490: Seven (Bonus Episode)

Summary

The BEMA Podcast Summary

Episode 490: Seven (Bonus Episode)
Release Date: January 1, 2026
Host: Brent Billings with Guest Reed Dent

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Overview of Episode

This bonus episode of The BEMA Podcast features Brent Billings and Reed Dent discussing the 1995 David Fincher film Seven. While thematically adjacent to the ongoing Vice and Virtue series, the episode stands alone, exploring the film’s approach to the seven deadly sins through a theological and philosophical lens. The hosts examine the film’s themes, character archetypes, symbolism, and its portrayal of evil and judgment—while questioning its resonance, theological accuracy, and legacy. They also reflect briefly on the late Josh Boss, a friend whose passion for thoughtful movie critique is honored through their conversation.

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Content Warnings & Context ([00:00]–[05:36])

• Seven is a graphic film, depicting the aftermath of violent acts, strong language, and mature themes. Listeners are given explicit permission to skip if uncomfortable.
  • "This film is not for everyone... complete and total permission [to skip]." — Brent ([00:51])
• The episode is a bonus, not the "capstone" to any series; it is not part of the Vice and Virtue sequence.
• The film is culturally notorious for its gruesome crime scenes and mature content, and the episode stays focused on thematic, not graphic, analysis.
  • "We're mostly going to be talking thematically." — Reed ([02:10])

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Production and Religious Context ([03:21]–[05:36])

• Screenplay by Andrew Kevin Walker: No evident religious affiliation; influence was apparently the New York crime climate of the late 80s/early 90s.
• David Fincher (director): Also no known religious associations.
• The film employs the seven deadly sins as a narrative device but lacks explicit religious commentary or evaluation.
• The hosts agree the movie, while featuring vice, does not insightfully delve into the nature of sin or redemption itself.
  • "If you're looking for an examination of the sins themselves... this movie is not really trying to say a lot, I don't think." — Reed ([05:33])

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Honoring Josh Boss ([05:44]–[07:30])

• The hosts reflect on the recent passing of friend and film critic Josh Boss.
  • "He would be able to find a lot more to discuss here than I can just on my own." — Reed ([06:52])
• Discussion of Josh adds an emotional and contemplative undercurrent, linking movie dialogue, friendship, and deeper meaning.

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David Fincher’s Filmmaking and the “Seven” Framework ([08:05]–[10:34])

• Fincher’s signature: exploring the darker sides of humanity, a "cynical way of looking at the world."
• Other notable works: Fight Club, Zodiac, Gone Girl, The Social Network, Panic Room.
• “Seven” is seen as a textbook dark thriller — not a film to "be uplifted" by, but one that provokes and challenges.
  • "You maybe go for... a starker look at the worser parts of human nature." — Reed ([09:59])

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Symbolism, Structure, and the Number Seven ([10:35]–[13:14])

• Heavy numerological symbolism: seven deadly sins, seven days, seven days to Somerset’s retirement, 14th Precinct (double seven), important plot moments at 7:00 a.m.
• Rain as constant motif; city is unnamed (generic urban decay, “Gotham City at large”).
  • "There's the almost endless rain and everything, for sure." — Brent ([11:54])
• The film set the tone for modern serial killer and true crime genres.

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True Crime as Genre and Audience Fascination ([13:09]–[15:23])

• The public’s grim fascination with inventive killings and the film’s “pioneer” status in the genre.
• The morality play element: punishment for vice is depicted in stylized, highly symbolic, and often arbitrary ways.
  • "We have a twisted fascination with... a really morbid fascination." — Reed ([14:00])

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Judgement, Preaching, and Religious Undertones ([15:23]–[17:15])

• The killer’s acts referred to as "sermons." Is he punishing or preaching?
• Lack of religious depth: while sins are central, the film offers little in terms of religious evaluation, redemption, or the lived experience of faith.
• Tracy (Gwyneth Paltrow) emerges as the film’s only source of warmth, kindness, and hope—symbolized by her pale clothes and her pregnancy.
  • "She is the only thing that really represents any kind of warmth or softness in the world of this movie." — Reed ([16:15])
  • "She's bringing life into this movie. Everything else is taking life out." — Brent ([17:18])

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Character Archetypes and Worldview ([17:23]–[29:51])

• Det. Somerset (Morgan Freeman): World-weary, detached, dispassionate; embodies resignation to the world's brokenness but also a fading trace of compassion.
  • Quote: “I don't think I can continue to live in a place that embraces and nurtures apathy as if it was a virtue..." — Somerset ([20:09])
• Det. Mills (Brad Pitt): Idealistic, eager, thinks he can make a difference ("I'm gonna turn this city around.").
  • Quote: "I won't say that... I'm not just going to go live in a log cabin and escape from everything." — Mills ([23:04])
• Both characters represent two ways of responding to evil: resignation vs. aggressive intervention.
• Their contrasts are echoed in their home lives (noise vs. quiet), intellectual curiosity (Somerset reads Dante, Mills uses CliffsNotes), and habits.
  • Insight: The city noise is a metaphor—ubiquitous for Somerset, intrusive for Mills.
  • "In Somerset's world... this is the baseline...on Mills it's the thing that comes in from outside." — Reed ([27:13])

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Thematic Tension: Is the World Redeemable? ([29:51]–[34:41])

• Somerset seems to believe the world is irredeemable, but at the climax, he passionately tries to prevent Mills from completing John Doe's plan.
  • "He's trying to prevent the last domino falling into place into total...catastrophe and oblivion." — Reed ([33:18])
• Mills' anger and sense of justice is manipulated by John Doe into committing the final sin (wrath).
• The film ends on a bleak note:
  • Hemingway quote (Morgan Freeman/Somerset): “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part.” ([34:46])

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The Limits of Judgment and Possibility of Redemption ([35:03]–[38:46])

• Somerset characterizes John Doe as "just a man" (not the Devil) — even at extremes, evil is human; there is still potential for different choices.
• Story of Somerset's past: his lost relationship and abortion regrets frame the struggle to hope for new life (as Tracy represents).
• Discussion of Tracy's dilemma: can a child be brought into such a broken world? Somerset counsels kindness and abundance if she does.

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Theological Reflection: What Is Missing? ([37:46]–[44:24])

• Absent: Religious context, clergy, or any credible path to redemption.
  • "I find it interesting that this movie doesn't have a religious character in it." — Reed ([37:23])
• The only responses to evil given: resignation/withdrawal, futile intervention, or spectacular punishment.
• Tracy is re-emphasized as possibly pointing toward a more hopeful, creative alternative.
  • "Her power to bring life into the world...her act of hospitality...is the only life giving force in the whole thing." — Reed ([38:46])

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The Sins Themselves: Stereotypes and Missed Depth ([38:46]–[41:15])

• Depictions are stereotypical; no exploration of root causes or systemic injustice.
  • On Gluttony: “This guy was just like, 'I can't get enough with one show. I need two shows shoved into my brain at the same time.'” — Brent ([40:07])
• Victims often seem randomly selected, raising the question: Is John Doe actually punishing anyone, or simply satisfying his own pathology?
• The film nods at deeper sources (St. Francis, Dante), but doesn’t leverage them for real insight.

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John Doe’s God-Complex and the Nature of Judgment ([41:15]–[48:12])

• John Doe positions himself as judge, but grants no opportunity for repentance or reflection.
  • "He is playing God." — Brent ([46:04])
• Only in the case of “pride” does he present a victim with a morbid choice.
• John Doe’s ethos: “We see a deadly sin on every street corner...and we tolerate it... Well, not anymore. I'm setting the example.” ([47:08])
• The hosts ask: How does this compare to the reality of God’s judgment, which, in the biblical view, is always joined with opportunity for repentance and restoration?

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Final Symbolism & Reflections ([48:12]–[53:39])

• Closing credits roll downward (“perhaps as if going to hell”).
• The film ultimately offers bleakness, not redemptive hope.
  • "Is my conception of God any better than what this movie offers?" — Reed ([48:32])
  • "I'm going to be thinking about Tracy...that [she] literally embodies a better way of dealing with a world that is just so messed up." — Reed ([50:28])

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Notable Quotes

• "You don't go to a David Fincher movie to, like, be uplifted." — Reed ([09:57])
• "The movie does not seem to be trying to make any kind of...explicitly religious evaluation of the sins..." — Reed ([04:20])
• "He is not surprised by anything else that happens up to this point. And he opens the box and recoils from it." — Brent ([31:46])
• "He has judged the sin of the world, the sin of the people. What is the view of God in this movie?" — Reed ([41:17])
• "John Doe does not give any opportunity for...work. Oh, no, there's no chance at redemption. He has made the final judgment." — Brent ([46:04])

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Lighthearted Farewell: The Cinematic “Seven” ([50:28]–[52:39])

• Brent lists other “Seven” films for a (potentially) more uplifting experience: Seven Samurai, Magnificent Seven, Trial of the Chicago Seven, Seven Pounds, Seven Years in Tibet, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, The Seven Year Itch, and Furious 7.
  • "My choice for uplifting seven films, Furious 7... it's all about family." — Reed ([51:28])

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Closing Thoughts

• The conversation affirms Fincher’s Seven as formally masterful and culturally influential, but ultimately theologically and ethically incomplete.
• "Fincher is making movies...he's just not our best theologian. That's okay." — Reed ([53:59])
• Tracy, as a symbol of hope and generativity, becomes the most distinctly “redemptive” character—a counterpoint to the otherwise unrelieved darkness.

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Key Timestamps

• [00:00] — Episode introduction and disclaimers
• [03:21] — Film background and the creators' lack of religious ties
• [05:44] — Remembering Josh Boss
• [09:09] — David Fincher’s directorial themes
• [13:09] — Seven as genre-defining film
• [17:15] — Character breakdown: Somerset, Mills, Tracy, John Doe
• [20:09] — Somerset’s worldview and apathy quote
• [27:13] — Symbolism of noise (evil): baseline vs. intrusion
• [31:46] — The climactic “what’s in the box” scene
• [34:46] — Hemingway’s quote and the film's bleak conclusion
• [38:46] — Tracy as life-bringer and hope
• [41:03] — Sins depicted as stereotypes
• [47:08] — John Doe’s declaration about sin and society
• [50:28] — The “Seven” pantheon and closing thoughts

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Summary Conclusion

This special BEMA Podcast episode offers a layered, honest appraisal of Seven: as influential art, as modern myth, as an inadequate parable about sin, and as a touchstone for grappling with evil, hope, and redemption. While the film presents little wisdom regarding vice, virtue, or the possibility of real transformation, the hosts’ discussion—rooted in both critical appreciation and theological interrogation—models the kind of deeper engagement that movies like Seven can provoke, if not themselves resolve.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Reed Dent to discuss the 1995 David Fincher film Seven and Reed. We gotta share some disclaimers first. Okay, first of all, this is truly a bonus episode. You may have seen that in the title. It is not officially part of the Vice and Virtue series. Obviously related in some way, hopefully obvious.

[B]

It's just a nice little appendix.

[A]

Yeah, a footnote, really, because I also. I'll get to this in a moment, but I don't know exactly when we're going to release this, but I don't want to release it at the end of the series as if it did.

[B]

The capstone or something.

[A]

Yeah, it's not.

[B]

We are not letting David Fincher have the final word.

[A]

Yeah, it is totally a bonus episode. This film is not for everyone.

[B]

Definitely not.

[A]

There's not a lot of direct violence, but there are very graphic depictions of the aftermath of lots of violence. Extremely and very graphic descriptions of the acts of violence. Lots and lots of swearing, a little bit of nudity. If you want to skip this episode, you have complete and total permission. You don't have to feel like, oh, I never finished the Vice and Virtue series. This is not part of the Vice and Virtue series.

[B]

So I was only 11 when this movie came out. But it definitely had, like, a kind of reputation after that, like, into like, my high school years, where Seven was like this movie that people would, like, talk about how, like, awesome it was, and then at the same time they'd be like, but maybe you probably shouldn't watch it, you know, because of just how kind of gruesome it is. And I think we're going to most. I don't anticipate a lot for just our people who are listening now. Like, if you're concerned about us describing in graphic detail the graphic parts of the movie, I don't think we're really going to be getting into that. I don't anticipate getting into that.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

So if you're like, oh, I don't know if I want to listen to a graphic description, I don't think that should be a problem. We're mostly going to be talking thematically. So, yeah, just throw that out there. But yeah, I definitely like this film had. It was like a little bit of an allure because of how sort of just gruesome or cruel some of the violence acts are in it. But it also is like, it has the hook of being about the seven deadly sins. Which we, you know, we have talked about them as the capital vices through the series. And I've said why I prefer that terminology. We'll probably just end up using deadly sins for this episode because that's the popularized way of talking about it. And this is definitely a piece of popular art that is about it, but it's got that hook about the seven deadly sins. And so there was something just automatically kind of intriguing about that. Like, oh, this is kind of a serial killer murder mystery movie that has also got a religious side to it. And so for those reasons, it became. Yeah, but that being said, like, it is definitely not for everyone. For those very same reasons.

[A]

Yeah. On the religious note, like, I was trying to kind of figure out, like, what was the context of this movie? Where did this come from? So I was looking at, like, the screenplay is by this guy, Andrew Kevin Walker, and I could not find any kind of religious connections or associations for him. He was born in Altoona, Pennsylvania, raised in Mechanicsburg Film school at Penn State, and then he moved to New York City in the late 80s. And this movie seemed to come out of, like, a rising crime situation in New York. But, like, there's no. I mean, clearly familiar with, you know, Dante and all the references that come up in this movie with regard to the seven deadly sins. Same thing with David Fincher. Couldn't find any religious connections for him. His mom was a mental health nurse, which I imagine factored into this somewhat, but not a strong religious tie that I could actually nail down.

[B]

Yeah. Which, I mean, that makes some sense. There's not a particularly religious gloss, you know, to the seven deadly sins that are portrayed in the movie, other than just the fact that they are, you know, they are the seven deadly sins. But the. The movie does not seem to be trying to make any kind of. Well, definitely not any explicitly, like, religious evaluation of the sins or, like, this is not a movie if you're trying to learn about the nature of the sins of gluttony or lust or greed or whatever. Like, you're not. This movie doesn't have a lot to say about that. Yeah, I was trying to figure out what this movie is trying to say really, about anything upon what. I've seen it now a couple of times. I mean, I definitely watched it a few times way back in the day. This is the first time I've seen in a long time. And I was a little bit surprised at how. I guess it's. It's just not very profound. Like, if you're looking for an Examination of the sins themselves or of sin in general.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like this movie is not really trying to say a lot, I don't think.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so one other disclaimer to throw in, and then we'll. Then we'll just fully get into talking about the movie spoilers and everything.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay.

[A]

But we are recording this in the wake of Josh Boss's death. I don't actually like. Like, we're. We're days later, and it kind of feels weird to record. But also, like, Josh and Reed and I, whenever we would record, we would talk about movies probably for the same amount of time, if not more than our actual recording session. So it kind of feels like a way to honor Josh in some way. I do. Like, he doesn't have a written review about this. He gave it four stars, so he likes it somewhat, but it's not five stars for him, and he doesn't have a written review. And I just.

[B]

He.

[A]

He saw it before he was doing letterboxd full time, and so he just doesn't. I would love to know his thoughts on this, because I wonder. Josh would often surprise me with finding depth of meaning in movies that should not have any meaning at all. But he's also not afraid to write a scathing review of something. It's just truly a bad movie.

[B]

But even his scathing reviews of things.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Of bad movies. Were still extremely thoughtful. And yes. Yeah, like, Josh definitely went layers and layers deep, which probably he would be able to find a lot more to discuss here than I can just on my own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, no, I hadn't actually hadn't thought about this being a way to honor Josh, but it makes sense what you're saying. Yeah. The last thing that he and I talked about were movies, like, just him and I, one on one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It does feel weird. It feels like something he. He should be here, like, on this conversation.

[A]

For sure. Yeah. This is not the Josh Boss Memorial episode. No. I don't know what that's going to look like. I'm not saying that that's what this is. I have no idea what we're going to do in that regard.

[B]

No. For sure. But it does feel. It does feel a little bit fitting that, like, the first thing that you and I are here talking about after his passing is a movie.

[A]

Yeah. All right, so in that. With that context set, let's. Let's just talk about this movie freely with spoilers and all.

[B]

I mean, we're 30 years on from the release date, so you're not supposed to get a spoiler alert at this point, but this is your spoiler alert.

[A]

Well, I saw it for the first time only two and a half years ago.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I was late to the party.

[B]

So, like, David Fincher hasn't made a ton of movies, but his movies are quite well known. He did Fight Club is probably his most famous movie.

[A]

I saw that when it came out.

[B]

In 99.

[A]

Yeah, in 99. That was a big one for me and my. My friend group.

[B]

Wait, how old were you in 99?

[A]

I was eighth grade. Wow. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, we should not have been watching that movie.

[B]

Yeah, I was a sophomore in high school, so I was not that much older, but, yeah, we don't. This isn't about Fight Club, but yes. Okay, so Fight Club. He also famously did Zodiac.

[A]

Haven't seen that one.

[B]

The Social Network.

[A]

I've seen that.

[B]

He did Curious Case of Benjamin Button.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Oh, Panic Room. He did Panic Room, the Jody Foster movie.

[A]

Haven't seen that.

[B]

I have seen that movie, and I didn't realize for a long time that it was a David Fincher movie. But anyway, it makes sense. Gone Girl.

[A]

Haven't seen that.

[B]

He's got a thing for, like, just like, the darker side of humanity, that's for sure. There's kind of a cynical way of looking at the world, which maybe makes a movie about the seven deadly sins, like, appropriate subject material for him. This is actually only his second movie. Second feature length movie. He did Alien 3, and actually, I was reading about this. He said he wanted to never make a movie again after making Alien 3 because it's like this huge, huge studio, big production, action, sci fi movie. And if you've seen any of his other movies, you're like, I cannot believe this. He directed a movie like that? Well, he sure did. And then he made this after that. Yeah, it's. I think he's one of those guys that it's. You don't go to a David Fincher movie to, like, be uplifted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You maybe go for, like I said, a more cynical or just a starker look at the worser parts of human nature. So what do you. Let me ask you this, Brent. Like, what. What is this movie trying to do with the seven deadly sins? Is it just like sort of a catchy sort of frame to hang a movie on? A detective, like, thriller movie on? Is there something more going on? Like, what are some of the themes that you're picking up? Like, what is this movie about for you?

[A]

There's a lot of symbolism, definitely with the numbers there's the seven sins, obviously, and the crime that unfolds over seven days, although it's not a perfect one to one situation. And you know, we find out like some of these things have been. Have been going on for exactly a year before they're uncovered and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But there's seven days of crime and seven days until Summerset retires. There were a few other. Oh, the. I don't know if this is their home precinct, but they. When they walk into the precinct before John Doe turns himself in, they walk into the 14th Precinct.

[B]

There's also the time. So the final scene, which is very famous and unfortunately has been memed into oblivion. The what's in the box Scene, unfortunately it's been memed into oblivion, which is unfortunate because it really is an incredible scene and the movie has an incredible ending. It's a very. Like, if you've seen the movie or you like, you know that it's. It's a very famous ending. But the time that the. The box is delivered to the place where they're at is seven o'.

[A]

Clock. Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, the number seven, definitely. Which, you know, I don't know that I don't think Fincher intends religious significance with that symbol.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I wonder. And that's what. Part of what I was trying to like, look into their backgrounds. Like, does he. Like, they just. I couldn't find anything at all. And so I can't actually read that meaning into those symbols if it's just Right. But there's the. There's the almost endless rain and everything for sure.

[B]

Always raining. You don't know, by the way, what city they are in, is never named.

[A]

Yeah. Has to be New York, but I think it was actually shot in la.

[B]

It's intentionally not named.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I would say because it's meant to be a symbol of, you know, all. I think just. It is a symbol of human civilization.

[A]

Gotham City at large.

[B]

It's the Gotham city. Yeah. Right.

[A]

So then I wonder, like, what is the root of why this movie is so beloved? Like, do people have this really negative, dark view of humanity? And they're like, yeah, that's the picture of what I believe. Or is it the thrill of the chase? Is it the mystery? Like true crime stuff is really popular now, but I don't know that it necessarily was in the 90s.

[B]

Well, I think that this is a pioneer in the true crime genre.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I think that this actually set a stage for serial killer movies to come, for true crime to come. I do think that, you know, this is kind of like, if you think about Blade Runner as the sort of first born in the line of, like, gritty, dystopian sci fi, seven is like that. But for the true crime serial killer genre, as far as I can think, it may not be the first ever, but it definitely popularized the whole thing. I mean, I think part of the reason why it's Beloved is because of the. That we have a twisted fascination with, like, a really morbid fascination with how very inventive the ways of killing are in this movie. I mean, they're horrific. Horrific, and I keep saying the word gruesome, but they are. And yet there's something that's like, oh, isn't that interesting? Like, the way that he decided to punish the guy who he thought had the sin of gluttony or of greed or whatever. You know, we kind of like that.

[A]

Yeah. And that was my initial read on it when I saw it the first time. But watching it back for this, I thought more that it had. Some of the victims were, like, very specifically targeted as more public figures. Like, the greed victim was a big attorney who was well known or whatever, but most of them were entirely unknown people, and it seemed like just random. Who was supposed to get anything out of this? Who's actually being punished, by the way he's carrying this out? Because the gluttony victim is a total loner. Seemingly. He didn't have any kind of relationships or whatever. So it's just a strange. Like, I mean, Mills and Somerset talk about it like he's preaching in the way he's doing this or whatever you want to call it. Maybe preaching is not the right word, but I think that's what they say.

[B]

Well, somebody asked the question at some point in the movie, is he punishing or is he preaching?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they kind of come to the. They keep. They. They refer to this. His. His killings get referred to as sermons, which, you know, I think that maybe shows that Fincher has a. Maybe a relatively bleak outlook on religion. I think it's very interesting that there is. Okay, so let's think about the characters in this movie. There are two principal characters who are Morgan Freeman's character, Detective Somerset, and Brad Pitt's character, Detective Mills. And then there are two other important characters who get less time. And one of those is John Doe, who is the killer, played by Kevin Spacey. And then Brad Pitt's wife, Tracy. Tracy is her name Tracy?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Played by Gwyneth Paltrow. I mean, she is the only thing that really represents any kind of warmth or softness in the world of this movie.

[A]

She wears mostly like white or very light, bright colors.

[B]

Well, and I mean her. Her major. There's an important scene where Morgan Freeman, Somerset, gets invited to dinner. Tracy is the one who gets Mills, what's his first name?

[A]

David.

[B]

David. She gets Brad Pitt, her husband David, to basically, she like, forces him to invite Morgan Freeman over for dinner so that they can get to know this person that he's working with. And she. So she extends this act of hospitality and kindness and it is the only thing like that that happens in the movie. Or there's like a scene or two where you see David and Tracy just being affectionate with each other. And then other than that, like the entire. Everything in this world is bleak.

[A]

Well, and she is pregnant, we find out at some point.

[B]

True.

[A]

So she's bringing life into this movie. Everything else is taking life out.

[B]

Taking life out. So much. Taking life out. That's true. I hadn't thought about that. So you got these four characters, and I think maybe Tracy aside, the thing that links these other three characters thematically is this question of, like, how do we respond to the darkness, the corruption, the depravity in the world? So let me ask you, Brent, like, how would you characterize Somerset's character? So this is Morgan Freeman. He's the seasoned detective. He's actually, as you already said, he's like seven days from retiring. He's seen a lot.

[A]

He's seen it all.

[B]

The first scene of the movie is a murder scene. It's actually not one of John Doe's crime scenes. This is interestingly, it's just a crime of passion. It's not pre calculated. It's just a couple that got into a heated argument and there was a murder. And so Morgan Freeman is on the scene. That's where you see him. And then you go from there. But how would you describe Somerset's character? How would you describe his response to the depravity of the world around him?

[A]

That scene in particular struck me as he's like fighting for, like, he notices some child artwork on the fridge and he's like, where's the kid? Did the kid see what happened? And everybody else is like, that's not our job. Who cares about that? Even the people he works with are so. And he's not like, put off or bothered by any of this. He's not surprised by any of this. But he still has that concern and care inside of him, even at the end of his career. I think it Would have been super easy for him to just be totally bitter about the whole thing and maybe still care. Like, if you. If you confronted him about it, he would care about the kid, but he's not going to be concerned about it. But he was actively concerned about it.

[B]

That is interesting, and I actually think it's a bit. It's maybe a helpful sort of, like, tweak to his character or a layer. But for the most part, I think he comes across as very dispassionate and very, like, sort of detached from the stuff that's going on in the world all around him. Like, I think one of my favorite scenes is early on when we have not yet encountered any of the killings for the deadly sins. He has had his day, you know, dealing with this crime of passion. And he goes home and he's going to bed, and he lays down and he starts a metronome ticking. Tick, tick, tick, tick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's laying there with his eyes closed. And the score, if you will, the symphony, is not music. It's just all the sounds from the city outside of, like, people shouting, and there's gunshots and there's sirens, and it's just like the audio of a world that is falling apart. And he just. He kind of resigns himself to it a little bit. It's like, if I give this thing a meter and a tempo, right, then I can just fall asleep to it. I think there's a really telling line when he says, I don't think I can continue to live in a place that embraces and nurtures apathy as if it was a virtue. And that, by the way, that might be the only time in the movie that that word virtue shows up. And then he. And he. And he says, like, I'm not. He is. I'm not saying it's. It's better not saying, like, escaping is better. And he's like, I sympathize, actually. Apathy, he says, is a solution. It's easier to just lose yourself to drugs or to violence than it is to actually cope. And he says it's easier to just do the wrong thing. It's easier to steal what you want than to earn it. And he says, love costs. It takes effort and work. And it seems like he's just kind of beyond that. Like, he's done with that. He's, like, ready to just throw it in and walk away, right?

[A]

The first couple of murders, he's like. Like he's seeing a pattern to what's going on with the John Doe murders. Before anybody else is. But he also sees like, oh, this is going to be a bigger case than I want to take on with a few days left in my career. So he's not even interested in being involved in it.

[B]

Yeah. He's trying to get off the case because, I mean, he's retiring soon enough, but he's like, I don't want to do this for my last week on the job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you have him with this detached, apathetic kind of response to the depravity around him. And then you've got Mills, who shows up, and he. What's one of the telling things about him is that we discover that he asked to be transferred to this precinct, which we take to be like, the worst of the precincts. Right. This is like the most violent precinct in the most violent city in the world. And Mills is like, I want to go there. And he. How would you describe Mills's character?

[A]

I mean, the way you say it there, it makes me think of ambition. I don't know if ambition is really the right word. He thinks he can make a difference. He thinks he can change things.

[B]

Yeah. Not ambition to, like, necessarily climb the ranks, Right. But sort of a. Almost like a bravado. Right. That's like, oh, this is. This is as bad as it can get. Like, that's where I want to go, because I can do something about that.

[A]

I'm gonna turn this city around. I'm gonna. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, at some point, he accuses Somerset. And Mills says, I don't think you're quitting because you believe these things you say. I think you want to believe them because you're quitting and you want me to agree with you. You want me to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. It's all messed up. We should just all go live in a cabin. And Mill says, but I won't. I won't say that. So he's. He's accusing, you know, Somerset of just giving up and then saying these things about the state of everything and how lost it is and how beyond hope, just as a way of justifying his resignation. And Mills is the opposite. He's like, I'm not going to say that. I'm not just going to go live in a log cabin and escape from everything. But then what is he. What. What does he do? Like, he. He's. He's an interesting character. He's the guy that shows up. It stood out to me that his first day on the job, like, he shows up with two coffees. He Wants to give one to. To Somerset. And Somerset's like, I don't want that. And so he, like, he just sets it outside, and then he gets inside and gives his coffee to just another one of, like, the beat cops who's on the scene. Yeah, he's also the guy who, like, there's a. There's a stark difference in the intellectual level at which these two people, Somerset and Mills, approach the world. One of the funnier parts of the movie is, like, Somerset goes. He spends all night in the library. When he kind of gets a sense that this is a serial killing and that these are following the line of the seven deadly sins. He goes to the library and he checks out Dante and he checks out Milton, and he checks out Chaucer. And he's just there all night, you know, and even kind of chastises the security guards, which, by the way, put a pin in that, because I think that there is something interesting going on in, like, Fincher's approach to the world of, like, this. This sinful, depraved world, because it's there alongside these really, like, horrific murders of John Doe. We get snippets throughout, just little quick snippets of, like, these. These sins, the same sins, but they're manifest in much smaller, like, less audacious ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In just the normal, like, non serial killer population. So I want to come back to that.

[A]

There was one of the detectives, I guess. Yeah. We said. Yeah, well, I'll let you finish your thoughts since we're coming back to it, but I have thoughts on that, too.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. But he just, as a way of characterizing Mills a little bit further, Somerset, you know, spends all night in the library reading. And then he tells Mills, like, he leaves him a note, and he's like, you need to. You need to read these things. And then in the next scene, we see Mills getting the Cliffs Notes delivered to him because he's like, I'm not going to sit around and read this crap, you know? And so, like, while Somerset is resigned and also highly intelligent about all of this, Mills is like the chutzpah guy. You know, he's not. He's not thinking too much, but he's just going to get in there and do what he can.

[A]

Yeah. And then maybe one of those sins is like the pride of Mills, like, trying to pretend that he knows about this stuff because he hides the Cliff Notes in his drawer, kind of turns his back and makes sure Somerset doesn't see him, put him in the drawer. He brings it up later, and he doesn't quite know what he's talking about, so he kind of like, yeah, for sure. But the contrast between the. Like, there's just so many contrasts between these characters. Like, we have, while Summerset's in the library, like, just going through these books with this quiet determination. Like, you have Mills at home with the photos and the reports, and he's just, like, banging his head on the desk, trying to find some sort of detail or clue in this stuff. And then their home environments. You have Somerset, who just has the constant noise and uses the metronome to deal with it, versus Mills, who has actually a quiet apartment, except for the times when the train comes through and it's just like the loudest, most chaotic sound. So he's getting this, like, aural whiplash all the time. And even. Even things like, Mills has a beer, Somerset asks for wine.

[B]

Hold on. I want to go back to this idea about that you just pointed out the detail that you pointed out about the noise in their apartments, because I did not think about this. But if one of the fundamental questions is, like, what is the nature of the world and the nature of people? Right? And is it good or is it evil? Is it redeemable or is it beyond all hope? It's interesting to think that in Somerset's world, literally in his apartment, the noise is constant such that you can set the metronome by it. And so I wonder if that's a way of saying that, like, in his world, this is the baseline, right? This corruption is the way things are all the time, to the point that you almost can make it a part of the background. And again, like, you just. You just live with it. But then Mills in his apartment, it's like an intrusion, right? It's not something that's baseline. It's not there all the time. It's the thing that comes in from outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, literally shakes the place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's an interesting. I mean, interesting for me to think about how do I characterize the world, and do I see that corruption as something that's just part of the background and there all the time? Or do I see it as an interruption to the way that things actually are meant to be, which is, you know, you would say they are shalomic, right. There's meant to be this state of peace, and then the freight train comes through and disorients things and shakes the glasses and the windows and the Genesis.

[A]

1 versus Genesis 3. Baseline of human condition.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting. And then to think about the way then, like, if we run with that line of thinking, then just thinking about Mills and thinking about Somerset's very different attitudes toward it. And, you know, it's the good eye, bad eye thing. Right. And if you have the bad eye, then you're just. You're. You're. And I. And it's. I want to be clear. It's not like Somerset is painted as, like, a bad guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think he's very tired, and I think he wants to just move on.

[A]

Yeah. His perspective is completely understandable. I don't. I think you can. You can see yourself in either one of them.

[B]

And yet it's worth saying here too. Okay, maybe I. Maybe I'm into this more than I thought I was. At the end of the movie, what happens, like, when, you know, he. The. Okay, so again, spoiler alert. What is in the box?

[A]

Yeah, we're. We're past that.

[B]

What is in the box is Tracy's.

[A]

Head, which you don't see.

[B]

You don't see it. You do not see it. But the package comes, and Mills is standing there keeping guard over John Doe. They're out in the middle of an open field, and Somerset goes to receive the box from the delivery guy. And so he opens it.

[A]

They're under a bunch of power lines, which I wonder if John Doe set up as like a. I'm communicating that all the power flows through or around me or whatever. I don't know if that's maybe.

[B]

Could be.

[A]

It's also just an incredibly cool shot. They just have this super long telephoto lens that just crushes all of these power lines together. It's. It's.

[B]

It's a very cool shot.

[A]

Beautiful, beautiful shot.

[B]

Just on that note, formally, this movie is basically perfect. I mean, the. The. No, seriously, like, the. The photography in the movie, the lighting. Oh, my gosh. I mean, it is gorgeous. And it's so, so, so good. The style is everywhere. The performances are great. Like, form and style. All of that is 10 out of 10. Cannot say how good it is. It's more the thematic stuff that I'm, like, still wrestling through. And, like, do I find this to be very satisfying. Is this like, a satisf about these issues or not? Right. Anyway, but I. So back to Somerset. So what we're saying is that he's the guy who, for him, it seems like the baseline is this is just the way the world is, and it would be easier to just get away from it. It's not really worth redeeming. It's really probably Just escaping is what we need to do. And yet, at the end of the movie, when the box comes and it's, you know, Tracy in the box and Somerset sees this, and Mills does not see it. Importantly, he does not know, because they're, you know, they're 50 yards away from each other.

[A]

And this is the one thing in the movie that actually shocks Somerset. He is not surprised by anything else that happens up to this point.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And he opens that box and recoils from it.

[B]

Yeah. Which I think is partially. I think is a lot owed to the fact that Tracy was the one who reached out to him and made a connection and showed him kindness and warmth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he also immediately realizes what this is going to like. He puts it together very quickly, what John Doe is trying to do, because the conceit is that John Doe, he is the one who envies, Right. And so in his envy, he. He murders Mills's wife because he wants the life that Mills has, which is, like, domesticated and settled down and stable and loving. And that in doing that, he is baiting Mills into being the wrath guy, being this, like, committing the sin of wrath by killing him. Killing John Doe, this is his intention all along, which is part of what makes this so, like, cerebral and kind of in a really twisted sort of genius. But Somerset sees the box and he immediately puts all this together, and he knows what's going to happen. And so my point, and what I'm trying to get back to what's worth, he's not all just like, the world stinks and let's resign ourselves to it, is that he is the one who suddenly, very passionately, is trying to talk Mills out of doing this thing right. Out of killing John Doe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's pleading with them, like, please don't do this, like, you're going to let him win. This isn't the way that it has to be. And so in what is easily the scene where not only does this Somerset recoil, but he also is showing more life and more urgency by far, than he has had in the entire movie. Here it is because he's trying to, like. He's trying to prevent the last domino falling into place into total, like, catastrophe and oblivion in letting the darkness win. And so I just. It's important to. To point that out for Somerset's character and that Mills. It's like his, you know, his passion, his chutzpah is what gets leveraged. Like, John Doe is leveraging that against him to play on that and get him to, like, perpetuate the very sin in the world that Mills wants to try to do something about. And then, of course, you know, spoiler. Spoilers. Mills pulls the trigger and kills John Doe. And we are left with a very bleak outlook from the director, from the story. I mean, there's a famous final line of the movie. You hear Morgan Freeman, he quotes a line from. Who's it from?

[A]

I don't remember.

[B]

It's some famous author. I remember the quote. The world is a fine place and worth fighting for. Oh, Hemingway.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So he quotes Hemingway, the very last line of the movie. The world is a fine place and worth fighting for. And then he says. And I agree with the second part. Yeah, but this is an interesting question, right? Why is the world worth fighting for if it's not a fine place? Yeah, I'm asking. I don't know.

[A]

Well, so I think of the line. I think this was maybe when they were getting into his apartment or something like that. I can't remember exactly where this fell, but Somerset makes this comment that John Doe is not the devil, he's just a man. Which I take to mean something like, even though this is horrific and brutal and calculated and. And really evil, at the end of the day, this is not the full weight and depiction of evil. This is just a man. There's still a way to turn this around. There's like this small element of. I don't know if I'd quite call it hope, but just achievability.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a point in there where it seems like Somerset actually kind of wishes he was more optimistic. The way Mills is, he can't quite bring himself to do it most of the time, but he kind of longs for that optimism.

[B]

I mean, we hear about Somerset's past. He was once. Was he married or was he engaged?

[A]

I think it was engaged.

[B]

Yeah, he was engaged to a woman. And he pressured. It was a girlfriend that. He pressured her into having an abortion.

[A]

Oh, that's right. They were not actually engaged.

[B]

And he. Yeah, so he. At one time, he did have some kind of relationship, but he was responsible for ending that relationship.

[A]

Well, and Tracy makes that comment when they meet at the diner. She tells him about how she's pregnant, and she's like, how can I bring a child into a world like this?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And he, you know, turns around, explains his story and is like, yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't bring myself to do it.

[B]

Yeah. And he tells her, like, if you decide to do this, if you decide to, like, abort the baby, you need to never tell him. But if you do have the baby, then you need to like basically just spoil it every chance you get. Be the parents who lavish like excessive, just abundance and goodness on your kid. I find it interesting that this movie doesn't have a religious character in it. Like, I wonder what it would be like if you, you know, if you wrote a priest somewhere into the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interestingly, one of the alternative endings that was storyboarded had the final scene playing out in a church where they. They catch John Doe. And I don't remember all the details of it, but it. It's in a church and the church is burning down or the church burns down at the end of the movie, which is like, you know, pretty on the nose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there's no like, I. So you got. If the question is, what is the response to a depraved world? And you've got Somerset, who is like, just escape it. And you've got Mills who like unthinkingly is just going to go head first, not really even knowing what he's going to do. Right. But he's just, he's just in there. And then you've got John Doe whose answer is just serial murder. Like, I'm going to punish this and make a spectacle of it. I was like, is there another, Is there another way? And I guess that way is actually represented in Tracy. I'm glad you brought that up about her, like her power to bring life into the world. That her approach of, you know, inviting somebody over for dinner and her ability to like have a baby is like the only really life giving force in the whole thing.

[A]

Maybe we should talk about the seven sins themselves. It's all very stereotypical portrayal of these. I think the Vice and Virtue series kind of speaks against the actual trappings of these sins. Again, the question of like, who's actually being punished here. Like I was thinking about the prostitute, specifically the lust victim. Obviously the prostitute is a victim of that, but I almost feel like the forced perpetrator that John Doe made actually murder her is maybe as much if not more of a victim because of the trauma of what he had to do.

[B]

I don't know how much we want to get into the depictions of what happens.

[A]

Yeah, not necessarily too much, but presumably if you're this far into our episode, you've seen the movie. But we don't necessarily need to make you like rewatch and relive it all if you don't want to. But I don't know, like the gluttony Victim, like, is force fed for 12 hours until he. Whatever. But I was trying to, like, look around the scene and catch other elements of it. And one of the things that I noticed about that guy's house is that he had two TVs stacked on top of each other, which felt like more of a depiction closer to what we talk about in the Gluttony episode, where it's not just food, it's any sort of consumption. And this guy. I think there are lots of reasons why you might have two TVs stacked on top of each other to do various things, but I get the impression that this guy was just like, oh, I can't get enough with one show. I need two shows. I have two eyes. I need two shows shoved into my brain at the same time. So there was a little element of that, but for the most part, it was all just the stereotypical stuff. There's no, like, deeper underlying issue.

[B]

Yeah, no, I mean, I really don't think that this is. This. If you're wanting to understand something about the nature of any of the. The particular seven deadly sins, this is not a movie that's trying to do that. You're not going to. You're not going to come away with some kind of epiphany about, like, oh, that's what gluttony is like.

[A]

You know, although they do reference, like, St. Francis and stuff, like, it seems like some of the source material was potentially there for them to.

[B]

Potentially, Yeah. I mean, he spends all night reading Dante in the library, but, yeah, right.

[A]

It's. It's more of a framework and less about, you know, the underlying issues of the synths, for sure.

[B]

What is more, I think, in view. And this is again, back to the question of the. The various characters responses to, like, the world around them is like, I think that John Doe sees himself. Well, he definitely sees him. Like, he puts himself in the position of judge, and he has judged the sin of the world, the sin of the people. And what is the view of God in this movie? Not that I think Fincher is necessarily setting out to do some kind of treatise on God explicitly at all. I don't know what he intends. But for us people who believe in God and who just did a whole series on vice and virtue and ask the question, what would be the way that God regards the sin of the world, the sin of gluttony or lust or greed, even just the situations of these various victims. Right. You've got some that feel like, yeah, they had succumbed to a vice, but, like, Is it just because they were terrible people? Or like you said with the. You know, with the prostitute, is she caught somehow up in a system that she has no power over? Like, you know, John Doe doesn't seem super interested in asking all of those questions. They just. The people, the victims become, like, sort of. Just a. Sort of general. A gross symbol for, you know, whatever that sin is. But, yeah, like, the way that he sees the world, the way that he sees them as, is it just disgusting and repulsive and deserving of, like, their fate? And at one point in, when he's in the back of the police car, Mills says something to him about innocent people, and he's like, innocent? Is that a joke? And he goes on talking about how they're not innocent and how, like, he was giving them no less than what they deserved. One of the lines that really stuck with me is the scene after, okay, so when they find the guy who's been chained to the bed for a year, his victim for the sin of sloth, and it's just so cruel the way he's, like, purposefully kept this guy alive just to make him suffer for an entire year. And they find this guy, and it turns out he's still technically alive. Like, there's that crazy moment where he, like, gasps for breath, and it's like, super jump scare, you know? And they get him to the hospital, and the detectives are asking the doctor, like, is there any chance that he makes it through this? And the doctor is like, there's just. There's no way. Like, he. If you, like, shined a light in his eyes, like, he would. You know, he would die right on the spot or whatever it is he says. But he has this line where he's, like, being a little bit empathetic towards the victim. He says he's experienced as much pain and suffering as anyone I've encountered. But then he says, and he still has hell to look forward to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. That line sticks with me because it's like. It feels like Fincher is kind of saying, well, whatever suffering that John Doe can cook up for these people, this is still, like, no less than what they will get, like, when they go to hell for their sin and that. I don't know. That felt. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I actually read that the other way around.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Whereas, like, this is so horrific and cruel and hell is actually going to be better. Like, the punishment of hell is actually going to be a relief?

[B]

No, I think when he says he still has hell to look forward to. He's saying that like tongue in cheek, like it's going to get worse for him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because hell is worse than this. That is like one of those lines that I just kind of is sort of like a. A gut check, you know, and it's like. It just always makes me stop and ask again, like, what is the way in which God regards people who are, you know, people who are depraved, people who are sinful, people who are caught in the, you know, circumstances of, like, sin. Sin, both in perpetuating it and being victims of it, you know, I don't know. I just. I will leave that for people to wrestle with on their own.

[A]

Well, like, one of the things we had in the Vice and Virtue series was the self examination questions, the self reflection. And John Doe does not give any opportunity for that sort of work. Oh, no, there's no chance at redemption. He has made the final judgment. He is. He is playing God.

[B]

Well, interestingly, except for in the case of the woman who is the victim of the pride killing, because he, like, mutilates her face and then he gives her the choice, like, you can either call for help. True, but everybody will see you being horribly disfigured, or you can like, basically take these sleeping pills. And it's like, really? Again, it's so gruesome. It's so sadistic and horrible. And it could be that he was. Maybe he's gonna kill her anyway, you know, but still, John Doe does not. He's not interested in seeing if people want to do any kind of repentance. He's not interested in really anything other than. I mean, really. It's an ego thing for him, right? At the end of the day, like, as he says, what I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed forever, is what he says in the back of the police car. And, you know, whether or not that's true, whether or not anybody actually in the world of the movie would care or study or follow or puzzle over it forever. That's his motivation, right, Is his ego.

[A]

Well, and Here we are 30 years later talking about this movie still.

[B]

But he's. It's like, he probably sees himself a little bit as like a righteous warrior, you know, I'm not gonna tolerate sin anymore. I mean, he's got this line, he says, we see a deadly sin on every street corner, in every home, and we tolerate it. We tolerate it because it's common. It's trivial. We tolerate it morning, noon and night. And he says, well, not anymore. I'm setting the example. It's just that his example, just like. I agree, like, we do see deadly sins on every street corner and we tolerate it. And we tolerate so much that is common. Or we. We treat it as common and we treat it as trivial. And yet what his. What he wants to do about it is something really horrible. And he wants to punish people and make an example, you know, a really horrific one. But, like, is there a better response? Like, what ought our response be to a world in which we see a deadly sin on every street corner?

[A]

And then one final element of symbolism. As the credits roll, they go in reverse, going down on the screen as if going to hell, perhaps. I don't know.

[B]

Oh, really? I didn't even notice that.

[A]

I don't know. If you feel like we've answered the question of what this movie actually has to say, if anything at all, if it believes anything at all.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I do think that it is like a not very complex painting of some responses to a world that is steeped in deadly sin, but none of them are redemptive. And it is. Yeah, it's pretty bleak. And I guess the challenge for me is, like, is my conception of God in any way bigger and better than what this movie offers? Or do I have a conception of God, you know, in the way that he wants to deal with these atrocities, like is. Or in whether in what I say I believe about God or in what my life shows I believe about God? Do I have any better picture than what this movie is offering? You know, it doesn't. It. It doesn't have to be the job of this movie or of David Fincher to, like, show us the way to redeem the world. It can be enough sometimes for movies just to show us, like, a. A world that is broken. This movie just. Again, this is, like, so stylized, so fantastical in its conceit of this serial murder and stuff that it's not very realistic. Quote, unquote. It's definitely gritty. It's definitely stark, but not, again, necessarily what I would call realistic. Not that it's trying to be, but. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think I just gotta. I gotta. I'm gonna. I think what I'm gonna be thinking about is Tracy because this really did not occur to me at all until you said it earlier in our conversation. But in what way does. Like, who Tracy is and what Tracy literally embodies, in what way is that a Picture of maybe a better way of dealing with a world that is just so messed up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

Well, perhaps people need a different seven to look at the world through. And so I have the seven Pantheon of Cinema. So I have these listed in order of their ratings. Here's the seven Pantheon. We have Seven Samurai, which is the highest rated of these.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Followed by our movie today, Seven. And then a little farther down, we have the Magnificent Seven. We have the Trial of the Chicago Seven. We have Seven Pounds. We have Seven Years in Tibet. Also Brad Pitt, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. The Seven Year Itch. All right, and then my choice for uplifting seven films, Furious 7, which I realize is not the same kind of seven, but I just had to include it.

[B]

The Fast and Furious seventh movie. You know, it's all about family. It's all about family.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

Have you seen Seven Samurai?

[A]

I have not. I've seen the. I didn't realize that it was, like, the original. And then the Magnificent Seven is like a spaghetti western adaptation of that story. So I've seen the Magnificent Seven and then found out that it was a reference to Seven Samurai. Haven't seen that yet.

[B]

Have you seen the old Magnificent Seven or the new one?

[A]

I'm referring to the old one. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where the new one ranks. I think it's not a sign.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's totally a different point of conversation, but Seven Samurai is like one of those where, like, you watch it now and you kind of take it for granted. You're like, yeah, this is okay, but actually you're like, oh, Akira Kurosawa was, like, inventing ways of doing action movies that nobody had done before and that we all still now use, you know, 70 years later.

[A]

Right. Yeah. The only reason I have not seen it yet because it is very high on my watch list, and I think about it a lot, but it is over three hours long, and it is difficult for me to find a chunk of time to carve out to see it.

[B]

Yeah, it's definitely long.

[A]

All right, well, Reid, thanks for talking through this movie with me.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we're definitely not a movie podcast, that's for sure. No, but we do like movies, and I do. For me, it's like, all in the ether of my brain when I'm doing Bible teaching stuff. It's like, not just the commentaries and the theology books that are, like, floating around in there. Of course. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are like this, too, but it's whenever. It was eight months ago when I first started making notes for the Vice and Virtue series, I'm pretty sure that Seven by David Fincher was probably the very first thing that I put on the document of, like, where my brain was at, so. And I'm glad that it didn't stop there, because I think if I tried to build a Vice and Virtue series using only David Fincher's seven as my source material, it would have been not a very good series, but a fun thing to talk about for sure, if anybody made it this far.

[A]

Thanks for hanging with us going into your series. I would have thought that this movie fit perfectly with it and would be, like, a foundational resource for sure. And now.

[B]

Yeah. Turns out it's like the exact opposite of what we need, of what I needed to be able to, you know, make the series happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's. Yeah. I'm still. I'm glad the movies here. Glad David Fincher is making movies. I like to watch his movies. He's just not our best theologian. That's okay. That's okay.

[A]

That is okay. Well, listeners can. I don't know if we'll have any links for this episode, but you can find details about this podcast and other [e-mail] and I'm sure we'll be back to talk about another movie at some point. Who knows? Not. Not too often, but every once in a while, we do want to mix it in. It's like a peek behind the curtain.

[B]

Sometime we do need to find a reason to do the movie Silence, because that is a movie that is theologically rich.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I don't just want to shoehorn it in, you know, there's got to be a good reason for it. But there will be someday.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, until that time, thank you all for joining us on the Bama podcast. We will talk to you again soon.