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- [00:09]
A
Welcome to the Big Story, a roundtable featuring members of the Ad Exchanger editorial team. Every week we bring you an in depth discussion of key developments in digital marketing and media.
- [00:24]
B
What happens when a customer obsessed company has customers boycott its product? That's exactly what happened to Amazon earlier this year when a community of organized sellers who dubbed themselves the Million Dollar Sellers Club or mds, boycotted Amazon over a series of changes that left them feeling like they were in a weakened position. Now our senior editor, James Hersher found himself in a room full of these sellers this week. They have a long list of complaints against Amazon and how it's running its seller platform. For anyone who's been around the block in ad tech or worked with Google and Meta, a lot of these complaints will feel very familiar. James is going to talk through why these sellers are so upset, what Amazon's reaction has been and what this says about the moment we are in in retail media. I'm Sarah Sluice, Editorial director of Ad Exchanger, and with me here is our senior editor James Hersher, who wrote the story they and Allison Schiff, our editor in chief who edited it.
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A
Greetings.
- [01:26]
B
And before we get started, let's talk about Programmatic IO in New York City. This conference is the established place to talk about disruption. We've seen it before, ad tech upending the media ecosystem. And this year you can attend to surf the wave of new tech and not get sucked under the surge. As always, our listeners can use the code POD10 to shave an extra 10% off your ticket price. So lock in your plans for September 28th and 29th and all of us here on this podcast, we'll see you there. Come say hi. So James, I'm kind of curious like how you got in the room and like what the vibe was like. When I think about this like cohort of like kind of maybe not like angry, but just like passionately organized against a platform. It just feels like it would be a really interesting thing to be included in. So tell us about that.
- [02:19]
C
Yeah, it was, it was an interesting room too because sort of by chance I ended up at like a more sort of, I guess private sellers event because you know, this was on Wednesday last week and I just couldn't make it to Thursday just for sort of family care reasons. And so I ended up at this event which they sort of weren't inviting media to it seems. So it was, it was like a very intimate room. You know the, this group, million dollar sellers have been around a long time. They didn't just sort of pop up in response to sort of recent frustrations. You know, it's, in fact it's like people who have been, you know, selling on Amazon specifically for 10, 15, 20, 25 years. Everyone in this group. And yeah, there's James.
- [03:07]
B
I'm going to interrupt. You have to like share a screenshot of like million dollar sales to get included. Like, is it your bona fides?
- [03:15]
C
I think there, there def. I mean everyone definitely has their like screenshots ready to go. There were a lot of screenshots flying around. A lot of them too were like slacks and emails, like communications with Amazon. But there's definitely, there definitely is some like, hey, you know, check out my Shopify. Look at these sales. There's, you know, they're, they're, they're definitely like, oh, there's like, you know, there's seven, nine digit sellers in this room. There's like a very strong sense of like where everyone is. Yeah.
- [03:46]
A
By the way though, when you, when you said check out my Shopify, I'm like, that would be a pickup line in this community.
- [03:52]
C
It would be if it wasn't all dudes in the room, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, so it is. And I, I ended up here because I covered this boycott they staged a few months ago which really like, which got my attention because it's like, oh wow. Like a boycott of one of these, you know, big ad platforms. You just don't hear about it. It did used to happen. There are some like big precedents for it and it's just like, you know, I feel like nowadays it almost seems like crazy that that would, that someone would organize that. And I was curious that it is Amazon sellers. It's this very like insular community. You know, they love Amazon, they do nothing else. So, so yeah, checked out. And interestingly at first the, the ad platform is really just part of this because it's where they could do something like they're not going to pull their products off Amazon. They're not. But they, you know, okay, so fine, we're going to, there's enough like sellers and big advertisers there that like, okay, someone at Amazon felt that and more importantly is like the headlines like they're fully aware that, you know, they're like a gadfly but like a particularly like poisonous thing thing for Amazon, like does not want these headlines about sellers. Like their tagline is SOS with this sort of Save our sellers. Yeah. This whole sort of campaign of I think just sort of being swallowed under by all these changes.
- [05:20]
A
So let I get one of those hats, but I have one.
- [05:24]
B
So let's get into the, the complaints. Why don't you give us just the list of what people were upset that about and kind of, you know, if that also was part of the boycott, like if it's changed because there were some things that changed after the boycott and then there's some complaints that continue.
- [05:42]
C
So the, the main thing that precipitated the boycott in April was a change that Amazon is making to get rid of credit cards. An advertiser seller can't just like hook up a credit card. They now have to have like a banking relationship which is something that Google and Metta also did in the past year and is really like sort of a hard one. Amazon's going to hold the line. They did kick that deadline from April to August 1, but it is not going to be reversed. And there's like a really good rationale. Like all bad actors take it like use the credit card. Use credit cards to pay essentially.
- [06:23]
B
And there are, so there are some of these, you know, nine figure sellers are essentially charging their entire ad spend on a credit card and then, I
- [06:31]
C
don't know, like killer loyalty, flying out
- [06:34]
B
a whole plane of business class people around the world or something like that.
- [06:38]
C
The thing is, it's interesting in like why this is why this happens with Amazon sellers. Like why this response from Amazon sellers as opposed to, you know, you don't hear Google or Meta folks make us think about having to do this exact same thing is partially just that like these are, these are not people from the advertising world like Meta and Google. Those advertisers are like advertisers and you know, like no one ever was putting their TV commercials or radio on like a credit card. So big brands. This was an irrelevant change and everyone sort of knew within Meta that this was like a loophole that was going to get changed at some point. But these like Amazon sellers have never known anything else like it. I don't think it ever like occurred to them that this could go away. It had been, they baked it into their business as sort of like a few points of margin and they use these like bone, you know, this like loyalty stuff for business purposes. And you know, like it just, they just didn't know a world without it. And so it was like, wait, this is going away like and they don't, you know, they don't like I'm not on Meta, I'm not on Google, like I'm an Amazon seller. And like this, like, like this has always been Here for me. And now it's going away. So that is partially why there is this particular outrage in this community.
- [07:54]
A
Well, someone referred to it as the what? The what breaks the camel's back. The straw. I almost said hair.
- [07:59]
C
Like, I'm mixing idiots and feather I got. You know, people were really like. Which I think is. Both are valid.
- [08:05]
B
So the credit card piece I think maybe is a little bit. Yeah. For me as an ad person, I'm like, of course that's going to go away. And it sounds like Amazon delayed it, but it's holding the line. But then there's other pieces, like the fact that a lot of their spend is being funneled to the Amazon ad network that I'm like, this reminds me of the Facebook audience network and how agencies were always up in arms about how it worked to opt in or opt out from the audience network. Same deal here where people are being automatically opt into the network. They don't want it just like your Google PMAX coverage. They're being opted into the AI ads and they don't want to be. There's like four formats that they have trouble opting out of. And like I literally was reading your article and it was like deja vu from the Facebook stories. Deja vu from Google PMAX woes.
- [08:55]
C
Like, it is, it is exactly the same. They are, you know, they are complaining about the exact same thing. Those are more recent, interestingly. Like, you know, at first, like we said, the advertising was just sort of a lever they had in negotiations and to make some noise. But it was about the credit card change. It was about an Amazon change called like DD+7, which is essentially that Amazon has stopped, has started paying sellers only a week after a purchase, which essentially they're kind of like, they're, they're making the cost of returns and they're giving themselves Amazon more time to like determine returns and fraud or like, you know, like anything like that before paying. And there's already this like very tough payment gap because their sellers are, they're paying for ads up front and then there's a long delay before they're actually getting paid out for the purchases that they've driven. So. So yeah, there's just like this tough squeeze there. Fuel surcharges like fulfillment and warehousing costs have gone up. Like these changes were made earlier this year. They were described as temporary. They are not going to be temporary. They are only going to get worse. So there's, that's what they, I think they mean by like the credit card being, you Know, the straw that broke the camel's back. Since then there has been all these ad platform concerns have popped up and like a particular group within MDS has really like centralized on that because especially like brand resellers, like there's our whole class of Amazon sellers who they, they're like the authorized resellers of brands, you know, or of like other products or something like that. And for them, like the credit card thing maybe didn't matter. Like these are brands that are more like, we are already like use the bank for this. Like, what do you mean? Credit card. So that didn't really matter to them. But all these ad platform stuff. And you're right, it's exactly like Performance Max. This is Amazon's product called Performance Plus. And they, you know, they force you into off platform, like into the web, the sort of seismic audience extension reach stuff people hate. They force you into chat bots. They use AI to create ad units to fill somewhere else that you didn't like, hey, I didn't give you the assets to build this piece of creative. Well, they did it and you didn't realize that you'd signed up for that. And it is like, you know, on the same, on the one hand, like it's totally the same as Meta and Google. Like there's nothing that Amazon is doing that sort of is like more egregious or anything. But again, it is just like I've always wondered like, what would it take for like Meta or Google advertisers to like be like to stand up for themselves almost?
- [11:43]
A
Well, I mean, it's different though because Amazon sellers are dependent on Amazon in a way that advertisers aren't dependent on Google and Meta, even though, you know, they are quite dependent on those platforms because Amazon is their distribution platform. And like we were just saying, they aren't advertisers first, they're sellers first. And so boycotting Amazon is really existential for them. I don't know how much it achieved, but it's, it's different. I mean, there's a nuance there that's worth pointing out.
- [12:15]
C
Yeah, totally. I think to a degree it is sort of, you know, we have kind of seen this story before with Meta. Like there were brands that were Facebook Instagram brands and that was where like aside from maybe having like Google search and like, you know, they had a website or whatever, but they were essentially Facebook and Instagram and those brands that made it like have. Now they're not just Facebook and Instagram. Like they by necessity have become Store brands and like other channel brand or
- [12:45]
A
Amazon brand, Amazon brands, they become Amazon brands.
- [12:48]
C
So are not a lot of like Amazon brands, which there used to be like Amazon brands, these brands that if they're going to make it, they have to find somewhere else. So that definitely is something that's happening in this room. Like this is a room full of people who have forever done nothing but Amazon and are now sort of begrudgingly mucking around with TikTok. Trying other marketplace like Walmart or like Target Roundel have thrown third party seller marketplaces now, you know, they're trying to drive to their site like the, you know, the D2C model where once upon a time they were just like drive to Amazon. So they're trying other things. And I did hear a lot of like frustration. Like I'd rather, I'd rather make like $75 million anywhere else than $100 million on Amazon. Like I hate Amazon so much. Like I, you know, I heard sort of variations of that from a lot of people and you know, like this boycott, they're just trying to find ways to spin, stick it to it. Like, feel how frustrated I am when Amazon frankly doesn't care.
- [13:49]
B
Really.
- [13:49]
A
My cousin is an Amazon reseller and he, he hates Amazon so much. I mean he's not. But when I go over there for lunch, like the vitriol, I mean the, the man is consumed with hatred.
- [14:07]
B
I feel like he needs to change jobs.
- [14:09]
C
Like, well, that is the thing. I mean there's like, I think these people have also like loved it for so long. Like they don't. It's not that they hate the like grind or the hustle or the old ways. Like the Amazon thing of like, you know, always staying one step ahead and test and all that. Like, I think they love that. But like, and also part of why they're not being such like, oh, here's like 1, 2, 3 demands that are very like clean and concise and everyone's on the same page about like it felt like everyone's like problems boiled down to like, we're not having fun anymore. Like, it was just like this group of sellers who like over and over again were like, I used to love this job. Like, now it's just like this job sucks. Like I'm not having fun. Which is like kind of like, all right.
- [14:54]
B
Like that's the kind of vibe shift I feel like you pick up when you're at like an in person event or you know, maybe in the forums, the comments as well. So I'm curious, you Know I opened with Amazon being this customer obsessed company. Certainly in my interactions with the company like they, they definitely think of people like Amazon sellers or you know, the advertisers using their DSP as their customers and want to do right by them. And I think even you know, internally when people are making decisions like you're, if you, you're like is this a customer obsessed decision? Like that feels like very much part of the decision making. So it's very at odds for them to have these customers. So
- [15:39]
C
when you're Amazon, everybody in the world is a customer in every like corner of their life. So by which I mean like, yeah, like for some people within Amazon, these sellers are their customers. And there are some people in the advertising business who like their commissions were hit because they're part of this ad world and they deal, their business is like sellers, this, this like corner of the world. But like okay, Amazon customers like, like secret, like Amazon customers hate third party sellers. Like there's this product called Knockoffs that like people are using to just kind of like screen out the third party seller like sellers as opposed to like brands. And a lot of the like, yeah, like the bad, the things that Amazon has been trying to do, getting rid of like duplicates, getting rid of you know, sort of shady resellers perhaps of like the same products and they've been making other changes too that like hurt sellers. Like they don't when a seller, if a seller is has like Kleenex or something like they're selling something like that and Kleenex has that same SKU that used to be considered by Amazon as the same, the same Asin which in Amazon language means askew. Like one product, one row on a shelf in a store. And now they don't like Amazon considers if it's by a third party seller that isn't the authorized official reseller of that product. It is a different kind of an asin and we just consider it lower class. Like you people returning that, that's not the same as you returning the same product.
- [17:15]
B
So that's it. Just to maybe pause on that to make sure I understand. Like because me as a customer I definitely want be direct Kleenex. I don't want, I don't know the Kleenex Amazon diverted. And then you also have, so you've got the cus, the end customer, you've got Kleenex the brand and then you've got third party sellers the customer. So you're saying that these, some of these decisions are good for the first two sets of customers. But third party sellers, including ones that are, are MDs people at third party sellers? Some of them.
- [17:49]
C
Well yeah, I just mean that all these people are customers of Amazon and Amazon doing things about like shoppers, like everyday general people browsing who like shop on Amazon might like, oh, like that shopper might be like, oh, I like this change that. And then on the other side of the equations are sellers who are like, oh, this change is terrible for us. So, so yeah, there is this just like complication of being like, oh, like isn't Amazon supposed to be like customer obsessed? Shouldn't they be like listening to these people? It's like, well they've got other customers like this.
- [18:21]
B
They're obsessed with another customer for that background.
- [18:25]
C
One of the things that Amazon shared was that more sellers have, are like achieving a million dollars per year than there are. Which is sort of in response to like, okay, there are, there is an overall seller decline, but the overall seller business is still going up and more sellers are sort of above a certain like plateau of scale. And sort of what that means is like Amazon is winnowing out a lot of like sellers and resellers and it's probably showing preference to like authorized brand sellers or like the actual brands that are sellers on the platform or you know, an Amazon like a name brand. So, so yeah, there are, there's a lot of.
- [19:05]
B
So for them to juggle some, some of the changes that are upsetting them. Like you mentioned the credit cards are used by bad actors or like they're prioritizing the brand sellers. Like that also makes a better experience and then people are just feeling the ripple effects of that. I'm not sure in my mind how things like forcing people to use the AI ads or like buy off network falls into that. So is there another class of things that people are upset about? It kind of feels like maybe they're being pushed into change instead of being kind of gently, gently tugged along the road.
- [19:43]
C
They're not being persuaded. Yeah, there definitely is. Like this is a stick, not a carrot kind of a situation for sure.
- [19:52]
A
Well, you default someone into something, they don't have a choice and they have to be aware it's happening. And not everyone is focused on the things that we're focused on all the time. Like advertising is, I don't know, seventh on their priority list.
- [20:09]
C
Yeah.
- [20:09]
A
Even though they don't like these things.
- [20:11]
C
I think from Amazon's point of view, like maybe like especially sort of like where the ad stuff goes, gets involved, like, oh, you start to Be like, okay, these concerns are about like performance plus and you know, the old like seismic business getting incorporated in here. Sellers have always like, hated this stuff. They hate the like off platform site extension. And I think it is like from Amazon, they're like, hey, like, what's, what's the big deal? Like, if anything we're, we give you more tools than like Performance Max does or Advantage Shopping, which is like Meta's version. Like, we try. Like, they're more transparent, I think, than a lot of those other black boxes. They're with, with creative and a lot of the things they do, like the Amazon is more transparent but still like these sellers, like, I've always won. Like I said, like, what would it take for Meta sellers to stand up for themselves? Because like, these platforms are like, they shouldn't do this. They just, they do, they just force, they just untoggle things. They, they just make decisions. Like, they make decisions. You know, it's just sort of unthinkable. Like 10 years ago, the type of like, oh, we're just gonna default this to the platform.
- [21:18]
A
Like, it's shenanigans. Sellers hate it. My mom is an ebay seller and it drives her absolutely bananas when there are platform changes and some of the off platform stuff. She has no interest in it. And I can't remember the specifics because it seems to happen all the time. And if I'm being honest, I'm sorry, mom. I tune it out sometimes because it's just constant. But. But yeah, I mean, she's really upset every time there's something on by default that she didn't want on by default. It's super frustrating.
- [21:48]
C
I remember like an E Commerce operators conference I went to earlier this year, which was all sort of Amazon types and D2C and they're going through all the Amazon, like Empire, including like Audible and Kindle. And you know, they're going through Twitch and all this stuff. Like every option. And then last slide they're like, and like seismic DSP and they literally just barf emoji and they're like block moving on. Like, didn't even get it. I was like, okay. Like, yeah. I was like, so, yeah, so like, they hate that. And I was like, you know, Amazon, like within their system you have ways to pause off site ads, you know, limit off site ads, pause sponsored prompts, which is, you know, advertisers being forced into like chat bots. You know, another example of like an advertiser being like, I didn't ask you to do that. Like how I'M asking you to stop doing that. And the language is important. Like, you don't, you can't turn it off. You can only pause it. Like, you can't turn it off. You can limit it. Like they're, you know, these words are important. Like, this is what the choices are and it clearly is. And this is where it's going. Like this, you know, it's, it's going to be one click. Amazon's platform is going to be doing this in the back end.
- [22:57]
A
Can I ask, did the boycott do anything? Like, what did, what did they achieve with their boy.
- [23:02]
C
They got a delay in the credit card policy, which I get, you know, every. Whatever, you know, however many loyalty points they could have smushed in. They. They do get credits for whatever that they get, like, you know, $5,000 in ad credits after transitioning. But really, no, they've gotten commitments to like, improve communication. And I think one of the things that like MDS wanted was a kind of more like centralized communication hub. Like a real like, proper, like framework with like, okay, like we are going to communicate in a way that like sort of, I don't know, like almost think of like Google and privacy sandbox when there was like a regulator who was like, communicate like everything proactively versus like Apple that just doesn't, you know, loves to just actually likes to do things as a surprise at their big like semiannual events.
- [23:58]
A
One more thing.
- [23:59]
C
Yeah, they're just like, here's, you know, this industry just gets crushed. Yay. Like, hooray, surprise.
- [24:04]
B
Sorry.
- [24:05]
C
Tile Want, like, yeah, so they just don't want things like this to like. I think they're anticipating more ad platform policy changes, like important changes. And I think they just want more like proactive notice or something. Yeah, it feels like they didn't get much.
- [24:23]
A
No, but that, that is actually not nothing to at least know what's happening as opposed to waking up one day and being like, oh, this is on. That's toggled. This policy was implemented. And I didn't know at least if, you know, you can prepare yourself like for bad news.
- [24:39]
C
Yeah. And they are, you know, they're just a person like throwing themselves in the way of an avalanche. Like, you know, they're trying to fight the rising tide here and it's just city hall. Yeah, like, there's no, like, this is what Amazon's doing. Amazon, like, they delayed one for three months. They probably regretted that. They feel like they probably should have just like held the line and ignored them. Like a humpback Whale and like a little fish, which is sort of like what does it like there's no real damage that this organization can do other than bringing headlines or if Amazon makes some kind of misstep, punishes them or something like that. Something that like can get a headline that gets like a regulator all fired up.
- [25:21]
B
Okay, you're bringing up regulators. I don't know if we should go there just yet. But to your point around, like it doesn't do anything when I go to the MDS website, like they're definitely talking now like you described as like an Amazon seller community, but they're like TikTok shop, like D2C brands, omnichannel. Like other places. Like there's Walmart, there's Target, there's a lot of different places where you can sell things now. Like, do you think that it's possible that people might choose alt platforms? Like, especially when you hear things like TikTok shop has just really strongly incentivized adoption of its platform, whether that's long term or not. But that feels like the kind of thing that could be really impactful to some of these brands if they're maybe deciding to expand to another platform.
- [26:14]
C
They definitely are trying to all of those other channels. Like they're going to try and like take this wherever they can sort of transplant their wisdom and assets they have as Amazon sellers to somewhere else. So that's what I mean by like places that have third party seller marketplaces. Like it's not a, you know, like Roundel has a sort of nascent one. Walmart. There's been a big jump in third party sellers in Walmart. Like that's definitely part of this like offloading. They're trying to. But I, you know, there, there really is just one Amazon. Like I don't, I don't think it's like an easy task to just, I mean I think MDS thinks of itself sort of as like a trade org almost and is going to try to like create assets for its sellers to do that and diversify a bit. But these are, I mean these are Amazon sellers for sure. And it feels like that's going to be like, you know, 90 to 100% of their business for a while.
- [27:14]
B
Okay, that, that's helpful to know. And then I want to talk about one more thing before we talk about antitrust, which is just that those temporary fuel surcharges, like I fill up my gas, right? It's a lot, it's a lot more. Amazon's passing that on to the sellers and it Seems like the sellers are upset with Amazon about that versus like the macroeconomic conditions that are perhaps driving that. I'm sure there's nuance and how high or low Amazon could apply that type of surcharge. But you know, just. Yeah, playing the devil's advocate here, like taking the side of Amazon that's like, hey, like our fuel costs went up like 20%. Like we're making you, you know, a 3% surcharge or, or maybe it's higher than what it is. Just throwing that out there. What's, what are people thinking about that?
- [28:04]
A
They'd want them to absorb it, I assume because they're a trillion dollar corporation. But yeah. What are, what are people saying?
- [28:10]
C
I mean, I'm sure Amazon has absorbed some and they're passing along some. Like Amazon, I think would make the point and probably fairly that it's cheaper to do sort of like fulfillment with Amazon than fulfillment with whoever, you know, alternative, which is why they sort of have this whole business. But yeah, like there's nothing, you know, this isn't like a group that. Now I think that's also like part of why this whole thing of them trying to become like an advocacy organization and something like a trade organization that sort of like speaks for sellers and represents this sort of interests. Like, you know, they're big oil and big energy. Like, yeah, they wade into the macro of politics and try and like reshape things in an image that they like. And these are people who don't have any power. Like the, you know, they just get batted around by the tariff situation and like if they end up with refunds from Amazon, they're like happy but like they don't, you know, these are all just like things that happen to them and they're blown in the wind. And yeah, like, I think, I do think that there is, that there is like part of this story is that sellers are so frightened. There is great economic power. If you did say like we speak for Sellers or something like that, but they don't. There is no organization that does that truly in like a centralized way.
- [29:36]
B
Yeah.
- [29:36]
A
So there's fear.
- [29:37]
C
Yeah, so. And you really do, you know, that was the other thing about this room full of people too. Like they're, you know, they're proud of themselves but they don't want to like push. Like not, you know, partially because Amazon is their entire business. But they, you know, they fear retribution and like they don't wanna, they already I think, feel like they've, they came close to the sun. Like they feel lucky that they have not been destroyed. Like no one in the room's business has been targeted. Like, they don't feel so it's, you know, they're like, yeah, no, we're gonna like, you know, we're taking our chips and going home.
- [30:10]
A
There was a point that that kitchenware seller made that you used to end your story. I thought it was really interesting because it's not exactly leverage, but it's, it's good advice because it's about diversification. So like sellers and ad buyers should maybe pull some of their spend from the big platforms for like a day or two a week and then see if anything bad actually happens. It's not like a boycott, it's just trying to see what happens. And that would give them the proof they need that maybe not all of the money that they're pouring into platforms is truly incremental. I think there's something to that.
- [30:53]
C
Yeah, it was funny. And I think it also is this like, you know, it's funny coming from this like outsider looking in perspective. Like in the ad world we're all like, it's all about roas. You know, everything is focused on advertising. My average, oh, this advertising was great. How'd the advertising do? And you know, this seller perspective is like, oh, like we boycotted for 36 hours and it's kind of like, like maybe everyone should just be turning off ads like a couple times a week. It doesn't mean any like, you know, platforms are all like, oh, reporting like, oh, blah, blah, blah, you know, so much, we need so much roi. It's like you know, part of like if you did like a big incrementality or a B test, you could kind of frame it as like a boy. Oh, like we're boycott, boycotting like a huge market right now. But it's really, you're just like, it's
- [31:38]
A
really just an incrementality test.
- [31:39]
C
You're just doing like a channel test or something like that.
- [31:42]
B
I always feel that way about sponsored listings, right. Like sometimes I on, on Google and on Amazon, some pencil just go down a little further to the organic listing.
- [31:53]
C
Just as a reflection the sites to the web, like the off site extension reach stuff because it's just sponsored listings hitting people like on like some banner ad on a web page. And you know, these sellers feel like that's nothing. Like if someone saw that ad and then bought later, we were going to get that sale anyways is how they all feel. So yeah.
- [32:15]
B
So to sum things up, we've got this very powerful group I'm going to say of seven to nine digit sellers who are million dollar sellers. I just really love the name. It feels very like, I don't know, Shark tanky, hustle, Hustle culture. They boycotted Amazon. They got some of their demands somewhat addressed. They've got some sympathetic folks inside of Amazon. But also a lot of these changes that continue to happen are kind of feeling very demoralizing to them. It's cutting into their margins. And these are kind of, these folks that aren't necessarily ad specialists, like they're just, they're sellers overall. So a lot of these ad changes are kind of, you know, a little bit more alarming and confusing to them. Whereas we're like, oh that's just the meta audience network story or the PMAX story. But they're kind of being hit with that for the first time. Anything else to add, James?
- [33:17]
C
Yeah, I mean I would and I would love to see advertisers like across the board at all these platforms, you know, start to, you know, if there was something that was like do you feel strongly about like you know, five, 10 years about, you would never have allowed some platform to have just created this creative or something. And, and now it's like why, you know, why do you just fold on that now? Because just it's just like you've like signed on for like this AI to do that or if, you know, if the back when you used to have like an account service person, if they were serving ads to some channel and you were like stop putting my ads. I don't want to do Gmail. Stop putting my ads there. They had like, they had to. And there's no like and now you have performance max and there's no toggle for you to do that. And like advertisers can actually stand up for themselves and say like no, like stop. I, you know, like it would be, it would be nice to see
- [34:07]
A
say
- [34:07]
B
something a meta or Google version of Million dollar Sellers. Or is there kind of like this unique like middle class in Amazon if you will, that's able to, to rise up. Whereas I feel like a lot of Google and meta sellers are so small that they can't necessarily mobilize or have enough time to mobilize versus this. Interesting.
- [34:29]
C
Boycotts were of like huge like brand safety, you know, horrific violations or just that, you know, stuff like that. So it wasn't exactly the same. It was like it was big brands. Yeah, they weren't, it wasn't the frustration with like ad platform sort of, you know, minutiae that really matters to, like, advertisers and agencies and consultants or whatever, like, combating hate.
- [34:50]
A
It was that kind of stuff.
- [34:52]
C
Yeah, Right.
- [34:52]
A
Very different vibes.
- [34:54]
C
But, but still, like, I, you know, I would love to see these advertisers and agencies just be like, no, like, we just point blank refuse to accept it. And yeah, you know, call it a boycott, call it a test, whatever you want, but let us know about it.
- [35:10]
B
The interest of the customers and users of the platforms being served more, whether it's through collective. Collective action and uniting. Thank you, James, for your reporting. And I'm glad you got to sit in, in that room where it happened.