489: Vice & Virtue — Justice

Summary

Podcast Summary: The BEMA Podcast – Episode 489: Vice & Virtue — Justice

Date: December 18, 2025
Host(s): Marty Solomon & Brent Billings, with Reid Dent and Elle
Topic: Exploring Justice as a Biblical Virtue

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the virtue of “justice” in the context of the Bible, offering a deep dive into text, prophetic tradition, and practical application. The conversation is shaped by recent grief over the loss of teammate Josh Bossay, whose life exemplified the pursuit of justice. The hosts challenge prevailing legalistic and punitive concepts of justice, juxtaposing them with the restorative, compassionate biblical vision. They advocate for a proactive embrace of the vulnerable as central to the Kingdom of God.

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[00:00–10:07] Grieving Josh Bossay & the Call to Embodied Justice

• Opening Reflections:
  • Reid and Elle share personal grief over Josh’s death, emphasizing how embodiment, mourning, and creative acts help process loss.
  • Elle highlights three pillars of Josh’s legacy: justice, wrestling (with the text and life), and celebration.
    • “You can’t say Josh’s name without thinking about Shabbat. Wrestling is another one... and the last would be celebration. He embodied the party.” – Elle (03:23)
  • Reid: “He was so good at doing justice in a way that always made us all better when we were done. Never beat up... but I also knew that Josh was like, justice—who needs to experience God’s justice?” (08:38)
• The Tie-in: The episode is set up as a tribute to Josh’s heart for justice, encouraging listeners to approach the virtue in a manner that invites communal change, tenderness, and gratitude.

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[10:16–15:12] Introducing Justice: Stories & Cultural Frames

• Storytelling: Brent tells a story about his son, Briggs, indignantly confronting his parents when they refuse to help a homeless man (12:10). The son’s childlike insistence for action reflects the prophetic impatience with “a world deaf to meaning.”
• Quotation: “How can you pray that God would take care of him when you won’t do anything to help?” – Briggs (13:47)
• Cultural Framing: Marty and Brent discuss popular conceptions of justice (vengeance, Batman-style justice), connecting everyday frustrations to a desire for “the scales to be balanced.” Yet, they signal that biblical justice “mostly has something else in mind.” (17:00)

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[15:12–28:51] Justice in the Prophets – What the Bible Means

• Scripture Analysis:
  • Jeremiah 5: Justice means advocating for the fatherless and poor, not just criminal prosecution. (21:23)
  • Amos 5 & 8: Describes how taxation and exploitation of the poor, even when technically legal, are condemned as injustice.
  • Zechariah 7: Links justice with mercy and compassion, emphasizing the “quartet of the vulnerable”— the widow, fatherless, foreigner, and poor.
    • “To administer true justice is to show mercy and compassion to one another.” (26:36)
• Notable Concept: Nicholas Wolterstorff’s “quartet of the vulnerable” is introduced to frame biblical justice.
• Contrast: Justice is not just about punishing evil-doers (“legal justice”) but is a proactive pursuit (“restorative, social justice”) focused on elevating, incorporating, and protecting the vulnerable.

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[28:51–44:01] Legal vs. Social Justice: The Biblical Center

• Different Types of Justice:
  • Legal/Punitive Justice: Retributive, reactive, focused on criminals, mostly administered through courts.
  • Social/Restorative Justice: Proactive, focuses on integrating the vulnerable; requires daily communal action.
• Prophetic Critique: Abraham Heschel is quoted at length, highlighting the difference between the prophet’s outrage at “minor” injustices and societal apathy.
  • “To us, injustice is injurious to the welfare of the people. To the prophets, it is a death blow to existence.” (34:16; paraphrased)
• Shalom as the Goal: Justice is the action that brings about shalom (communal wholeness), where everyone, especially the vulnerable, is integrated and thriving (41:51).

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[44:01–54:58] Justice in Israel’s Calling & God’s Character

• Biblical Foundations:
  • Genesis 18: Abraham’s family is chosen to “do what is just and right,” blessing all nations (45:04).
  • Deuteronomy 8 & 10: Justice is core to Israel’s remembering God, and even more, to God’s own identity—He “executes justice for the fatherless and the widow.” (50:10)
  • Psalm 146: God is defined by both his creative power and his upholding of the cause of the oppressed, prisoner, hungry, foreigner, and widow (51:31).
• Quote: “Do we remember that him doing justice for the oppressed, the hungry, the foreigner, the fatherless, the widow—Is that something we are as loudly, as passionately leaning into as this is who God is at his very heart?” – Brent (52:02)

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[54:58–65:13] Justice vs. Empty Religion

• Prophets’ Indictment:
  • Jeremiah 22: True knowledge of God is shown in “defending the cause of the poor and needy.” (54:17)
  • Amos 5, Isaiah 1, Micah 6: God explicitly rejects worship when justice is absent:
    • “I hate, I despise your religious festivals... But let justice roll on like a river.” – Amos 5, read at (57:41)
    • “Learn to do right. Seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless...” – Isaiah 1, read at (60:53)
    • Even extravagant offerings mean nothing without acting justly (62:08).
• Faith and Works: Discuss James 1:27— “pure and faultless religion is to look after widows and orphans” (64:10).
• Systems vs. Action: The limits of individual action are acknowledged, but inaction is critiqued as enabling ongoing injustice (65:13).

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[65:13–74:50] Justice, Politics, and the Way of Jesus

• Political Entanglements: The episode calls attention to the ways justice for the vulnerable is often dismissed as merely “political,” countering with the weight of the biblical witness. (65:13; 66:28)
• Punitive vs. Prophetic Justice: Discussion of potential conflicts between legal justice and restorative justice (e.g., immigration enforcement vs. welcoming the foreigner at 66:42).
• Jesus’ Prophetic Stance:
  • Jeremiah 7: Paralleled in Jesus’ cleansing of the temple, where commerce and exploitation, especially of vulnerable festival-goers, are denounced (69:36).
  • Matthew 23: Jesus rebukes those who “tithe mint, dill, and cumin” but neglect “justice, mercy, and faithfulness” (72:30).
    • “You have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy and faithfulness... You strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel.” – Jesus, Matt. 23, read at (72:51)

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[74:50–79:52] Practicing Justice Locally

• Practical Steps:
  • Marty asks how we develop habits of doing justice.
  • Brent recommends:
    • Find local institutions that care for the vulnerable: “Just go there and say, how can I help?” (76:31)
    • Tell stories of his family volunteering in a nursing home, urging starting small and local (77:32).
    • “Don’t worry about trying to solve the whole system. Just say, what can I do with an hour a week?” (78:47)
    • Justice is about daily, humble faithfulness, not heroic perfection.

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[79:52–80:25] Resources & Final Charge

• Resources: Recommends the Bible Project’s “Justice” video.
• Community Challenge: Join with others in small groups or local communities to “do this stuff in community...we need more Briggses out there encouraging us to get out and do the things we should do.” (80:25)

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Notable Quotes

• “To us, injustice is injurious to the welfare of the people. To the prophets, it is a death blow to existence.” (34:16, quoting Heschel)
• “Justice is the actions that bring shalom about.” (41:51)
• “Is that not what it means to know me? Declares the Lord.” (54:58, quoting Jeremiah 22)
• “Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream.” (57:41, quoting Amos 5)
• “If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.” (64:18, quoting James 4)
• “You have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness...You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” (72:51, quoting Jesus, Matt. 23)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [00:00] Grief Processing & Josh Bossay’s Legacy
• [12:10] Brent’s Story: Briggs and the Homeless Man
• [17:55] The Bible’s Broader Vision of Justice
• [26:36] The Quartet of the Vulnerable
• [34:16] Heschel on the Prophets’ Rage (quote)
• [41:51] Shalom: The Goal of Justice
• [45:04] Genesis 18 & Israel’s Mandate
• [52:02] God’s Character as the Just One
• [54:17] Knowing God Means Doing Justice
• [57:41] Amos & Isaiah: Worship Without Justice
• [65:13] Political Complications and Prophetic Priority
• [69:36] Jeremiah 7 & Jesus Cleansing the Temple
• [72:51] Jesus’ Rebuke: Justice, Mercy, and Faithfulness
• [76:31] Practical Advice: Start Local with Justice
• [80:00] Bible Project: Justice (Recommended Resource)

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Episode Takeaways

• Justice, in the biblical sense, is far more than legal punishment; it is a continual, proactive embracing of the vulnerable, central to God’s character and demanded of his people.
• Worship and religious activity are hollow without concrete commitment to justice.
• The challenge is to begin locally, in small communal acts, refusing to let anxiety over the scale of the world’s problems lead to paralysis.
• The memory of Josh Bossay calls the BEMA community—and listeners—to embody justice with humility, celebration, and a willingness to “make other people’s problems our problems.”

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For further learning:
Check the show notes for resources, including the Bible Project’s “Justice” video and ways to find or start a local Beema group.

Transcript

[Reid Dent]

Hey, guys. We're here with this next week's episode and if you were around for last week's episode, you heard Brent and Reid spend some time reflecting on just the passing of and the life of Josh Bossay. We're still in this kind of defined period of mourning and grief and trying to use that time intentionally to think and to reflect and to not just we're going to get back to business as usual, but we don't want to get back to business as usual. And so we're taking a a moment before some of these episodes to just kind of bridge one space to another. And so I'm here with Elle today.

[Brent Billings]

Hello.

[Reid Dent]

You've already had an opportunity on the texting us and your podcast. You've released a couple episodes now that I just thought were really, really great reflections and honoring you got read together this last week. You had some of your thoughts the week before that. So you've already said some really beautiful and amazing things. But where are you at today? We're now a few weeks in. How are you doing? What are the thoughts that either are new or have risen, won't leave you alone? What are some of just anywhere you want to go with that as you sit in this space?

[Elle]

I think how I'm doing right now is still just being aware of how painful it is to be remote from other people who are love Josh and knew Josh. And I know our listeners out there. Maybe they have bama discussion groups that they get to talk about what happened with them. And I hope that that's the case, but maybe that's not the case. Maybe you don't know anybody else who knew Josh. And so there's some affinity there. There's lots of joys about being remote, amazing things about being remote. I can have this job and also have three kids because I'm remote. But so there is an invitation or a challeng to figure out what it looks like to mourn Josh kind of in that remote space on one's own. And creating things I've discovered is one of the ways to do that. So that's why I've been over on textoness. Plugging away, making things is something that has been working for me. Processing through and carving out space. Just like we carve out space for God, can we carve out space for grief and honoring who Josh was and what death means on this side of eternity. And then like if I could wrap up Josh's legacy, which is just off the top of my head. So I'm sure it's not going to. Not going to do it. But when I think about Josh's legacy, the three things that come to mind about, man, what was he really passionate about? Justice, I know, is something that y' all are going to. You're going to talk about in a second. Marty. But Shabbat, certainly you can't say Josh's name without thinking about Shabbat. Wrestling is another one. One of the times we were at, we were all gathered together in Missouri, talked to Josh about, like, what do you think your gifting and calling is? You know, normal conversations you have at somebody's kitchen counter.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And he.

[Elle]

He talked about how he felt like going deep was his calling. Like, he talked about a well, living water in it. And other people can. Sometimes they'll get a little bit in there and then they want to come right back out a little bit in. And he just loves to plumb those depths. And. And he was so gifted at doing that and so comfortable in that space. So wrestling is one for sure. And then the last would be celebration. He was. He embodied the party. You know, read on text and said he was like the Tom Bombadil of the podcast.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes, yes.

[Elle]

So finding ways for me to be like, okay, how did Josh Carbot Shabbat? What did he. What did he do? Can I. Can I do anything that reminds me of Josh, that honors him this particular season? What does wrestling for me look like to honor Josh? What does celebrating look like to honor Josh? So that's what I've been doing. And maybe that's helpful to other people out there on their own, too, who went to do something and aren't sure what that could look like.

[Reid Dent]

Yeah, no, it's really, really well said. I love how much the word embodiment has come up in our conversations, whether it's on the recordings here or just the ones we've had. Because Josh really did embody the things that we love to talk about here in the Bama corners, in the Bama rooms. He really did. I think of the four pillars of Bema. Josh loved the text. Like, he would just study voraciously. He loved. And not just study for learning. Study to be in it. Study to be changed. He discipled people left and right. We're finding out now just how deep his commitments to discipleship were. He loved community, loved people, and therefore loved relationships and fellowship. But he did. He loved wrestling. Like, he embodied so much of which when I thought about expanding the Beima team and inviting these, he was such an easy. When he came to mind, I Was like, of course. And he didn't even listen. Like, he wasn't a foreman guy. He didn't listen to all this stuff. He wasn't. But he embodied what Bama was trying to be. And I do love that. I think grief for me, I keep using words with my spiritual directors and mentors or friends that are checking in on me of, like, I just feel thin.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Tender, like butter spread over too much bread, one might say.

[Reid Dent]

Yeah. Like that. Yeah. And there's. There's a vulnerability to the thinness. There's probably even some danger to be aware of. Like when I. There's times where you feel like you're rooted and you've got a shell of resilience around you that's kind of good. And that's not how I feel. I feel very, very vulnerable, very thin. But also, I'm finding is letting other things in. Like, there's the dangerous things, but there's also things like gratitude.

[Elle]

Yes.

[Reid Dent]

Like, I'm just so. I'm just so more quick to be thankful for others, who Josh was, who others are that are around me now. There's a. There's a heightened sensitivity and awareness of those things to be grateful for. There are gifts that come with this space and my space. I mean, I was in a weird spot because my father passed away just a month prior to Josh, and so I was already in this grief space that kind of compounded itself. And not in a horrible, weighty way, just like, oh, we're going to take another lap around the grief mountain here.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Reid Dent]

And, yeah, in some ways, I was somewhat thankful because I was kind of already swimming in some waters and was able to kind of find somebody else that just got thrown into the pool. And so, yeah, I'm tender. I'm thin spiritually, emotionally, but in a lot of ways, in really good ways. So you mentioned it. We have this episode that lies in front of us is an episode that read the Virtue of Justice. And I just love thinking about Josh as we get ready for this episode, because Josh loved justice. You mentioned it to us.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Reid Dent]

And what I love about Josh is Josh did not have some fiery, angry, prophetic edge to him, but he was not going to dodge. Like, Josh was going to meet. Like, Josh was going to confront you. Not in a cutting way. Josh was going to confront you in a. He was going to just show up and go with you.

[Elle]

Right.

[Reid Dent]

He was not going to speak at you. He was going to join you and then say, we got to walk together sometimes literally, like, Josh and I Used to actually walk often when he moved here to Cincinnati. We would have great conversations, and Josh had hard conversations, often because of his passion for justice. One of the last conversations I had with Josh that was of any length or substance was a phone call that he made to me because he said, you know, he said something during a meeting, and it was in the context of Israel and Israel trips.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reid Dent]

He said, I need to talk to you about whether or not. Did you mean this about Palestinians or this about Gaza or. And it was a. He was not going to. I just loved. And I never. I'm just stumbling with my words here because Josh was so good at it. He was so good at doing justice in a way that always made us all better when we were done. Never beat up. I never felt beat up. But I also knew that Josh was like, justice. Who needs to experience God's justice?

[Elle]

So unusual to have that searing wisdom and insight, to be able to say, I know what system of power that came from.

[Reid Dent]

Yep.

[Elle]

And yet to still greet it with a smile and that sense of home, like, hey, you're safe with me. You're at home with me. And also we're going to talk about how whatever is wild, we're going to need that and not be afraid of it in any way.

[Reid Dent]

Yep, absolutely. So a great setup for today's episode because Josh loved the virtue of justice. And obviously this was recorded long before any of Josh's final chapter or his passing. But it's just I listened to a large portion of this episode and I just thought, man, this was the heart of Josh. So as we listen to it, may we think of him and appreciate much of what he taught us about what it would mean to pursue this virtue.

[Elle]

Amen.

[Marty Solomon]

This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Reed Dent to talk about justice. Let's do it, baby.

[Brent Billings]

So in 2019, our family was in St. Louis for a weekend, and we had a full day to kill on Saturday, which happened also to be the first really gorgeous Saturday of the season. So we had what we thought was this very unique idea of what to do with our day. We went to the zoo, and much to no one's surprise, pretty much everyone else in St. Louis had the same idea. So we're sitting there at the exit ramp for Hampton Avenue off of the highway, and it's one of those situations where you have to wait through, like, three light changes to actually make it through through the intersection because there's just so much traffic and so you're on this exit ramp for a while. And while we're stuck there, here comes a homeless man with a cardboard sign walking up and down the shoulder of the road asking for help. And our then 8 year old son, Briggs, says, dad, there's a homeless guy. Are you going to give him some money? And I said, no, I don't have any money, mom. Are you going to give him some money? She says, no, we don't have anything to give him. And I'm sitting there like I'm just hoping that the light will change and stay green long enough for me to get to the other side of this road so that we can just move on and enjoy the animals at the zoo who have a place to sleep, who have plenty to eat. But of course, no luck. And so we have to wait again. And the man draws nearer again, and Briggs is becoming more worked up, he's becoming more urgent. And he says, well, can you open my window so I can give him my books and he can sell those for money? And I was like, well, those books that you got from the Adair County Library, no, that's probably not a good idea. And then Briggs is shouting, well, are we going to do something for him? And so Leon, my very lovely, wonderful wife, with all of the good intentions and her beautifully good heart, she says, well, we can pray for him. And so she does. And while she's praying there with her eyes closed, I look in the rear view mirror and I see Briggs. And he is just locked on the back of her head, staring daggers at her. But there she is. She's praying something very kind and very gentle, something along the lines of like, we don't know what we can do to help this man, but God, would you please provide for him somehow? Amen. And there is Briggs getting red in the face and he's like shaking, like, with this quiet rage. And he's got this fire in his eyes. And he says to Leanne, how can you even say that? How can you pray that God would take care of him when you won't do anything to help? And now for our daily Heschel, which is actually before our daily beakner. Here's a little surprise sneak in. Heschel attack with a bit from the prophets. He says it's not a world devoid of meaning that evokes the prophet's consternation, but a world deaf to meaning. Their breathless impatience with injustice may strike us as hysteria. We ourselves continually witness acts of injustice, manifestations of hypocrisy, falsehood, outrage, Misery. But we rarely grow indignant or overly excited. To the prophets, even a minor injustice assumes cosmic proportions. The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. God has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. God is raging in the prophet's words, in Briggs's words. And now for our daily beginner. Compassion is the sometimes fatal capacity for feeling what it's like to live inside somebody else's skin. It is the knowledge that there can never really be any peace and joy for me until there is peace and joy finally for you, too.

[Marty Solomon]

I love that story.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, that was from a sermon I did on the Good Samaritan, which has been linked on this podcast before. That was from, like 2019, but I thought it would be good to dig it out because it feels pretty spot on the nose for my 8 year old, like, clearly living in the virtue of justice and being totally aggravated and frustrated when that impulse is being thwarted even by his own parents. There. Yeah, yeah, Here we are. We're talking about the virtue of justice today, Brent, which is not the King's English in which does we still use this word all the time?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, as. As I was maybe hinting at in my intro, we have a particular idea of what justice means, and we get very excited about it.

[Brent Billings]

All right, well, when you say we, who do, do you mean just our culture in general? Okay.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I assume there's a culture section of this podcast that I should probably save it for.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, the whole thing is swimming in culture. Actually today, Brent, is tons of text. Because as we're going to see, this idea is literally everywhere. It's, like, all over the place. But before we get to that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, we could start with the culture conversation of sorts. Like, what are some things that come to mind when we think of justice? Or what are those ideas that you're referring to? What are some things that come to mind?

[Marty Solomon]

Like Gladiator, the movie.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, say more.

[Marty Solomon]

We want the guy who's doing all these things, and we know all the things that he's doing bad. We just want him to get what he deserves.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, so it's like. It's like a holy kind of vengeance. I mean, I think about, like, the vigilante superheroes.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

Who are out there kind of like going against a corrupt system. And typically what that means is like bringing bad guys to justice to. Well, I just said it. What does that mean? Right. They catch them and they're gonna get what's coming to them, Right?

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

So, like, justice Is the virtue of being Batman or being Daredevil or something like that?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And just like. I mean, like, I walk around downtown Moscow most nights and I see all kinds of stuff. And some nights the place is just swarming with cops. They're everywhere. They're doing everything. And then some nights there's nobody in sight. And then you see this guy and it's like 25 miles per hour through downtown Moscow. You see this guy going like 60 miles an hour down the street and it's like, where's the justice for this?

[Brent Billings]

Truly, that's real. That sense of justice is real. Yeah. That there is something that is being done that is, like, unfair or that is injurious to other people.

[Marty Solomon]

And that one. That example, maybe not so injurious, but I.

[Brent Billings]

Well, potentially, though.

[Marty Solomon]

Potentially. Yeah, potentially. But I think of other things. Like, this has happened to me, too. I don't know why people do this. I assume this is not just a University of Idaho thing. I assume this is other places. But, like, people will just drive by people walking and like, three big guys will just, like, lean out the window and just like scream at people.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Just to like, startle you or scare you or whatever.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Like, I just. I wish in those moments that had a huge rock in my hand and I could just throw it and break their car window, you know?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, that would be just.

[Marty Solomon]

But that's not probably what we're talking about.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I mean, yeah, no, it's. It's not going to be what we talk about, but I do want to acknowledge that there is such a thing as that kind of justice. That's just maybe not exactly what the Bible often has in mind when it speaks of justice.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

For me, I was at my son's district semifinal game last night, soccer, and. And we lost heartbreaker, three to two. But, like, there are certain things that. And everybody can relate to this. Who watches sports. Right. The other team just keeps getting away with something and where there's like a foul or some kind of rule breaking going on, and when it's not being properly officiated by the referees or whoever, then you. You have that, like, he can't keep getting. It's that meme, the Jesse meme from Breaking Bad, you know, he can't keep getting away with this. There is something in us that cries out for the scales to be balanced. Yeah, right.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

For a kind of a judgment. And I think when we usually think. And so in terms of theology of God being just, this is usually what we have in mind that he is going to someday balance the cosmic scales and people will get what is owed to them. And then of course, Jesus comes in and like kind of wipes that away. What is owed to you. And I'm not here to like pass judgment on any of that, but again, I think that we have a. Maybe just a short sighted or like more two dimensional view of justice when we say God is just and that is what we mean. Let's dive into the text and get a sense for what we are talking about. When the Bible talks about justice, what it mostly seems to have in mind. And again, this is literally everywhere. It's all over the Bible from the beginning to the middle to the end. So, Brent, how are you feeling about doing some reading today? Because I feel like I've got. Well, I know that I've got a number of passages. And you feel like your vocal cords are up to it.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, Reid, I am ready for it. And here's what I know. A few episodes ago in this series, you made reference to a George McDonald unspoken sermon. And I thought that the reference was really cool. And I was like, I've got this Sunday night thing where I read the Bible and I finished Torah, so I got to figure out something else to do. And I was going to go on to another book of the Bible, but I was like, I don't know. This George McDonald sermon sounds cool. So I decided to get on Instagram and start live streaming and read, perform whatever you call it, this sermon. And I found out why it's actually supposed to be an unspoken sermon. It took me an hour and 15 minutes to read this sermon. So I don't know what you got cooking up here, Reid, with all these passages, but I think I can handle it.

[Brent Billings]

Well, it's not going to be that long. I had no idea that you were going to do that, by the way.

[Marty Solomon]

I didn't know either. I just decided on a whim and I did not apparently think it through well enough.

[Brent Billings]

It probably felt like reading Torah, like in its entirety all over again. I mean, it is kind of.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Let me tell you this though, that you're not alone. Because this is something that we have done at ccf, like with students. Read the entirety of that sermon aloud. So you're not alone.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, you've read that sermon too?

[Brent Billings]

Well, so Derek actually did it. I didn't. I read it. I read a large chunk of it to Derek and then he's like, I'm going to do this with some students. And so they got Together in his office and, you know, drank some tea, and he read this whole thing out loud.

[Marty Solomon]

Wow.

[Brent Billings]

So you're not alone.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay. That actually makes me feel great.

[Brent Billings]

Did anybody watch? Watch you? Listen to you.

[Marty Solomon]

I can't imagine anybody watched the whole thing, but I don't know.

[Brent Billings]

They, like, tune back in. He's still going? Maybe.

[Marty Solomon]

I have no idea.

[Brent Billings]

All right, well, let's do some text. Here's some passages. We'll go one at a time first, just to kind of get a sense of what it is that the Bible has in mind when it talks about justice and injustice. So how about this first one here from Jeremiah, chapter four. Five, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Among my people are the wicked who lie in wait like men who snare birds, and like those who set traps to catch people, like cages full of birds, their houses are full of deceit. They have become rich and powerful and have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit. They do not seek justice. They do not promote the case of the fatherless. They do not defend the just cause of the poor. Should I not punish them for this? Declares the Lord. Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this?

[Brent Billings]

Okay, and so in the prophetic witness, you're going to find this coming up a number of times. So this is like people have settled. They've become a nation, they've become a kingdom, and there is now this kind of injustice going on. And the prophets are often just bringing these indictments against them. And so when in Jeremiah here it says they do not seek justice, then in the next line, that is kind of further described. And so what does that mean to they do not promote the case of the fatherless. So to promote the case of the fatherless is a kind of justice. And it says they do not defend the just cause of the poor. So to promote the case of the fatherless and to defend the cause of the poor is what Jeremiah has at least in mind, in part, when it comes to what justice is. And so notice here, and we'll come back to this, but just put in this for a second that this injustice is not like there's necessarily a crime that's being committed, but rather, there are the fatherless and the poor who are not being advocated for. They're not being stood up for. And that is a kind of injustice. Okay, so let's go into then, Amos, chapter five.

[Marty Solomon]

There are those who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground. There are those who hate the one who upholds justice in court and detest the one who tells the truth. You levy a straw tax on the poor and impose a tax on their grain. There are those who oppress the innocent and take bribes and deprive the poor of justice in the courts.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, so there's a little bit of a picture of what that justice looks like with levying these taxes on the poor. And that tax may not necessarily be strictly illegal, but it is making. You know, it's just imagine, like, making tough times tougher for those who are already poor and just trying to, like, extract from them what you can get. And then actually in Amos 8, Amos goes on to describe it even more. And this is a more famous passage, but I want to put it in here to try to connect again. So the word justice is not used in this passage, but it's this same idea being sort of evoked or brought into more and more detail. So let's hear Amos 8.

[Marty Solomon]

Brent. Hear this. You who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land, saying, when will the new moon be over, that we may sell again and the Sabbath be ended, that we may market wheat, skimping on the measure, boosting the price and cheating with dishonest scales, buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat. The Lord has sworn by himself the pride of Jacob. I will never forget anything they have done.

[Brent Billings]

What do you hear in there, Brent? How do you hear that?

[Marty Solomon]

I'm just thinking about those specific images of selling even the sweepings with the wheat, like you're selling me the dust from your product. It's so petty.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Okay, go ahead. What does it tell you about the mindset or the heart of the person who's doing this?

[Marty Solomon]

It's disgustingly greedy.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Trying to maximize a profit. Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Like I was thinking on the Amos 5 passage, the straw tax on the poor, the impose a tax on their grain, like, this is a subsistence society. Everyone is barely making it. They are just gathering enough to survive, and then you're taxing them on that. It's cruel.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So the idea. And again, like, I mean, I'm. We live in a system built on capitalism that would say that, you know, it's probably your fair right to get the profit you can get, you know, and that's not necessarily illegal. Now, there are definitely exploitative, illegal ways of, like, you know, doing the system. But my question to consider here is, like, is the sense of justice here that is being offended? Is it necessarily a matter of legality, or is it possible for the injustice to Go deeper than that. That has to do specifically with these people who are designated as poor, who are designated as needy, who are designated as fatherless. Let's go one more here before we talk for a second. And this is from Zechariah, chapter 7.

[Marty Solomon]

And the word of the Lord came again to Zechariah. This is what the Lord Almighty. Administer true justice, show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other.

[Brent Billings]

Isn't that interesting that to administer true justice is to show mercy? I think there are some theological schools that always want to pit these two things, these two, you know, call them characteristics of God, sort of against each other.

[Marty Solomon]

Right, right.

[Brent Billings]

That God is just, but God is also merciful. And yet Zechariah here is holding them exactly together and overlapping them and saying, to administer true justice is to show mercy and compassion to one another. And then specifically, it is not to oppress the widow, the fatherless, the foreigner, or the poor. So there's a theologian, I believe he's out of Yale, named Nicholas Wolterstorff, who kind of coined this term the quartet of the vulnerable. You ever heard this term before?

[Marty Solomon]

I have not.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, so he. He termed it the quartet of the vulnerable, which is his way of sort of this category of people who are often, like, the object of exploitation of injustice. And that to do justice is to make sure that these four fatherless, widow, foreigner, and poor, to make sure that they are included into the community, that they are protected within the community. And so, again, we're going to get to this. But, like, justice isn't just about whether laws are being followed or not. Like, injustice isn't just defined in, like, this purely negative sense of, you did something wrong, but it can also be defined in this sense of there is something that is lacking, that needs some kind of positive action to be filled in, to be taken care of. Is that tracking?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I think of, like, the law about leaving the corners of your field uncut. It doesn't define what a corner is. And I think most of this is like you are pushing your field to the bleeding edge of the definition of a corner. Like, sure, that is technically a corner that you have left, but you have no compassion, you have no mercy for.

[Brent Billings]

This quartet, which then would be called, I think, injustice.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

To not leave that corner untouched is a kind of injustice. So let's do a little. Maybe we'll get to this Heschel quote here in a minute, but let's just Do a little bit of compare and contrast, then. So we have these two senses of justice that we're talking about. One is what we'll call, like, legal justice, and the other is what we will call, for lack of a better term, social justice. And if you're somebody who hears that term and you're, like, getting upset at me even saying it, just listen to. Try to hear me out. Try to hear what we're talking about. This is not about some kind of, like, ideology or political whatever. This is just about trying to discern what is the Bible talking about and what are we being asked to think about when we think about justice. So there's the one side, Right. Where we got legal justice, and this is mostly like a kind of punitive justice. I mean, think about, like, our criminal justice system, Brent. Like, what is the way that we deal with criminal doing? Like, how do we render justice typically?

[Marty Solomon]

If you mean by punishments, then I'm thinking jail time, maybe fines or community service.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Some kind of parole situation. The way that that is laid out is through a court system.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Marty Solomon]

Sometimes it's just a judge, sometimes there's a jury of your peers.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So. Well, that's an interesting observation, because I think that it's oftentimes not something that involves most of us. Right. Like, it's. It's for the lawyers, it's for the police officers, it's for the judges. Um, and this kind of legal system, while we benefit from it, for sure that it's not something that really necessarily implicates us very frequently. For. For most of us, it's based on a sort of retributive principle that is like, okay, well, if you steal something of value, then in order to sort of recoup the loss of that value, you have to. I mean, maybe you have to at least pay it back, or then you maybe have to do some jail time or some community service. And this is our conception of, like, what it means to. Then justice has been served. When again, this is like, the scales have been balanced. We're balancing the scales. This legal justice is also, I noticed it is reactive. So you are reacting to something that has already happened, to a wrong that has been done. And the object of this legal justice, this sense of legal justice, is, I would think, those who break the law, criminals, that is who it focuses on. This other way of talking about justice that we are seeing through Zechariah and through Amos and through Jeremiah is a different kind. And I think it has to do. Or it's called social justice or we can call it that because this very much has to do with the way that a society is constituted and kind of like who is currently benefiting and safe and in, and then who is not, who is being excluded from that. And maybe they're being excluded intentionally or maybe unintentionally, but either way, they're on the out. And so the object of this kind of justice, that is the prophetic justice, are people not who are criminals, but people who are vulnerable, people who are easy to exploit, people who maybe there's a sensibility that's like, nobody's really going to care anyway, because, like, they're not really. They're not producers or creators in the society. They're just, you know, they're. They're better left out there. Actually, this is where I want to bring in the Heschel quote, because he's got this long bit in his book the Prophets at the very beginning when he's talking about how peculiar it is that the prophets get so worked up over this kind of injustice and that. Like, you know, presumably, shouldn't they be way more mad about, like, murders or something like that, or about, you know, the unfair officiating at the soccer match, et cetera? But he says they're actually getting worked up. And he. He writes this. He says, the world is a proud place, full of beauty. But the prophets are scandalized and rave as if the whole world were a slum. They make much ado about paltry things, lavishing excessive language upon trifling subjects. What if somewhere in ancient Palestine, poor people have not been treated properly by the rich? Why such intense indignation? The things that horrified the prophets are even now daily occurrences all over the world. Indeed, the sort of crimes and even the amount of delinquency that fill the prophets of Israel with dismay do not go beyond that which we regard as normal, as typical ingredients of social dynamics. To us, a single act of injustice, cheating in business, exploitation of the poor, is slight to the prophets, a disaster to us. Injustice is injurious to the welfare of the people. To the prophets, it is a death blow to existence, to us an episode, to them a catastrophe, a threat to the world. So I think it's worth pointing out that the objects of scorn or the. No, the reasons for dismay in the prophet's mind are things that Heschel is, I think, rightly saying to us, it's just sort of like, so what? Who cares? Like, that's just part of doing business. That's just social dynamics. That's just Normal stuff. That if there is somebody who is. If there is a fatherless person who is left unprotected, or if there is a poor person who is left in need, that's just kind of how things go. And I think there's maybe even some of this sensibility, honestly, in that story with Briggs behind my. Like, I just want to get through the light, you know, and I want to be done with this situation and move on with my day and see the drafts, because it's like it's. It shows deep down. It's really not that important to me. And yet Briggs has tapped into something there that is this. There is a catastrophic threat to the world here in that this person is being ignored, that this person who is down is being left on the outskirts. So that when we use the word restorative for justice as opposed to retributive, this is what is actually in mind. That these people who are on the out and who are exploited or oppressed or just vulnerable, that they would be restored to a proper place within the community and elevated to that place where they can be included and protected and enjoy all of the same kind of stability that the rest of us enjoy. I got a question for you, Brent, and I don't have a right answer for this in my mind. I'm just curious. When you think about this sense of legal justice and you think about this sense of prophetic justice, what do you think are maybe some things that kind of fuel the desire for each of these kinds of justice in us? Does that question make sense?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I think in the retributive form of justice that we all kind of long for, I think it's just so easy to see something happen and realize that nobody in a position of authority seemingly has seen what has happened, and then somebody's getting away with something that they shouldn't, and that feels gross, and we feel like something should be done.

[Brent Billings]

About it, and this is right. I think this is a good thing in us, that there is a sense of, like, things are supposed to be a certain way, and this person is maybe actively intentionally flaunting that or skirting that. Right. Or they are distorting it, and something needs to be done about that, that the thing needs to be put right, but also they need to somehow come to account for it.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

And that's not a bad thing. Not a bad thing.

[Marty Solomon]

The other side, the restorative justice, I think a huge problem is just a lack of vision, like your story. You didn't want to see the problem because you knew if you actually stopped and looked at the problem, that you would feel compelled to address it. We have another interview with Sandra Richter coming up, and it's not about this book, but I knew she had a book called Stewards of Eden, and I just wanted to read it, so I started reading into that. And one of the things that she talks about in that book is the exploitation of the environment. And we are supposed to utilize the environment. She's not saying, like, we all need to just go hungry and do nothing and never step on a blade. Like, it's not like that. But the exploitation of the environment most affects this group of this quartet of the vulnerable. I love that phrase. And a lot of it is people that we don't see. Like, what choices have I made that have led to, in some way or another, the deforestation of Madagascar? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe something, maybe not. It's hard to say. Global supply and demand is difficult to untangle. But at the end of the day, when the more powerful exploit their resources, the people who suffer the most is this quartet of the vulnerable. I think it's a matter of. Yeah, it's a matter of not seeing the problem. And I think most people are actually compassionate in some way, merciful in some way. And if they could see what the effects are. And it's impossible, really, but if people could see the effects, they would make different choices. I believe that.

[Brent Billings]

This reminds me a little bit of our conversation on Acedia with Josh, where you can be overwhelmed by feeling like you have to fix every problem in the world.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

And sometimes it's easier just not to look. But I do think it's interesting that this is just an observation that I have that, like I said before, that familiar sense of legal justice probably doesn't implicate or require anything of many of us most or even all of the time. Right. That's for people in the court system, in the justice system. But this kind of justice that has to do with elevating the vulnerable, I think it does implicate us, or at least it should. And that I would suggest that if we imagine that it never does, that it never does implicate us. And I think the reason why it implicates us, by the way, is because it's not reactive, but it's proactive. Where, like, nobody is. I mean, well, God is. But nobody is mandating that I go and I help that person who is in need. The fatherless, the poor, the widow.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Law does not require me to bring them into my home to Invite them into my community. But the sense of justice does actually then implicate that I should do something about that now to what this is left to each of us to discern. And again with the recognition, you cannot solve systems of injustice. You cannot solve everything. But I think too often we use that as an excuse to say, well, we can't do anything about it. You know, I remember even like saying that to trying to explain that to 8 year old Briggs in the car was like, well, even if I give him some money, like that's really not going to solve the problem because it's like a systemic problem. And I'm like, why am I saying these words to my 8 year old one? Because it's silly. That doesn't make any sense to him. But also it is a way of deflecting from my present responsibility, which is in this moment, maybe I am called to somehow execute justice for this person. I mean, this is why I read the, the quote on compassion from Beechner at the beginning. It's not a quote about justice, it's a quote about compassion. But I do think that. I'm glad you said that word, Brent, that this is actually what sort of gets us in gear. You know, in the, the Good Samaritan story it says that the Samaritan, the one who administered justice, which it doesn't use that word in the parable, but this is the idea that the Samaritan had compassion, which is like that. It's a Greek word that just means to be moved, like in your gut, like a gut level wrenching for whatever it is that you are seeing and that compels you then to actually do something about it. I think also there is a sense that things are not what they should be in this prophetic kind of justice, the social justice as well. Not in the sense that like, you know, somebody has broken a law and they've gotten away with it, but that there is a, there's a condition or like a state that we're going for that we're not there yet and we want to get to. So you know the word, right? Like what do we call Brent? What do we. And what does the Bible call that desired state of things? Like that sort of fundamental condition of the kingdom of God is what?

[Marty Solomon]

Shalom.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, shalom, which we translate as peace. Peace, but not peace in the sense of like I'm just Zen and I'm sitting there and nothing is bothering me.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

But shalom in the sense of it's a state in which everyone, and especially I think The Bible would say, especially the vulnerable, everyone is integrated and supported in the community. Like, think about a jigsaw puzzle, and when all of the pieces are where they belong, then the puzzle has reached shalom. It's complete.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, right.

[Brent Billings]

And you see the whole picture and not shalom is some of those pieces. And this is where the fatherless, the widow, the poor, the immigrant, the alien, they are not incorporated. They are not where they should be. They're out of place. They're just drifting off somewhere. And so that is a kind of injustice. And so then, like, bringing me finally around to how do I define justice and what does it mean to have the virtue of justice, biblically speaking? So if shalom is the state in which it's the state of the kingdom of God, justice is the actions that bring shalom about. And so to have the virtue of justice is to be somebody who is habitually doing the things that make for this kind of peace. Or maybe another way of saying it is like the virtue of being willing or of actually making other people's problems my problems. How can I make this person's problem mine so that I can again incorporate them, bring them up to a place where they are able to thrive in the same way that I am able to thrive? That is what is justice. And so I think the kind of the bama ism we've talked about, some of the bama isms for these different virtues, I would say that this is the one that is about kingdom versus empire, because the defining characteristic in the main distinction between kingdom and empire, like, how do you tell them apart? You look at how the vulnerable are treated, right? And if you see these quartet of the vulnerable being treated in a way that is just biblically speaking, then it's kingdom. But if they are being exploited, if they are being oppressed or. And I would say even if they are being ignored, this is going back to the. Was it the Jeremiah passage? Their case is not being promoted.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Their justice is not being defended. In that case, I would say then, okay, this looks more like empire than like kingdom.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Are the vulnerable in the center of the camp surrounded by everyone else? Or are they shoved outside the city walls down in the valley where you dump the trash?

[Brent Billings]

Again, this is everywhere. This is everywhere in the Bible. I was thinking about our conversation about the wandering in the wilderness and the gathering of manna, and some people have to gather more for the ones who cannot gather for themselves. It's all throughout. And actually, I want to go back to the text. So let's do some more text. And I want to show first that doing justice, again, this is not about some kind of ideology or political ideology. This is about what is very core, at the very core of our mission, of the people, of God's mission and identity from the very beginning. And so here is, Brent, a passage from Genesis 18, after the covenant has been made with Abram, and he is now Abraham. And this is God speaking of Abraham.

[Marty Solomon]

And he says, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him so that he will direct his children and his household after him and to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised.

[Brent Billings]

And of course, this is also post story of making the bread and the hospitality, Right?

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

God has seen that something is already. Something in Abraham is already going this direction. So here is somebody I can work with who is going to do what is right and what is just. And not just. Just in the sense of we're going to make sure that the criminals receive what's coming to them, but just in the sense of the people who are vulnerable are going to be incorporated. They're going to be taken care of. You know this famous phrase, all the nations on earth will be blessed through him. That this is the way that the world comes to flourishing and fruition is through Abraham and this people that is going to come from him. Well, and of course, why? Because they are going to do what is just. That's Abraham. That's at the very beginning then in Deuteronomy, when the people are about to go into the land that has been promised them, they've been brought out of slavery in Egypt. They've been wandering around. I'm sure that people get tired of me referencing Deuteronomy chapter 8, because I'm just now realizing that I do it kind of a lot on this podcast. But this passage is huge for me because I actually think that we are the people who are, you know, in the situation that Moses is forecasting here. And I think we're running the risk of doing the very forgetting that he is warning against. But let's. Let's hear Deuteronomy chapter eight right here.

[Marty Solomon]

Brett, when you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied when you build fine houses and settle down, and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord, your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

[Brent Billings]

Notice I think there is a deeper level here to forgetting God than just, well, we stopped having our quiet time because it says failing to observe his commands, his laws, that's actually mishpatit. His mishpat. The justice. Failing to observe his justice. And of course, this makes sense because if you have everything, the warning is not like that. It's necessarily bad to have silver and gold and to have your flocks grow large and your herds increase. That in itself is not the problem. But that when you're in that situation, if it becomes just about those things for your own sake, and that is not being leveraged for the sake of the vulnerable among you in any way ever, then you will have forgotten God. And this is especially disastrous and darkly ironic because God brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. This is something that is connected to your past. You were once people who were like this. And so don't become somebody who forgets people who are in that situation still. And this is difficult, I think, for us in our present situation to keep in mind, because many of us in our country don't actually come from a place of, like, material oppression. Some of us do. Not all of us do. My crowd that I, you know, the church that I grew up in, there was not a lot of that. And so because we were not able to relate to a sense of material oppression, we made this completely spiritual. Right. And it was just about like, well, we were in spiritual bondage, which. Yes, and amen. True enough. But the problem with only thinking about it like that is if it's just a spiritual bondage that you relate to, then people who are in a material bondage, they don't enter your radar. You're not thinking about them in terms of, like, what is it that God wants you to do in the world. You think everything is just a matter of some kind of spiritual crusade where you're just out there to make sure that you don't. You tell everybody the good news and they get into heaven.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And it's so difficult to have that perspective. Like, just to acknowledge, like, even if you get out of your own church and go visit another church, those people are still probably pretty similar to you. Even if you get out of your town and go to another part of the state, you might start to see some distinctions here and there, but you're not living in that other community. And then if you go even further and go to some other part of the world, well, you're probably going to a vacation destination. So that's pretty nice. But are you getting out of that? Like, probably not. It's so hard to see what life is like for other people. So it takes work.

[Brent Billings]

There's an even deeper fundamental layer to this that is not do justice just because you were rescued out of a situation of injustice, but also because this sense of justice and you know, the protection of the quartet of the vulnerable is something that is core to the identity of God himself. So this from Deuteronomy 10.

[Marty Solomon]

Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today. Circumcise your hearts therefore, and do not be stiff necked any longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of Lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, so there is the you were it, so you do it. But also God does it. Where it says he defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow. Well, first of all, that's executes justice. Again, he does mishpat for the fatherless and the widow. God himself does that. God is being personified here in the passage, right? God does not accept bribes like a corrupt judge. And God also executes justice for the fatherless and the widow. And so because this is something God does, you do it. And then there's another passage. It may sound like repeating, but I want to hear this one from Psalm 146, because I think it kind of even maybe a little bit more illuminates how this virtue of justice is core to the person of God. So can you give us this 1 from Psalm 146?

[Marty Solomon]

Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord, their God. He is the maker of heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them. He remains faithful forever. He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free. The Lord gives sight to the blind. The Lord lifts up those who are bowed down. The Lord loves the righteous. The Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not trying to make this like a super political thing, but when I hear that last stanza, the Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the way of the wicked. It is hard not to hear that very. Not for that to just be very palpable in this present moment that we are in. When it says that God upholds the cause of the oppressed, there again he does justice, he does mishpat for the oppressed, gives food to the hungry. And we're so quick to acknowledge that Creator is. Who would dispute that Creator is at the very core of who God is and of what God does. And that's why I love this psalm, because it begins there. This passage begins there. He is the maker of heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them, that his faithfulness to us, his hesed. Is it actually that may not be that. That's not that word. That word is I probably, Emmett, which is like his. His truth or his loyalty? I don't know for sure anyway. But these things are all like, yes, this is who God is. But do we remember that him doing justice for the oppressed, the hungry, the foreigner, the fatherless, the widow. Is that something that we are as loudly, as passionately leaning into as this is who God is at his very heart? Or is it easier for us to set that aside when convenient? Maybe because, like you said, we don't want to be implicated in. What would that mean? We have to do. You know what I'm saying?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Again, this is literally everywhere. It is everywhere in the Bible. It's all over the place. One last point here from the text. Some would say, oh, Reed, that's just a works thing. That's like a good works thing. But really what we are about is having like a personal relationship with God. That's what we need to focus on. And then if you like, you know, are somebody who feels especially called to be a person of this kind of justice, well, then that's like a call for you, but the person, the main thing for all of us, like, let's keep the main thing. The main thing. And that's like, have a personal relationship with God and to them. How about this passage here from Jeremiah 22, Brent?

[Marty Solomon]

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness, his upper rooms by injustice, making his own people work for nothing, not paying them for their labor. He says I will build myself a great palace with spacious upper rooms. So he makes large windows in it, panels it with cedar, and decorates it in red. Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar? Did not your father have food and drink? He did what was right. And just so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and the needy. And so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me? Declares the Lord.

[Brent Billings]

I just think of all the worship songs we sing, you know. Yeah, I just want to know you. I want to know you more. And I love the worship songs, right? But that we think that that is what it is to know God is to just sing really fervently that we want to know God and then we can somehow leave this other thing to the side. And here the prophet says to the king, is what makes you a king having more, More and more cedar, you know, a bigger house, a nicer thing. Like, is that. Is that what this is about for you? And then he reminds him of his lineage. Didn't your father. He had food and drink, he did what was right and just. And then it says, he did justice for the poor and the needy. Is that not what it means to know me? It's not an either or, it's a both. And if it's a Venn diagram, it's just two circles that are completely overlapped. The personal relationship with God, quote, unquote, is to do justice for the poor and the needy. Which just sounds a lot like when Jesus says, of course, whenever you did this to one of the least of these, you were doing it to me. This is how you know me, this is how you find me, is in this kind of company. And if you are never keeping this kind of company, if you don't ever let it become your business to let your path cross with someone who is vulnerable, fatherless, widow, oppressed, poor, needy, then I'm not trying to cast too much aspersion or too much judgment here. I really don't want to be judgmental. I want to be sympathetic. But it seems maybe like the least we can say here is that there is definitely something of God that we do not know when we are not people of justice. And of course, this. I got more. We got more Bible Brent. Sorry. I mean, this is just Bible day. It's kind of funny because these other virtues, they're, you know, like we go looking for. Where are some texts that kind of exemplify this? Where do we learn about this in the text? And here it's just it is the text. It is just. It's all over. But the question is, and I think a lot of our listeners will already know this, but you know, we would be remiss to do an episode on justice and not talk about this. How does God feel about an abundance of religious devotion when justice is absent? How about some Amos, chapter five here, Brent?

[Marty Solomon]

I hate.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, that's how God feels. That's a pretty strong indicator. We're off with some strong vocabulary. How does God feel about an abundance of religious devotion when justice is absent? Sorry, I want to interrupt you again.

[Marty Solomon]

Go ahead. I hate. I despise your religious festivals. Your assemblies are a stench to me. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs. I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river. Righteousness like a never failing stream.

[Brent Billings]

You know, my charismatic upbringing, there was a lot of talk of, like, dead religion, you know, and we need to be people who are, like, actually, genuinely alive in the spirit. But this is not saying, like, stop your religious festivals because just do it from the heart. Like, you don't need the customs of man and the traditions of religion, so just do it. This is. That's not. Not what it's saying. The religious festivals are completely valid. They're completely good. I mean, God was the one who gave it to the people to do. The problem is let justice roll on like a river. There is no justice. There is no mishpat. We've already read the passages from Amos about how they're exploiting the cause of the poor and they're trampling on them for more gain. They're ignoring their plight so they can maximize their profitability. That is injustice. God says. That's when I don't want to hear your songs. I don't want your fasts. I don't want your worship services and your sermons. I don't want any of it. Let justice roll. Let righteousness like a never failing stream. Righteousness just meaning here. To be rightly related to one another, to be fair and equitable with each other. That's righteousness. This is not some, like, ethereal theological moral quality. It's just rightness between people.

[Marty Solomon]

Some gathered little, some gathered much. But then when it was all said and done, everybody had enough. That's what we're looking for here. That's righteousness.

[Brent Billings]

Yes, that is righteousness. All right, let's See what our most major of major prophets, Isaiah, has to say about this at the very beginning of the scroll.

[Marty Solomon]

The multitude of your sacrifices, what are they to me? Says the Lord. I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals. I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats when you come to appear before me. Who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts, stop bringing meaningless offerings. Your incense is detestable to me. New moons, sabbaths, and convocations I cannot bear. Your worthless assemblies, your new moon feasts, and your appointed festivals, I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me. I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you. Even when you offer many prayers. I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood. Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight. Stop doing wrong. Learn to do right. Seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.

[Brent Billings]

So again, this is not just God suddenly being like, you know what I don't like? You know, I don't like your cultic system. I don't like your sacrifices and your assemblies. No, although he's saying I hate it with all my being. But the reason is because they are. He says, stop bringing meaningless offerings. Well, what makes it meaningless is there is an absence of doing right, of justice mishpat for the oppressed. So the corrective here is not, you know, keep going, but mean it more.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, right.

[Brent Billings]

The corrective is defend the oppressed, take up the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. Why? Because this, as we just said before, this is core to the identity of God, and it is core to the identity of the people as ones who were already rescued out of oppression. Even like our our very Most famous Micah 6, 8. What does the Lord require of you? We do this one kind of in a vacuum to act justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with your God. But let's get a little bit that comes before that. Let's start a couple verses earlier. Brent Micah 6 starting in verse 6.

[Marty Solomon]

With what shall I come before the Lord and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams with 10,000 rivers of olive oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body, for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O Mortal, what is good and what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

[Brent Billings]

So even if you gave the most valuable thing that you had as an act of worship, even if you gave your firstborn, even if you gave 10,000 rivers of olive oil, which is truly.

[Marty Solomon]

Preposterous to think about, right?

[Brent Billings]

Truly preposterous. But even if you brought every single thing, if you are not acting justly and loving mercy, which we have already seen, are actually overlapped. These are not two opposing things. But to do justice is to show mercy for those who are vulnerable. If that is not present, it doesn't matter what you bring. That is what God is looking for. That is what it means to walk humbly with God. And so that is why we get that summary verse that a lot of us know in Hosea 6. For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. I would say here again, pulling from our Jeremiah passage that we just read in chapter 22, where it says, is not this to know me? I think what God is getting at, the mercy that God desires rather than sacrifice, is consistent with all these other passages that we've been reading. It is to take up the cause, to do justice, that is to acknowledge God. If you're not doing that, I don't want your burnt offerings. I don't want anything else. I don't know how much more we need. I mean, I've got more. I've got more from. From Jeremiah.

[Marty Solomon]

You've got a reference to James here.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. So what James calls pure and faultless religion is to look after the widows and the orphans in their distress. Like, that's stated pretty plainly.

[Marty Solomon]

And I was actually thinking about a different part of James earlier when you were talking about the overwhelming nature of the problem. And it's like, well, I can't solve. I can't. Whatever we have to give the guy in our car right now, it's not going to solve the problem, Briggs. So we don't have anything we can do for this guy. And the James passage is talking about, like, what are you worried about today or tomorrow, all these plans? Like, you have no idea what any of that stuff's going to be. Just worry about today. It ends. This is chapter four. It ends with, if anyone then knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them we can't solve. None of us can solve all of the problems we have to do what's in front of us. And hopefully if everyone does what's in front of them, then we solve the problem. But none of us can do it all on our own. But if we get discouraged by that, then we don't do anything, and then we've got a real problem.

[Brent Billings]

We're going to do the next passage, too, which is a little lengthy, but it's also From Jeremiah, chapter 7. A thing has happened in many of our churches that has somehow made the issue of doing justice for these vulnerable people. It has made it this weird political movement and ideology that gets lumped in with a whole bunch of other things. I don't know what. And it all becomes a reason to just kind of dismiss it and to say, well, we don't have to worry about that. That's just being woke or whatever. I don't care about any of that. I'm just saying, like, here is Micah. Here is Isaiah. Here is Jeremiah. Here is. Did I already say Isaiah? Here is Amos. Here is the Psalms. Here is Deuteronomy. Here is Genesis. Here is, like, so many passes. Here is James. And we haven't even gotten to Jesus yet, but we will.

[Marty Solomon]

That's another thing in the Stewards of Eden book. Like, Sandra Richter opens the book and she's like, look, a lot of you are going to come to this and you're going to think this is some political issue where it's like, oh, if you're an environmentalist, and that means you're this political affiliation, this. You're this religious affiliation, you're this whatever. It's like, I'm not concerned about that at all. It's probably not even right. But, like, that's not what I'm concerned about. Here's what the text says about it, and that's what we're trying to do here.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And we. And we think that, like, we are people of justice because of our, like, overemphasis on the legal justice. Like, we think we are people of justice because we're like, well, yeah, we're catching the bad guys and we're putting them in jail, you know?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know. Maybe Marty doesn't want me to say this on the episode. We can maybe cut this part. But here's a question that I have, like, a genuine question is, are there ever times when punitive justice and prophetic justice are at odds? Like, what happens if a foreigner among you breaks a law? And what if they're breaking that law to take care of their family? Because they don't have any other options? Or what if they. What if they break the law simply by being within your borders because they are seeking a better life, and so they deserve some kind of punitive justice by the laws of the land. But biblical justice would say, no, you need to take them in and take care of them and treat them fairly among you. And so, again, like, I don't. We made. We may just cut that part out. I don't know. But it seems to me like that's an important question for anybody who is hearing what we are saying and is like, oh, no, but we are about. You know, we're. We're catching the guys who are breaking the laws. That's what real justice is. I'm like, well, if there's other senses of justice, like, how do you decide which one is going to get more weight? Which one is going to be the thing that drives you? And I guess all I can say is, like, the weight of the prophetic witness over and over and over and over again, seems to be that, like, justice, which is mercy, which is fueled by compassion for these vulnerable people, needs to be the thing that you are about. And this is what God is about. Okay, so let's read Jeremiah 7.

[Marty Solomon]

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord. Stand at the gate of the Lord's house, and there proclaim.

[Brent Billings]

Wait, hold on. Stop. Sorry. What is the Lord's house, Brent?

[Marty Solomon]

Is it the temple in this case?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, the temple. Stand at the gate of the temple. This is the place where people are coming to do their sacrifices, et cetera, et cetera, and they're the various festivals and whatnot. So stand at the gate of the Lord's house and proclaim this message.

[Marty Solomon]

Go ahead, hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. Do not trust in deceptive words and say, this is the temple of the Lord. The temple of the Lord. The temple of the Lord. If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place. And if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors forever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn Incense to BAAL and follow other gods you have not known. And then come and stand before me in this house which bears my name and say, we are safe. Safe to do all these detestable things. Has this house which bears my name become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching, declares the Lord.

[Brent Billings]

That last line sound like anything you've heard before? Has it become a den of robbers to you?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

What does that sound like?

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, Jesus talks about that.

[Brent Billings]

Where does he talk about that?

[Marty Solomon]

It's just not fair to test me like this, Reid.

[Brent Billings]

I'll give you a hint. It's right here in this passage. It is the very place where this message is being said. Like where Jeremiah is told to proclaim this message, which is where. What's the Lord's house?

[Marty Solomon]

He's at the temple.

[Brent Billings]

He's at the temple. Do you remember that story where. What does he do mean Jesus comes out? And you remember the guys are. They're doing what in the temple courts?

[Marty Solomon]

Is this the cleansing of the temple?

[Brent Billings]

You bet it is. Because what are they doing?

[Marty Solomon]

They're selling.

[Brent Billings]

And historically, we know. I think you guys have. We've talked about this on the podcast before, but at the time of the festivals, people would come in and they would inflate prices to try to exploit those who were traveling, who maybe were already, like, on a shoestring budget. It's like, oh, well, you want to participate in the sacrifices, you want to participate in the festivals. Like, here you go. And so they're marking things up, inflating to try to make a profit off of them when they are just coming because they want to worship. And Jesus says, this has become a den. He's. He's talking about this. And when he talks about this, he's bringing in this whole context and he's saying, don't come. What happens. Brent, this passage is a case study in what happens when you use religion as a shield to hide behind or as a mask to hide behind, to actually ignore the very thing that God tells you to do. Because in this passage, again, and there's two different times, he said, do not trust in deceptive words and say, this is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, as if to say, hey, we're just here in the house of God. We're worshiping. That's what this is about. As if that, like, actually, because it is happening there, as if that makes it something that God is okay with, or are you really going to act in all these ways and come before me in this house that bears my name and say we are safe, as in like, nothing can touch us because we're here. And God's like, you are sorely mistaken. You have let this place become a den of robbers because you are not dealing justly with each other. You're oppressing the foreigner, the fatherless, the widow. You're shedding innocent blood. And you're also, it also is a matter of piety, by the way. You're following after other gods, you're worshiping other gods. All of that is lumped in together, but the justice, the mishpat for the foreigner and the fatherless and the widow is as much a part of it as the BAAL worship. Like all of that is lumped in together with what God expects of us. And so yes, when Jesus comes in and says those words that you have made this, it's supposed to be a house of prayer, but you've made it into a den of robbers, like this is exactly what he is getting at. And then just two chapters later in Matthew, as he's like now on a crash, he's on a collision course to passion, to crucifixion. He says there in Matthew 23, this is the last one I'm going to have you read, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites, you give a tenth of your spices, mint, dill and cumin, but you have neglected the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides, you strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel.

[Brent Billings]

You have neglected the more important or the weightier matters of the law. I think what God wants from us, what it means to be the image of God, is what we've been talking about this whole time. And maybe this is really the only self examination question that we need, and that is in what ways have we become a people who are experts in tithing our mint and our dill and our cumin and keeping up the various processes of religion? In what ways have we done that to the even maybe to the detriment of the weightier matters, which are justice, which are again mishpat, and mercy and faithfulness, which I think he's actually getting at Micah 6, 8 right here. Yeah, to act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly. Or I would say that is faithfulness. And so yeah, to what extent have we let being people who do the things that make for shalom real Shalom for even the most vulnerable among us. In what ways have we let that fall by the wayside? And have we even tried to say, oh, we're safe? This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord. We're still giving our mint, our dill and our cumin. And to us, I think Jesus would just say, don't let go of that part. Keep doing that. Keep doing your prayers, keep doing your fasts, keep doing your revivals, keep doing your worship nights, keep doing your Bible studies and all of that. But if you're going to be people who actually bear the image of God in all of its many varied splendor, that are people not just of wisdom and not just of faith and not just of hope, but who are also people of justice, then you have to take up the cause of these other people who are vulnerable in your midst. And I think that's really all I have.

[Marty Solomon]

I have one question, one practical question for you. How do we get into the habit of doing this? Because I think part of the problem with seeing the guy on the side of the road, especially when we don't have an 8 year old Briggs in the backseat trying to encourage us, because like the other day I was doing a PRD personal retreat day, which we do every month, a very privileged position to be in. Most people don't get that kind of opportunity in their work to take a day and just reflect on whatever where I'm not having to do regular work. I'm sitting there, I'm eating a pizza and I look over and I see this line of people standing outside this building on the other side of the parking lot. I don't even know what's over there. I'm curious what they're doing. And then the line grows longer and longer and I look at the time and I realize, oh, that's a food bank. And those people are in line to get food and they're, they showed up early because they know if they get there too late, there's not going to be enough food. And it's. I think this was maybe in September. It was unseasonably cold. It was very windy. It was a miserable day to be standing outside in a line like this. And I just, I was like, I. I didn't even know this existed. What do I do? I was like, I don't have anything on me to give them. I don't have any blankets, I don't have any food, I don't have any cash. And so it's not a regular practice for Me. So how would you encourage people to develop a practice of doing this? Because the more you do it, the easier it's going to get to actually live this out.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. I would say that there are likely places in your community that their mission, their purpose is they exist to serve one of these quartet of the vulnerable. And that just going there and saying, how can I help? Like, that's what we did. I mean, we got a nursing home that is right around the corner from our house, and there are many widows there. There are many people who are vulnerable and alone and largely ignored. And so we just went and talked to Ruthanne, the activities director, and said, what can we do? How can we help? And she said, you can come at this time, come each week, and just sitting with these people and talking to them is doing plenty. And so when the boys were young, we made. I'm not saying this to, like. I'm not saying this to say, look how great the dents are.

[Marty Solomon]

You opened the episode with a story.

[Brent Billings]

Of how, well, Briggs is great. Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Breaks is great. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

No, we're scumbags. I mean, Leanne and I. Come on, you heard. Yeah, you're right. You heard the story. So now that I've said that, I can say this.

[Reid Dent]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

That, like, even when our boys were young, I mean, they were probably 4 and 6 and 8, and we took them for an hour a week to the special care unit at the nursing home, which is people who are succumbed to dementia and Alzheimer's. And it was like, we're just going to. It was. It was crazy. I mean, it was like a. It was just kind of a circus. You know, our kids are crawling around on the floor and running around, and then the residents in the special care unit are just all kinds of dissociated from anything that is real. And we're just in there and it's like, I don't even know what we're doing that's helping, but we went, you know.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And now, too, like, another thing we do is in the summertime, when our boys aren't in school, like, we. We say they volunteer. They say they are voluntold. We make them go each on their own for, you know, now that they're teenagers, they go for an hour and it's just. It doesn't have to be. Again, you're not solving the problem of lonely old people, you know, across America.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

But here in this place, yeah, you can do something for. And I. So I would say, like, don't. Don't worry about trying to solve the whole system just say, what can I do with an hour a week start there. Yeah, I'm sure there are places, you know, there are various institutions committed to justice for these people that if you walk in the door and say, is there a way I can help? They will be so glad that you are there and they will find a way for you to help. And doesn't mean you suddenly become like, a perfect person or that, like, you're now, like, having the most, like, baller quiet times you've ever had in your life with God or that you're just constantly living on top of some kind of spiritual mountain or something. I think really what it amounts to is like you are trying in your humble way to walk faithfully with God as God is wanting to be in those places, not just alongside you, but in the form of you, is what I would say.

[Marty Solomon]

I love the idea of it being just extremely local. Like, how close of a place can you find where you can help?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, totally.

[Marty Solomon]

One of these. Vulnerable.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, well, we go with that. We've got a handful of resources in the show notes. Anything else you wanted to add that we didn't get to mention?

[Brent Billings]

I don't think so. I mean, I would just say the Bible project, like, they're very excellent video. They've done a bunch of those, like, kind of word studies videos. And their one on justice is maybe my favorite one of all of them. And so just. It's brilliant and it's so much packed into five minutes. So I would totally recommend people just watch that and watch it again and watch it again. But I don't think anything else I would. I would mention. Yeah, I think that's it for me.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, well, those links will be in the show [e-mail] or in your podcast app. You can use the website to get in touch with us. Use the map to find a group if you want to. If you want to try to connect with some other people and do some of this work together, we need some more. Briggs is out there encouraging us to get out and do the things that we should do. So do this stuff in community. So use the map, find some people, work on this together. But thank you for joining us on the Behemoth podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.