Vault: Brutally Honest Men Answer What Women REALLY Want to Know

Summary

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The Bert Show

Episode: Vault: Brutally Honest Men Answer What Women REALLY Want to Know
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, The Bert Show assembles a panel of men—Joel, Gary, Griff, and Chris—representing a range of relationship statuses and life experiences. The hosts and audience pose the kind of questions women are typically curious (and sometimes anxious) to ask but rarely get unfiltered answers to. Promising "brutal honesty," these men tackle common dating dilemmas, views on appearance, relationships with women who have children, thoughts on sex and respect, and the do's and don'ts of modern dating etiquette. The tone is direct, humorous, and conversational, making for an episode packed with memorable moments and revealing insights.

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Meet the Guys Panel (01:01–03:57)

• Joel (30, Engaged): Proposed to his fiancée in Italy overlooking the Coliseum for a dramatic and memorable engagement.
• Gary (29, Dating): Clarifies he's not single—thanks to his girlfriend's directive.
• Griff (37, Married): Shares a wild proposal story and pride in being a dad to five, including a youngest daughter who’s the first girl in his extended family.
• Chris (early 30s, Dating): Unsure of his exact age ("been lying about my age for so long"), jokingly references being born in '71.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Looks: Jeans & T-Shirt or Done Up? (04:04–06:28)

Core Question: Do men prefer women done up or casual when meeting someone?

• Griff: "I'm a jeans and T-shirt dude." (04:25)
• Chris: Agrees, preferring a beachy, relaxed look.
• Gary: "Jeans and T-shirt are good, but I always like a nice sundress. Something cute." (04:32)
• Joel: "I'm a done up guy." (04:37)
• Further Clarification: Most men on the panel prefer confident, casually dressed women, finding that look approachable and less intimidating.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Griff: "A woman that rocks the jeans and a T-shirt is so confident about her look that she trumps all the girls with the made up. To me, that's why I like the most confident female in the room." (05:56)
• Chris: Adds that men who like the casual look typically aren't at clubs—clubs skew more toward the "done up" crowd.

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2. Women with Kids: Immediate Impressions & Timing of Disclosure (06:40–09:04)

Question: What do men really think about dating women with children?

• Joel: "Baggage." (07:22)
• Gary: More nuanced; considers it partial baggage, but it depends on the situation and the woman's kids.
• Griff: Takes the opposite view: "I actually always liked women with kids...they had completed that circle of, you know, a complete female. I think a female without kids only have to love themselves." (07:50)
• Chris: Admits it would be a challenge for him; he still hopes for his own family someday.

When should a woman tell a man she has kids?

• Griff: "You should know on the first date. Kids aren't shoes. You can't just say, yeah we've been dating a month, man, I got a 17 year old. Forgot to tell you." (08:41)
• Gary, Joel, Chris: All agree—be up front.

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3. Sex & First Impressions: Does Timing Matter? (09:16–11:19)

Question: Does it affect a man's view if a woman sleeps with him on the first date?

• Griff: Bluntly honest: "If a guy says it doesn't matter when you sleep with him, he's probably already sleeping with somebody." (09:30)
• Chris: "Certainly some questions in your mind if you all slept together on the first date...if a guy's pressuring you to sleep with him, then that probably raises bigger questions." (10:04)
• Host: "If you did [sleep with me on the first night], then the respect level for me came down...You're probably doing that with other dudes also." (10:53)
• Panel Consensus: Sleeping together on the first date tends to lower respect and sets the tone for a casual relationship versus something serious.
• Memorable Moment:
  • Chris: Do guys believe it's really her "first time"?
    "No." (11:18)

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4. Never Married/No Kids in Your 30s or Older: Red Flag? (11:28–12:48)

Caller Question: Is it a red flag for men if a woman is 30+ with no marriage or kids?

• Joel: "Absolutely." (11:43)
• Griff: "Something is wrong with her. You 39 years old, never been married, never been proposed to. All kind of red flags go up." (12:17)
• Gary: "If she's 39 years old, she's never been married, no kids, there's probably something wrong with you." (12:30)
• Joel: "You know, there's something that you're doing to have jeopardized all those relationships...Something's throwing up some red flags for some guy never to have proposed to you at 39 years old." (12:33)
• Host: "Now you women are yelling at your radios right now. You're pissed. But you wanted to hear what guys think." (12:48)

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5. How Fast Should a Woman Respond? Playing the Game (12:56–16:45)

Question: Should a woman be quick to reply, or does delay build interest?

• Chris: It's case-by-case; too long seems like playing games, too quick could seem needy if it's constant. (13:33)
• Host: Wants to know best advice for women.
• Griff: Don't stress over being "too available." "I don't like people that say you said you was going to call and you didn't. Like that's a problem...that means you have little patience." (14:23)
• Joel: "You have to play the game. If you don't play the game, then you're, you know, the other person is." (15:21)
  Recommends the book “The Game” as a dating Bible for how to understand what's really happening behind the scenes.
• Gary: Likes availability—“When I send her a text or a phone call, I like when she answers back...if I know she's sitting around her house doing nothing, I want her to give me a text back.” (16:19)
• Chris: Ultimately, just be respectful and natural, no wild games.

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6. Strong Women: Attractive or Intimidating? (16:48–19:04)

Caller Question: Is a woman with a strong personality a turn-off?

• Joel: Depends on the guy’s personality. For someone who likes the spotlight, it helps to have a partner who shares that energy. If they're both passive/aggressive, it can clash.
• Gary: Likes confidence, but not arrogance or a woman who constantly needs to prove she’s better. (17:51)
• Host: Has Gary ever met a woman too confident for him?
  Gary: “No. Never.” (18:05)
• Griff: "I've never called a female mean...A real man want a queen. You don't want somebody that's...my wife is a sergeant first class in the military, a recruiter. She is very aggressive. But I love it though because I make her be a woman." (18:07)
• Host: Passive women tend to bore men.
  • Griff: "Women, that's whatever you want to do. I want to cheat on you. How about that?" (18:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Proposals:
  • Joel: "If I made it elaborate enough, there was no chance she could say no. So it's a long flight home." (02:03)
• On Confidence:
  • Griff: "A woman that rocks the jeans and a T-shirt is so confident about her look that she, you know, trumps all the girls with the made up." (05:56)
• On Women with Kids:
  • Griff: "I actually always liked women with kids...they had completed that circle...I think a female without kids only have to love themselves." (07:50)
• On Red Flags:
  • Griff: "You 39 years old, never been married, never been proposed to—yeah, I would. All kind of red flags go up." (12:17)
• On Playing the Game:
  • Joel: "If you haven't read [the book] ‘The Game,’ pick it up. Every game that's ever been played on you is in that book." (15:21)
• On Strong Women:
  • Griff: "A real man want a queen...My wife is a sergeant first class...very aggressive female. But I love it though." (18:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introductions & Proposal Stories: 01:01–03:57
• Jeans & T-Shirt vs. Done Up: 04:04–06:28
• Women with Kids: 06:40–09:04
• Sex and First Dates: 09:16–11:19
• Never Married/No Kids Red Flag: 11:28–12:48
• Response Time and 'The Game': 12:56–16:45
• Strong Women—Turn On or Off?: 16:48–19:04

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Summary

This episode delivers honest (sometimes blunt) male perspectives on dating and relationships—directly answering the burning questions women have. The discussion is packed with practical insights and a fair dose of good-natured ribbing. Whether it’s appearance, family status, sex and respect, texting etiquette, or female confidence, each panelist brings individual nuance but don’t shy away from what they see as inconvenient truths. If you want to know what guys really think, this jam-packed panel episode doesn’t hold back.

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Transcript

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[Griff]

The Bird show.

[Host]

We call this the guys panel on the Birch show. Look, now is the time we're gonna go one by one around the room with these guys and they have promised us complete honesty, which. Which normally means about 75% honesty if you ask me. Because they got women, they need to answer also. But Griffin, I could count on you for some honesty.

[Griff]

Of course.

[Host]

Any question you've ever wanted, ask a guy and get brutal honesty about. Let's go right around the room before we start taking the calls. This is Joel. And Joel, you're how old?

[Joel]

30.

[Host]

30 years old. And is now engaged.

[Joel]

Correct.

[Host]

Congratulations.

[Joel]

Thank you very much.

[Host]

It's actually a really cool engagement. I'm gonna tell him real quick how you propose. And I'm like, come on, come on. Soften them up before they hit you.

[Joel]

I basically surprised my fiance with a trip to Italy and proposed to her in front of the coliseum on a overhang overlooking Rome.

[Host]

That's strong.

[Joel]

Yeah. Pretty cool.

[Host]

Those are pretty big shoes for the.

[Joel]

You know, I figured if I made it elaborate enough, there was no chance she could say no. So it's a long flight home.

[Host]

So she was feeling the pressure.

[Joel]

Oh, yeah, she did.

[Host]

Pretty big shoes for her second husband to fill when he proposed. I think you did it right, dude.

[Joel]

Thanks for.

[Host]

Gary is here also. Gary, you're how old?

[Gary]

29.

[Host]

29 years old. Single.

[Griff]

Yeah.

[Gary]

No, no.

[Caller]

Dating.

[Host]

Dating. And your girlfriend told you to make that perfectly clear when you're on the radio?

[Joel]

Absolutely.

[Host]

Okay. I know she Did. And this is Griff here.

[Griff]

What's happening, man?

[Host]

Tell him how old you are.

[Griff]

I am 37 and I'm married. And it's funny because you got like the cool proposal story, but when I proposed to my wife in Miami, she thought I was going to tell her I had aids, Right. I promise you. Like, I took her to the beach and you know, it was early in the day and I was crying. I was starting to, my eyes got watery and she cut me off and she said, before you say anything, look, if you got A's, then I'm in it.

[Host]

Can I know?

[Griff]

She didn't, I swear. It's just stupid. I said, why would you say that? So I love my wife. That's my home girl.

[Host]

And you've got how many kids?

[Griff]

I'm a father. 5. Cause she had kids and. But most recently I got a 676 day old daughter that's 22 months, two weeks, five days, everybody. My mom has six grandsons, so she the first girl cousin, the first niece that. Yeah, she real important to my family tree.

[Host]

All right, so if you've got questions about family or how to deal with husbands or kids, Griff is your guy. And then we've got parent step parenting also. And Chris is here also. Chris, how you doing?

[Chris]

I'm doing well. I've been lying about my age for so long, I'm not even sure how old I am. So somewhere in the 30s.

[Host]

What's the birth certificate say?

[Chris]

I think I was born in 71,

[Griff]

but I'm not positive.

[Host]

71 and you are single?

[Chris]

I'm dating.

[Host]

Dating, yes. Okay, so Wendy, you want to start this whole thing off?

[Wendy]

Do you prefer a girl in jeans and a T shirt or done up in full makeup?

[Joel]

Depends on the occasion. What's the occasion?

[Wendy]

If you're just out and about trying to meet people. If you're single, trying to meet people.

[Host]

What's the question again? I was looking at the call. What was the question?

[Wendy]

Do they prefer a girl in jeans and a T shirt when they're out or a girl who's all done up?

[Griff]

I'm a jeans and T shirt dude.

[Wendy]

Okay.

[Chris]

Yeah, I would agree. I'm from the beach and flip flops. Jeans and a T shirt is always nice.

[Gary]

Okay, jeans and a T shirt are good, but I always like a nice sundress. Something cute.

[Joel]

I'm a done up guy.

[Wendy]

Done up guy. Because guys always choose the girl at the club or who's out, who's all done up. So I'm just wondering why Your jeans and a T shirt kind of guy. If you always pick the girl who's made up.

[Chris]

Well, the guy that likes jeans and a T shirt isn't at a club.

[Host]

Did you hear that?

[Griff]

Good.

[Host]

You didn't even hear the answer. You were over there, you're all yelling.

[Griff]

You didn't even hear his answer.

[Chris]

I was just saying that the guy that likes the jeans and a T shirt is typically not at the club.

[Wendy]

Well, just at a bar in general, you go for the girl with like, pounds of makeup and the hair done.

[Host]

Here's the problem with Wendy. It's in.

[Griff]

I didn't hear it already. Yeah, you are. You're still stereotyping us. And we're. We just told you. The three people just told you on this panel for it. And we like jeans and T shirts. And you said, why did you pick the girl? We don't. He likes that. Ask him.

[Wendy]

That's what happens.

[Joel]

But here's, here's also the deal. When you're at the club, how many dudes, how many girls in jeans and a T shirt do you actually see?

[Wendy]

Well, not. I mean, even like at a bar, the girl who's done up, that's who the guy gets.

[Host]

Stop, stop. This is when this is an individual Wendy problem here. Because the thing is, she doesn't know which outfits are appropriate to venue she's in. So if she's just hanging out at like Park Tavern, she's dressed up in the sexy ass miniskirt with the boobs all hanging out and the stiletto heels and all. She doesn't know, like, what to wear to each venue.

[Griff]

I think a woman that rocks the jeans and a T shirt is so confident about her look that she, you know, trumps all the girls with the made up. To me, that's why I like the most confident female in the room. Not so much the. I don't like that much makeup anyway.

[Host]

Chris, you agree with that or she's broke.

[Chris]

Just rolls of jeans and T shirts.

[Host]

That doesn't bother a guy?

[Griff]

Nah, we're easy.

[Host]

How about you?

[Gary]

I like the jeans and a T shirt.

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, there's something about that also that is, like, simple. It's less intimidating to approach. Also. It's like a girl drinking a beer. To me, that's like, it's more approachable. Suzanne, you've got a question for the guys panel?

[Caller]

Yeah. I wanted to get the perception on women and young children. When I go out and meet people, you get like a mixed bag of, oh, it's great. And then you look in their eyes like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. You know, I'm not looking for you to be their father. I just want to find somebody cool and hang out. I mean, what's the panel idea of women with kids?

[Host]

So you're single and you're out in a bar or whatever, and you're starting to get your chemistry on pretty good with a girl and she tells you that she's got kids. Joel, what's your immediate impression? Honest.

[Griff]

Well, look at his face.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Joel]

Honest.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Joel]

Baggage.

[Host]

Baggage. So that's not for you?

[Joel]

Nope.

[Host]

Okay. Gary.

[Gary]

I think it's considered baggage, but kind of depends on the situation. Depends on the girl, you know.

[Host]

What do you mean?

[Gary]

How old the kids are, if they're gonna be, you know, somebody. Some people you have to take care of or, you know, if you and your girl getting, you know, getting on and everything's working. I don't think the kids should really matter at that point.

[Host]

Griff, you probably have a totally different answer here.

[Griff]

Yeah, I actually always liked women with kids because to me, it just said that they was real women. Like, they had completed that circle of, you know, a complete female. Like, I think a female without kids only have to love themselves. So, you know, when you have children, you have somebody else that you have to love more than you. And I always thought that was attractive.

[Chris]

I think that's a good question. I think you need a man to be a little bit more emotionally mature, that he's going to be able to, you know, to. To be comfortable with that. So myself, I probably wouldn't be, but. No, it's.

[Joel]

It's.

[Chris]

You know, I eventually still want to have my own family someday, so I'd prefer to find someone that doesn't yet have children. But, you know, as time goes on, I think that attitude may change a

[Host]

bit as a guy. This one always comes up as a guy. When do you want to find out she has kids? Do you want to find out on the first date? Do you want to find out on the third date? Do you want to find out on the fifth date?

[Griff]

But you should know on the first date. Like, that ain't. The kids aren't shoes. You can't just say, yeah, we've been dating a month, man, I got a 17 year old. Forgot to tell you.

[Chris]

What's your name?

[Host]

We've had Brenda. We've had women on this show before that try to hide their kids the first couple of dates.

[Griff]

It's not attractive.

[Gary]

You need to know up front. Absolutely.

[Host]

Joel, you Agree.

[Joel]

Absolutely. There's nothing worse fun now that, you know, two or three, day 10. That just completely shoots all the holes and all the honesty for that relationship.

[Caller]

Been on this show before.

[Host]

Denise has a question. Go ahead, Denise.

[Caller]

Hi. If a guy, like, says that he really. It doesn't matter when you sleep with him, is he being honest about that or really does it really does matter if you make him wait or if you do it?

[Griff]

In the beginning, I always said that it doesn't matter matter when you sleep with him because he already sleeping with somebody, so he's not. Listen, I'm being honest. I know when I used to say that, I was never pressed, like, I was never pressed because I already had other females. So whenever you wanted to. That's all good.

[Host]

I think the question here really, like, the broader question is, what do you think about a woman that sleeps with you on a first date? Do you look down on it? It doesn't matter to you at all? Are you more attracted to it, Chris?

[Chris]

Well, you know, I mean, certainly some questions in your mind if, If. If you all slept together on this on the first date. So my. My answer to that would be, if a guy's pressuring you to sleep with them, then. Then, you know, that probably raises bigger questions.

[Host]

I don't think the real question here is if a guy is pressuring. She wants to have sex with you on the first date. When you guys wake up in the morning, will you see her potentially as somebody you want to continue dating? Or now are you looking at her as a steady booty call?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Griff]

Would you stay there all morning, though? Like, I mean, you had sex on the first date. It's kind of agreed on that. It's cool. I will holler at you when I see you again. Don't act all like that.

[Host]

You want an honesty. I'm not doing. I totally agree with you. Like, my theory on this has always

[Griff]

been this, not spending the night.

[Host]

I didn't want a girl to sleep with me on the first night. If you did, then the respect level for me came down, like, okay, that's cool. I'm gonna have sex with you. But we're probably. You're probably doing that with other dudes also. And if I'm serious about being with somebody, I'm not. I'm not.

[Caller]

It was my first time, too.

[Griff]

Yeah, right. That's another one.

[Host]

When a girl tells you that this is the first time I've ever done this, just across the room, do you guys ever really believe that?

[Chris]

No.

[Griff]

Then you're the Best. You just happen to be the gold winner in that category for the first time. Okay.

[Host]

Good morning, Nicole. You're on Q100. Hi.

[Caller]

Good morning, you guys. I've had, like, a few guys tell me that because I don't have. I've never had any kids and never been married because I'm in my 30s. Something was wrong with me. So is that, like, something that normal for a guy?

[Joel]

Absolutely.

[Chris]

Yeah. People try to tell me I'm not normal all the time.

[Host]

I can see that.

[Chris]

Yeah. I think that. I think it's. To me, I think it's a lot about someone who's willing to wait and wait for the right person, the right relationship for the right reasons, and not just get into it for the wrong reasons. And then we all have those friends that. That rush into something and end up, you know, messing up their lives.

[Host]

Do you guys agree that if a girl comes to you and tells you that she's 30 years old and she's never been married and never have kids, that's one thing, but if she comes to you and she's 39 years old and she's never been married and never have kids, you guys make a different impression.

[Griff]

Something is wrong with her. You 39 years old, never been married, never been proposed to. Like, yeah, I would. All kind of red flags go up.

[Caller]

Wow. Well, good thing I'm normal.

[Host]

39 years old, she's never been married, no kids.

[Gary]

There's probably something wrong with you.

[Host]

Really?

[Gary]

You're doing something wrong.

[Joel]

You know, there's something that you're doing to have jeopardized all those relationships in the past. Something's gone wrong down the road, and you said something or your attitude's been, one way. Something's throwing up some red flags for some guy never to have proposed to you at 39 years old.

[Host]

Now you women are yelling at your radios right now. You're pissed. But you wanted to hear what guys think. And this is a red flag for a guy right here. This is it. What's up, Jeff?

[Jeff]

I want to know about when you're pursuing a woman, what the response time should be for her. Like, we talk about it a lot on the show, like women being too eager or calling you too fast or returning call too fast or returning the text messages too quickly. And we talk about how men are hunters, Let them hunt. And so can you. Each of us, like, each of you go down the line and sort of maybe give us a guideline on response time when you first start dating someone.

[Host]

Chris, you want to start, oh, I get to. Chris always has this, this look of panic in his eyes. You guys promised to be totally honest, so do it.

[Chris]

It's not the honesty. It's. The questions are so subjective. I mean, it's, it is case by case, you know, scenario. But for the most part, it's just. It should be long enough to where they don't seem like they're waiting around, but not so long. Where they seem like they're playing games is probably the best way I can answer that. If a girl, for me personally is seemingly intentionally taking a long time to text back and it's routine, then you start to get annoyed and it's like, this is kind of, this is kind of waste of time. So, you know, that's about. It's a general. But it's.

[Jeff]

But if she hits you back in half a second, you think she's desperate?

[Chris]

Well, not necessarily. I mean, I'm assuming by the hit back we're talking about text in today's day. But I mean, it's. No, it's. If she's always that available, maybe. But for the most part, you know, the first few times you're getting to know someone, I wouldn't think it's. Wouldn't think it's weird.

[Host]

When is the appropriate time to hit somebody back?

[Griff]

Actually, you know what, it's weird, Burt, because I'm an entertainer and I've always been somebody to say, let me call you back, you know, and it might take me a day or it might take me way, way later than they would have expected. And I've never really got caught up in a female over texting and stuff like that, you know what I'm saying? Kind of used to getting over, text over called. I just have to call back at my own pace. I don't like people that say you said you was going to call and you didn't. Like that's a problem. You know that, like, that means you have little patience. That means you. And that's a huge flag too. Ladies. You said you was going to call back, but you didn't. I've been waiting for your call. Like things not to say, making yourself too available.

[Host]

I think the real question here is if you are going to give women advice. Joel, if you're going to err, do you err on the side of being available or the she, I should say be on the side of being available or not being available for you?

[Joel]

You know, it's unfortunate that you have to, but you have to play the game. You have to. I mean, if you don't play the game, then you're, you know, the other person is. So I found that in my pursuit. By the way, I think I told you this. The Bible for guys is the game. If you haven't read that book, guys or girls, pick it up. Because, guys, it's all the best advice on how to pick up women, how to play the game, and women, it's everything that you're being done. Every game that's ever been played on you is in that book. So I would say err on the side of caution. When first starting to date a girl. My response time on eharmony is usually,

[Host]

gary, do you. Should a woman err on the side of being too available or being too. What's the word I'm looking for? Not available.

[Gary]

I actually kind of like it when a girl's available.

[Host]

You did?

[Gary]

When I send her a text or a phone call, I like when she answers back.

[Host]

You want it back immediately?

[Gary]

Not immediately, but if I know she's sitting around her house doing nothing, I want her to give me a text back.

[Host]

All right. And Chris, you said that's game to game, girl to girl.

[Chris]

You're in situation, situation. So it's, you know, but it's. I think the air would be on the side of just respect and what seems comfortable.

[Host]

Kimberly, good morning. You're on the Guy with the guys panel. Go ahead.

[Caller]

Good morning.

[Host]

Hey.

[Caller]

Love your show.

[Host]

Thank you.

[Caller]

I'm just calling this morning about strong personalities in women. How do you guys feel about that?

[Host]

Joel, you want to take that one first? Strong personalities in women. What exactly is your question?

[Caller]

My question is, is it a turn off for you for a woman with a strong personality?

[Joel]

You know, that's a good question because

[Host]

you picked a kind of passive one there. Molly. No.

[Joel]

Molly. Yeah, exactly. If anybody has a. An aggressive personality, you know, I think it depends on the personality of the guy. You know, for somebody that has a, you know, a lot of energy and a lot. Like, for me, I'm. I like to be the center of attention. So it helps to have somebody else that can share in that spotlight and be wild and go to bars and get crazy. But I've dated girls in the past that were very passive, and it just complete clash of personalities that just didn't work. I think it depends on the guy.

[Host]

How about you, Gary? Where are you coming with that?

[Gary]

I like a girl to be confident in her personality, but I don't want her to, you know, think she's better than anybody else. Think she's better than Me and. And, you know, just try to prove that on time in and time out.

[Host]

Is there. Have you ever met a woman that's too confident for you?

[Gary]

No.

[Host]

Never.

[Gary]

Never.

[Host]

Great.

[Griff]

I actually am the opposite. I love a strong. You know, what other men would call a mean female? I've never called a female mean. I don't think it's a such thing as a mean female. I think it's a bunch of soft dudes that let a woman that's assertive, you know, walk on them. But I think that's. I mean, I. Would a man, a real man, want a queen? You don't want somebody that's. My wife is a sergeant first class in the military, a recruiter. She a Scorpio. I mean, she is very aggressive female. But I love it though, because I make her be a woman.

[Host]

And I think guys get bored with passive women. For the most part. You just get bored at the end of the day.

[Griff]

Cause they just gonna be there. You know what I'm saying? They go, women, that's whatever you want to do. I want to cheat on you. How about that? The first show.

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[Host]

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[Joel]

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[Host]

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