BOBBYCAST - Mariana van Zeller on Gaining Cartel Trust, Scammers & US Drug Crisis

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bobbycast – Mariana van Zeller on Gaining Cartel Trust, Scammers & US Drug Crisis

Date: February 27, 2026
Host: Bobby Bones
Guest: Mariana van Zeller
Podcast: The Bobby Bones Show / Bobbycast
Episode Focus: Gaining access to criminal underworlds (cartels, scammers), the U.S. drug crisis, and humanizing criminal stories.

---

Episode Overview

This episode features investigative journalist Mariana van Zeller, acclaimed for her work on Trafficked (Nat Geo) and the podcast The Hidden Third. Bobby and Mariana discuss the dangers and challenges of entering cartel territory, the unsuspected reach of criminal organizations in the U.S., the roots and realities of the opioid crisis, the psychology and human side of criminals, and the pervasiveness of scams. The conversation is candid, deeply personal at times, and packed with ground-level insight from Mariana’s reporting.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gaining the Trust of Cartels and Reporting from Dangerous Worlds

• Building Trust:

  • Mariana explains that access requires months or years of groundwork, building up trust with individuals in organizations like the Sinaloa cartel.
  • "You just don't show up in Sinaloa and knock on a door... It takes us months, years of connections and trying to build trust..." (07:00)

• Dangerous Situations:

  • She recounts tense moments in the field, such as being caught in the crossfire between the Sinaloa cartel and the Mexican marines, involving helicopter chases.
  • "One of the guys looks and says, 'the Marines are coming.' ... They start running... We ran after them with all our gear." (07:41–09:06)

• Cartel Life as Normalcy:

  • What seems “crazy” and dangerous to outsiders is just daily life for cartel members.
  • "For us to be able to have the privilege...that's not something you get access to all the time. To be able to be on the ground and see what a day inside the Sinaloa cartel looks like is, I think, really powerful." (09:19)

2. Cartel Presence in the United States

• Beyond Big Cities:

  • Mariana details how cartels operate extensively in small-town America, dispelling the myth that their activity is limited to big coastal cities.
  • "There's an enormous presence of the cartel here...even more than the big cities, they prefer small towns because there's less law enforcement." (10:00–11:27)

• American Participation:

  • Many cartel associates are American-born; one interviewee, “El Gringo,” didn’t speak Spanish nor had been to Mexico, but acted as a prime distributor.
  • "He doesn't even speak a word of Spanish... he was a really good distributor." (11:30)

• Drug Distribution Tactics:

  • Cartels use creative smuggling, including exploiting airline baggage rules and employing people (often women/strippers) as mules.
  • "He realized the best way to do this was through Delta Airlines, particularly Delta because they have a really good weight fee..." (12:50)

• Corruption:

  • The high volume of drugs trafficked is only possible through "enormous level of corruption" in U.S. law enforcement at all levels.
  • "This was something corroborated...with law enforcement agents themselves, who said it is known this is happening." (14:24)

3. The Psychology and Morality of Cartel Members

• Not 'Bad Guys' in Their Eyes:

  • Cartel members often see themselves as opportunists or businesspeople in a harsh environment; many inherited their roles through family.
  • "The majority of people in the cartel in Mexico grew up with their family members being part of the cartel...You see yourself—this is the family business." (15:16)

• Justifying Their Actions:

  • When confronted about the harm caused by drugs, many place responsibility on demand from the U.S., comparing it to American issues like fast food or pharma.
  • "Most say, 'They are doing it because they want to. If it weren't me, someone else would do it, so at least I'm providing for my family.'" (16:16)

4. Origins and Evolution of the U.S. Drug Crisis

• Opioid Crisis Origins:

  • Mariana and Bobby underscore that the opioid crisis began with U.S. pharmaceutical companies and created the market that cartels exploit.
  • "It's a crisis that started in America. It was made in the USA by pharmaceutical companies." (17:00)

• Trends in Drug Waves:

  • Discussion of transition from prescription opioids to heroin, to fentanyl, and now to 'tranq dope' (when fentanyl is cut with xylazine, an animal tranquilizer), leading to devastating effects such as addiction and severe wounds in users.
  • "...the fourth wave...is fentanyl mixed with a tranquilizer, xylazine...people with massive wounds, like leprosy." (18:52)

• Public Health vs. War on Drugs:

  • Mariana is firm that treating the crisis as a public health issue (not as a war/policing question) is the only effective way forward.
  • "Trying to fight a public health crisis with law enforcement and the military is not the solution." (18:02)

5. Personal Impact and Larger Societal Issues

• Bobby’s Story:

  • Bobby shares his family’s experience with addiction, noting how deprivation and lack of opportunity drive drug use.
  • "When there are no other options for happiness at all...you alleviate the pain." (20:12)

• Cycle of Poverty and Addiction:

  • Both emphasize that lack of investment in basic needs (food, education, healthcare) perpetuates the crisis.
  • "It's towns that have no resources, folks that have no resources... Nobody wants to go and be an opioid addict." (20:52)

6. The Human Side of Criminality

• Innate Evil?

  • Mariana rarely sees “evil”—most people in crime are shaped by environment and circumstance, not inherent malice.
  • "No one is born wanting to be a criminal...circumstance, lack of opportunity, lack of jobs..." (32:55)

• Memorable Stories:

  • Share stories like the Peruvian teenage cocaine courier, doing the work in hopes of affording college to become a dentist.
  • "He said...this is the only job opportunity, so I could save money to go to college. He wanted to be a dentist—to make people smile." (35:29)

7. Scammers and Our Vulnerability

• Scamming as Survival:

  • Many scammers rationalize their actions by believing U.S. victims are rich; scams are a way out of poverty or crises for them.
  • "'God ain't provided, you know, so I'm going to be the one who has to provide for my family.'" (36:48)

• Modern Pervasiveness:

  • Scams are increasingly sophisticated and target every facet of American life: "Every part of an American’s life is now scammable." (44:30)

• Personal Anecdotes:

  • Bobby recounts nearly being scammed over beef jerky, and Mariana describes agreeing to fall for scams for a Nat Geo project—demonstrating just how easy it is to be fooled.
  • "They built a beef jerky site that looked exactly like the original... all my information, and they called me with all my information." (42:34)

8. Trauma and Emotional Impact

• PTSD and Personal Safety:

  • Bobby discusses PTSD from threats and violence as a public figure and his reluctance to risk substances due to family history of addiction.

• Covering Epstein’s Survivors:

  • Interviewing survivors of Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes is especially fraught and emotional. Mariana notes the courage it takes for survivors to speak.
  • "It was interesting...a lot of victims, it's really hard for them to accept and admit it..." (50:33)

• Conspiracies and Cover-Ups:

  • Skepticism surrounds Epstein-related deaths, and public frustration about powerful networks avoiding accountability.
  • "It was used as a tool...the importance is to reveal...this was the structure that was in place, all these people were protecting each other..." (52:52)

9. Impact of Parenthood

• More Emotional Connection:
  • Since becoming a parent, Mariana finds greater empathy for the people she interviews, especially mothers.
  • "What it made me is much more emotional...there's nothing stronger...than a mother fighting for their child." (48:59)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You just don't show up in Sinaloa and knock on a door... It takes us months, years of connections and trying to build trust..."
  – Mariana van Zeller (07:00)

• "[Cartel life] is just a day. For us it's an event worth documenting, for them it's just a Tuesday."
  – Bobby Bones / Mariana van Zeller (09:08–09:19)

• "There's an enormous presence of the cartel here...even more than the big cities, they prefer small towns because there's less law enforcement."
  – Mariana van Zeller (10:00–11:27)

• "This was something corroborated not only with cartel people that I spoke to, but also with law enforcement agents themselves."
  – Mariana van Zeller (14:24)

• "Trying to fight a public health crisis with law enforcement and the military is not the solution."
  – Mariana van Zeller (18:02)

• "If it wasn't me doing it, somebody else would ship it. So at least I'm the one making money and providing for my family."
  – Quoted cartel associate via Mariana van Zeller (16:16)

• "No one is born wanting to be a criminal...circumstance, lack of opportunity..."
  – Mariana van Zeller (32:55)

• "Every part of an American's life is now scammable, right?"
  – Mariana van Zeller (44:30)

• "He said...this is the only job opportunity, so I could save money to go to college. He wanted to be a dentist—to make people smile."
  – Mariana van Zeller recounting a Peruvian drug courier's story (35:29)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:20 — Mariana Introduction & Trafficked overview
• 05:24 — Fear and safety reporting with the cartel
• 07:41 — Helicopter chase and hiding with the Sinaloa cartel
• 09:48 — Cartel activity in small-town America
• 10:06 — American citizens in cartel work (‘El Gringo’ story)
• 12:50 — Drug smuggling tactics and airline exploits
• 14:24 — Corruption in U.S. law enforcement
• 15:16 — Cartel members' morality and self-justification
• 17:00 — Origins of the U.S. opioid crisis
• 18:52 — Tranq dope: the latest drug crisis evolution
• 20:09 — Personal stories: addiction in small-town America
• 32:55 — Is there such a thing as innate evil?
• 35:29 — Human stories: the Peruvian drug courier
• 36:48 — Scam psychology and rationalization
• 42:34 — Bobby’s personal scam story
• 50:33 — Interviewing Jeffrey Epstein survivors
• 53:46 — Epstein case: structure, conspiracy, and the need for truth

---

Tone, Style, and Themes

The conversation is direct, inquisitive, and humanizing, with Bobby openly admitting what he doesn’t know and Mariana demystifying tough topics with empathy and realism. The tone is both sobering and engaging, occasionally lightened by humor and personal stories.

---

Listener Value

This summary gives a full view of the episode's sweeping themes: the deep roots and human impact of crime and addiction, the sophistication and normalcy of underground worlds, and the complexity of addressing these issues in American society. Listeners will come away with grounded, personal, and expert perspectives on issues usually represented as faceless headlines.

---

Transcript

[Jill Winterstein]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.

[Amanda Knox]

When someone you love is facing cancer, you want to do more than send a card or flowers that will wilt in a week. You want to actually help. That's where the balm box comes in. Our care packages are built from research with over 500 cancer patients and caregivers packed with items people actually use during treatment. Think soothing, practical. Think thank goodness I have this kind of relief for you. It's not just a gift. It's a way to show up in a moment where words fall short for them. It's comfort, calm, and a reminder they're not alone. From chemo friendly boxes to mastectomy recovery kits, even options for men, we've made it simple to give something that's elegant, premium, and genuinely useful. And yes, domestic shipping's always free on orders over $50, because making someone feel cared for shouldn't be complicated. So skip the empty get well soon. Send real help, real comfort, and maybe even a laugh. Visit thebalmbox.com that's T-H E B A L M B O X.com Balm like healing and care. The balm Box because cancer patients don't need bouquets and brownies. They need balm.

[Jill Winterstein]

Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change. Dance with the breakdowns.

[Jill Winterstein]

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So I'm, like, delusionally proud of my chart.

[Jill Winterstein]

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple PODC, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Amanda Knox]

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, the Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Evidence has been made to fit.

[Bobby Bones]

The moment you look at the whole

[Mariana Van Zeller]

picture, the case collapsed.

[Amanda Knox]

What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh, my God.

[Jill Winterstein]

I think she might be innocent.

[Amanda Knox]

Listen to Doubt the Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your PODC casts.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's the Bachelor.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him.

[Bobby Bones]

If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral.

[Bobby Bones]

The dating contract.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you.

[Bobby Bones]

This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It wasn't safe for us to leave Sinaloa cartel territory, so we actually stayed with them until that night and spent a day filming them while they did cocaine and showed us their cache of guns.

[Bobby Bones]

Hey, everybody, Bobby Bones here. My next guest is really one of the most legit people I've ever met. It's Mariana Van Zeller. Just some of her accolades. She's an Emmy and a Peabody award winning investigative journalist. She has gone and done it all. Like we talk about the cartel, where she was with the cartel, but she hosted a show called Trafficked on Nat Geo and it was everything from cartel to black market to it's crazy. You should go and watch those if you can because they're so good. She has a podcast that I feel like is a version of that as well, just a little more long form. It's called the Hidden Third and she sits down with people. I'm talking smugglers, hackers, survivors, whistleblowers, but just about her. She speaks five languages, she rides motorcycles. I am constantly in fear for her life and she is not, which we talk about. But she's really one of the coolest people that I know. I think you're going to love this.

[Amanda Knox]

She.

[Bobby Bones]

Here she is. Mariana Van Zeller. I've been super excited to do this one, but I want to say ahead of time, I'm going to ask questions that seem of probably lesser intelligence and it's not on purpose. Like, I'm not asking these questions to be a dumb guy. I think in some of these worlds that you live in, I am a dumb guy. So I'm not being funny.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I think most people are more ignorant about the worlds that I. Because, you know, it is the Hidden Third, right? It's worlds that people don't usually know much about, but that affects all of us. So there are no dumb questions.

[Bobby Bones]

You don't know yet. I haven't got there. So between the podcast and between Traffic and I was exposed to you probably halfway through your run of traffic and then I've watched many on. Because I had a show on Nat Geo. Didn't last as long. But you would follow my show sometimes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And so I would go, man, this woman's going to die. Like, I would watch it. Kind of like watch a NASCAR race to see if there are wrecks, and I'd be like, she's going to get God, this. This episode for sure. You never died.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I never died. I'm still here.

[Bobby Bones]

Did you ever feel like you might in any of these situ. Like you genuinely had fear?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I mean, not like that. I. I don't. If I went to do my job thinking that there was an actual chance that I would die, I would be. It would be impossible for me to do it, so it wouldn't be that rational. But there were many moments. So in many ways, I always think that I'm going to be able to. Or else no story is worth a life, right? So I wouldn't be doing it if I actually thought there was a chance that me or any of my team would get harmed. But there are many times during filming where, you know, shit hits the fan and then things get really scary because

[Bobby Bones]

you're not with the most trustworthy folks that are having to make a lot of tough decisions.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I am not. But we spend months, sometimes even years trying to get people to talk to us. So once we're inside that group. So exam, for example, the Sinaloa cartel, right? You just don't show up in Sinaloa and knock on a door or show up at the, you know, where we know the. The fentanyl labs are, and knock on the door and say, hey, we want to film this. It takes us months, years of connections and trying to build trust and trying to get them to believe us and trust us, and only then can we go inside. And so once that happens, there is a certain level of protection. But when I talk about shit hitting the fan is that you can be with the Sinalo cartel and sort of be protected by them. But I've been in many situations where the marines show up or they're close by, and then sort of full panic ensues, and you have to make a quick decision of what do you do? Do you stay here? Do you follow them? I'll give you an example. We were doing a story about gun trafficking, how American guns are ending up in Mexico and being used for the violence that's happening down there. And we were with the Sinalo cartel. We were actually with a bunch of sicarios, with gunmen. And they were showing us how they use the American. The guns and how they train. They were training. They were showing us they were shooting at watermelons. And the whole time they have walkie talkies with them always. And they can hear the chatter. And even if you ask for sound reasons, can you turn off their walkie talkie Rockies? Absolutely not. Because they need to know if the enemy is coming or the Mexican military will show up. The communication has to be on all the time. And so I start hearing that the chatter was getting louder and louder. And at one point, one of the guys looks and says, the Marines are coming. And the Marines are sort of the bad guys in the military. That's the ones that they're really afraid. And they're known to shoot first and ask questions last.

[Bobby Bones]

The Marines in Mexico.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

In Mexico.

[Bobby Bones]

Mexican Marines.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Mexican Marines. Yes, Mexican Marines. So. So they start running. We were in the middle of the mountains, but sort of in an open area with no roads. It was just dirt roads to get there. And they ran to their cars. And then it was us running after them with all our gear, you know, carrying big cameras and tripods and whatever lights and whatnot. And we get there and we're seeing they get into their car and disappear, and we're stuck in this situation. What do we do? Do we get in our car and go after them? And if the Marines start shooting from the helicopters, they're going to think that we are part of.

[Bobby Bones]

From the helicopter.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, they were coming in helicopters, so

[Bobby Bones]

the threat was from.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

From a helicopter. Yeah, sorry, I forgot to mention that part. And. And so do we follow them? And then they will maybe think if they start shooting at them, they'll certainly start shooting at us too. Or do we stay behind and sort of hide under a tree, which will be really suspicious, too. And then they could start shooting at us anyway. So we just thought, okay, they're probably more equipped and more prepared to know at this point. So we follow them out of there. In the end, we were safe. And we ended up spending the whole. It wasn't safe for us to leave Sinaloa cartel territory. So we actually stayed with them until that night and spent a day filming them while they did cocaine and showed us their cache of guns. And it was a crazy day.

[Bobby Bones]

And to them, that's like a Tuesday, right?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes, that is very much like a Tuesday.

[Bobby Bones]

To us, especially to me, but to you, that you're going down because this is an event, this is something that you're documenting that's worth documenting. Yes, but to them it's just a day.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, it is just a day. And for us to be able to have the privilege or the opportunity to show that, you know, that's not something that you get access to all the time. And so to be able to be on the ground and see what a day inside the Sinalo cartel looks like is, I think, really powerful and really demonstrative of one of the biggest threats to national security, which is in many ways the production of drugs that comes from groups like the Sinalo Cartel.

[Bobby Bones]

How active or how interested are cartels in middle Midwest America? Because I think of California and obviously the big cities.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

But I live in Nashville.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's such a good question.

[Bobby Bones]

See, are they there?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Great question.

[Bobby Bones]

I feel like that's a dumb question because I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's not a dumb question at all. So we did a story for the last season of Traffic, season five, called Cartel usa. Because the more I reported on the cartel, the more I realized that first, there's an enormous presence of the cartel here, but also that it's not exactly what you expect. So I started realizing that there was a lot more presence of the cartel in small town America than most people know. We think of cartel, we think of drug distribution, we think la, New York, Chicago, big cities. And through my reporting I started realizing, wait, this is not exactly the case. And also we think the cartel and we think Mexicans living here. Right. But I started realizing that was also not just that the case, that there were actual American citizens working and collaborating and for the cartel and part of the cartel. So we did that story. And yeah, one of the biggest revelations was we spent a lot of time with the cartel in small town America. In fact, the episode starts with a case in Georgia, in a small town in Georgia was actually sort of in the woods where there was a woman who was killed by a member of a cartel. And it started a massive investigation and they realized again that there was a massive presence of the cartel. And then in fact, they prefer small towns because there's less law enforcement, so there's less eyes on them and they're able to sort of do their work distribution and selling the drugs much, much easier.

[Bobby Bones]

So are there generic white dudes like me that are in the cartel in America?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes. So one of the people we interviewed, that was my favorite interview, one of my favorite interviews ever on Traffik was a guy that we. Del Gringo, because he was a gringo.

[Bobby Bones]

I get called that by all my Mexican friends because I lived in Texas for a long time. I know that. I was like, yes, that's. That's me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes. Yeah, we thought it was a Brilliant name because he doesn't even speak a word of it, of Spanish. And I don't even think he's been to Mexico. But he had connections with the cartel. He was involved in the drug business and then they realized he was a really good distributor. But here's what was amazing when I asked him. So I was how do you distribute your drugs? Because he would get massive amounts of fentanyl, meth, cocaine, whatever it was that the cartel had and wanted him to distribute. It's not as if he can ask, I want 10 kilos of cocaine, ship it to me. It's whatever the cartel decides. It's what he's going to be shipped. And once he has it, he has to figure out how to, you know, distribute across the US and to his different buyers all over a lot of them in small town America. And, and then he decided, he realized that the best way to do this was through Delta Airlines, was actually commercial airlines, particularly Delta because they have a really good weight fee. What do you luggage, what's it called, the luggage baggage fee, which you can get like £70 for, for free or something like that. So, so. And that's how he distributes most of his drugs. Isn't it mind blowing?

[Bobby Bones]

How do they not notice what's going through? Do they cover it in something that doesn't allow the machines to see through? Are they scientific? Are they so scientifically advanced?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I don't think the machines notice. I do think they're very scientifically, not scientifically advanced, but they are very smart. I once filmed in a fentanyl being wrapped up and hidden inside in a way that was not detectable on the border crossing and that was mind blowing. How they use tin foil so it's not detected by the machines. How they use like softener and coffee powder so it's not detected by the dogs. And it was all this way that they can come across and I think they possibly use. I didn't actually see them hiding the drugs in the case of El Gringo, but he says what he does is that he uses women. A lot of times it's women carrying the bags and a lot of times it's strippers.

[Bobby Bones]

Actually I had a friend that was an Olympic athlete and what this reminds me of is with steroids or any performance enhancing drugs, I should say, but I think it's easy to say steroids that he would say if you got caught using, you're as dumb as a rock. Because the users were so far ahead of how they were trying to find the people using that they were months ahead. So if any trace of anything was found, you just didn't follow easy protocol to follow.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

That the people that would get busted, he would be shocked. He would go, either they were so sloppy or that wasn't what it is. It was a trace of something else that was confused. And a bit. It sounds like that where they know how they're searching, they're ahead of it a bit, 100%. So they're able to beat it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And we are not even talking about corruption, where a lot of times what happens. And this was instrumental in our whole reporting for Cartel usa. I think it was the sort of scariest learning. Even more than the fact that there are Americans operating within the cartel and the fact that they're operating in small town America was realizing the extent of corruption that exists. You would not have the level of drugs in this country, distribution of drugs in this country, even if they come from Mexico, without enormous level of corruption. Everything from small town police offices and sheriff departments to federal agencies. And this was something that was corroborated not only with cartel people that I spoke to, but also with law enforcement agencies, agents themselves, who said it is known this is happening.

[Bobby Bones]

Do you feel like people in the cartel see themselves as bad guys or they're just a part of society in Mexico?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's another really great question. I don't think. I think they see themselves as opportunists. I think that the majority of the people in Mexico, not here, but the majority of people in the cartel in Mexico grew up with their family members being part of the cartel. Trust is really important in a system where you don't have a justice Department. Right. You can't go to court court if, if your partner wrongs you or if somebody steals drugs or money from you. So trust is essential. So it's very much a family oriented business and it's all about, you know. Yeah. Trust. And, and so, you know, if you grew up in. Your dad is in the cartel, your grandfather is part of the cartel, you don't see yourself as the bad guy. You see yourself. This is the business, this is the family business. And we're. And the. What's wrong with America? There's all these people there that want our drugs. So we're just an advantage.

[Bobby Bones]

I don't think we're the bad guy, the dumb guy. Since we.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I think we're more the, the. We're the consumers. We're actually the cash cow. Right.

[Bobby Bones]

The cash cow to me is like somebody who is pretty dumb and they're just willing to spend their money on something.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, again and again, when I ask that question, which is a lot of times I want to know why they do what they do. But most importantly, I also want to do ask them the correct questions. Do you feel bad for doing this? Do you realize that there's thousands of Americans that are dying every year from the products that you were shipping north? And again and again, the question I get is, I mean, not really. They are doing it because they want to. And if it weren't me doing it, somebody else would ship it. So at least I'm the one making money and providing for my family.

[Bobby Bones]

If it were me and I were down there and you asked me that question, I would go look at big pharma or look at fast food or look at sugar or look at. Yeah, I mean, that would be my answer. Because all that seems like that's just part of American culture. We just eat bad and get fat or we just have a bunch of sugar or we.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And even more interesting than that, I think, is the idea that actually the opiate crisis in particular, you know, fentanyl has been the biggest cash co and heroin before that for the cartel. And it's enormously responsible for not only the deaths in America, but also the violence and the growth of the cartels in Mexico and other countries in Latin America. But it's a crisis that started in America. It was made in the USA by pharmaceutical companies. So we started it and we created this sort of enormous consumer market for the cartel to then exploit.

[Bobby Bones]

My last cartel question. Do you think we would ever go down and try to fight them for any reason? There's been talk recently of are we going to deploy troops into Mexico to fight the cartel? Because now they're making a big deal about, you know, with Venezuela. They're bombing the drug boats. There's no fentanyl. Those Venezuelan drug boats, like, there wasn't. And some of those drug boats, they weren't even drug boats. They're just people in the water with families that fish.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And so now the talk has been, well, we might go into Mexico and fight the cartel. Would that ever happen?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I don't think it's a smart strategy. I think that we're trying to. We've been. The war on drugs has existed for decades. It hasn't done anything, no dent. I mean, billions and billions of dollars spent and we are losing more people to drugs nowadays than ever. I think that we are. This is a public health crisis that we're seeing in the United States. One of the episodes we did also in this last season was about tranq dope, which is the fourth wave of the opiate crisis. So it started with prescription pills like oxy cotton. It moved to heroin when people couldn't find their prescription pills, as you know. And then it moved to fentanyl. And now we're seeing the fourth wave, which is fentanyl being mixed with a tranquilizer, an animal tranquilizer called Xylazine. And what's happening, I'm sure you've seen the videos in places like Kensington and Philadelphia, where we filmed at. Where you see the zombies. Right. People that are bent over.

[Bobby Bones]

They're bent over. Yeah. Walking the streets bent over.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, exactly. So we spent a lot of time there reporting and filming people and speaking and talking to these folks. And they have massive wounds, like, it looks like leprosy. Like, open wound with it is just the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. And this is caused by tranq dope. And so to answer your question, which was, do I think that, oh, so this is a public health crisis. Right. It's not. So trying to fight a public health crisis with law enforcement and the military is not the solution. What we have to really understand is what is happening in the United States. Why are there so many people out on the streets living in these conditions? If it was actual leprosy, we would never allow this to happen. Right. Was an actual illness that you had. And you'd see Americans out on the streets passing out, you would figure out a way to help them. In this case, we're just, you know, massive amounts of home homeless population exploding. We're just abandoning this, you know, millions of Americans, essentially, and. And not really not figuring out a solution to actually help them. Because once you curtail demand, you're going to have an impact on the supply.

[Bobby Bones]

I come from a small town of 700 people, and my town and towns around it have dealt with the opioid crisis. That it's been a tremendous problem.

[Jill Winterstein]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And it got worse as pills got easier to get.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And where there is an investment in education and. And people would ask me, like, why do people get on drugs? Just from me being around it, it's like, well, when there are no other options for happiness at all and something can actually alleviate the pain, and there's no way out, you alleviate the pain.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And when I look at ways to fix it, because I've flirted with the idea of running for office, but my. My issues are. Are so not sexy. It's if people can't eat and if people aren't educated, you're going to see this pattern continue. Because at the root of all of it, that's what it is.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's exactly it.

[Bobby Bones]

And, and it's, it's towns that have no resources, it's folks that have no resources, that, that their last resort is drugs. It's not like people want to go and be an opioid addict. Nobody wants, nobody raises their hand and says, I'll be an opioid addict. And so, but this country, for as rich as we are, we don't invest in that. Which is the craziest thing to me just as a citizen, as somebody who's come up from being really, really poor to now I'm pretty rich. And to be able to see it from now as to how I get protected, but people are just left alone, that abandoned. Yes. Yeah, it's really sad.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It really is. And I think you should run for office because I think that is what is wrong with America right now. That is.

[Bobby Bones]

But when I say I want to make sure kids eat as my number one issue so the kids can be educated, and that's very much an evolutionary more than a revolutionary. And there's a massive difference. And it's almost like you have to approach them both at the same time and you've got a quick fix and band Aid things so people can actually feel movement while you're also building the long term infrastructure. Because if the fundamental, the setting of that takes forever, much less the growth. So if you can provide people food, you can provide people slight leisure. Slight leisure and access to education. You're not going to fix everybody mental health care. Yeah, but those things aren't sexy, especially in a land of getting elected and getting likes and getting shares. Because you're polarizing.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

That's just not the environment. I haven't found it to be conducive of anyone actually wanting to make a change or the ability given to them unless they're yelling things and also trying to fix things secretly. And that's such a hard mix.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, that's what's so sad with our political system right now. And that's why we can't figure out how to actually find solutions instead of yelling at each other. It's really, anytime I talk about anything, it becomes political. Nowadays it's very a, you know, whatever it is, whether I talk even about addiction, even when I talk, when I go on, when I talk about addiction, even on my own podcast, it's immediately, what are you talking about addicts are just addicts because they want to or, you know, it's. Everything suddenly is polarized. I. And there's. Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Where I have trouble with that is. Well, I grew up in it. My mom had me at 16. She got pregnant at 15. So we were. She was already poor. And you have a kid at 16 years old and you're already poor. There's really very few avenues out of that. And she ended up dying in her 40s from addiction. A lot of meth made right there. Like, I'd see it. And. And there was no. She chose to go to rehab many times. She didn't choose to die. But I got. I had the understanding of. Her choice was to not feel terrible all the time. And her only way to alleviate any of that pain was through drugs.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Yeah. And that is one of the ways that people get addicted to drugs. The other is actually just going to the doctor, just getting surgery, as we

[Bobby Bones]

know, because they will prescribe them like crazy. Yeah. There's a. A book that I reference a lot. It's Gabor Mate, and it's in the Realms of Ghosts. And I read that and he. And how some people are predisposed to addiction. And you kind of don't know unless you hit it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Like who? I've never. I've never had a drink of alcohol. Never tried a drug because I'm so scared of it, because I saw it so much. I would love to. I think it'd be awesome. I had flirted with this idea of a show called Bobby Does Drugs. And it's the first time that I try everything. Like, everything from doing a shot. And in episode two, I smoke weed. Episode. Episode seven, I do heroin.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Tell me worse that could happen.

[Bobby Bones]

Right? Tell me that wouldn't be a good show.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It'd be such a good show. You know, I would. I would do that with you because I have also never tried anything except for weed.

[Bobby Bones]

And you've never, like, seen all the cocaine and thought, not I want to do it, but, like, a police officer can't be a cop until they get tased and pepper sprayed.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Never tried it.

[Amanda Knox]

Wow.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And. And I mean, more than being in with a Sinalo cartel and seeing production or. Or in Colombia and Peru and seeing production of cocaine or fentanyl. More than that, being in social situations with friends and them doing cocaine or ecstasy, I've been that. And I'm sure you have too Many, many, many times. But I've never. It's more than just. It's not so much about being Scared. I'm generally knock your not. I. I don't like. I love to drink alcohol. I have two glasses and that's it. Anything else? When I start feeling like I'm not in control, I don't like it anymore. So that's.

[Bobby Bones]

I would love to try a hallucinogenic. I would love to try it all. Don't get me wrong, but I think I would love to like trip on something. Except I don't want a bad trip and you can't choose your trip. I've heard.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Wait, you're not afraid? I'm. I'm so afraid of taking hallucinogenic and then who knows where it's going to take me. That scares me much more than an armed man with, with guns.

[Bobby Bones]

No, not me. The guns will get me. There's a fear. But I think I'm a little more curious. But maybe I am so fearful because I've never done it. I'm a curious person. Just generally speaking. I, at one point I had some issues where I got jumped outside of work. I had my house broken into. I had numerous death threats.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, wow, this was fun.

[Bobby Bones]

Different times through my career, as I started to have more success, my platform got bigger and I left myself extremely exposed. And so I'm just walking to work at 4 in the morning. And one of the instances a guy had just been just watching me through the night, trying to figure out when I was coming in. So he, you know, chasing me with a knife. I get jumped outside the building. So I had some bad PTSD to where I would close my eyes and it was always somebody attacking me. And so I went to my doctor and I wasn't sleeping, so I was sick always. And in my job, if I have a sore throat, I've got to talk for five hours in the morning. And so I told him, I'm so scared of being addicted to something.

[Amanda Knox]

Nothing.

[Bobby Bones]

So let's. With that in mind, let's progress. And I would try all of these and nothing worked. I was going to therapy. I was doing edmt. I was doing everything possible. I was investing in getting better and it just wasn't helping. And I was sleeping 45 minutes a night sometimes. Or I would find I would go to hotels randomly and just stay so I could get sleep because I felt protected by the walls, right? So I would create barriers. And we got to the point to where he said, said you can try a sleeping pill. And it had been seven or eight months in the process and I was getting no sleep. So I tried a sleeping Pill. And I don't remember stuff I was doing while I was taking the sleeping pills. So I would.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What were you taking?

[Bobby Bones]

Edular E D U L A R. And so I think it was just one of the versions of like your generic sleeping pill. I could probably look that up. But I remember it was Eddie Lar and I was so afraid that I would take it like on a flight or something and I would. Next thing you know, I'd be arrested because I like took a dump in the airline, like in the aisle or something because I was so scared of what I wasn't, what I didn't know I was doing. So I stopped. Like, I stopped immediately. I had such withdrawal and I had so, such crazy withdrawal. Like what? Like I could. My eyes were open, but it was all black.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Huh.

[Bobby Bones]

Like it was all to where I just had. And I would shake and I went through withdrawal. To me, it felt so crazy. I had never felt closer to my mom because she had tried to get off drugs so many times. And we'll talk about withdrawal and I didn't go through a tenth, a hundredth of what she would do. And it was. I kinda understood a little bit then. And I'm not grateful for it, but I definitely see the value in that happening to me because it gave me a window into her life and why it was a revolving door and why she could not get clean before she died. I mean, she was never, you know, clean. She would try, but, yeah, I'm afraid of what I'll do as a parent by me stopping taking the pills.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So how did you get better, by the way of the fear?

[Bobby Bones]

A lot of therapy, full time security. I also started making more money, so I just compensated by like providing those barriers around me. Lots of alarms, guns, you know, work for the cartel now.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

So I got a run gun.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Here we go.

[Bobby Bones]

Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor. A dog's love letter to his squeaky avocado. Dearest squeaky avocado, my heart yearns to chew thee. Alas, I've devoured a small action figure and have taken ill, unable to partake in our jubilant squeakings. Worry not as I am on the mend. And Lemonade pet insurance covered 90% of the veterinarian's cost. I recommend all the cats and dogs of the land. Get a'@lemonade.com pet soon my tummy will be unburdened and we shall frolic once more. Yours, Jerry.

[Amanda Knox]

In 2023, a story gripped the UK evoking horror and disbelief.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

A nurse who should have been in charge of caring for time tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history.

[Amanda Knox]

Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict. A villain. A nurse named Lucy Letby.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Lucy Letby has been found guilty.

[Amanda Knox]

But what if we didn't get the whole story?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses.

[Amanda Knox]

I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast the Case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was.

[Jill Winterstein]

No voicing of any skepticism or doubt.

[Bobby Bones]

It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong.

[Amanda Knox]

Listen to Doubt the Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jill Winterstein]

Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a

[Mariana Van Zeller]

mini driver, the Irish traveler said when I was 16. You're gonna have a terrible time with men.

[Jill Winterstein]

Actor, storyteller and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are Misunderstood A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.

[Jill Winterstein]

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity and real life, this episode is a must. Listen Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Bobby Bones]

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Sergeant Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the US Government is onto him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer. No doubt, no question of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its Vault of Secrets. Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back on the bobbycast. Do you think there is innate evil?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You know, I, I think there is, but I think it's very little amount in the world compared to, you know, I live surrounded by the people we consider the bad guys, right in the work that I do. And very rarely am I not able to see humanity and people. The vast majority of times people, no one is, I always say this, no one is born wanting to be a criminal. There are a few people out there that you know, think that being part of a gang or you know, being a pimp or whatever is cool and they gravitate towards that world. A lot of times it's actually circumstance, but anyway, the majority of times the people that I sit across are people just like you and me. They're like mothers and fathers and our neighbors and they're people whose, you know, goal in life is, is happiness and to be able to provide for their families and because of circumstance, lack of opportun, lack of jobs or the environment they grow up in, if your family is in the cartel or if your, you know, hometown heroes are pimps, that's what you're going to want to be. So that's a lot more what leads people to a life of crime than it is somebody being born evil or, you know, wanting to be a criminal from the start.

[Bobby Bones]

I feel the same way.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And I see it again and again. I mean, I can tell you individual stories. I will never Forget the kid, 16, 17 year old kid that we interviewed in Peru. We had just filmed inside a massive cocaine lab out in the jungle in the Amazon rainforest. It was incredible. It's like an open pit of coca leaves that they are then adding chemicals to to make cocaine paste to then transform into the powder that is shipped mostly here to the United States and Europe. And I was filming a part of, we are doing this whole supply chain and we're filming the part where the kids, there's these like teenagers that take the cocaine from the Amazon rainforest over the mountains to the capital where then it's distribute. And these are kids with like massive amounts of cocaine on their back, traveling for days and nights on end, camping out in the, in the open and some of them being killed by rival groups that tried to steal from them. And so this kid had seen several people being killed, some of his friends being killed in front of him. It's backbreaking work and I Asked him like, why do you do this kind of work? It's horrible. He said, look, my family is incredibly poor. I want to go to college and this is the only job opportunity offered so that I could save money to go to college. I said, what is it that you want to do when you go to college? I want to become a dentist. Dentist? Why dentist? Because all the posters that he sees in his hometown are for dentist offices and he sees all the people with big white smiles and he said, I want to make people smile like that.

[Bobby Bones]

Wow.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So I hear these stories again and again. You know, I'm just going to give you a shorter example. Tweety, a scammer, re interviewed in Jamaica and I asked her and she initially comes across as very glib. She's saying she was telling me the story about how she stole from this very, this elderly American woman. She stole everything this woman had, including her wedding ring, basically by promise, saying that she was going to gain, she got the lottery ticket and if she paid for this fee and this fee, she was going to get millions of dollars. This elderly lady, very gullible elderly lady that ended up giving her all her money, including the wedding ring. And then I asked her, but hey, Tweety, I mean, do you feel bad about this? I mean, why did you even start scamming people in the first place? Said, look, I work in a resort, luxury resort in Montego Bay. I make less money in, you know, a week than the family spends in a day here at the resort or in a year than the family spends in a day here at the resort. My, my grandfather, who I adore, got sick. He needed two thousand dollar surgery. No one in my family could afford it. I could not afford it. He ended up dying for $2,000. So I grew up with the idea. Everyone in my family says, God, God will provide. Well, God, like she literally said, God ain't done shit for me. God ain't provided, you know, so I'm going to be the one who has to provide for my family. And that's the day she decided to start scamming people.

[Bobby Bones]

People you've worked a lot besides scammers. I don't want to say exposing, but like telling their story or how they do it or, yeah, they're kind of bad guys.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Some of them are, are come across as very heartless. Right.

[Bobby Bones]

Do you think they can be heartless because they don't actually know? They don't see the person in their eyeballs? Because yeah, I do too.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You know the hate you get online? I'M sure you get it.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, yeah. Trust me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Right.

[Bobby Bones]

I think you must have seen, you must have seen the comment section of my post. Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No one, no one would be able to say that face to face. Right. Looking in your eyes and saying this stuff that people tell me, you know, go back to your country and what are you doing here? And you know, all that stuff.

[Bobby Bones]

And they said that to me. What do they say to you?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What do they say? What's the worst they've said to you?

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, it's all die, die stuff.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, wow. Why? What have you done to piss them off so much?

[Bobby Bones]

Just be charming. I. I think they just, it's like you're talking about. They just see somebody so charming and they're like, I work all. And I'm not that charming. And he has. I think it's just, it's a. And I will tell artists this when they're new, not to divert from what you're saying, but when you start off, you're standing on the ground. The only people that can see you are the people that are standing right by you because the elevation is the same. But as your platform goes up, well, now you're exposed to more people because you're up five feet now, more people can see you. And just the raw numbers, there's going to be a couple, just generally a couple crazies in that as you go up more, just do the numbers game. There's going to be seven instead of two.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

You're up high, there's going to be a thousand. And so it's just a numbers game. And my platform has kind of done this a bit. But the more successful I've been, the crazier and the more threatening the messages get. Not about anything specifically, but just existing within a platform where you have opinions. Scammers, there's a lot of. Since they're not seeing the person, it's easier to take from them. Right?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes. Yeah. And I think many. The idea is that everyone who lives in America is rich, so even if they take away a few thousand dollars from them, they won't notice. So I'm doing this project. I can't talk a lot about it, but I'm doing this project with Nat Geo where it's about scamming. It's a different. Different from trafficked. And I was on the phone the other day with one of those Indian call centers, right. Where they're trying to convince me that they're stealing my. Somebody is stealing my information online. So I have to download this app that will save me. And when I'm downloading the app, they basically get access to my phone and to my accounts and everything. Anyway, I started saying, look, I know you're a scammer. I'm gonna tell you who I am. My name is Mariana Van Zeller. You can Google me. He did. And you realized I was a journalist. And he was like, oh, I love National Geographic.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm a big fan.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

He also said I was very beautiful, which I was very happy. He was very sweet, and he was very. And he's very charming. And we started talking. I said, okay, tell me, what do you. Why. Why do you do what you do? And then eventually he said, like, look, we. I'm only stealing from very rich people. How do you know they're rich? Because I have access to their bank account. I can see it. And so what makes a person rich? A thousand dollars in their bank account tells me that they're rich. A thousand dollars. So there's just a complete. They don't realize that obviously there's a huge gap between what's happening in India and the United States. And for them, they don't really see a problem with it.

[Bobby Bones]

Have you ever been scammed?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I don't believe so, man.

[Bobby Bones]

I. I got it. Yeah, a couple times. I'm really good about it. I say, and I think. And I. But it comes all the time from all directions, right? And they get better and better. And so, like, I am so vigilant about not being scammed. And I think that's what got me, because my friend sent me an email. I don't. I don't open it. I call them. You send me an email, know? Yep. Okay, I'm gonna get into it. So I'm, like, into it. Right?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

And so once I. There was this beef jerky that I liked, and I bought it from an Instagram ad, and it came through and it was. It was perfect. Loved it was the finest beef jerky I've ever had. And I wanted more, but I could. The ad didn't pop back up, so I googled the beef jerky, went to the beef jerky site, and it's like, you can buy, but you have to buy, like, five bags at once. It's high quality stuff. Kind of like that cocaine down there in Mexico. And so I ordered five bags, and, you know, you put your name, your address, blah, blah. And so beef jerky never came. And so I. I get a call because it was when I ordered on Instagram, kind of like two days, I get a call. Like two or three days later, I didn't have any beef jerky. And that was already kind of weird. And I get a call and it's like, hey, this is Bobby. And I'm like, yeah. So they knew my note. They have my phone number and they knew my name and they knew my address. And they were like, hey, this is your bank. Bank. Somebody has tried to spend a bunch of money on this credit card. Last number, they had everything. And I'm going, man, all that's right. And they're like, we want to get on FaceTime or Zoom or whatever. One of the video, we need to look in your bank account. And that doesn't happen. But I'd already gotten to this point with them. And I said, no, that's not right. Like it's all churning in my head at once. And they're like, no, this is your bank. This is your bank account, your credit card number. We wouldn't know all that if we weren't your bank. So if you'll get on and share with us. And I'm like, I don't think so. This doesn't feel comfortable. I'll call you back and hang up. Turns out they had built a beef jerky site that looked exactly like the original beef jerky site. And so I went to it. I googled it. They had paid to move it up. I went to that site. When I put in all the information, it wasn't a real site. They took all the information and they called me with all my information. So I believe is great. Over beef jerky. Over beef jerky.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That is crazy. That is crazy.

[Bobby Bones]

My love of beef. Almost got me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Got you? Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

So that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That is crazy.

[Bobby Bones]

Almost got God on that one.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But yeah, it's. They're getting better and better. So the project that I'm doing with Nat Geo basically is that I'm saying yes to every single scam that comes my way. And so I've been seeing all these kind of scams and while doing this project, this actually happened where I have a camera with me and I'm filming myself all the time and I'm answering phone calls. But at one. But immediately, I kind of know which ones scams and what's not. And one of them almost got me. It was. It was a call from. I have a bank account. I have a Chase bank account. And it was a call from my Chase bank from my. My. What do you call the. The. The location that Chase has?

[Bobby Bones]

Were they saying they were Chase?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes. So it was a woman, American accent, a Lot of them sometimes don't. But in this case it was an American accent. And she was so convincing. And she started saying that there was some strange activity and they needed. Needed to figure out. So she was asking for all this information from me. And then I called my husband, but I'm recording the whole time on video. I kept it rolling and he has no idea what's happening either. And I. It almost got me, but then when I started asking more questions, they hung up the phone. And then I called Chase and they said, no, it wasn't us. They. A lot of times they used. They use. They're able to tap into our phone numbers and call. And it says on the screen, chase, which is crazy.

[Bobby Bones]

Crazy. I have a friend who's done that show, except it's not recorded and it's not on purpose. She's just been scammed every single time by every single scam.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

She's.

[Bobby Bones]

She's lived the same show just accidentally. And she has. No, no, like the records of her being scammed. She's funded like four scamming organizations. Oh, yeah. She gets scammed all the time.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Why? She's the most gullible.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. So much. And just believes everything.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Kind of sweet.

[Bobby Bones]

She's very nice. Yeah. But just clicks everything. There's a link. Click it. That's her motto. If there's a link, I'm going to click it. Yeah. The scammers are so prevalent in our lives now, it just feels like they're coming.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

In all directions all the time.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Every. What I say is that every part of an American American's life is now scammable. Right. You want to go on a date? You want to open a bank account? You want to enroll for college?

[Bobby Bones]

You want AI too?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Bye. Bye.

[Bobby Bones]

Beef jerky.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Trauma. Trauma. I was watching your Anna Delvey interview and I love uncomfortableness.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, I hate uncomfortableness.

[Bobby Bones]

Like, I. I thrive in it. And some of my stand up is so uncomfortable that it's not funny to anybody else except me. So I enjoy it. That was uncomfortable.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So freaking uncomfortable.

[Bobby Bones]

Why would she agree to do the interview?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

First of all, I don't think she researched it. She didn't know. I don't know what she thought. Quite frankly. I thought, okay, she sat down. I thought, this is an interview about you.

[Bobby Bones]

Explain who Anna Delvey is.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. So Anna Delvey, also known as Anna Sorkin. That's her family name. She changed her name to Anna Delvey. Early on, she was a fake heiress. There was a show on Netflix about her called Inventing Anna, she moved to the United States from, she's originally from Russia. Her family moved to Germany, then she moved to Paris and eventually ended up in New York, where she basically fooled people into believing that she was a billionaire from Germany, a heiress of this massive fortune. But she went as far as going into banks and meeting with bankers who gave her a shit ton of money, believing her story. And she was staying at these five star, really the Howard Hotel in New York, very expensive hotel, for weeks and weeks on end without paying a single dollar because they believed she had this massive fortune. And you don't ask clients for money up front if they're wealthy and powerful. And she would just con people left and right. And so my show is about black markets and where I get a chance to talk to smugglers and traffickers and con artists and fraudsters and whatnot. And so I thought she'd at least research that and knew that what I was interested in knowing about was her history. Right. But she sat down. She didn't want to talk about her past. But even when I tried to, okay, so let's talk about your present. What are you up to now? It's like, oh, I don't want to jinx it. So at one point in the interview, I tried every single way to get something out, more than, I don't know, out of her. I asked her, so, okay, so why did you come on the podcast? And she said, I don't know. You're not paying me. It was like, exactly, I'm not. So why are you here? I really could not figure it out. But she doesn't like me, Right?

[Bobby Bones]

Why do you think, think that she came?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I, I, Okay. She told me it was because a friend, my producer has, they have, has a friend in common with her and had been, had contacted the friend and said, hey, would Anna Delvey ever come on this new podcast? And apparently after a few asks, she said yes, but she hadn't researched the podcast. But even if she had, I don't understand what kind of podcast she would have been comfortable talking because I just don't think she feels comfortable talking full stop.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, and that's the weird thing. I, I was on Dancing with the Stars and she did that show and it was weird and there was.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you guys weren't on the same fest.

[Bobby Bones]

No, no, no. But I have a lot of friends at BBC.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What do people say?

[Bobby Bones]

She's difficult, obviously, and didn't want to do it. But then why do it? Yeah, like that was some of my friends who work in what Was called the organization of the abc, Disney, BBC. I want to say exactly who they are. They were like, we didn't understand why she did it if she didn't want to do it, because obviously she didn't want to do it by her actions. She was so miserable all the time.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And there's a lot of people out there that are Team Anna that are obsessed with her and do and follow everything they do. So there's all these comments on. On my podcast, on my. On that episode saying how. And they see it as. Anna doesn't owe anything to anyone. Right. Anna is just Ann, and this is who she is. And it's an act. But I actually not sure if that's the case. I don't think it is an act. I. I think that she's just difficult. I think. I think she's very, very insecure. I don't think. Even though she's actually quite smart and funny. But I think she doesn't think she has much to add or she's insecure about. So she doesn't end up saying much. I think maybe.

[Bobby Bones]

Do you ever just go, this is

[Mariana Van Zeller]

a nice start, like.

[Bobby Bones]

Like the Office or Smurfs or something? Just to cleanse the palette because it's just so intense all the time. It feels like your job is. And maybe to you it's baseline.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I think it's baseline. I. I'm. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not the Bachelor watcher or any of those shows. It's never been my cup of tea. I love documentaries. I love sort of darker subjects. It's what I. It's what I like. But I drink a lot of wine.

[Bobby Bones]

The Bobby cast will be right back. This is the Bobby cast. Did you approach it differently once you had a kid?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No. No. Again. Because I don't think of it as something that would. Is actually risk my life. So I think of it as I have to plan ahead. I have to make sure that I'm minimizing the risk and I'll be able to get out of here unscathed, even though shit happens all the time. But. So it didn't really change. What it made me is much more emotional and being able to connect with people much more. You know, when I talk to women, and a lot of times it's women who are victims of sex trafficking and human trafficking and even scams. And to be able to talk to these women, a lot of them are mothers. It's much easier for me to connect and understand their pain and their grief. And so I'VE become much more emotional. Even talking about this makes me emotional. But, yeah, it's women, usually. They also have been the biggest inspiration for me. There is nothing stronger in the world than a mother fighting for their child. Right. And that's what I found again and again.

[Bobby Bones]

We were talking before you came in about your podcast, the Hidden Third, and I was referencing the episode with one of the Jeffrey Epstein victims. And that's something that I've been outwardly so surprised that so many heads haven't been rolled, chopped off, camp. Like, if we're not protecting kids, like, what are we even doing? Right?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So 100.

[Bobby Bones]

And I get met with a. You're just being political. And I'm like, there's nothing. Burn them all.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes, exactly. There's nothing political.

[Bobby Bones]

It doesn't matter to me. Burn them all. And so. So you talk about getting emotional. I mean, did you get emotional while

[Mariana Van Zeller]

doing that, interviewing Lisa Phillips? Absolutely. And again, a huge inspiration for me, just the bravery of her speaking out. And it was interesting. Like, she's gotten a lot of people, usually people who are victims of abuse. It's really hard for them to accept and to admit it. And there's a lot of shame around it, obviously, as you know. And it took her years to be able. And it wasn't until the first victim came out, Virginia Giuffre, and she was the first to publicly speak out about what was happening that she gained the courage to speak out herself. And she was initially, she didn't say she was a victim. She just wanted to have Virginia's back and say, I saw this happening. I know it happened to other people. But it wasn't until years later that she was actually able to say, yeah, it happened to me. And this is exactly what happened. She's incredibly brave, grave, and she's one of those people that's out there on Congress, in Congress, in front of Congress, speaking out and talking about how. Why it's important to release the files.

[Bobby Bones]

The Virginia Gifrey death is really, really suspicious, right?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It is suspicious, yes. And it's interesting.

[Bobby Bones]

I shouldn't insert you. You thinking that. Is that death suspicious to you? Because it is to me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It is to a lot of people. And when I was researching this, I found, yeah, there's a lot of people that this is suspicious. And you know what's interesting, too, is, like, the Epstein death, right, when people started talking about how it was suspicious. There's no way he was killed. He committed suicide. And anyone who would approach it as if he had been killed was seen As a conspiracy theorist. Right. And you fast forward a few years and now I think most people think that in fact it wasn't a conspiracy theory, that he was probably killed.

[Bobby Bones]

There's just so much purposefully planted misinformation. An AI video of him in the cell, the edited footage where you can go into the metadata and you can see, like, sloppily.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

That's the craziest part to me, because I'm sure we've been been fooled a million times, a million different ways by our government or the powers that be, but to do it so sloppily has been the thing that has blown my mind the most and just expect that we're just going to take it and move. Move on.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Or distract us.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Distract us.

[Bobby Bones]

Because there's a lot of distraction happening right now, too, to keep us from talking about it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And it was interesting. I mean, the reason why I say it's not political. I mean, it's extremely political, but it's apolitical in a way that it touches everybody. Right. It was used as a tool when Trump was campaigning against the Democrats, and now it's being used by the Democrats against the government. But rightfully so. I think these files need to be exposed and we need to know the truth. And according to Lisa, the importance of the. This is not about individual names. I think what all the victims want more than anything is to reveal how this wasn't just an anomaly, how this was the structure that was in place, how all these people were protecting each other. This was a massive organization, group of people that was very, very powerful, very, very rich and were all taking advantage of these girls and nobody said anything from. For freaking decades. It's. It's so scary.

[Bobby Bones]

Everybody should check out the Hidden Third, either audio or YouTube. It's. It's wonderful. It's an extension, definitely of what I've known you for anyway. And I like the long form ness of it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, me too. Me too. What I say is that trafficked was sort of the map and the hidden third is sort of the diary. Right. Where I get to hear people's stories in depth, Raw, difficult conversations, but where I also get to share some of my own personal stories.

[Amanda Knox]

Stories.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's been really fun.

[Bobby Bones]

Thank you for sitting with me for an hour. This has been amazing.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's been awesome. Thank you for having me, Vaughn.

[Bobby Bones]

Thanks for listening to a Bobbycast production. This is an I Heart podcast.

[Jill Winterstein]

Guaranteed human.