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- [00:00]
Josh Bosse
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Josh Bosse and Reed Dent to join Kohelet by the pond.
- [00:14]
Josh Bosse
Indeed. We're just chilling out today. We're just feeding some ducks. Ain't that right, fellas?
- [00:21]
Brent Billings
I heard you're not supposed to do that.
- [00:23]
Josh Bosse
That's true. You shouldn't actually do that. It's bad for the ducks.
- [00:26]
Reed Dent
I spent last weekend just sitting by the lake. Like there's my in laws have a fire pit out by their lake or out by the lake at their lake house. And I just can sit for untold hours. So the idea of just chilling out by the water and like seeing what comes by.
- [00:43]
Josh Bosse
There we go.
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Brent Billings
You're more prepped for this episode than anybody Read.
- [00:46]
Reed Dent
Even though I haven't really dug into the text at all, like I'm flying blind there. But spiritually, like, if we're talking about sitting by the waters and see what comes by, like, I'm with you, Josh. I'm just here to sit.
- [00:57]
Josh Bosse
I love it.
- [00:58]
Reed Dent
Sit by those waters.
- [00:59]
Josh Bosse
Well, as always, I'm going to open with a warning, but here's what I'm going to say about it. If you haven't been listening for the last 10 episodes, then you deserve what's coming to you. You know what this book is, you know what it's about. You all got to know Qohelet by now and how she runs things. It's the same old stuff. It's going to be a little funky treat and we're getting to some really, really. You know, I've never heard these words ascribed to Coilet, but honestly, some very kind of encouraging and inducing peacefulness kind of conclusions. It's really quite a beautiful chapter. I like it a lot. I hate calling things favorites, but this is a great little chapter here and I cannot wait to dig into it. So without further ado, it's a very short chapter. We only have 10 verses here, so we're just going to do three little chunks. Brent, will you open us up with our first three verses?
- [01:58]
Brent Billings
Ship your grain across the sea. After many days you may receive a return. Invest in seven ventures. Yes. In eight. You do not know what disaster may come upon the land. If clouds are full of water, they pour rain on the earth. Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there it will lie.
- [02:22]
Josh Bosse
Oh, man, there have been a lot of awful translation things, but that one, that one just hurt my tummy. Oh my gosh that was bad. That was really bad. Ship your grain. Oh, no, no, no. Okay.
- [02:35]
Brent Billings
There are three footnotes in that first line in the nat so sendered cash shellac.
- [02:41]
Reed Dent
That was net.
- [02:42]
Brent Billings
No, no, no. That was niv. That I read. But the net has three footnotes on that first line alone.
- [02:48]
Josh Bosse
All right, what's the net say?
- [02:49]
Brent Billings
Let's hear that we have shellac to send or to cast your grain.
- [02:58]
Josh Bosse
They're saying that's not bread for grain. Yeah, it's the word bread.
- [03:02]
Reed Dent
Right.
- [03:03]
Brent Billings
Okay. There are words for grain.
- [03:05]
Reed Dent
I took enough Hebrew to know that much, at least.
- [03:09]
Brent Billings
And then overseas, they're saying the literal translation would be upon the surface of the waters.
- [03:14]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. Yes. This is honestly, in my mind's, like.
- [03:17]
Brent Billings
Kind of a cast your bread on the surface of the waters. I see why you called it Kohele feeds the ducks.
- [03:23]
Josh Bosse
Exactly, exactly.
- [03:25]
Brent Billings
Although once again, we're not supposed to do that. I don't know why I'm defending the ducks.
- [03:31]
Reed Dent
Also just makes me think of soggy bread. And that's gross. That is gross.
- [03:36]
Josh Bosse
Right? And that's actually. Yeah. Let's start with that image. Like, what is this image? Cast your bread on the surface of the waters. And my translation says, for you will find it after many days.
- [03:52]
Brent Billings
Which that makes me understand why they translate it the way they do.
- [03:57]
Josh Bosse
Yes. Yes.
- [03:58]
Brent Billings
Because why in the world would you want that soggy bread?
- [04:01]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And also, like, I think after a day like that, that bread is not. Not one piece anymore. You're not finding it. It's.
- [04:11]
Brent Billings
Well, and also why, like, there are no ducks if you're finding it after a few days.
- [04:16]
Josh Bosse
Right, exactly. What is the purpose of throwing this bread out and then getting it back? Yeah, it. Like, I don't want it. And also, whatever purpose I had in sending it out like, that would kind of be undone if I just get it back. And now it's soggy. Like, what's the purpose of this? So I would just like to suggest that there's some symbolic imagery at play here.
- [04:40]
Reed Dent
This isn't duck feeding advice, literally. Okay.
- [04:43]
Josh Bosse
It's definitely not duck feeding advice. And I also don't think. I don't think it's about shipping and, like, shipping goods, and it's a good investment to send your grain overseas or something like that. Cast your bread on the surface of the waters, for you will find it after many days. I think what we're seeing here is Kohelet just getting real creative at this point. We are having some mixed imagery. The listeners, you there on your side of the headphones and us over here. Let's remember where we left off in the last episode with El teaching us all about patronage networks and this idea of using our resources to support the people around us, our community. And with that in mind, I think I even said it on that episode of, like, Because Elle took us some places I was not expecting to go. And once it was really clear, like, where the arc of the chapter was taking us, I'm like, oh, my gosh. This makes the beginning of the next chapter even more obvious, what it's talking about. We have this idea of casting bread. Just throwing your bread into the water, which seems kind of wasteful, right? You don't get to eat that bread anymore. It's going to be soggy. It's going to be gross. But if we think about giving away our resources to people, that's kind of what it's like, right? We're throwing it into the void. It's not ours anymore. We don't know what will happen to it.
- [06:15]
Reed Dent
That's exactly the next verse, right? Give.
- [06:17]
Josh Bosse
Yes, exactly. Divide your portion to 7 or even to 8. Again, doesn't really make sense if we're talking about business ventures, but if we're talking about giving your resources away, and then instead of even giving the normal wisdom, like, oh, do it three times, even four. Here we have do it seven, even eight. This is kind of big language from Kohele and also very exhortative, right? This is telling us to do something. It is not often like, other than Qohelet telling us, enjoy what you have. Enjoy what you have. Rest in that goodness. That's all you have. That has been the only advice she has given us this whole time. Now we're getting just out of the gate. Do this. Do this.
- [07:02]
Reed Dent
Yeah. And it's interesting because the impetus in the first verse is, well, Ultra translates it. In the long course of time, you will find may come back to you at some point. If we're talking about generosity, right?
- [07:17]
Brent Billings
Like, it is this like donating a toy to a thrift store, and then you go shopping and your kid finds their toy in the store.
- [07:25]
Josh Bosse
I mean, I guess that would be kind of weird. I see Kohelet, is that you stocking the shelves?
- [07:33]
Reed Dent
But in the second verse, it's like, you don't know if what evil will or how is it that the NIV rendered it?
- [07:41]
Brent Billings
You don't know what disaster may come upon the land.
- [07:43]
Reed Dent
What disaster? What disaster? What evil? And so there's almost like a neutral or slightly positive in the first sense of, like, send it out, scatter it. Maybe something good will happen, It'll come back to you. But then also maybe bad things will happen.
- [07:57]
Josh Bosse
Right.
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Reed Dent
And this is a reason. So speaking of just the things that you were alluding back to from the previous episode, if you distribute it, if you're generous with it, then there may come a time.
- [08:08]
Josh Bosse
Yes, exactly. For such a time as this. In some ways, this is restating some of the conclusions we made last time of, like, you need to support the people in your community with your resources. And, you know, you will see that return. Now, whether that's like, oh, you know, you gave some food to a family in need and they're part of your community, and then, you know, years down the road, that family's children are now adults, and they come and they bring you cookies, and in your head you're like, wow, I met these people by giving them food, and now here they are giving food back to me. Like, that, I think, is more the. The image that's being played with there. And I want to make that clear because I think what you're pointing to, Reid, is also really important. Like, there are bad things that are going to happen and we don't know what they are. Like, this has been such a running theme of Kohele. Like, you can't know. You can live a righteous life and be the wisest person, and you can still have the worst thing possible happen to you. So I think that in light of verse one, the kind of negative tinge in verse two of you don't know what evil is going to happen, we could take it as diversify your portfolio. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Give it away to lots of people, because the one person you invested everything in, you don't know where they're going. So why not just give it away to lots of people and don't try and concentrate it in one place? And I think that that is important to understand, again, in the context of community, because this is not about investment and return on investment. This is about may reality of, like, when you plant seeds, which is a image that we'll see later on here. When you give your material resources to your community, we all hope that that comes to something, right? Like, you give. You give food, you give money to support people, and you hope something will happen.
- [10:02]
Reed Dent
You know, Brent, I hate to keep bringing it back, but you know who this reminds me of?
- [10:06]
Josh Bosse
Oh, no.
- [10:07]
Reed Dent
Yeah.
- [10:07]
Brent Billings
You know, go ahead.
- [10:08]
Reed Dent
It's a Wonderful Life. It's George Bailey.
- [10:10]
Brent Billings
I was hoping it was going to be something else.
- [10:12]
Reed Dent
No, but in the sense that, like, it's not. He's not doing it because it's an investment, like you said, Josh. It's the idea of, like, well, if you are just generous to people, there's, like, an element of trust, even that, like, somewhere, maybe, that there is more of a generous spirit, like, out there than a more cynical or skeptical point of view might be willing to believe in. You know, like, scatter it widely. And, like, maybe not. Not as a paying you back, but just because, you know, people will. Will also be kind in turn or generous in turn if the evil falls upon you, if the disaster comes upon you. That's how I hear it.
- [10:51]
Brent Billings
You're changing a generation with that episode, Reid. I keep hearing from people who are like, I hate that movie. I wasn't gonna listen to the episode, but for some reason, I did anyway, and you won me over.
- [11:01]
Reed Dent
All eight people who have listened to that one.
- [11:03]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, man. I have to recuse myself of that.
- [11:07]
Brent Billings
Just one.
- [11:08]
Josh Bosse
All right, this cannot become movie chat, or we know that this episode will be three hours long. So that happens. Happens after the recording stops. Okay? So we have this image of generosity and Kohelet doubling down on this, even, like, getting kind of exponential with it, right? This seven, even eight. That's a big, big number. But like I said before, that's kind of like just following the thought process of Qohelet and what she's been talking about before this. There's still a lot of questions about these images. Like, when we think about these images, are there anything that comes to mind? And maybe specifically, if we look at this as composite imagery. So we have casting your bread on the. On the surface of the water. So we've kind of explained, like, what casting your bread means, Right? It's like giving away your resources. That makes sense. Couldn't she just have said, cast your bread on the ground, Cast your bread into the sky? Like, why the surface of the waters? And does that image allude to anything in your mind?
- [12:13]
Reed Dent
I mean, it's got to be creation, right? Creation story.
- [12:17]
Josh Bosse
Right? God's spirit hovering over the surface of the waters. Interesting. Now, you know, for those who have devoted themselves to actually listening through my Mishkan series, we might also remember that there is kind of even another layer in here between bread and surface, as in the bread of surfaces in the Mishkan. And so there might be a number of illusions we could pull out of that, but I'll leave that digging for the truly zealous. But yes. We have a creation image here. And then in verse two, if we're thinking creation images, what else might pop out to us?
- [12:56]
Brent Billings
Oh, the numbers.
- [12:58]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, we got a seven.
- [12:59]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [12:59]
Josh Bosse
Booyah. Or even to eight. Wow. This is Qohelet talking about creation, but also something that might even surpass creation. And let's remember here, in the kind of, I would say, the cosmic logic of Qohelet, where are we looking? Where is our lens focused? She's bounded it very tightly. I usually talk about this in the opening warning, which I refuse to do. This time, we're looking at everything under the sun, Right? Everything that's just on the human side of the business. By bringing in the seven, even eight, like, Qohelet is kind of letting herself, like, maybe even go beyond her own, like, comfort zone or the lens that she's been looking through, like, there is kind of a pulling away of the mask. I think, in this chapter, where we are now talking about something that might even exceed the created order. And that's a pretty powerful thing for Qohelet to even just insinuate that, I think is. Yeah, just really important to see. And, in fact, we're gonna have a lot of other. We really need to pay attention to the imagery throughout this chapter. But this is. Yeah, this is where it starts. We're talking about the power of generosity, but not just any generosity. Like, Elle laid it out really well. Like, we're talking about patronage networks. This is something that's, like, quasi familial. This is a huge part of the fabric of society in the context in which this was written. And on top of that, this isn't just generosity in any old sense, but specifically extending patronage. This idea that's built into the Hebrew word for grace, which, again, that should probably mean something to us, but it's this idea of being like, yeah, I'll take care of you. I'll support you. When I think of patronage networks, the first thing that came to my mind was, you know, old systems of, like, how artists made their living, where there was a rich patron who would say, like, yeah, I'll pay all your bills. You just make that great art. And, you know, that'll. That'll be how we do things. Because, you know, on your own, you know, making these paintings that take a bunch of nice materials and a lot of time, and then, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to sell it to someone, and that takes time. Like, how are you actually going to make money? You're kind of caught in this lurch, I'll just take care of you. That is the image we have here. And Kohelet is creating this image of just throwing it and also throwing it in ways that might seem to be fruitless. Take care of the people in your community. Even if it just seems like all you'll have at the end of it is soggy bread, still do that. And not just do that, do that times seven or even eight. This is like kind of a big explosive, like. Like, I just really feel like Qohelet is desperately trying to move us right now.
- [16:01]
Reed Dent
That makes sense. And it. What strikes me is the other. Some of the other images and the first few verses that Brent read, and then these actually go on to the next section, too. But, you know, the clouds, if they fill, they'll empty out rain on the earth, which is a truism, right? Like, of course, that's what happens if a tree falls. There it lies, you know, and it seems like there is this recognition of. There's an inevitability of things. Things happen, basically, and maybe even evil things or disastrous things happen.
- [16:30]
Josh Bosse
Right.
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Reed Dent
This is just the way. And you can't do anything about that. There's a real cause and effect. You know, cloud fills up, it rains. Of course, you know, the tree is felled, there it lies. But Kohelet seems to say that in response to the inevitability of things and the uncontrollable nature of that inevitability, what you ought to do is lean into. I mean, I love the. The sending out or the scattering. And it's almost like a haphazardness, you know, like. Yeah, wherever it's going to end up, lying. Like, I'm running a little bit of Jesus and the. The story of the sower, right? He's just kind of throwing it. And maybe it's here and maybe it's there. And give to seven, even to eight. And so the. The. The word is lean into that kind of almost frivolous, like, generosity rather than. Because, you know, there is very commonly, it's well known, like the. The opposite reaction to bad things could happen. Nature takes an uncontrollable course, and it just. It doesn't really care about what your experience is. And so you've gotta, like, turn inward and you've got to make sure that you are. You know, it's like the idea of, like, the prepper, you know, where it's like, have your underground vault stocked with everything that you and your family could need for a thousand years. And Kohelet's like, yeah, you know, you don't know. Just scatter it and maybe it'll come back to you. Like, yeah, bad things are gonna happen. Go ahead and just, like, you know, it's like the patronage practice. The patronage, like, just. Just go for that.
- [17:56]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking when I was looking at this. That's perfect. And I. Yeah, I think that is so important, especially in our culture and in our, like, especially when it comes to money and resources and the way we've turned this idea of stewardship into kind of almost like an excuse to have that. Like, well, we just always got to play it safe. We can't ever, especially institutionally, we can't be generous in ways that might not be worth it or something like that. It is something that. Because you don't know what could happen, use up that money. It's not going to do you any good when you're. When you're dead. Like, right? And you don't know, maybe. Maybe you have a son and you're like, this is gonna be my heir. I'm gonna give him the finest education and the best meals and, you know, everything, everything, everything. And then, you know, one day a horse steps on him. Okay, like, that's just like you said, with the cloud giving rain and the tree falling, it's like, yep, there it is. Like, that just happened. And because that's real, just spread it around everywhere. You truly don't know what will happen. And what I love about verse three, kind of like what you were saying, Reid, like, verse one is very positive, right? Like, just, hey, be generous. And then it's like, be generous because bad things could happen. And I love that as, like, an argument for being more generous. Again, very countercultural to us, especially with our desire to, like, our fetishization of knowing the future and what will happen, what's next in the markets, or, you know, this or that. And just this statement in verse three, like, yeah, if the cloud's got water, it's gonna fall. It's gonna go somewhere, and that's just where it's gonna land, right? The rain falls on the just and the unjust. It says elsewhere and the same thing. A tree could fall this way or this way, but whichever way it falls, that's the way it fell. There is an inevitability, and there is a limit to how much we can negotiate what happens. I think that's really what it comes down to. There is a hard limit on what we can do to negotiate with life. And if we insist on being in control, then we are going to be leaning in further and further to the fruitlessness, the havel, the mere breath of it all. And this way that Kohelet is pointing out is the opposite of that. It's surrender. It's saying, okay, I don't know what will happen. So I want to make sure that everyone gets a little bit. Because who knows, maybe a plague comes through and wipes us all out. Except for that one person in the corner that no one really paid attention to, and he had average grades and he wasn't anything special and yada, yada, yada, like, but then that person becomes the most important person. Like, you just don't know. So just give it to everyone. Why not?
- [20:42]
Reed Dent
Yeah. So again, this is not. Maybe one of them will strike it rich and they'll become a millionaire and they'll be able to scratch your back. So, you know, invest, diversify your portfolio. Because it's not. It's not that.
- [20:55]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, and this is also. This is kind of the logic, too, with like. Like having children at that time, Right? Like, you know, having a child was dangerous in terms of, like, the actual birthing process. A lot of women died giving birth, but that did not make people say, okay, so just have your one kid and then be done. It was like, have a big family. Because all sorts of things can happen. Like, you don't know, so have more. And that obviously, this is not me saying that. This is talking about having lots of children. But in the same way that people back then didn't look at that math and say, okay, therefore, we should have as few children as possible. They knew. No, this is something that we need to do to continue on and to grow and to prosper. And I think that sometimes we lose that in our. In our world where we often have so much apparent control and choice and whatnot. But setting that aside, the one thing I want to note is that there is kind of an emotional arc here where we have something very positive. Then we have this mention of evil occurring on the earth. And then in verse three, these images of rain pouring out on the earth and a tree falling down. What are those images? Right. Like you said, these are truisms. And when it comes to truisms, you could. You could say this a bajillion different ways, right? You're like, oh, the apple. Wherever the apple falls, that's where it fell. Like, you could say this a hundred different ways. Why these images? Do they bring anything to mind?
- [22:23]
Reed Dent
First of all, I mean, the cloud I see it in your notes here. But I also thought this. As the Israelites were journeying in the Exodus, you know, the cloud would come to rest and it would cover them and then it would lift up and then they would move.
- [22:36]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And in fact, this specific word for cloud is used to talk about God's presence. But the first thing I'm thinking of, especially thinking about evil happening on the earth, is the flood. Right. And the word for rain here is the word that's used for the floodwaters coming from the sky. And again, similarly with the tree falling, this one took a little bit more time to find. But in Ezekiel 31, it uses the image of a tree falling to talk about Assyria's downfall, as the prophet warns the pharaoh of being careful not to be too arrogant in his own right, lest he see the same fate of the Assyrians. So these can both be seen as images of judgment. And that I think is, you know, it follows from verse two really well, like something bad might happen. So make sure as many people as possible have a little bit of the stuff, a little bit of the bread, a little make sure you're taking care of everyone. But I also wonder if there are supposed to be like kind of two levels to it. Certainly the rabbinic conversation actually sees this as a very positive verse. When they talk about the tree falling north or south, they see that image as of like where a righteous person decides to settle down and not being about like some giant tree toppling over, but of like, yeah, just like, you know, wherever there's some cool righteous person, whatever community he's going to be a part of, you know, is going to be great. You know, wherever she settles down and starts teaching, people are going to learn and grow in their relationship with God. And so just wherever that person happens to be, there's going to be a blessing there. Not because that place is special, just that's where they settle down. And in the same way, spread out your resources that way. And as you were pointing out, Brent, that image of the cloud, that specific word for cloud is specifically used to talk about the cloud covering over God's presence. When it talks about the clouds being full there, it's like, I wonder if there is also a sense of it being God's presence. Again, like, there is a kind of double sidedness to these images. And I don't know for certain that that was intentional, but I wonder, and to me it makes sense that this can work both ways. Like that kind of, I don't want to say duality, but I Guess that fits here. Like, the duality of, like, you don't know what you're going to get. It could go really good. It could also go really bad. Could be because you deserved it or not. Like, that fits in with Qohelet's kind of understanding of the world, I think, rather well. But anyway, other thoughts on this.
- [25:13]
Brent Billings
I did not deserve the attribution for the cloud statement. That was Reid. But I will make a comment about the trees. For some reason, Instagram likes to show me videos of people falling trees. And I don't really know why, because it's not that interesting to me. But the way it goes, some of the videos are like some guy who's like, they got this huge tree and there's a house right here, and there's a fence right here, here, and this, all this stuff. And they just, like, they drop it in the perfect spot. And then other times it's like they got this big, wide open field, but then a house on one side and like, they could drop it almost anywhere and it would be fine. And it goes exactly where they don't want it to go, right through the middle of the house. And so there is that sort of sense of like, okay, well, once it's down, it's down. Like, you can't really change where it fell.
- [26:01]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [26:01]
Brent Billings
But is this verse talking about that sort of intentionality? Because you're talking about a wise person settling somewhere. Like, is there intentionality to where they're settling? Or are they just kind of like, is it more a sense of, like, wandering around and then they find a spot that kind of feels right and they just settle there? And it's like, well, now we're settled. Like, how much intentionality is. Is there to this tree falling?
- [26:24]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. This is again, based on rabbinic commentary, specifically Rashi. And this is looking at both the rain. This is. This is what I was saying of like, you know, you could see the connections between this and judgment. But the rabbi, specifically Rashi here interprets this in a positive way. You know, clouds giving rain. That is generally a positive thing. And this word for rain is also, like. It's used sometimes to talk about the normal rains. It doesn't have to be like some heavy rain of judgment or anything. But specifically on the phrase, if a tree falls, they're talking about it in the same way of, like, chance. Like, a tree is falling. I mean, in this case, it doesn't even talk about intentionally. This would just be a big old tree that's dead now, and it's Falling over, and who knows where it's going to land? You know, the same way where, like, you know, a righteous person who's moving into the area or whatnot, like, who knows why they are being forced to travel and relocate.
- [27:22]
Brent Billings
Okay. From an outsider's perspective, you don't know where that person's going to end up.
- [27:27]
Josh Bosse
Exactly. And the benefit is going to fall there because that's where it fell. The same as, you know, where the rain falls. That's. That's where the water is. You can't negotiate with that. You can't wiggle that around at all. It is what it is. And that's where we kind of get back to this tautology.
- [27:43]
Reed Dent
So I'm thinking about other images of people as trees that you were alluding to. You've got the oaks of righteousness thing, which I think is in Isaiah, and then there's the Psalms thing about the one who meditates on the law of the Lord. Right. Is like a. Is like a tree planted by a stream.
- [28:03]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [28:04]
Reed Dent
In those cases, there is this sense of, like, God plants this tree like this. This is how it's supposed to be. And I almost hear here. And again, the haphazardness of, like, the tree could fall anyway. And it's almost like a. With the rabbinic conversation, you're bringing in this reassurance that is in line with the first few verses we've already talked about. I think that's like, it's not for nothing. Like, if you are planted as an oak of righteousness or. And then you fall. Right. If there is something happens and the tree suddenly is on its side instead of standing upright. And you might want to say, well, this isn't how it's supposed to be.
- [28:43]
Josh Bosse
Right, right, right.
- [28:44]
Reed Dent
I hear Kohelet saying. But, yeah, like, in the rabbinic conversation surrounding it that you're bringing up is like, yeah, the tree could fall, but wherever it falls, there it is. Like, yeah, you're still there.
- [28:54]
Josh Bosse
You.
- [28:54]
Reed Dent
You as an oak of righteousness or as a tree that has been planted and grown by wisdom and meditating on the law of the Lord. Like, if you are those things, even if the tree falls, it's not for nothing. You know what I'm saying?
- [29:05]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And this is where, again, I feel like in this chapter, particularly, like, Qohelet is very loose with her imagery. Right. Like, I think we see the same thing with the casting the bread on the waters, where it's like, okay, we have the casting the bread, and then we have the creation image. And it's a little messier. And I mean, you know, Qohelet is not one to be super traditional in any means. She doesn't fit in well with wisdom literature. And here again, we see these kind of even looser, kind of slapped together images. And I think it feels like it accompanies this loosening in her own heart, maybe, as we're talking about these things. And so genuinely, I think the nuance in these images is, if anything, probably to expand it to be talking about both. Both negative outcomes and positive outcomes. Like, you could end up investing in the kid who turns into the President of the United States, and now you've got the presidency here, and you never even knew that would happen. Or it could just as easily be like I talked about before the evil plague sweeps through your village and the one kid that gets kicked by a horse. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You don't know what's gonna happen. It could be good, it could be bad. You could have the next Abraham Joshua Heschel move in downstairs from you. Of a sudden, your life is totally turned around in the best way possible. You just can't know. And so, again, going back to it, though, the point Kohelet is making is that in either case, obviously, if good things happen, awesome party on generosity flowing. But even when we have bad things happen, the tree falls through the middle of the house. You still have to live in that reality, and that posture of generosity still makes sense. And this isn't a. Like, you need to keep giving even when you don't got any money left in the bank and the widow and the two coins. And you just, you know, you show God how much you love him by how much you give. This is about, like, actually supporting your community with what you actually have. And that is also a reciprocal process. If you are no longer in a position where, say, you have a house, then, you know, that's a point where it turns around and you need to ask your community for help. And by golly, I think if you are a person who's been generous, that'll also be a much easier ask. But also you'll have a community that itself was more supported, and there will be more to go around, both on the kind of cynically practical level, but also in a spiritual level. It just plain makes sense. And I want us to be clear here, because this is the argument Kohelet is making. Like, just be generous, whatever you have. Like she's been saying since the beginning, like, appreciate it. But in terms of what to make of your life, this is how you are supposed to steward these resources, giving them away freely to support your community in ways that matter. That's not an easy thing to define, you know, and here we're slipping into our western mode of trying to define it and figure out exactly what we're supposed to do with this. But I think that the general principle paints itself pretty well here. Okay, verse four through six, we got some new images popping out.
- [32:20]
Brent Billings
Whoever watches the wind will not plant. Whoever looks at the clouds will not reap. As you do not know the path of the wind or how the body is formed in a mother's womb. So you cannot understand the work of God, the maker of all things. Sow your seed in the morning and at evening, let your hands not be idle, for you do not know which will succeed, whether this or that or whether both will do equally well.
- [32:45]
Josh Bosse
So a new set of images, and we kind of have ourselves jumping around between, you know, these agrarian farmer images at the beginning and end, and in the middle, we have this image of a pregnant woman, but they kind of share the theme of, you know, fertility, for lack of a less weird word. And. Well, first of all, impressions. Anything jumping out? Any. Any, like, you know, what. What is Kohela doing with these images? Anything. Any questions?
- [33:18]
Reed Dent
I mean, this sounds a lot like the episode that I did with you.
- [33:23]
Josh Bosse
I know, right?
- [33:23]
Reed Dent
Earlier in chapter three.
- [33:25]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Reed Dent
Where the verse is like, you know, we talked for quite a long time about what does it mean, that sense of putting eternity into, you know, the hearts of men, but they cannot fathom. But it has fixed it so that we cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. I mean, that sounds. This is not a word for word copy of that, but it. It sounds very close.
- [33:46]
Josh Bosse
Yes. And I love that you zoomed in on that, because I think the opening image is really perfect for that. Right. We have this guy who's a farmer, and he's paying attention to the weather, right? Oh, where's the wind blowing? Are those clouds going to bring rain? And if you're a farmer, again, kind of going back to chapter three, Right. There's a time to plant and a time to harvest, and there are seasons for those things. You don't do your planting based on omens or anything that has to do with something. Weather that changes day to day to day, it's like, nope, this is the time of year to plant. Maybe, you know, if it's a drought, you're like, okay, let's wait till we get our first rain or something like that. Like, I don't know, maybe those concerns are there. But if you're a farmer, you're working seasonally, you're not looking at day to day weather changes necessarily.
- [34:34]
Reed Dent
Right.
- [34:34]
Josh Bosse
And the other interesting thing with that is the word there for watching the wind is that word chomer, the watchman word. So this is not just like looking. This is like, you know, your job is to pay attention to the weather. Like someone who farms exclusively based on what the weather looks like any particular day. Like that's just. This is kind of a silly image. Like you're never actually going to be farming if you are that in the weeds or in the clouds, so to speak of, you know, all these shifting, ever changing variables day to day to day. You just gotta work with the rhythms of nature and you know, let the, let the plants grow, how they will harvest what there is to harvest. That's how that works. And, and again, kind of this disorientation from those rhythms and times being drawn in parallel here, as you pointed out to the unfathomability of what God is actually up to and that it is something beyond our ability to see. Right. Like it is in this case. It is the way that. And there's a lot of different ways of translating it, but I really like alters. He talks about the. What is it with this? As, you know, not the path of the life breath into the limbs within the full womb. So you do not know the deeds of God. Like it's something that is happening inside your partner's belly and you literally can't see it the same way, you know, you can't literally see the wind. This I think is again going back to that theme of the unfathomability. But we are still, we have to do something with this thing. We can't quite predict and master and control.
- [36:16]
Reed Dent
Just looking at the. What alter translates there as life breath.
- [36:23]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [36:24]
Reed Dent
Is that ruach? Is that Ruach?
- [36:26]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [36:26]
Reed Dent
Okay. Which is probably the same for the verse before.
- [36:29]
Josh Bosse
Whoever watches the ruach, indeed, whoever guards the ruach. This is such a like anti Kohelet image, right? Oh, you know, you're shepherding the wind. This dude is trying to stand on a wall and you know, guard the wind. This is the ultimate fool.
- [36:44]
Reed Dent
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean it's the. Again, the plain advice seems to be like, don't obsess over things that you can't know or control. Like, sure, sitting there trying to watch the. The wind is like trying to watch the. The spirit being put into the. The womb of a woman who is with child. Like, you don't know what that is. You can't see that. And to the extent that it. It precludes you from actually doing the work you mentioned earlier, Josh, it's. It's that idea that we. We want to control and know the few. It's a kind of divination. Right. Like, we want to be able to know what will happen in the future.
- [37:26]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [37:26]
Reed Dent
And it's like divination is like the anti. Faith. It's the antitrust.
- [37:30]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [37:30]
Reed Dent
You know, where dudes, I don't want to have to plant today and just trusting that the weather will be favorable for a good harvest in the fall.
- [37:39]
Josh Bosse
Right.
- [37:40]
Reed Dent
I want to know for sure. And if it's not gonna be good, well, I guess it kind of begs the question, well, then what will you do? Like, so you're just not gonna plant at all? You know, like.
- [37:49]
Josh Bosse
Exactly. And this is the perfect. Like, this is. This guy's trying to figure out like the. The weird. The life hack for, you know, whatever. And it's just like, no, there is no like. And this, I think goes back to like, this is a huge. Or at least in the context of this very small chapter, this huge chunk of it, one third of it, it is layering these images of fertility where you have to trust in the thing that is the source of life. As a farmer, you should not be looking up, you should be looking down at your soil. Is it good soil? Have you tilled it? How's that looking? Are there a bunch of weeds in it? Those might be things you consider. But regarding when you do it, now it's the time to sow. So go out and sow. And this is where the circling back in verse six to that farming images of just sow your seed more. Sow it in the morning, sow it in the evening. You don't know if maybe one is better than the other. Who knows? Maybe they're both the same. Just sow more. And I love that you brought this back to chapter three, because that was where we talked extensively about how those questions, specifically about life and death and making life and dealing with conflict and mourning your loss, how do you do that in the context of exile, which again is the context of Qohelet. And it's so crazy to me that now we're here and Qohelet's like, yeah, just keep pushing for new life, you know, just like, keep sowing. And this reminds me of. I think this was in chapter nine where there is a remez to Daniel talking About, you know, let your clothes always be white. And that being an image of the ancient of days returning and judging all the empires. And Khelid is, is basically saying like, hey, it's like living in Egypt and saying like, hey, you know, you gotta be ready to live as someone who's not a slave. Like, you have to be able to look ahead towards something different. I would say even just to like, keep your sanity about you, but to like, keep a part of yourself ready for a new creation, a new life for God to do something new. Not in this, like, you know, the secret kind of way where it's like, oh, you won't get anything good unless you make room in your life. Like, it is not God, is not a withholding God. It is not that. It is simply that we're talking here about all these things we can't control, we can't see, we can't negotiate with at all. They're just facts of life. You don't know. And you can't control whether a single seed will sprout or not. And so that's why farmers throw out tons of seeds. They're not just like, all right, this will be the most perfect stock of wheat in the whole world. It's like, no, you have no idea if any individual stock of wheat is going to grow up from this particular seed. You just, just throw as many as you can and hope some stick. And that is the model Qohelet is putting out there for our generosity. And in the middle of this, evoking the image of pregnancy, which one thing I want to note here is that alters translation nailed it dead on. The word there, it doesn't say a pregnant woman, it says a full womb, which that word full was just used in verse three. For the clouds that are full, right? And they have rain. This again, life giving force. And it's going to pour out somewhere and you can't control where it lands, the same as you can't control what your kid's going to be like or how that's going to go. And so I think that this image of just as we can't control the disasters in life, so too we can't control the blessings and where they take us, how they change us. And I mean, I can speak from experience. I felt God's blessing in a lot of ways in my life. And then when I met my wife or when I met Marty or these things, my life took a turn. And it wasn't one that I chose. It was something that needed to happen to Stay connected to my community or to pursue something beautiful that God had given me. And it changed me in ways that I did not agree to or even at times necessarily want for myself. But at the same time, those are blessings and they're good. And I think, again, this comes up against. It really rubs us the wrong way for our modern individualism, where it's like your life doesn't fully belong to you. And we talk about this a lot when it comes to you and God, but even you and all the people around you, like, if you live in a completely selfish, individualistic way like that, kind of like the image of Haman, you don't have anyone to live in. Community is to be, to some degree in a state of surrender and willingness to just go along with whatever happens next. That I think is where this exhortation of Qohelet is really beautiful and hopeful and also doesn't. I think this is really important for me personally. At least it doesn't look down on or despise our humanity. This isn't blaming us for our failures or anything like that. It's just saying, hey, yeah, you're freaked out about this. Don't overthink it. Don't get sucked into some podcast about the secret handshakes that will make you a millionaire. Just don't worry about that stuff. Those people are trying to scam you or whatever, certainly wasting your time. Just get out there and try. Throw your bread around. Throw the seed around. And again, this image of tossing seed, this image of fertility is again going back to the beginning. What are we casting around? I mean, you even said it back then when we were talking about casting the bread around, like, oh, like a farmer throwing seeds. That's still the image we're talking about spreading around our resources. What a beautiful image.
- [43:39]
Brent Billings
When I was first. First reading through this part, I was thinking about how, like, oh, we actually know a lot more about how a body is formed in the womb, and yet we still don't know. Like, we still can't actually predict it just as much. The weather. Like, there's so much technology, we have so many tools, we have so much more data. I think a lot of it is just like, just a collection of data and being able to communicate that to a larger population around the world. And it's just we have better numbers that we can put into averages, right? And the averages are helpful in predicting sometimes, but there's still, like, the meteorologist spends all day and that's part of it too. Like, you don't hear a Meteorologist, like, okay, I gotta sign off the broadcast now and get out to the field to start planting. Like, no, there's no time for that. Yeah, like, this is a full time job job and it doesn't matter. Like, no matter how much they work at it, we still don't know the path of the wind. Exactly. We have ideas, we can kind of predict it a little bit, we can look at trends over the last few years, but any given year, any given season, any given day, we can't actually know or control it. In spite of all of the advancements we have since this was written, like, it's still so true today.
- [44:59]
Josh Bosse
Even when we get down to like, you know, and oh my goodness, I, I always hesitate bringing up quantum mechanics on a podcast, that feels like the most dumb thing imaginable. But on the quantum level, we know mathematically we can't know exactly what the position of this electron is without losing all the other data about it. If we want to know where it is, then we don't know which direction it's moving. If we want to know which direction things are moving, then we don't know exactly where it is. And to me, that kind of of has a perfect Kohelet esque. We know a lot more. But in knowing a lot more, we realize there is a hard limit at some point to how much we can predict and know what is coming around the corner. And sometimes that means we're right or we're close to right. The weather predictions are probably better now than they've been before. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that on any given day, it can't be the exact opposite of what you were told, you know, and maybe that's a really important day. Maybe that's the day you planned your wedding and now it's, you know, pouring rain and now, now the water is being cast upon your bread. You know, there you go flipping it around.
- [46:08]
Brent Billings
Forget shepherding the wind, shepherding the cubit.
- [46:15]
Josh Bosse
Yes, exactly. And yeah, like, in the face of all this futility to just say, like, yeah, just, just be open handed with what you have, like, spread it around intentionally, get it out there, because you don't. Again, this, this image of fertility, or really like, when we talk about fertility, we're talking about life, right? Like, fundamentally, these are images of, you don't know how life works, how new life comes into being. And again, with all this Genesis 1, specifically day one imagery, which we could even look at this maybe and see some other days in the. I was trying to do this earlier, seeing if there was any way this could match up with Genesis 1. And I don't know, maybe there is, but you'll see soon that kind of gets thrown off. But anyway, we have all this creation imagery and at the same time being told, but you don't know how any of it works, so do your part, right? Throw the bread around that you have. Give that to your community. It will do something. Like you were saying earlier, Reid, it's not for nothing even if the tree falls down. You know, it's really funny, is in the Ezekiel 31 passage, when it talks about the tree of Assyria falling down, it talks about how animals will still make nests in and on it, just like they used to do when it was standing. Life still goes on. It is still, even in that vision of judgment. It's not that it's unuseful anymore. It's simply an image of this prideful thing being brought low. And similarly, I think about a job character where maybe, maybe you're a righteous person and something bad happens to you that you don't deserve. Even in that state. You could say, oh, I could have written. I could have written the most important treatise on what it means to follow Jesus ever. Oh, all this wisdom lost forever because this person died young or whatever. Something happened and they had to give up their work. So many people that could have been great artists but weren't. And it's not that there isn't any tragedy to that. But first of all, what they did end up doing still matters. And what they did without having done their great work, it still matters. And the thing that we're all searching for, to use Qohelet's Hebrew terminology, the Yitron, the something more to life that is out there, irrespective of any one of us individuals. And I think that that's what this is pointing toward. That, that overflowing of life, that process in and of itself is just beyond us. And if we can accept that and still be willing to participate in this unguaranteed exchange where we're just supporting other people, not looking for anything in return necessarily, just supporting each other in a mutual communal network, you know, whatever that looks like for you, like, that is how life is formed. We don't actually get to know the steps or have any control over it, because it's in everyone's hands, not just any one person. And ultimately it's in God's hands. We gotta let it go.
- [49:18]
Reed Dent
It's like, to me, that is. That is humbling. And it's Reassuring at the same time as the one who. Myself, you know, there's the part of me that's like, I'm the artist that wants to put the thing out there, you know, I remember my one. You know, Derek, my best friend here, here. When his father in law died, he was a preacher, a deaf preacher, actually. But he had bound volumes, hardbound volumes of all of his sermons from preaching every Sunday for 30 years. And when after he passed, there was some time went by, and then Derek, you know, had a. Had a fire in his backyard and he just burned all of these volumes of his sermons. And I was like. Like there was a part of me at the time that was like, oh my gosh, I'm dying inside. Because is somebody going to do that with my stuff someday? Like, what's going to happen, you know, if my things don't last? What's going to happen if I. If I don't even get the chance to like, put the thing out there into the world that I think needs to happen? You know? But now as I get a little older and also just in. In light of this wisdom from Kohelet and all the things that you're saying, Josh, there's like a release that's like, it's okay. Okay. What did you expect it to be in the first place? You know, and maybe. Maybe your initial expectation for what your contribution, I guess just the way in which it will matter. Because it's not that it doesn't matter, but maybe we. We miss est. We. We misestimate. That's not the word. What's.
- [50:46]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's the exact. You don't know whether it's over or under, but you've. You've. Yeah, you're. You're off. Yeah, I. I love that. I love the way you said it. That. That's. Yeah, that's perfect. And. And I think also within that, like, one of the things I love about Qohelet is the way that it makes us aware of the layers to which we don't know it. And that's why I felt like misestimate was the best thing, because it could just be, man, your dreams for yourself were way too selfish because you actually had so much more potential that if we flipped on God vision, it's like, oh, you actually ended up George Bailey style, connecting to all these things because you didn't go exploring the world. Oh, man, I promise I wouldn't. I promised myself I wouldn't get into it. But yeah, yeah, he did something. What? He did mattered, even though he didn't, you know, get to do his dream. And there is something, you know, kind of existentially sad about that, but at the same time, like, I think it's also interesting the way Qohelet talks about this. Not in terms of, like, well, God decided that was how your storyline was going to end, but more just like, again, in terms of just, hey, a tree falls down. One squirrel in the forest was like, oh, if it had just gone one more degree that way, then I would have had a sweet little setup here and there and there. And it's like, yeah, well, it fell this way. And, you know, we can just live with that and move on. All right, Brent, go ahead and read us out here.
- [52:20]
Brent Billings
Light is sweet and it pleases the eyes to see the sun. However many years anyone may live, let them enjoy them all, all. But let them remember the days of darkness, for there will be many. Everything to come is meaningless. You who are young, be happy while you are young and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see. But know that for all these things, God will bring you into judgment. So then banish anxiety from your heart, heart and cast off the troubles of your body. For youth and vigor are meaningless.
- [53:00]
Josh Bosse
Man. Well, that last verse, I have a couple things to say on it, translation wise, but we'll get there by the end.
- [53:05]
Brent Billings
We did get cast off. I don't know if that's the same word as verse one.
- [53:10]
Josh Bosse
Let's see. No, it is not the word for, oh, to cross over, to pass over, to put away. Very interesting. What? Well, let's just start with obvious verse seven here, where we started, we have light. Oh, boy. The Genesis 1 imagery just does not stop. I forget exactly how your translation put it, Brent. It wasn't bad by any means, that the light is pleasant and it is good for the eyes to look at the sun. Now this, to me, like, there's so many things here that stick out. Like I just said, we have the creation imagery. And not only that, like, there's kind of. Of. Even if you weren't paying attention and didn't see the creation imagery before, there's like a line here that is almost an echo exactly, of Genesis 1 where it says that God saw that the light was good. And here we have seeing and light, and it's good. Like, we have all those ingredients there. Like, it feels so just like, right, right on the surface. Like, this is supposed to be such a. An obvious image, but I feel like underneath that, there's another thing, which is that is the invocation of the sun. Right. Like, the sun is not. I mean, it doesn't literally happen in day one. That's day four, of course. But the connection of this seeing the light and that being pleasant. This whole book has been talking about all the weariness and trouble bubble under the sun. Right. And that phrase, under the sun, after reading this book for a while, has kind of become like, oh, yeah, where everything sucks under the sun, where it's hard and it's hot. And boy, oh, boy, do you just want to get off this crazy ride. And now to have it be like, it's nice to just look at the light. Like, oh, man, what a beautiful turn of image. Especially because, you know, the word joy is used coming up here quite a few times. A lot of times in Qohelet, the phrasing that's used for joy is to see joy or to see goodness in your days. And there is something just so serene in this, like, just being able to gaze on the light, being able to see the sun. Like, there is this kind of inherent wonder, being vested into life in this moment that feels so, like, not discordant. I wouldn't say this feels like. Oh, is a different person writing this. Like, this feels like Qohelet, but this feels like a side of Kohelet we have not seen yet until this moment. Right. Like, there is something so peaceful about this. Thoughts from you two?
- [56:00]
Brent Billings
I mean, I like the sweetness of the light.
- [56:04]
Josh Bosse
Oh, yeah, that's right. I knew they used an interesting word. I had to look that word up.
- [56:09]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I. It's matoke.
- [56:12]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [56:13]
Brent Billings
Often used to refer to honey, apparently. And so, like, we're talking about clouds and the idea of the people being led through the wilderness to the promised land. Eventually we have the planting and. And reaping of things, presumably something that they would be doing a lot of once they got to the Promised Land. So I feel like we have some. Some Promised Land themes going on here.
- [56:39]
Josh Bosse
Oh, yeah. And not only that, the first time the root for that word matoh is used is when they throw the. The tree into the bitter waters and the waters become sweet. That's one of the things. It's all. It always translates that verse as they threw in a stick or a branch. But the word there is literally just eight the word for tree. So now I'm even thinking if, like.
- [57:04]
Brent Billings
I love the image of Moses hitting a whole tree.
- [57:08]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. Him hoisting a whole tree up and splashing it in the water. But that also then makes me go back to that image of the tree falling and like, you know, making the water sweet. Like there's, man, there's so many layers to this. Maybe the images here are not as haphazard. Like, that was the other thing that struck me as like, oh man, we had Genesis 1, literally 1 1. You know, we have, you know, the surface of the waters in verse one. And then here we have light. Like, is there some really just crazy chiasm in here? Maybe. But you know, I am not here to unveil, to shine a light on every single mystery of Qohelet. I'm just trying to chill out with Qohelet here and feed the duck or not feed the ducks. Let's pretend that you're allowed to feed the ducks. But again, you know, this is Kohele, because we can't have a nice moment that is too cloyingly sweet, right? It's always. It's that dark chocolate, it's got some bitter in there. However long you live, I hope every year you can find joy. But also remember that there will be days of darkness and they will be many. And that last line in verse eight, everything that is to come will be mere breath. Death. That can again sound like pretty downcast, pretty hopeless. But we've been with Qohelet long enough. We know that the remembrance of the darkness, that is not just some exercise in self flagellation, that is also part of how we orient ourselves and know what is worth moving toward, what is worth casting our bread toward and not just blowing it all on some dumb entrepreneurial idea. And so I think the awareness that, yeah, the thing you're building that might just get knocked over by a little gust of wind, but that's okay. If you're just living with that open hand, then a lot of these problems, it's not that they don't exist or they don't affect us, but just they, they can't have the same sway over us because we're not trying to hold onto something that we're not supposed to hold onto. And again, like, this is the idea of Qohelet, of living in anticipation of a post exilic experience of something that is beyond the cycles of exile and that there is something possible, whether it's going to be you and yours that attains like that. Who can say? Who can say? And if you are so hung up on that idea that you can't throw a handful of seed because you want to make sure that it's you and the people you like who get to have it. Then it's just like, you're missing the point. Like, we're moving toward it or we are able to. If you're going to try and approach that existential question with, like, conditions and things, like, you're not going to get very far. Are we have here at the end kind of a little fitting. I don't know what to call it. Like, verse nine and ten are kind of like, we go from third person to second person, right? We go from like, oh, if some guy lives a while, let him rejoice. Then in verse nine, we have, hey, rejoice. You. You do this. You live in this way. You follow the way of your heart and the things your eyes glance at. Like, this is again, like, much more exhortative and specific instruction. And simultaneously, it's kind of like its own little miniature, not quite poem, but maybe like slightly poetic prose on youth. And what Qohelet is saying is the best thing to do when you're young. And what do we think about this advice here?
- [61:07]
Brent Billings
We have that line, but know that for all these things, God will bring you into judgment. So it's like, don't do what I'm telling you to do carelessly, right? Put some thought into it. But if your heart is leading you in a particular direction, if your eyes see a particular opportunity, don't be afraid to engage in that. Just because, I mean, this goes back to the earlier part.
- [61:34]
Josh Bosse
Like.
- [61:34]
Brent Billings
Like, be generous in lots of different places. Because you don't know what's gonna happen. Follow the opportunities that are presented to you. Cause you don't know what's gonna happen.
- [61:42]
Josh Bosse
Ooh. And you know what? This. This actually goes back around fully and kind of in our slight commentary on It's a Wonderful Life here. I think this verse kind of bites back against George in a little way in that it's like, you know what, it was your responsibility for choosing what to do just because you narrativized it. Being about your obligation, that's still what you chose to do. And it's not your wife's fault or Zuzu's fault or anything. You don't have to be yelling at all these people because of what you chose to do, because you felt obligated. Like, you gotta own your choice. And this, I feel like, is really powerful advice because especially having grown up in the church and having been given all sorts of advice about how to live life when it came to the really big, weighty questions, most of those pieces of advice that had to do with being a person of integrity and this and that which not knock yet. Those are good things. I'm glad I, or at least I did my best to embody those things. I don't think I get to be the one to say whether I have been successful at that or not. But there was good advice. There came to actually knowing what to do. And you have that deer in the headlights moment of like, oh, do I swing for the fences here or do I bunt and do the safe thing? There is no one who can really tell you what to do in that moment. And that's why I think this verse right here is so powerful of like, hey, yeah, if your heart thinks this is the best way to go, do it. Absolutely, you are going to be judged for these things. And we should note here that this is the word mishpat. This is not deen. This is not saying you'll be judged as in, you'll be judged harshly or with any other thing. Just there will be a setting things right. Mishpah being this word for more discerning and straining out difficult and complicated matters. At the end of the day, it will be clear what kind of person you are and what mark you've left on the world. You can. You can't hide that. You can't get away with a crime forever. Even if you personally do and never personally see consequences for it, it'll come out in the wash. It's one of those things where it's like, yeah, live fully. But like you said, Brent, not carelessly, not forgetting the other 10 chapters of the book we've been reading. If you've just been tuning out and now you hear this permission to do whatever you want, you're like, oh, that's what I'm going to do. It's like, oh, all right, fine. You're still allowed to live foolishly. Or God lets people live evilly too. That is quite obvious. So that justice, though, it's interesting Qohelet's relationship with this judgment because she does seem pretty set on this idea that it doesn't come about in some clockwork way. But that's her looking at all of society and all of the outcomes and just how things work practically as, like, you know, advice to an individual person and saying like, yeah, you know, follow your heart, but also realize that actions have consequences. Right? Like, that's kind of the gist of it here. And I really like this image here at the end of, like, throwing these things away, removing. What was the word Your translation used Brent at the beginning of verse 10.
- [65:12]
Brent Billings
Banish anxiety from your heart.
- [65:14]
Josh Bosse
Banish anxiety. Ooh, I like banish there. That's a nice. It's a nice word. I think el would probably take issue with it because of the Hebrew, because it's that word chaser, which means to lack or to be missing. But, yeah, anxiety is not a totally bad word. The word there is, which can mean sadness, grief, but also anger. The root idea is something that is provocative. So a lot of times it's associated with frustration. But I think anxiety is a great mirror for that. This thing that just, you know, sticks like a splinter in your brain. Like, hey, just. Just pull that out. Whatever is getting you to be overthinking this or stressing out, like, just remove that. Get that out of your heart. And the next line is even better. Take evil from your flesh, which. Oh, man, oh, man. Again, we have to remember evil. We're talking about destruction. We're talking about. I think a lot of translations go with pain Here, here. It is crazy that, like, reading a book that is so, in many ways profound and has taken so many circuitous courses to get here. A lot of this advice can feel very, very plain, but with the entire experience in mind, saying, like, hey, don't keep frustration in the center of your heart, in the center of your mind. Don't. Don't let pain and destruction be something that you keep around your flesh, your very body. Treasure those things genuinely. Your peace of mind, I won't say your physical comfort, because that means a lot of different things these days. But just don't hurt yourself. Don't undermine the very source of your own life. Like, just keep those priorities properly ordered. I remember when I was young and I was having trouble finding a job, you know, shortly after 08, and, you know, you're working someplace and you're trying to, like, prove your worth. And it was, you know, very easily could have thrown my back out or done a bunch of stuff to mess up my body just to impress someone who was not even paying attention. You know what I mean? And I feel like there is a sense there of, like, wise perspective on youth tells you to more than anything else. Like, don't get caught up in overthinking and regret and those sorts of things. Just make your decisions, know that there will be consequences. Don't hurt yourself. Don't be dumb. Just everything that comes, you have to hold it with an open hand and you'll be okay.
- [68:00]
Reed Dent
It sounds like the advice of an old person, right? And that's not to. I'm trying to uphold that, not criticize it. But you. You know, old people's advice to young people is sometimes painfully simple.
- [68:15]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And.
- [68:17]
Reed Dent
Well, what about this and what about that? You know, and you almost hear shades of, like, earlier bits of Kohelet where she's. She's like, full in angst mode. Yeah. But it doesn't always work like this, and it doesn't always work like this.
- [68:29]
Josh Bosse
That.
- [68:30]
Reed Dent
And I just see this journey in the course of this book where you. You go through all of that, but ultimately, like, this, this kind of advice, the bad advice that's born of, like, naivete and the, like, sage wisdom that is actually born of real experience. Those can sound very similar.
- [68:52]
Josh Bosse
Right? Yeah.
- [68:53]
Reed Dent
On the surface, you know, but to be able to say, yeah, these things as plainly and, you know, on the heels of the other 10 chap chapters. But I don't know. I mean, I haven't said anything for a few minutes. I've been. This whole passage has me, like, very emotional. Like, I feel it deep in my. I'm not an old man, but I'm not a young man anymore either. You know, I'm approaching my middle age and I hear the voice of someone who. Who is, like, lived a life and who is trying to help the people coming after them not live with a sense of, like, regret or even, like, with a sense of meaninglessness, you know, like.
- [69:34]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [69:35]
Reed Dent
Which. That's, like the stereotypical image of Kohelet. Right. Is the beginning. Everything is meaningless. Everything is meaningless is the way that it sometimes gets translated. But for me, it's. It's that. It's. It's verse eight talking about, rejoice in the years that you have, but also recall. And that. That verse, Herb, recall the days of darkness when you tell the story of your life. I don't know. We just. We had a family reunion a couple weeks ago with my family, and we don't all get together very often, and my brother had taken the time ahead of the family reunion to go through family photo albums going all the way back to 1974 when my parents got married. And that was 10 years before I was born, you know, and we just looked through these pictures, all of us sitting in the living room together. You know, it's T.S. eliot's like, there's a Time for an Evening by the Lamp Light with the photograph album and, like, to recall both the days of good and the days of darkness. Not so you can, like. I don't know. Not so you can, like, be Real, you know, like, and just be like, cool and real. But, like. Because there is something about the perspective looking back, back, like the whole thing is what your life is. And if there is an exhortation in here of like, you don't know the deeds of God, who was doing everything from beginning to end, but there is a sense in this whole passage that is like a call to trust in God anyway by living in this generous, wholehearted kind of way. And again, this. It's a younger man's game to try to parse out, like, how predestination works and does God do bad things? And all these kinds of philosophical arguments that we get into. But just to say, like, recall the days of darkness too, because this is all a part of like, what your life is. And I don't know, it's. It's hard for me to like, put it into words, but it hits me deep as we're just hearing these words. Yeah, I don't know.
- [71:40]
Josh Bosse
I'm glad you brought it back to this. On a literary level, I think this is really. We've been talking about creating. We think about, you know, day one, and everyone loves like, oh, let there be light. Oh, and there's light. Oh, how cool is that? But it's like, okay, well, what about before that? Like, that was also. That was part of the same day. And even just, you know, reconsidering verse eight, you know, it says, remember the days of darkness, for they will be many. Which I don't think Qohelet is saying to undermine the rejoicing. She's just, just told us to be consistent in. But rather, I think what you said was really perfect. That is part of your life. Don't dishonor that part of your life. There is kind of almost a self betrayal. I mean, we see this all the time, right? It makes me sick to my stomach. You go on social media and you see people who are trying to make their life like, oh, it's everything. Everything is all just good, all this time. And we all know that. And it doesn't even taste good, right? It's not actually that great. It's really only good if you are telling yourself while you're consuming, like, this is good, this is good, this is good. If you actually just taste it, at some point, you get sick of it. And I think we can even do that with our own lives when we are again obsessed with trying to figure out the future. Which another way of putting that is, I always want to do the right thing thing, which can only be Determined if you know how things turn out. Because things can go an infinite number of ways if we're so focused on the future and how our life will go and doing the right thing. And in doing so, we filter out every bad decision we've ever made. Or we say, oh, that was the old me, or that those are diminishments of our life because it's all part of our story, and we should treasure all of that. That is not what actually undermines our journey. Joy. The whole story can still be wrapped up in joy, even with all the days of darkness. The same way that day one in the creation of light can sit side by side with those dark waters beneath. Those aren't the things that you should pluck out of yourself. It is the frustration, the little needle in your brain that keeps provoking you to be angry or to be upset. That's the thing Colette says. Yeah, get that out of there. Don't have that anxiety and that angst and that frustration right in the center of your heart. Don't keep pain close to you like it's a part of your body. Like, get that out. Like, you don't have a lot of this time, this childhood, this adolescence, this young adulthood. Like, it's all gonna pass away rather quickly. And that isn't to scare anyone or freak them out, but kind of what I'm hearing from you, Reid, and also what I feel is that there is just such a deep passion and reverence for the life that God gives us that is beating behind this. Like. No, like, love all of it. You know, the same way we would exhort you to love your partner. Like, love all of them. Don't just be like, well, I like this part of you, honey, but that part, I hate it. Gross. Get away from me. No, that's not. That's not how we do love to other people. There is. I'm really glad I had to you on this episode, because I knew we were going to get someplace profound and emotional. And unless you have something to say, Brent, we've got a fun little way to close this thing out. You got any thoughts for us? Any three pointers you want to put up at the last second?
- [75:23]
Brent Billings
Well, I don't know about a three pointer, but, yeah, just to echo the ideas of this is emotional. It's also kind of encouraging, I guess. Yeah, in a weird way. Like, in a way that makes me feel, like, almost uncomfortable. But it's like, okay, if. If you heard me, like, saying everything's, you know, silly and not worth anything, like, okay. But also take the time to enjoy it. I don't know.
- [75:49]
Josh Bosse
It's. Yeah.
- [75:51]
Brent Billings
Mixed emotions at this point, I guess. But yeah, I, I don't have anything.
- [75:54]
Reed Dent
Just being happy and positive all the time sucks. Like, that is not actually a way to like live your life.
- [75:59]
Brent Billings
Your life. Right.
- [76:00]
Reed Dent
That's not real. That's not. There's no contrast, there's no depth. There's. You know what I mean? Like, it's all, it's all just flat and vaguely pleasurable, I guess. But it's not, it's not good. And I think, what I think Kohelet would say is like real goodness actually involves light and darkness. It involves both of these days of, days of joy and merriment and also days of darkness. Like recall it all.
- [76:26]
Josh Bosse
All.
- [76:27]
Reed Dent
Because at the end, like when you look back at the life that God has created and calls good, it's going to involve all of those things.
- [76:34]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [76:35]
Reed Dent
And so put away from your flesh like this, this worry that is like wishing it should have been otherwise, you know, and beings and being so resentful about what days of darkness have happened to you. And I'm not saying that like we, we should. This is not like the. Thank you, sir. May I have another? Like, this is not self flagellation. This is not that. That's not what I'm saying. So don't hear what I'm not beyond saying.
- [76:56]
Josh Bosse
Right. We're not, we're not telling the children to stop complaining. Oh, just stop complaining. Like, no, there's.
- [77:02]
Reed Dent
No, no, not, no, this is not that. This is not that. But it is to say, and I think this is just the wisdom of experience and what those of us who, and it's not a knock to not have experience. You just haven't lived the life for it yet. You know, and I really, I'm just talking to my angsty 22 year old self right now. But that like what, what God is creating in your whole life, life. And there is a deep mystery and we should not try to flatten it out as to like what causes suffering and pain and how that interacts or intersects with what the will of God is like. I have stopped commenting on those things because we're talking about something that is too, too deep for me to know or too mysterious. And yet, like, if what I want to lean into is that claim of faith that says like God is creating something that is good and has created something that is good and when all is said and done, it will be said to have been good, then it's Going to involve all of it. Yeah, that's it.
- [78:01]
Josh Bosse
Absolutely.
- [78:02]
Reed Dent
Don't try to make faith about some chucklehead version of Christianity where we're just, like, all blessed and happy. Go lucky all the time. It's not that. That's not real.
- [78:14]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, absolutely. And, man. Yeah, the more I read this book, the more I'm like, man, this is so bema. This is so Holy Spirit and Jesus, like, wow, this is going to be.
- [78:26]
Reed Dent
Isn't that amazing?
- [78:27]
Josh Bosse
Speaking of the Holy Spirit, though, mid episode, Reid had some sort of connection, like lightning somewhere in his brain.
- [78:37]
Reed Dent
Yeah, it just connected for me. This poem by Rainer Maria Rilke from the Book of Hours, and it's called Go to the Limits of youf Longing. I think about this poem pretty regularly. I wrote a sermon based around this poem one time. Time. So it feels appropriate to the spirit of Qohelet here in the 11th chapter. I was hoping that, Brent, you could do the reading.
- [79:00]
Brent Billings
God speaks to each of us as he makes us, then walks with us silently out of the night. These are the words we dimly hear. You sent out beyond your recall. Go to the limits of your longing. Embody me. Flare up like a flame and make big shadows. I can move in. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror, just keep going. No feeling is final. Don't let yourself lose me. Nearby is the country they call life. You will know it by its seriousness. Give me your hand. That does sound like a reed sermon.
- [79:45]
Reed Dent
I'll take that as a compliment.
- [79:47]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, honestly, you should. Reading this after you brought it up. I couldn't even put into words some of the connections there I can see, and some of them run much deeper than I can see. And, yeah, there's a lot of awe here in Kohelet, and I'm glad we got to begin unearthing it and feel the way it moves us. And I hope you out there listening also feel that and that this, well, hopefully it sets you free.
- [80:22]
Brent Billings
All right. We leave our listeners in awe, whatever that awe takes them to. If it has anything to do with our podcast, you can find that@baymontastypeship.com but maybe not. I feel like there's a lot of options here, so, you know, whatever you need to do but get in touch with somebody, spend some time alone. Lots of ways to engage these thoughts, these emotions, these words. So thank you for joining us this week on the Baymon podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.