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- [00:09]
A
Welcome to the Big Story, a roundtable featuring members of the Ad Exchanger editorial team. Every week we bring you an in depth discussion of key developments in digital marketing and media. This episode is brought to you by Zada. Zeta's AI platform unifies paid, owned and earned media into one powerful growth engine, optimizing performance in real time and driving measurable outcomes with confidence. Don't Hope for higher ROI. Expect it with Zeta. Learn more at zetaglobal.com ADExchanger. 2026 is the year CTV fill in the blank on today's podcast we are going to leave with that blank filled in and others. Our reporters Alyssa Boyle and Victoria McNally were on the ground last week at our Convergent TV World event where they got to talk to buyers, programmers, tech companies, investment analysts and they've come away with a strong read on where the market is headed. So on today's podcast we are going to talk through where the TV market is going when it comes to live sports, what all the programmer changes, including Paramount buying, Warner Bros. Discovery mean for advertisers buying ads on the streaming market, the rise of performance tv, the technology that's driving the shift a lot more. I'm Sarah Sluice, Editorial Director for Ad Exchanger and you can mark Your calendars for May 18th to 20th in Las Vegas at the park MGM where you can get a boost on how to make smarter decisions, be more effective and improve performance using AI in marketing. And you can use the code POD10 as a thank you to our listeners and you can get 10% off sign up through the link on our website. So let's talk about performance tv, which I think has been a topic I think that we at Ad Exchanger have been really interested to hear talked about more. I think it's this idea of using TV less as a reach and frequency vehicle and more to actually drive sales immediately instead of kind of doing that brand building as the first step. So how did you hear people talking about performance TV at the conference?
- [02:22]
B
So I would say it's kind of a theme throughout and there was also one panel dedicated to that. We had Netflix and Roku and the VAB on the stage talking about this. But I think my main takeaway if anything would be that streaming companies don't want to be pigeonholed into being a branding vehicle, quote unquote, they'd rather. And also it's more about just not even just the outcomes, it's more about we cover the full funnel from, you know, impressions all the way to sales. Because attribution has always been so historically tricky in ctv. And that's kind of why, you know, marketers and streamers are trying to find more ways to connect the dots to prove that streaming actually leads to results. So all that to say that's kind of my definition of performance tv, I suppose, but that's kind of my takeaway from what the industry is making of that right now.
- [03:13]
C
Yeah, there is a lot of back and forth across different panels about whether or not performance TV is actually worth using as terminology in the first place. Somebody during David Nuremberg's panel, he had a really interesting panel just to set the scene where he talked about how much the CTV industry still relies on pixels for measurement as a holdover from open web days and how that doesn't really work, especially given to your point, Alyssa, the issues and challenges that come with CTV measurement. And so somebody asked him during the Q and A, is performance TV bs? And he was like, well, yeah, kind of. Because his argument especially was like, the behavior hasn't actually changed where TV is concerned. Like, people still are in this mindset where they're watching tv, they see an ad, they act on the ad later. And I think a lot of trying to make performance TV happen is sort of trying to adapt not just stuff from open web, but stuff from social in terms of how people click on ads or engage with ads in the moment in a way that makes sense when it's on your device, but not when it's back there and you're watching it on tv. The behavior hasn't quite changed. Interactive ads aren't really solving the problem. It's useful, but it's not, you know, it's not the same as like a true conversion that happens somewhere other than the tv. And yeah, so that's, you know, you sort of open, Sarah, with like, this is the year CTV is blank. I would say this is the year CTV kind of takes over the full funnel. That's a term we heard a lot as a way to sort of bridge the gap between performance TV and the more traditional brand awareness stuff. It's, it's the full funnel, which isn't new, but like, we heard it a lot.
- [05:04]
B
I'll even chime in here to say my response to, you know, this is the year ctv, I guess, embodies a middle ground in a way. So rather than being a full reach vehicle or some sort of performance channel. Exactly. Like search and social, it's going to exist somewhere in the middle where it does drive results, but those results take time and it's A little bit ambiguous and to track just because of the nature of attribution and everything that we just talked about. So what I think is examples of this would be maybe you scan a QR code or take some other sort of action and then later on after your show, maybe the next day you maybe get a push notification on your phone later that gives you more details or reminds you maybe you were interested in something. Some streamers, like Disney included, have done some really cool things around creating products that take advantage of the opportunity that exists in that gray area or middle ground.
- [06:00]
A
I like that there was some sense of disagreement or maybe a little bit of conflict around this term performance tv. I feel similarly where I'm interested that the TV industry is trying it out as kind of this strategy and approach to focus on performance. I wonder if it will end up serving their best interest because I think TV has always been a performance medium for brands that are big enough in order to kind of have the MMM models that show that, you know, it's kind of like the old joke or something that like the Taco Bell franchisees or whatever fast food franchisees would, you know, ask on the call, like, how many GRPs did you buy? Like, because they knew that like if there were more ads running, like more people were going to walk into their fast food restaurant because they were like, ooh, like I'm in the mood for a taco or a burger or whatever. So there's always been a very clear connection. And I think that as we've moved to more digital conversions, maybe there's been other platforms like Meta that Google that are better at taking credit for the sales that happen. We've had people at previous conferences talk about how when you run TV ads, you see performance improve. For Meta and Google and other places, is TV going to be trying to say, oh, we can go head to head on a CPA with Meta, which they will never be able to do that, or is it possible to show not only did we get this many people to buy something based on seeing this ad, we also 40 people saw a Facebook ad after that and then they bought like after being reminded or whatever. So I think that it could potentially benefit smaller brands that want to enter TV and like a more de risked way. Like they feel super comfortable seeing Facebook, you know, drove this amount of sales, therefore they'll increase their budget and maybe they don't feel as confident in the measurement framework for tv. So I think it's interesting, I think it's good they're trying it. But if they Ever are trying to compete head to head with a social platform or a search platform, it's going to be higher. Hopefully they know that. I think they would know that.
- [08:20]
C
David Nuremberg also brought up something interesting. When I asked him about QR codes and interactive elements and stuff like that, he kind of said on a personal level that he didn't really like all of that because it just felt like a lot. And I've been thinking about that a lot lately, sort of in relation to the way that social now feels very overwhelming a lot of the time, you know, like, because there's, there's a lot of ads, there's a lot of inputs, there's a lot of sensory overload and it's like the adult equivalent of cocomelon, right, where it's like it just, it, it's mentally draining and it's like it's a lot all at once in a way that you don't really, you can't act on anything, let alone anything that's happening in the moment. Whereas I feel like. And he also brought up, he was saying something like, oh, I prefer URLs and phone numbers and stuff like that. And I had the thought in the moment and nobody laughed when I made the reference, but I was like, oh, yeah, because you can't sing a QR code. Like you could sing a jingle into a phone number. You can't be like,
- [09:26]
A
God, what is it?
- [09:27]
C
Empire?
- [09:27]
A
Bring the jingles back.
- [09:28]
C
Yeah, 800-588-200, Empire. I've never ever made that like called that number ever in my life. I still know it by heart. Like stuff like that. You can't do that with a QR code. And yet technically it is trackable, but it's not sticky. And it doesn't actually. It encourages an action, but it encourages an action in the same way that scrolling encourages an action where you're not really, it's not really sticking. Like you can't make art out of a QR code.
- [10:01]
A
Right.
- [10:01]
B
So it's not as meaningful.
- [10:03]
C
Exactly. And I think that sort of.
- [10:05]
A
And I feel like that's what you, you hear marketers say that for years whenever you talk about like programmatic and they kind of hedge a little bit. And I think that a lot of that soft, fuzzy brand building jingle, jingle making stuff is the part that's a little bit higher sometimes or harder. Excuse me, to sell. Tell people on the performance of.
- [10:26]
B
Yeah, actually not to get off track, but this came up a lot in a. There was a college course I took about like linguistics and Advertising. And it's so interesting because like in Japan, like years and years ago, like memorabilia and jingles was such an integral part of advertising. Whereas like Korea or here it was more of like factual and trust based to build like consumer. What's the word? Trust. I already said it. But. But yeah. So you can kind of see like interesting differences and what's a priority, you know, like, do I want everyone to remember my or do I want them to trust me? Not that they're mutually exclusive, but sometimes you have to pick, you know, your priorities and strategy.
- [11:00]
A
So fun fact, trust or jingles, they both sound like very, very positive ways of getting people on board with your brand. Okay, so let's talk. Okay. Anything more on performance tv? Before we start talking about sports, we
- [11:18]
B
should talk about Cappy.
- [11:19]
A
Oh, Cappy. Netflix and Cappy. So which. So conversion APIs for people that know they kind of like took off like wildfire among all the social platforms as a way to get better measurement. Post cookie. And now it seems like there's another cookie less environment TV that's getting on the capi train.
- [11:38]
B
Yeah, so capi is not a nickname for capybaras, but rather conversion APIs. So backing up a bit. I mean, of course this is, you know, already a staple in, you know, digital online platforms like Google meta, LinkedIn, Snap, you get the point. So this is more new for streaming environments because as we've discussed up until this point, attribution is tricky. So Roku has a conversion API now, they had a blog post out of this recently. And then Netflix is the most recent streaming platform to unveil a cappy, and it made an announcement last week in addition to, I guess more targeting options as well. So the point really being that Netflix really wants advertisers to know, you know, you've asked for targeting and measurement. We are listening. And now, voila. This is designed to, you know, prove that Netflix impressions leave to outcomes. Now up until then, up until now, there's still not really detail on how exactly Netflix plans to do this through its capi. But you know, it's still a very, you know, obvious testament to overall trends in streaming platforms. Trying to be more measurable.
- [12:46]
C
Well, trying to be more like walled gardens also to some extent.
- [12:49]
A
Right.
- [12:49]
B
Two things can be true.
- [12:52]
A
Are there any other streamers that are using cappies besides Netflix or is Netflix the first one?
- [12:58]
C
Roku has a self serve API that I guess resembles a Cappy and then so does Comcast in Universal ads. But to your point earlier about like bringing in smaller and Local businesses that are used to social, like that's so far feels like it's very much the push of what a lot of these things are when they market them out to businesses of like, hey, like it's, you know, similar to cappies that all these social platforms have. So like, hey, isn't it easy to do that? You should do it with us too.
- [13:33]
B
So I think what's coming full circle here is, you know, this concept of performance TV being not only do I want to measure it, but I also want to be able to the, to buy it and target it as if it were search and social. So that's kind of, I think those are two sides of the same coin as far as like streaming services trying to resemble, you know, other digital platforms that are, you know, easy to track and easy to buy.
- [13:58]
A
Okay. And capybaras are the. We're deeming at Ad Exchanger the official mascot for cappies. We have a fun comic strip featuring a capybara. So that will just be our new cappy meme and mascot.
- [14:15]
C
I feel like I don't know much about Cappy's the conversion APIs yet. Is there something in how the capybara, like the baby looks exactly the same as the adult but just smaller? Is there some kind of metaphor in there? I don't know. It's really just an excuse to bring up.
- [14:33]
A
We're going to work on it. We're going to create the capybara metaphor. I'm going to watch some nature documentaries about capybara and be like, oh, it's just like a cappy in how they mate or search for prey or whatever. I don't even know. Are they carnivore and omnivore? Definitely not.
- [14:51]
C
Their eyes are like on either side of the head.
- [14:54]
B
We'll work on it. We'll work on it.
- [14:56]
A
Yeah. So we'll take a quick break and then we're going to talk about live sports, which is in some ways maybe the opposite of a performance tv. It's the big splashy tenfold, the high cost and the unskippable viewing. So stay with us. I'm Sarah Sluice, Editorial director of Ad Exchanger, and I have with me here the chief Growth officer of Zeta, Ed C. Who leads the charge in helping businesses and CMOs achieve measurable, high impact marketing outcomes. Thanks for joining us, Ed.
- [15:33]
D
Sarah, great to see you. Thanks for taking the time with me today.
- [15:36]
A
Yeah. So what's different in the year 2026 about how brands and agencies are approaching ad tech?
- [15:46]
D
So, Sarah, I think it's a really, really interesting time. For years, we've all been talking about ad tech and martech and all these different things. But at the end of the day, as a marketer, what am I responsible for doing? Helping people make marketing decisions, helping them make buying decisions through a series of touch points. AdTech and MarTech are actually artifacts of our history of how we bought media and how we managed our own touch points. What's finally happened with today's technology is we can release some of those artifacts and bring adtech and martech together. I think that's going to be a huge thing. We're seeing more and more people doing that, and it's releasing marketers to have the freedom to really say, how do I reach Sarah? How do I recognize Sarah? How do I reach Sarah? How do I offer something relevant? And how can I see the results of the communications I'm having with Sarah?
- [16:44]
A
So, yeah, let's talk more about that freedom that comes from blurring the lines between ad Tech and MarTech. What else happens when you kind of unify things and blur them, bring them together?
- [16:56]
D
Well, a couple of things happen, Sarah. Instead of saying, how much did this channel produce? We actually started saying, how profitable is Sarah? To us, it changes from measuring a channel to doing what marketers are really responsible for, creating a profitable customer and saying, what did each touch point, what did each offer, what did each thing actually contribute to the profitability of that particular customer and allows the marketer to actually say, I'm managing a supply chain, and I'm managing the most important supply chain to a company, the customer supply chain.
- [17:35]
A
So how does that unified customer view then empower marketing teams and agencies once they know about this profitable customer?
- [17:45]
D
Well, one of the big things here is it lets them do the really unsexy side of marketing waste management. And that is incredibly important. Making sure that you're able to stop the wasted impression. The extra touch point we have all probably in the last two weeks bought something and then got another impression trying to sell you the thing that you just bought. It helps take those things out, things that you would never buy. It allows us as marketers to say, I am being able to recognize a pocket of opportunity with precision. I can reach that pocket of opportunity again with precision. I can be more informed of what relevant items I can bring to that person, and I can leave enough data to actually say what's working, what's not, and see the results. It's incredibly empowering, it's incredibly freeing. And as a marketer, it Helps you have a better conversation with your cfo, which some of those conversations haven't always been so positive.
- [18:46]
A
Okay, so less waste, more profit, better meetings with your cfo. Thank you, Ed, for weighing it all down for us.
- [18:55]
D
And it slices bread along the way too.
- [18:59]
A
Wonderful. Thank you to Ed and thanks to Zeynep for supporting our podcast.
- [19:04]
D
Thank you, Sarah.
- [19:10]
A
And we are back. So, so maybe just like TV itself, the live sports related content was some of the best attended in the conference. We had the NHL there, lots of people talking about the live sports opportunity. What's kind of the, you know, behind, behind the headlines about where live sports is going?
- [19:31]
B
Yeah, so I, I, I think it's about getting more, you know, younger viewers watching live sports streaming mostly because advertisers want to reach more younger viewers and, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha often watching sports through, you know, highlights, small, shorter clips, snackable things, snackable videos on social media. So what I'm noticing, and this came up during the event too, because we had someone from the NHL kind of talking about what, what the league is doing to, I guess, adapt its programming to try to get some of those younger viewers watching through streaming more and then therefore get more ad dollars. So, so actually I'm surprised that AI hasn't come up yet in the podcast, but the NHL is using some AI to try to integrate some like, highlights and shorter snackable clips onto its actual live stream programming because, you know, like I said, to adapt to the way that Gen Z or Gen Alpha, younger viewers tend to be watching sports. And it's also, it's also using AI in the, in the user experience in the sense that it's trying to make it easier for maybe sports fans that live in remote areas to, you know, watch the Rangers live. And it's so just kind of to, for example, you know, clicking around to be able to move to pan the view, see the full studio as the game's going on. So, so that was pretty interesting too, which is all to say, you know, the more that a league can cater to these younger viewers, the more they think that they'll get marketers and ad dollars as a result. So that was interesting. That came up at the event.
- [21:01]
C
So I, I don't think I was in the room for the sports one. I think it was backstage either prepping for something or, I don't remember, it's a blur. When you say that they're using AI to develop highlight reels, are they like, are they using AI technology to decide what to cut and turn into a highlight Rather than having, like, human editors
- [21:19]
B
do that, I think. I think the point was more about, I guess, like, making the integration on the screen sort of clean. I'm not really sure how they, you know, pick and choose which tapes. Probably, you know, if we had Fireside chat with the NHL, maybe we should do that next time. We could find out more information. But, yeah, it'll be interesting to see. I mean, I'm starting to like hockey a bit more because my family likes it. So I'll let you know if I see anything interesting in the wild.
- [21:42]
C
Is your family a bunch of women who like watching boys kiss?
- [21:45]
B
No, actually, quite the opposite. They're just a bunch of Rangers fans and dudes.
- [21:49]
C
Has nothing to do with heated rivalry at all.
- [21:51]
B
Not at all.
- [21:52]
C
What a foreign concept.
- [21:53]
B
I know, I know. Aren't I boring?
- [21:56]
A
I think someone's going to have to do something. It's like kind of like the. Maybe another equivalent to, like, the Taylor Swift, like, Travis Kelsey football effect. Like bringing new people into sports could. Who would have thought? I think the whole idea of this snackable clip is interesting, too. I'm not a huge sports viewer. I do love the Olympics, though. And I would say over the Olympics I watch. There are a few things I like specifically search for on YouTube, like, something I missed. Also, there were a lot of clips just available in the Peacock plus platform, which was nice, but there's also, like, something kind of. There's a little bit of, like, storytelling that's missed when, like, you just kind of watch, like, the gold. The gold medal thing. You don't have that, like, lead up of watching all the other people, like, go on their ski run and like, well, will that person beat the best time? Or, like, will that jump be the one? Like, when you just watch the winning one, it's, like, actually not as satisfying. So I definitely see room for both. And I think it also can be kind of a little bit of an on ramp onto certain sports. I watched the Netflix ice dancing documentary and then I was, like, watching the ice dancing routines on YouTube and then I ended up watching it live. I feel like that was a big winning part of the Olympics for me. I didn't know I liked ice dancing, but I do when I know the story behind the couples. So really interesting to see the NHL doing that. I wonder if they have clips of, like, the fight highlight reel or, like, you know, goal highlight reels. I feel like I need it in slow mo because hockey is so fast that I'm like, where did that puck go? Like, oh, there's a goal. Like, I was looking, I was looking where it was a few seconds ago. So that might be helpful for me. I need like the, the augmented reality version of hockey for sure. Okay. So live sports. And also I think, Alyssa, one thing that I'm certainly paying a lot of attention to and I think the industry is paying a lot of attention to is this whole move around what will happen with sports rights. You kind of reference like, oh, can social be a way where someone can watch part of a game that they can't because the game's not playing in their market? There's even been some, I believe it's an antitrust case around where sports rights are going. Not wanting it to go to some of the, the streamers or how things are packaged. So I think that's going to be a really interesting area to watch because we've seen many sports rights go over to streamers. I feel like the Thursday Night Football was the first one that really everyone paid attention to. But then what happens if the regulators step in? It'll be just really interesting to watch and it's going to be like a multi year unfolding.
- [24:44]
C
Well, and it's interesting. Something you hear really consistently from, from both publishers and advertisers. Basically everybody in the advertising industry about live sports is that they don't treat it like it's different based on where it's available, both in terms of like the advertisers themselves and then the people who are watching like technically speaking, Thursday Night Football on Amazon or whatever is like CTV in a way that it's not linear tv, but that doesn't matter to the people who are watching it. It's just the game. It's just TV to them. And I think it comes up a lot in conversations about converging linear and streaming because habits are changing and the way that people are tuning in kind of isn't deep down, as far as the behavior goes.
- [25:37]
A
Yeah. I want to close by bringing up one more thing, which is we know that Netflix backed away from the Warner Brothers Discovery deal. Paramount has stepped in. It's like the sixth or seventh time that Warner Brothers has been sold. It's like the Liz Taylor of. I know Alyssa and I are like, what's the right joke? Is it like the Liz Taylor of companies? It's been with so many different types of.
- [26:08]
C
I've been saying it's the hope diamond of companies because it brings doom to whoever ends up buying it.
- [26:17]
A
That's true. Yeah. AOL Time Warner, anyone? Or when AT&T Warner Brothers, man. Yeah, there's a few diamonds in there, Victoria.
- [26:30]
C
They buy the tower, they get the Animaniacs, they don't know what to do with it.
- [26:36]
A
I think a lot of the approval of that deal, too, stems from the consumer choice, similar to what's going on with live sports. Is it an issue for consumers and how they can access sports and how much they have to pay to watch sports. But if I'm an advertiser, I think on one hand the added scale feels like a great thing and maybe more simple to me to buy. And if you look at, actually, for those that will listen to a few weeks ago, the David Foster WP Media case, the hundreds of millions that are spent on each streaming platform, it still is very much dwarfed by what's spent on the trade desk or Amazon or these other very large platforms. Obviously Meta and Google, they actually are small potatoes next to those companies, which is always their argument for getting mergers approved. But if an advertiser scales, great. But maybe there might be some pricing issues that often happen when companies consolidate.
- [27:38]
C
Yeah, it's especially interesting now, and I wrote about this a little bit for the CTV Roundup newsletter that we put out last week during Convergint TV World. So if you were at the event and you didn't see it in your inbox, go back and look. It's probably in there. But it's especially interesting to me that David Ellison, who's the CEO of Paramount's Skydance, is already talking about consolidating Paramount plus and HBO Max. A, because Warner Brothers Discovery tried to do that with Discovery Global and then changed their minds when they realized it was a bad idea, actually to put all of this stuff in one thing, just in terms of branding and trying to move consumers from one service to another. But B, yeah, to your point, it increases scale, but then at the same time it will likely, I imagine, lead to less diversity and opportunity for the adverts that are trying to achieve that scale. Because if you're only talking to one platform as opposed to two platforms, they're just inherently going to have less bandwidth to talk to as many companies. Yeah, they might have a big sales team, but just inherently, it's easier to diversify across a wider number of platforms that are owned by different companies than it is with one company that owns one platform, regardless of how big that platform is.
- [29:01]
B
And then on the, on the measurement side too, if there's consolidation, I mean, especially if, if we're talking about Warner Bros. Discovery, you know, being bought by Paramount, Skydance then, I mean, that's one less walled garden that buyers have to, you know, sift or deal with in order to get some sort of holistic picture of what's happening. Because that is sort of the biggest complaint as it pertains to the lack of transparency in CTV environments, which on
- [29:28]
C
the one hand I could see being a benefit if it simplifies things, but on the other hand is a problem if you have to rely on that one company to be correct. Like, I worked at a website in 201516 during the Facebook pivot to video craze. And. And so I still still keeps me up at night, you know, like, it's hard to trust a walled garden that has no competitors when they tell you things that they say are true. Like there's nothing to sort of like corroborate or back them up on the outside.
- [30:04]
A
I think also as a consumer, I feel like I kind of wanted some of the streaming platforms to consolidate. But then there is something that's a bit jarring just from the having to switch between different apps, but one actually, if you have a good smart tv, they actually can help with the search functionality across a whole bunch of the apps with varying levels of success. But also it is quite jarring when you have the HBO premium content next to some of the strange TLC Discovery reality shows. And it's, oh, there's different content here that I wasn't aware of. Or similarly Disney. I use that for my kids. And then you've got the Hulu stuff in there as well. And I'm like, no, don't continue watching that one. I probably should just get better with my profiles. But there's something that's kind of funny when you. It starts to just look more like regular TV channels where you've got one thing on one, extreme one on the other, rather than kind of have this unifying thing. When you, when you used to open the HBO app, you really knew what you were getting. And all the content kind of had a certain HBO Y ness to that. And HBO is probably the best example of that. I want to finish up by going back to the question which you guys did answer, but 2026 is the year CTV is going to or it's the year of. It's not the year of mobile, it's the year CTV did what
- [31:35]
C
I mean, I already said takes over the funnel. I guess I could also follow it up.
- [31:38]
A
Takes over the funnel.
- [31:39]
C
The year CTV becomes holistic.
- [31:43]
A
Okay, the year CTV takes over the funnel becomes holistic. Not just the year performance tv, but the year it takes over the funnel. I love that.
- [31:50]
B
Victoria Alyssa yeah, I think it's the year CTV and I kind of touched on this earlier, but really starts to thrive in in a gray area of not quite being like strictly a reach vehicle, but also not social media, but existing somewhere in the middle and also advertisers and publishers being able to actually capitalize on that middle ground, existence.
- [32:14]
A
Okay, cool. I love this. It's a year of change. Continued change, continued maturity, reorganization, restacking. We got a lot of new players in the fields then, now they're consolidating. It's just very fascinating. Continues to be one of my favorite beats to follow. Thank you Victoria and Alyssa for sharing these insights and we'll see you next week. This episode was brought to you by Zeta. Zeta's AI platform unifies paid, owned and earned media into one powerful growth engine, optimizing performance in real time and driving measurable outcomes with confidence. Don't hope for a higher ROI. Expect it with SEDA. Learn more at sedaglobal.com adexchanger.