Vault: The Princess and The Frog Controversy

Summary

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The Bert Show: Vault—The Princess and The Frog Controversy

Episode Date: May 27, 2026
Main Theme:
A candid, multi-perspective discussion about the racial and cultural controversy surrounding Disney’s "The Princess and the Frog," the first Disney movie to feature a Black princess. The cast, listeners, and even children weigh in on representation, criticism of Disney’s approach, and the meaning such movies hold for both kids and parents.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance and Excitement of Representation

• Carl and Bert share their kids’ anticipation for the film. Both note their daughters' excitement, especially Bert’s daughter, who recognized the significance of the “first Black princess” on her own.
  • Bert (03:09): "She said, daddy, this is the first black princess..."
• The panel emphasizes how meaningful it is for Black children to see themselves reflected in a Disney princess, a recurring theme with personal anecdotes.

The Controversy Explained

• Origin of the Controversy: Carl summarizes the backlash that began when the lead character’s name and occupation were announced (originally a maid named Maddie for a white family), prompting Disney to change her to Tiana, an aspiring chef.
• Ambiguous Race of Prince Naveen: Discussion centers on Disney choosing a racially ambiguous prince instead of a Black one, raising questions in the Black community about why they weren't represented as both princess and prince.
  • Main Host (Carl, 05:34): "We can have a black president in office but not a black Disney prince?"

Is the Criticism Justified?

• Diverse Reactions among Cast and Callers:
  • Some think it's an overreaction and that adults are reading into a kid’s movie.
  • Others, particularly Black parents, articulate how representation (or the lack thereof) in both characters can have a deeper, lasting impact, especially over generations.
  • Caller Joy (13:59): "We should be happy about having a black princess. Stop criticizing about who cares about what color the prince is..."

Generational Differences in Response

• Older generation deeply affected: Bert notes that the film’s representation resonates profoundly with his wife, mother, and sisters—adults raised without empowering Black princesses to look up to.
  • Bert (09:45): "It's not just my daughter that's excited. It's my wife, my mom, my sisters..."

The “Frog Problem” Critique

• Another layer of controversy: Some critique the fact that in her only Disney film, the Black princess spends most of the movie as a frog rather than herself.
  • Caller Ross (10:57): "The first black movie with a black princess in it. She becomes a frog. They're going backwards instead of forward."

Debating the Message Sent by Disney

• White prince vs. Multiracial prince: The cast debates whether the ambiguity in the prince's ethnicity is Disney avoiding controversy or genuinely aiming for inclusivity.
  • Main Host (Carl, 07:53): "So if he was white, you'd have a problem with it. But the fact that we really don't know..."
• Representation in products and costumes: There’s gratitude for finally having Black princess imagery in merchandise.
  • Bert (13:29): "Every princess has the princess of Cinderella on the front... But I wanted to see you. I want to see myself."

The Larger Cultural Context

• Hollywood’s reluctance to pair Black leads in mainstream films: Commentator 2 observes that Hollywood has long avoided pairing Black actors as couples in mass-market movies, citing "Hitch" and exceptions like "Obsessed."

Is It “Just a Cartoon”?

• Some argue for letting kids enjoy it uncritically: Multiple hosts and callers reference how adults tend to overanalyze and children are the film’s actual audience.
  • Caller Joy (15:27): "It's a cartoon, it's a story... when you were 5, it was everything. Enjoy it instead of analyze everything to death right now."
• Counter-argument: Others insist responsible representation is crucial in children's media because of its influence on self-image and aspirations.
  • Commentator 2 (16:08): "When I was five years old, these cartoon were everything... So it is so important for cartoons to be responsible..."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Representation’s Emotional Impact

• Bert’s daughter’s reaction (Awareness of Representation)
  • 03:09, Bert: "She said, daddy, this is the first black princess."
• Bert on who is truly affected (Women in his family):
  • 09:45, Bert: "It's not just my daughter that's excited. It's my wife, my mom, my sisters..."

The “Prince Problem”

• 05:34, Main Host (Carl): "We can have a black president in office but not a black Disney prince?"
• 07:59, Bert: "If he was white, it kind of... it's not really... the whole thing is that it's the first black princess and something that our black little girls can look up to... But he marries a white guy... that would kind of..."

The “Frog Problem”

• 10:57, Caller Ross: "The first black movie with a black princess in it. She becomes a frog. They're going backwards instead of forward."

Recognizing Cultural Differences

• 14:51, Main Host (Carl): "White people are gonna have a tendency, I think, to brush something like this off... if you're a white person... you don't know the black culture. And you've never had to live in the black culture your entire life..."

The Kids’ Perspective

• Hayden’s funny movie review (02:22–02:32):
  • "My favorite part of the movie was when the frog was going to kiss the princess and then his mouth went up and then a sack came out. He went. It all threw up in the theater. It smelled really bad."
• Hayden’s plot summary (16:26):
  • "The movie is about a prince that, that is really charming and handsome. And the next thing we notice, he's a frog..."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:36] Introduction of topic: cast and families watching "Princess and the Frog"
• [02:22] Hayden’s (child) review—memorable moment and childhood perspective
• [03:01] Bert describes why his daughter is so excited—representation matters
• [04:24] Main Host introduces the controversy—article and summary
• [05:34] Debate on prince’s ethnicity and should it matter—multiracial ambiguity
• [08:38] Commentator observes Hollywood’s reluctance for Black couples in mainstream films
• [10:19] Caller Ross—raises concern that the Black princess spends most of her movie as a frog
• [13:03] Discussion shifts to princess costumes and how Black children will now have tangible representation
• [13:59] Caller Joy suggests perhaps the criticism is “overreacting”
• [14:51] Carl emphasizes why white audiences cannot dismiss the controversy
• [16:08] Commentator 2 pushes back—media representation in cartoons is vital for kids

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Summary Flow & Tone

The conversation is playful, candid, and at times humorous, but layered with thoughtful personal experiences and cultural reality checks. The cast brings in listener calls and even the unvarnished opinions of children, keeping the tone accessible but honest. Disagreement is handled with curiosity and empathy, giving weight both to the excitement of kids finally seeing a Black princess and to concerns about how Disney handled the opportunity.

For listeners, this episode is a snapshot of a real, respectful debate over race, generational perspective, and media responsibility, laced with genuine affection and relatable family stories.

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Transcript

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[Main Host (Carl)]

Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. The Birch show and a whole bunch of you guys are gonna be seeing Princess and the Frog this weekend.

[Hayden (Child)]

I suppose you want to kiss?

[Main Host (Carl)]

Kissing would be nice. Yes. So I saw this movie last week with Hayden, at least three fourths of it before I left for the SEC championship. And I thought it was a great movie. I really thought it really is going to be like this classic Disney movie. It's not the computer generated animation that we're used to from Disney. They've gone back to like hand animation. It just had this really warm feel to it. It's a great movie.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

I got to see half of it cause I was in the same theater as Bert and was there with my goddaughter, who is not even three yet. So she didn't make it through the whole thing.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Oh yeah.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

She started running around in the aisles and so we bailed. So I don't know how it ends, but I did get to see the majority of it and thought it was a great movie.

[Main Host (Carl)]

This is Hayden's review of the movie.

[Hayden (Child)]

My favorite part of the movie was when the frog was going to kiss the princess and then his mouth went up and then a sack came out. He went. It all threw up in the theater. It smelled really bad. I would give this movie an A. It's another timeless classic from Disney.

[Main Host (Carl)]

A timeless classic.

[Commentator 1]

How old is he?

[Main Host (Carl)]

Seven years old. Timeless, timeless classic. So producer Carl here, he was excited about the movie. His baby girl was excited about the movie also. And she's Howell.

[Bert]

She's eight.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Eight. And why more excited about this Disney movie than others?

[Bert]

And you know what, I asked her about that too. The reason I specifically asked her, why was she so excited? She said, daddy, this is the first black princess and I want to go sit on your lap. So she, she's aware that now I've never told her that and. But she is aware that this is the first black princess.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Now how would she know that? She's watching tv. School, I'm sure.

[Bert]

School. And her friends. My eight year old, she hangs with a real high IQ level of friends, so I'm sure they probably tell. I'm sure they've talked about it and everything. So we've been up on this for the last, what, since Disney on Ice. So we saw the Disney on Ice back in September. The next thing you know, I started seeing a bunch of Princess and the frog books come across in the house laying around. So my wife's been buying it. So I've been knowing about this, but I wasn't really aware that she was. I didn't feed it to her like this is the first black princess. She just picked up on it. And that just shows to me how important it is to her subconsciously. So.

[Main Host (Carl)]

So when she said that to you, were you like all of a sudden excited about taking her exact movie?

[Bert]

Exactly. At first I was because I knew it was the first black princess and all that, but when she recognized it and I saw like the twinkle in her eye and she was just like, oh yeah. That made me want to go ahead and just push this along and keep it, you know, keep it in the forefront for my three year old too. She's even starting to realize it.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

Oh, that's so Cute.

[Main Host (Carl)]

So I. I went to see the movie and I totally forgot about the whole controversy thing.

[Bert]

You know what?

[Commentator 1]

But what's the kind. I don't know what the controversy is.

[Bert]

I didn't even know there was controversy until this morning.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Well, here it is. It's. The headline is, does Disney's Princess and the Frog deserve the Controversy? And it's a little bit lengthy, so let me just skip around a little bit. In 2006, when Disney first announced they were finally bringing a black princess to the big screen with Princess and the Frog, it was cause for celebration. Long overdue, yet still worth celebrating. The honeymoon didn't last long. The first cries of foul came quickly, with critics bemoaning the lead character's announced name and occupation. She'd be a maid for a white family named Maddie. When her name and occupation were labeled demeaning, Disney was quick to respond, renaming the heroine Tiana and recasting her as a chef. So crisis was averted until early this year anyway, when it was revealed that our groundbreaking African American princess would not in fact, be falling in love with an African American prince. It's unclear what ethnicity her dreamy Prince Naveen is. Exactly. And I've seen the movie, and I didn't know if he was white or if he was black or he was Middle Eastern.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

Middle Eastern. I was thinking Middle Eastern.

[Main Host (Carl)]

This goes on to say his first name is Indian, he's from the fictional land of Maldonia, and he's voiced by a Brazilian actor. But he's certainly not black. Nor white for that matter. As reported in some camps, outrage ensued, with the popular refrain coming in question form. We can have a black president in office but not a black Disney prince. Are the criticisms warranted or are the reactions excessive? Depends on how you look at it. This article says there are some reasonable questions being asked. If a film set in 1920s New Orleans where most of the characters are black, why isn't the prince? Why make the princess clearly culturally definable, yet the Prince ambiguous? After 70 years of white princess, doesn't the black community deserve a prince to call their own? And on the other hand, at the same time, shouldn't we credit Disney for diversifying their portfolio and promoting internal interracial relationships? Won't this scenario help teach our kids about racial tolerance? Aren't we all just overreacting here? After all, this is an animated movie for kids about people who transform themselves into frogs. The main characters even spend most of their screen time as reptile amphibians. So why should race even be an issue here. So the question remains, this article says, does Disney deserve all this controversy?

[Commentator 1]

You know what? I'd be fascinated to know on Monday

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without

[Commentator 1]

influencing her at all. I'd like to know if your daughter notices. We can debate it here, but I would like to know on Monday morning if your daughter comes in during the movie, says, daddy, how come black.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Right?

[Bert]

Right. You mean the black prince?

[Main Host (Carl)]

Yeah.

[Bert]

I don't think she would. And actually, that's what I was gonna say when I first heard that the prince. When I went to the Disney on Ice and saw the prince was a white guy, I. I raised the eyebrow, like, huh? You know, like, okay, well, all right, well, it's not me. I'm a grown man, so it may affect me. But I thought about that, what you said, Bert, that it's not gonna affect my daughter, especially now, don't get me wrong. If it was a white guy, then it'll be like, maybe we're not, you know, crossing that barrier like I thought we were. But being that it's a multicultural type of person, like some guy from Maldonia who knows what he is, I can understand that.

[Main Host (Carl)]

So if he was white, you'd have a problem with it. But the fact that we really don't know, because he's certainly not white. But he's certainly not black.

[Bert]

Right. Because if he was white, it kind of. It's not really. The whole thing is that it's the first black princess and something that our black little girls can look up to and aspire to become. They can dream of becoming a princess, blah, blah, blah. But he marries a white guy. So, you know, that would kind of.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

That sends a different message.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Yeah. Even so. Even so. Like, this feels like such a contrived debate to me, because the fact of the matter is, in the movie, the. The dude's not white.

[Bert]

Right?

[Main Host (Carl)]

He's not. He's not black, he's not white. We don't know.

[Bert]

Right. And that's why I don't think that there's a big problem with the. Only with grownups, but with the children, I don't think it'll be an issue with my daughter at all.

[Commentator 2]

I just noticed, like, in movies, I mean, I did. I did notice that it wasn't a black prince when I first saw the commercials. And I've not. Because we. My friends, I've noticed in movies, if it's toward a mass audience, like a hitch, like with Will Smith, they don't put them with a black woman. But if it is a movie that is by a black director geared to a black audience. And they have a full, you know, if it's a Tyler Perry movie or if it's Kenan Wayans movie, they always have, you know, a black man and a black woman together. But mass market movies, they rarely put black and black in the title characters. It's always black and Hispanic.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

I think it is changing, though, because that Beyonce film obsessed that had a lead black couple, and that was a mainstream film, Right?

[Commentator 2]

That's true.

[Main Host (Carl)]

I'm always the first to say, you know, there are some people that love to use the cliche that I don't see color. I just don't see color. And I'm always the first to say, I definitely see color, but I see it as a positive. Like, I see you black and you bring a cert. You bring things from your culture that I don't know about. I bring things from my culture. And I think that's a good thing, to see each other as different and accept each other. But in this movie, I didn't think about it twice. I never. I really didn't see color in this movie.

[Bert]

But you know what I think the most people, it's not just my daughter that's excited. It's my wife, my mom, my sisters. So I think the black princess and the white or something other than the black affects them more so than my daughter, because my daughter's coming with the next phase. She's not affected by that white type, you know, black type thing. So it's good to move forward, I can see. But I also feel the effect of my mom and my sisters and my wife and all of them.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Here's Ross. Good morning, Ross. Thanks for holding on, man.

[Caller Ross]

Hey, guys. How's it going to the site?

[Main Host (Carl)]

Okay, so you see the controversy with this thing. You think it's a problem?

[Caller Ross]

I think it's a problem first and foremost, like Carl was saying, like, my wife growing up, she was excited to hear that, hey, you know, there is a movie, Disney movie that's gonna feature a black princess. And then reading into it, come to find out, like you guys said this morning, the prince is really not black. You know, she grew up seeing, you know, Snow White and, you know, she. She's rescued by a friend, I think, or something like, what was the other one? Regardless of the fact. But she goes and kisses the frog and she becomes a frog, like one of the known ugly creatures on this earth.

[Caller Joy]

It's.

[Caller Ross]

They get to kiss a prince and, you know, they get to wake up. She gets her prince, you know, she's running around shoeless and stuff. And the first black movie with a black princess in it. She becomes a frog. They're going backwards instead of forward.

[Commentator 2]

Really.

[Commentator 1]

I think that might be thinking one step too far into it. Like that's. I mean, it's a story about. It's a cartoon.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Remember now you're coming from a Caucasian background.

[Advertisement Host 3]

Right? Right.

[Commentator 1]

But I think, I mean, but that's

[Main Host (Carl)]

how fairy tales go.

[Advertisement Host 1]

Yeah, they're supposed to be like that. But I think the imagination.

[Commentator 1]

Cinderella turned back into the, you know, housekeeper at midnight and. Yeah, and the print. Yeah.

[Bert]

But just like how you all are naming five different type of stories where you can always also revert to. This is the one story that black, Black women feel that they have to revert to. And it's not first.

[Commentator 2]

Hopefully this is not gonna only be the one that.

[Bert]

And this is the one and only right now. So just like it's. I can understand what Ross is saying because for older people it's more important than it is just for the younger people. And this is just that one story. And then within that one story, it's not black this and black that. It's that one black and light skinned guys. And, you know, it's just not direct.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

I'm more offended by the Prince Charming concept than the rest of it. Like that we're still teaching our little girls like that.

[Commentator 2]

Prince Charming's gonna come in and make

[Main Host (Carl)]

it all better for you.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

That to me should be more offensive to your daughters than.

[Main Host (Carl)]

It's just a cartoon.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

It's just a cartoon.

[Commentator 2]

But it's the same thing.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

I mean, it's all these themes that we're teaching them or whatever. I know that's a different topic than what we're on, but come on. Prince Charming's not coming to save you. Save yourself, sister.

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And I was right.

[Bert]

Hero. And I was reading this morning because like I said, I didn't realize a controversy. Right. So I was reading online some of the reviews and everything. And one of the other controversies was that the guy, the. The lady was a princess and she kissed. She basically kissed a frog and became a princess and was a frog the whole movie. So that was another part of the controversy.

[Main Host (Carl)]

I don't understand that point.

[Commentator 1]

That's what that guy was just saying

[Commentator 2]

is that there's not a lot of princess on screen.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Oh, I see. This is a frog and we don't get to see.

[Bert]

Exactly.

[Main Host (Carl)]

I got you. I gotcha.

[Commentator 2]

The one thing I think is also so important is, you know, you talk about your Family. But like, when we go on Burt's Big Adventure, one of the things that Walt Disney World has is princess gowns, right? And they have the picture of the princess on the chest for the gowns. And so I am so excited that there is going to be a choice for black children to be able to go to Walt Disney World and not have to pick from all the white or even, you know, even Indian princesses. They actually have one for themselves.

[Bert]

That's the controversy that I have every year. Every year around Halloween time, when my daughter wants to be a princess, I'm like, yeah, baby, you can be a princess. But every princess has the princess of Cinderella on the front. And don't get me wrong, I'm not, you know, I'm not racist. But I wanted to see you. I want to see myself.

[Commentator 2]

You want to see yourself.

[Bert]

So I can really appreciate Disney for doing this for the last 100 years. Hey, Mary.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Good morning.

[Caller Joy]

Hi. Good morning. I love you guys.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Thank you. Loving you right back, darling.

[Caller Joy]

Yes. I think we're just overreacting a little bit sometimes. I don't know, we, as black people, we can tend to criticize every little thing. And I just feel like, you know, what's the big deal? I mean, we should be happy about having a black princess. Stop criticizing about who cares about what color the prince is. I mean, this movie is for kids anyway. Are you looking at that? I mean, sometimes we, as adults, we need to kind of, you know, just step back from that.

[Main Host (Carl)]

There is no way to make everybody happy, I guess, in a movie like this.

[Bert]

Well, and for, to her, to her response, I mean, she said, what's the big deal? You could think that, but when your 8 year old daughter comes to you and notices that that's a big deal.

[Main Host (Carl)]

It is, right?

[Bert]

Subconsciously she noticed that. So it is a big deal. And I think you should take it as a big deal.

[Main Host (Carl)]

And I also want to remind, you know, like, white people are gonna have a tendency, I think, to brush something like this off and say that there's no controversy at all. But if you're a white person, you, you don't know the black culture. And you've never had to live in the black culture your entire life and know what that's like, right? So you really can't brush it off. You really can't, because we just don't know.

[Bert]

Dang, Bert, you got a black pass, man.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Finally got the pass. Finally got it.

[Bert]

It took this long.

[Commentator 1]

It's not that permanent. You still have an elf on the shelf.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Hey, Joy, what's up?

[Caller Joy]

Hey, good morning, Bird Show. I really enjoy you guys every day.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Thank you.

[Caller Joy]

I guess I'm just not aware so much of the racial controversy that doesn't cross my mind. But now that I've heard this, I do think it's kind of cool that the little black girls will have a princess that they feel like they can identify. And I think that's cool. But I almost feel like, you know, Woody in Toy Story needs to say it's a cartoon. You know the line from Toy Story where he tells Buzz Lightyear, you're a toy, you're a child. And I it's a cartoon, it's a story. And but when you were 5, it was everything. Enjoy it instead of analyze everything to death right now.

[Main Host (Carl)]

And adults do that. We leave that for the adults, not for the kids.

[Parent 1 (possibly Bert's partner)]

Yeah.

[Commentator 2]

And the only thing I want to disagree with is when I was five years old, these cartoon were everything, all you know. Yeah, it's all you know. So it is so important for cartoons to be responsible in the best way they can for these children.

[Main Host (Carl)]

So, Hayden, my 7 year old, what is this story all about?

[Hayden (Child)]

The movie is about a prince that, that is really charming and handsome. And the next thing we notice, he's a frog. And then his servant, he's. He's the prince. And then, and then the prince kisses them. Then the prince kisses the, then the princess kisses the frog. And then she turned to rock and they go in this adventure, meet this alligator. They go to Gaga's and then, and then they kiss. And then the girl kissed them. And then they came. They became humans again.

[Main Host (Carl)]

Your kids ever get like that? They have so much they want to say and they just can't get it through the filter fast enough.

[Bert]

It sounds like Phineas and Furby right in front of them. That's what it sounds like.

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