Vault: We Take A Deep Look Into A Website For Cheaters

Summary

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The Bert Show Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Vault: We Take A Deep Look Into A Website For Cheaters
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Pionaire Podcasting
Episode Focus: The episode dives into the controversial business and ethical landscape surrounding the website AshleyMadison.com—an online platform specifically designed for married individuals seeking extramarital affairs. The operations manager, Darren, joins the panel for a candid discussion about human nature, morality, and whether his site enables or merely services existing desires.

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Episode Overview

The Bert Show hosts conduct a provocative and spirited interview with Darren, the operations manager for AshleyMadison.com, a website for married people seeking affairs. Debate quickly emerges around the legitimacy of the “myth of monogamy,” individual responsibility, and the broader societal implications of a company catering to infidelity. The episode oscillates between challenging questions, ethical arguments, and listener perspectives on whether businesses like AshleyMadison are simply fulfilling a market demand or exacerbating moral decline.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Website Statistics

• Host presents recent signup figures:
  • ~1,000 male profiles in Georgia (“female seeking men”)
  • 145 profiles of married women seeking affairs
• [00:54] Darren introduced as operations manager for AshleyMadison.com.

2. The ‘Myth of Monogamy’ Debate

• Darren:
  • Asserts the site is based on challenging the “myth of monogamy” ([01:18]).
  • Argues historic life expectancy and biological impulses contribute to infidelity:

    “...Hundreds and hundreds of years ago, we barely lived past age 25 or 30. ... Now that we're living to be 80, 90, 100 years old, ... our needs for a mate change as well.” ([01:35]–[02:24])

• Host & Panel Rebuttals:
  • Cassie: Firmly believes monogamy is a personal choice, not biological destiny:

    “If you choose to be married, you made that choice to be monogamous.... If you cannot stay with that choice and if you violate that choice and that trust, that is your fault and your fault alone.” ([02:25]–[03:13])

  • Host agrees natural instinct leans toward variety but asserts self-control is possible.

3. Responsibility & Enabling Cheating

• Darren:
  • Claims the website is a response to pre-existing behavior, not the cause ([05:21]):

    “People will cheat where there's an opportunity to do so if they're predisposed to it.”

• Panelists:
  • Counter that providing a tailored service enables and normalizes cheating ([05:20], [13:03]),
  • Draw analogies to the greeting card industry for cheaters, questioning where responsibility lies ([06:01]–[06:45]).

4. Why Not Just Divorce?

• Sharon:
  • Questions why not provide similar services for divorcees when divorce has also become socially acceptable ([04:07]).
• Darren:
  • Divorce isn’t an option for everyone due to children, religion, or cost:

    “Sometimes people, if somebody just feels that they have something in their system that they gotta get out... it's not worth leaving the relationship for.” ([04:36])

5. Justification & Morality

• Panelists challenge Darren’s reliance on evolutionary psychology as justification.
  • Sharon:

    “We have the mental capacity to make decisions above and beyond our animal instincts. ... we have brains, we have decision-making power, we know right from wrong.” ([09:44])

• Darren:
  • Insists the site meets demand and is not seeking to rationalize cheating, only to acknowledge real behavior ([10:29], [11:46]).

6. Personal Accountability and Pain of Cheating

• Listener Sherry:
  • Asks if Darren has personally experienced betrayal ([15:19]).
• Darren:
  • Admits both being cheated on and cheating in the past ([15:31]).

7. Questions About the Business

• Panel:
  • Asks about profit model: $55 minimum buy-in, average user spends $77, with $147 average revenue per subscriber ([16:41]–[17:32]).
  • Explore whether site posts only positive feedback—Darren claims most feedback is positive, with some hate mail ([17:43]).
• Membership:
  • Darren shares current members: ~535,000 ([18:59]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Darren on human nature:

  “I think it's just realizing and recognizing human nature and the human condition and accepting it as it is and accepting us for who we are. We’re flawed human beings.” ([01:18])

• Cassie on personal choice:

  “If you cannot stay with that choice and if you violate that choice and that trust, that is your fault and your fault alone. Not God’s, not biological, not your DNA.” ([02:25])

• Sharon on self-control:

  “Give me a break. We are not just animals. ... We have the mental capacity to make decisions above and beyond our animal instincts.” ([09:44])

• Angela (caller):

  “This guy’s an idiot. ... He’s like the drug pusher on the streets who says, ‘I’m just out here selling crack to people who are going to do it anyway.’ That’s ridiculous.” ([13:06])

• Darren’s pragmatic comparison:

  “There are a lot of vices...opportunities in society to abuse our freedoms and to abuse our choices, but it happens all the time.” ([16:00])

• Sherry (caller):

  “Knowing with the pain that goes through all that, then how can you feel good about facilitating a website like this?” ([15:39])

  • Darren:

    “I’m offering a service for somebody who needs and wants to use it. This is America.” ([15:45])

• Darren on business rationale:

  “If we felt that we were somehow potentially perpetuating infidelity and creating a market, then we probably wouldn’t do what we’re doing. But we know that we’re just servicing an existing market and appetite.” ([07:12])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:54: Darren introduced, initial website stats
• 01:18: Debate on myth of monogamy begins
• 02:25: Cassie refutes biological determinism, stresses choice
• 04:07: Panel addresses divorce vs. cheating
• 05:21: Is the website enabling infidelity?
• 06:01: Comparison to other industries—greeting cards for affairs
• 09:44: Panelists argue for personal responsibility over animal instinct
• 13:06: Angela (caller) likens Darren to a drug dealer
• 15:31: Darren personally admits experience with cheating
• 16:41: Details of payment structure on AshleyMadison.com
• 18:59: 535,000 current members disclosed
• 19:11: Hosts reflect on growing normalization of affairs

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Tone & Dynamics

The episode maintains a feisty, candid, and at times sarcastically humorous tone characteristic of The Bert Show. Panelists and listeners alike deliver passionate arguments, with heated yet controlled debate. Darren remains calm and rational, sticking to a business-like and pragmatic narrative, while hosts and callers challenge him vigorously on ethical and emotional grounds.

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Takeaways

• AshleyMadison.com does not create the desire to cheat but caters to it—and this is the core point of contention.
• There’s a significant philosophical split: Is infidelity fundamentally “natural” or a failure of character and commitment?
• The rise of such businesses points to changing attitudes—or perhaps growing ambivalence—about marriage and fidelity.
• Personal stories from hosts, listeners, and even Darren himself add emotional weight to what might otherwise be an abstract debate.

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This episode offers plenty for listeners to ponder on love, commitment, the limits of technology’s role in our relationships, and the gray divide between enabling and reflecting human nature.

Transcript

[A]

You're on the Burt Show. Okay. We've been talking now about getting Darren on for a couple of days now. And this is a website that specifically targets married people that are looking for relationships outside of their marriage. And I signed on yesterday to take a look at it, and I found out. Female seeking men. There are about a thousand profiles from Georgia available for you. That means a thousand men, if I'm interpreting this right, have gone on, filled out an application. And if you're a woman looking for a married man in Georgia to have a relationship with, you've got the pick of about a thousand different profiles there. Man seeking a female, 145 profiles. So there were 145 married women in Georgia that went to this website or on this website. Right now they're saying, look, I'm married, but I certainly am willing to date outside of my relationship. So. Hey, Darren, how are you today?

[B]

Good morning. I'm well. How about yourself?

[A]

Good. Darren is the operations manager at this website called AshleyMadison.com. let me give the phone number out now. 404-741-1005. And as I'm reading your website yesterday, Darren, there are some things about your website that I don't completely disagree with.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's kind of like the. I think your whole website is based on the myth of monogamy.

[B]

I mean, yes, the myth of monogamy, but also I think it's just realizing and recognizing human nature and the human condition and accepting it as it is and accepting us for who we are. We're flawed human beings.

[A]

Okay, explain that theory of the myth of monogamy.

[B]

Well, I mean, in as much as a lot of people would like to believe that we have the ability to stay loyal and that we should be loyal, I think biologically it just flies in the face of convention and that it's just too difficult that men were meant to spread their seeds, so to speak, and that we were meant to propagate the species, and also because we weren't meant. Another reason we may not be meant to be with just one person on an ongoing basis is that hundreds and hundreds of years ago, we barely lived past age 25 or 30. So it was pretty easy to be with somebody your whole life. Now that we're living to be 80, 90, 100 years old, the type of person we are at 25 is not the type of person we are at 45. We change. And it's quite possible that our needs for a mate change as well.

[A]

Here we go.

[C]

Where do I begin? Well, I think first of all, you know, to surprise to a lot of our listeners, I actually think more of men than you do. I mean, I think that it's basic, take responsibility for your actions. If you choose to be married, you made that choice to be monogamous. Now, whether it's human, blah, blah, blah, excuse after excuse about human nature and all this stuff, biological blah. You know, you make choices in your life. If you know, you're a man who really cannot settle down with one woman, then don't commit to one woman. Live your lifestyle the way you know you are. But if you are getting married, that's where it infuriates me that that is a choice that you have made. And if you cannot stay with that choice and if you violate that choice and that trust, that is your fault and your fault alone. Not God's, not biological, not your DNA. That is your choice and your fault.

[A]

Here's, here's the, here's where I disagree with you. Like, I do believe in what he's saying about the myth of monogamy. Like, I think natural instinct is to want to be, at least for a man to be with a lot of partners. I believe that. But I also believe you can control that.

[B]

I mean, what you both say is correct and you can control it. But what ends up happening in many circumstances is that people get into a relationship and there's no question that marriage is a very strong institution and that a lot of people are very convention bound in our society and would like to be married. But you don't know what you don't know getting into it. And you don't know how you're going to feel seven years down the road. And when that time comes and you're leading a life of quiet desperation and you don't want to get divorced for many reasons, then a lot of people do look outside the relationship for fulfillment. And that's just how we are.

[D]

I just don't understand why in a society where, you know, Brit was saying that these affairs are so acceptable. Well, divorce is also pretty acceptable in our country nowadays. And I think that there's not as much stigma on you as a divorced person now as there used to be. Why, you know, why provide this for people that are already married and not to people that are divorced? Because you don't have to stay married. I mean, if you have the seven year itch and you're like, I've got to be with other people, you don't have to stay married. I don't understand why.

[B]

Well, you don't have to stay married. But obviously divorce is not an option for a lot of people. And that could be due. Well, because there's children to consider, there's religious beliefs, there's cost. It's very expensive and acrimonious to divorce. Sometimes people, if somebody just feels that they have something in their system that they gotta get. Get out of their system, and it's not worth leaving the relationship for. Because many people have affairs and go back to their relationship because the grass wasn't greener on the other side, but they had to get it out of their system.

[D]

What I don't understand is how if your children are so important and your religious beliefs are so important that you won't get a divorce, but they're not important enough not to go to your website and find somebody to have an affair with.

[B]

Well, it's not even just our website. I mean, the majority of affairs spawn from the workplace.

[D]

But you're enabling that.

[B]

Well, it's not enabling it because people will cheat where there's an opportunity to do so if they're predisposed to it, if they want to cheat.

[A]

But you're saying everybody is predisposed to it.

[B]

I'm saying everybody could become potentially predisposed to it. And yes, everybody is implicated. If in your life, somehow, some way, the emotions are triggered. If you're not happy, if you're not fulfilled, if you feel that, you know, your relationship should have been more than it is and you want to get more out of life. Like, for example, many women stray because they feel that they, you know, they're not being fulfilled in a relationship, and they always stray with somebody that they deem to be trading up to.

[A]

Jeff, with this, the same argument that you had last week when we talked to that woman that was creating those greeting cards specifically for people that were going outside of their marriage, you said, look, how can you blame the greeting card people? They're just providing a service. Would you use the same rationale for this?

[E]

Yeah, I mean, he's a little more callous about the whole thing and a little more shallow about it. Like, I.

[B]

Probably more upfront as well.

[E]

Yeah. More direct about it, unfortunately. You know, you know, if I were you, I would change my rhetoric a little bit. But he is addressing a need that's out there, and if you really want to break it down, he is providing a safer way for somebody to do something. I mean, if you want to go down to the bare bones and guys just need to spread their seed and have sex and get out There, then.

[B]

You know, and drag your knuckles.

[E]

He's providing a, you know, a safer environment rather than, you know, fighting a prostitute or something like that, or picking up a random, you know, chick at a bar and having some drunken, you know, not events. So, I mean, do I agree with what he's doing? No. Do I think cheating's good? No. Do I fault him for finding a way to make money out of something that's wrong with society? No, not really.

[B]

We made our business model when we researched and found out that as many as 30% of people that sign up for singles dating services were attached. So they were already using the anonymity of the Internet to pursue their objectives. And additionally, if we felt that we were somehow potentially perpetuating infidelity and creating a market, then we probably wouldn't do what we're doing. But we know that we're just servicing an existing marketing that appetite.

[A]

Hold on to your thought there, Melissa. We're gonna be a while changing. No doubt you have heard hundreds of stories like this. So I guess my question to you is, how are you waking up every morning going, you know what? I can feel pretty good about the cash that I'm putting in the bank.

[B]

Well, listen, I mean, I have sympathy for Amber, and I'm sorry to hear what happened with your family, but the reality is your husband didn't even need our website to pursue his objectives. Somehow, some way, he chose to strain. He chose to stray for a reason. And I'm not casting, you know, dispersions on your relationship or yourself, but he did. He did stray, and it's gonna happen in society. And he didn't even use our website.

[C]

Well, first of all, it's not just men that cheat, you know, and secondly, because she brought that up, and it's been brought up a lot, the women use this website, too. But the thing about. And it kind of goes on, what Jeff just said about Darren and the way he. He's explaining all this like, you know, it's one thing if you said, look, there's a lot of people in society doing this, and we're just providing a service. But you started off the conversation justifying it. You started off the conversation saying that. And I guess it's on your website, which I haven't seen, about the myth of monogamy and how it's. You know, especially in men, they have to sow their seeds and stuff, like you are justifying it, and then you turn around and say you're not.

[A]

Hey, Darren, before you answer that, let me just read off of your website here because I feel the same way Melissa does. Like, I think you're justifying, you know, screwing around in your relationship because of the myth of monogamy. And you've got a lot of statistics on your website that prove this. But let me just read this. Statistics suggest that the majority of North American and European adults do not maintain permanently monogamous or closed relationships. In fact, it's estimated that some 50 to 60% of men and 40 to 50% of women will engage in an extramarital affair or romantic tryst at some point. Anthropologists have found that there are fundamental physiological changes that take place during the course of a relationship that contribute to the lack of long term fidelity. Extramarital affairs and open spousal relationships offer an opportunity to re experience the excitement and stimulation associated with dating and courtship.

[D]

We're all attracted to other human beings, but that's what makes us human beings, is that we have the mental capacity to make decisions above and beyond our animal instincts. Give me a break. We are not just animals. I mean, we are at a most basic level, but we have brains, we have decision making power, we know right from wrong. And we can make those decisions with our brains and not just our bodies. Because I mean, I think everybody will agree. Whether you believe in monogamy or not, you've got sexual urges that attract you to people that are other than the person that you've decided to commit your life to. But you also have a head on your shoulders that can help you make those decisions, make the right decisions, not to put yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time or, you know, or on the wrong website.

[C]

Why get married in the first place?

[D]

Right?

[B]

Listen, that may be. And if and when people come to that realization and don't feel that at the moment they couldn't help or control themselves and they stop straying, then I guess we'll go find another business model. But it's not the case and it never has been the case.

[E]

Yeah, you're getting mad at the wrong person.

[B]

I mean, it's almost like suggesting that we should stop working together, that males and females should not be allowed to work together because affairs started the opposite.

[C]

Of what she said.

[A]

What are you saying?

[B]

We shouldn't go out every day looking our best lest we, we accidentally get somebody to.

[A]

That's not what she's saying. She's saying that we're all attracted to other people, but we have the capacity to say absolutely not. It stops here.

[B]

Well then if we, then in that circumstance, let's not let men and women work together because they.

[C]

And that's your. That's what your argument is?

[B]

They might. They might have. That's not our office. Although I wouldn't. I don't know. I guess it's possible, but the reality is that people mistake the intensity of the work project for that of a personal relationship and get caught up. But I'm not making excuses for people. And, you know, they're going to find their own way no matter what. And if people, you know, somehow, some way stop cheating and stop behaving like human beings and the way we were programmed, then I guess it would be, you know, there would be a different outcome. It would be a different world. But it's just not that case.

[A]

Darren, let me ask you this question, okay? Cause your wife's gotta be a little bit freaked out. I mean, you are representing a website that basically says, look, it is instinct for me to screw around on you. So you've already justified in your own relationship that infidelity is a real possibility.

[C]

He just said it was gonna possibly.

[D]

Be a situation he has to deal with.

[A]

So how does your wife feel about this?

[B]

The situation I had to deal with would have been with my child. That changes with respect to Sharon's comment. But, I mean, if my wife cheated on me. Well, I certainly. Was that your question?

[A]

No, I think you cheated on your wife. I think my question is more if.

[B]

I cheated on my wife.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she's got to be a little freaked out. I mean, basically you're saying it's okay to screw around because it's only animal instinct.

[B]

No, I'm not saying it's okay to screw around. I'm just saying that people do screw around. People do cheat on their spouses. And for those people, we want to offer a safe forum to explore those feelings. But if I cheat on my wife, it certainly would have nothing to do with a website. It would have to do with a breakdown in our relationship that I wasn't willing to handle or couldn't handle or moved on after trying to handle. But it certainly wouldn't do just because I suddenly had access to Ashley Madison. Or maybe I've always had access to Ashley Madison and now there's a sale going on at Ashley Madison. It really has to do more with my relationship.

[A]

Hey, Angela.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Good morning.

[A]

You're on with Darren.

[F]

Hey, guys.

[A]

Hi.

[F]

I think this guy's an idiot. I mean, an absolute idiot.

[B]

Idiot.

[F]

He's talking about he doesn't enable people. But that's exactly what his website does. I mean, I'm on here right now, and it's just I've discovered many women in unfulfilled relationships looking for satisfaction. I mean, why don't these people just get divorces instead of going online and finding a safe quote unquote way to cheat?

[E]

Then you need to talk to them, not to him.

[F]

Well, but he's on there offering this. I mean, he's like the drug pusher on the streets who says, ooh, I'm just out here selling crack to people who are going to do it anyway. I mean, that's ridiculous.

[E]

There's a difference. Crack is illegal.

[F]

Well, social cheating. I mean, look at all the cheating causes.

[C]

I mean, he doesn't have to think.

[F]

About what the causes are of this website and of enabling people to go out there and cheat on their spouses. I mean, I work for an AIDS service organization and I see women in my office all the time who their husbands went out and cheated and guess what they brought home. Hiv, syphilis, gonorrhea. I mean, it's ridiculous. He's not enabling these people. Yes, the hell he is. Why doesn't he go on the other side of it and try to come up with a website to help people stay in their marriages? Or hey, how about get a divorce?

[E]

Because there's no money in that, right?

[A]

I mean, that's the honest answer. There's not nearly as much money in that right there.

[B]

A lot of people make money on divorce. There are many divorce lawyers. But to a lot of people, divorce just isn't an option. And people that are going to stray, these people are like ideas whose time has come. They're going to become resourceful. They're going to find ways to do it. They're going to find venues and excuses and they're going to learn how to juggle balls and they're even going to be willing to fund the affair, which is not a cheap proposition. I mean, once somebody, I mean, you've got to consider this. You have situations where people like former President Bill Clinton or even Prince Charles have cheated. And these are men who had everything in the world to lose by cheating and getting caught, yet they still did it. What compelled them. So the average person on the street like us who decides to cheat and doesn't even have as much to risk or lose and yet still does it, there's something there. There's just something compelling them, and they're going to do it no matter what.

[A]

Good morning, Sherry. You're on all the hits. Q100.

[F]

Yes. My question is and it's a very personal question, but has Given ever dealt with betrayal or someone cheating on him or that pain of what you go through?

[B]

Absolutely. No question. I've been cheated on and I have cheated on past relationships and I've been through those emotions. Yes.

[A]

Well, and knowing with the pain that goes through all that, then how can you feel good about facilitating a website like this?

[B]

Well, I'm offering a service for somebody who needs and wants to use it. This is America. You're a hero.

[F]

Bless your heart. That's all I have to say.

[B]

Bless your heart. What about relationships that break up because of gambling or alcoholism? Both are legal.

[C]

What?

[B]

But people abuse it, or people don't do something in moderation, or people don't talk about their problems. Listen, there are a lot of vices, there are a lot of opportunities in society to abuse our freedoms and to abuse our choices, but it happens all the time.

[D]

The gambling websites are not saying, hey.

[C]

Cheat on your wife right here and spend 20 bucks.

[B]

Yeah, if I had a fraction of the budget the casinos and the online casinos do, then I'd be retired.

[D]

They're not asking people to get cause for divorce.

[E]

Well, but it is cause for divorce.

[B]

Yeah. I think they stick at you until they clean you out.

[A]

I'm curious how much it costs to be a member on AshleyMadison.com the minimum would be $55.

[B]

That would buy you 100 credits and you would redeem the credits as you utilize features of the system that allow you to communicate directly. And those features are things like mail messaging and instant messaging, Winks.

[A]

Winks and stuff like that.

[B]

Winks are free.

[A]

And how, how expensive can this get? You said the bottom line is 50 something bucks, right?

[B]

That's the minimum. And once you would go through your credits, it would be up to you to reload. So it depends on how much time you spend on there, how many people that you communicate with, how often you know whether you leave and come back again. The average sale is about $77. And the average lifetime revenue per paying subscriber is 1 47.

[A]

And the feedback that you're getting because you have a section on here where you can actually read some of the emails that came in to you. I'm guessing you're kind of selectively posting the ones that are all positive, but you must be getting some negatives also.

[B]

I mean, it's not a bulletin board. It's not an open bulletin board for people to post messages to. It's comments from our users. We do get our share of hate Mail, no question. But admittedly, we do get much more mail offering praise and kudos than we do condemning our actions or condemning what we do. Because I think a lot of people truly understand that if somebody's going to cheat, they're going to do it anyway. And that would be comparable to even taking the motel operator to task, because the couple checked in there every single week to have their afternoon.

[A]

It's not the same thing. It's totally not the same thing.

[D]

You know what I feel like? What's that movie with Al Pacino where he's really the devil? Devil's advocate. Devil's advocate. That's what I feel like. Darren's gonna morph into the end of this conversation, and your eyes are gonna have, like, fire in the middle of him.

[C]

It's like.

[D]

It's like he looks really good and slick in that suit, but underneath it, I just. I just don't know how you sleep at night, man. I don't know how you do it. I know you're trying to make money, and I know you got a niche thing going on, but I don't know how you sleep at night.

[C]

I guess I'm frustrated because we know.

[B]

We truly know these people would do it. Not only would they do it anyway, but many of the people that come to our website are people who have cheated in the past.

[A]

I think we've pretty much.

[B]

They're already predisposed.

[A]

We're gonna talk about the same things over and over and over again. How many members do you have so far?

[B]

I think we're around 535,000.

[A]

535,000 members. It has never been more accepted to have an adulterous relationship than it is right now.

[E]

It's a new cool thing to do. It's like a little baby chihuahua in your purse.

[A]

All right, Darren, we'll see you. Thank you very much for handling all those. Those calls. With a pleasure. Thank you.

[B]

Appreciate it for having me on.

[A]

You're on the Birch Show.