing myself, like, standing at the. At the mound or not at the mound, at the plate.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure.

[Brent Billings]

And just like taking a swing for it. Is that the idea that you're going for?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, what kind of, what kind of crack are you guys imagining?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That's the one.

[Marty Solomon]

That's it. The home run crack. That's it.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

You know, I'm full of sports metaphors between the theme. I'm the one that brings the heat on sports metaphors.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay. So last week we talked about the stories of number 16, what it potentially looks like to love your enemies when they're plotting against you and even God is ready to strike them down. You're risking your own life like Aharon. You're spreading through the people seeking life and atonement with everything that you have. And that was the picture we talked about. This section, the Sermon on the Mount that we're going to look at today, asks, well, what then? What happens when I give them my tunic and now I don't have clothes? What happens when I cause trouble by bearing someone's burdens for two miles rather than one? Will they magically be like, oh my gosh, now I realize I'm oppressing someone. I'm so embarrassed. Maybe we never know. But what happens when we turn evil for good? Right. When we do that switcheroo like the Proverbs invites us to, will they repent of all their ways? We can't always control other people. We can't control the outcome. And we can be strategic, but we can't really decide whether to do things based on whether they'll work, whatever that means. Right. Instead, we get to make decisions based on our identity and where the spirit is leading us and our values and etc. So in this particular section, Matthew, we get to see what happens when we love our enemies and we pray for those who persecute us. What does God say that happens? So if you could read for us from the rsv, Brent, before he does.

[Marty Solomon]

That, like this thing that you're saying is, it's not what. Boy, it would be nice. You painted this wonderful picture of man. If only I could control their response and provoke exactly what ought to be provoked. Because Obviously, I see goodness, shalom, and righteousness clearly.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Wouldn't it be great? Well, alas, you are correct. Big bummer not in the cards for us. Oh, well, I'm sure there's something good in here.

[Brent Billings]

I think we've all longed for that at some point.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same. And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same. You therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Thank you, Brent. What kind of things stand out to you guys immediately? What kind of questions pop into your mind? Looking at the sticks that we might be pretty familiar with, I'm thinking about the.

[Brent Billings]

The doublet of those you love and then the tax collectors and then those you salute and the Gentiles, and thinking about, like, how are. How are those pairs communicating things?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I love that.

[Marty Solomon]

Very interesting. I didn't even notice that. That's interesting, huh? I mean, obviously the word perfect. I'm pretty sure we're going to touch on that before we're done. I hate that word. Every time it pops up. Just hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it. I just always see this paragraph missionally, and I'm trying to figure out if I should fight to, like, see it, because there's like a. There's like a. I don't know if I want to call it the reason the mission behind loving our enemies, because I hate what that does to it. But there's a. Like, we've got to be a different kind of presence in the world. We can't be the logical presence. That makes sense for everybody. Like, everybody loves their friends. Of course.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure.

[Marty Solomon]

Like, we gotta be people that love their enemies. Like, I've always seen this paragraph through the. You've gotta be different. You've gotta be different. You've gotta be different.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right?

[Marty Solomon]

You can't do what's practical, what makes sense. I think it was. I mean, I'm probably not gonna quote Russell Moore a whole lot on the Baymo podcast, but Russell Moore recently did a. Wrote an article with Christianity Today, talked about on the podcast where the amount of pastors he talks to on a regular basis that will talk about the Sermon on the Mount. Then have people come up and be like, well, where'd you get those liberal talking points? And it's like, well, actually, that's Jesus. But then they're like, well, that doesn't work anymore. Like, there's that practical nature of what works or what doesn't work. And this paragraph's always been one of those quintessentials. We're not here because of what's working or logical or conventional wisdom. We're here missionally. Like, we're here to be a different kind of presence in the world.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

That's what has always flown off the pages for me.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, I think that's a good thing, to fly off the pages. That's great, because it doesn't say like you're alluding to. It doesn't say, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you'll gain power in the political world to be able to shape national policy to what we believe is good and right.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It says, so that we might be sons of our Father who's in heaven.

[Marty Solomon]

That's good.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So I want to zoom in on that concept, as the title alludes to, and walk us through some questions, some things that popped into my mind with, as always in this particular series, the help of Talmud, another text, rabbinical text. And one of the things that I've heard before is the idea like, Jesus is the one who transformed our relationship with God because he talks about the. He refers to God Contin as Father. And that was introduced to me and maybe other people as an innovation of Jesus. And certainly Jesus is innovative and radical often. But that doesn't mean that we have to, you know, say always that everything that Jesus did broke the mold and broke the box. Kind of like where we talked about in our introductory episode to this season. And so just taking a step second here to point out, while it's not a prominent title in the text in Tanakh, it still does show up. So like Deuteronomy 32, is he not your Father who created you? Shows up also in poetic sections, prophetic sections. We've seen in Hosea recently. But then Isaiah 64. Yet, O Lord, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and Thou art our potter. It gets more popular in Apocrypha, in Sirach and Wisdom of Shlomo especially. Sirach says, o Lord, my Father and commander of my life, do not let my tongue cause me to fall. Relatable. And then wisdom 14. But your care, O Father, it steers the ship because you have given away even in the sea and a sure path even in the waters. So is Jesus innovating here? He's picking up on a thread that's been in Tanakh, that's been in his literature, contemporary literature that came before him anyway, while also still kind of doing a reshaping by making it so prominent in his teachings and the way that he relates to God. But what does that even mean? We hear it all the time. Right. It might be the title of vbs, like we're God's kids. Right. What does that mean to be sons, specifically, even of our Father in heaven? And I wanted to take the opportunity to review things that we've touched on and talked about before and line them all up of what it means to be children of our Father in heaven, what it means in this household context, this ancient Near Eastern context. And these hopefully are all familiar words by now, but patriarchal culture, a patrilocal culture, communal culture, and a patronage system based culture. So it's like a little Russian doll set. We're gonna all line up to think hopefully holistically about what it means to be God's kids or children of God or sons of our Father in heaven.

[Brent Billings]

Certainly a topic that we've been talking about since almost the beginning of the podcast, but potentially a while since we've considered the idea. So always good to review. As we say.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. One of the first Hebrew phrases we really kind of dove into and kind of used repeatedly the idea of. I'm assuming you could be referencing things like Beydav or Mishpochah or any of those things.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Absolutely. And we've continued to do so. But sometimes I think when we encounter the phrase children of God, we go, huh? Yep, got it. And we don't apply all of that historical and cultural wealth to that idea. It's just like a nice feel good term. So that's why then it would be worth the time to review and to set up, line them up all in a row.

[Marty Solomon]

One of the things that keeps coming to my mind is the Lord's Prayer. Like, seems to be a very well. And there's a book, there's a reason why I keep thinking about this. Crossan, John Dominic Crossan wrote, I believe it was called the Greatest Prayer. One of my. A great book. I think it's one of my favorite scholarly books in the Lord's Prayer. And he framed that whole prayer through the lens of household.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Nice.

[Marty Solomon]

Like God is the patriarch of this household. We're all a part of this household together. And framing it that Way like the world is like a household. It's like God's house that he's taking care of, he's providing for that. He's overseeing and stewarding and protecting. And that was a different way of seeing the cosmos, but I liked that. But he did that through the Lord's Prayer, obviously. Very next chapter. So.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, incredible. Can't wait. I'll look around, see if I can find a book. It sounds amazing. Okay. Working through this little litany here. Then we have patriarchal. We've talked about this, of course, before, but it's a different context than our modern context of what patriarchal means. Means, as you were just saying, it's a household headed by one patriarch. Patriarch is the legacy setter. He's the navigator, decides who are we, what are we about, what's our story, what are we doing in the world? The firstborn. Unless God subverts that, as he does in Tanakh, you know, frequently. Frequently Ye is in charge of carrying on that legacy more than all the others. I think Marty introduced that idea to me anyway, way back in the day when talking about revain, the story of Yosef getting sold away, right. Reuven is the one who's trying to walk out the family business, family, family values by saving Yosef. Jesus says that God is our father and God's the one who gets to set the mission in the story, our story, right? Where people of beloved priests bless and serve all nations, do the work of reconciliation, do that by dying to ourselves and finding ourselves resurrected, supernatural life of the spirit, right? So that's what we're doing, where we're going. And Jesus is the firstborn who shows us how to do it and does it first. All of this is familiar. I wanted to draw a little contrast though, because sometimes we get lost in the theological language and we're like, yeah, yeah, that sounds familiar. But we don't put it up next to our own culture and then go, oh, those different, right? So the North American family, like American dream situation. I was raised by my parents to be a functioning independent adult. That was the goal, right? I should be someone who doesn't need to ask anyone for anything. I need to figure out who I am by myself. They aren't going to tell me what job I should have or where I should go to university, who to marry, right? And if for some terrible reason I need to move back into the home after I'm 18, I'm probably going to pay rent, right? They want me to have my own place, do my own laundry, get my Own job, have my own home, et cetera. Patriarchal culture is not that. It's kind of the opposite of that. Which brings us to patrilocal number two. Patrilocal. We talk about beit of a lot. Josh talks about beit of a lot. House of the father. You marry into the family, you're adopted off the street, you're redeemed in the household. However that works. You're brought into the beit of the big tent. Right. Maybe the insula. So for us, primarily, it's a sense of home and worship context where we start and end each day at the feet of the patriarch. Our primary dwelling place is with him. Sometimes we have to go on mission to go shear the sheep, but then we come back. Whose house do we belong to? God's. Who stands with us? God. Where is our belonging with God? So in a temporal and local way, we're breaking fast, and we're telling stories around the fire each night with God.

[Marty Solomon]

Patriarlocal, would it be. My brain's trying to sift these into categories, and that's probably my Western brain hard at work. Am I on the right track if I think of patriarchal in terms of maybe the center of gravity of identity? Patriarlocal. Patrilocal being the center of gravity of belonging.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

Like that. Where I come. I like that I. That phrase of where I come back to. And the first one is like, I would go to school, I would make decisions because of my father, his name, what he's doing in the world, what his mission is. Because what I do is connected to what he does.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Precisely. Love it. Great.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

All right, number three, we've got communal. Sorry for all of us who are introverts and who love quarantine.

[Marty Solomon]

But next item. No, I'm just kidding.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But it's not just supposed to be us and Jesus alone all the time. There's moments where it is. But the picture throughout the text is always a house packed with God's kids. Right. Isaiah 6 talks about how the fringe of God's garment fills the whole temple. It's not just like, oh, what a cool big garment God has. He must be wealthy. But rather, the fringe of a garment, right. Is showing who's in the household. And so everyone in the temple is part of that household. And we see that in other places in the Bible where every tribe and every tongue and every nation is there. Right? So why does that matter? It means everyone present is in the mishvochah in the family. Each person might have a different role in the family. Different way of walking out. The family calling and mission, but lots of parts, one body. They're all here. It's a concept of insula Marty's taught on lots of times. Well, at least somewhere. At least somewhere I won't do Brent's job for. Sorry, Brent.

[Brent Billings]

Do you want me to link an episode? I can probably find something.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I mean, if it pleases your soul.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Marty Solomon]

And I feel like, again, to think Lord's Prayer. My brain doesn't do this because the prayer is our Father, not my Father. But my brain almost always says, my mouth says our Father. My brain always thinks my Father, me and my heavenly dad. It's me and my dad, hole in.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

The air, me and my dad skipping through the field.

[Marty Solomon]

And it's our Father because it's. We are a part of something, and he is. He's our father.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Absolutely right. Which even our prayer tradition, which is so low, runs, you know, against that versus everybody repeating something together. Yeah, but holding up our own culture against that. Or at least culture of the people on the zoom call against that. Right. How does that look in contrast? The, like, millennial TikTok dream is to homestead alone on, like, 50 acres. Right. That's the ideal. I've got my chickens and my goats and a cow, and that's all. And so maybe the super practical embodied shift is to make our dream pursuit of living closer with others rather than further away. But I think it's more than that, or at least added on to that, that it's group identity over individual identity, considering others more significant than ourselves, like Philippians calls us to. And what better way is there to die to yourself than when you're surrounded by the rest of the family of God?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, I liked your other points better than that one. That one was too convicting.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay. Repentance and kingdom of God is always at hand, Marty.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, that's true.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, finally, in our little review here, we've got patronage system I've recommended before and draw from and will continue to draw from. Misreading Jesus with Individualist Eyes by Richards and James. They do an incredible job of walking this whole thing out. But if we're a part of this household, we live there with everybody else. We're walking out this family, legacy, identity, mission calling, business, reputation. How do we do that? That's the patronage system part. So our patron, patriarch of our household gives us what we need to do the work again, different from our culture. It's not that he says we're shepherds here, and then we have to Go scour the hillsides for a wild sheep and then find another one and start our own animal husbandry setup. That would be a terrible patron. What we see, even with Yaakov and Lavan and Laban, is like, not the world's best guy, but he still gives Yaakov a whole bunch of sheep. And then Yaakov is the one who grows the flock. If Yaakov had to go out on his own and get a loan from someone in the next town over to be able to afford some sheep of his own, it'd be wildly out of place. It'd be offensive to Laban. Like, do you not think I'm able to help you out? Do you not believe the ties we have are binding? Do you think I'm an inhospitable scoundrel? So part of representing the patron, well, in the circles you move in, is that the patron gives you the things you need to complete the work he has given you to do. The kids, or the clients, as they talk about in the Greek patronage system, remembers everything the patron has done for them. And they recited and give thanks as they move through the world doing this mission equipped by the patron, not having to scrap together some solution of their own accord.

[Marty Solomon]

I like it. I think I see. I think I see where this is headed. My brain is working. I'm like, ah, we might be sons of our Father in heaven. This is changing things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is good. It's one of those phrases we just read over. Sons of your father in heaven, love your enemies so we can be sons of our Father in heaven. Come on, Al.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure. Yeah, duh. Obvious.

[Marty Solomon]

No, this is. These have. Yeah. These are far reaching implications of what that could be referring to. Totally.

[Brent Billings]

I don't think it's completely unheard of to have something like this happen, but it's just so looked down upon when you have like, oh, he's just working with his dad's money or whatever.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

In our culture, it's a total like.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

You don't want that Nepo baby. Do it on your own.

[Marty Solomon]

Right. Yeah. Completely backwards from what we value, our value system and our. What would be better as backwards from this? Absolutely.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Which even if you're in the upper echelons of wealth in our society, that's not the value. And that's why there are Nepo babies. It's like, no, of course we give opportunities to people who are part of our network and, oh, need some extra work. Like, come speak at my foundation. We have a gala. We need a speaker. Might as well, be you. It's more normal there. But anyway, back to the text here. One of the things that stands out to me if he's introducing this language of patriarchal, patrilocal, communal patroness system into his teaching in this particular place, is he's saying so that we may be sons of our Father in heaven, which almost implies, seems to imply that we may not be right. Which for us is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you saying? Or some people God's kids and some people aren't. And how does that work? And where is the line? I think those are totally worthy conversations to have and that it's not like a waste of time to have those theological conversations, but also with this history, cultural based lens on it illuminates that conversation to be like, if we think about the story of the prodigal son, for instance, we are the sons of our Father in heaven. When we are walking out that identity, that mission, that calling that story, the reputation in the world, because that's what it is to be a son, our family is loving enemies and serving those who hate us and forgiving those who oppress us and lowering the mountains and raising the valleys, that the glory of God might be known by all people. That's God's reputation. So if we're not walking that out, are we being his kids? And Jesus seems to allude to that, right? When he's teaching. He says, whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and my sister and my mother. We see that in rabbinical literature as well. Exodus Rabba says, though all are the work of my hands, I will prove myself father and molder only to him who does my will. And it's not like this cruel cutoff necessarily that we should be walking around being like, not everybody is getting it right. And so not everybody is the kingdom part of the children of God. It's just that back then being a member of the family meant doing the family business. And that's why you look different than the Gentiles and the tax collectors. Not that they're like pieces of garbage and that somebody needs to tell them that. But you're not representing the family well, you might be even bringing shame to the family and like the story of the prodigal son, right? If you're going and using the patronage, the wealth of your father to do wild things that are off, off of the mission statement. And some of us might feel allergic to that concept. If we were raised to think that we are better than everybody else in the world, is terrible. And it's going to burn up any day. Hearing, don't be like other can feel like the world is good. I want to be part of the world. But it's not that kind of theological context, in my opinion. In this cultural context, it's about putting the name of our patron patriarch on.

[Marty Solomon]

Display, not to just keep bringing up text to text. Here. It's what we do. I think of the parable of the two sons, the one son that says, I'll do it, but doesn't, and then the son that says, I won't, but ends up doing it. And on one level, like, my brain is wrestling, my heart is wrestling with that, like, line of like, oh, well, this means that you're in and you're. Let's. Beside the point of what's being said here. It's that calling of, what is it like? It's not that those two sons aren't both sons, but one of them is acting like it and one of them isn't. And so what good is it that you are the Son, but you are not engaging in the Father's work at all. You are bringing dishonor. You're not representing. You are. All of that. That parable helps me because our Western theology, like, we're always wanting to draw lines of like, so you're talking about heaven and hell, right? You're talking soteriology, you're talking. No, he's not talking about that. He's talking about what it means to be a son and the fact that you're not just de facto a son just because you claim to follow Jesus, you're a son. Because we are a part of the thing that. That Dad's doing, right?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And the Jewish conversation is well within that vein as well. They're not getting into eschatology or soteriology. Talmud Sotah puts it this way. They say, how is it possible to walk after Adonai? Is he not a consuming fire? Imitate the attributes of God. As God clothed the naked Adam and Eve, so you clothed the naked. As God visited the sick, Avrahammat Mamre, so you also visit the sick. As God comforted mourners, Yitzhak, after Avraham died, so also comfort mourners. As God buried the dead, God buried Mosheh, so you also bury the dead.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, that doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard before.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Totally foreign. Wow, interesting. What a new take. Last one here, Deuteronomy Rabba says that as God has told his people, when will you be called My children, when you fulfill the Commandments, it is like a king who told his son, if you want everyone to know that you are my son, clothe yourself in purple and put my crown upon your head. Then everyone will know that you are my son. But about the Commandments, there's a different relationship to commandments than we might be used to.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, that's great.

[Brent Billings]

The commandments being like the glory.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, yeah. What is a privilege and a joy and esteemable thing to do? Not like a legalism. Can get that if you want. It's really catty.

[Brent Billings]

No, that's exactly what I was getting at. Yeah. Not like an abstract, you know, set of rules over here. It's like something that I'm literally wearing. Like, you should see it when you see me.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right, right. And say something about your identity, where we come from and where we're going. Okay. The next thing that pops up for me when I look at this passage or this paragraph, anyway, 44 through 48, is this reward business. What reward have you. Reward? Oh, no, we're not supposed to even want rewards. Why is Jesus talking about reward? And I want to talk about this more next week because we have a, like, longer section on wages next week, and they're the same word in many places and similar words in others. But I want to wrap this idea of reward into the context of family, because that's where we're working from. And so sons don't get paid to be sons. What are you even talking about? Why is there. Why is there reward on the table? So briefly, not getting ahead of ourselves. There's the people in the patronage relationship. Clients, laborers, soldiers, kids. Right. They all get compensated. Sometimes we can forget that part. So you get adopted into the family. But it's not like the modern working here is like being family, which means usually uncompensated labor. It's the opposite. So you're generously compensated with resources that you need to do the work that you're given, but also often compensated with land and clothing and silver and connections and relationships. And why is that? It's because everyone knows who your patron is. It's part of who you are. I have God as my patron in the end. So what you had and to work with is a reflection of the character of your patron. So if you fought in a big campaign for years in Europe, thinking with a Roman context here, on behalf of your patron general, and then someone stops by your hovel, and you only have a cruise of oil and a handful of flour, they would say, like, what a wise and wonderful employer you have. They've clearly raised funds and reinvested them in the campaign. They would say, wow, your general is miserly and terrible. Don't they know to take care of their own? How is he comfortable making this kind of statement about himself? I'm not sure I'm going to contribute to his next campaign against the Celts or whoever they're fighting. So it's not about, like, prosperity gospel. I'm going to have all these things because God loves me and he doesn't love other people. And so I get a private jet and they get nothing. It's about God giving us what we need in order to accomplish the work that he's giving us to do. Partially because it's not about us. It's about him and it's about his character and what kind of patron and what kind of patriarch he has within the context of this cultural, historical system. It's not centered on me and how fabulous God, like, wants me to be and, like, wear designer clothing. That's not it. It's about who God is and what he's doing and what he looks like and making sure I have what I need to do the work that he's given me.

[Marty Solomon]

So whenever we talk about patronage, I just got done with this class last semester, and my professor is a scholar, obviously, and she has, like, her body of work is arguing against the prominence of patronage in the New Testament.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Ooh.

[Marty Solomon]

And she's arguing against heavily that it's not. The New Testament is typically not assuming patronage, but they're assuming democracy. The Greek. The ancient Greek form of democratic communal ideals. So, as you say this in my brain, I keep even reframing this. What would the reward be if it's not patronage? I'm just throwing this out here as another potential way of reading it. Like, what good does it do us, that communal us we were just talking about? Like, what good does it do us? Like, we're not gonna. We're not better if we don't do these things, if we don't love our enemies, if we don't welcome. Like, there's no democratic, communal reward either. Like, you know what I mean? Like, maybe I'm processing that incorrectly, but Elle's episodes always make me process on the podcast, which feels unbelievably dangerous to me, but I digress.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Oh, no.

[Brent Billings]

That's all I ever do, Marty. Just external processor all the way. That's how I stumble upon my greatness, is it just flows out of my mouth and I'm like, that was Interesting. Where'd that come from?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I stumble upon my folly that way as an external processor.

[Marty Solomon]

Me, too. I'm with them.

[Brent Billings]

No, no, you have to sift it later. There's plenty of folly along with it.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But I love the emails that I get. Do the sifting, then I pray about them. Yeah, that sounds really interesting. I would love to learn more about that. And I'm very curious about what she does with, like, the whole concept of Charis. Right. Because grace, or charis is a patronage word.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So I'd have to study and learn what she does with all of those passages.

[Marty Solomon]

I suppose that's probably an episode for another time. But whenever he kept talking about, I kept going, and what would. What would Dr. Miller say? And what would Dr. Miller say? And, what would Dr. Miller say? And that's what I was rolling around in my brain is. Even if I view this through a different lens.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

There's no reward for us there, either. There's no reward in a patient patronage system. There's no reward in a communal, democratic, whatever system like this does not work for us if we don't do this.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there is a reward in the patronage system. It's like if I were in Seattle and my work, whatever I was doing, caught the eye of the Gates Foundation. The difference between Western world, or at least my world, and the world of the Bible, as far as I know, and in the camp in which I hang out, would say, is that in our world, Melinda Gates or whomever, would give me money and compensate me for my labor and be like, thank you for doing photography at my gala. But in their world, it would be like, I love your photography. I want you to be part of my household, as well as paying you. So I will still pay you to do photography, but also, you're invited to Christmas and you're invited to Thanksgiving, and you're in my family portraits. But it's not that. Because Melinda Gates does that. She doesn't have to pay me. She still compensates me. Which the way I was brought up was to be like, reward bad. You should never want reward. Reward is for greedy people. You should just want to do it because it's the right thing to do, not because you want anything good that comes from it. But we'll talk more about that next week when you're not here, Marty, so.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, goodness. Well, I accidentally was stating it in the negative, and I think it threw you off because I was saying the exact same thing. You were like, there is a reward in the patriot system. Just like there is a reward in a democratic. And I hate that word because we're always. All of our listeners are going to think modern democracy, but like in an ancient democratic model, there's a reward. Your reward would be communal. Like there would be a reward in the patronage and there would be a reward in a democratic. I would say it in the negative, like Jesus is saying here, like, if you don't do this, what reward will there be? There won't be a reward. But you do this because there is going to be a reward. Like, you do this because there is a reward at hand. And whatever system we might be thinking about, there's a reason this works. You find shalom at the end of this tunnel.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Whether it's a patronage tunnel or a democratic tunnel or whatever. There's a.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

The other thing that's. Again, I need to learn more and read more. But the democratic system is not, in my mind, divorced from the patronage system. Because we read about all of these senators who were patrons, Right. That's like why we have art, right? Because, yeah, different people from the senator class were supporting artisans. So I, I just definitely learn more because I don't know where she's coming from, but that's okay.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, we split those hairs in class, too. It's a. Yeah, it's. It's not as far. They're not two radically different worlds. It's a process issue.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay. All right, well, I'll read some papers and be more enlightened by myself. Catch up with the rest of everyone.

[Marty Solomon]

I was supposed to get some in my inbox and I haven't yet, so I have to go digging as well.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, great. We've delied, we've dallied, we've explored Ella's learned. And yet here, here we come to the part where I am pretty sure we will be as one, which is hating on the words.

[Brent Billings]

Perfect.

[Marty Solomon]

Hate, hate, hate. Absolutely.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So it's good, good students here. What alarm bells go off in our heads when we hear the word perfection?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, as I've always said earlier, it's just a Greek concept.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That's right.

[Marty Solomon]

I just have like a 14 minute rant here, so I'm not going to go on it. But this is one of those places. Yeah, this is one of those places where I just know. Marty knows in my heart of hearts that Matthew has not written in Greek because this isn't. This would not be the word that would be used. Obviously, Jesus is quoting Leviticus, which is talking about holiness. We should have a Greek Word for holiness. So that's my. Okay, that's my sassy reduction. Like that's my reduced rant. There you go.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Incredible rant. I'll hop into that driver's seat, you can backseat drive for me and be like, yeah, great. Okay, so exactly. Greek concept, specifically Plato. Right? So if it's been a while since your Philosophy 101 course, there's the idea that there's a perfect or ideal tree or a perfect or ideal house or person or whatever out there. And God says our world, right, not on some other plane like in Platonic philosophy, but our world is good in all of its diversity and variety. And nuance versus Platonism says this world is full of perverted versions of what goodness actually is, which is revealed on this more transcendent plane. It's what the allegory of the cave is alluding to. Baase. Love and name Drop once said in passing to me that social media is just a Platonist paradise where every reel or clip or image is of someone cleaning their supposedly perfect house or eating of their perfect meal and we're like teleporting into this perfect transcendent Platonic ideal that doesn't actually exist. Right?

[Marty Solomon]

That's the most Josh boss comment I've ever heard relayed. That's fantastic.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I love it though. I think about it all the time. I'll be like, I'm not going to pick up my phone because that's bosses false Platonic theology. Yeah, yeah. But it doesn't just sneak into our phones. It also sneaks into our soteriology and our eschatology as well. And one of the ways this verse and ding ding, ding shows up in Genesis. Do you made the Leviticus poll, But Genesis, I think it's 15:1. Right. We sometimes have it translated. God says this to Abraham and so it gets weaponized. Right. God expects perfection of us.

[Marty Solomon]

Is that the walk before me and be blameless quote?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Uh huh. 17:1.

[Marty Solomon]

But I have the right verse though, right? Walk before me being blameless. Is that the word that's blameless?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yes, but it gets translated perfect. And lots of translations. I'm looking at the page with all the translations on it. Some people do blameless, some people say do. Right. But lots of people do perfect. Pretty much everyone coming out of the KJV tradition, which is how a lot of people do their translations, is just work with the KJV and they go perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. So one of the ways that this. First, because no one reads Leviticus, let's be honest, right? Let's be honest, dumb enough to try to translate the whole thing on a podcast translation project.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I'm so sorry.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So one of the ways this verse, and it's twin in Genesis 17 and then Leviticus as well, Genesis is, is that it gets weaponized into our systematic theology because it becomes this foundation. God wants us to follow the law and he demands perfection, right? And especially if you've never read the law before, because again, Leviticus, boo. That sounds impossible, right? If you actually read the law, then you're like, oh, don't withhold wages from people and don't commit incest. Got it. But back to systematic theology, it goes through this ladder, right? So God commands, demands perfection from us, though we are flawed creations. And so only Jesus can cover this gap in our righteousness. So to be clear, God does want us to live in integrity and uprightness, and we are flawed, and Jesus does cover the gaps in our righteousness. But that first foundational piece, right, that we're asked to be perfect, is taking this Platonic idea, which I believe is not present in either the Greek or the Hebrew, and injecting it into the foundational layer of our systematic theologies. So I want to talk about the words in the Greek and in the Hebrew. Okay? So our first. Our Greek. We're starting in the Greek. We've got teleios. And teleios. Ding, ding, ding means something has matured into its purpose. Teleos. It has matured into its purpose, at least for me. The reason I said ding, ding, ding ahead of actually saying anything is because that sounds. Feels awfully like the patriarchal patrilocal communal patronage system, right? God. Jesus, in this particular passage, is asking us, commanding us to mature into our purpose that has been set out for us by the head of our household, who is God. God has a purpose for each of us individually and corporately. And so why would God, why would Jesus and writing the sermon the Mount or speaking it or whatever, insert, by the way, be perfect into this conversation that I read as being about patronage and family, and he's about to keep talking about wages and things related to that. You just slide in. Btw, here's the expectation, unless he's talking about mature into your purpose as kids that are following the leadership of the patriarch.

[Marty Solomon]

God is that word used in the Septuagint. Does anybody know? Brent, can you check?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It is. In fact, it's. I mean, Brent can still check. That's fine with me. But it's sister word in Hebrew that I'm about to Unpack is Tamim. And when you check against the Septuagint, they translate each other. They use teleos to talk about Tamim.

[Marty Solomon]

Is that the word that's used in Genesis 17?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Genesis 17.

[Marty Solomon]

Because El's being as she looks. I will say Els being very generous to Matthew's Greek. I am not that generous in this verse. I'm just like. It wasn't written that way. That's the wrong wor. But chose the wrong word.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It is the word Tamim in Genesis 17.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, now, gosh dang it. All right. I gotta start being kinder. That could be clever. That's clever. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.

[Brent Billings]

Nine occurrences in the Old Testament in the Septuagint.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Thank you, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

See, I appreciate what El's doing here. I still have a bone to pick there. He's obviously quoting Leviticus. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is. Perfect. Perfect. That's the Leviticus quote. But, I mean, I appreciate your etymological connections you're making here. This is really good.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I have no problem with the Leviticus connection. I'm on your team here.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Am I gonna slap your hand off the steering wheel a little bit? Yes. But fully happy with Leviticus. Of course, Jesus would bring out Leviticus while he's.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

While he's doing the Sermon on the Mount. Right. He's doing interpretation of law. Of course, he's going to go to the heart of the thing, center of the chiasm.

[Marty Solomon]

But the Mathian text, the Matthew text here. This is good. Yeah, this is really good. The connection between telehassen and the Hebrew connection bolstered in the Septuagint, is fantastic. I love that.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Great. Okay. I want to talk about Tamim because it gives us even more insight. The word Tamim, as seen in Genesis 17, but also throughout Torah, means wholeness, not perfection, wholeness. And throughout most of Tanakh, it's used about sacrificial animals. So you can't bring sheep to sacrifice who's born without an eye to the priest and be like, well, I figured, might as well use a disabled one. That's not God's theology of disability. You have to bring the sheep who is whole, not missing a leg or anything else. The idea is not that you have to go find a sheep with the greatest moral purity and integrity, who's never said a cuss word ever, sacrifice it while saying, ah, yes, finally, a righteous, perfect sheep. You go and find the one who's Tamim, who's whole, totally different Ideas of what God's calling us to, whether it's this moral perfection, this kind of uprightness, which again, I do think God wants us to be upright, or wholeness. Rabbinic literature is so con. Would be so confused with what we've done with Tamim, with this idea of perfection. Because all of their conversation around Tamim is about bodily wholeness. So much so that it comes up the most when they're talking about circumcision and they're talking about, like, look, to make sure you're totally Tamim, you got to make sure you're circumcised. Because they're talking about wholeness of being. So they have this Genesis. Raba has this story. It says, the lady walks by the king and her face becomes discolored and she thinks, ah, this must have happened because there's something reprehensible about me. Wild but okay. And the king says, there's nothing reprehensible about you. Only the nail of your little finger is too large. Remove it and the fault is removed. And so therefore God said to Avraham or father, there's nothing reprehensible in you except this foreskin. Remove it and the fault is removed. So nothing to do with moral uprightness, righteousness, purity of behavior, speech, any of those things. So why does Jesus here tell us to be teleos, mature into your purpose and tame whole, Right? Whether you want to play more in the Hebraic world or in the Greek world. Whatever you want to do with Matthew, you don't. You don't have to be right like Marty and I are about Matthew being written in Hebrew. That's fine. That's a joke.

[Brent Billings]

You have to be. You do have to be.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Brent will show up. So why is it here? Why is it here? Right, so we can only do all of this stuff, all 25,000 words of this season that's in my notes. Only this far. That's not counting the rest of the season that's still to come. We can only love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, pursue purity, resist anger, chase that ministry of reconciliation, put our Heavenly Father on display. If we are doing so from wholeness, if we're harboring brokenness, bitterness, resentment, fear, self righteousness, lust, anger, all of that is just getting in the way of wholeness. Our Tamim, but also our teleios, right? Our family calling. We gotta go and see the shepherd for a little help, a little healing for a little. Sheep selves are not ready to be laid on the altar as a living Sacrifice, Right. And so that pursuing of wholeness, health, sanctification, all of that is commanded by Jesus. And it's not navel gazing to notice like, oh, I'm not well. I have a problem here. Whenever I think about this situation or this person, I get angry or feel despair or whatever. It's not like, stop focusing on the past and yourself. It's like, whoa, there's. There's something here that needs an adjustment. God wants. Wants wholeness for us. He wants maturity for us. And it's not like we can only pick one or the other. Run the race to which you're called, or find wholeness. They can be done together, but it's not selfish. Just stop. Take care of your body, your mind, spirit, heart, whatever, and then carry on running the race for which we're called. And Jesus finds it important enough to give us this commandment here to echo Leviticus, help us do the work better, because we're going to trip in the race if our parents are down so we can stop, we can pick him up and move forward with more wholeness.

[Marty Solomon]

And that's helpful because that's the missing piece. When I only see this passage missionally, it's just about what I can do. It's just about what I can do for God. It's not about what God's doing in me. It's not about my wholeness. It's not about. It's about the practical. Like, well, I got to do this. That the world sees Jesus. Like, I got to do. It's all about the mission. And the piece I'm missing is the piece that I was missing because I was arrogantly assuming and not learning any good lesson here. Really good. I love that point about wholeness.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I mean, I think your arrogant assumption is pretty true. So.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, we can just say we know that Jesus said it in Hebrew and quoted Leviticus, and then Matthew and his inspired authorship chose to make another point in addition to Jesus's point. And I'm good. I'm here for both of them. It's wonderful team.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Why not both?

[Brent Billings]

I do really like the idea of maturing into purpose. That is such a helpful way to look at that idea.

[Marty Solomon]

Agreed.

[Brent Billings]

And just. It feels so much more achievable, too. Like, perfect. It's like, well, I am a perfectionist. I want to be perfect, but I have problems with that all the time. It never actually works, but I feel like I could mature into a purpose. Yeah, like that. That sounds like something.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, it sounds like it has purpose. It sounds so Much better. Like, what is. What is the point of being perfect anyway? Like, okay, so then check done. Nothing else to do but maturing in purpose. It's like, oh, I have this ongoing work and I'm exactly where God wants me to be.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, it's invitational because this isn't even your final form.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, I would. Yeah, it's like missional. And because to rephrase it, it'd be missional internally and externally. It's not just external mission, it's internal mission. And that is beautiful. And I am going to totally steal final form. I love that.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

If I don't get to say something nerdy. I made a sports metaphor at the front, so we have to balance it out in the back. And the center of the chiasm is the actual teaching.

[Brent Billings]

Perfect.

[Marty Solomon]

There you go. I love that.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well, 13 episodes. We are done with Matthew 5. Now moving on to chapter 6.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Big day.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Come back, listen to Brent and I try to walk a tightrope of talking about reward and wages and not plunge into heresy.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Nice. Nice.

[Brent Billings]

You know, every once in a while you just need a good dip into the pool of heresy.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure. The little things.

[Marty Solomon]

The little things.

[Brent Billings]

Is the pool of heresy a hot tub? Is it a cold plunge?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

If I'm going to jump into the pool of heresy, I'd like it to be on something that. That's not like, could be misinterpreted as prosperity gospel or something. I'd like it to be. I'd like to be able to choose my heresy kitty pool to splash around in, but. Oh, well, what the text has for us.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well, everyone can find more details about our [e-mail] you can find the show notes. We'll have a few items in there for sure. Not exactly. I'll find a couple of things, but we'll. We'll get that list filled out. Lots of good resources. Always on an L episode for sure. So check that out in your podcast player or on the website. You can use the website to get in touch with us. You can find groups, you can find news and events and everything. It's all there, I promise you. We update it regularly, so check that out. And thanks for joining us on the Baymo podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Pause while I blow my nose. I apologize. Don't include that or I'll come for you.

[Brent Billings]

I would not.

[Marty Solomon]

Sounds like blooper real material for me. Don't include that or I'll come for you. Is definitely gotta make that.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Oh, good. Add to the brand for sure. The. The posture of humility I'm working on over here. Clearly, threats of violence really fits right in.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well, speaking of enem.