B (3:02)

That at the time that we recorded it, we even were. I remember just asking him, like, how much do you want to talk about your own situation? Because he had been diagnosed again by the time that we recorded that, but this was still a little while ago before it felt totally imminent, like, his passing. Yeah, just. Just to think that, like, it's. To hear. To hear his voice again. Talking about that after he is gone is a very, very strange thing. But I know that for. For me and for the hosts.

B (3:40)

That, yeah, this is something that we carry really, really heavily.

B (3:46)

Yeah. That there is just a lot of sadness and a lot of mourning and.

B (3:56)

Missing Josh a lot.

B (3:59)

Not just for what he brings to the podcast or would bring, which he now can no longer bring, but even just into our own lives as friends.

B (4:12)

Yeah, I miss a lot of things about Josh. Miss talking to him a lot.

B (4:21)

I don't even remember if we've commented about this, but people may know. We hop on these recordings and we spend the first time quite a while before we, you know, before we actually start talking about whatever the episode is, just talking about other things, and then it bleeds over after we're finished with the recording. And that was a source of a lot of joy for me personally, because Josh was just such a wonderful, wonderful conversation partner.

B (4:49)

Just a brother and a friend.

A (4:51)

And.

B (4:53)

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what else to say. It just. It's weird. It's very hard that we have to go on now. And everything is. I mean, what we're doing going forward is obviously going to be carrying him with us in some way, but.

B (5:10)

I don't know. Just feels really heavy.

A (5:14)

Yeah. And I'll just say nothing that we're able to do really feels adequate.

A (5:22)

Sophia and their son ronan have a GoFundMe to help them as they.

A (5:30)

Transition into a new home and deal with all of that stuff. And I know that there's a goal set for that, and I think there's a specific idea of what they want to do with those things immediately. But knowing who Sophia is and how long of a road they have ahead of them, I don't really care what the goal is.

A (5:54)

Don't feel like, oh, they have everything they need. I'm sure that there is so much more. And whatever you might choose to give, Sophia is going to use it wisely. I'm totally, totally confident in that. And I also feel like it's the thing that we're called to do, but no matter how much any of us give, it's not adequate to, like, cover this kind of loss.

A (6:22)

Elle recorded an episode of Texting Us. I'll link that. And I know she is yearning to do more. And I. I gathered up a bunch of pictures that I have of Josh and put together a blog post. I'll link that as well. But that, like, I just. I finished it and I'm like, what even is this?

A (6:44)

And I treasure these photos, but I'm like, oh, there are all these moments when I could have taken more. And it's just like all this regret mixed up in it is just. It's a mess. And none of it feels like it's enough. And so.

A (6:56)

Yeah, we're not anywhere close to done with what we have to say, with what we have to do. We're just taking one step at a time, basically.

B (7:04)

Yeah, I look forward to when all of us, you and Elle and Marty and I, when we're able to sit down together and remember Josh, like, I really do look forward to that. And I know also that even then, when we remember him.

B (7:23)

Properly, like, what. I don't even know what enough would be, you know, but it's just. It's gonna be difficult to go forward. I do wanna say that I have been hearing personally from some listeners, people sending messages, just offering their.

B (7:45)

Their prayer and their consolation, and that has meant a lot to me. And so thank you to the people who are just holding us up. I mean, I think people get a sense of, like, the friendship, the camaraderie, like, what we shared between us was way more. Like all of us hosts, I mean, was way more than when just, like, let's be theological discussion partners. Like, there was. There was something much more robust than that. And so thank you to the people who are remembering us and who are offering their comfort. That really does. That does matter too. But, yeah, I mean, I guess we.

B (8:25)

Yeah, we still have episodes still got to go forward.

A (8:30)

You showed me right before we started here that you have a candle burning right now.

B (8:33)

Yeah.

B (8:35)

Yeah. I mean, I was actually thinking about recently, whatever episode it was we were talking about. I think we were talking about temperance, which is like, knowing when to say enough. And Josh was master of that. And he talked about the wisdom of.

B (8:57)

The. I think there was a midrash that just talked about the idea of keeping your own flame, like, burning small so that you wouldn't get burnt out, not trying to tend a massive fire. And, I mean, when I think about Josh's life, it feels like that to me. I mean, he was on the podcast, but outside of that, he had a corner, a small corner of people that he ministered to just by his very presence, you know, and he kept his life simple and manageable and about the right things, about things that are deeply good. And, I mean, I never once, ever in recordings or meetings or when we were together in person. Like, I never felt like Josh was too exhausted to, like, be with me or us together. I mean, and even when he was in the midst of dealing with recovery from, you know, just dealing with the complications of his illness, it was. It was. Yeah. I think he. Because I. It's something about this keeping the flame going and keeping it small, but it's still very bright and. Yeah, that's another thing I really miss about him. I saw your.

B (10:16)

I read your blog post.

B (10:20)

Thanks for posting that. That was really wonderful. There were pictures of. I've never seen Josh as, like, a younger man, like, really young. Like, that first picture of him with the long hair, and he's just laughing.

A (10:34)

Isn't that funny?

B (10:35)

I was like, is that Josh? But then when I looked at his eyes, I was like, oh, yeah, that's Josh. Like, that's definitely him. You know, that's how I met Josh. Am I crazy to think that there's, like, in his. Some of his pictures, ten months later.

A (10:52)

Was his wedding and then he had no hair, almost.

B (10:55)

Yeah. Okay. But, like, am I crazy to think that there is, like, a Jimmy Kimmel thing going on with him, like, kind of a lot in some of those pictures?

A (11:06)

Oh, in his wedding, yeah. Absolutely.

B (11:08)

Yeah. I thought that, like, so much. Right?

A (11:11)

Yeah.

B (11:11)

Or like that picture that you have of him talking to Marty with the stage lights, like, near the top of the post.

A (11:19)

Yeah.

B (11:19)

And he just. He. I was like, holy cow. That could be. That could be Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That straw hat, man. I think about the straw hat all the time. I do. I think about that, and I think about his. Just his, like, Hawaiian shirts and, like, open down to, like, almost his belly button with just the thickest luscious carpet of, like, black chest hair and that. He. He just.

B (11:50)

Like. I was thinking about when you guys were up at Truman, when we had that retreat here, and we went and just walked around campus, and Josh was just out there like he was born to it, you know? I mean, in his chest hair and his sun hat and everything. And it was. It's like, here is somebody who is just so comfortably and authentically himself.

B (12:15)

You know?

C (12:16)

Yeah.

B (12:18)

Not in a way that's like, yeah, bro. Like, I'm so, like, original and, like, not. No, just. Just deeply, genuinely, truly himself. And though. And I don't. There aren't so many people in the world who are like it in the way that Josh is like that. And those kind of people really are. Like, there is a. It is a ministry just of presence. Like, when they are around you. It is like, man, I just. You don't even have to say anything to Me. And I feel uplifted. I feel ministered to. You know what I mean? Yeah. That was Josh.

A (13:06)

So with that feeling very awkward and inadequate, we move into our regular episode.

A (13:22)

This is the Bayw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are with Reed Dent to discuss courage.

B (13:29)

Wow. Just like that, huh?

A (13:30)

We're getting into it.

B (13:31)

Okay. Getting my notes ready here.

B (13:36)

Is that actually our start?

A (13:37)

Yeah, I'm ready. I'm in it. We're going, man.

B (13:39)

All right. Okay, okay, okay.

A (13:40)

You guys weren't ready. Were you talking about football or something? I don't. I couldn't. I tuned it out.

C (13:45)

I'm not sure.

B (13:45)

No, no, no, I'm ready. I have so much courage for the upcoming season. But our cold open is not about the NFL. It's a prayer. And let me just let you into a little, you know, peek behind the curtain of life at Dent Manor. We are not above bribing our children to do things. And so every summer for the last three summers, I think it's been, we have made them a deal and said, if you will memorize a poem and write it in beautiful cursive, then we will buy you a pair of shoes you want at the end of the summer. But you have to have it, like, you know, buried deep in there. And this year, a couple years ago, they did a Mary Oliver poem, when I am among the Trees. Last year, they did a Wendell Berry poem that is called the Peace of Wild Things. And this year we did a prayer kind of poem from Padre Gautuma. Some people may be familiar with him. He's a poet. He's got a podcast called Poetry Unbound. He also writes prayer liturgies and books, and he has a prayer called the Prayer for Courage. And this has been a prayer that we have prayed in Leanne especially. I mean, this has been a daily prayer for her for the last two years. And it goes like this. Courage comes from the heart, and we are always welcomed by God, the heart of all being. We bear witness to our faith, knowing that we are called to live lives of courage, love, and reconciliation in the ordinary and extraordinary moments of each day. We bear witness, too, to our failures and our complicity in the fractures of our world. May we be courageous today. May we learn today. May we love today. Amen. Simple, beautiful prayer that we often pray and my boys now have memorized. If you ask them to recite it for you, they will go like Mach 20 just to get it all out because they're so sick of saying it. All the time, but it's in there. And then I want to follow up. Not with our Daily Beakner this time, but actually, we are turning to our Daily Clive. Our daily.

B (15:55)

You like that?

B (15:57)

You like that?

C (15:58)

Just when I get used to how things flow, you throw me. Always the cleverest of curve balls, so well done.

B (16:05)

Our Daily Cleb. Our Daily CS Lewis.

A (16:07)

I'm still thrown off by the fact that this is a weekly podcast.

B (16:13)

This is our daily CS Lewis, who wrote a lot in various places about the virtues.

C (16:18)

Sorry, Brett, that was a slow burn. But it took me. I'm like, weekly podcast, like, what? What does that have to do with anything? Our daily Beakt weekly podcast. Got it.

A (16:27)

I guess Reid expects people to listen to this episode once a day until the next one comes out.

B (16:32)

Have you ever heard of the Lord's Prayer, Brent?

C (16:35)

Yeah.

B (16:36)

Give us this day. Our. He doesn't say weekly bread. Our daily. I get. Oh, you know what I'm doing. I know what you're doing, but you know what I'm doing.

A (16:44)

I think the Weekly Beginner has a nice ring to it.

C (16:48)

The Weekly Beekee.

A (16:50)

I'm sorry, I'm ruining your whole episode.

B (16:52)

Great.

B (16:54)

Because Marty said weekly Beaky, and I was already thinking that.

B (17:00)

Oh, this is good. This is. We're in a mood today for our courage recording.

A (17:04)

It's better than the vices.

B (17:06)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, virtues are happier than vices, so. Makes sense. Uh, anyway, C.S. lewis wrote a little book called the Screwtape Letters, which you may have heard of. And our Daily Clive comes to you from this. It's the 29th letter in Screwtape Letter. So for those who don't know, I think a lot of people do know, but this is being written from the perspective of a demon who is training his nephew in how to be like an expert tempter and tormentor. And so he demon talking to nephew in training. He says, we have made men proud of most vices, but not of cowardice. Whenever we have almost succeeded in doing so, the enemy, meaning God, permits a war or an earthquake or some other calamity, and at once courage becomes so obviously lovely and important, even in human eyes, and that all our work is undone and there is still at least one vice of which they feel genuine shame. And then he writes, courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point, which means at the point of highest reality. A chastity or honesty or mercy which yields to danger will be chaste or honest or merciful only on conditions Pilate was merciful until it became risky.

C (18:27)

It was good.

B (18:27)

Yeah. So we're into courage now, which I think he's dead on. It's every virtue at the testing point. This ain't no king's English here, Brent. Courage is a word that we use that we know.

A (18:40)

Amen. Love it.

B (18:41)

And I think I was saying this just before we started recording. I think that maybe, like, alongside love, from which all things come and go, courage is. Is maybe the most important virtue, which hopefully that'll become clear why I think that in a second. But it's. It's also like, it's not terribly complicated. I thought probably a hundred times in the last week when I was prepping for this episode about that Shia LaBeouf video where he's like, do it, do it. You know what I'm saying?

C (19:14)

Yeah.

B (19:14)

There's something simple and profound about do it. I think of courage as like the most elemental of the virtues. Right. It's not complex. Like, when you get down to the most elemental parts of material reality, they're not necessarily complex, but they are essential. It actually comes to the word courage. Our word courage comes from the Latin cor, which means heart. And you see definitely an association of the idea of courage and heart throughout the Scriptures. So like the Psalms where it says, wait for the Lord, be strong and take heart, and wait for the lord. That's Psalm 27. Or in Psalm 31, where it says, be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the Lord. What it's saying is strengthen your heart. The idea for courage is to become strong in your Lev. Right, That's. Is that the right. The Hebrew word. I got it.

C (20:09)

The other one is hazak.

B (20:11)

Hazak, yeah, That's. That's strong.

C (20:13)

Hazak Vahmatz. Yep.

B (20:15)

Strengthen and. Marty, can you just give us like a 30 second overview of the idea of Lev in Hebrew thinking?

C (20:22)

Yeah. And this is probably oversimplified or over maybe overstated, but love kind of broken down or. Lev. Did you say Lev?

B (20:30)

Lev. Heart. Heart. That's what I mean.

C (20:32)

Lev. Okay. Heart. Yeah. Your heart is the seat of choice, of will, of volition. It's probably closer related to. Although I really hate it. I just heard somebody do this the other day. They said, well, the heart is the mind in Hebrew thinking. And it is closer to what we think of when we think of mind. Like we often think in English in our Western world. Heart is emotion. It's the seed of passion. But our mind is where our thoughts are. But in the Hebrew, it's not the same as thoughts, but it is choice. It's will, it's volition. It's closer to what we would think of when we think of mind than feelings.

B (21:10)

Is it fair to say that, like, when we talk about guts, you know, like that place from within you where you find your will, you know, that's. That's sort of what.

C (21:21)

Yes.

B (21:21)

Okay. And so courage is related to strengthening this part of you, of being resolved in this part of you.

C (21:29)

Yes. And I would say there's a. What I love about it is there is a strong connection to volition. This is not something that overtakes you, that you are subject to. It is you are choosing to strengthen this to. To bear down to. Absolutely. It's a part of what you're choosing to do.

B (21:46)

I'm glad you said that, because later in the conversation, I want to talk about the difficulty of actually choosing then, like, when fear is at your door or opposition, you know, and how. How do we actually find courage or find it within us to be courageous? I want to talk about that a little later, but yes, absolutely. It's about, you know, choosing to go forward when there are good reasons not to, I guess.

C (22:11)

Yeah. The conversation is going to keep swirling as we talk about this for any of our Bama people, is going to be the strengthening your heart Session one with Pharaoh. And we talk about the two words of strengthen. And sometimes it's God doing the strengthening. But the moment that it matters, should we say the moment that it changes, is when Pharaoh himself chooses to hazak his heart.

B (22:34)

Yeah.

C (22:34)

Is where God goes, all right, that's on you.

B (22:36)

Yeah. So that's the idea with courage. I mean, Jesus, when he. So in the Greek, in the New Testament, tharsos is the word for courage. And when it gets translated in the niv, when he says to people, take heart, that's. Which is like, you know, to. To become courageous. And so I think, again, like the idea with courage, there are some virtues that feel more cognitive. For example, when we talk about wisdom and discerning between what's right when it's right, that feels more of like a mind thing. Whereas courage, I think, definitely has to do with what's at the core of you. And the essential, I think, nature of courage is there because virtue, we're, you know, so through the series and we're talking about virtues as what it looks like to actually live as the image of God. What kind of people is God calling us to be in the world? It's hard. Virtue is hard. So to be a person of justice, who does the things that make for peace is difficult, right? Or like knowing when to say enough in the virtue of temperance is difficult. And on and on. We could go through each of these virtues and say there are many obstacles to them. Like, none of them are easy. There are reasons to be afraid. There are things to be confused about sometimes. You know, just living our lives in community and in the world, like, there is just opposition to what we feel in our core we ought to do. There are people who oppose that. There are forces and systems that oppose that also. Very often living in a virtuous way will involve some kinds of pain. Enduring pain, enduring difficulty and suffering. And then, of course, there's that ever looming specter of what if you fail? You know, that is there, you know, looming in front of you when you are trying to choose to live in a virtuous way. And so I think of courage then as the thing that actually empowers the living out of virtue in the face of obstacles. So, like, if trying to be and actually act and live is the image of God to choose to do virtuous things. If that's like an engine, then courage I think of as. As the gas. It's the gas that makes the engine go. And so you can have virtues, other virtues. You can have wisdom, you can have temperance, you can have, you know, faith and. And on and on. But if you have those and you don't have courage, then I think those things become kind of inert. It's like, you know, when you cook pasta and you take a noodle out to see if it's done, and you, like, throw it at the cabinet. I think of virtues without any courage at all as kind of like that wet noodle that's just stuck to the side of the cabinet and it's not really doing anything. It's not really going anywhere. It's done, maybe it's cooked, but it's not really good for much. Courage is the thing that's like helping us to get out and do the virtuous thing in the face of difficulty. Are we tracking?

C (25:55)

Yeah, I really like that. There's two things as you say that that stand out to me and come to mind. One of those is that what I'm hearing you say is courage is connected to the thing that is most true when it's easy to get distracted by the things that are it's wrapped in. But if you get down to it, the thing that is most true, it's not a periphery thing. Courage is the thing attached to the Most true thing. And all the other stuff is what's trying to make you forget what's most true, which I really like. And when you said it's the gas, like my brain immediately went to, we have a Suburban right now we're trying to get out of. It's got 215, 220,000 miles on it.

B (26:33)

Well loved.

C (26:34)

Yes. But we have, like, we had to rebuild the engine at 150,000 miles, which never should have happened, but it's the way it goes. So you have, like. I'm always thinking of my Suburban, like the guts of this thing, the other little periphery parts are going to go out. I'm going to have to replace this and that. Like I keep reminding myself, like, the engine, the real important parts of this Suburban are still much newer than everything. So courage is the thing that, like, taps you into despite what you want to see on the surface, there's something that's really quite good on the inside and not good, but you get what I'm saying?

B (27:14)

Yeah, no, totally. I think it's important, too, to distinguish courage from some things that maybe kind of look like courage, but maybe aren't courage in its best form. So, yeah, yeah, you know, like bravado or just like sheer willpower or the idea of being really daring. Right. Sometimes that it's like gas that's making an engine go, but it can be destructive, like it's going maybe in the wrong direction or something like that. And so Aquinas talks about how the virtue of courage is attached to facing danger. Specifically, that comes on account of pursuing good. Of some good. Right. So it's not just as simple as doing a thing that you'd rather not. But when it is for the sake of what is good or true or beautiful or just or right, then courage is the thing that is making it go. Because if you think about, you know, courage that's devoid of other virtues. So we talked about a second ago, we talked about virtues and what happens without courage, right? And they just kind of languish their. Their nice ideas, but they don't do much courage. Without these other virtues, though, like, if you've got courage but you don't have justice, you don't have a conviction or a sense about what is fair and right and what makes for peace that can become. I mean, I was thinking of just like the picture of like a cruel dictator, right. Who is able to exert will and do things maybe that are even difficult, but without any sense of what is fair and right. Right. And so it's just kind of like it can be really cruel. Or think about courage without the virtue of temperance, which is knowing when to say enough. And so if you just keep going, right, without ever stopping to think about, is this enough? Is this the right amount? Is it too much? Then it kind of gets into that ceaseless sort of maybe striving. It's just a picture of, like, you're exhausting yourself. You're go, go, going. And maybe to some people, it looks like courage, right? Oh, my gosh, look at all that they're doing. Look at all that they're accomplishing. But maybe without temperance, it's actually not the best picture that it can be. Or, you know, thinking about the other cardinal virtue is wisdom and what courage looks like without wisdom, you know, And I was just imagining, like, a bull in a china shop, like, it's doing stuff and it's going everywhere, but not really trying to discern what is right or not. It's just pure action, you know, and so it can be kind of reckless. And so, yeah, that's just the other point I wanted to make, is that courage is about acting specifically towards what is true and beautiful and good when there is opposition to that.

C (29:56)

That's really great. I love that. A way of making the distinction. I don't know if I heard you say this out loud. I know. Your notes talked about, does murder require courage?

B (30:06)

Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

C (30:07)

I love those distinctions and then specifically linking them up with the other virtues. Courage without. That's really good. Cruelty, striving, recklessness.

B (30:16)

Yeah.

C (30:16)

Yeah, that's great. That's really good.

B (30:18)

I'm curious if you guys can. Leanne actually asked me this, you know, because I tend to be a guy who's way up in my head and thinking, you know, concepts and whatever, and she's like, well, do you remember a time when you needed courage? And it's just, like, such a powerful question. Do either of you remember a time when you needed courage to do something? And are you willing to tell us a little bit about that?

A (30:39)

I don't know. This is kind of a difficult question because it's hard to look at anything I've done and think, yeah, I was courageous. Like, which I think is normal. Most people who do things that require courage, it was just like, oh, of course. Like, it's just. And I. I don't even know if it's true for me. Like, I. I'm having a hard time assessing it of myself. So I don't know. But I think you could maybe say, like, moving to Moscow or whatever, because I had a job that I thought I was gonna have, and then I had this other job and there was a lot of unknowns. But it's like, is that really what we're talking about? I don't know.

B (31:17)

Well, maybe. And I mean, I appreciate your humility in saying, like, it's hard to say. I was courageous. I think courage is one of these things that's. There's a both andness to it. Like it is what we choose to do. But also I think it's a gift that comes from somewhere, sometimes outside of us or deep within us that's not entirely just ours that we can take credit for, you know? But Marty, you. You were pointing out, it's not like you just get sort of taken over like some automaton. Right. And possessed.

C (31:47)

Yep.

B (31:47)

But there is like a. A sense, I think, of being sort of gripped by the spirit and then you choosing to act in partnership with that. Like when the iron is hot, you strike, you know. But what's heating up that iron is maybe not entirely up to you. Does that make sense?

C (32:05)

Yeah. It doesn't come from you, but you always have this ability to tap into. And that's part of the call or the beauty is always knowing that you're tapping into something that we would say comes from God, like the sources, not from us. But yet we have to still choose to like, okay, I'm going to play that card. I'm going to access this thing that only comes from God so that I can be the person that God's calling me to be. As Brent was sharing too, I think what's so powerful often, and we don't do this in all spaces because it is emotionally vulnerable and it only belongs in certain spaces. But part of the gift of ever sitting in a space where part of what we're doing together because of an activity or something, a team building, or just sitting around a campfire and having an intimate relationship with somebody else and calling out the courage you see in. I think it's hard to see our own courage, but it's so meaningful when somebody else sees it and goes, I see what you like. I just wrote a letter to a friend of mine, put it in the mail this morning because what I wanted him. You probably don't see this because you do it every day. And I'm not sure that anybody else sees this, but I want you to know that I see it and it's something. So there are these moments like, Brent, I can think of just this year, of you having to show up in your family spaces because of things that have happened in your family. There's a lot of folks that probably wouldn't have necessarily, well, hey, a lot of folks that may not have even had the emotional bandwidth or balance to do it, but would have chosen not to do it, that maybe had the balance but then. Or found some other way to do it. But you, like, you showed up, you went back and forth across the country two or three times. You did things that probably aren't in your wheelhouse, and you're probably not even all that you would say equipped to do. But time called duty, called to show up and do that 100%, and you did that. And maybe it's not like we're going to make movies out of it, but that is courage. Like, that is the moment showed up and we said, yes, we decided to show up. Yeah.

B (34:09)

One of the things that has transformed us as a family in praying that prayer so regularly that I shared at the beginning is that we have noticed that it becomes much easier to notice acts of courage in other people, actually. And I find myself in the last calendar year just using the word, you know, and the word is powerful, like, to. To say to somebody that that took courage because, you know, it's not the King's English, but also it's not maybe a word that we use all the time. And I think it still has some real sort of, like, weight to it, you know, And I just feel like when I see. I think about students in my campus ministry, you know, and the things that they do, it's like you need somebody to step up and tell you, like, that took courage, and that's a beautiful thing. You know, Marty, I think about you, and I've said this to you many times, but, you know, that decision years ago to share the podcast, as the podcast is, like, starting to become more well known, and you could have let it become the Marty show, or you could have just let it go that way, but your decision to instead, like, diversify and share and get other voices, other opinions, I think that takes a lot of courage. Not just. I mean, there's a kind of humility, but it's the courage of letting go of the control of the thing, too, you know, like, it's not going to be all my voice, all my thoughts, and I'm going to trust these other people, you know, and, of course, courage and trust or faith, like, those things are very much like, you know, at the. They're intertwined, I think, but it's an act of trust. Maybe that's a better question for even listeners, is rather than just thinking about, when did you need courage? Maybe when have you seen in the people around you, you know, your family, your friends, your kids? I mean, to. For a parent to speak to a child and to say that took real courage, you know, I mean, that's. That's like. That's the water of life right there. You know, not to be sacrilegious, but it just means a lot. And so, you know, for us to call on each other when we see those acts of courage, I mean, I think that could go a long way.

C (36:12)

Yeah. Or one of the things I've learned from therapists in my life is to have a conversation with that younger version of yourself, like, the little boy. Like, what would the little boy say to you? Thank you for doing that. That was courageous. Or backwards. What would you say to the little you that was like, thank you for doing that? Back then, you didn't know any better. You shouldn't have had the tools. But you made this decision, and it made me who I am today. Like, whenever you think of removing the conversation away from you, it's easier to have it. Like, even if you're having it with yourself or you're thinking to yourself, what would my best friend, what would Reed say to me about where I've been? Courageous allows me to get just out of my head enough to go, oh, maybe actually, I'm more courageous in moments that I would never give myself credit for because the credit doesn't belong to me. That's what makes it a virtue.

B (37:03)

Yeah, for sure.

C (37:04)

The credit belongs to God. But darn it, God is at work in my life. And when I say yes, it all comes together, and it's courage.

B (37:11)

And I wonder, too, like, as you were saying that I was thinking of the significance of recognizing courage, specifically, at least for me, because I think there's something about the fact that it's such a core kind of virtue, like, it's related to the heart deep down. Not just like my own, like, talent, you know, but something deeper.

C (37:32)

Yeah.

B (37:32)

It feels especially encourage. Encouraging. Ah, look at that. Encouraging to call it out on other people, you know, or to even to recognize it in yourself, which I think is very right, you know, to look back at a younger self and to say, you know what? That did take courage. And, you know, good on you. And also, again, credit, like, to God. Good on. Good on you and God partnering together, you know?

C (37:54)

Yep, totally.

B (37:55)

So as we kind of get into the text conversation, you know, we've already Actually dabbled a little bit in the Hazak and the Mets, you know, And I think there's like something to talking about those as concepts, I guess. But one of the thing things I think about courage is maybe, maybe more than a lot of the other virtues. Like, when you see it lived out, it is very inspiring. I mean, how many movies, right, can you think of where there is like the thing that makes you want to get out of, get up out of your seat is some incredible act of courage, you know, and that, like, when you see that too, I think there is. Who said this was it? I'm going to mess up the attribute. But I was reading somebody who talked about how the contagious quality of courage, and I think they were talking about in the context of like a battle, you know, and when one person stands up and shows courage in the face of danger, it stiffens the spines of the people around them and they can latch onto that, you know. And so I think maybe what's helpful in teaching us about courage is times when we see it lived out. And I think we definitely see that in the text, like at many points. And one of the beautiful things we see acts of courage from very flawed people. It's not just like the noble, pure hero in the Bible who was doing courageous things. But before that, actually, I wanted to ask you, Marty, so your trips to Turkey, those last few days, you spent some time focusing on stories of early Christians. I actually, I had to miss one of the days that you. That we were going down in, in the caves in Cappadocia because I got sick. Bummer. So you can fill me in here, but I'm just curious, like, if. If there's a favorite for you, like the story that you love to tell about early Christians who showed courage and then if there's just anything you learned, what do you learn about courage from that story?

C (39:57)

Yeah, there is a last day where we just share like so many stories from lots of different parts of history. My favorite ones are the ones we get to follow along the way. And I won't give away some of my greatest punchlines, but I mean, the story of Philip we have told on the podcast before, which probably still remains to be one of my favorite. You basically encounter most of that story at one site on the trip and you follow him along the way. There's really one gospel writer and only one gospel writer that talks about Philip. He's mentioned in all the lists. Like, all the subjects will mention Philip in the list of disciples, but John is the only one that will tell us all the stories of Philip. It's not in Matthew, it's not in Mark, it's not in Luke. If we didn't have the Gospel of John, we wouldn't have any of the Philip stories. And I think the reason for that is I think John's writing to the world that Philip lives in. They all know him. Pastor Philip, or maybe they knew him because his story is going to end with him giving his life for the sake of the gospel. He moves to the area of Colossae and Hierapolis and Laodicea, and he basically helps pastor that area along with John and other apostles. So it's going to pastor that area. He has a unique connection with the Gentiles, and he's going to, according to church history, take up shop there in Hierapolis and that area. And eventually, as history tells it, this isn't in the scripture. History's got different versions of his story, but one of the stories is he's going to go there with his three to seven daughters, and he's going to be essentially crucified. He's going to be hung upside down from his Achilles tendons, and they're going to violate his daughters and tell him to renounce the faith and they'll stop. And this family, it's not just him, it's his daughters, too. Say, don't do it. Like, hold on to the faith. And it's not necessarily even the martyrdom. It's that there's something about the integrity as the core. You talked about the core. Like, there is something at the core of what the gospel is in the face of imperial injustice or abuse. And there's something true and good that was not going to be tainted. And they tapped into this courage. And that's the story of martyrdom. That is the. That's what makes martyrdom what it is. But willingness to not give up, not compromise, not taint the integrity and the courage. I just find it moving because here's somebody that's like, I'll give up everything because the gospel is that good. It is so transcendently wonderful and transcendently beautiful that nothing else could compare to it. So I wouldn't even try to keep my life in the face of. I wouldn't try to keep my most treasured possessions in the face of the beauty of what this means for the rest of the world. I've always been very moved by that. It's kind of actually hard to articulate on a podcast at a microphone.

B (42:47)

Yeah. So I was there. And that's the day that I most vividly remember. And at the end of that, we had time just to reflect, quiet, alone. And it's not to try to poo poo on, like, oh, you don't have anything hard going on in your life because you're not being crucified upside down. Right. It's not that. But I think it's like, if this person can endure this, can show this kind of courage, then maybe I can, too, in whatever it is that I am facing.

C (43:19)

Yes.

B (43:19)

Also interesting, you know, the story of martyrs, because Aquinas, in writing about courage, he, you know, one of the early sort of emblems of courage was the warrior Achilles. And Aristotle held up Achilles as sort of like a symbol, like the quintessence of courage. And Aquinas took that and actually then sort of expanded and said, actually, that is a kind of courage. But the martyr is the even more full picture of courage because the soldier, you know, the Achilles soldier especially, who is, you know, complicated, but the soldier often does it for. Can even do it for his own glory. But the martyr does not suffer for his own glory. And that's what makes that courage even deeper and even more inspiring, more beautiful, is that it's about something bigger than you, that is the gospel, you know, or for God. And so, yeah, I think that's another thing we can learn about courage is that, like, I guess its fullest kind of manifestation is when it. It chooses to face danger for the sake of somebody who is not me or my own. It's not about my own renown. It's not about me being seen as courageous. It's just about me doing whatever it is that God has put in front of me to do without really focusing or worrying too much about, like, what's going to be the consequence of this. It's just this is what God has put before me to do. And so I'm going to. With God's help and the courage he's given me, I'm going to do it, you know.

C (44:49)

Yeah. Which is why it's so. Because sometimes we hear that and there's a twisted version of it that goes like, oh, well, if martyrdom is the ultimate, well, then how do I somehow, like, achieve this? And it's not the transaction, it's what it. So one of the. I'm trying to remember who said it. One of the rabbis talked about, like, the greatest form of courage is not dying for your faith, but choosing to live for it. I can't remember if that's Heschel or Okay, a more ancient voice. I can't remember if that's Akiva or something.

B (45:17)

I mean, I love the thought.

C (45:18)

That's what martyrdom throws the door open to. It's not the actual death of the martyr, the transaction that's true courage. It's the thing that lied behind that, which is actually the thing that lies behind our living. Like, it's not only accessible in the dying of martyrdom, it's that the death of the martyr throws a door open to the truth that's accessible for me to live in now. So the goal isn't to go die, the goal is to go live, but to live in the beauty that I only was able to see because that martyr was, as Aquinas says, able to tap into something and live and die and do everything for something far greater than their own experience and story.

A (45:58)

Yeah. It's saying that I'm unwilling to live without this. And somebody saying, well, if you do that, then we're going to kill you. And then they say, yeah, that's what we're gonna have to do then, because I am unwilling to live without this.

C (46:13)

Right. Yeah.

B (46:14)

I was thinking through this series in the different virtues, how I think each is kind of attached to a BHMA ism. And I was actually talking to Elle about this a while back earlier in the summer, and I was like, got this one for Temperance is knowing when to say enough. Justice is like shalom, you know, Kingdom over Empire, that kind of thing.

C (46:37)

Yeah.

B (46:37)

And I was like, well, I don't know about courage. And she's like, oh, well, that's easy. It's totally the throw your stone thing. Which did you actually. When you did that. Is there a Bama episode on that, or am I giving away one of your. One of your secrets?

C (46:50)

I think it's in there. I think there is a throw your stone. The David and Goliath. We might not do all the pieces that we do in person, but I. I'm pretty sure that's. That's a part of the. At least there was a blog post, and most of my blog posts became a podcast episode.

B (47:03)

And I don't want to rehash that entire teaching here, but I do. I think we should link that for the essence of throw your stone, I think is. Is courage. And actually, we are so right now at ccf, we're doing first and second Samuel and quickly, by the way, becoming like my favorite thing in the entire Bible, actually. Low key. Maybe next session I'll do something on that because it's just so good but anyway, when David is getting ready to go out and face Goliath first, he says to Saul, this is 1st Samuel 17, he says, let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine, which is basically like, don't lose your courage. You know, it's. Don't lose your courage, right? And he says, I'll go and I. I'll fight. And you know, who doesn't, like, get amped up when David steps before Goliath and he's like, you know, you. You come before me with. Hold on, what's the. You come against me with a sword and a spear and a javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. And I just think again, you know, it's like, we'll talk about this a little bit more in a few minutes. But that courage is not ultimately about my own skill or ability, but, like, what David is, you know, he's not. I come against you with this sling that I'm really good at slinging, you know, but God is with me here, and that's the source of his. Of his courage. And then he, you know, and then he throws the stone. I want to point out, unless. Is there anything you want to add about the David thing at this moment?

A (48:35)

It's episode 39. It's in there. I checked the transcript.

B (48:38)

39. Okay. Yeah, go back and listen to that. It's. It's good. Marty. I still remember actually when you came to men's retreat at CCF, like six years ago or something, and you did that lesson, and I still got dudes who are like, man, that was such a good teaching. But actually, on that note, I think sometimes courage is unfairly, like, strewn as a masculine virtue. And, you know, it's like, that ain't.

C (49:01)

True in the Bible.

B (49:02)

Definitely not. Definitely not. I mean, I just. Off the dome, I was like, well, you got Ruth. And actually the idea of being strengthened. The ametz is in there. So when Naomi is trying to send Ruth away, back to where she came from. Yeah. And Ruth is like, don't. You know, everybody knows the speech, right? Where you go, I will go. Where you stay, will stay. Your people be my people. And then it says, when Naomi realized that Ruth was determined to go with her, she stopped urging her. And that was determined is that idea of that, like, she. She was resolved. And that thing in her was like the courage to then be and go with Naomi, you know, and at risk to her own self, you know, and, yeah, so there's. There's Ruth. I mean, we got Esther.

C (49:47)

Absolutely.

B (49:48)

I was rereading this story and the part where Esther, she's talking to Mordecai and she's saying, like, have the people fast and pray. And I'm going to go, and even though basically it's against the law, I'm going to talk to the king. And she just says, if I perish, I perish.

C (50:05)

Yep.

B (50:06)

And it's like, dude, that actually, it kind of reminds me of, you know, in Rocky iv, when did not think this is going to go to Rocky iv, but Ivan Drago is like, if he dies, he dies. It's like the inverse of that. Right. Where it's like, her own sacrifice, her own potential, she's facing danger for the sake of her people. And again, it's like just after that, even when she reveals herself and it's like, spare me and my people. We've been destroyed. To stand up for the people in that way takes an immense amount of courage.

C (50:38)

Yep.

B (50:38)

And then, of course, the story of Mary, when I was rereading this, you know, it in thinking through the lens of courage, when it says in Luke that Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of a greeting this might be, it struck me as like, this is an experience that we know that sometimes when. When the Lord has a nudge or a word or a call for us, that's not always the most comforting thing.

C (51:08)

Yep.

B (51:09)

And sometimes it can feel troubling, and it's like, oh, wait a minute, like, the spirit is stirring. What kind of a greeting is this going to be? Like, what kind of a message is this going to be? What's it going to ask of me? What's it going to require of me to be able to faithfully live out? And so then, of course, the situation that is put to Mary, to carry the child, like, that puts her at risk. And yet, despite that, of course, there are the famous words where she says, I am the Lord's servant. May it be to me according to your word. And just. Yeah. And especially, like, I know we've. You've talked about this, but, like, how young Mary was.

C (51:48)

Yeah.

B (51:48)

And the kind of courage that that requires. And again, in each of these cases, with Mary, with Esther, with Ruth, what matters preeminently is the thing that they are given to do in that moment, and knowing that it is, you know, from God or for the good of the people, and choosing to just lean into that, where it's like, whatever happens, I'm your servant. It is trusting the story, like, lived out at its core.

C (52:13)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (52:14)

And then, of course, you know, I think about Jesus. Leanne brought this up to me. She said, I think about the verse all the time in John 12. And he says, my soul is troubled. Like, he's talking to his disciples. My soul is troubled. And he goes, but what am I going to say? Father, save me from this hour? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Like, he knew that his. Where his task was taking him all along. This is going to take me to a dangerous place. And so what am I going to back out now? And there's a million voices, right? Sometimes in our own lives, there's a million voices that are like, well, but if you do that, then this is going to happen, you know, or if you do that, you're going to lose this, or people are going to think that. And there again, it's all the opposition to actually carry forth, like the. And live out the virtue God's calling us to. And yet this is the very thing. We knew this was coming, you know? And, you know, of course, thinking about. I love the humanness of Jesus when he's like. So that's. He says that, but then later he's like, praying and he's, you know, let take this cup away. I don't want this. You know, and just. There's something really real about that. And so I think we learn about courage, that it's not about pretending to be something you're not. It's not about being somebody who has no fear or being somebody who has no desire that things would be. It's okay. Like, it's understandable to desire that things would be safer, to desire that things would be more comfortable. Of course, there's no shame in that. That's all very natural. And yet it's that courage is the thing that turns on in us when we can say, and yet that's not the preeminent thing here. It's not about that. It's about me going forward where God has asked me to go, this resolve to see it through.

C (53:55)

Yeah. I keep thinking of this phrase that keeps coming up in the last few examples. For the sake of others, courage is doing this thing for the sake of others. And it made me think of your. Whether it was you or Aquinas, I can't remember who was talking about courage without justice, courage without temperance, courage without. And this one just makes me think courage without love. Like courage without love is just a triumphalism. I guess I was. I Was looking for a word, but it's just. It's just me being awesome. Me persevering. But the virtue, the thing that makes courage a full virtue is it's. It's for the sake of. Of others, and just not just others transactionally, is for something that God is up to that's bigger than just my own experience and my own story.

B (54:43)

Yeah.

C (54:43)

It's me saying yes because I realize I'm a part of this larger thing.

B (54:46)

Yeah. I mean, about shalom, Right?

C (54:49)

Yep.

B (54:49)

Yeah. I think otherwise you can. You can devolve back into that picture of, like, the, you know, the Achilles, like the legendary warrior who is praised for his strength and his fearlessness and his cunning in battle.

C (55:03)

Yes.

B (55:03)

And it's like those are strength and cunning and all those are perfectly good things. But that's ultimately not what it is about. And that's not what it's. That's. It's not about that being on display for its own sake.

C (55:13)

Yeah.

B (55:13)

I think the last thing that I really want to talk about, you know, so if we're talking about the image of God and that's what virtue is about, I mean, we've already covered this. But I do think it's fair to say that God needs us to be people of courage, because as I've said a million times, quoting a poem from Teresa of Avila, who said, you know, Christ has no hands now but yours, no feet but yours, no eyes but yours, no ears but yours. And so that means that the work Christ is wanting to do with the body and the world is a healing work. But it's difficult and it's costly. And so we have to be people of courage. But how do we actually find courage in that moment of that sort of critical moment, you know, where, like, the moment at which David is standing there and sees Goliath down in the valley and realizes, like, nobody is going out to meet him. And how does somebody find that? I was thinking about, actually, another time this idea of boldness comes up in the New Testament is in the book of Acts. One of my actual favorite lessons from the Israel trip was at Bethsaida, out there in the Styx and talking about who the disciples were and where they came from. And there's this amazing line, actually, Brent, can I have you read this one from Acts, chapter four?

A (56:37)

When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled ordinary men, they were astonished. And they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

B (56:46)

Yeah. I mean, I remember standing there, almost being able to Hear these kids running through the woods, you know, and it's just. I'm from northern Missouri, which is rural, and, you know, our trucks doors don't work properly sometimes. And I mean, you know, the truck that I drove, Marty, and like, nothing very much to esteem in the eyes of the world where we're from. And yet. And that's pointed out. I mean, they see that Peter and John, they're ordinary people. They're nothing too glitzy or glammy about them, but they saw their courage and they were astonished. And what was evident to them was that these men had been with Jesus. And so for people who are hearing this and they're like, you know, again, getting the epic hero idea in your mind, and you think about, know Aragorn at the Black Gate, or you think about whoever, whatever movie, whatever sports star comes to mind, whatever, you know, civil rights activist, whoever comes to mind. Courage is not. It's. It's for ordinary people, is what I want to say. And it's something that God gives to each of us in the time that we need it. And so it's. It's not about, like, if you think, well, I could have more courage if I just were bigger or stronger or had better this or better that or smarter this or that. This axe idea, I think, can put that to rest. It's really not about that. And I think similarly, you know, that line, they could see that they had been with Jesus. I think about Moses at the bush when he is first called. And of course, when God calls Moses, the first thing he has is a rebuttal, right? And he's like, yeah, who am I? Like, I'm, you know, And God's immediate rebuttal to him is what?

C (58:28)

He certainly doesn't engage in the logic, which would have been an easy argument to win.

B (58:32)

Yeah.

C (58:32)

Like, God could have been like, who is more qualified? Who's going to present a better resume? Moses, for what I'm asking. But God doesn't engage in any of that logic. He just says, I'll be with you.

B (58:41)

Yeah, I will be with you.

C (58:42)

Which you're connecting it to, they had been with Jesus. Oh, that's good. Oh, that's good read.

B (58:48)

And so there's like a litany of excuses that Moses still goes through. Right. And after Moses says, who am I? He's basically like, who are you? What am I going to say? Who. Who you are? And what if they don't believe me? And, you know, I'm not a good speaker. I'm not good enough for this. And then I love how at the end he's like, pardon me, but just send somebody else.

C (59:05)

Yeah, yeah.

B (59:06)

And I want to note that sometimes for us, like, you know, so courage is required in the face of opposition. Sometimes that opposition is purely internal. It's not actually anybody outside of you that's saying, like, this is a bad idea. Yeah, it's just you doubting on yourself. But again, it's not about. I mean, it's true. Moses, not an eloquent speaker, but that's not the point. The point is that courage, it comes from an assurance of knowing that God is with you. I mean, that. That prayer that. From Padre. Courage comes from the heart, and we are always welcomed by God, who is the heart of all being, that God is always welcoming us into partnership with him. And that when God is partnered with us, that's where our sense of courage comes from. And so I just think we have to realize if we're looking for it in externals and more qualifications or we're better this or that, I think we have to remember that first it comes from God is with us and actually leaning into that and believing on that. And I mean, sometimes that's all we have. And this is a difficult thing for me because I'm a very logical, analytical, reasonable kind of thinker where it's like, okay, I want to have a plan, and if that doesn't work, then it's going to be this and it's going to be that. And there are times, I think, where we can't actually be focused on potential and contingencies and potential failures and all about this and what might happen and a fallback and a plan B. And I'm not advocating for, like, on the one hand, I'm not advocating for rashness. Right. And for, like, foolishness. But it's like this tension. Right. On the other hand, it sometimes really doesn't actually serve us to go through and try to make a list of, like, and then this could happen and this could happen. And that can be a killer to courage. Like, sometimes when the moment hits, you've got to step up in partnership with the spirit of God that is upon you and go out and do the thing that God is asking you to do and not try to math it all out or map it all out X years into the future or. You know what I'm saying?

C (61:06)

Yep, I absolutely know you're saying.

B (61:08)

Yeah. I mean, I think about stories in the scripture where, you know, the Spirit rushes upon somebody. And again, I want to call us back to what you said at the beginning, Marty, this is not a matter of, like, possession, but there is a partnership. And as the spirit comes, we have the invitation to go with. And there are times where I think we. We feel that. And it's like, okay, it's time to go, you know, and it's, muster up your courage. God is with you. And. And let's do this.

C (61:39)

Yeah. It is like courage. I suppose one of the thoughts I'm trying to formulate as you're giving these closing thoughts. Courage is not where I reach into my toolbox or I reach into my bag and I pull out God so that I can do the thing.

B (61:54)

Yeah.

C (61:55)

Courage is realizing that God is doing a thing. And he's reached into his bag and pulled us out.

B (62:01)

Oh, my gosh. Chills just got chills.

C (62:04)

And like, that's the, Like God's asking us and he picked us. He wasn't just fumbling around and like, oh, crap, I pulled this one out. But he's like, he specifically reached in and said, I've made you for this moment. I've chosen you. You didn't choose me. I'm picking you to go do something. And I need you to say yes to this moment. And I picked you on purpose, so trust that I know what I'm doing.

B (62:27)

Yeah.

C (62:28)

So it didn't generate from us, but there is a partnership choice of, okay, I guess I'm here, I am, send me.

B (62:37)

And that moment could be the I have a dream speech.

C (62:40)

Yes.

B (62:40)

And it could also be like, I gotta have a conversation with my kid. And it's really gonna be difficult to open that up, you know, and the only people that are ever gonna know about that conversation are me and my kid. But what ties those two things together, I think still, like, great or small, is courage and the spirit of God giving us courage and asking us to go correct.

C (63:01)

Totally.

A (63:01)

Yeah. Martin Luther King stepping on the stage, saying the first word, that's the moment of courage. Because he could have bailed out at any point. And I think it's just those single moments where you know what you need to do. Like this. I don't think this is an example of courage, but recently I had to take my 7 year old to the hospital to get an X ray because he swallowed a chain, a small, like, necklace kind of chain. Why was it in his mouth? Difficult to say. He definitely didn't mean to swallow it. And it's a fine chain. Like, I looked it up. It's like, it's probably going to be fine. We probably don't need to get the X ray. We probably don't need to spend all this money going to the hospital. Like, of course it happened at basically five o' clock when the normal doctor's office is closing, as all things do.

A (63:55)

But in that moment, it's like, well, it doesn't really. All that stuff doesn't really matter because I know that my kids are more important to me than anything else. So it's just like, okay, we're going to the hospital and you just have to make that decision in the moment because you have some other conviction behind it. If you don't have any convictions, then you're never going to be able to get through that moment to the other side where somebody can say, oh, that was courageous.

C (64:20)

Yep.

B (64:20)

I elected this time not to do self examination questions. And.

B (64:28)

Why are you laughing?

C (64:29)

Brent is so excited right now. He's like, oh, good.

A (64:32)

Sheesh though it's fine.

B (64:37)

But I actually want to end this whole episode as a chiasm. See if you guys can go find the middle. But I wanted to end with the same prayer that we started with and just let that be enough for us when it comes to being people of courage. So, Brent, actually, can I. Can I ask you to read it and close us out?

A (64:54)

Courage comes from the heart and we are always welcomed by God, the heart of all being. We bear witness to our faith, knowing that we are called to live lives of courage, love and reconciliation in the ordinary and extraordinary moments of each day. We bear witness too, to our failures and our complicity in the fractures of our world. May we be courageous today. May we learn today. May we love today. Amen.