Vault: Should teachers have Tenure?

Summary

The Bert Show: "Vault: Should Teachers Have Tenure?" (July 23, 2026)

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the heated debate around teacher tenure, merit-based pay, and standardized testing in Georgia's public school system. With legislation under consideration in the state senate, the cast and a slew of teachers weigh in on whether tenure should remain, what fair teacher evaluation looks like, and how standardized testing impacts educators and students alike. Listeners are invited to share their perspectives, adding depth and real-world context to the policy discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Debate (01:00 - 02:20)

• Backdrop: The hosts introduce the topic, noting that proposed bills could fundamentally change how teachers are paid—potentially by student performance rather than experience or tenure status.
• Governance Context: School funding, tenure protections, and educational outcomes are highly politicized in Georgia. Political shifts often hinge on the support of the teachers’ lobby.

2. Explaining Tenure and Merit Pay (02:20 - 03:52)

• Definition: Tenure provides job security for teachers after a set period (typically four years in Georgia), historically protecting more experienced teachers from layoffs.
• Change afoot: The old "last in, first out" policy is moving toward evaluations and merit-based systems.
• Race to the Top: Federal incentives encourage states to link teacher pay to student performance; Georgia lost out on a federal grant, intensifying pressure for reform.
• Core Question: Are more experienced, tenured teachers always the best? Or does the system need to prioritize those with proven student outcomes?

3. Concerns About Fairness and Evaluation (03:52 - 05:55)

• Merit Pay Complexity: Many hosts feel, on instinct, that teachers should be judged on student outcomes. But guest teachers highlight pitfalls:
  • Student Baseline Variance: Not all students start at the same level (e.g., special education, English learners, disadvantaged backgrounds).
  • Evaluation Anxiety: Teachers worry about pay linked to factors outside their control—student attendance, home support, or severe resource limitations.
• Notable Quote:

  "I teach special ed reading at a middle school... How are you going to judge me based on my 6th graders who come in at a 1st grade reading level? And you’re using a standardized test measure that’s for their grade level. I don’t want to be graded on that."
  – Connie, President-elect, Cobb County Association of Educators (05:03)

4. Listener Call-ins: Voices from the Field

Multiple teachers call in to provide frontline insight:

a. Current State of Tenure (06:15 - 06:34)

• Regional Differences: Some Atlanta-metro counties (like Fulton and Cobb) have already eliminated true tenure; teacher cuts are more often based on annual evaluations.

b. Standardized Testing Flaws (06:52 - 07:32)

• Uncontrollable Factors: Teacher pay and evaluation are tied to standardized test scores (CRCT) and student attendance—both largely influenced by family situation and not strictly by teaching quality.
• Notable Quote:

  "It’s highly based off of CRCT, the standardized test, and attendance, as if the teacher has any control over whether her students come to school or not."
  – Jessica, Elementary Teacher (07:00)

c. Student Growth Over Single Tests (07:46 - 08:22)

• Growth Matters: Teacher pay should reflect student improvement over time, not just a single high-stakes exam, given issues like test anxiety and home environment.
• Notable Quote:

  "I don’t think we should base merit pay on one test. It should be based on the growth of the individual student... you can’t base it on one test because you have test anxiety, you have kids that stay up until 10 o’clock at night and fall asleep during the test."
  – Susan, 4th and 5th Grade Math Teacher (07:46)

d. Advanced Degrees and Collaboration (08:26 - 09:28)

• Degree vs. Results: Pay differentials exist for advanced degrees, but teachers question whether higher education credentials alone correspond to better student outcomes.
• Collaboration could erode if teachers start competing for merit pay based on their students' scores.

e. Testing Doesn’t Fit All (09:42 - 10:19)

• Vocational Students: Standardized tests don’t align with vocational or technical tracks; these students’ unique skills aren’t reflected in outcomes, muddling fair comparison across teachers.
• Notable Quote:

  "My students, whether they come in on a second or third grade reading level, are tested right along with everybody else, which I don’t have a problem with merit pay. But the students who are in the technical school, the test that they take does not reflect anything that they will have to do when they graduate from high school."
  – Ali, 11th Grade English Teacher (09:44)

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Policy & News Context (10:29 - 10:47)

• Legislative Momentum: The bill (Senate Bill 521) is up for a vote, with protests expected at the Capitol. It’s unclear if it will pass, but educators are voicing fierce opposition.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• "[Tenured teachers]—maybe get a little lazy because they know they’re not going anywhere."
  – Host (04:11)
• "The problem with Race to the Top is they didn’t invite teachers, they didn’t invite the stakeholders to the table to develop the measures. We don’t have a problem with pay for performance if it is done fair and equal. Right now, it’s not."
  – Connie (05:03)
• "If my students are being graded on how I’m doing, then I don’t think teachers are going to work well together."
  – Sarah, 7th Grade Teacher (09:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:00 – Discussion of proposed merit pay legislation
• 02:14 – Explanation of tenure and its impact
• 03:52 – Overview of changing teacher evaluations
• 05:03 – Teacher call-in (Connie) explains unfairness of current measures
• 07:00 – Teacher call-in (Jessica) on standardized tests and attendance
• 07:46 – Teacher call-in (Susan) on basing pay on student growth
• 09:42 – Teacher call-in (Ali) on vocational students and testing
• 10:29 – Legislative update and protest info

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Tone & Takeaways

Throughout, the show strikes a conversational, genuine tone—mixing humor and candor while giving teachers space to express deep frustrations and nuanced perspectives. The consensus among educators is that any pay-for-performance framework must account for student starting points, growth, and the realities of their schools' diverse populations, rather than relying on rigid, one-size-fits-all tests or seniority alone.

The episode is invaluable listening for anyone seeking to understand the real-world effects of educational policy debates and why tenure, merit pay, and standardized testing are such complex, emotionally charged topics.

Transcript

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[A]

You're on the Birch Show.

[D]

All right. Teachers, teachers, teachers, teachers. You guys, man, we might open up a. Just a floodgate of calls here because I think some teachers are kind of freaked out about this whole thing. 404-741-Q100 we're talking about merit pay based

[E]

on, you know, teachers getting paid based on their students performance. Because I moved here in 92, okay. And I was here when Governor Zell Miller was in office. And I. One thing I learned about the state of Georgia, unlike where I came from in Tennessee, is that education makes or breaks. A gubernatorial candidate like Roy, Roy Barnes got elected because he had the backing of the teachers. And then, you know, there was this perception that they, he disappointed him. So Governor Perdue got in office because he had the backing of the teachers. I didn't notice this during elections in Tennessee. Georgia is. If you don't have the teachers backing, you cannot run this state.

[F]

And apparently Barnes was going to change it to this to get rid of tenure.

[E]

Well, there's been so many, so many education issues. I mean, yes, because. Because it has to do with national test scoring. Because you know, now that we have all these test scores and Georgia usually rank at the top of this, that

[D]

they're, they're not anywhere near the top. That was being very kind.

[E]

So the debate is tenure. If you, if you're a teacher and you have tenure, you don't have to worry about losing your job. You know what I mean? Even if you're.

[D]

Explain what tenure is for those that have no idea what that word means.

[E]

I don't know how in Georgia, how long you have to be a teacher? Four years. Four years, okay.

[F]

You have to be, it doesn't matter if it's 4 or 30. That means you have 10 years. So if they have to make cuts, typically in the past it's been the last ones in, are the first ones to go. So if you are a brand new teacher and maybe you have the highest level of education, education, and you're the most technologically advanced and maybe you're even the best teacher in your entire school, that didn't matter before because the teachers that had been there longer than you four years or more were the ones that were saved and you were the one that got cut. But now that's all changing. It's going to be based on evaluations.

[E]

Right? And there's. Today is the last day of the state legislature and there's a bill before the Senate, the state Senate that has to do with merit pay. Okay. And this all stems from, I mean there's such a history. But right now, if you remember, the White House is actually, you know, President Obama wants performance based pay for teachers. And so they started a program called Race to the Top and each state was competing for a grant from the, from the White House. And Georgia did not, did not make the cut. They came in third and missed a $400 million grant. Now the Race to the Top is still, is still in play. So Georgia is still trying to make that, you know, get grant money. But so that's why there is a bill before the Senate now talking about merit pay. So basically, like Jim was saying, instead of it being about you not getting judged as a tenured teacher, it's like you get judged on your student's performance and you get your pay scale is based on that too. Which is bringing to light the issue of our tenured teachers. Actually the better teachers.

[D]

404-741-Q100 this is an uneducated opinion right now that I have, but it sure seems like just at first listen that don't you want the teachers there that are giving you the best, your children the best results? Like, wouldn't you?

[G]

That's what I would say.

[F]

You want the best teachers for kids, not necessarily the ones that have been

[D]

there the longest, because perhaps the ones that have been there the longest maybe get a little lazy because they know they're not going anymore.

[H]

They know they're safe.

[F]

Right.

[D]

That's my initial nature.

[E]

And we're not teachers in Here. So if teachers want to correct if I'm wrong, then correct me if I'm wrong. But it just seems like this is just all relative to things that have been going on in the state for over a decade.

[D]

Shanhavi, how do you know so much about this?

[F]

I just. I just happen to know somebody in education.

[D]

Good morning, Connie, you're on Q100. Hi.

[G]

Good morning.

[I]

Bird Show.

[G]

Hi.

[F]

Good.

[D]

You sound. You sound like a teacher.

[I]

This is a very, very important issue. I am president elect of the Cobb county association of Educators and on my way right now to go lobby against the House Bill 215 21, proposing more of an idea towards pay performance.

[E]

Did I get that right? Everything that I. The way I described it.

[I]

Okay.

[D]

Okay.

[I]

Excellent synopsis. The problem we have with the bill right now is, and the problem with Race to the Top is they didn't invite teachers, they didn't invite the stakeholders to the table to develop the measures. We don't have a problem with pay for performance if it is done fair and equal. Right now, it's not. I teach special ed reading at a middle school in Cobb that is, you know, economically disadvantaged, 40% Hispanic, all of that. How are you going to judge me based on my 6th graders who come in at a 1st grade reading level? And you're using a standardized test measure that's for their grade level. I don't want to be graded on that. And I don't want my administrator, who may or may not know me like me or whatever, affecting my pay.

[D]

That's a really good point. Now I'm on your side.

[G]

Well, there you go.

[I]

That's what I love. No, I want to hear what Jeff thinks.

[D]

He's not in here.

[E]

Unfortunately. He's not in the room.

[D]

Yeah, you lost him.

[I]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

We could change things. If everything's on an equal playing level, then I would get it. But if it's uneven, and that's not really fair either.

[D]

Here's Misha. Good morning, Misha. You're on Q100.

[G]

Yeah, hi.

[I]

Lord Lawrence got rid of tenured, so

[G]

we no longer have that. Yeah, we still have the system of seniority.

[I]

If you've been in a school longer, you might not get cut, but it's

[G]

been on evaluation for a long time,

[I]

especially in my county.

[D]

Which county is that?

[I]

It's Fulton.

[C]

Okay.

[I]

So there's no longer tenure.

[F]

Okay.

[E]

So that's what Jim was referring to, is that Roy Bunch got rid of tenure.

[F]

Oh, he wanted to. And that's why some people say he wasn't reelected but she just said, well, in Fulton and Cobb, it's that way.

[E]

Okay.

[F]

As far as my limited knowledge goes.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah, we're all a little uneducated about this. Good morning, Jessica. You're on the Burt Show.

[I]

Hey, good morning, guys.

[G]

Hi. I just want to say that the

[I]

dirty little secret that they're not talent is that it's highly based off of crct, the standardized test and attendance, as if the teacher has any control over whether her students come to school or not. Especially in elementary school, if a parent's

[G]

not going to bring their kid, they're

[I]

not going to bring their kid. And that is very out of our control. And the crct, you include special ed and everything.

[G]

And if that's the case, then how

[I]

can you tell us that we're responsible for that?

[H]

Yeah, that's my problem.

[E]

I'm not a teacher. I'm a daughter of a teacher and I just. The standardized. I'm not comfortable with the standardized test. I think it's so impersonal. But I understand, though, on a national level. How do you know?

[F]

Do they know?

[D]

Hey, Susan. Good Morning. You're on Q100.

[G]

Hi. Good morning, guys. Hello. I teach elementary school. I teach fourth and fifth grade math. And I teach specifically the students who did not meet standard on the last CRCT test. And I don't think we should base merit pay on one test. I think it should be based on the growth of the individual student. So that shows the teacher's performance because it shows how much they've progressed through the year. But you can't base it on one test because you have test anxiety. You have kids that stay up until 10 o' clock at night and fall asleep during the test. And I don't think that our pay should be based on one test. It should be based on their growth.

[D]

Here is Sarah, who wants to be on the voice discussor. Hey, Sarah. Good morning.

[H]

Hi, how are you? I'm a seventh grade teacher and I feel that it should be based on your pay. I know there's a lot of teachers that have our school district pays on the degree that you have. And I think if you're somebody who has a PhD or a specialist degree, that you should have to include and incorporate more of your ideas or you should have to apply for different grants if you're going to get paid for that level of your degree.

[F]

So what difference does it make use in pay?

[H]

Like for example, I only. I'm a mom and I only have my bachelor's degree. But somebody at my school who may have their specialist or PhD is at a higher pay level than I am, Even though we may be teaching the same activities, they're technically getting paid more than I am because they have that higher degree.

[F]

And are their students performing better or worse than your students?

[H]

I don't know. I don't have the data for that. But I think we all work together, like for collaborative planning. And I think if it were to come out that if my students are being graded on how I'm doing, then I don't think teachers are going to work well together.

[F]

I don't.

[D]

What are you smirking about, Melissa?

[E]

I'm just like, I think it's ironic that a teacher is discussing the debate on whether a teacher should be more educated than.

[D]

There is some irony there in there. A little irony here is Ali. Good morning. You are on the Bert Show.

[G]

Hey, good morning.

[E]

Morning.

[D]

Good morning.

[G]

I teach 11th grade world lit at a Carroll county school and that's the graduation test. I teach both graduation tests for the English department. And my students, whether they come in on a second or third grade reading level, are tested right along with everybody else, which I don't have a problem with merit pay. But the students who are in the technical school, the test that they take does not reflect anything that they will have to do when they graduate from high school. There's not a technical portion of it. So whether or not they pass the test is not necessarily measured. How they may have a computer test that they take that they excel at, but they're measured right along with everyone else.

[D]

Well, this gives you a little taste, if you're a parent, on what's going on not so far behind the scenes at your schools here. And there are a lot of different things to take into place before you make an opinion on it.

[E]

And like one of the teachers said, I mean, it is today, like I said, the last day of the state legislature. And the name of the bill is the Senate Bill 521. Now, my understanding is that they don't think they're going to have enough votes to pass it. But you'll definitely see probably on the news tonight the protesters out at the Capitol, you know, talking about this.

[D]

Listen, it's the Virt show.

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