474: The Chosen S5E4 — “The Same Coin” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

The BEMA Podcast

Episode 474: The Chosen S5E4 — “The Same Coin” (Bonus Episode)

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Marty Solomon
Co-Host: Brent Billings

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode continues the BEMA team’s discussion and analysis of Season 5, Episode 4 of The Chosen, titled “The Same Coin.” The central focus is on how The Chosen represents pivotal moments from the Gospels in the days leading up to Jesus’s arrest, especially through its nuanced portrayal of the Last Supper, Judas’s growing tension, the Sanhedrin’s machinations, and the vital–often overlooked–role of women in the story. The hosts explore biblical and historical context, storytelling choices, and how these dramatizations impact the audience’s perception of scripture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Narrative Structure and Theatrical Experience

• Timestamps: 00:20–01:26
  • Brent reflects on how watching episodes in grouped theatrical releases affected his understanding of the Passover scenes’ sequencing in The Chosen.

    “Sometimes I pay attention to the little details and miss the whole forest.” – Brent (01:15)

  • Marty describes the editing choices as “fitting,” showing flexibility in historical accuracy when it serves the drama or thematic flow.

2. The Passover Table & Jewish Traditions

• Timestamps: 01:26–04:37
  • Dayenu and Haroset Depictions: Marty notes that elements like Dayenu and haroset may not be strictly historical for the 2nd Temple period but appreciates the way The Chosen incorporates them to evoke the spirit of Passover.

    “There’s so little we know for sure ... this fits right here. It flows.” – Marty (01:44)

  • They compare The Chosen’s adaptive use of modern and ancient Jewish symbols and prayers.

3. Portrayal of the Betrayal: Judas at the Table

• Timestamps: 04:37–07:38
  • The episode dramatizes John 13, with Jesus’s whispered warning to John and the symbolic act of handing bread to Judas.
  • The slow, suspenseful depiction is praised for its realism and relational subtlety.

    “They put together those details in a way that I could definitely see, I could relate to. It’s not ridiculous.” – Marty (04:58)

  • The show chooses to mute Jesus’s words to John for dramatic effect.
  • Discussion on symbolic foods: haroset vs. moror (horseradish), with Marty noting how the choice affects the visual presentation.

4. Judas’s Motivations & Interactions

• Timestamps: 08:57–14:15
  • Judas’s complaints about the system (taxes, Rome) and Peter’s significant confrontation:

    Peter to Judas:
    “You believe he could make swords magically appear in the hands of all those people. And yet from that same mouth, you question his every move. Why can't that faith ... also allow you to trust that he knows what he's doing?” – (13:24)

  • The hosts highlight Judas’s desire for political unification through force and how Peter’s maturity as a character shows here.

    “He is definitely growing, which is going to make ... his denial of Jesus that much harder to watch because of how he’s going to feel.” – Marty (14:15)

5. Sanhedrin Dynamics, Plotting Against Jesus

• Timestamps: 15:00–26:14
  • Caiaphas and others discuss political strategies to undermine Jesus, revealing layers of complexity within the priesthood and their power plays.
  • Praises the show for incorporating intra-Pharisaic and Sadducean tensions and for not oversimplifying opposing groups into “good guy” and “bad guy” camps.

    “They've kind of wrapped it all together and they've done it really well ... you kind of see corruption with Caiaphas and you assume that it's ... elsewhere in the family.” – Marty (16:38)

  • The emotional, almost irrational way the Sanhedrin votes to kill Lazarus is noted.

    “A very emotional vote by the time they got there ... Shmuel’s just kind of like, lost his mind.” – Marty (23:41)

6. Layered Literary & Theological References

• Timestamps: 18:12–21:53
  • Jesus and John discuss a fresco, bridging Greek myths (Agamemnon) and Hebrew stories.

    “We are all doing things from our own flawed perspective.” – John (20:28)

  • The conversation echoes John 15 and themes of abiding, forgiveness, and approaching persecution.

    “Things will change. But I'm going to forgive you. You don't have to worry about forgiving yourself. I'm not going to leave you or forsake you.” – Jesus to John (19:03)

7. Judas’s Critical Choice

• Timestamps: 26:24–28:52
  • Pivotal moment as Judas confronts Jesus, pressing him to take power, while Jesus challenges Judas:

    “Who do you belong to? It was me at one time, but it might not [be now]. You got to figure that out.” – Jesus to Judas (27:21) “All Israel is gathered, ready to crown you king ... this deal is on a knife's edge.” – Judas (27:37)

  • Marty notes Judas’s “evil eye”—his self-preservation and narrow vision blinding him to Jesus’s real intentions.

8. Portrayal of Women & the Seder

• Timestamps: 32:37–38:34
  • Deep, moving Seder scene with the women, depicting their emotional intelligence, understanding, and faithfulness.

    “This scene for me shows a room of women that not only intellectually understand, emotionally understand, are pastorally present ... This scene was some of the most ... well done as a work of honoring the women in this story.” – Marty (36:36)

  • The hosts discuss how The Chosen navigates both historically patriarchal realities and the narrative tendency in the Gospels for women to “get it” more than the male disciples.
  • The use of the word “apostles” (38:04) is examined—intended for the men, but the camera and context invite reflection on the women’s role as well.

9. The Cursing of the Fig Tree

• Timestamps: 29:37–31:40
  • The cursing of the fig tree scene is explored; the show leaves room for layered meaning (personal, national).

    “You really feel like everything’s unraveling ... they’re tired, they’re confused, they’re angry, they’re sad, they’re a mess.” – Marty (30:00)

  • Marty and Brent discuss differences in Gospel accounts and the episode’s placement of the incident.

10. Character Growth and Emotional Nuance

• Throughout
  • Repeatedly, the hosts highlight how The Chosen has developed Peter’s character with increasing maturity, setting up future conflict (“his denial ... that much harder to watch”), and contrasts the emotional realism in the men’s and women’s gatherings during these tense moments.

11. Notable Quotes and Reflections

• Marty:

  “What would be my Dayenu if I wrote it? Which room would I be in?” (37:36–37:44)

• John:

  “We are all doing things from our own flawed perspective.” (20:28)

• Jesus (to John):

  “Things will change. But I’m going to forgive you. You don’t have to worry about forgiving yourself. I’m not going to leave you or forsake you.” (19:03)

• Peter (to Judas):

  “You keep wanting to use Jesus for all the things he could do ... You actually don't want to listen and follow what he says as a leader and a shepherd.” (13:37)

• On the Seder with women:

  "For me, you separate the woman. And they did not have to do this scene ... yet this scene was some of the most ... well done as a work of honoring the women in this story, historically in the text. I love that they had their own Dayenu prepared. Oh, good golly, goodness gracious." – Marty (35:46–37:36)

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Memorable Moments & Meta-Analysis

• John’s Look (04:55): The priceless facial reaction from John during the supper after Jesus identifies the betrayer.
• Emotional Vote (23:41): Sanhedrin scene showing emotional irrationality, with slow, telling body language.
• Women’s Dayenu (32:37–37:44): Emotional high point of the episode, seen as an honoring and centering of women’s discipleship and theological insight.
• Attention to Detail: Chosen credited for not pulling interpretive “punches,” making bold narrative choices relevant to modern life.
• Meta-Questions: The hosts pose questions for self-reflection scene, such as “Which room would I be in?” (37:44), promoting deeper personal engagement with the biblical story.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Season structure & theater experience | 00:20–01:26 | | Passover table & Jewish traditions | 01:26–04:37 | | The Last Supper scene (betrayer revealed) | 04:37–07:38 | | Judas’s internal conflict; Peter’s intervention | 08:57–14:15 | | Sanhedrin plotting & political intrigue | 15:00–26:14 | | John & Jesus discuss mythology, flaws, and fear | 18:12–21:53 | | Judas’s confrontation and tragic turning point | 26:24–28:52 | | Cursing of the fig tree | 29:37–31:40 | | Women's Seder & Dayenu scene | 32:37–38:34 | | Reflections on apostleship, gender, and narrative choices | 36:36–39:54 |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The Chosen’s “The Same Coin” is praised by the hosts for its layered and honest exploration of Gospel events. From subtle storytelling techniques (slow pans, muted lines, shaky cameras for emotional effect) to direct engagement with complex cultural, theological, and gender dynamics, the episode is interpreted as an invitation to wrestle with flawed perspectives, misunderstood motives, and the often-hidden faith and strength of women in the story. Marty and Brent’s dialogue suggests that viewers—not unlike the disciples—are called to self-examination, wondering: “Which room would we be in? What would our Dayenu look like?”

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For more in-depth exploration and continued discussion, listen to the full episode or visit BEMA Discipleship.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is the Baymaw Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our analysis of season five of the Chosen with a discussion of the fourth episode.

[A]

Indeed. Man, I don't have anything to get rolling with here, so.

[B]

Well, I do, actually.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

I have to admit something. All right, Here I am four episodes in, and I'm finally realizing the theatrical experience has, like, made me misunderstand the flow of everything. At the beginning of every episode is the Passover scene, and then the rest of the episode is something else. In the theater, where they had two or three episodes grouped together at a time, I was just like, oh, it's just going back and forth between the Passover meal and the rest of it.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I did not realize that it was, like, one part beginning. They, like, condensed the credits. They did all these things, and I just. It has just now clicked halfway through the season that they're doing that beginning and then the rest of it thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I did not. Yeah, I did not have it like that in my mind.

[A]

That actually makes a ton of sense. And I bet that flowed in theaters, actually, really well.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. So that's my. You know, sometimes I pay attention to the little details and miss the whole forest.

[A]

Well, good enough.

[B]

All right, let's get into it. So we are at that Passover table, and they are doing something called the Day Inu, which. This was my first exposure to it, so educate me, Marty.

[A]

Yeah, no, that is the Dayenu. I'm definitely familiar with it. In a modern setting. I didn't spend any time. You know, I've just gotten so used to the way they'll utilize different things in a historical sense. I mean, you know me. I'm not quick to criticize that. There's so little we know for sure. I'm not sure where we can date the Dainu as something that community engaged. I didn't even care enough to look it up. I should have. I should have cared enough to look it up, but I didn't, because I was like, no, this actually. This fits right here. It flows. And we've now seen them do similar things with, like, we're gonna see haroset later on in the Seder mill. He's got some haroset. He's gonna put on some matzah. I always talk about when I lead a Seder. Like, man, I really don't know if the haroset's gonna be there in the second Temple period.

[B]

Is that that, like, kind of. It kind of looked like some kind of a dip, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, it's an apple. It's an apple.

[B]

Fig.

[A]

Maybe not fig, but it's an apple. Fruity. It's supposed to symbolize the mortar of the bricks that they made in Egypt. It's probably later, but then again, I don't know. Some of the things that I put in the Seder that I think probably are there in Second Temple. Other people have said like, there's no way. So who knows? Maybe that. But they've done that. I'm trying to think of other examples in previous seasons. They've just done that before and very tasteful. Oh, it was the. I think they said the Eshat Chayel in the Sabbath flashback, which was early. And I was like, well, they're probably not saying the Esha hail there. But they. But fitting. And I liked it. It's a similar vibes for me, so didn't even bat an eye.

[B]

Well, even the idea of like rabbis, not a formal title when Jesus was walking around, but the idea is there. Y pardes.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Same thing. Not using those specific terms, but.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We think clearly Principles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At play. So, yeah, that works for me. But they go through a whole bunch of Exodus stuff, a little bit of temple stuff. Lots of things. And then Big James has his addition at the end about Jesus choosing to come during their lifetimes.

[A]

Wait.

[B]

I have something to add.

[A]

If he had built for us the.

[B]

Holy temple and not sent the Messiah.

[A]

In our lifetimes.

[B]

It would have been enough. We would have waited.

[A]

But you chose us. You chose now, and it is enough. Thank you, Big James.

[B]

Then we kind of move on with the meal. And Peter and John exchange some looks. And then John leans in and asks Jesus who is going to betray him. And Jesus whispers to John, we can't hear it. But then Jesus dips and hands it over to Judas. And then the look on John's face is absolutely priceless in this moment.

[A]

Yeah, I can remember watching that scene. I cannot picture the look on his face as we record right now. But I do remember the scene that you're talking about. And, you know, again, I've kind of enjoyed how they peeked because we have all these questions. How did that work? What was being whispered? What was being said to where everybody could hear it? What was being said to where only the people sitting next to each other could hear it. And they put together those details in a way that I could definitely see I could relate to. It's not ridiculous. And that interaction is a great example of how they've done some of those things.

[B]

Yeah. And this is all in John 13. So from John's perspective, he's writing this and he says that Jesus says to him, it's the one who I'm going to. And so we know that that's what Jesus is saying to John, but I think the way they portray it, where we can't hear Jesus saying that is like, yeah, we know that that's what Jesus said because John wrote it and he's the one he said it to. But just the. The fact that in the rest of the room, this was not like a big open conversation. It was kind of. Everybody was doing something else.

[A]

Yeah. There's a very personal comment that Jesus makes to Judas in this scene where he says he has you now, I believe referring to probably the adversary or the Satan or however you want to phrase that.

[B]

But yeah, John 13:27, it says, as soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. And I didn't look up what word is actually behind that in John.

[A]

But yeah, which they really capture it in his eyes. At different points in this episod next episode, you really feel like Judas is. And again, not that I would necessarily read the passage exactly like that or see it that way, but as they've designed and created the show and written it, you really feel like he is. He's in a different headspace. Soul space.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than he has been previously, even in his struggles.

[B]

Yeah. And Jesus's response in the show, Judas is like, who. Who has me? And Jesus is not God.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

And so, you know, they leave it. They leave it open for all sorts of interpretations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, so John's look is like, when, like, it's a really slow. Like, Jesus grabs the bread and he breaks it a couple of times, and then he grabs the little leaf and he puts it on there. And then he. He kind of struggles to get the stuff on the bread, you know, And I'm like, sure. And then it pans over to Judas and then it cuts back to John and he just like, snaps forward, like, did I just see what I just saw? Oh, my gosh. What does this mean? But, yeah, so Judas, they have the conversation. Jesus says, what you're going to do, do it quickly. Judas takes a bite. And knowing that it's like an apple fig sweet sort of thing is different. I thought this was the horseradish thing.

[A]

Yeah, it's definitely how I do it in my Seder. I have this happening with the moror, but it's. Yeah, it's a different you could do that too. Especially as I've said this often throughout our journey through the chosen. Like, if I'm the one creating this and writing these scenes and having to make the. The cinematic experience, there are some moments where if I can dodge it, I'm gonna dodge it. And so if I can. If I can dodge them having to do the miror here, because that just changes. I mean, I don't know how you're gonna. You're gonna depict that. Well, on their behalf.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then it makes sense that they would even put the Harl set in there. It gives them something to dip. Right. That's totally feasible.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it does make sense because Judas did not really have that much of a reaction when he took the bite. But I was just thinking as I was seeing it, it's like, oh, he is like. He's like, okay, this is gonna be hard for me to do, but I. I need to, like. Yep, I gotta force Jesus hand. I gotta do what I'm gonna do because he's apparently, you know, chickening out or something. I don't know. I don't know exactly what. What we're trying to think Judas is doing. But, yeah, so he leaves. And then Matthew is like, where did Judas go? And the disciples like, oh, there's this tradition of giving alms for the poor. And he's like, but during the middle of the meal, and they kind of like, brush it off and.

[A]

Which I thought. I thought that was an interesting. Like, based on the anointing. It was interesting way to connect ideas with Judas leaving. That's not in the text, but very clever because, I mean, Judas has now made a big deal when Mary washes the feet of Jesus. And he was like, oh, the money could have been given to, like, the alabaster jar. Oh, the money could have been given to the poor.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So he's like. That all of a sudden has context that I really. I thought, oh, not a whole lot of. It's not deeply meaningful. I just thought, oh, that's clever. It's one of those little passive details. I was like, that's clever.

[B]

And if you think about it, it's like, wouldn't they wonder where he went? Because there's not that many of them. He's not really sneaking off.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So I like that. And then the scene ended with Jesus giving the new command to love from John 13. So.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then we go into the credits. So then we have Atticus watching over the crowd. Coffney is continuing to talk to the merchants and make his case for that whole plan. And then Yousef looks over, he sees Jesse and Veronica. They're talking about what the Messiah means and that they seem to be talking about coffee and what he's trying to do and all that stuff. So everybody's kind of watching everybody else. Then Mary's walking, and she sees Shmuel and asks him where to find Yusuf. And they argue about that for a little bit. Then Yusuf comes up. A lot of tension going on here. Mary ends up sharing her fears with Yusuf. And then someone calls Yousef and is like, oh, we gotta go do these plans with Shimon. A lot of tension going on here. A lot of, like, who's responsible for what. What's actually happening, what has been said? What are we just assuming?

[A]

I really like how they're portraying the spot that Yousef is in within the biblical text. Like, he's in this spot where he's a member of this Sanhedrin. He's got duties, he's got responsibilities that he actually wants to be there for. It's not like he wants to be a voice that's pushing probably against what he feels like. And I love. They haven't made Yusuf alone, like a lone ranger in the Sanhedrin room. There are other people, whenever they get together, that are, like, kind of fighting this other narrative. There's other Pharisees that are, wait a minute. This isn't right. This isn't how we see it. This isn't the right thing to do. So they haven't made Yusuf all on his own, but he's pulled in this. He wants to be a part of this thing, and yet he's got other. Not just responsibilities, but opportunities to be him in some unique spaces.

[B]

Yeah. And Shmuel is making all kinds of, like, sort of inflammatory accusations against him. Like, oh, you. You just think this because you're enamored with him and you're not actually thinking clearly. And Yusuf is remarkably, like, calm in the face of those things. He does not get very defensive about it.

[A]

You know, the memes that talk about, you know, two clips that give off the same energy. I feel like the Judas and the Shmuel, like, at this point in the. In the storyline, like, they give off the same energy. Like, Judas is now, like, crossed. Whatever that is. He's crossed the threshold. And Shmuel, he is absolutely. He's, like, not even thinking straight. He's just, like, losing his mind. Every time he opens his mouth, he's crossed the threshold. He was at this point of, like, what is he gonna do. Where is he gonna go? And now he's just like, yeah, can't even think straight.

[B]

Last episode, two episodes ago, where he was like, oh, Jesus is saying this? And they're like, no, he didn't actually say that. Exactly. Maybe we should get a scribe and write it down, because you're.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're trying to make more of this than it's actually there.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So then we have Judas sharing his concerns with Peter about Jesus's validation of Rome and their taxes and that whole system. And Peter is like, judas, I love you, man. I see that you believe in Jesus, but you don't actually trust him to do what needs to be done.

[A]

Yeah. Again, you see the same theme that Judith. They're giving Judas like this, like, I want to unify God's people. I want to unify Israel, but we have to unify them against Rome. We've got to unify them as a powerful social movement. But that unification. And I did love that line. I wrote it down. From Peter, you believe he could make.

[B]

Swords magically appear in the hands of all those people. And yet from that same mouth, you question his every move. Why can't that faith that believe so fully, know so deeply also allow you to trust that he knows what he's doing?

[A]

You keep wanting to use Jesus for all the things he could do. You want to use Jesus for the moment and the movement. You actually don't want to listen and follow what he says as a leader and a shepherd. And I thought, yeah, that's pretty good. Pretty good reflection points, maybe even for us in our world, pretty good.

[B]

And again, kind of a softer stance from Peter. Like, he could just totally lay the hammer down.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But he's trying to, like, help Judas actually see something totally. And he's, you know, he has some harsher words and some more straightforward statements about it, but he also just, like, leaves room for Judas to come around and change his heart on his own.

[A]

Yeah. You've just articulated something that I've sensed and haven't put words to, but we have watched Peter change over the course of these seasons, and, like, we've seen good personal growth and development, for sure. Without a doubt. Not even, like, I'm choosing to see this in the character. No, in the character development as they've depicted it. He is definitely growing, which is going to make, spoiler alert his betrayal, his denial of Jesus that much harder to watch because of how he's going to feel. And yet, as a viewer, you're like, I'll probably have a lot of things to say about that. I'm assuming that might be next season, but maybe it's this season. Who knows? But like, oh, no, Peter, like, you are growing. You're not the same person that Jesus found in the boat in Galilee. Like, he really has changed. It's really something.

[B]

Yeah. So then we are with Caiaphas and Gadara. They're talking about Jesus. Gadara says he thinks Jesus is of the Pharisee persuasion, which is like, what a delightful little thing for Bama listeners to hear in the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Caiaphas is. He's like, well, what? So he believes in the resurrection, but he doesn't believe in marriage there. Who would want to go to heaven like that?

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

And they call this. They call it. They didn't call it. There has been called an emergency meeting of the Sanhedrin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they're like, well, is it going to be for this? He's like, well, no, it's more important to like, the real reason we're doing this is to undermine Jesus authority. Caiaphas is like, it was a really good effort by Yanni to trap Jesus, but the people are still enthralled with him and it didn't actually work. Jesus is walking into a trap where everybody loses. We lose. Like, it's just going to be bad for everybody if this goes the way it goes. And he says that the Pharisees are not thinking clearly. The public trap of Jesus is not working. Caiaphas says he's going to save the day by quietly arresting Jesus. And then the people can focus on Passover. The whole thing will blow over. And Kaderius is like, well, the one problem with that is actually being able to find Jesus, which is so hard for me to picture as we go through these things because it's like, we generally know where Jesus is most of the time. There are moments where it is portrayed that Jesus is off somewhere else and his disciples don't know where he is or whatever. But for the most part, it's like, how hard could it be to find? Like, Jerusalem is not that big. Right. But that does seem to be the case in. In many of these passages.

[A]

So I like how they pulled the details of the political and religious, like the socio religio. Political dynamics together and that I've had some of the same thoughts about. They're working really hard to make Jesus like he's. He's just sneaking away at every. Like, he's here and he's gone. We don't know where he went. Which is fine. I could see that being historically plausible. I don't know how necessary it necessarily is within the text or the storyline itself, but that's definitely how they've wanted to depict it. The one thing they're not doing, and I'm okay with this, they are not at this point depicting a secret Sanhedrin. Like, we've talked before about how Josephus references. There's like kind of the mafia, the corrupt Sanhedrin, and then there's the official one. They've kind of wrapped it all together and they've done it really well in order to wrap it all together. And you kind of see the corruption with Caiaphas and you assume that it's kind of elsewhere in the family. They've made that kind of clear. And they've made the statements about Herod. They're the Herodian priests of the Herodian Picts. Your dad doesn't even want you to be a priest. Like, those kind of connections they've made. But they've done it without having to try to depict a formal Sanhedrin and an informal corrupt Sanhedrin, which so far I've really been impressed with, how they've done that without making that distinction.

[B]

Yeah. And of course, this isn't necessarily the same thing, but even this scene kind of is like, you know, backroom conversation about how we're going to pull this off. So this is a little flavor of that, even if it's not as formalized as we might have thought of it.

[A]

Totally. Yep.

[B]

So then we're back in Phoebe's house. John is examining a fresco, and Jesus enters and kind of startles him, and he's like, no, no, it's fine. Let's sit down. Jesus asks him about it. John says that it starts like the story of Jephthah. And he's like, the Hittites. And Jesus, like Ammonites. And he's like, oh, yeah, sorry. And then it's this whole story about Agamemnon. He sacrificed his daughter, then he's killed by his wife, and then the wife is killed by the Son. And then the Furies haunt him. And Jesus kind of asks a question. John's just like, I think. I think I'm starting to understand more what's going on here. We have this flawed perspective. Things are going to change for us. And Jesus is like, yeah, you've been paying attention. Things will change. But I'm going to forgive you. You don't have to worry about forgiving yourself. I'm not going to leave you or Forsake you. It was a touching scene.

[A]

Yeah. I wondered if this was. I had in my notes. Was this where they're kind of putting the John 15 vibe? Abide in me, Remain in me. Because I've been following a lot of the John dialogue and I don't know if that's going to make it directly in. But this had the same. The same energy, the same vibe, the same point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I really liked, really liked. Like, I just did, actually, the. I just filmed today as we record this, the group discussion video for the episode where we talked about this in our verse by verse journey through John. And just looking back on that material, like, I am more convinced than ever that John 15 and all of that discourse sits in a bed of persecution talk. Even more so than I ever gave it credit for when we were actually even recording those episodes. That was a theme of what we talked about. And yet I think it's even bigger and deeper than I even realized back then. And I really liked how this dialogue flowed with that. I had a couple other notes. I really liked this scene a lot. I loved the clever. I mean, it's John. This is John, the gospel writer. John. We've talked about his.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Greek. And he's got this like, awareness of the Greek myths and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I won't tell Zebedee. And there's been a couple different quips here and there about how he knows it or whatever, but he knows it. He knows the nuances. I thought that was really good. And we could argue about who stole what from who, the Greeks or the Bible.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I don't want to say stole. I mean, who's leveraging what. Yeah, but that one, I just thought, man, just a. I. And this could just be how I'm choosing to hear it, but I feel like the chosen is not pulling punches that they could easily pull. Like they could easily, easily choose. I mean, there's a statement. What did John say? We are all doing things from our own flawed perspective. Yeah, that was the statement he made. Like, we're all. I'm just like, dude, that is a line that just really speaks well to the world we live in, where we're at as a people, as a church, as whatever. I just thought, you don't have to go after that. But they've had multiple places where I'm like, dude, that's a thunderbolt for where we're at in our world today. And I really appreciate. And maybe I'm choosing to hear it through my own lens. And they meant it the other way, who knows? But I just really like that line. I bracketed it with big, bold underlines. So, yeah, loved it.

[B]

That was the thing that, like, led to John's fear. He's like, hey, I'm starting to get it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'm realizing that my perspective and all of our perspectives has been flawed and I'm going to mess it up and we're going to lose you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And Jesus is like, yeah, you're paying attention. You do get it. Things are going to change. But you don't have to worry about that because I forgive you and I'm going to be with you.

[A]

Yep, totally. Yeah. Crazy.

[B]

All right, so then we're back with Caiaphas and Gadara. They're approaching and Ozen meets them outside and Yanni comes out and they deny them entry. They're like, yeah, we can't have the high priest in there because then you'll kind of sway them too much. And this whole scene where they're meeting is kind of feels a little bit John 11. But we already had a portrayal of that scene previously. That's the one where Caiaphas goes like, you guys know nothing at all. I particularly love that line. But inside we have Shimon talking to Zebediah. He's like, we're no longer in control. And Zebediah blames the Hillel sympathizers. Again, just. Are they saying this just for Bama listeners? I don't know. Maybe. But Shimon says Jesus is dismissive of their tradition and their precedence, and he's not under their authority. And so he asks for proposals on what to do about this. Shmuel says, I have documented all this stuff. He brings up Lazarus. Yusuf argues like, a resurrection is not an affront to our law. Like, that's a good thing. Why are you arguing against this? And then Shimon says, if they believe he can raise the dead, why wouldn't they assume he's the Messiah? And Shmuel's like, yeah, exactly. So because this whole thing is a hoax. We gotta kill Lazarus. And Zebedee calls a vote. And the whole voting process was really interesting too, because as they're bringing stuff around, like, you could be a little more coy about it, but some people are just like, very slowly placing their stones in the bowl.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And like, hey, does everybody see what I'm voting for? Make sure, you know, and then, yeah, you know, they put their stones in there and then look around like, and give each other those looks of self satisfaction and whatever. So really interesting portrayal of This, I thought.

[A]

Yeah. And a very emotional vote by the time they got there. Definitely not the objectivity. Not that they would have the same kind of Western abstract objectivity that we would clamor for. But as depicted in this scene, very. Where, again, Shmuel's just kind of like, lost his mind. We're just calling for a vote and putting it to a vote and get it to the spot, and here we are.

[B]

So then back outside, Caiaphas is getting an update from Zebediah and Yani, and they're. They're going on. They start talking about the previous high priest, Annus, and it's a real Han Solo situation going on here because Caiaphas and Yani are saying Annis, but Zebediah is saying Anas. And so I don't know, you know, how everybody can't say, is it Han Solo or is it Han.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is it Alderaan or is it Alderaan?

[A]

Yeah. And I wasn't sure if that was just the way that they were saying it as characters in the show, out of the show, or if it was. I don't even know the difference in. I know that Annas comes from Ananias. I don't know how Aramaic versus. Because the Sadducees in that crowd is probably going to speak far more Aramaic than maybe some of their Hebrew counterparts. Does that change how they pronounce it or. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, maybe there's something to that.

[A]

Who knows?

[B]

But ultimately, they're trying to force the hand of Caiaphas. They're like, hey, we're going to. We're going to bring in some other people. We're going to invoke the name of your father in law. The whole thing is just incredibly awkward. They're, like, strangely praising each other. And then strangely, Caiaphas is kind of slamming Yawny a little bit, and he's like, thanks for that kind of backhanded compliment.

[A]

Right? Yep.

[B]

But ultimately, they decide that they're going to get some extra opinions and some extra authority. They're going to try to. Try to add some authority to what's going on here.

[A]

Yeah. I was very curious at this point, like, okay, what's going on here? Why are they doing this? How is this getting. I knew that it's relevant to the biblical text. So at this point, as I'm watching it, I'm just curious of like, oh, what are they doing? Why? And how is this going to work? I still, at this point, where I'm at watching the season, which isn't I'm not done with the season yet. I'm a little bit ahead. I'm still not entirely sure how this fits with. I don't necessarily understand the reasoning, and I could just be slow on the uptick, but the adding authority. I'm not sure what the dynamic. I'm not following the dynamic. Not that it's super important, but nevertheless, curious. I am, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. To me, it kind of seems like a. Like, we know we want to get rid of this guy, but we got to make sure we have all our ducks in a row or we're going to get in trouble with Rome or something like that. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

So then we're back with Judas in the house. He finds Jesus and they sit down together, and Judas is talking about how people are going to twist Jesus words. It's this critical moment, and Judas wants Jesus to lay claim to being the Messiah and just take control of everything. And Jesus asked Judas if you will still believe even if he doesn't do whatever Judas has imagined he's going to do. And Judas is like, well, of course. But, like, why am I even here if I'm not helping you? Like, I have a particular set of skills. Am I not supposed to use that? And Jesus is like, I didn't. I didn't ask for your advice. And now you got to make a choice. Who do you belong to? It was me at one time, but it might not. You got to figure that out. And Jesus asked him to leave. And Judas struggles. He's like, I don't know. And it's like, no, I really need you to go. And so he leaves, and Jesus just weeps.

[A]

Yeah. Another good. As far as character development and how it operates, another good scene. One of the statements I have written down, All Israel is gathered, ready to crown you king. Like, we're on the. Like, I know how to make deals. And this deal is on a knife's edge is what he says.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, lay claim to your birthright. I never asked you for your advice. Then what am I here? Like, he blows up. What am I here for? Like, if. Which is very telling that he's like. He thinks he's there to, like, be Jesus's advice guy, to, like, help him in this moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just. I had another note that I just circled that said evil eyes. Like, this whole thing is for Judas is. He doesn't have a good eye. He has a very evil eye.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is tainting every opportunity that he has because there are many for him to See what truly is going on or what could be happening or who Jesus could be or what he could be up to. He just has, he has an evil eye. It's not generous, it's very narrow, it's very self preservation oriented and it just drives him to the, the place he's at. And that choice of who do you belong to? Had Foreman, Genesis, Joseph vibes on that, on that line.

[B]

Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah. And the whole perspective about it being a deal. Yeah, like, oh my goodness. Because there's so many passages elsewhere where it's like, oh, the free gift of God. Yes, freely I've given to you, now you freely give. It's just not the way of Jesus.

[A]

Yep, totally.

[B]

So then we cut over to Joanna talking to Tamar about Passover and their kind of perspective of it as outsiders and how they've looked at it and how they've participated in it. And then Mary comes in and she's like, hey, we gotta pack Jesus, we gotta get outta town. And then Peter comes in a few moments later and it's like, oh, we're actually staying together for now, let's go. And Judas is talking to Peter on the way about how nobody seems to get it. He's like, are you guys, are you guys all drunk? A little bit of is it acts one or two vibes where they're like, it's nine o' clock in the morning, but you guys sure what's going on here? And Jesus says he's hungry and he finds a fig tree. And John's like, it's not in season what's going on here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then Judas makes this comment, like in the middle of Jesus looking around the tree and he's like, this whole trip is a waste of time. We shouldn't be out here. We have better things to do than go to Bethany. And then Jesus curses the fig tree and it was like, are you talking about the fig tree or are you talking about a different.

[A]

Yeah, they definitely left enough room because you know how we taught, we teach that in session three. And they left enough room for there to be clearly like, I think there's something more than just the tree. The disciples are kind of engaging it on that level. On the other hand, the disciples, you really feel like everything's unraveling kind of as they're walking on the road. You get this real sense of like their bonds are loosening their bonds together. Like they're not real tight. Like, yeah, we're on, we're on mission together. Like they're starting to ask questions. Judas is losing his mind. They're all kind of at wit's edge. The whole week has shook them. Like, I. Again, I think the chosen's done a really good job of, like, just casting that. That contextual net. They could have just had people play their part, do their job, say their lines. They've really done a great job directing a. They're tired, they're confused, they're angry, they're sad, they're a mess. And it's not the same group that we saw even in last season walking on the Road. And I thought that's. That's well depicted.

[B]

Yeah. And this cursing of the fig tree occurs in Matthew 21 and Mark 11. It's not actually in Luke, but they have it in the show when they're on their way to Bethany. But in the Gospels, it's on their way from Bethany back to Jerusalem when this happens. But even within those two accounts, a little bit of disagreement. The fig tree immediately withers in Matthew, and it's not until the next day in Mark, which is backwards from what I would typically expect from those two. If you're like, hey, in one of the accounts, the fig tree immediately withers, and then the other one, it happens the next day. Which one's Mark? Which one's Matthew? I would totally get it wrong.

[A]

Yep, totally.

[B]

But then they get to the house of Lazarus. Jesus asked his disciples to keep watch while he dines inside with the women. And John is kind of listening. I. I'm not completely sure. I assume John can hear them, although later on, like, they have the music, and it's like, can John actually hear them? I don't know. But Jesus is recalling all these stories with them. They bring in Luke 2 with Jesus being left at the temple and his mom's memory of that, and he's just. Jesus is going around the table recognizing the hardships of everyone. I was particularly moved by his comments to Tamar and how her faith is still beautiful and her response to that. And it's just like, none of this. He just doesn't even compare to the joy of following you. I thought that was really great. But then Jesus is like, I gotta ask you one more thing. I need some time alone. And he refers to them as apostles. And I think that's the first time in the show that he's used that word.

[A]

I noted it.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't know what it is about that, but he wants them to keep a distance. And then Sister Mary was like, well, if we can't Have a Seder meal with you. Then we want to do the dainu in place of that. And they have prepared their own version of it. Lots of crying among the women. Lots of crying. For me, this is a very, very emotional, moving scene because we have come to know these people so well.

[A]

Absolutely. Probably one of my top five scenes of the whole series. The whole kit and caboodle. I have all kinds of notes here. Brett Billings.

[B]

Oh, yes. I would hope so.

[A]

First of all, I have a note for you. Did you notice the shaky camera in this scene? The camera was very shaky.

[B]

I did not.

[A]

I was like, was that a mistake, or is that being done on purpose? Like, it was such a weird. Because it was pretty shaky, huh? I thought I noticed it, and then I paid attention. And that camera is, like, all over the place, like somebody with a cell phone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I didn't know if it was being done on purpose to give a particular feel to the interaction or.

[B]

I would say it's certainly on purpose. I cannot imagine it not being on purpose. Yeah.

[A]

Unless those were just, like, such great lines and great shots that even though the camera was getting bumped, they used it anyway. I don't know.

[B]

No, I don't. I doubt it. That's gonna be intentional. Yeah.

[A]

So I love this scene. And I know I keep thinking throughout this, like. And I keep asking people that I know and I respect that are watching the chosen that like it or don't or whatever. Women. I have been interested in the perspective of how women see these characters. And I've mentioned this in past seasons. Like, there's these moments where it feels a little. I don't want to say complementarian, but, like, patriarchal. Like, oh, there's Eden, just doing the women's work, just being the wife. They keep putting women in the women's box, yada, yada, yada. But then I'll have other moments where I'm like, oh, they are really working hard to really center and kind of push these women. And so I've had the same problem here with the women being separate for Seder. Like, here they're out at their own dinner, and I'm like, oh, man, they're separating the women and the men. I don't know how I feel. I loved this scene, personally, because you get what I'm learning about right now. In grad school, part of my work has been contextual biblical hermeneutic studies, like the history of the Bible. There's a bunch of my professors that are very strong in the feminist scholarship movement. So I Get that. I get a lot of that in my classes. And one of the things that they are quick to point out, and I think there's absolute credibility here, is that the Gospels present the male disciples close to Jesus, but boy, do they struggle. Kind of knuckleheads, people that really don't have faith. And when you look at the women in most all of the gospel accounts, like they're not necessarily centered and they're not as close to Jesus, but they get it. They get it. And this scene depicted a group of. I mean, just think about how this room feels compared to the dudes. Yeah, they are a mess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for good reason. I understand, I get it. But here's a group of women, same context, same set of questions. And he says, Mary, you understand? I mean, historically speaking, as a biblical scholar, I'm not saying that I am a biblical scholar, but thinking like a biblical scholar.

[B]

You're on your way, Marty.

[A]

We're working on it. The Mary Magdalene, scholastically in historical academia, the Mary Magdalene storyline is captivating. For them to choose to say Mary, you get it. You see it clearly. Like if you're not into that scholarly debate, nobody's going to catch that. That is a big statement for the chosen folks to be making that statement. To call them apostles, they could have used a gazillion other words. They chose that word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like this scene for me shows a room of women that not only intellectually understand, emotionally understand, are pastorally present. For me, you separate the woman. And they did not have to do this scene. This scene is not in the biblical text. You would not have to do it. And yet this scene was some of the most. And I'm sure it could easily be a setup for later on, the resurrection and Mary's part and all that kind of stuff. This is just so well done as a work of honoring. Honoring the women in this story, historically in the text. I love that they had their own dayenu prepared. Oh, good golly, goodness gracious. Yeah, to. And so I had, like I just had in my notes to end my notes for this episode. Like I just had thought, exercised a thought exercise circled like, hey, what would be my dayenu if I wrote it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would my Diana look like? B which room would I be in?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like so many thought exercises could come off of this episode that would be well worth my self reflective time. I just loved it. One of my, one of my favorite, my favorite top five scenes of the entire series so far.

[B]

So good. Was so good. So well done on the Apostles. Word, though. I think he was referring to the guys.

[A]

Oh, was he?

[B]

I think he was telling the women that he needed them to stay at a distance because he needed to give some final instructions to his apostles.

[A]

Oh, that's right. That's right. And it did have a male. Yep, yep. He was referring to the 12 as a separate group. Yeah, that's right. No, you're absolutely correct.

[B]

But other than that, I agree with everything you said.

[A]

Yeah, no, I know. You're right. You're totally right.

[B]

And maybe he will refer to the women as apostles in some regard later on. But.

[A]

Yeah, well. And I. And I wondered about it, because the camera shot to Mary, because you're like, I bet Mary probably feels like. Like, if Rhema would be still alive. Tamar, Rhema, Tamar and Mary. If I were them, I'd be like. And, yeah, here we are. And the camera kind of shot to them. And I was like, okay. There was like, this acknowledgement of like, yeah, some of them are in this room too, but I'm talking about them. But anyway, I digress. We all see what we want to see, for sure.

[B]

Well, and Mary gets up and she leaves, heading into Jerusalem. And they're like, but he said not to. And she's like, he said not to be near him, but not to stay away from the city. And so she's. She's got some plans that she's trying to. She's trying to figure something out. I don't know. Was this portrayed. Maybe we're out of order in time again, because it was earlier in this episode when she goes and finds Yousef. So is this scene before. Yeah, because there's the talk about, like, oh, we need you guys to go to Bethany. When he told Zebedee that he needed to get the women to go to Bethany. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just realizing that the timeline might be out of order here. But anyway, Mary has some ideas, but she does get it. And it seems that she's not alone among the women in their understanding of what's going on here.

[A]

I got some of the same questions. With the Mary leaving, I'm not sure what she's up to or what they're doing with all that in the backstory. I'm still waiting to see if maybe more comes out because she keeps popping in like she's there for Yusuf. And I'm like, is she doing other stuff, too? Do they have her doing other things? Or is it a timeline? Is it like kind of like the satyr flashbacks? This was their own satyr flashback. Right. I'm not sure, but I'm waiting to find out.

[B]

And some of them don't want to get it because they kind of. They kind of do get it, but they don't want it to be true. Like his mom.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But yeah, they do get it. So that's it for this episode. Marty.

[A]

My wife always makes a joke of Mary. The Mary and Martha Mary. She's always got a smile on her face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like she's just perpetually smiling as an actress.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was a hard scene because she was just had that bubbly little. But it wasn't bubbly, but it was still like smiley Mary.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're like, no, no, don't smile this time.

[B]

Maggie thinks that she is reminded of Anna Rose. Quals oh, sure. That character. Yeah. Just. I see that over overflowing sense of joy.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

So shout out to Anna Rose at the end of this episode. But that's it, Marty.

[A]

Okay. That's this episode. Time to see what happens in episode five.

[B]

We will see soon. Yeah, I don't. I don't have anything additional to add, so I'll just say people can go to baymoddcipleship.com and get in touch with us if they want. But yeah. Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Behemoth podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.