486: Vice & Virtue — Temperance

Summary

The BEMA Podcast — Episode 486: Vice & Virtue — Temperance

Date: November 20, 2025
Host(s): Brent Billings, Red Dent, Elle Grover Fricks

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Overview

This episode explores the virtue of temperance as part of the ongoing "Vice & Virtue" series, focusing on what temperance truly means in a biblical and practical sense. The hosts blend historical, scriptural, and philosophical perspectives, examining temperance as more than mere self-denial but as the intentional pursuit of balance, moderation, and the ability to "know when to say enough." The conversation is lively and reflective, aiming to reclaim temperance from outdated or narrow definitions and argue for its relevance in every aspect of modern life—including physical desires, ambitions, hobbies, emotions, and even spirituality.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening: The Insatiable Self and the False Promise of Satisfaction

00:15 – 03:06

• Elle Grover Fricks opens with a reading from David Foster Wallace’s essay on cruise ships, highlighting the “insatiable” human desire for more and the myth that ultimate gratification will ever truly satisfy.
  • Quote:
    “The infantile part of me is by its very nature and essence, insatiable... In response to extraordinary gratification, the insatiable infant part... will simply adjust its desires upward until it once again levels out at its homeostasis of terrible dissatisfaction.” (Elle, 01:07, reading Wallace)
• This sets the stage for a discussion of temperance as the antidote to modern excess and endless wanting.

2. Prudence vs. Temperance: Overlapping but Distinct

05:10 – 07:21

• Conversation addresses the overlap between prudence (wisdom in action) and temperance (self-control).
  • Prudence is described as the “ability to discern between when something is true, when something is right and good... the right course of action.”
  • Temperance, on the other hand, is more about managing personal appetites and actions—“controlling myself.”
  • Quote:
    “Temperance could maybe be seen as a kind of subset of prudence... It's about controlling myself.” (Elle, 06:05)

3. Defining Temperance: Beyond "Just Saying No"

07:22 – 11:52

• Elle traces temperance to its Latin roots, meaning “to blend” or “maintain balance between extremes.”
• Not just abstinence or denial, but moderation:
  • “Temperance is not the virtue of never having any fun or just saying no all of the time as a rule. It's not a virtue of denial, but more of a virtue of moderation.” (Elle, 09:37)
• C.S. Lewis on temperance: “not abstaining, but going the right length and no further.”
• Expanding temperance beyond bodily pleasure — encompassing hobbies, work, ambition, and even the way we spend our energy.

4. Practical Challenges: Cultural Expectations & Saying ‘Enough’

11:53 – 13:20, 15:04 – 18:24

• The danger of a culture that always says "more"—especially in youth sports or professional ambition.
• Reference to the Apple maxim: “There's a thousand no's for every yes.” (Brent, 13:20)
• How having margin in life (like the margins on a page) allows for adjustment and healthy living.

5. Temperance vs. Indifference: Avoiding Mediocrity

15:08 – 20:43

• Red raises a concern: Does advocating temperance become an excuse for not fully committing to anything, leading to passivity or mediocrity?
• Elle responds: True temperance isn’t half-hearted; it’s knowing your real limits and inviting other virtues in—like courage and commitment.
  • Quote:
    “A life of extreme solo focus on temperance can actually look really... bland. But what happens when, alongside temperance, I also have to consider the virtue of courage or the virtue of justice or... hope or faith?” (Elle, 17:26)

6. Interdependence of Virtues & Limits

20:44 – 22:33

• Temperance means responding to your actual limits, not quitting early.
• The role of community: Sometimes we need others to help us realize our limits or see when more is possible.

7. Embodied Virtue: Temperance and Being Human

22:34 – 27:16

• Discussion of Aquinas’ ranking of virtues (courage and justice as “greater” than temperance) and a pushback: Temperance is essential due to our embodied nature.
  • Quote:
    “If the idea behind Sabbath is that we are supposed to be recalled to something fundamentally true about being human—linked to what we do with our bodies—then temperance is actually a really important virtue.” (Elle, 25:51)
• Intemperance can dehumanize; when our appetites control us, we become “less than what God intends us to be.”

8. Temperance in Scripture: Insights from Proverbs

27:16 – 33:55

• Proverbs 25: Self-control is compared to strong city walls; lacking it is being “defenseless.”
  • “Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self-control.” (Brent, 27:59)
  • Hebrew nuance: “To restrain your spirit”—an internal, intimate self-limiting.
• Proverbs 16: “Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city.” (Brent, 30:57)
  • Hebrew nuance: “Person with a long nose” (slow to anger), ruling one’s own spirit.
  • “To be somebody who has temperance is to be able to limit or control, again, your spirit... because this actually is the way to flourishing.” (Elle, 32:23)
• Emotions and temperance: Just because you have strong emotions doesn’t mean you should always fully express them.

9. How to Develop Temperance: The ‘Secret’ of Contentment and Focus

33:55 – 41:47

• Philippians 4: Paul’s secret is to be content in every situation—"I can do all this through him who gives me strength."
• Elle and Red discuss the difference between external management (“building a cage around myself”) versus internal orientation (“the one thing,” as Paul advocates).
  • Quote:
    “If I can walk into a room and say, it doesn’t matter—all I’m focusing on is I want to be walking in self-sacrificial service and love right now, because that’s my value... everything else is okay.” (Red, 39:13)
• Only a deep, gospel-rooted focus creates real temperance; practical tips alone are not enough.

10. Practical Steps: Crossover of Discipline

42:05 – 44:57

• Building self-control in any area can strengthen temperance elsewhere. Example: Elle’s friend Megan developed discipline for prayer by first mastering the habit of running.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On moderation, not abstinence:
  “Temperance... meant not abstaining, but going the right length and no further... knowing when to say ‘enough.’”
  — Elle (09:37, paraphrasing C.S. Lewis)

• On the interplay of virtues:
  “You need to say yes to something and actually commit to it, but you also need to say no to something, and whatever you say, like, commit to that.”
  — Brent (21:28)

• On internal restraint:
  “The restraint of the spirit is much more intimate than just, like, your actions.”
  — Elle (29:42)

• Red on what true focus looks like:
  “Let that one yes shape everything else and not be seeking out the honey that’s on the knife.” (40:15)

• On temperance being more than balance:
  “The further you get to the extremes of either doing everything or doing nothing, the less and less we look like the people that God actually intends us to be.”
  — Elle (26:04)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:15 — Opening: The insatiable self (David Foster Wallace reading)
• 05:10 — Temperance vs. Prudence: What’s the difference?
• 07:22 — Defining temperance and its Latin origins; temperance as moderation
• 11:53 — Applications beyond physical appetites; work, sports, life margins
• 15:08 — Are we just promoting mediocrity? The need for conviction and ‘yes’
• 20:44 — Community, limits, and the role of others in knowing “enough”
• 22:34 — Is temperance a lesser virtue? The argument for its importance
• 27:16 — Temperance in Proverbs: Self-control and the image of city walls
• 33:55 — Philippians 4: Contentment and the “secret” to self-control
• 41:47 — Practical tip: Building discipline in one area to strengthen others
• 45:44 — Self-examination questions (practical application)

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Reflection & Application

Self-Examination Questions (read at 45:44)

• Do I drive my appetites, or do my appetites drive me?
• Do I value pleasure and comfort more than satisfaction and meaning?
• Do I have regular rhythms of living, celebrating, and observing that encourage knowing when to say enough?
• In what areas of my life am I unable to attain self-control?
• Are there other areas I could start developing it first?

Resource Recommendation

Dedicated: The Case for Commitment in an Age of Infinite Browsing
— Pete Davis (Red, 46:39)
A secular-but-biblically-minded book on the power of saying “yes” to one thing and practicing commitment.

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Tone & Style

The hosts are self-aware, humorous, and transparently thoughtful, trading meta-jokes with genuine wrestling over both culture and scripture. The discussion is candid about their own struggles with temperance and provides perspective both for those new to the concept and seasoned listeners.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a robust understanding of temperance in faith, work, relationships, and self-development.

Transcript

[Red Dent]

Foreign.

[Brent Billings]

This is the Baywall Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Red Dent and Elle Grover Fricks to talk about temperance.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

In 1996, David Foster Wallace published an essay, a mammoth, really long essay about going on a cruise. Have either of you ever been on a cruise?

[Brent Billings]

Yes, once. I would not recommend the cruise that I was on.

[Red Dent]

I was so upset at the spiritual state of the cruisers that I memorized Romans 8 furiously. I was a teenager.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Did you memorize it on the cruise?

[Red Dent]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Wow.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, there's that insufferability again. There it is, which I can point out because I'm sure that would also have been me if I had gone on a cruise, but I never went on one. But anyway, actually, given that, I would love to get your thoughts on this essay sometime, but I'm going to read a longish paragraph he's been writing just about the details of all the pampering and all of the excessive everything. And this is not to hate on anybody who has gone on cruises or enjoys cruises. This is just for your consideration. And he writes, we're maybe now in a position to appreciate the falsehood at the dark heart of the Luxury Cruise Lines brochure for this the promise to sate the part of me that always and only wants is the central fantasy the brochure is selling. The thing to notice is that the real fantasy here isn't that this promise will be kept, but that such a promise is keepable at all. This is a big one, this lie. It might well be the big one, come to think of it. And of course I want to believe it. I want to believe that maybe this ultimate fantasy vacation will be enough pampering, that this time the luxury and pleasure will be so completely and faultlessly administered that my infantile part will be sated at last. But the infantile part of me is by its very nature and essence, insatiable. In fact, its whole raison consists of its insatiability. In response to any environment of extraordinary gratification and pampering, the insatiable infant part of me will simply adjust its desires upward until it once again levels out at its homeostasis of terrible dissatisfaction. And our daily beakner, prudence and temperance, taken separately, may not be apt to get you to your feet. CHEERING but when they go together, as they almost always do, that's a different matter. The chain smoker or the junkie, for instance, who exemplifies both by managing to kick the habit, can very well have you throwing your hat in the air. Especially if it happens to be somebody whom, for personal reasons, you'd like to have around a few years longer. And the courage involved isn't likely to leave you cold either. Often it's the habit kickers variety that seems the most courageous.

[Red Dent]

So strong cold open, Reid.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Thank you. Well, I mean, it's not really. It's just Beechner and dfw. How could it not be strong? I mean, those two. Are you kidding me?

[Red Dent]

We should hang up the call right now, lest we besmirch the glory of the cold open.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I mean, I 1000% agree with you. And if I had my way, then every one of these episodes would just be the cold open. And then people can just think about that. I mean, when we recorded last, Brent, the. Was it the Prudence episode and the end was just read the beginning thing again?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Anyway, I hate to say it, Brent, but we're back in the King's English again.

[Brent Billings]

I don't feel it as much with this word, though, for some reason.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Temperance is something that you go around. You bandy that word about with Maggie.

[Brent Billings]

And I mean, no, not really, but it just doesn't feel as foreign to me as Prudence does.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, that's fair. And vainglory. I mean, that one is really like. Nobody's using that word. Although I hope after listening to the episode, we can make a case for bringing it back into.

[Brent Billings]

I commented on our social media post about that episode and I was like, reid's bringing back Vainglory? Come on, guys. And then no other comments. So I did my best.

[Red Dent]

But was that a vainglorious attempt?

[Brent Billings]

It was a genuine attempt to actually accomplish what Reid is trying to do here, but it didn't work.

[Red Dent]

We've got to have more babies. And then we've got to resurrect the puritan trend of naming your babies like the virtues, right?

[Brent Billings]

Baby Prudence, baby Temperance, my baby Vainglory.

[Red Dent]

That's a bias, friend. I don't know if you've been paying attention.

[Brent Billings]

Could be a good name for a verse board.

[Red Dent]

Shots fired.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

There's a student at CCF right now whose name is Peace and their siblings names are Truth and Grace, and the brother is Truth. And I'm like, dang, that's a strong name. Just to. What's your name? Truth.

[Red Dent]

Not even in, like, Greek.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I respect it. Brent, do you want to talk a little bit about just a very brief thing about the relationship between Prudence and Temperance? Because last week when we were talking about it, you were saying that the two get easily confused in your mind.

[Brent Billings]

I guess maybe not as much confused, but I just feel like the working out of either one of them. You could almost apply either one of these things to a lot of the same situations, which I guess Beekner kind of speaks to a little bit.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah. I mean, I think that if anything, temperance could maybe be seen as a kind of subset of prudence.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So if. If prudence is, you know, as we talked about wisdom, the ability to discern between when something is true, when something is right and good, like, what's the right course of action here? Temperance, I guess, requires a kind of discernment and involves like an oscillate or not an oscillating, but an existing between two kind of poles in the same way that wisdom does. They both have. When we talked about prudence, we talked about the idea of that tension between. I was quoting, what was that movie, First Reformed, where he talks about the tension between hope and despair. And temperance also is kind of about attention. Right. About how much is okay, which is not too little or too much. But I think maybe if there's the practical working out or difference is that. And this is a little bit of a gross categorization, I think, but temperance is often just about my own particular behavior and appetites. It's about controlling myself. And while prudence may also live in that arena, it can be maybe broader than that is how I would kind of distinguish them.

[Brent Billings]

Seems fair to me.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Elle was nodding along. I don't know if you're wanting to jump in on that.

[Red Dent]

Yeah, I think when I think about temperance, it's like from pre Prohibition, the temperance movement. And that was all about getting, can we enforce self control because alcohol is damaging our society, our communities, our relationships, et cetera. Versus when I think of prudence, though I haven't heard that one, hasn't come out yet when we're recording. So I don't know what y' all said, but when I think of prudence, it's more interpersonal rather than intrapersonal. Right. About like, is it prudent to say this, to contribute in this way, to say this or not say this, et cetera.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I had a note that I actually took out, but I'm glad you brought it up. That was about that very thing. How wisdom or prudence has an interpersonal, communal sort of thing to it. And temperance, I think it does by extension, like the way that I control myself then has ripple effects out into the community. But it is mostly intrapersonal, like you said. So I'm glad you brought that up. The word temperance, from the Latin, which I will butcher the pronunciation here, but temporare, which. Which just means actually to blend or to mix, that is especially in order to maintain a kind of a balance. And so when I just did a brief, like Google and looking at some older ancient stuff, not ancient, but older stuff, it talks about like weather, like hot and cold, the blending of the seasons, they that temporary is the word that's used. Or when you would mix water and wine to temper, you're blending them so as to achieve a kind of balance where if you have too much wine, then you get drunk too early or, you know, you waste all the good stuff and then too much water, it's just. It's just lifeless and not very satisfying. And so to achieve the right balance, you need to have a blend that exists somewhere in between two, like extremes. If you think about our episodes on some of the vices, especially the earlier ones, talking about lust, talking about gluttony, talking about greed, all of those really are just a way of describing generally intemperance going to the extreme, right? So it's. Those are. Those are unmixed. It's unbalanced. If you are living out of the vice of greed or lust or gluttony, then it is definitionally just an unbalanced or like what David Foster Wallace was getting at, where what want, like what you want just becomes absolute and the quest for pleasure through those various avenues becomes total. And so temperance at its, like most basic level is maybe a way of saying it is. It's kind of like the virtue of just keeping things in check. And there is. You think about temperance movement and CS Lewis writes about it thinking as a kind of teetotalism, where I think that is like temperance taken to the extreme. Like, I don't think temperance is meant to be just the virtue of never having any fun or the virtue of just saying no all of the time as a rule. So it's not like a virtue of denial, but more of a virtue of moderation. And so like in Bama words, I think we would say that temperance is the virtue of knowing when to say enough to take us back to that old deep cut. You know, that episode that people have referenced a gajillion times, episode two, great episode of knowing when to say enough. And where I want to encourage us to think or to maybe expand our horizons, if we have any familiarity with the virtue of temperance, is to then go beyond just the sort of carnal pleasures and carnal nature of it. C.S. lewis, who obviously agreeing with Bema in mere Christianity.

[Brent Billings]

That's right. That's right. That's the order of operations he's talking about.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

In its original sense, temperance referred not specially to drink, but to all pleasures. And it meant not abstaining, but going the right length and no further. So obviously Clive would have been a big knowing when to say enough guy. Maybe he would have got it tatted, like on, you know, his shoulder or something.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Don't tell me that there aren't people out there, Bama fans who've got some kind of Bamaism tatted.

[Red Dent]

Oh, I know it because they want to do it in Hebrew and they email me to make sure it's correct. Of which. Oh, who's done that here? Oh, would that be. Oh, that would be James Reed Dent.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, I have not a. Not a Bama ism. I was not asking you. How do you say this thing that Marty said, but in Hebrew so I can get Marty's words tattooed on my body?

[Red Dent]

Sounds like the beginning of a beautiful adventure.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I'll check in with you the next time I want to get a tattoo.

[Red Dent]

About whether I'll out you on the podcast.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, no, that's great. I don't got no problem with that. How do I get Marty's terrible bangles takes in Hebrew on my. Tattooed on my body.

[Red Dent]

Perfect. Gotta bring that with you into the world to come.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

This has gone awry. But I. I want to encourage thinking about temperance, even just beyond things of the body, even just beyond pleasures.

[Red Dent]

Sure.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And how do we live tempered lives regarding our energy and our action, so all of our endeavors. Maybe we are people who think in terms of moderation with the appetites of the body. Drink, food, sex. But like, are we people who consider living virtuous, tempered lives in terms of like our hobbies? What about in terms of our work, our money making capacities, working out, dieting, sleeping. I kept thinking about youth sports here because my kids are all just. They're athletes and they compete in things. And I have often found it is hard to kick against the goads in a culture where it seems like it is only ever yes to everything, especially like more tournaments, more leagues. I don't know if it's always been that way. It feels to me like a little bit more of an acute. And maybe this is a midwestern thing. I don't know how it is where you guys are, but especially specifically surrounding this culture of like youth athletics. It's like you can never say yes enough, and it's in the name of you want to give your kids opportunities and all that kind of thing. But it quickly leads to, like, everything is out of control and all of these other ripple effects that are harmful in life generally.

[Red Dent]

Totally.

[Brent Billings]

Apple opened their developer conference in 2013 with a video that I think about all the time, and it's talking about focusing on things. And there's a line in it that I think is probably the most famous line of it as far as what they do. There's a thousand no's for every yes. And I feel like that's. I mean, that's maybe extreme, but I think we could use a little bit more of that sort of balance in a lot of things. Kids, sports. I'm already starting to feel that in.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Some regards and in thinking about every yes actually is necessarily attended by a hundred no's to lots of other things. Like, you got to think of the opportunity cost of if I say yes to these, what is that costing me in terms of other things that might be really good that I now don't have space for because my life does not have margin. Does not have. It's not. It's not tempered. I remember hearing when I was a student at Truman, our campus minister played some sermon for us that I can't remember now, who gave it, but just talked about having marginal space in our lives in the same way that a paper needs margins, because, like, you could in theory write from one edge of the page all the way to the other, which can work so long as you don't have to make any adjustments or you don't have to make any notes or edits. Right?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And if you have no margin, then you have no room to be able to make those changes. And so, yeah, just thinking about a tempered life as one with. It's. It's okay. I know in the culture it seems like a sin to not be busy all the time, but tempered lifestyles mean sometimes you actually don't have anything to do with your time pressing at this immediate moment. Yes, Al, I see that hand.

[Brent Billings]

Ls asking us to temper our comments and let her speak.

[Red Dent]

Temper your thoughts on temperance. Okay. I have an objection, your honor.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay.

[Red Dent]

And I want you to help me with it because the wheels are turning in here and I'm, I. It feels very bamay. I'm on board. And also I've noticed some things in the culture and the zeitgeist, in my community and myself that make it seem like it's just all too like. Yeah, let's just don't go overboard. You know, if I think about temperance and I think about the Greeks talking about temperance, it's like the scales or it's like a blade. You have to temper a blade and if you overdo it, it'll break or your chocolate will split. The Greeks were always eating chocolate. That's not true. That's a joke.

[Brent Billings]

Come on, baby. Alexander the Great for a reason.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Keep going. This is a great thought.

[Red Dent]

So what it makes me think of in our society or the what about this that comes to my mind is that there is a lack of committedness. There is a lack of willing to be dedicated to any thing in our society. Right. It's always like, that's cringe, like, don't go too hard after anything. That ends up being a manifestation of pride. Right. Like, I'm going to keep myself in safe deposit. But the way that expresses itself is like, don't run too hard. Don't do too much, like, self care, baby. And absolutely, like, I'm not great at temperance. That's one of the reasons I'm here. Right. Is I'm the person who gets sick because I'm working too hard or working out too much and I have to work on my boundaries and all sorts of stuff. But I do believe that when we're choosing what we say yes to, we are choosing to say, this is something worth living for. This is something worth dying for. Is this worth my life? And once we say yes to that, then I want to run the race to which we're called. Right. And so can you talk about the. I did not warn you that I was going to bring this up. I'm so sorry.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

No, this is a great question and I love this line of thinking. I'm really glad that you brought it up.

[Red Dent]

Yeah. So what's like, balance or the tension between being all in on the one thing and yet still cultivating this idea of temperance, of not over. Over splitting our chocolate or our blade or whatever.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. We've talked in other episodes about how the virtues need to inform each other. Like, it's not. And if you only have. If you. If you have all of one virtue and it's not colored by other virtues, then you actually often end up with something that is more bad than good. And so, like, a life of extreme solo focus on temperance can actually look really kind of milquetoast, really bland. Right, right. But what happens when, alongside temperance, I also have to consider, like, the virtue of courage or the virtue of justice or the virtue of hope or faith. And now there may be times where I am actually called to. Just because I live a tempered life does not mean that it's an easy life.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Doesn't mean that it's a life without some kind of striving in a. In a positive sense for something that is worth striving for.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Even when we commit to something and go full bore, like, we still have sort of a. An unshakable fundamental principle of, like, Sabbath, right. Where we work six days a week and we go hard, and then we have to temper that back and have a day where we are resting.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And we're not going for it, you know? But I think the caricature that you're pointing out, that's a dangerous one, is kind of like the. I'm thinking of the dude from the Big Lebowski, right? Who's, like, completely moderated and tempered in all things. Like, doesn't ever get riled, doesn't.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

You know, he. He just kind of, like, hangs out in his bathrobe and, like, really loves the area rug in his apartment. And it's like a. A tempered life is. Could. Could really quickly become sort of an impotent life or a cowardly life.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And so, yeah, I would just say to anybody who might take that to an extreme, okay, well, what happens when we bring the other virtues in to inform how we're living?

[Red Dent]

That's a good invitation. Would you say that there's a difference between being temperate and just going 50%, you know, 50% at the workplace? 50% of the time I go to church. That seems fine. 50% of the time, I, you know, make space for God through practices, whatever.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah. I would say there's a difference. And I. I think part of this is so, you know, there is an old saying, know thyself, which is, know your limits. And when you reach a limit, then it's time to let temperance come in and say, okay, enough is enough. It's time for a break. It's time to rest. But what you're describing is somebody who hasn't actually reached their limit yet.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And they're just kind of giving up early, you know?

[Red Dent]

Yes.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And so I would say temperance is the thing that comes in, and it's like, okay, you've been running really hard, and, like, you're going to injure yourself if you don't stop and hydrate or stretch or rest, like, to use a track metaphor.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Does that make sense?

[Red Dent]

Yes.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Whereas the bad version of temperance would be like, you're 50 meters into the 100 meter dash and you're like, ah, I think I'm just gonna kind of like ease up. And it's like you're gonna lose the race. Like, what are you doing? Like, you. This is not the best you can do.

[Red Dent]

That's so good.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But yeah, I think there's always that tension of like, the best I can do and like the most I can do and just having like a sober, I guess, analysis of that.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And I think this too is again, like, there is always a community living aspect to all of these virtues and vices where maybe somebody. This is why we have trainers too, right? Where they're like, you think you're at your limit, but you actually can go farther and it's good to push you. And maybe that requires courage or maybe that requires faith, but we need to push you forward into that. But there are some people we sometimes we need. Others of us need people to say like, you're way beyond your limit and this is hurting you in a way that you don't realize. You know, I love that.

[Red Dent]

Thank you for the clarification.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I would say it's a thousand no's for every yes, not a thousand no's for every maybe you're still supposed to commit to something, like to bring Jesus into it. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. You've got to say yes to something and actually commit to it, but you also need to say no to something and whatever you say, like, commit to that. And then on the community aspect, I was thinking of the idea of collecting the mana and it's like at the end of the day, the community had enough for everybody, but it's like there's no way that every single person was collecting exactly the amount that they needed. Right. I mean, maybe, maybe that's the miracle, but maybe the miracle is like, oh, some of the community was stronger and collected more, some wasn't able to collect enough, but then they had exactly what they needed because they were a good community.

[Red Dent]

That's good. If you never lift to failure, you'll never know where your reps in reserve are because maximum Hypertrophy comes at three or two reps in reserve. But if you think it's six and it's actually 12, you'll never know.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Go. L. Go, no, I think that's great. I think that's great. I'm thinking of actually that calls to mind just another little rabbit trail from the screw. Is this the screwtape letters or is it mere Christianity? I've been back into Lewis through this series because he just fits into this whole arena so well. But talking about like somebody who lays down, like when a strong wind comes, doesn't actually understand like the force of that wind because they're just kind of giving up. And only when you actually stand up and push against it, like, do you actually know. And so I don't know if that's super relevant to temperance. That's just where my brain went. Thinking about, you know, knowing your limits, you can, I don't know, you can do hard things is like, what, what I want to tell somebody who's like, too, too leaning into, like, let's just like temperance, bro. Like, let's just chill. I don't know. There was a. Another interesting little side note here is that I was reading this book that I referenced a few times, the Cardinal and the Deadly by Carl Clifton Soderstrom, and he talks about Aquinas. And Aquinas actually thought that temperance was sort of a lesser virtue. What Soderstrom says is that Aquinas thought that courage and justice were more admirable than temperance, and wisdom was more necessary than temperance. Because temperance, I think he was mostly thinking about it just in terms of appetites of the body, that if it's just about what you eat and drink, then it's not as important as like wisdom, you know, or courage, like these sort of so called spiritual virtues. And while I think it's true that, you know, the, the person of temperance is not really the quintessential hero type, like courage is like the, you think of somebody who is courageous and you're like, that's the hero. I'm going to follow them into battle. And the person who has temperance is like, I don't know, they're, they're at home, like living a nice, respectable, like moderated lifestyle. But here's the thing. If we think of our whole life as actually our existence is embodied, like the body and the soul are completely intertwined. And even thinking about Sabbath, right, Like Sabbath is important for us. It's important for us to physically, actually rest and cease labor because our existence is embodied. And if the idea behind Sabbath is that we are supposed to be recalled to something that is fundamentally true about being human, and that being recalled to that fundamental truth is specifically like, linked to what we do with our bodies, then I would say that temperance is actually a really important virtue because it's about what we do with our bodies, what we eat with them, how we work with them, the extent to which we do all of that. But the point is not just like reaching a happy medium, because a happy medium is just inherently like, good in and of itself, but because I think the further you get to the extremes of either doing everything or doing nothing, like, the less and less we look like the people that God actually intends us to be. So my practice of temperance towards drink, for example, to the extent that I practice that, the idea is that it engages something essential about being human for me. And if I don't, then, like, the. The. The person who is intemperate, who. Like, it's not just that you're becoming more drunk when you drink too much, but in a way, less human. And I was thinking about why that is, and I. I was. I recalled several times to Jesus the question that he asked about Sabbath and whether Sabbath is for man or man is for the Sabbath. And I think an intemperate life is one that, like, the things. Things control you rather than the other way around. And that is not just bad habits and bad ways of living. It's also you become less than what God intends you to be. God intends us to be like, as image bearers. I think the people who are controlling the things rather than are controlled by the things make sense.

[Red Dent]

Totally.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Again, I appreciate much of what Aquinas contributes to the conversation on vices and virtues and human nature. I would say, as we remember the intertwined, like, singular nature of body and soul, then I don't think that temperance becomes a lesser virtue. I think it exists right alongside all of those other ones. And probably, like, the more intemperate you become regarding, you know, your appetites, probably the less courageous you become as well, you know, and the less wise you become and the less a person of justice, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so let's get into the text conversation a little bit.

[Red Dent]

What. What's that?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It's called the Bible. L. The Word of the Lord.

[Brent Billings]

Wow.

[Red Dent]

Okay. I'll Google it.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That's why I did this series, so I could get away from the Bible. No, I'm just kidding. I like the Bible, you guys.

[Red Dent]

We're in prayer for you.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Elle, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. We texted about it yesterday, and I was like, well, there's not, like, the. I don't know where the word temperance comes up. Self control is maybe the. The translation that I went looking for, and it doesn't come up a ton. In the Hebrew scriptures. There are a couple of proverbs where it pops Up. Brent, can you go ahead and read the first 1 from Proverbs 25 there?

[Brent Billings]

It is not good to eat too much honey. Nor is it honorable to search out matters that are too deep. Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self control.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, well, so first of all, just brief aside, this does feel like it goes right along with what we were just talking about, that eating too much honey and also searching out matters that are too deep. Those both are areas that are affected by temperance. And the idea to, like, know when to say enough applies not just to what you eat, but how much are you trying to know? How much are you trying to be certain about? And so for enneagram fives like me, it's probably helpful to be told, like, yeah, you need to know when to say enough on your quest for knowledge. Forgive me, Lord, have mercy. El, can you highlight anything for us about this Person who lacks self control.

[Red Dent]

Is a word that means to restrain or shut up or be enclosed. So most of the time that we see it in scripture, it has to do with the heavens have been shut up right after the flood or a lot of. There's a lot of idioms for fertility with God has closed the wombs of the women in Avimelech's house at household. So that's usually where we see it. And so here instead, it's, do you have the capacity to hold back? And if you don't have the capacity for holding back, then you are a person without walls, which totally tracks.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

What is it in the Hebrew that is being restrained?

[Red Dent]

It's in his spirit.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It's a. Yeah, okay.

[Brent Billings]

Is there something to the inversion of this? Like, a city whose walls are broken through? How do you expect a city's walls to be broken from the outside when it's under attack from a third party? But then in this case, it's a person who lacks self control. You're breaking the walls from the inside. It's like, what are you even doing to yourself?

[Red Dent]

Yeah. In your spirit?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I think that the restraint of the spirit is just an interesting way to convey this to me because it seems to be much more, like, intimate than just, like, your actions. Right. This is like, the spirit needs to be restrained.

[Red Dent]

Yeah. You're talking to yourself and saying hold.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah. Which is probably a helpful, like, counter word to a culture that can go too far with just, like, live your truth and you be you. And you can like, caricaturize those ideas to the point where nobody can ever tell you no about your own self.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But I think the wisdom of the proverb is that, like, your own self, like, what you think of as the deep part of your being can definitely, like, go awry if unchecked. And I do think it's interesting, Brent, that you're destroying the walls from the inside out in that, like, you do that initial destruction, and then you are laid defenseless to whatever might come from without.

[Red Dent]

Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Because you have not restrained yourself from within.

[Red Dent]

Yeah, there's that saying that it's a lot easier to wrap your feet in leather than to walk across a thorny, spiky ground and be like, ah. Something. Stop.

[Brent Billings]

Ah.

[Red Dent]

Why are you hurting me?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, let's look at the next one. This is from Proverbs 16, Brent.

[Brent Billings]

Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self control than one who takes a city.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, also, how is the. How is the. The Hebrew for the self control? How is this different here from the previous one?

[Red Dent]

This is great. First off, it's not patient. It's a person with a long nose, which is an idiom for anger. So it's really slow to anger more than patience. Better is it to be a person slow to anger than a her who. And then I see you've put in the notes here, this thing that means to rule, to have dominion is often how it's translated, though I have questions about that choice. And then ruach. So to rule over yourself. Yeah, that's what it says in the Hebrew. So it's different. The last one has to do with restraining versus when I think about ruling, it's more complex than that. Right. It's like, I'll give this many resources in this direction, but not in this direction.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah. And I would. Maybe you can check me if I'm going too far here, but to rule or to have dominion in the way that I think we're called to as image bearers, is you're allocating those resources, like you're saying here, not there. But if you are the ruler over, you know, the land or the kingdom, then the idea that you have in mind and imposing those limits is ultimately for the flourishing of, like, whatever your dominion is.

[Red Dent]

Yes, that's good.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And so to use our word temperance here, to be somebody who has temperance is to be able to limit or control, again, your spirit like your own inner self, not because you are just being really uptight and don't want to have any fun, but because this actually is the way to flourishing. Like, it requires saying no and yes to this and no to that, and restraints and boundaries and all of that.

[Red Dent]

Yeah, pretty countercultural.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It's interesting that you bring up the thing about the long nose and that being an idiom for a person who doesn't get angry quickly. Because the person who doesn't get angry quickly is like, in parallelism here in this proverb is the person who is able to rule, rule their own self, their own spirit. And so even just maybe for some people, it might be a good or challenging word to think about what it means to apply temperance to your own emotions. So again, full disclosure, enneagram5person here.

[Red Dent]

And so you don't have any emotions.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. And yet, like, it also is. Maybe we need to check the cultural sensibility that says, yeah, whatever emotion you have, just free reign, full expression, like, let it out. And like, that can only ever be a good thing in the name of self expression. Maybe the person actually who is able to restrain that and have temperance over the proper, like, extent to which we express emotions or the proper arena in which we express them, there might be something to consider there.

[Red Dent]

Totally.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, so this next section, I guess it just comes out of a question of how do we do this? Like, if we understand that temperance is maybe at a deeper level, the ability to rule over your own spirit, your own self. To say kind of this far and no farther. Like, I get that. That's what it is, but how. How is that done? And this reminds me of I have this section here from Philippians 4, which is something that a lot of people know. Brent, can you. Can you read this?

[Brent Billings]

I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I'm not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I mean, I'm not trying to Jesus juke people here with. I can do all things through him who gives me strength. But so this sounds a little bit like what's being described as a kind of temperance life experience, right? Or style, where it's like, I can live with a lot or with a little, and I. I know how to be content living between those extremes or even at either extreme. But when he says, like, I've learned the Secret of being content in any and every situation. The question what. What is the actual secret like? Because to me, being content sounds like a kind of self control. Like it is a kind of ruling over the self. So L. Please tell me, what's the secret?

[Red Dent]

Two things come to mind. And the first one is less significant, but is a circle back to the Hebrew Bible. The idea of having the long nose is because the words, some of them. There's a lot of words for anger in Hebrew, which is interesting in and of itself, way more than we have in English, where it's just like wrath, fury, anger. And that's it pretty much is that it's about the amount of time that it takes for your breath to get from your respiratory tract to outside your nose. Because it's about like, it's the emoji of a lot of air coming out of the nose. And that goes together really well with the conversation of the next word with ruach, because ruach is spirit, but it's also wind. So if you're slow to anger, it means that you are in control of your breath, right? Your breath is regulated. And so that's a really practical thing, right? If you were like, I think I do have anger issues or whatever, how do I even start working on that? Like, the breath is a great place to start stopping and taking deep breaths. That's kind of an aside, that's fun to me in the Hebrew and then potentially practical. But I don't think that's what Paul is talking about. I don't think he's like, tumor mindful breathing, you guys. I don't think that's what helps him be like, yes, to live is Christ, to die is Cain.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Might help, but is not the point.

[Red Dent]

Right? Here's what I think the actual point is. When I hear self control, I enter a part of my brain which is not awesome. So if I. Not to say that self control is bad, but this is what happens in my mind, which has been trained and conservative Christian spaces, is if I'm about to go into a situation, maybe I'm nervous about it because I have to be a good leader or good follower. I'm trying to find belonging. I'm not sure if I will. It's one of my tendencies to be like, okay, I'm going to have good self control. I might not use that word, but I'm like, I'm not going to talk too much, I'm not going to talk too little. I'm going to make sure that I honor everybody. Whatever. I have like A list of things that quantifies what good self control will look like for me. And I end up like building this cage around myself. That's like similar to vainglory, right? This is how I want to be perceived by everyone. And I'm so in control of what I'm doing and I'm not like breaking that facade. And then of course I end up doing so and then being like, oh dang, I said the one thing I wasn't supposed to or I talked too loud or whatever. And then I start beating myself up criticizing, which doesn't help anything, versus having the one thing. Right. I think there's a difference between management and I don't think that all of that image is bad. All of the ruling self is bad. It's in the scripture. But I think there's a difference between as a leader being like, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. Don't do that, do do this. And saying, what are we about? We are about this one thing. If we can. If I again going back to this analogy or story about my personal neuroses, if I can walk into a room and say it doesn't matter, all I'm focusing on is I want to be walking in self sacrificial service and love right now, because that's my value that I have married myself to that I'm running that race and everything else is okay or even better if I'm able to do a practice like worship where I recall that it's not me like clenching hard enough that causes me to become more gracelike and more sanctified, but rather being at the foot of the cross, experiencing the love of God, breathing in that humility, that gratitude that saturates me with a groundedness and a security and a humility that is going to have an effect of temperance or an effect of courage or joy or justice or whatever we're chasing so much better than me, like having a list in the back of my head. So my potential answer to what could Paul's secret be that I think shows up in Philippians is that he has a one thing right. Yes. The one thing that he's chasing and that is his focus and he is defining everything by that. Yes. Like the gospel of apple that Brent brought us this morning. We have our one yes, we have a thousand nos. Let that one yes shape everything else and not be seeking out the honey that's on the knife. Right? Of like, oh, this will feel good if I say this like really clever thing or really funny Thing or whatever, people will all be in awe of me. That's just like, even if you succeed, which good luck, it ends up being this destructive thing where then you want more and more and more and then your tongue is bleeding, et cetera.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That sounds like just a really wonderful and thoughtful and like way below the surface way of thinking about I can do all things through him who gives me strength. Because like when I think about what else Paul has said about Christ earlier in Philippians, that like what strength looks like is actually limitation, is actually weakness is actually pouring out. And so like what you said about like if I can, if my one thing can be about having this one mind, which is of Christ, which is that like I am here to serve in self sacrificial love and let that be the thing that I say yes to and let that then have the effect of temperance, which I mean, just to get really Christocentric here is probably something that we should just say in every episode of the Virtues, which is like there are practical ways to pursue the virtues. And then underneath it is like, what is the one thing that I am trying to say yes to? That then has the effect of, of virtue, of virtue, that has the effect of temperance, that has the effect of courage, justice and all the rest. And maybe that would be like Paul's one thing. So super appreciate what you just had to say. That's like yay. That's connecting some dots.

[Red Dent]

I was awoken. I don't know if that's good English. You can tell me at 5am this morning with that thought in my notes. Thank you. I was awakened with that thought that I put in my notes, apparently specifically about, you know, how you're an idiot sometimes when you go places and you're like trying to do a good job.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yay. Okay, well, I mean there's a little bit else that we could say, although I feel like that's actually not a terrible place to let the conversation rest to come to its tempered Sabbath. I guess the, the one practical thing I have found helpful. So I used to work with Megan and Megan was women's minister at CCF for a long time and really close friend, really wonderful minister. And I remember she was going through a season where she was having a hard time with the discipline of prayer and being self disciplined about prayer. And so she found that she wasn't really able to attack the problem directly. And so she decided to start going for a run like she would. She would go for runs and learned how to exercise the discipline of making herself get up in the morning and go run for a few miles. And the observation that she had was interesting, and that is that, like the idea of self discipline and self control or living like a life of temperance, like, there's a holistic kind of system within you where, like the ability to exercise discipline or to say enough. So I think about self discipline as being able to say yes. Just this is a. This is a crude definition, but to say yes to what I don't necessarily want, but that's good for me. And self control is the ability to say no to maybe what I do want, but that's not necessarily good for me. And that my ability to exercise self control or self discipline in one area of my life is actually strengthening. It's the same muscle, and it's strengthening it for other areas of life. And so one of the things that she showed me and showed us at CCF was that if you struggle with being so, again, being temperate about one certain thing, what if you start somewhere else and say, okay, where can I develop the virtue of temperance, self control? Where's something easier for me? And so it was easier for her to actually pick up and start running. And then that helped her have the control or the discipline to be able to work out a prayer life. And so then just in all things, maybe it's like a habit or an appetite that's out of control, you know, Or I can never say no to, like, working more, or I can never say no to hobbying more or whatever. The thing is, maybe if it's some other area in life, what Megan would teach us is work on that, let the other thing lie for a while and then see how it affects you. Temperance can be developed elsewhere, and then it bleeds over into the other areas of life. So I just have always found that a very helpful, practical bit of, like, here's how we can approach this. Maybe some listeners will find that approach helpful as well. But beyond that, I think that's about the end of my thoughts on temperance. If either of you have anything else to discuss, I would love to hear it.

[Red Dent]

Thanks, Megan.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, thanks, Megan. Megan had a pet sheep named Alfina when she was growing up, and she grew up in Australia. And I still took it to be that that's not normal even in Australia, to just have a pet sheep. But that was the thing that Megan had. So now the world knows this part of Megan's life.

[Brent Billings]

Is anything normal in Australia? From what I understand, everything there is crazy. I'm trying to convince my wife to go there. I was Like Maggie, there's a lot of BAMAW groups. Like, we gotta go there someday. She's like, too many crazy animals, too many spiders.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

We'll go with you, Brent. If Maggie doesn't want to go party.

[Red Dent]

All right, Temperately.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, totally. Like all the moderation down under.

[Brent Billings]

All right. Should we do some self examination questions, Reid?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, I think it's time for that, Brent.

[Brent Billings]

Okay. Do I drive my appetites or do my appetites drive me? Do I value pleasure and comfort more than satisfaction and meaning? Do I have regular rhythms of living, celebrating, and observing that encourage knowing when to say enough? In what areas of my life am I unable to attain self control? Are there other areas I could start developing it first?

[Red Dent]

Those questions are. I would take like one of those a day and just like think about it for. For the day. It's like an ignition practice. Right. The self examination that sucks and feels like you're getting run over by a tractor. I would like to have a suggested reading resource. Dun dun dun. On someone else's episode.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, let's hear it.

[Red Dent]

Dedicated is a book by Pete Davis. The subtitle is the Case for Commitment in an Age of Infinite Browsing. It's not explicitly Christian. Oh, no. And yet it still has biblical quotes in it, actually. So who knows? I don't know the state of Pete Davis's soul, but it's very good. And it talks about this countercultural can we be people who are dedicated to the one thing? And it's very inspiring. And Ida, I would throw it out into the universe for people to go read.

[Brent Billings]

Beautiful. Well, we have a handful of resources that people can find in the show Notes in their podcast app [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with us. You can do that there as well. But thank you for joining us on the Behemoth podcast today. Wrestling through these questions, taking the time to examine ourselves and see what we can do and move forward and become more Christlike. So thank you again for joining us. We'll talk to you again soon.