476: The Chosen S5E5 — “Because of Me” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

The BEMA Podcast: Episode 476

The Chosen S5E5 — “Because of Me” (Bonus Episode)

Date: October 13, 2025
Hosts: Marty Solomon & Brent Billings

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, Marty and Brent continue their analysis of The Chosen Season 5, focusing on Episode 5, “Because of Me.” The discussion weaves between the show’s cinematic and narrative choices, fresh biblical insights, and deep reflection on the text and its modern applications. Together, they dissect key scenes, explore the historical and textual context of the Gospels, and grapple with how these stories are adapted for modern audiences—never shying away from emotional or theological complexity.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cinematic Choices in “The Chosen”

• Shaky Cam & Scene Technique ([00:23]-[01:41])
  • Brent revisits Marty’s previous observation about “shaky cam” filmmaking (intentionally unsteady camera work) noting its use in all disciple and street scenes, except for tripod shots in solemn or power-laden settings (e.g., the Last Supper, the Sanhedrin).

    “It makes the camera a little more of a character and less of a... you’re just passively observing from a distance.” —Brent [01:37]

  • Marty and Brent appreciate a beautiful dolly shot as Jesus gives the new commandment.

2. Judas, Satan, and Scriptural Details

• Judas and Satan Reference ([02:02]-[03:14])
  • Brent shares his discovery that the Gospel of John only uses “Satan” once (in reference to Judas), despite often assuming a broader context.

    “It's right there in the text...I just cannot believe. Every single time. I'm like, where is this coming from? ...And then it’s right there in the text.” —Brent [02:54]

  • Marty reflects on how constant discussion of the Bible can blur memory between personal interpretations and what’s actually present in the text.

3. Disciples Grappling with Betrayal

• Disciples’ Anxiety and Theories ([04:13]-[05:44])

  • The disciples are fraught with tension over who will betray Jesus.
  • Jesus offers reassurance to Thomas:

    “You have been faithful in spite of your anger.” —Jesus (as portrayed in The Chosen), discussed at [04:42]

  • Scenes feel natural and chaotic—emotions run high, and overlapping conversations suggest that information passes only in fragments.

• Discussion on Greatness & Judging Tribes ([05:44]-[06:15])

  • Brent and Marty note that Peter asks, “What about the betrayer? Is he going to judge them, too?” Jesus responds ambiguously, “You’ll sort that out.”

4. Temple Elites, Political Tension, and Power Plays

• Sanhedrin Power Dynamics ([06:27]-[10:16])

  • Market scenes feature acerbic character Barnaby taunting elites, and discussion on the plausibility of his behavior in historical context.
  • Ananus and Caiaphas engage in a fraught, tension-filled meeting about what to do about Jesus. Ananus quotes Proverbs 11 to justify council. Caiaphas reveals the decision to arrest Jesus is already made.

    “At the end of the day, Jesus doesn’t actually have anything to offer here. He’s just saying all these big things...Reality is going to set back in eventually.” —Ananus, paraphrased at [07:35]-[08:20]

• Casting Note

  • The actor’s age difference between Caiaphas (81) and his wife Shoshana (≈30) sparks discussion about historical plausibility of such marriages.

5. The Fig Tree and Foreboding Predictions

• Withered Fig Tree & Warnings ([10:45]-[12:37])
  • The Mark 11/Mattew 24 scene blends warnings of coming tribulation with the fig tree miracle.
  • Jesus’ exasperation with the disciples is notable:

    “Something else must happen, which I have told you before. And yet you seem unwilling, unable or... not sober enough to absorb.” —Jesus [11:41]

  • Marty draws a parallel with the Parable of the Sower—different ways disciples fail to “absorb” what Jesus teaches.

6. Claudia and Pilate's Domestic Drama

• Claudia’s Troubled Dreams ([12:37]-[14:10])

  • Claudia (Pilate’s wife) is deeply troubled by a dream/vision, foreshadowing her later pleading for Jesus in the Gospels.
  • Pilate’s indifference and Atticus’ power dynamics are explored, as is Atticus’ increasingly assertive presence.

• Atticus and Pilate Confrontation ([16:17]-[17:03])

  • Atticus forcefully asserts practical Roman authority over Pilate, leading to a tense confrontation about duty and power.

  • “That he is derelict in his duty was the line... A great showing of practical power on an imperial level.” —Marty [16:39]

7. The Sanhedrin’s “Showy” Prayer and Internal Doubts

• Sanhedrin Debate and Peril ([18:19]-[21:45])
  • Caiaphas orchestrates public prayers, Yussuf voices moderation, and Shmuel ramps up accusations against Jesus.
  • Observations about how showy religiosity and genuine faith can become entangled:

    “How easily it is to fill our church services...with the right words. ...Self-justified, eyes closed, pleading to the God of heaven to protect our agenda.” —Marty [20:14]

  • Shmuel grows troubled by the company he keeps and the direction of events.

8. The Disciples Struggle to Trust

• Despair, Hope, and Community Tensions ([21:58]-[25:56])
  • The disciples try to process the possibility of Jesus’ actual death, with theories ranging from denial to hope for last-minute deliverance.
  • Notable exchange:

    “What if we actually take him serious? Like, what would it mean if he actually means what he says?” —Matthew, paraphrased [22:58]

  • “I will not accept having wasted three years of my life.” —Z (Zealot) [25:56]

  • The group is fractious but shows glimmers of unity and personal growth.

9. Atticus Intervenes; Judas’ Betrayal Plot Builds

• Atticus Pursues His Own Agenda ([26:01]-[27:09])

  • As Z follows Atticus and soldiers through the city, viewers sense preparations for Jesus’ arrest.

• Betrayal Will Need “Something” ([27:37]-[28:04])

  • Shmuel hints to Caiaphas that the betrayal maneuver “might need something” (i.e., a reward/bribe), referencing the imminent involvement of Judas.

10. Surprise Return: Nicodemus!

• Mary’s “Kidnapping” and Reveal ([28:16]-[29:06])
  • The narrative misleads viewers to think Mary might be the betrayer, only to reveal that Judas is meeting with the authorities and Mary is led to a mysterious house to meet... Nicodemus!
  • Emotional reaction:

    “I did not see it coming. And he turned around, I saw his face and just instantly started crying. I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, Nicodemus, Niko’s back.” —Marty [29:54]

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Notable Quotes

• “You have been faithful in spite of your anger.” —Jesus (to Thomas), discussed [04:42]
• “How easily it is to tangle [Torah and tradition] up and not be able to pull those things apart.” —Marty [20:14]
• “[Caiaphas is] filling up with the right words, self-justified, eyes closed, pleading to the God of heaven... and boy, how you can end up on the wrong side of a story.” —Marty [20:14]
• “I think I see hope in this scene that I haven’t seen in the last few episodes.” —Brent [25:19]
• “I will not accept having wasted three years of my life.” —Z (Zealot) [25:56]
• “Dirty rotten Chosen!” —Marty, on the Nicodemus reveal [29:08]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:23 – Cinematic choices: shaky cam, character of camera
• 02:02 – Judas, Satan, and contextual discovery in John
• 04:13 – Disciples wracked with anxiety over the betrayer
• 06:27 – Sanhedrin intrigue, Barnaby’s needling, Ananus vs. Caiaphas
• 10:45 – The Fig Tree, Jesus’ warnings, exasperation
• 12:37 – Claudia’s vision, Pilate, and building political tension
• 16:17 – Atticus asserts “practical” Roman authority
• 18:19 – Sanhedrin debates Jesus’ threat, empty prayer, Shmuel’s doubts
• 21:58 – Disciples’ emotional chaos and hope glimmers
• 25:56 – Z storms out; Atticus mobilizes; betrayal in motion
• 28:16 – Mary’s “kidnapping,” Judas’ bargain, shock reveal: Nicodemus

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Tone & Themes

• Candid, at times humorous, and deeply reflective on both text and adaptation.
• Honest grappling with the limits of memory vs. scripture.
• Emotional resonance, especially on themes of betrayal, misunderstanding, religious blindness, and slow-burn hope.
• The Chosen praised for nuanced storytelling and character development, especially through “dirty rotten” cliffhangers!

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For Further Reflection

• Hybrid of historical, exegetical, and pop-cultural analysis—encourages listeners to continually self-reflect on their own reading and practicing of faith.
• The episode underscores both the value and peril of tradition, the ever-present danger of conflating personal interpretation with “what’s really there.”
• Draws out how adaptation like The Chosen can spark or reignite personal connection to ancient stories.

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End of Summary.
For more, visit baymadiscipleship.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Salman. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our analysis of season five of the Chosen with a discussion of the fifth episode. Because of me, Fifth episode.

[B]

I'm glad I have the right page of notes pulled up. I had this panic moment there. For a moment I was like, wait, which episode are we talking about today? Fifth it is.

[A]

I have a little bit of follow up from the last episode. So I went back and looked at the shaky cam situation that you mentioned, and it was indeed in the dinner with the women. Okay. But it was also in all of the street scenes and the disciple scenes, except for the Last Supper. The Last Supper is locked down and the Sanhedrin is locked down on a tripod or whatever.

[B]

So. Okay.

[A]

I don't know. I still completely believe it's intentional. There's no question in my mind that they know exactly what they're getting. I mean, there's a slight variability to it, but for the most part, yeah. I don't know why you noticed it in that one scene and not in the other scenes. Just curious.

[B]

So it caught my attention when there was a more significant jerk versus a bobble. And it was right when the camera changed to Jesus. And it looked intentional. Like, it looked like. And it definitely does something to the way you're experiencing the scene. Almost like you're present or. I don't know what they would call it, that first person. But there was almost like a whoop, we're gonna grab Jesus. And I was like, oh, wait, is the camera shaking? And then I watched throughout the scene. I was like, oh, yeah. So anyway, yeah, that's what got my attention originally. I don't notice that kind of stuff in the ways that you do, but that one got me.

[A]

Yeah, it makes the camera a little more of a character and less of a.

[B]

Like. Yep.

[A]

You know, you're just passively observing from a distance. So, yep, it did make me notice. Or I mean, I think I noticed it before, but just made me think about the beautiful dolly shot that they had as Jesus was giving the new command to love, where the camera is just like rolling backwards on a track and just slowly revealing more of the table. Love that stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that was good.

[A]

Also, the whole Satan thing, I looked that up. So it is the word Satanas or Satan, depending on which lexicon you're looking at. It is the only time John uses the term in his gospel. He uses it seven times in Revelation, but it's only the one time in the gospel. And I was so distracted by thinking about that aspect of it. And like Jesus in the show saying, well, it's not God. The text saying Satan went into him. Like I was thinking about that whole thing. I completely missed the following couple of verses, Marty.

[B]

I'm trying to remember them. Yeah, lay it on me.

[A]

Verse 27. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him what you're about to do, do quickly. But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. I'm like, oh, it's right there. I just cannot believe. Every single time. I'm like, where is this coming from? Oh, that's an interesting way of thinking about that. Blah, blah, blah. And then it's right there in the text.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I don't know why this surprises me anymore, but yep. Anyway, that's what I got.

[B]

Yeah, that's the problem of not having the. I mean, the original text was largely meant to be a spoken word, a heard word, rather than a red word. Obviously you didn't have the printing press, but one of the beauties of having the text in front of us, if you spend all day thinking about this stuff all the time, it is hard to remember half the time what is the stuff that you think about or the way it's been framed or the discussion about the possibilities versus what's in the actual text itself. When you don't have your Bible open in front of you. You talk so much about the Bible, it's hard to remember where your stream of consciousness ends and the actual text begins.

[A]

Well, that is a kind interpretation, Marty. Thank you. I think I should probably just know my text a little better, but whatever, whatever.

[B]

Spoiler horn.

[A]

So we have the disciples not sitting at the table at the start of this one. They're pleading with Jesus about who will betray him and what's going to happen. And we see Judas theorizing to Z and Philip that, hey, maybe it's Thomas, you know, blah, blah, blah. Of course, Thomas isn't part of this conversation. But then we see Thomas go over and ask Jesus directly. And I loved the line. He's like, how did I mess this up? Is it because of this? Is it because I'm angry? And Jesus says to him, you have been faithful in spite of your anger.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great line. Really good line.

[A]

And I don't even know how many other people heard that or how much stock, especially because the timeline's out of order. So I'm not sure exactly what. Was that just for Thomas, or did the. Did the whole group think, like, oh, okay, so it's not Thomas. We know that.

[B]

Yeah. I can't remember how my memory had it just between him and Jesus, but I can't remember where it happened and how that. If I heard. If I just heard it that way or.

[A]

Yeah. And obviously they're all in the same room, but everyone is so preoccupied with their theories and making sure that it's not them that I'm not sure that even if anybody was next to Thomas and Jesus, that they actually would have heard him anyway.

[B]

Yeah, totally. And through a lot of this scene, I get the impression that, like, maybe this person or these couple heard that. And, like, when John goes to put it all together later, they might have all shared stories about who said what, or it's not at all. 12 have to be hearing it. But if little bits and pieces are overhearing that or bits of the room are involved and engaged, that made it very believable to me. Yeah.

[A]

But the disciples continue arguing. It kind of gets a little bit elevated. Jesus rebukes them, they return to the table. And then we have the conversation from Luke 22 about who is the greatest. And then there's the comment about how they'll judge the 12 tribes. And I think it was Peter who was like, well, what about the betrayer? Is he going to judge them, too? And Jesus says, you'll sort that out. Yeah. And then they go back into the drops of wine for the plagues. And Jesus asked John to start the Dayenu. Kind of bridging it back to that scene from the last episode.

[B]

Yeah, totally. I don't know. I've really fallen in love with how they're using this now. It's fun to know about your theatrical experience that I didn't know until last episode, but I've loved how it's worked out with every episode starting like this. It's been good.

[A]

And then we're into the credits. So we have Yanni and Ananus and Gadara and Zebediah walking through the markets, and they're kind of just talking about what's going on. Barnaby comes up and provokes them. Just absolutely ruthless. I cannot imagine he could actually get away with. I don't know. It was unrelenting.

[B]

You know how when you make a great. I don't know. I'm not a Professional screenwriter. I don't even know what language to use. But when you make a great piece of work, there's often a character that just fits into that role. It's not overdone, but they just pop in. And he has definitely filled that role nicely. I too wondered, like, does he get away with that in their world, Second Temple Judaism, maybe, Maybe. But I love it as a. As somebody appreciating the season work. I just love Barnaby popping and doing his thing.

[A]

Yeah. Saying the things that we all want to say. So Gadara makes a comment on Jesus saying that prostitutes will enter the kingdom by before them. And Zebediah was like, you don't even believe in the kingdom. And he's like, well, it's just the principle. And Ananus is like, well, look, at the end of the day, Jesus doesn't actually have anything to offer here. He's just saying all of these big things and, like, currying their favor. But he's not actually going to be able to do anything for them. Reality is going to set back in eventually, so we don't have to worry about this. But then they get to the courtyard at Caiaphas's house and Ananus is saying like, hey, look, Caiaphas does not understand human impulses. He will inevitably mismanage this. And then they'll do whatever they want to do to like, turn it around.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[A]

But Shoshana, I guess, is Caiaphas's wife. And she comes out, greets them. They go inside. This is anonymous sister. And this is Maggie. Could not get over this. And I, I agree. This is crazy. The actor who plays Caiaphas is 81 years old.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And Shoshana is maybe 30. If we're like, she doesn't have an age listed on her bio and her website says that she can play 18 to 36. I'm like, well, even at the most generous end of that range, that is quite the age gap for Caiaphas and his wife.

[B]

So that won't be odd though, for that point in history. I can't remember where, like, whose birthday order falls, but those families would have taken wives after they lost wives.

[A]

Not his first wife.

[B]

And would have kept fathering especially. These families would have been big on fathering more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Progeny for their line. So it's. It's believable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not if it was like his original marriage with. And there are some people that are really into like, how the. I don't know what we know for sure from history, but there are Folks that could really get into that. And I'm not one of them. So I can't remember where who falls in the priestly family. But it's possible.

[A]

Yeah, not comfortable, but possible. So Ananus brought people with him, of course, and Caiaphas was hoping for a one on one consultation, I guess. Ananus quotes Proverbs 11 about many counselors, whatever. And Caiaphas is like, why, why do I even. Or he says, why does he even need collaborators? Tensions are very high, Like a lot of posturing, a lot of like, ah, you're not really doing this right. And at the end of the day he's like, well, look, I don't even need to talk to anybody because the decision has already been made to arrest Jesus.

[B]

Things are in motion. I'm still at this point trying to figure out what are they doing with these characters, why are they working them in the way that they are, Especially when the things were. The wheels are already in motion. I'm like, okay, we've worked very hard to bring him into the conversation in this way on purpose. I'm still curious if there's some larger thing that the dots haven't connected or as you've noticed, is right there in the text the whole time. And I didn't even realize it.

[A]

Always a possibility. So we have next the disciples walking and they notice the withered fig tree. So this is kind of the Mark 11 version of the story. Jesus responds with this same language from Mark 11 and then moves into the conversation from Matthew 24 about how they're going to go through tribulation and death. And then Jesus is like, look, I got to let you guys know, like, I'm going to be delivered up to be crucified. And the disciples are like, no, that's not. No, it can't be like that, blah, blah, blah. So of course some of them are getting it more than others in this moment.

[B]

Yeah. I have one note about a line I really loved about this fig tree portion. And it's when Jesus is like, there's this exasperated moment where he's like, I have told you this. What is the line I wrote down? But before this.

[A]

Something else must happen, which I have told you before. And yet you seem unwilling, unable or.

[B]

Not sober enough to absorb. They're acting like oblivious. And Jesus is like, I have clearly spoken this to you. And obviously he's exasperated as they portray it, but he also has this recognition of like, I understand you. You may not have been able to understand it. I understand you may not want to Receive it like you may just be trying to avoid it. And I understand you might not. Like, you're just. And I even thought of the parable of the Sower, like you're not even present enough to hear it. You're present enough, but your own agendas are getting in the way. You're present enough, but you also have no depth. Like, I felt like that same kind of line of reasoning. That was a cool part of the scene. That was a powerfully delivered line on Rumi's part. I thought that was really good.

[A]

So then we show up with Claudia and she has some musicians playing for her. She's just kind of sitting there on the bed and Pilot kind of storms in, tired of the music. And she is recounting some elements of a vision or something or a dream that she had. I don't know exactly what it was, but she kind of like suddenly has this realization, like, we gotta get out of this city. She's very troubled. Pilot does not say anything that helps her, only makes it worse. And she's like, well, I can't actually leave. I'd leave without you. And he's like, well, that's not gonna look good. And she's like, well, no, I can't leave actually. Cause then you'll do something really stupid. So again, I'm not exactly sure how this is going to play out. It's interesting to have this extra character in the pilot storyline.

[B]

Yeah. And how that part does fit the pieces. I really like how they've built that up. There are some characters and bits of the story where we only have like two or three significant bits. Like the Claudia storyline in the Gospels where she. She tells Pilate very clearly she's been troubled by Jesus, she's seen him in a dream, don't have anything to do with him. And yet they've taken that and they've built it out in a really substantial way that fits the character development. I mentioned a couple episodes ago, like, just how I'm learning about Pilate and how he situated himself according to some scholars. I think I quoted NT Wright a few episodes ago, but that's one dynamic that I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm tracking with that.

[A]

My curiosity is how she ends up playing into the whole trial and everything later on, if at all.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah, totally. I'm very interested to see that too.

[A]

Pilate goes out of the room with Claudia and Atticus is standing there and he reports that the Pharisees are plotting to arrest Jesus, which is an interesting, perhaps misunderstanding on Atticus's part, because we know that it's not actually the Pharisees who are responsible for that. Meanwhile, the Pharisees are getting told they're trying to do this public trap, and it's not working. So the other guys are going to take matters into their own hands. So interesting that Atticus is especially considering how much he is aware of the high priest stuff. And it's an interesting misunderstanding, and I feel like it has to be intentional. Well.

[B]

And I'm not sure if, as they're portraying it, it's as much of a misunderstanding as we would typically be seeing these scenes, because they're definitely portraying Shmuel. One of the biggest. Like, it's not ultimately his plot, but the one kind of drive. Like, they need the Pharisees to essentially, on the Sanhedrin side, get involved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the loudest kind of, like, talk about lacking sobriety. Like, the craziest voice. It's just like, we gotta kill him. Like, he's guilty of death has become. It wasn't the whole time, but it's become Shmuel.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you can see a. And not a universal Pharisaical presence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They've done a good job portraying that, but perhaps Atticus really feels like there's a plot underneath it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe because of Pilate's relationship with the Sadducees and Caiaphas, but the people that are out, like, doing the moving and shaking, trying to make this thing move could be the Pharisees.

[A]

That's true. Yeah. Atticus is the one in the streets seeing all the people moving around. He's seeing Shmuel more than anybody else. So that does make sense, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Pilate says they can't arrest Jesus, but, hey, maybe they will do it anyway. And then we can just find them and that'll make up for all of our lost revenue. And then no problem, like, everything's solved. And then Atticus comes up and just grabs Pilot.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And kind of tells him, like, look, dude, here's who I really am. And I've been trying to be nice to you this whole time, and you're really messing some things up. So Pilot is like, you can't touch me like that. And Atticus is like, oh, yes, I can.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And then he kind of storms off, and he's like, I'm going to go take care of some of these things myself, but when the time comes, you better be ready to take the reins.

[B]

Yeah. That he is derelict in his duty was the line that what A well delivered line. I thought it was a great showing of practical power on an imperial level, on a Roman level. You have like this practical authority that Atticus has versus I wouldn't say it's empty authority, but simply authority by title of Pilot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have this real collision of that. And that's what I was speaking of a few episodes ago, quoting N.T. wright and what I have recently been learning about Pilot. Had I not been reading that and doing so much study this year in that, I probably would have not loved that scene. But I'm having to like adjust maybe some of the assumptions that I've made about who Pilot was and how he operated and thought. That was a really. It was actually really helpful for my brain to like, oh, maybe it was more, more like this and less like I had assumed before.

[A]

And kind of fun to see Atticus, who's kind of been more of a jovial character. Like, he's just. He's always snacking on something, he's laughing about stuff, you know. Yeah, he's having serious conversations, he's, you know, paying attention to stuff. But he's. He's been, you know, more or less just hanging out most of the time. And now he's like, nope, this is getting. We have a problem now. And now I'm going to. I'm gonna take care of business.

[B]

Really grown to like that character. Like, I always liked him, but I wasn't sure, like how he was gonna work over the course of multiple seasons. Like, what have they done? Why is he here? Really have enjoyed what that character has allowed them to do in the Greco Roman elements of the story. Really, really great. I've enjoyed that.

[A]

So then we're back with the Sanhedrin. Gadara says that Jesus has to die and Yusuf says they don't have the authority to do that. And by the way, Jesus isn't even a thorn to all of us. And Shmuel makes a comment about how he has contempt for Torah, among other things. And Shimon is like, no, he doesn't have contempt for Torah, just some of the other stuff. And maybe we should be thinking about that. And ultimately Caiaphas cuts off the whole conversation. He's like, look, we're running out of time. Our peril is serious and the only answer is prayer. He goes into this very elaborate prayer, a prayer that you could. That you might consider a good prayer if not for the understanding of where Caiaphas's mindset actually is. So it feels very showy and empty. And at the end of it, Shmuel is very troubled and Yanni checks on him and then they cut the scenes short there.

[B]

Yeah. And I didn't know what to do. Like, what's happening with Shmuel all of a sudden? Like, what was that all about? Was it the prayer? Was it all of a sudden he realizes who he's out. I'm interested to see. I'm now caught up, Brent. I haven't watched any future episodes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I'm interested to see what they do with Shmuel for the next few episodes and where. Because I didn't know, like, what is that? Where is he going to go? Because he may be realizing, like, oh, I've gotten so wrapped up in my own agenda. I now realize I'm allied with people I am not usually allied with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought this whole scene was just a great, sober man. I've used that word now way too much. It was such a great word earlier. Now it's in my mind.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah, it's stuck in my mind now. This is such a great word. But I think this is a great opportunity just to be self reflective in this scene about what we do with our own religious. Like, so Shmuel gets Torah and tradition all tangled up. Jesus doesn't like Torah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And boy, do I feel that because we're not going to make this about me. But I can personally attest to being accused on the regular of not. Of not. Like, well, he doesn't really love the Bible. Marty doesn't. And I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I've made my whole life. And what we, what we get tangled up is our interpretations, our theology, our tradition about the Bible. And we make those things the same thing. Here's Shmulak. He has a disdain or what was the contempt? He has contempt for Torah. And I wait, no, he doesn't have contempt for Torah. He has contempt for some of our traditions and some of the ways we've interpreted it, but doesn't have contempt for and. But how easily it is to tangle those things up and not be able to pull those things apart. How easy it is to fill our church services or our podcasts or anything else with the right words. I think of Caiaphas as prayer. Fill it up with the right words. You can quote scripture that. I think you said it, Brent, that that prayer was full of text, self justified, eyes closed, pleading to the God of heaven to protect our agenda. And boy, how you can end up on the wrong side of a story. So just a call to be self reflective. And really examine how those things sneak into the way we do stuff every day. So I like that scene and its ability to talk to my. My own context. And I think a lot of us.

[A]

Yeah, I did not. I don't think I actually said it. But, yes, the. The prayer is full of text. I did not go to the trouble of looking up all of it. It was too much time. I. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't mind spending the time on it. I just did not have the time to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then we are back with the disciples. They are gathered together in a room. Emotions are very high. Matthew hugs Peter. Other people are hugging other people. And then they. Into this conversation where they're wondering if Jesus really means what he says. And Andrew's like, well, maybe we're just being tested. And John's like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. And John's like, this is not new. We just haven't been paying attention. I think John kind of got the message from the fig tree earlier. And Matthew is like, well, hold on. What if we actually take him serious? Like, what. What would it mean if he actually means what he says? And then Judas starts to go into this theory, and he's like, hey, maybe if he does mean it, maybe he'll actually get crucified. And then we'll know, and then we can go look for the real Messiah. And everybody freaks out about that, of course. And I think it was big, James, or maybe Philip was like, okay, no, no, hold on. Let him. Let him finish what he's saying. And he's like, well, maybe. Maybe he means it, and maybe he's going to get delivered up, but then in the last moment, he'll come out in full power, and he will evade death in the last moments. And, you know, everyone is kind of uncomfortable with that idea, but some people are like, well, yeah, that could be how it plays out. It's possible. So they're not having the greatest time, but they're. No, I think they're slowly starting to, like, work through their interpersonal tensions a little bit.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're starting to realize, like, yeah, I. I was being a little too accusatory of you. I need to. I need to remember that you're my brother. We're all in this together. We've all dedicated our life to this for the last three years. None of us want to see this all fall apart. So I think they're starting to, like, reform those bonds that have kind of been messy for the last few Episodes.

[B]

Yeah, that's a really interesting way to frame that. On another hand, it's just like a complete unraveling. High emotions. Obviously understood. That's in the text. Yes, yes, yes. But I did see, because I almost sensed the opposite of what you just said. But there was an element that you're talking about which is they're not the same people they were three years ago. Like, they're not the same people they were at the beginning of the ministry. They have formed bonds and so some of those bonds are actually pulling them together. And yet some of their divisions are like deep and sharp and yeah, very much not on the same page and arguing. And the person I think that you referenced earlier was actually Z. That almost comes to Judas's. I wouldn't say defense, but it's like, hold on, let him finish.

[A]

Oh, was it Z?

[B]

Okay, I'm pretty sure it was Z, if my memory serves me correctly, because I thought, oh, that's a great, that's cool, It's a cool little character to work in there. And he doesn't agree with Judas for Judas's sake, but he also agrees with some of what Judas is saying. So it was, it was this really great dynamic as far as screenwriting because there was all the division, there was the arguing about who's the greatest. There's disagreement, there's the grief of the disciples, there's James crying, there's high emotions. But there's also. We didn't go back to square one. There's development of community, there's development of their own thought. Yet there's still short sightedness, short tempers, disagreement. I just really liked that scene and I, I'm glad you said it the way you said it because there's, there's other ways to frame what we're seeing about their interactions. It's really good.

[A]

Well, and the bonds are definitely not fully healed. But I think, I think I see hope in this scene that I haven't seen in the last few episodes.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, that's a great way of. Yeah, I can see hope of what, Spoiler alert. We know is going to happen post resurrection in the Book of Acts. Like, yeah, Jesus has built some stuff, he's planted some seeds. Even though Jesus is pretty exasperated right now, like wondering if they've listened to anything he's taught. And I can't even imagine what it was, what it was like to be there. But that stuff that the Holy Spirit is going to pull together after the resurrection, it is there.

[A]

The pieces are there and Z is the one who says, I will not accept having wasted three years of my life. And he storms out and trips over a rock and then is mad at the rock and kicks the rock and died. I don't know if he hurt both feet or just hurt one foot twice, but he's not having the greatest moment. And then he looks up and he sees Atticus leading some soldiers through the street. And he, like, you know, snaps back into Z mode and starts following them. And the soldiers end up breaking into this house. And the house is occupied by Coffhni and his crew. And Atticus looks at Copni and smiles. And Coffney's like, I don't know what's going on here. He's still very fearful. But Atticus has some kind of plan here, and that's the end of that storyline for this episode. So we don't know what happens with that yet. But then we go to Shmuel, and he is on his way to see Caiaphas. He's past visiting hours, but he's ultimately allowed in. And he's like, hey, we have this potential asset who can lead us straight to Jesus. And then we see Mary walking, and she's basically kidnapped by our shadowy figure Jake.

[B]

And they keep going back and forth. So the buildup is obviously this asset they're referencing scene is Mary. That's how my family interpreted it.

[A]

I mean, yes, the buildup. You're like, oh, my gosh, what's going on here?

[B]

Yeah, this isn't in the. Like, what's happening? But great. Like, as far as how they cut that and filmed that and wrote that, it's cool.

[A]

Yeah. So this whole thing's back and forth, the whole, like, I don't understand why the kidnapping sort of process was necessary.

[B]

Well, at the end, we're going to know why they decided to write it that way.

[A]

Right. But, like, I feel like they could have just whispered in Mary's ear where they're going, and she'd be like, oh, yeah, let's do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's to. They had this whole. But whatever. So Shmuel is like, well, the one hiccup here is that we might need some money. I don't know if. I don't think he actually says money, but he's like, we might need something. And Caiaphas is like, yeah, we can do that.

[B]

Yes, correct.

[A]

We see. We come back, we see Mary being transported.

[B]

But the way they phrased it, too, you didn't know if he was gonna say money. You didn't know if he was Gonna say we're gonna need to kill somebody.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

It was open ended.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This may require. Like, you didn't know what. You're like, oh, my gosh. And then it's Mary and it's like. And then it's Mary and then it's Mary and you're like, oh, my gosh. What is it gonna require? And we know that my family, we know the story well enough. It's like, well, is he talking about the money? Yeah. Is this gonna be Judas?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's happening with Mary? Like, we were pulled into it. It was so good.

[A]

Well, so then the cart that Mary is in pulls up to the house. And then Malchus walks up to the window and announces the arrival.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then Mary's being brought out of the cart. And then Malchus opens the door and it's Judas and shmuel.

[B]

Judas walks through. Very sly. Well done. Chosen.

[A]

But then we're like, well, what is Mary doing then? And exactly. So she's led through the house. And then we come back, we see Judas sit down with Caiaphas. And then we're back in the other house with Mary. And then Nicodemus appears.

[B]

Dirty rotten Chosen.

[A]

This was the end of a three episode set in the theater. So this is how the screening ended was Nicodemus.

[B]

And I was like, dirty rotten move. I mean, I mean, I had been wondering every now and then I've remembered Nicodemus and I was like, oh, they're gonna bring him. They're gonna bring him back eventually. And obviously you remember from that first. Was it the first season? Like he was done after the first season, right?

[A]

I believe it was just first season. Yeah, I think so.

[B]

If you remember, Mike, my favorite character, like, I don't want to say that when I saw his face, like I like violently emotional, but what a dirty rotten trick. I did not see it coming. And he turned around, I saw his face and just instantly started crying. I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, Nicodemus, Niko's back.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. He's finally fallen through on what he couldn't quite break bring himself to do in the first season.

[B]

Well done. Shows and writers. And that was the end of the second theatrical installment, huh?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, that was well done. They got me. They got me at every turn there in the last five or ten minutes.

[A]

Yep. So that was good. So that'll do it for episode five, Marty.

[B]

You got it. All right.

[A]

Listeners can go to baymondiscipleship.com to get in touch with us to see what we're up to to see where we might show up next. But yeah, thank you for joining us on the Bama podcast this week. We will talk to you again very soon.