AMY: The Truth About ‘Let Them’: A Mel Robbins Deep Dive

Summary

Podcast Summary: AMY: The Truth About ‘Let Them’: A Mel Robbins Deep Dive

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Bobby Bones Show
• Host/Author: Premiere Networks
• Episode: AMY: The Truth About ‘Let Them’: A Mel Robbins Deep Dive
• Release Date: July 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bobby Bones Show, hosts Amy and Kat engage in a deep and introspective conversation about Mel Robbins, a prominent self-help author and life coach. The discussion revolves around Mel Robbins' popular "Let Them" theory, exploring its effectiveness, origins, and the controversies that have arisen surrounding it. This episode serves as a critical analysis aimed at helping listeners discern whom they can trust in the realm of self-help and personal development.

Personal Disillusionment with Mel Robbins

Amy begins by expressing her growing skepticism and disappointment with Mel Robbins, whom she once considered a trusted figure in self-help. She shares her struggle with reconciling her admiration for Mel Robbins with emerging controversies.

Amy (02:11): "I already feel like I've had to let go of Jay Shetty and now Mel Robbins. So I need to know who we can trust."

Introducing the Deep Dive

Kat introduces the concept of their "deep dive" series, where they critically examine influential figures and ideas to educate themselves and their listeners.

Kat (02:34): "It's our first official deep dive. So this is something we'll do from time to time."

Background on Mel Robbins

The hosts delve into Mel Robbins' background, highlighting her academic achievements and career transition. Mel Robbins, a Dartmouth and Boston College Law School alumnus, shifted from being a public defender to a life coach after seeking guidance from a life coach herself.

Kat (17:00): "She went to Dartmouth. She's a lawyer... she trained for two years under this person by phone, email, and in-person visits occasionally."

The Origin of "Let Them" Theory

Amy recounts how she first encountered the "Let Them" theory through a viral video by Mel Robbins, where Mel encourages individuals to let go of negative influences without overanalyzing or confronting unnecessarily.

Amy (34:26): "I just heard about this idea or theory called Let them... just let them and move on with your day."

Criticism of the "Let Them" Theory

The discussion shifts to the critiques of the "Let Them" theory. Kat references an Instagram account, Therapy for Women, which outlines several criticisms:

1. Excuse for Avoidance: The theory can be misused to escape necessary conversations and compromise in relationships.

2. One-Size-Fits-All Approach: Treating complex personal issues with a simplistic solution can lead individuals to feel inadequate if the method doesn't work for them.

3. Shame and Failure: If "Let Them" doesn't yield results, individuals may feel shame or believe there's something inherently wrong with them.

4. Ignoring Root Causes: The theory fails to address deeper issues such as abuse or trauma, making it ineffective in serious situations.

5. Plagiarism Concerns: "Let Them" appears to be derived from Cassie Phillips' poem of the same name, raising questions about originality and proper attribution.

Kat (42:16): "The Let them theory is somewhat like radical acceptance too, which we've talked about on here, which is part of dbt, which is a part of a therapy that's already been created."

Plagiarism Controversy

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the alleged plagiarism involved in Mel Robbins' "Let Them" theory. Amy and Kat uncover a timeline suggesting that Mel Robbins may have appropriated Cassie Phillips' work without proper credit. They highlight discrepancies between Mel's book narrative and the timeline of Cassie's original poem.

Kat (54:30): "So in 2019, Cassie Phillips writes the poem Let Them... In May 13, 2023, Mel Robbins makes viral TikTok sharing the discovery of Let them... In December 2024, she publishes the book the Let Them Theory."

Amy shares her personal disappointment upon discovering this overlap, which led her to stop supporting Mel Robbins' work altogether.

Amy (53:07): "This entire scenario was the downfall of my relationship with Mel. ... I couldn't finish it. Which then those articles and podcasts led me into more research and then now I'm just Disenchanted."

Impact on Personal Trust and Discernment

The hosts discuss the broader implications of such controversies on personal trust and the importance of critical thinking when following self-help gurus. They emphasize the necessity of evaluating the authenticity and ethical standards of influential figures.

Kat (73:21): "You are allowed to change your mind at any point. ... You can change your mind about how you feel about them."

Guidelines for Trustworthy Influencers

To aid listeners in navigating similar situations, Amy and Kat propose a set of questions to assess the credibility and trustworthiness of self-help figures:

1. Is it too good to be true?
2. Do their actions match their words?
3. How do they handle critique and accountability?
4. Do they show humility or just authority?
5. What do they gain from your trust? Are they guiding, helping, or just selling?

Kat (69:00): "Five questions... One, is it too good to be true? Two, do their actions match their words?... Five, what do they gain from your trust?"

Conclusion and Takeaways

Amy and Kat wrap up the episode by reaffirming the importance of personal agency and discernment in choosing whom to trust and follow. They encourage listeners to critically evaluate the information and the influencers they engage with, ensuring that their personal growth is supported by authentic and ethical guidance.

Amy (73:43): "Because if I'm going to be watching somebody's videos or reading their books... Let them, let us."

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Notable Quotes:

• Amy (02:11): "I already feel like I've had to let go of Jay Shetty and now Mel Robbins. So I need to know who we can trust."

• Kat (03:00): "I was the biggest Mel Robbins fan... I just couldn't finish the book."

• Kat (33:35): "The Let them theory is somewhat like radical acceptance too... which is a part of a therapy that's already been created."

• Amy (53:07): "This entire scenario was the downfall of my relationship with Mel... I couldn't finish it."

• Kat (73:21): "You are allowed to change your mind at any point."

• Amy (73:43): "Because if I'm going to be watching somebody's videos or reading their books... Let them, let us."

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This episode serves as a reflective and critical exploration of Mel Robbins' influence in the self-help space, urging listeners to engage with such content thoughtfully and ethically.

Transcript

[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

If you ever have feelings.

[Amy]

And you just want some, maybe a cat got you covered like a number.

[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

This is feeling things with Amy and Kat.

[Amy]

Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy.

[Kat]

And I'm Kat.

[Amy]

And feeling of the day is annoyed because the question is, I mean, is there anyone we can trust anymore? And if so, how do we know we can trust them? Because I already feel like I've had to let go of Jay Shetty and now Mel Robbins. So I need to know who we can trust.

[Kat]

Yeah, and I'm glad you're asking that question because you know what?

[Amy]

Today is the Mel Robbins deep dive.

[Kat]

It's our first official deep dive. So this is something we'll do from time to time. I'll do it with you and then you'll do it with me. And we'll take turns teaching each other something. And it can be about a person, a thing in pop culture, just a random idea we want to learn about. And we're starting with Mel Robbins and her let them theory. And you are the teacher and I'm the teacher.

[Amy]

I am the student.

[Kat]

You are the student.

[Amy]

And I was the biggest Mel Robbins fan. And not saying that I'm not in general, I still follow. I'll dabble. I like guests that she has on. I just have found myself increasingly bummed. I guess would be the feeling of like. Or just kind of this weird feeling. Okay, disappointed could work. Or just confused. Like it's. It's more of a feeling like I. I don't even know that I've got the exact word other than like ick. Yeah.

[Kat]

Not an ick.

[Amy]

And eh, I'm getting a. Just like sometimes I'm like, you know, I was reading her book. I have followed her for years and enjoyed a lot of her stuff. I have learned a lot from her. I've learned a lot from her guests. I have shared a lot of her information. I've regurgitated it on my own podcasts and quoting her, of course, not as my own stuff, but it's someone that I was like, oh, we need to be paying attention to this person. And I do think that she is helping in a certain way. But I know through your deep dive research, you wouldn't necessarily define her as a helper. And I'm very curious as to why that is and what category we actually should put her in. But back to her latest book, I was trying to read it and that's when the just really started to seep in because of the controversy around let them theory and where it originally came from. Because as an avid follower of hers, I know when I first saw her post about it, I remember being in my closet.

[Kat]

Well, you're getting to have yourself.

[Amy]

Okay, I won't get ahead because I know you're the teacher, but I'm just letting you know that's when the, the unease started to set in. Yeah, because I couldn't even finish the book because that was a controversy that gained a lot of attention online. There's a lot of podcasts about it, there's a lot of threads about it all over the place. And so you can do your own research into it, but it just gave me the. The ick and I couldn't finish it. Which then those articles and podcasts led me into more research and then now I'm just Disenchanted.

[Kat]

Yeah, that's a good word. She's somebody you or. I know. This is how I felt. I want to like her. I want to like her so bad. But there's something also. Yes. This disenchantment with that. You're like, oh, the. The screen has been lifted. Like, we see behind the curtain, and we don't like what we see. And one thing that I kind of relate it back to is there was a. There was a job I had at one point in my life, and it was like my dream job. Like, I could not believe that I was chosen to work there. And I started working there in this. This very evident, like, unethical thing was just running around the workplace. And this is. In the mental health field. There's a bunch of therapists. So it's. It was pretty black and white that it was unethical, but everybody knew about it. And that's what led me to quit. Because I said to my. I loved my boss. I looked up to him so much. I thought he was very wise. And he wasn't, like, in charge of the thing that was unethical. He was, like, stepped down. But I said to him, I said, I can't stay here anymore because I know about this and you know about this, and we all know about this, and I'm not privy to a lot of the insider information, but you are. So if you're showing us this and it's that bad, what are you not showing us? And he didn't really say anything. He just was like, all right, get your stuff. You're out of here. Pack your bag, sister.

[Amy]

Nice knowing you.

[Kat]

And then a lot of people quit, too. And that's what kind of this feels like is. We know this is. So we'll get into the. What you're talking about, the controversy around her book. We all know about that. It is so obvious. There's proof. It's all the timelines. So if that's there and she's just acting like it's not.

[Amy]

Doesn't exist. I. I don't know how it has not been addressed on her end at all whatsoever. I. I'm really. That perplexes me.

[Kat]

So what we're going to look at is where she comes. Where she comes from. Like, how did she get here? Who is she? And then we'll look at the book, and I think there's some. There's some criticism around just the book in general. And then this controversy, which is also there at the same time, which, since we're dancing around It. I'll just say it. There's. The main point of her book seems to be. Seems to be taken from a smaller, less known artist writer. And it's pretty evident and there's a lot of proof in it, but she's refusing to acknowledge it, which.

[Amy]

A simple acknowledgement. That's what so blows my mind. So crazy.

[Kat]

She could still write the book.

[Amy]

Totally. And then just like credit this girl. Which even that. Both of them, even that girl, which I'm sure you get into it and like have her name and everything. I. I don't even remember her name.

[Kat]

Cassie.

[Amy]

Cassie. That's it. Okay, so Cassie. I think also the idea of Let them. Who knows how many people before Cassie have even said that? Okay, let them. Okay, let them. I saw a funny video from some girl in New York the other day. She's like, you want me to give you the New York version of Mel Robbins, the let them theory? She's like, f them. She's like, someone does this to you. Someone does that to you. F just was. It was really funny. It made me laugh.

[Kat]

But it's not revolutionary.

[Amy]

Even Cassie, her poem. Even poem. I get in trouble for how I say poem. I don't say it correctly. I get it.

[Kat]

I've gotten so used to you saying it like that.

[Amy]

You're used to me saying poem. Cassie's poem about Let them. It went viral. And I don't think Cassie would say that she's even with that viral poem. Poem that she's the first person that's ever had this idea of let them. You know, and.

[Kat]

Yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah, it's wild. It's interesting. And I. Before we.

[Amy]

Cassie Phillips. Yes, that's her name.

[Kat]

Before we go deeper into this, I do want to say I am just sharing you with what I have found. And I'm sharing a couple opinions I have made based on what I have found. But I really not trying to just like bash her. I think if I was honest, what I really wanted to find is that she was what we want her to be. Because we all want somebody to look up to. We all want somebody to trust. We all are looking for somebody to guide us. And I discovered her. I first heard about her when she had her TED Talk. It was how to. How to get people to stop screwing you over or how it was something about screwing people over, like 2011. And have you heard it?

[Amy]

Yeah, I've watched it. Okay. Of course I have. I was like, big fan. Big fan.

[Kat]

But it. It was. It was old. So I didn't know if.

[Amy]

So it's not how I discovered her though. I think I first heard of her with her five second rule. And somewhere on Instagram she came up and I immediately started following her. And then of course I started high fiving myself in the mirror.

[Kat]

Which was one of her books.

[Amy]

Yes. So, and then I would do the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, get out of bed. And I liked all of her science backed tips and tricks and hacks. I was a sucker for it all. And I still think that they could be helpful. I know that that's how I was exposed to her. And then I think I went back and watched some of her viral YouTube stuff in her TED talks and stuff that put her on the map with a lot of people. And then I would talk to you about her all the time. And I think it's worth noting that if people didn't gather from you working at that mental health place, that you're a licensed therapist in case anybody's listening. That is new.

[Kat]

Yeah. And when we, when I was on your fifth thing, you talked about her a lot. And I stay quiet because people probably are like, wait, you guys used to always talk about her. Like we used to have a joke of like take a shot once you hear a. Say, Mel Robbins.

[Amy]

Oh my gosh, I forgo about that. Yeah.

[Kat]

So we. You talked about it all the time. And I went along with it because I know that I'm somebody who is very. Is critical the right word? Very skeptical. I'm very skeptical.

[Amy]

Yeah, there's skepticism. And I like in your blood.

[Kat]

Yeah. Which I don't love then I do at the same time, but I get sick of that part of me. So I'm like, Katherine, let her, let her, let her, like Mel Robbins. If, if she's helping her, let her help her. And that is, I still believe that if, if she's helping you, that's okay. We don't have to throw the baby out with a bathwater. You can take parts of this. And also know when you need to like set a boundary for yourself or know when to say, okay, this makes sense, but I don't have to take all of it at the same time. And so if you're listening, you're like, you guys used to talk about her all the time. You are hypocrites, kind of. But also we have more information now and that's part of it.

[Amy]

I think this is an example too of, well, critical thinking, which we've discussed previously, and then evolving and figuring out what works and what doesn't work. I mean there are things that I would get from Mel that I would even try out myself and it just didn't sit right. Like it didn't feel right.

[Kat]

Like I was high five in the mirror. Or you're like, no, that worked.

[Amy]

No, I kind of like that. I don't mind that so much. And then you know, even the five second rule, like I get the stuff behind find it, but sometimes it's just like the simplest stuff that you need. Sort of like drink water.

[Kat]

But how is she writing this is my question. How does she write a whole book on counting to five and let them? Like that could be.

[Amy]

Well I didn't read the 5 second rule, so I'm not sure.

[Kat]

Like that's an article that's near here nor there. So. Okay, we could talk about this forever. I could talk about this topic for five hours. So for the sake of time, shall we? All right, so before we get into the juice, I did find this idea on a very credible website.

[Amy]

What's the website?

[Kat]

Reddit.

[Amy]

Oh yeah, super credible.

[Kat]

And I was reading threads just of people's opinions on Mel and you know, leading me down a black hole. And somebody said this, I just thought I'd never heard this before. I thought it was interesting. The term is cruel optimism. And that shows up. It shows up I think in a lot of her content and specifically her book, but it shows up with a lot of self help content. And of course in the comments somebody was like, I'm not familiar, what is cruel optimism? And this is what the person said. It comes from the philosopher Lauren Berlant and describes in a way the sort of false hope attachments people are given which redirect them from changing them their material reality. Most self help books provide a surface level false sense of solution which actually distracts people from making change in the material reality underlying their suffering. So essentially that's what it's saying is it makes people feel better about their circumstances without actually addressing the underlying issues. So it keeps them stuck and it becomes a tool of actually reinforcing what's actually happening and it works against them.

[Amy]

So is would growth and actual work on yourself, like deep inner work? Then that's what leads to us, the veil being lifted and us being like, what? Why am I?

[Kat]

Well, and that's I think following this person. Yeah, the criticism of the let them theory and like the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and all that stuff is when you're reading that stuff. I mean I've had this feeling too and I've Read self help books. You're like, oh my gosh, highlighting it like this, this makes so much sense. I'm gonna do this. And then when you actually do those things, they don't change anything about your life. The let them actually keeps you further away from actually addressing the issues that you have. Creating boundaries for people in your life, having intentional conversation, confronting people, like confronting people is part of real relationships. And so I just wanted to say that as a. We'll get back into it. But I thought it was just an interesting idea that it seems like. And that's why it's the cruel optimism. It seems like you're like, yes, this is going to change my life. But it keeps you exactly the same. Exactly the same.

[Amy]

It's sort of like you're just. You're hopping onto this wheel and you don't ever get off unless you dig deeper.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But the tips are designed to keep you surface.

[Kat]

And I think that creates this, the wheel. I like that idea. This, like coming back to that person. Right. So if I'm like, I'm waiting for her next book, that's going to solve the next problem. And that's a marketing tactic. Like always leave. Leave somebody needing the next thing. So, like, this book sets you up. It creates. It solves this problem, but it creates another problem. Somebody was talking to me about this Hannah Ellis, she's an esthetician. She was like, the beauty industry does that. So they'll create a product that solves this. Like back in the day, grapefruit scrub. It cleaned out your pores. Well, guess what? It gave you dry skin. So then what was the next thing? It's moisturizer. Yes. So it's the same idea. Okay, so I wanted to know when I started this, like, where does Mel come from? Like, what's her background? What gives her the right to like, be saying these things? And I have to say she's very. She's very credited. Like, she has degrees. She went to Dartmouth. Dartmouth. Dartmouth, Dartmouth, Dartmouth.

[Amy]

She went to Dartmouth. She's a lawyer. Right.

[Kat]

And then she went to Boston College for law school.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

So she is smart to be able to get into both of those schools. And she was a public defender, I think it was, for a while. And then she moved to Michigan for her husband's schooling. I think business school or something. And when she did that, she wanted to change careers, which I, I would get that, like, you want something different. Well, who do you think she talked to about changing careers? Like, if you wanted to change careers, who would you call? To help you figure out where you want to go.

[Amy]

Well, I mean, I would just call a friend.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I'd phone home. I don't know. Like, I'd call my sister. Who, who did she call?

[Kat]

She called a life coach.

[Amy]

Oh, I see. I don'. I don't have one of those. Okay, which should I.

[Kat]

Maybe she started seeing a life coach, and the life coach ended up saying, like. And this comes from an article. I. I want to give credit where credit is due. This comes from an article by Rachel Baker, and it was in the Boston magazine in 2007. So this is before she got super big. So she went to a life coach. The life coach was like, you should be doing what I'm doing. And Mel was like, yeah. And so how do you think she learned to become a life coach?

[Amy]

From her life coach. So she was trained. Like, the life coach saw something in her and was like, wow, you'd be really good at this. So then she decided, all right, show me your ways and like, take me under your wing and then I'll. I'll spread my own.

[Kat]

Yeah. So she. It says in that this article, she trained for two years under this person by phone, email, and an in person visits occasionally. Like just training over email. I guess it was 2007. Things were different back then. Probably wasn't. Zoom.

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

Was there Skype?

[Amy]

Maybe.

[Kat]

Maybe. Okay. So then she became a life coach. So by 2007, so this is what, 18 years ago? How much do you think she was charging in 2007?

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[Kat]

How much do you think she was charging in 2007 for life coaching?

[Amy]

I'm just going to guess. 500 an hour.

[Kat]

No, no. 350.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

But that's a lot. Like, that is the therapist don't even charge. That's double my rate as a therapist. So that's 2007. That's what blew my mind. Like, honestly, life coaches, their rates are cuckoo these days.

[Amy]

And they're not. They're not certified? No, like, I mean, I guess they. If you could be training under somebody. But do I have to have training or certificate?

[Kat]

No, you could to make yourself look credible. But there's no actual like you don't have to. I think that they're also, I will say this, I think that there is a place for life coaches. I'm not against them. When people stay in their lane and they do know like what they're actually coaching on, somebody on. I think there's a time and a place for it. Do I think sometimes they charge too much? Yes. But there's not like a governing body of them.

[Amy]

So I would say an average therapist though, just that has schooling and all the credentials, which there is a difference between a therapist and a life coach. Yeah. But I would say most therapists are probably like what, 150 an hour.

[Kat]

It depends on where you live.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

I think In New York, 500 wouldn't surprise me. In Nashville you're going to find between a licensed therapist like 150 to 250. And there's reasons why they would be higher and lower based on different trainings, certifications you have. And you said it's the same thing like therapists can also price gouge people.

[Amy]

So it's like a bottle of water at the gas station and the bottle of water at the airport. Same bottle of water. You just charge more.

[Kat]

Yeah. So okay. That was shocking to me. So she became a life coach and then she had this syndicated radio show called make it Happen with Mel.

[Amy]

Was that on serious?

[Kat]

I think so.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

And I was looking for if I could like listen to an old episode of it or something. So I typed in like make it Happen with Mel and now that just leads you to her website and she has like a two part online coaching program called Make It Happen with Mel. I don't know how much she's charging though because I didn't want to sign up for her email list.

[Amy]

She still has that business.

[Kat]

I mean it's. It was kind of hard if you didn't actually type in make it Happen with Mel. It was hard to find it on her website just by going through it. So she still does it. But I. It looks like it's like a pre recorded coaching sessions. So who knows how much she could be charging for that. So she has that side business. So this also was very interesting to me and this gets me into like my kind of thoughts and opinions on her. I think she's a genius. I think she is so smart. I do think she has helped people. But I also think that again my opinion, she is a businesswoman, not a helper. The helping is like almost by accident or it's like this, like some. Somehow this comes along sometimes. To me, her main goal is business, which also is like, we live in a capitalist society. Like that makes sense. The way she markets herself, the way she uses words and storytelling to kind of rope you in and wrap you in is incredible. Exhibit A, her website. On her bio, she says, At 41, I was unemployed, drowning in debt, and so overwhelmed that I could barely get out of bed. Then everything changed with one simple tool, the five second rule. It got me moving one small step at a time and led me here. Now, 15 years later, I host one of the world's biggest podcasts and my books have reached millions in over 50 languages. My work has changed billions of lives and can empower you too. Does anything stick out to you?

[Amy]

Yes. Well, right now my brain immediately goes to. It's reminding me of how Rachel Hollis would market herself as someone that didn't even go to college and was just coming up with recipes in her, like a stay at home mom. Baking started from the bottom. Now, right now, yes, like leaving out the part of like, well, okay, marrying a Disney executive. But that's a whole nother story in itself, which, okay, we're not going to derail, but that's where my brain went of. Sometimes how you tell a story and how you spin it can change everything. And then your followers are like, oh, I didn't go to college. I just make recipes at home. I could be this person. I am in debt. I have failed at this. But now look at Mel. All I have to do is count down from five and, and also there's.

[Kat]

This essence of look how hard she works to get there too. And like, if I just put in some hard work too, I can be there. And I did the math. And when she was 41, it was like 2010, 2011. By that time she was charging 350 for life coaching. She had a radio show and she was on the brink of her TED Talk, which really catapulted her.

[Amy]

What is she referring to?

[Kat]

She wasn't unemployed. She was self employed. She self funded a lot of her endeavors and that's why she says drowning in debt. But she probably took out business loans to start this venture for herself.

[Amy]

Well, and then I think her husband had a restaurant business that was failing, so they had invested a lot. And so then there's that storyline of like, all of our money was poured into this, that restaurant and it was going to fail. Okay, so she was employed, but by herself.

[Kat]

She wasn't. Yeah, she wasn't unemployed. She was a Life coach charging 350 an hour.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

And she was working with very high. I mean, she worked with a lot of big people and a lot. She helped a lot of big companies, I think, as well.

[Amy]

Well, I would think charging that much back then you would have to be working with successful people.

[Kat]

And I wonder, too, because you can only find so much information. If she really didn't work for a period of time, let's say she stopped taking clients or something, how long was that? And was that by choice, like this, the way she wrote this? I just was like, you act like you were on the brink of bankruptcy and that you were living on the street. You probably were living in a very nice house. You probably never really changed your lifestyle that drastic. So that's where I'm like, she is a genius.

[Amy]

And because it's not a lie.

[Kat]

It's not a lie. No. It's just the story is told differently, and she leaves certain parts out, and nobody's asking these questions to her. She's very calculated, calculated, very charismatic, and I just didn't buy that. And one of her big critiques that I read over and over was her arrogance. However, there's part of that that I think I was attracted to because she was so confident and she, like, had the answer. But then at the same time, it's. It. There has to be a crack somewhere. She doesn't let any of that show. And when she does, I feel like even that is calculated. Like we were talking earlier, when she shows that she's relatable, I'm like, is that story real? Or did you just tell that story in a way that would benefit you.

[Amy]

In the sense that she always has a relatable story. Like, even with her guests that come on. Which that's what I was drawn to as well. And I'm sure her story may be true now. I don't know. It might be true, but not true. Sort of like the first line of her bio on her website. I guess it just makes you wonder, which. The whole reason behind doing this again is just so that you can decide if and how you're going to trust people. Because there's a lot of people out there that are selling things and taking up a lot of our time and taking up a lot of our space. Yeah. And it's like, okay, then with this information, then you can start to kind.

[Kat]

Of who's taking that space up.

[Amy]

Take a peek behind the curtain a little bit and see if you want to keep going. And if you do, great. Because I guess I'm just reiterating it's not. I don't want this to feel like a bash session at all. It's just interesting to look at it in that way. Cuz I don't know. I would read the first line of that and I would be like, oh, interesting. Now this could happen to me. But because I know we're doing this deep dive and you're giving this information, my brain instantly went to other people I know that, that have now been exposed and have a reputation of presenting themselves as one way when it really was another.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I think we have to give it to her that she puts herself out there. Like in one of the articles I was reading, that was one of the things she was talking about. She was worried how people were going to perceive her. But that's the price you pay. But the price you pay for what? For fame or for money? For what's the. For what was the. Was the goal. Was that the price you paid for wanting to reach more people and help more people or to make more money? I don't have the answer to that. But I do. This was just an interesting quote from that article by Rachel Baker. She said to her, for TV you need to be relatable. The truth is I probably will never have a weight issue because I run. I'm a healthy eater and I'm disciplined. That's a liability. My challenge is will they relate to me because I'm a mom and I'm from the Midwest, or will they brush me off because they think I'm too arrogant or too confident or that my life is too perfect?

[Amy]

What? See, but then like I can't relate to that sentence at all whatsoever. Or that statement.

[Kat]

And this is the interesting thing to say to somebody that's interviewing you for an article you know is going to be in a magazine. Yes. That people around you are going to read. And I think that is. It just is. Her personality is interesting. I would never say that about myself. Also, like I run and I'm a healthy eater too. But it doesn't mean that I'm never going to. It was just. Doesn't mean I'm never going to have a weight issue. Like she just has this skewed sense of reality or a view of self. She's very privileged. And I think that as we move into some of the critique about her, the, her theory, she is very privileged. And that I don't think is ever really acknowledged that she is able to do X because she can do this. And when we are privileged and then we like sell this idea That I used the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and changed my life and now I'm a millionaire. And so can you, like, you have to acknowledge both because you're setting people up to either always come back and depend on you or to be manipulated. Okay, would you rather go into the critiques of the actual theory itself or do you want to go into the plagiarism controversy?

[Amy]

We can start with the critiques and then we'll get into the. Okay, plagiarism.

[Kat]

So Therapy for Women is an account on Instagram that I really love. She has a podcast and we listen to her podcast. Her podcast is called need for Nuance. And it's two therapists. And they talked about when this first came out, what was some of the nuance that was not mentioned in it. And so she put a carousel on Instagram. And I'm going to read some of the stuff that she talked about because I agree with most, if not all of it. And then we can add our own thoughts as well. But the first one she said why she disagrees with the let them theory, which we haven't said what the let them theory is. Do you want to explain it?

[Amy]

Well, is there an official definition for Mel? But in a nutshell, which, of course, when it first came out, I was saying it all the time. I'm pretty sure, like, even on the Bobby Bonnet Show. I mean, we talked about it on the podcast, but on a national radio show, I was like, oh, you know, Bobby, you need to do like Mel Robbins and just let them. So when I first heard Mel talk about it, she was just doing a selfie style video. And I think the example she gave is like, you know, she goes, I just heard about this, you know, idea or theory called Let them. And you know, if your friends are gonna go to lunch without you and not invite you, let them. Like, it was sort of presented like that as like this. Don't let it take up space in your brain and let it loop and run you ragged. Like, just let them and move on with your day.

[Kat]

Let them versus share with them that it hurt your feelings and that you want to be included.

[Amy]

Yeah, but that. No, I don't remember that. I just feel like that was what stuck with me from when I saw it. I know she gave other examples and I do see how that could be beneficial if it is working you up in a way where, like, you. If you don't have all the facts, like, if similar to, like, not making up a story that you don't know to be true, which I guess you could ask your friends about, like, hey, did something happen? I guess you all went to lunch. The whole lunch thing, that probably stuck with me because I think I've had moments where I've had friends doing something and I felt left out. And so I felt like, oh, okay, I can just let them. And I do see how that could come in handy if you. If you're not trying to be dramatic, you don't need to say anything because, like, what if there was a reason you weren't invited that you don't need to know about? Or it really doesn't matter. You can just let them. But I just know bigger situations and scenarios in life where let them just isn't going to work. Yeah, but I think Mel even addresses that some.

[Kat]

Right.

[Amy]

Eventually, I didn't finish the book, so.

[Kat]

This also reminded me of that other podcast that we listened to. It was. Are you up? Was the dating one. Dating one. So she did her podcast tour for her book, and it was interesting that she was even on that podcast because it was about dating. And so they were trying to get her to relate it to the dating scenarios. And I think that the hosts were being real realistic, like, okay, we get. She was saying, like, if somebody doesn't. Oh, my gosh. Do you. You. You listen to that, right? If you guys want to entertain yourself, listen to the first five minutes. Because she is so aggressive, and she was like, I'm going to tell you what's wrong with your dating life. And the problem is you. There's a way and there's a nuance, and there's just a finesse to sharing information when somebody's getting in their own way that most people are not going to listen to. They're going to. Okay, you're mean. I feel attacked now. I'm defensive. So that's just not a. From a. Honestly, from a helping standpoint, that's not the way to help somebody.

[Amy]

Was that more of her life coach vibes? Like, do you think when people were paying 350.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Plus a session like that, that's the version she was getting of, like, well, I don't give a F what you think. Like, there was somewhere in that episode, they asked a question about what a listener might be feeling, and she's not my effing problem. Yeah, well, they're not my effing problem. I was like, oh, ouch. Like, like, yeah, it did not feel like a helper.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

At all.

[Kat]

I think they asked, like, if. If somebody who's listening to this is having a Hard time grasping this concept that, like, if somebody doesn't want to date, you, just let them. Or if somebody doesn't answer your text, just let them. If somebody doesn't, blah, blah, blah, blah, let them. They were like, we grasp the idea, but for somebody who isn't able to just, like, grab that when they really with feelings are involved, when they like somebody, when they want to know what they did wrong, like, how do you get them to, like, get there? They were like, valid question, like, what's the route? And she was like, if they don't want to get there, that's not my effing problem. Or if they can't grasp this, it's not my. They're not my effing problem. And I just was like, well, I mean, you're. You're saying that you're trying to help them, so you're making them your problem and that you have the solution. And if they don't like your solution, then you're like, f off.

[Amy]

It felt very aggressive. And I remember my brain instantly thinking, like, oh, would she have talked this way on Oprah's podcast? And maybe she did. I don't know, because I was already disenchanted with her by the time she went on Oprah. So I didn't even, yeah, watch or listen to the full thing. I just saw clips online. But I wondered if her demeanor was the same with Oprah as it was with them, because she was very, very, very aggressive. I. I was confused by it.

[Kat]

And you can. You can be, I think, confident and strong. And again, one thing that drew me to her in the beginning is she had this, like, you just wanted to believe her. She just. She believed what she was saying. So you want to believe it. And I, as a early therapist, was struggling with my confidence and how to show up. One of my mentors actually told me one time, they were like, you need to harness your inner. And I was like, I can't do that. But then I saw Mel Robbins. I was like, I can be like her. It was like I got drawn in. But then that feels very different, the confidence than what she was showing on that podcast. It almost felt like she didn't like that. People were kind of poking holes of saying, like, well, we need more, because she didn't have the answer to that.

[Amy]

Right.

[Kat]

So the critiques that the women from Therapy for women had, we're gonna just talk about each one. There's five. The first one is, it can be an excuse.

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[Kat]

The first one is it can be an excuse. So to avoid hard conversations or learn how to compromise. There's a difference between letting someone go versus using let them to avoid necessary conversations in long term relationships. I would have loved this five, 10 years ago, last year, even like to be able to just like let them. I'm not gonna confront that. It's actually, I think creating more distance in your relationships than actually helping you. So number two is it's marketed as a one size fits all solution. When you try to apply a one size fits all solution and it doesn't work, the message becomes if this doesn't work for you, you're the problem.

[Amy]

Which is sort of her. Was her demeanor on that podcast.

[Kat]

Yes.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Which she probably would double down on. Like you don't want it bad enough or you're stuck and you're not listening or something like that. Number three, it can create shame if saying let them doesn't work or feels unhelpful. Lasting change is messy. It's non linear and it takes time. It's not something you can fix with a simple catchphrase. And I think that's something that I have feelings about where, like I love catchphrases like that. Like the wait to worry. Like, I like the idea of let them. I've. I have some of those Slow equals fast is one that I use in my office a lot. But those. I'm not writing an entire book.

[Amy]

Yeah, no, like we, we didn't, we didn't just.

[Kat]

And we're not applying that to every situation.

[Amy]

Right. We think they can come in handy. They're a tool to keep in your back pocket.

[Kat]

But that wouldn't sell if she was like, I have a tool that sometimes could work for you in certain situations and sometimes might not make any sense. Who's buying that? Like that. I think that's the problem with. That's what I, I run into issues with a lot of like the self help gurus, a lot of the Jay Shetty's of the world, a lot of the Mel Robbins of the world is that to sell something you have to create this, like, oomph about it. And most of the reality of therapy, I mean, we say this all the time. Remember when we did that little game when you asked me about the different anxiety tools and I was like, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Amy]

Well, I asked you to rate them on a scale of 1 to 10 because a lot of therapists were doing it online and it was super cute. And they would just give a direct number. They'd be like weighted blankets, five Cold plunges, seven. Journaling, nine Therapy tit. Like, you were like, every time he tried to answer, you're like, well, it depends. Which is so true. It does depend. Like, there is no number that will work for everybody. For some people, journaling is absolutely going to be a 9 or a 10. And then for somebody else it's going to be a one.

[Kat]

Well, guess what? That reel that we made with that didn't go viral. And that's probably why, because it's not that interesting. Like, that's the reality of real help and real therapy is it's like not that interesting sometimes it's like not that sexy. Yes. Which the let them theory. Oh, my gosh. If the way she actually. Well, actually I'm going to read. Shannon just gave us her website definition of Let them theory. The Let them theory is a step by step guide on how to stop letting other people's opinions, drama and judgment impact your life. Two simple words, let them will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you. It's time to build a life where you come first. Your dreams, your goals, your happiness. Like, okay, I want that, but okay.

[Amy]

And it says, I'm going to reiterate Two simple words, let them will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around.

[Kat]

You versus come to therapy. And maybe we might be able to find some help for you to feel better sometimes, but it is.

[Amy]

That is a bold claim.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Two words that are going to set you free.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I think the other thing is like, you can't. She can't be sued for false advertising because again, if it doesn't work, it's your fault. It's not because there's something wrong with my theory. It's that you're not doing the things that you're supposed to do. You're not buying into it or you're. Whatever. Anyway, next one, number four, it doesn't address the root cause of issues which I think we've kind of talked about. Shouting let them at someone who is in an abusive relationship or has trauma is unhelpful. That is a big one.

[Amy]

Yeah. I do feel like, in fairness, though, I believe Mel again didn't finish the book, but this can't apply to if you're in an abusive relationship. There's no way she would be like, well, let them.

[Kat]

I haven't read the book either. And there is a second part where it's like, let me. Which also is plagiarized.

[Amy]

From what?

[Kat]

From same person.

[Amy]

Cassie Phillips, too. Okay, well, I'm excited to get to the plagiarized part because then I want to talk about the prom part because there was no prom in the original video.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

There was only like the example of like your friends going to lunch without you.

[Kat]

The receipts don't match up.

[Amy]

That's right. There is receipts or there are receipts.

[Kat]

When her. The last critique of this, which is what we're getting into, is it was plagiarized. The original concept came from a poem called Let Them by Cassie Phillips about setting boundaries with people who don't value you while remaining open to those who do. So. Shall we?

[Amy]

We shall.

[Kat]

I will also say on top of all that, which is a thing with a lot of self help stuff too, is in a lot of the stuff with Jay Shetty is like, he's repackaging things that already exist. She's repackaging one, this poem that already exists. But the Let them theory is somewhat like radical acceptance too, which we've talked about on here, which is part of dbt, which is a part of a therapy that's already been created.

[Amy]

I wonder if she addresses that, I don't know. In the book. Probably not, because she'd be giving credit to something else.

[Kat]

I don't think she probably does because one. Then it's. She also says that she discovered this. She doesn't say she created it. She. She says over and over I discovered this theory from her daughter. Right. So.

[Amy]

But that's not true. Well, I think I know we're going to get into that, but that's the part where I'm like, it blows my.

[Kat]

Mind in a lot of the way she's talking about it. And a lot of her press she says, I discovered it. I discovered I discovered it. Like I came upon this thing, not I created it. And I think that's her way of getting around it. So I want you to tell your story because you heard about this before me and then you started kind of putting the dots together. And then I found some of this on the Internet. And I was like, look, it's true. So you tell me.

[Amy]

So back to my closet. I'm just scrolling Instagram.

[Kat]

Oh, when you were locked in your closet.

[Amy]

No, I was just. It's just where I was in my house. Like, you didn't ever hang out in your closet?

[Kat]

My closet's not that big.

[Amy]

I wasn't locked in it. No. I guess I would just sit in there sometimes. Or my bathroom was, like, all connected. But I remember that's exactly where I was. And the video hadn't even gone viral yet. It just was a video that popped up. And then later, I kept seeing it. I was like, oh, this really popped off. Like, this is now blown up. And I think even for Mel, she saw that and she was like, oh, there's something here. There's something to this. People are loving this let them theory. And I'm sure with her genius brain, she's like, I better take this momentum and let's go. Let's create a whole movement, a book, all the things. So I do know that I saw her kind of. She was just. She made a selfie style video. It seemed like she was maybe out on her porch or something, and she was like, hey, I gotta tell y', all, I just learned about this idea of let them. And I don't remember all the examples that she gave, but I do remember she did not talk about prom with her daughter. Mentioning it to her prom hadn't happened yet. Which in the book, when the little parts that I did read and the things that I know about her promotion around it, is that it came to her through her daughter. When they were sending her son off to prom, he hadn't put a lot of thought into it. He kind of decided to go last minute. And she, as the mom, was really frustrated. Like, the weather was bad. They were just gonna go to some taco truck. And she's like, we should really be making reservations and it's gonna rain. And like, she was just as a mom, like, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, and that at one point during it all, her daughter was like, mom, let them. It's his prom. Let them. If they want to go to a taco truck, let them. If they want to do this, let them. And that at that moment, Mel was like, you're right. And then the story went from there. But that's not where it started. Because I remember when she first posted about it, and she didn't say anything about her daughter or prom. And then since then, too, the sleuthers online or whatever you call them. Tons of people have collected the receipts and done the research and. And the timeline. They have. They put the original Mel video before prom. So, like, that. You have the timeline. Okay.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I have the video too. It's still there. So you guys can go fact check this. So what's. I have the timeline that a woman named Sage Justice. She has a substack called Sage Words. She created a whole timeline on this in a couple articles, I think, really, to give. Help. Give Cassie a voice and help get her the credit where credit was due. And I want to say before I go into this, that's the problem. Not that she took somebody else's poem and then created a book about it, because she could have done that in the right way. And what is that Picasso quote? That's like, good artists borrow, great artists steal. Like, we're all taking information from other people and creating new things. That's fine. She could have done that and put Cassie's poem in the beginning of the book as, like, a prologue. That would have been so cool for Cassie and for Mel. So my issue is it would have been so easy to lift this woman up versus she's acting like it never happened. No.

[Amy]

This entire scenario was the downfall of my relationship with Mel. I was still on board and very much a fan. This situation with Cassie is what lifted the veil the tiniest bit. And then the veil got fully lifted and I could not even finish the book.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And my sister knew I wanted that book. And my sister pre ordered it. I think she pre ordered, like, six of them. And my sister and I would call and we would talk about Mel Robbins. We'd exchange, like, Instagrams. Like, I'd text her this or text her that. Oh, we'll go see what Mel said here. Yes. Like, I was a fan. Like, this just really bums me out.

[Kat]

Like, I'm like, it yucked your yum. It.

[Amy]

This really yucks my yum. Because, dang it, I. I was excited to read the book, and then I wasn't. And then I sent it. I donated it to Goodwill so somebody.

[Kat]

Else can have it.

[Amy]

Somebody else could have it if they want it and maybe they need it, and it'd be perfect for them at whatever season of life that they're in. But the season I'm in, it just seemed very. And it was not cool.

[Kat]

And then it was not cool, Mel. This is not cool.

[Amy]

I just felt bummed, Like I'd been duped.

[Kat]

You were duped. That's the Feeling. And that feeling is so maddening. Oh, that's why I'm so skeptical. So let me read you the timeline. Also we got the quote. It's good artists copy, great artists steal. So it's okay to take. Also, like she could have because there, there really is. If we think about it, there's. Nobody has original thoughts. However, this could have been a really cool opportunity to help somebody.

[Amy]

And we're all inspired by so many people. Like yeah, bring her alongside. Like I don't know why it had to be the prom story versus I read this poem. Right. And then also even with her daughter. What? Really me. Okay, sorry. I had a pre ordered copy. So I have the og which will.

[Kat]

You can say that after.

[Amy]

Sorry, you're the teacher. You're the teacher. I. I didn't know what all you had prepared.

[Kat]

Well, I'm just gonna read this thing and then you tell. I know what you're about to say. Okay. Okay. Elsa will never get to the timeline.

[Amy]

Okay, timeline.

[Kat]

Okay, the timeline. So in 2019, Cassie Phillips writes the poem Let Them. September 2022, the poem Let Them by Cassie Phillips goes viral. October 2022, the poem Let yout by Cassie Phillips goes viral.

[Amy]

Oh, well, so in Mel's book though, the other part is. Let me.

[Kat]

Good job, Mel. That one's on you.

[Amy]

Okay. I think again, I didn't get to. That's right, I didn't get to that part of the book.

[Kat]

But in May 13, 2023, Mel Robbins makes viral TikTok sharing the discovery of Let them.

[Amy]

That's kind of cool to know that on May 13, 2023, I was in my closet. Based on that information, I know that May 20th.

[Kat]

May 20th, which comes after the 13th, 2023, the prom where Mel claims the origin story of her discovery happened.

[Amy]

So seven dates later.

[Kat]

Yeah, it's weird how time works that way. Also, I feel like I saw somewhere and somebody can fact check me on this because I don't have it written down right now. I think she interact. Interacted with Cassie's poem at some point.

[Amy]

Well, all I know is earlier this year when I was trying to read the book and I was starting to get perturbed because of this Cassie business. I did see that Cassie had posted somewhere some interactions with her and Melissa.

[Kat]

Mel can't say she doesn't know this person exists. May 2024, this is interesting. Mel Robbins files to trademark the phrase Let Them. September. October 2024, Mel Robbins announced she wrote a Let Them book. December 2024, she publishes the book the let them theory. And she was not able to get the trademark for whatever she was trademarking it for. Because you can't just trademark a random thing that you don't have. No, like, I can't trademark what's up, guys? I have no, like, content or anything that comes around that. Well, she could.

[Amy]

Is it because she filed for the trademark before she had the books?

[Kat]

Could.

[Amy]

If she had the book, then she could file for the trademark and say that that's like. Because I don't know. The only thing I've ever filed for is under like the podcast and. And then clothing, apparel, and you have to have a created product and be using it and selling it.

[Kat]

Well, so she tried to trademark for. Because if you look on like Etsy and stuff, there's tons of stuff that creators and artists and stuff make that says let them.

[Amy]

Maybe it was too generic.

[Kat]

I think it was too. That was. It was like too generic. She can probably trademark the let them theory now, but you can't just trademark that because then all. Also doing that puts all those people that are. That are already creating that content out of business. Like, that hurts these little people.

[Amy]

Well, if she were to obtain the trademark and she chose to take action on the little people, then it would impact them. If she let them. She let them just do it. She could be like, let them. Let them keep using it.

[Kat]

You know, that would be like, yes.

[Amy]

Because that's really when you're only going to get impacted, is if someone decides to pursue legal action against you. Like, the government's not going to say anything.

[Kat]

But she could.

[Amy]

Shannon found that this is sort of what I was trying to say. Yes, it is possible to trademark a phrase or a slogan, but it must be used to identify goods or services and be distinctive enough to function as a trademark. To trademark a phrase, it needs to be more than just a common saying. It should be used to distinguish your brand and its offerings in the marketplace. But if she had clothing with it on there or the book or different things where she's using it and it's tied to her, then she could. She could.

[Kat]

Before you say the other thing that I was like, don't say that yet. I found that Cassie, the original girl that wrote this poem, she credited the idea or the inspiration from her poem to the Madea video. Do you know who Madea is? Like the Tyler Perry.

[Amy]

Tyler Perry. Of course I know Medea. Hallelujah.

[Kat]

She has a viral YouTube video which we can post a link because it's interesting. And it's called Let Them go. And in it she says, if somebody wants to walk out of your life, let them go. So that inspired her poem. And I'm like, that right there is all you had to do. Like, just like Cassie was like, oh, this thing inspired this. It doesn't take away from her poem. It's just like, oh, that's cool to know the story of where that came from. The same thing Mel could have done.

[Amy]

But I guess she felt like crediting her daughter.

[Kat]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy]

Which I feel like if I was her daughter, I might be like, mom, I saw you post a video 7 days ago talking about let them. And then, yeah, I said that to you for the problem. Like, maybe her daughter did say that.

[Kat]

But maybe her daughter doesn't have as much power as her mom.

[Amy]

Well, obviously not, because that was what I was trying to say earlier was that her daughter worked with her mom on this book side by side. They posted about it multiple times. I don't even know, like a year of research. They acted like they were sitting at the kitchen table just day and night working on this project together. And then her name was not on the book. Yeah, that really threw me. But then you told me on later editions, because I had a pre order copy, that when it was reprinted or the new books were printed, that her daughter was added in smaller, smaller fonts.

[Kat]

On International Women's Day. And this is my thing about, like, she's a genius.

[Amy]

Like, oh, what a gift.

[Kat]

Yes. She made this announcement like, I'm doing this thing for my daughter. And I'm like, no, you're just putting the other author's name on the book. That should have already been there.

[Amy]

You should have put her a long time ago. It doesn't make sense that you didn't include her, especially if she's the entire inspiration for the thing.

[Kat]

But what a way to spin that of like, oh, I just was waiting to do this as a international Women's Day to support women. Like, versus being like, yeah, I was kind of narcissistic and I didn't put my daughter's name on it. That was a mistake. I should change it. So this is all leads me to like the kind of wrap up of.

[Amy]

My, like, how does that conversation go? Like, I'm honestly trying to picture it. Like, does she like, babe, I know you've been by my side and you're the one that told me about this let them theory. Like, remember, remember when, when your brother was going to prom and you were like, mom, let them. Let them go to the taco truck. And. And then we were like, oh, let's write a book. And then you sat by my side and we did all the research and we worked on it together. You know how we've done that. But I just am letting you know that only my name is going to be on the book. So thank you for everything inspiring this entire thing. But only my name. Like, how does she even say that? Like, how you say that to your daughter.

[Kat]

Let me put my name on.

[Amy]

Yeah. And you know what? If you. If you have any thoughts or feelings about this, I need you to just, you know, go high five yourself in the mirror.

[Kat]

Let them, Mom.

[Amy]

Like, just give yourself a 5. 4, 3, 2, 1. Drink some water, high five yourself in the mirror and then say, let them. Is that what you tell your daughter?

[Kat]

But that's the crazy thing is, like, the theory would say that the daughter should say, let them.

[Amy]

Yeah, let them.

[Kat]

Can't do anything about it. She doesn't want to give you credit for these hours and hours and hours and hours of work that you put into this project that's going to make her millions of dollars. Let them.

[Amy]

Let them. If someone's gonna take your idea, I mean, because really, this is the mom. Okay. She took it from Cassie or whatever. She was inspired. And Cassie got it from Madea, who's a fictional character. I love Madea. My mom loved Madea movies. Every time there was an ADEA movie, my mom was watching it. Yes. Like, always have a special place in my heart, which Tyler Perry, speaking of, like, who can we trust anymore? He was in the news recently, cause of stuff. And I'm like, please don't let that be true. Please don't let that be true. Maybe it is. And if it is to the victim, like, I will now have to be like, ugh, Tyler Perry, you suck. I don't know. Because claims can be made and. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't followed up the details there, but I'm like, dang it, I don't like reports like that.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But thankfully the truth should come out. So I do like reports like that, but you get what I'm saying.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I think that these situations, whether it's Tyler Perry, Mel Robbins, Rachel Hollis, whatever, when we find the cracks in the, like, too good to be true stories of these people that we're looking up to or that we're gaining insight from or that we're learning from, we're not able to, like, get the. What's the cart before the horse. Like, we're not able to know the information until we know it. So I think the glimmer in this whole conversation is that you are allowed to change your mind at any point. Like when you find more information about somebody that leads you to say like, oh, I don't think they had my best interest at heart. You're allowed to change your mind about how you feel about them. And I think you're a perfect we both are perfect examples because I once loved her too and the more we learned, the more we were like, oh, I don't know that I'm gonna take everything with the same weight as I once took from her. I'm going to think more. So we came up with some things to look for or Ask yourself When you are looking to somebody, whether it's a boss, a friend, a mentor, a famous person, a self help person, a therapist, a teacher, there are some things to ask yourself that might help you not get too far in before you see kind of the light.

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[Amy]

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[Unknown]

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[Amy]

Are these the questions that we came up with whenever I was paying money to a Face fitness person?

[Kat]

They're not the. They're similar. They're not exactly the same, but those are all. That's how to spot a scammer. Oh, so they're similar. They're very similar.

[Amy]

Yeah. Well, and it makes me think of even Tony Robbins backstory, which I know this isn't a deep dive on him, and I don't know the full thing, but in Mel's first line of her bio sentence, like, Tony's story is this whole, you know, grew up very poor single mom. Like, he. He feeds a lot of people now, like, millions, maybe even, dare I say billions. I feel like he's put out an astronomical number of, like, meals that he has provided for people. And, you know, it goes back to this story of how he was helped as a child. And then I'm like, I hope he was. I'm sure he was, but it seems like a lot of people follow him. I once thought about going to one of his conferences, but I would have to pay A lot of money to go and then have him yell at me to walk on coal. But I think that'd be cool.

[Kat]

I feel like I just went so many places with you. I feel like also though, the rags to riches is so like, I'm drawn to that. Like, again, if they can do it, we can do it. So I guess we can add that to Oprah. Oh, yeah, Oprah. There's some cracks in Oprah story too.

[Amy]

Don't tell me. I don't want to know.

[Kat]

Crow cat's like, maybe later we could do.

[Amy]

We could do an Oprah deep dive. But she's someone that definitely did not have privilege. That is for sure.

[Kat]

Yes. Yeah, I think Mal had a lot more privilege than Oprah did. You can say that.

[Amy]

Well, yeah. I mean, Mel is never going to get fat.

[Kat]

She runs and she eats healthy.

[Amy]

I can't believe she said that. And I know I derailed us with the whole Tony Robbins thing, but it just made me think of people that I am drawn to at times because of their story and then their charismatic behavior and that I would pay money to go to one of their events because I think it would be cool and the energy there would be awesome.

[Kat]

Like a Rachel Hollis conference before her downfall.

[Amy]

Yeah, I'm sure that those were really exciting and fun. And fun. And like you felt like this community and connection. So that's why I think it's important that I particularly pay attention to these signs or these however many. What do you. What do you have questions. Questions that we need to ask?

[Kat]

Yeah. Okay, so five questions. Keep it short and simple. One, is it too good to be true? If it's all encompassing, you might want to do a little bit more digging. Two, do their actions match their words? I mean, are they practicing what they're preaching?

[Amy]

And this is how we can know if we can trust somebody. These are the questions we're going to ask ourselves. Okay. Is it too good to be true? Do their actions match their words?

[Kat]

Three, how do they handle critique and accountability?

[Amy]

So you have to really, like dive deep into that if you don't have a relationship with this person. Because like, even for seeing how Mel handled some critique, we had to go listen to all these other.

[Kat]

Yeah, but those cards.

[Amy]

But maybe it would. Maybe once you see it, you may even notice it in her own. Everywhere. Okay.

[Kat]

I think that's the other thing is I think you're experiencing, once you, the veil is lifted, you see it everywhere because those are now the lenses that you're looking through versus the rose colored glasses that, like, she can do no wrong. And she's so nice and she wants to help us. She's a businesswoman and she wants you to buy her book.

[Amy]

And she's a genius.

[Kat]

Yeah, she's pretty smart. Number four, do they show humility or just authority? This one is tricky because I think Mel shows her humility in a inauthentic way, but really she wants to. She wants. She wants to feel like she's just like us, but in other areas, she wants us to not be able to relate to her.

[Amy]

Yeah, it's manufactured.

[Kat]

Sure.

[Amy]

Humility, It's a bummer.

[Kat]

And then the last one, number five, what do they gain from your trust? Are they guiding, helping, or just selling? So are they guiding you? Are they helping you? Are they just selling a product? And I think that's one that you can go back to. What we talked about in the beginning is in with marketing, like, they're always supposed to leave you wanting one more thing. And if they're solving this problem, to create this problem to then solve this other problem for you, if you continue to need, need, need, there's a difference in wanting. Like, I want to listen to certain podcasts, I want to read certain authors books. They're fun, they're entertaining. I gained something from them, but I don't feel tied to them. Like, if they stopped their podcast, I would die. If they never wrote another book, I don't know what I would do. Like, I can't go to anybody else for that type of help, guidance or entertainment. That's, I think, where you're like, well.

[Amy]

And I'm thinking about you as a therapist and I would think that your goal would be eventually for your client to spread their wings and do whatever. I mean, therapy can be on and off. It doesn't mean, like, if you have a client that's coming in and just constantly needing you all the time, you may wonder. I'm not doing my job. Yeah.

[Kat]

And I think there's again, a difference in therapy where there's. Yeah. The goal because.

[Amy]

Because you have a living to make too. And I think helpers need to make money. So I guess I'm trying to also have some discernment around. How can you tell if a helper who also is trying to make a living is just selling because like, you, you could maybe. I'm sure there are some therapists actually that do it or guides in whatever way that just keep what they don't care if their client gets any help. They just, long as they're coming and writing A check.

[Kat]

Yeah, that definitely exists. I think there's also in therapy, a difference in. Because a lot of times I'll see clients and I might see them every week for two years and then they'll go to every other week and then they'll go to once a month and then randomly they'll come back and they're like, I have this issue, can I come back for weekly sessions? And it shifts. There's also clients that just like going to weekly therapy and. But they know that they don't need to come. It's. They're actively making that choice. And I think that's the difference of like that feeling of, well, if you go on vacation, what will I do? Versus oh, okay, I'll just see you next week. But I'll be looking forward to it. You know, like our job. Yes. Is to work ourselves out of a job, if that makes sense.

[Amy]

Yeah. But lucky for you, there's always going to be messed up, broken people because.

[Kat]

We have to pick up the pieces of Mel Robbins. So I hope that was both entertaining and fun and I hope it helps people, again have their own discernment and so then they can be in charge. Like, I like having agency over what I pay, like what I buy, what I pay attention to, what I listen.

[Amy]

To, and you know, what I give my time to. Yeah, yeah. Because if I'm going to be watching somebody's videos or reading their books. Yeah. And then trusting your gut and listening to it, like, when I knew, it's like, wait, why am I reading this? I have to put this down and I have zero interest in picking back up. Which was shocking to me because I was really excited to read it. But anyway, let them, let us. If people didn't like this episode, let them.

[Kat]

If people don't like us, let them.

[Amy]

Let them. If you wanna.

[Kat]

No feedback here. Just kidding. We actually love.

[Amy]

If you want to leave a bad review, don't just email us. I think you and I both, we've said this before, we're open to feedback and critique, whatever you want to send our way. I think it would be helpful if you just send it to us so we can work through it. Like, does it have to be on a public platform?

[Kat]

You sound like Mel Robbins.

[Amy]

No, I don't think Mel would even say that. I. I don't know. I think no, Mel would be like, send this episode to everybody in your family that needs to hear their lives. It's going to change their lives, which I've admitted to even in some of our titles at Times like, oh, and it's not just Mel, there's tons of podcasters that do it that kind of just hook you with the title of like, you need to do this every day or you're going to die. And I'm like, okay, yeah, we're going to give that a go. And we've tried that and we haven't tried that. Not that exact same as there's a little hyperbole there. But I just wanted to put emphasis on that. We've given that a go and it didn't feel authentic to us. Like even we were just starting the rebrand, which has only been a few months now. Like, there are some titles in there where we were playing around with that and then I was like, eh, well.

[Kat]

You know, ethical marketing, I think, is what you have to think about. Like, there's. You have to be able to market yourself. We, again, we live in a capitalist society, so we do need to like, make money and we're self employed or I am so like, oh, no, I.

[Amy]

Don'T know about you, but I'm. I'm unemployed and on the brink of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy. But I'm working on something. I'll let you know when I have it all figured out, put together and I'll sell it to you.

[Kat]

But I think that that is something that you can do. But as you see with other creators and other helpers, you come to a point. I've had this in my own business. If, like, you come to a point where you can choose making money or you can choose the ethics of what you're doing, and sometimes that decision is really hard. And sometimes you make the wrong one and sometimes you make the right one. People like Brene Brown, we've talked about her a lot. Not today, but in conversations. Not everybody likes her. I love her. But there's a way that she does what she does that keeps her from reaching the masses that some other people have reached. And I think part of that is her tie to what she really believes and what she really wants. And that doesn't sell as well. So I think that's. We're sacrificing. Yeah. If we do these things, we might get viral faster and more people listen to our podcast and we'll make more money. Sure. But is that worth having to do it that way? Or do we rather have the slow burn but then we feel okay about it?

[Amy]

Yeah, slow burn.

[Kat]

We're slow burning.

[Amy]

So. No. I love our community. I mean, I know you do too, but I'm just saying I don't think either one of us also is chasing.

[Kat]

I also, like, don't.

[Amy]

I don't think we wake up every day of, like, I think we want people to download or listen, but that's not my number one goal in life. Like, I think there are other things.

[Kat]

I don't want to be that big. That's terrifying to me. Like, I don't like. I like. I like walking down the street, nobody knowing who I am.

[Amy]

And maybe for other people, it would be the same way. I don't know. I can't see speak for them. But I think for you and I, if our careers would change or we went a totally different trajectory, like, we would be okay. And some people, it's like, no, this is exactly what I want to do. And now, don't get me wrong, I would love for us to do some live shows again. Because when I do those and I get on stage, I'm like, I was born for this. That's how I feel when I walk out on stage. Like, I love it. I think it's just connecting with people and, like, seeing them there. But it doesn't have to be, you know, thousands of people. It could be 300 people in a room, and we've done that before. 600 people in a room, and it still feels intimate. And I think it's just connecting with our people. So, anyway, I do have that feeling of, like, I was born for this. And I also could move to Montana and make protein bars out of my kitchen, you know, and not get on social media again and never be in front of a microphone again. And I would be okay. We just need to do the occasional live show so I could get on stage.

[Kat]

You feel the brush? Okay, well, if you guys have feedback or questions or thoughts that you had while you listen to this episode, you can send them to us. Hey there. At feeling things podcast.com you can also send us questions for couch talks where we answer your questions on Wednesdays. You can.

[Amy]

Thursdays.

[Kat]

It is Thursdays. Thank you. You can write and review us and watch us on YouTube.

[Amy]

Yeah. Five stars only. Thanks. Just kidding.

[Kat]

Only rate us if you're gonna give us five stars. If not, just keep going.

[Amy]

No, just email us. That was my whole point is, like, give us your criticism. But does it have to be public? But I think some people thrive off of, like, three stars. Four and a half.

[Kat]

They thrive off of giving that. Oh, they get a one star. Yeah.

[Amy]

Amy sucks. But hey, you know what? Let them. Let.

[Kat]

And with that being said, have the day.

[Amy]

You need to have should we do a book? Have the day you need to have a whole book on it.

[Kat]

That sounds like a children's book.

[Amy]

No, no.

[Kat]

Don't you think?

[Amy]

I think we could market it. If we market it right. Have the day you need to have.

[Kat]

It'll save your. It will change your life. And in seven words. Where was her better than two words?

[Amy]

I was trying to scroll back to wherever. The definition of okay, how many words was it?

[Kat]

Seven.

[Amy]

Seven simple words. Have the day you need to have will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you.

[Kat]

That actually sounds pretty good.

[Amy]

Okay, bye bye.

[Unknown]

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