BOBBYCAST: Ryan Hurd on Being a Dad and Touring Less to Be With His Son + His love For Chains & Cardigans + Why He Didn’t Put Out a Breakup Record + Meeting Paul McCartney at a Grammy Party +

Summary

Podcast Title: The Bobby Bones Show
Host: Bobby Bones
Guest: Ryan Hurd
Episode Title: BOBBYCAST: Ryan Hurd on Being a Dad and Touring Less to Be With His Son + His Love For Chains & Cardigans + Why He Didn’t Put Out a Breakup Record + Meeting Paul McCartney at a Grammy Party
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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1. Introduction and Personal Life

Ryan Hurd opens up about significant personal changes, emphasizing the importance of prioritizing fatherhood over his music career.

• Ryan: "First priority still will always be the first priority." ([00:52])

He discusses the decision to reduce touring commitments to spend more quality time with his five-year-old son, reflecting on the profound impact this choice has had on his life and career.

• Ryan: "It's one of the best decisions I ever made was to tour less just because like this you only get one shot at your kid." ([06:02])

2. Fashion and Personal Style

Ryan shares his quirky sense of style, particularly his affinity for cardigans, which have become a staple in his wardrobe.

• Ryan: "I've been wearing [cardigans] about five months in a row every day to work." ([02:49])

He humorously recounts a conversation with his wife about experimenting with wearing a gold chain during an NFL Honors Awards show, highlighting the importance of confidence in personal fashion choices.

• Ryan: "I wear a chain now... to remind myself I can wear whatever the frick I want." ([05:53])

3. Music Career and Songwriting

The discussion delves into Ryan's achievements as both an artist and a songwriter. He praises his second album, "Midwest Rock and Roll," and highlights his successful songwriting for other artists.

• Ryan: "The album's great. Check it out." ([01:11])

He reflects on the evolving music industry, particularly the challenges and strategies related to streaming, radio play, and songwriting. Ryan emphasizes the importance of owning his masters and maintaining creative control.

• Ryan: "I've switched up my business a little bit to where, like, I own my masters now, which is very cool." ([10:10])

4. Navigating the Music Industry

Ryan provides insightful commentary on the current state of the music industry, including the significance of relationships, streaming platforms, and the lack of a singular "right way" to achieve success.

• Ryan: "There is no ultimate gatekeeper." ([08:08])

He discusses the financial aspects of songwriting, explaining how royalties and publishing deals work, and the complexities of recoupment in the industry.

• Ryan: "Understanding publishing money, where it comes from... it's like selling advertising." ([60:28])

5. Challenges of Touring

Both Bobby and Ryan express their mutual anxieties about touring, particularly the stress of ticket sales and the desire to remain connected with family.

• Ryan: "Touring is causing a lot of anxiety... I don't like being away from my kid." ([10:10])

• Ryan: "I hate on sale day... I go through the list. She goes, how many times does it ever happen?" ([14:25])

6. Meeting Paul McCartney at the Grammys

One of the most memorable moments of the episode is Ryan's recounting of meeting the legendary Paul McCartney at a Grammy party. He describes the surreal experience and how it inspired him to write a song about the encounter.

• Ryan: "I met Paul McCartney at an LA after party in a suit... wondering what I'm doing here." ([68:22])

He elaborates on the emotional significance of the meeting, connecting it to his childhood memories of music fostered by his father.

• Ryan: "The reason I make music is because my dad played 'Let It Be' on a record when I was a kid." ([74:08])

7. Reflections on Success and Fulfillment

Towards the end of the conversation, Ryan shares his perspective on measuring success not by personal sales or streams, but by the impact of his songwriting and the happiness it brings him.

• Ryan: "What makes me happy is the making of it... that's the thing that I will always love." ([77:05])

He underscores the privilege of being able to create music and the deep satisfaction it provides, despite the industry's uncertainties.

• Ryan: "Writing songs every day is its own reward. It's the greatest job on the planet." ([77:32])

8. Closing Thoughts

Ryan reflects on his journey, the support from his team and family, and his aspirations for future projects. He remains optimistic about continuing his career in a way that aligns with his personal values and priorities.

• Ryan: "I'm so blessed to get to do this. I hope I can continue to for a long time." ([77:05])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ryan on Prioritizing Fatherhood:
  "First priority still will always be the first priority." ([00:52])

• On Touring Less for Family:
  "It's one of the best decisions I ever made was to tour less just because like this you only get one shot at your kid." ([06:02])

• Regarding Personal Style:
  "I wear a chain now... to remind myself I can wear whatever the frick I want." ([05:53])

• On Owning Masters:
  "I've switched up my business a little bit to where, like, I own my masters now, which is very cool." ([10:10])

• Meeting Paul McCartney:
  "I met Paul McCartney at an LA after party in a suit... wondering what I'm doing here." ([68:22])

• Measuring Success:
  "My measuring stick is how many songs am I getting cut by other artists." ([56:18])

• On the Joy of Songwriting:
  "Writing songs every day is its own reward. It's the greatest job on the planet." ([77:32])

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Conclusion

In this episode of The Bobby Bones Show, Ryan Hurd provides an intimate look into his life as a dedicated father and a talented musician navigating the complexities of the music industry. From his heartfelt decision to prioritize his family over touring to his creative process in songwriting, Ryan offers valuable insights and personal anecdotes that resonate with aspiring artists and fans alike. The highlight of the conversation, meeting Paul McCartney, serves as a testament to the serendipitous moments that shape an artist's journey. Overall, Ryan's candidness and passion for music make this episode a compelling listen for anyone interested in the intersection of personal life and professional artistry in the world of music.

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[B]

Thank you to the presenting sponsor of today's episode, American Express. I'm a big American Express guy. I travel for work a lot. I'm able to use this card in an amazing way for my business expenses. You know me, I'm on the road. I feel like sometimes too much. But all the points I get makes it so much better. With the Amex Business Platinum, you earn five times membership reward points on flights and prepaid hotels. Book through amextravel.com/ you can work while you're on the go with access to more than 1400 lounges globally through the American Express Global Lounge collection, including the Centurion Lounge. That's powerful backing of American Express terms apply. Learn [e-mail] AmEx Business.

[A]

And there was a lot of personal stuff I just had to handle and I had to get like, make sure my feet were underneath me and whatever life looked like going forward was like being a dad. First priority still will always be the first priority.

[B]

Ryan Hurd, I don't often say this, but he put out a new record that even I like and I listen to. I agree. There's just so much music. It's hard to love everything. It's hard to actually give all the music we talk about the proper attention it needs. But if you listen to a couple songs and you're like, dang, like, I'm into it, that's what happened here. It's one of the few albums this year I listened to all the way through. Yeah, it's great. It is like, I'll start with the music before I talk about how good a guy is. But Ryan's second album, called Midwest Rock and Roll, came out in late March. It really is great. Ryan also, aside from being an artist that has songs and has has had number ones, he wrote Friday Night Heartbreaker, John Party, which is doing great. Now I Ain't Gonna Be so Heartless Morgan Wallen Diplo Circles around this Town Maren Morris what My World Spins Around Jordan Davis Waves Luke Bryan Sunrise, Sunburn, Sunset Luke Bryan, Last turn home Tim McGraw, lonely tonight Blake Shelton, Ashley Monroe he's got a lot of success as a songwriter. He could just do that if he wanted to. But the album's great. Check it out. He's also a friend of mine. I like it when I can sit with friends and ask them things I wouldn't ask them any other time because it's not like if we play golf, I'm like, hey, man, creatively, what's this song you wrote. Yeah. So I do enjoy this part of it. Check it out. Here he is. Ryan Hurd on Instagram. Love the guy. Love the album. Ryan Herd here with Ryan Herd. Nice cardigan. I laugh because you text me yesterday and you were like, we're going to talk about cardigans.

[A]

I like your cardigan, too, brother.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

I.

[B]

That's all I've been wearing about five months in a row every day to work. Five months.

[A]

It's. It is, I think, the most important article of clothing that you can own.

[B]

And for me, it. It's a standard. I have a lot of them. You can wear them in the spring, you can wear them in the fall. You can wear them in the winter.

[A]

Summer gets a little iffy mornings instead of like a. I keep the studio.

[B]

Freezing cold, though, so I'm all good. But I feel like I always look put together. It's kind of like Weezer meets Grandma is kind of. My style is what I'd say the.

[A]

Greatest television character of all time, the dude in the Big Lebowski, has his own signature cardigan. That's what I aspire to.

[B]

What yours looks like Native American. Mine. This is my pink.

[A]

This is my favorite. I got this on sale from Polo, and I've kept it for about eight years. It's got holes in it.

[B]

Yeah. Yours is, like, cool. Ralph Lauren. Mine's like Powerpuff.

[A]

Powerpuff Girls. No, it's. That's the kind of thing that people are like, oh, I could never pull that off. And it's like, yeah, you can. You just got to own it.

[B]

It's funny you say that. My wife had the talk with me. Every once in a while, my wife has to have the talk. Have a talk with me.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like a child at times. And I was asking her. I was wearing something to something, and I was like, you know, can I pull this off? Oh, I know what it was. Give you a little backstory. It took me a second to get there because obviously, I wasn't prepared to talk about this, but I was at the NFL Honors Awards show, and I was presenting an award on Fox. It was pretty cool because I work in sports now.

[A]

It's pretty cool, pretty awesome.

[B]

And so NFL's like, hey, why don't you present the award to George Kittle? And it was me and Kyle Juszczyk, and I was like, that's.

[A]

That's Natural guy.

[B]

That sounds cool. Yeah. Lives right down the road. And so I didn't want to wear a tie, but I wanted to wear a suit. Because I wanted to respect it, but I just didn't want to look like an accountant.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it was all NFL. Different world, like, our world. I felt like I could show up in a vest with no shirt and some shorts that said country rocks, and I'd still feel comfortable because I know our environment. I know the people, and I just know it.

[A]

Yes. But that I don't.

[B]

It's not my people. So I just wanted to make sure that they felt it was respected. I wasn't wearing a tie, and I said, I would like to wear something a little extra. She's like, wear this gold chain and. Or she bought me a gold chain. I was like, man, I don't know. And I literally brought you up. Because the one time I tried to wear a chain was a couple years ago, because I was like, I'm gonna be like Ryan and wear a chain. And I couldn't pull it off. I couldn't pull off, like, the long chain. But she was like, don't. If you don't wear a tie, just wear, like, a chain. Maybe you can see a little bit on the back of your neck. And I was like, I don't know.

[A]

If I could pull it off.

[B]

And she was like, honest to God, you can pull off whatever you want as long as you want.

[A]

As long as you just wear it with confidence and you feel comfortable.

[B]

She was like, you can pull off anything you want.

[A]

Yeah. Like, your shoes don't even have backs on them today.

[B]

They're called mules.

[A]

That's correct. Yeah. You're crushing it. You walked in and I was like, oh, those are dope shoes.

[B]

And I walked in with these shoes going, oh, these are all like, a fine crap, but. But I wear a chain now. Not your honor. I tuck it, but I wear it to remind myself I can wear whatever the frick I want. And this is a little razorback with a diamond on its eye. So it is cool. Cause she got it for me. But, yeah, you can pull off whatever you want to pull off.

[A]

I still tuck them most of the time because I want.

[B]

You don't have to, though.

[A]

You don't have to. So, like, today I pulled this little quartz out and this little feather out.

[B]

I picture you with, like, an array of necklaces.

[A]

I got a little stand, and I wear the same ones all the time. I got a little O. Hayes one, which is like a. A little H at the end of when I try to wear that one. But he might. He might have grabbed it and put.

[B]

It somewhere because he's already Wearing it.

[A]

It wandered off. Oh, he just gets into stuff.

[B]

How's that going?

[A]

Dude, I love being a dad. It is awesome. So I, Yeah, man. I took him to school this morning. I'll pick him up at 3:30 and we'll go play. He likes tennis lessons. He's gonna go do that. I don't know, man. It's cool. I. I made a decision a couple years ago to two or less because I was just missing it, man. It was an A plus decision. I hear all these people all the time being like, man, I wish I would have been around more for my kid when he was little. But I was out here riding this bus trying to. And for me I'd do a lot of things. So my income wasn't solely based on touring. So I was like, what am I doing out here? Like I'm. I'm missing the whole thing. So I went home and then I ended up making this album slowly and I, I. It's one of the best decisions I ever made was to tour less just because like this you only get one shot at your kid. And I really wanted to make sure I was really, really involved in his life. And I'm really thankful that I get to see him as much as I do, man. He's a, he's a great, great little five year old boy. He's five. Isn't that nuts?

[B]

That's pretty crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's crazy. He's five.

[A]

Covid. We went in, I remember we went in Covid. We went in, no masks or anything. We're just starting to hear about stuff and I had to cancel some dates and we came out, everyone was wearing face shields. So three days, that's how fast it flipped. And he was, that's when we had him.

[B]

So you had him during face shield time?

[A]

Right when it started, when the doctors all started wearing face shields. It was nuts. So it's sort of funny. It's like he's a, he's a Covid baby. He. Every little, like every year I'm like, oh. So that was however old he is years ago when that all started.

[B]

It also seems weird that that was five years ago that Covid happened.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That Covid was ending.

[A]

That was starting or whatever it was.

[B]

All my years are mixed up because of it. I don't know.

[A]

I agree. Everything is different.

[B]

Yeah. What works for you now? And I'll ask that question and give you some back on it. Some artists are man, TikTok crushes for me. Some are, you know, I'm just going to focus on streaming. Some are, I want to go radio first and hopefully streaming hits after. And there's not a right way. And what's great is there's not a right way. There is no ultimate gatekeeper. What's difficult about it is there's not a right way. Yeah, I mean, so, like, what do you find works for you?

[A]

Hopefully something. I remember when I first started doing this, it was like, if you could get your foot in the door with a handful of people, then you could sort of do a lot of stuff behind the scenes, like just with personal relationships. And that seems to have not mattered as much in the last two or three years. I mean, it is true. I mean, when we were talking about like, Spotify or radio, it'd be like, hey, well, I know this PD and I have a good relationship with them and so I'll text them and call them and. And you know, when I need an ad or need something, I, you know, know that, like, these guys will be here for me. And same with like, the DSPs, it was all, remember, John Marks ran Spotify and you would just. If you were buddies with John Marks, you could get a lot of stuff playlisted. And playlisting was a lot more important, you know, six, seven years ago, I think, as far as just like grinding on streams. So for me now, I don't know, I mean, I think after the last couple years of my professional life and personal life, like, I think I don't exactly know what works for me, but I've switched up my, like, business a little bit to where, like, I own my masters now, which is very cool.

[B]

Do you have to buy them back or was it just a new deal?

[A]

No, all the new stuff I I is mine. And so it's. If you look at like my new album, it has my little label on there, which is her jams, records and tapes. And then it says, you know, license to big machine music. So that, you know, for me works because I love making records and I love writing songs. And so from. I have had a really. Because I do both things. I don't feel like, this financial pressure to tour, which is a really important thing for me. Like touring is. It causes a lot of anxiety. And for me personally, I don't like being away from my kid. I don't. It just is not my, it's not my thing. I love the fans, I love the music part, but there's not a whole lot of creativity involved in that part of the business. So what works for me is being a songwriter for other artists, which I'm still incredibly blessed to be doing, and then to make records and then do like small tours off of those records, which I'm trying to figure out what the best way to do that going forward is. But if I feel like most people who do this get two out of three, they get publishing, writing songs, they get masters or some sort of version of making money off their recordings depending on how they structure it with their label or if they're massive, then it doesn't matter, but. And then the third thing would be touring. And so most people, if you think about their careers, get two of those three. For the most part they get. Either they write their own songs or they. I don't know. So for me I've kind of focused it in that direction. I. As far as like what works for me online and stuff. Like, I don't know, it's a. That's a hard thing for. I've just never been. I've never been as interested in it, if that makes sense. Like I'm a really private person. I think I have like really close friends and I'm really close with my family and I just have never been super comfortable being super outward, like public facing. Especially with like my personal life. That's always been really awkward for me because it's just a little, A little unnatural. So the. For me what works is like just kind of focusing on music stuff and letting my team kind of steer me. That's a really long answer. I don't know if it's helpful or not.

[B]

I wondered too where you were going to go and you said anxiety Touring. Because mine when I do tour, if I'm doing comedy, my anxiety is not being gone because I'm gone all the time. It's that nobody's going to buy tickets as massive. Well, that's huge, like crazy anxiety. Hate it. I hate every on sale day. I hate it.

[A]

Oh dude. I'm actually having like a physical reaction to that when you said it. I hate. I hate. I wish I was like, I. I remember Russell Dickerson and I did the Thomas Rhett tour together with Kelsey and Thomas and it was Thomas's first time headlining and Kelsey's first time in arenas and me and Russ our first time doing anything. We shared a bus and Russ is such a live show guy. He's so great at it. And for me I'm like, I'm just kind of like this. I'm not an introvert, but I'm very like, I'm a writer. I like making records. I like being like the brooding, like, mystery guy. So when I figured out, like, how to make a great show, I really did well, but it was like I had to learn how to do it all. But, like, someone like Russell is like, he's. When his on sale day comes, he's so pumped.

[B]

He's pumped about everything, though. Like, he's pumped that he wakes up in the morning and is like, another day. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

But for me, I'm like, I get that way about writing, so I get that way about being in the studio with making records, about sitting with artists, making songs. Like, that's to me, like, me. Like, I'll sit. I did it yesterday. I wrote with Adrian Nunes. Is it Nunez? Adrian Nunez. I wrote with him. He's a fantastic artist. And I, just an hour in, was like, this is my favorite part. So this is my favorite part. They're like, why? Because it's all creative. It's all creative. It's amazing. I still love that so much. I still love making records and talking about them. It's just as soon as that bus pulls up, I'm like, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. On sale days eight, I'm. I'm four hours away from being irrelevant and washed up.

[A]

Have you ever had to cancel a show?

[B]

No.

[A]

Because you didn't sell enough tickets?

[B]

No. No. And again, this is a wife talk where, like, I. It. It physically bothers me, right? Because let's say they're going on sale at 10am on Friday and I've got 18 shows and I don't tour all the time. So if I'm gonna do 18 theaters, we've picked out where we think we're gonna do best. And, like, I feel sick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's like, why are you doing this to yourself? And I'm like, because if these sell terribly, I'm gonna be embarrassed. I go through the list. She goes, how many times does it ever happen? Because when you ask me that, I've never. Well, never. But there's gonna be a first.

[A]

I've had two shows. I've canceled shows, but they were for Hayes. Like, he was coming and he's gonna. He might come tomorrow.

[B]

So I. I mean, as in through, like, exist.

[A]

He might be born tomorrow. So we need to. I need to cancel the next, like, this next little run because I know I have to be home. But I've come close twice to, like, we didn't sell enough tickets. Like, we're gonna. We are going to lose our ass today. We should not be playing this show. But there's this many people who actually did buy tickets. We're gonna go play the show. It's not gonna be fun. Like, you apologize to your band, like, this isn't what you signed up for, but we gotta go. But yeah, that's a real thing. And I don't like that feeling. But I am gonna tour again. But I want to do tours around records. Like, I. I'm not going to tour this summer, but I'm going to go pretty soon here because I want to tour Midwest Rock and Roll. I want to tour the next album that we have coming, which is like, written and planned and all that stuff.

[B]

So you're already talking about the next one? Are you having toured this one?

[A]

Well, I was supposed to put out Midwest Rock and Roll in March of 24. It came out March of 25.

[B]

Was that the reason that you now own? It was. That was part of the.

[A]

No, I mean, we. I just. Marin and I split up and there was a lot of just personal stuff I just had to handle. And I had to get, like. Make sure my feet were underneath me and make sure that I could. Whatever life looked like going forward was. Was like being a dad. First priority. Still will always be the first priority. Right?

[B]

Did you think that would be the first priority, though, before you had him? Or was that a realization once?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I. I think to me, I. I love, like a normal. Like a. Like a. I'm a very normal life guy.

[B]

Like, you're also tight with your family here, too.

[A]

I am very tight with my family here. We have, like. They all live here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So, yeah, I mean, I. I took that. I don't think that's a question. I mean, even for. For either one of us, it's always, Hayes comes first. So that's like. Take that off the. But so for me, it. It took a second. I want. And I wanted it to come out exactly the way that I had written it and recorded it. I didn't want to, like, change anything. I didn't want to come out with, like, something or what people expected me to come out with. And I just wanted to put out the record I wrote. I felt like I deserved that. I felt like it was something that was important.

[B]

Wait, wait. What do people expect you to come out with?

[A]

What?

[B]

No, no, no. I'm gonna ask. Ray, ask the question. What did you expect that people expected you to come out with?

[A]

Everybody asked me if I was writing a breakup record.

[B]

That's interesting. I never. I never thought that. I never thought that was coming.

[A]

I think if you. If you know me, like, personally, you would know that, like, that's not really mine thing, but I know that, like, the industry especially was, like, waiting for that. And I'm like, I will never give you that.

[B]

Also, though, and I could be wrong here. When it's the mom of your kid, do you really want to do a breakup record?

[A]

No.

[B]

Because that's like, them. Even if it's not your wife anymore, that's the mom of your kid. And that's all gonna kind of be. She's public as well.

[A]

I wouldn't do it if we didn't have a kid, to be honest.

[B]

Maybe I would if we didn't have a kid, if it was me. And maybe I'd be like, screw you if it was bad. But if you have a kid that just that. That the. The life has just matured. I feel like that's like taking a shot that you would kind of want back when once your kid got older and you're like, yo, dad, you did a whole record about this.

[A]

Our kid, I mean, our kid. We live two miles apart. Like, he. It's very fluid. We get along fine. I mean, we get along great. Actually. I would. I'm really proud of all three of us for hurt the way that we've handled it, and this is more than I've ever talked about it, so maybe I should stop. But it's not even that, like, I have anything to say. I just. It's our thing. It's our life. And, yeah, I'm not gonna. I don't care enough about my career or about my. I don't know. Just because you can. Should you? Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor.

[B]

Thank you to the presenting sponsor of today's episode, American Express. Between my shows, 25 whistles. Lots to say. Too much access. It's a lot of traveling for work, and I get to attend a bunch of different sporting events. And while the travel can take a toll on me, sometimes all the points I get makes it so much better. With the Amex Platinum, you earn five times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked through amextravel.com on up to $500,000 in flight purchases per year. Plus, you get access to the Centurion Lounge, making travel that much more enjoyable. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. For more information, visit www.americanexpress.com travel. And we're back on the bobbycast. That's also interesting how you said that you don't have anything to say. And I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts and personal things, but if you don't have enough to say, why would you make a record about something you don't want to say anyway? Because that's quite the investment about anything. It doesn't have to be about a breakup. It can be.

[A]

The hard part, too, is pitching songs where you're like, this is very clearly a breakup song. And if I put it out myself, it would kick up so much stuff. You're like, that's not what I meant. I was just writing because that's my job. And I have people. A couple songs out there that are like, this is a hammer. You should just do it yourself. And I'm like, do you understand, like, that why I. Like, that's a terrible idea. Like, that's kind of what I like to say about. About it. I'm not kicking it up, man. And I don't know. I also don't feel like that.

[B]

You also could and create buzz, free buzz. And you've chosen not to. Like, there's a lot of free promotion that you would get out of it by kicking it up. And I think that says something about your character that you've chosen not to.

[A]

Well, but there isn't really.

[B]

I mean, there isn't. What. What do you mean?

[A]

I mean, there's. You're right.

[B]

Cause you don't think that would be on every blog and every. If it's a song.

[A]

But that's the stuff I hate.

[B]

That's my point exactly. But you could have weaponized that for your own career. Aside from you wanting to.

[A]

I don't. I. You're right, I guess. But then it would have. It would have been me lying.

[B]

I think that's. That hadn't stopped people before.

[A]

I know. It would have been me being like, I don't know, man. I love Marin. We talk every day. Like, we have a child together. We're raising them together. It's not a trade off situation. It's a. It's a. We're doing it together. And yeah, some stuff happened that, like, wasn't fun. It wasn't my choice. But it's also like, this is part of it. And life is not linear. Life is not perfect. You kind of roll with it. And you like the things that there are to forgive, you forget. Like, then you just do it. You wake up every day and you do it until you feel better. And then the things that you. That are your fault, you apologize for. And then you try to put it back. I mean, that's what I've had to do. And this is the most I've ever talked about this and I'm.

[B]

You can stop at any time, but you also know you can keep going. And if you're going to talk to.

[A]

Somebody about it, I know I'm always.

[B]

Like, so it can be me. Then you can always text me and be like, hey, cut that out. Like there's, you know, there's like eight avenues.

[A]

Someone tell me when I step in it. But I just, I'm always nervous about that because like I don't, I don't want that to be the public perception of us and I don't want that to be. But mostly I don't want that in my own life. Like I, I don't want to hate anybody that I especially because I, I mean we still do very much care for each other and I don't, I want her to have hits. I want to have a couple more myself too. And I want everybody to be happy and okay. And we are so. Deep breath. The most important thing is that five year old boy and he is thriving. He's an incredible kid. He has some weird questions here and there, but he also has some really funny ones. So whatever, people do it, right?

[B]

What about not showing his face? I have my friend Andy Roddick, who's famous, his wife, Brooklyn famous. They've chosen not to put their kids faces on the Internet. So they, they put smiley faces over. What was that conversation? When did you decide?

[A]

It was not even a conversation really. We just. When he was, when we found out we were pregnant. Just like, we're not doing that. I just, I mean, there's two reasons. I mean the, like, I wish I.

[B]

Could do that to my face at this point too.

[A]

I wish I could just. No kidding. God, I love. Can we go back to like when I was just radio and like I love talking on the radio. Nobody ever lets me do it anymore. It's like I used to like, you have to go, you have to go play the guitar. Pull. But I liked going in studio and being like, hey, we have a half an hour with Ryan and he's gonna play us something and he's gonna talk about, I don't get to do that anymore.

[B]

You do like doing that.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

So here's my guilt. I think everybody hates coming in all the time.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But I'm just gonna tell you, generally speaking, I feel like every guest that ever comes in with a guitar, they hate doing it. They don't want to be there and. And I'm nothing but a bothersome part of their day. That is a means to something else.

[A]

You have given these people whose entire identity is being a public facing artist a microphone. They're thrilled. I am thrilled right now.

[B]

The rational.

[A]

I love talking about myself.

[B]

Yes. The logical part of me gets it. I just feel like anybody doing anything.

[A]

And there's people listening.

[B]

I hear you.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

It does not make sense. But I do feel that it's a burden and nobody wants to do it with me specifically.

[A]

Oh, that's a. I mean, that's. I understand that because I. I feel like every time I. I don't know, I feel like every single song you put out is the last one you'll ever do just because everyone's gonna hate it, so.

[B]

Oh, that's my.

[A]

That's the same thing.

[B]

Yeah, that's. You just did my on sale anxiety, where you're like, everybody's gonna hate this. It's over. This is the last one.

[A]

Well, when you got it, you know it, but. So sometimes you take a big swing and you're like. Every time I've pounded the table for something that I really believed in musically, it's not done.

[B]

Don't you feel, though, it's probably because it's a bit extra in your creative mind, like you're pushing yourself. And at times, I have found when I try to push myself to do things that feel a bit extra new, even new for the environment. Never really received that well because it kind of doesn't fit down the middle. And most things have to be kind of down the middle for most people to understand and like them.

[A]

I can. Yes. I can think of two times where I have been like, this is it. And one was a song called Her Name Was Summer. And I still think it's a amazing song. I thought it was a hit.

[B]

Why wasn't it a hit? I don't know that song.

[A]

Because nobody liked it very much.

[B]

Well, that's a good reason that it wasn't a hit. What about it, though? Like, sonically, I don't know.

[A]

Because it's not. It's not a science. It's an art.

[B]

But it also could have been. It also could have been the business part if you didn't have committed promotion. I mean, that's a.

[A]

It's about getting everybody on the same page. So I was like, telling Janet, my manager at who I was, like, this is it, this is it. And she's like, I love it, I love it. And then it's like, telling the label, like, I love this. I love this. Do you guys love it? And they're like, oh, yeah, cool song. And you're like, why don't you love it as much as me? We're doing it. We're doing it. I know this is right. And then it comes out and you're like, you guys were right. But then one other time, though, I was right. And I had. I said, every other memory is a hit song. And it's a hit song. It's a hit song. It's a hit song. It sounds great. People, like, I get a reaction out of it. And the record company sent it to radio. We got like, 17 ads out of the gate, which is automatic. Like, no, that's like, you know, right away. Like, that's not gonna happen. And I was really disappointed because I knew I was like, I know this can work. And I didn't feel like I got a push right. And that song just went gold, which is crazy. So sometimes you pound the table and you are totally wrong. And sometimes you pound the table, you know, like, yeah, that still went gold, even though it just didn't work at radio. For whether it was the stations that didn't think it fit or it was. Didn't really have a lot of belief from the record side. Like, I have a great relationship with everybody at Sony. I have had massive successes and also failures with that label, and I'm fine to have failures with anybody. Like, that doesn't scare me. Like, the. I like failing and succeeding with people. I don't want you to think that, like. Like my attorney is a good example. I have gone through so many little battles with my attorney, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But I like the fact that, like, the guy that I've won with, I've also lost with because he knows where the bodies are buried. And he's like, he gets me. And you don't win everything. And if you just move on from people immediately, then you're just not going to have, like, a solid foundation or team. Like, there's. You got to realize that there's winning and losing in everything. And so anyway, my point is, like, I had a great relationship with Sony. We had three gold records as an artist, and it's. It's. It's awesome. Like, and sometimes you're really smart and you make them look really smart, and sometimes you think you're really smart and they try to make you look smart, but you just doesn't. It doesn't work. So it's just Music, it's. It's not science. It's an art. And it's. It's fun. That's like part of the game is figuring out, like, what works and what doesn't and what's great and what's. But it's all about people, too. Like, I can't tell you why More Than a Feeling is a hit song, except for every time I listen to it, I'm like, this is awesome. Right? Like, that's the. One of the best rock and roll songs of all time.

[B]

And you mean the original?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

More Than a Feeling. Got it. I thought you were like, I haven't heard your. Your More Than a Feeling.

[A]

That's not a math. But it's not a math problem, right? It's a. It just hits you right in the chest. And those guys, I swear, as soon as they wrote that, knew they had something cool. So I don't know, it's just. This is music. This is the part I like talking about.

[B]

Why is it called Midwest Rock and Roll?

[A]

Cause I just. It is what it is. I loved. I wrote that title. You know how this works? We write titles on our phones all the time. I wish we still. I used to write on legal pa, but I wrote that title in my phone. I was like, that's a song, and it's probably the name of the album. And I have to figure out how to write the album, but I first have to figure out how to write the song. And I grew up in Michigan. I was born in Chicago, grew up in West Michigan. Have made it. A big part of my artist identity is being from that part of the world. Just because I feel like, you know, it's personal and it's injecting a lot of who I am personally into my music. It's how you get people to connect, is what. Whether or not they're from there. That's putting your true self into your art. But it's a coming of age album. It really is. I'm not coming of age anymore. I'm 38 years old. But I wrote about what it was like to leave that place. I still go back all the time. I have tons of friends up there still. I spend a lot of the summer up there. But I just wanted to make an album that felt like we were 16 years old in my basement making our first music together. It sounds like a band. It sounds like. I don't know. I just felt like this is the most Ryan record that I can make right now. And I also have this thing where I was like, kind of. I got a little homesick, weirdly, when I started writing this, And I was like, man, could I have been happy if I just stayed home and just made a life where I grew up? And the answer is like, yeah, man. You could have. You would have always had that thing you thought about, though, where if you didn't go, you didn't try to go experience all this amazing stuff. I've gotten to experience. I've been to every award show. I've been nominated for most of them at this point. I've gotten to tour everywhere. I've had every experience, truly. I mean, I can do a lot more of it, but I have two vinyl at my house with my face on them. That's crazy to me. But you always think, like, man, what if I stayed back? And the answer's like, yeah, man, you could have been really happy, but you also would have always thought about it. So I wanted to write kind of, like, what it meant to, like, explore those roots a little, and I wanted it to be sonically heavier. Hardy put out Mockingbird and the Crow, and it was so heavy, it made me go, okay. Mine's just like this, like, little emo country record. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna fit in perfectly. And it has. It's felt. It felt. It sounds. It sounds. I don't know. It's still a country lyric. I just. It was the record I wanted to make. It was the. The one that I wanted to go slowly. We don't go slow in Nashville. It's like once the single cycle's over, you just go on to the next single. There's never, like, a break. No one ever takes a deep breath and was like, all right, what's next? It's because you're always touring, because you got a huge operation that you have to keep paying for. So I. I wanted. When 23, when I made the record, I wanted it to go slow. I wanted to write it slow and record it slow and then put it out. It was going to be March of 24, and I'm really proud of how we made it. I'm really proud of what the writing is on it. I just think we made a really cool Ryan album, and I'm really proud of it.

[B]

I think when you mention Hardy's record, because listening to your record, the guitar tones don't always feel what would be electric guitar tone, country, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I think you're right. When Hardy comes out with that, it kind of normalizes anything that wasn't Normal six months prior to where your record does sound like a rock. A rock country lyric album. That's interesting. You say it like that and think about it like that, but because Hardy did what he did, and Hardy also just was like, screw it. I'm just gonna be a freaking part of.

[A]

It's just rock.

[B]

Like, no doubt. This is alternative rock, whatever you want to call it. It's hard. But, yeah, I think there's a bit more acceptance of anything in a lane that has been created. Cause somebody else kind of kicked the door open with doing it differently.

[A]

Yeah. And I texted him. I was like, hey, man, I appreciate you putting that out, because I'm going to slide right in there without anybody batting an eye. And it's a cool time to make music, people. It's so weird because you talk about genre, and I feel like we've almost. Re. Like, it's almost become important again when we talk about genre. I feel like five years, like, right before COVID it was like everybody listened to everything. And now I feel like because of where country music has sort of gone, like, behind, like, the Zach Bryan movement in the industry, they called it country adjacent. For a second, I'm like, I wouldn't say that too out loud, but it. I felt like, with that wave of, like, very, like, almost like, almost a live band performance on these records where it's not very. Like, nobody likes tune. Nobody likes. They don't want to be edited too much. They want it to sound like a band playing.

[B]

There's a slickness that's gone, like. Like, purposefully gone.

[A]

I feel like that has sort of made genre matter a little bit more. Like the. The fences kind of came back up a little bit. And I remember we were talking to it like somebody at one of the DSPs, and they're like, well, you kind of have to pick if it's a rock record or a country record. And I was like, five years ago, nobody would have said that to me because it was like genre was sort of like not. Not mattering as much anymore. It seems like it's back a touch, and maybe I'm totally wrong and maybe my head's in a hole somewhere, like, underground. But I probably both.

[B]

I think you ride a little bit and your head's in the hole a little bit too. Yeah, but it should be because you're a creator, right?

[A]

I'm like, I guess so.

[B]

If your head's above.

[A]

I don't. I wasn't like, I don't have, like, my finger in the. In the Wind, like seeing which way the wind's blowing. That's for sure. I. But I do, I do. I love, I love. I feel like even when like bro country came in, like, that sort of took away rock radio for a second. Am I right or wrong about that? Maybe I'm wrong. But like, that was when rock radio was kind of.

[B]

What is that, like 2010?

[A]

Ish. Yes. I was 2011.

[B]

I was still on so, so hard on the CHR pop, hip hop side at that point. I was still living in that world that my memory. I was out of country for like 15 years and that was when I was not here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was not here for the creation of Bro Country.

[A]

When did you get here?

[B]

1313. It was really starting to peak when I got here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So. But I missed that. The birth of bro country.

[A]

Well, I think my point is, like, I feel like country and rock and roll have always sort of had this Venn diagram in the, like in the middle. There's always been overlap and I just took it a little bit further on the rock side than sometimes and. And actually called it that. I don't feel like I stepped out of country music to do it. I actually really. That's the way that I write lyrics. I write them like formatted like that. Like, we have structure too. We have rhymes and we have meter. And it's all really important. And it has to make, like, have a. Some sort of plot. There has to be. There has to be some semblance of story in the lyrics.

[B]

So I feel what you were saying is interesting about genre and I don't know that I feel exactly the same. I think genre is now important. Again, I agree with you fully. But I think each song is like a parcel. I think you can have. I think songs are specifically genre now because you can put out that record. Like, I mean, look at Hardee's, by the way. Some of those songs on the same record.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Went to rock radio.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rock radio, Rock playlist. And some went to country. Yeah. So. But I think it was specific. Each song was specific. And so I do agree with you where genre is now becoming.

[A]

He also split them in two.

[B]

He did.

[A]

So he said these are the rock songs.

[B]

Same project, though.

[A]

These are the country song.

[B]

You're right, same project. But I think like, even. I mean, you can look at other artists. Some of like, Morgan's stuff. Some of that stuff is country. As he is the country music community that doesn't love. Morgan's probably not going to jump on that. I think, like Pop jumped on some of it. I think it's parcel more than it is packaged now.

[A]

The biggest country song in the world this second that we're recording this is Bailey Zimmerman and Big X the plug, which is insane. Like that, I guess, is to your point where you're like, it don't matter that much.

[B]

It does, but it doesn't. Right. It's the same. It's the same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think everything needs to be defined again. Or it's cool to define again because it's cool to say what, you rep.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I don't think you have to rep all on the same rep the same team. Like, it's like you. You're part of Ohio State fan, part Michigan fan.

[A]

Oh, God. You can't do that. It was a. It was a hell of a transition, but that just hurt. Oh, God.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you got one.

[A]

I mean, it doesn't hurt that much.

[B]

You got one. Yeah. You're good.

[A]

Yeah. That was fun.

[B]

You're good.

[A]

That was my favorite Michigan game, I think, ever I would.

[B]

Okay. The game specifically. That was awesome. I love the flag, playing on the fights. And I. I'm not a big Ohio State guy. I like Michigan more than I like Ohio State. But you won one the year before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you can't be that mad, especially when you also win one heads up the year they win theirs.

[A]

Didn't care. I mean, it was amazing. I just. I like, hey, man, go win your natty. That's great.

[B]

Yeah. Like, we just got one and we just beat you. The year you won it and they beat Bama.

[A]

Oh, my God. It was a great year. I just kept all year. There were games I didn't even watch. I was like, this team's not very good. But last year was fun. So I just kept saying, last year was fun all year long. And then they ended up finishing great. It was so fun.

[B]

They actually bounced.

[A]

Have you been to the big house?

[B]

No. Why would I go?

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

Why would I go?

[A]

It's cold.

[B]

I have no interest in that.

[A]

Go early.

[B]

I'll be at Arkansas games.

[A]

That's what that was. That's basically the answer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would go if, like, work was like, you know Castle, who I do the NFL show with? Like, he works for Big Ten. So he goes and he travels around and he was like, hey, come. I would go, but why would I go? There are coaches we go hang out with, like, Shane Beamer, who I love South Carolina. He's like, come to a game I literally said, why would I come to a game?

[A]

You'll come when Arkansas goes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, why would I come to your game? Like, respectfully, like, I don't give a crap. I'm. If I have a Saturday, I'm going to go watch Arkansas play.

[A]

I kind of feel the same way. I did do this. A real. I. It was. We had a golf tournament this last year, this last fall, and it got rained out. And I was like, I am not sitting in my house all weekend by myself in the rain. I have to go do something. Does anyone want to go to Chicago? And my buddy William was like, let's drive to the Notre Dame game in the morning. And we left at 5 in the morning.

[B]

You drove.

[A]

Drove to South Bend, saw him play Louisville. And that Tyler Schuck kid is really good.

[B]

He is really good. He's been coming on strong. The draft's about to happen.

[A]

We watched him just throw darts all day. And then we were gonna go drive back to Evansville and go play craps in the casino. Home of Don Mattingly was awesome.

[B]

You ever met him?

[A]

Yes. If I texted Don Mattingly right now, he would text me back.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

He's awesome, by the way.

[B]

Don Mattingly for everybody. That's another sports fan. New York Yankee first baseman, like, legend for when we were.

[A]

Should be in the hall of Fame. Is not. Yeah. I played his foundation event in Evansville. It was amazing.

[B]

He's still in Evansville.

[A]

He's still in Evansville. Good for Indiana. He's a. And he's a great, great guy. Really. His. All of the money from his foundation, I believe, goes back into that community, which is amazing.

[B]

Why'd you go to the Notre Dame game?

[A]

Because there's nothing else to do.

[B]

There's.

[A]

I don't know. I wanted to go to Chicago. William said he would rather go to South Bend. Some of my buddies from Michigan met us down there. I had never been to Touchdown Jesus.

[B]

How'd you feel about it?

[A]

It was incredible. Really. It was so cool. Like, that's. That's the cool part about sports is going and seeing, like, the cathedrals. Like, I'm not a Yankees fan, but going to Yankee Stadium is like. It is. You just feel something.

[B]

Yeah, there's so much. Well, before they built it. Because I went to the old Yankee Stadium, too, before they switched. Yeah, you're right.

[A]

The new one is pretty special.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

It's like.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

I can't believe they. It's sort of like going to the Cowboys Stadium, where you're like, how is this thing so big? Wrigley Field is one of those places more so than Yankee Stadium, where you're like, wow, I can't believe I'm here.

[B]

So Wrigley Field, to me, the Cubs, to me, are what Michigan did to you this last year once 2016 happened. I was like, we're good. I'm good.

[A]

It does take. You take the foot off the gas a touch.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, well, I was just, you know, being a Cubs fan my whole life and my stepdad being a Cubs fan. Cause he passed it on to me. It was the appreciation that there were two generations that lived their full lives and never got to see something they love dearly, which is the Chicago Cubs win a championship. It had been 1908 since they'd won it, 45 since they'd even been. And for them to win that, there was an appreciation of, oh, I got to see. It's kind of like you always wonder if your generation is going to be at the end of the world, and odds are it's not. You know, odds are we're going to come and live, blink, die. Whatever happens happens. And we weren't here for the end of the world. But you're like, I wonder if it's going to be ours where the end of the world actually happens, like a meteor or nuclear. I feel like I got to be the generation where the Cubs won a World Series. That was the version of the end of the world that I was lucky to be a part of. And I think there was an appreciation. And I watch a lot, and I'm still. Even since 2016, we're talking nine years, I'm like, oh, yeah, we're still. We're good. I want to win. We're good.

[A]

What was the first Red Sox World Series? Was it 09?

[B]

You talking about the one when they beat the Yankees or they came back three on the Yankees before the.

[A]

They got to the one year was that, dude, I.04. Sorry. Thank you.04. So inside of a. It's crazy. So.04 and 16, both curses broken. Babe Ruth and Gil, I thought they were closer together, but it is cool to grow up your entire life. And the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs have, like. They are cursed. They're cursed franchises. And to see both curses broken. You know, when you still really, really love sports was. Was really special. People. People talk about that. I mean, that Cubs team was so likable, too. Like, those are beloved players forever. And not Even if they won. Like, I think they'd be that way if they didn't win. Like, people love Schwarber and Rizzo and Javi, when he was wearing a Cubs uniform and it's. It is Chris Bryant. Well, he.

[B]

Those guys are always going to be Cubs in my mind, even though they're not even. They went to the Rockies and the Yankees and you can they. They're still Cubs, because they are. Theo Epstein is the guy. He even.

[A]

You know him?

[B]

I do not know. I know him from worshiping him.

[A]

Yeah, He. What a genius.

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't. Does it in Boston, then goes to Chicago and does it.

[A]

Yeah. How many times have you thrown out. We've actually thrown out the first pitch on the same weekend in Wrigley, when.

[B]

I was doing mine.

[A]

You were there, I was there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was awesome. And I got to do it the next day.

[B]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's like the, like, the coolest thing thinking about that. It's one of my favorite parts of success. Not me throwing the first pitch, but I got to take my stepdad. He was with me. He'd never even got to go. He'd never been to Wrigley. And so to take him and not only go to a game, but to take him on the field, like, that's really the coolest part.

[A]

Can I tell you about my dad at Wrigley the next day when I got to do it? So I know all the people at the Cubs because of Brian o' Connell. I was on the Florida Georgia Line tour, and. And I was booked for the whole tour. I was first of four, so I got to play, like, I think it was 20 minutes maybe. But it was fun. It was worth it. It was great. It was getting moving. And I'm still, you know, friends with those guys. They're, like, really nice. Whatever. Anyway, that tour was so fun. And the Saturday show of the weekend in August, I wasn't on the bill because Backstreet Boys were playing the. The stadium shows. So all their, like, baseball stadium shows they were doing. Backstreet Boys were on, not me, which I understand. Bigger pool. So I said, hey, they're playing Wrigley Field tomorrow. I think we were in Minneapolis or something. I was like, hey, can I. I. Can I just ride a bus? I want to go to the show. I have nothing to do, like, which is rare. But like I said, I'm supposed to be touring this weekend. I'm not on the bill, otherwise, I just go home. So I go to the show, I wake Up. We're at Wrigley. Brian has his bus out there. And I walk over. I'm like, what are we doing today? And he's like, have you met everybody here? I was like, I love Chicago, but I don't know anyone at the Cubs. I'm a new artist, and everything's new for me. He's like, I gotta introduce you to my buddy. So he introduces me to this guy named Jason McCloud. Takes me through the clubhouse, and he lets me hit in the tunnel. He starts throwing me bp. And I, for whatever reason, like, got into a couple and hit him real hard. And he's like, hey, you should come back and hit on the field. And I was like, I will text you tomorrow. And I did. I texted him the next day. I was like, when can I come hit on the field? He's like, one of these three days. And so Cubs are playing the brewers, and he says, if you come up this day, you can hit on the field. And so they get it to where I'm throwing out the pitch, too. So I get my dad and my brother and my best friend from Michigan, who's a huge Cubs fan. I was like, we're all going to this game. Marin came up. I saw you the day before. And we get to the game, and he's. I'm like, all right. I get to, like, hit on the field, in the cage. And Jason comes up to me and he says, cubs aren't taking BP today. It's like, damn it. Okay, well, that's cool. Like, I'm still going to get to throw out the first pitch at Wrigley Field. That's incredible. And he's like, give me a second. And he goes and gets the bp. Like the coach, whatever the. Whoever their BP guy is, he's like, this guy will throw you both 10 pitches. So I get in the cage, it's hard to see the ball. And I start hitting the ball. At Wrigley Field, I got one of the warning track, which was pretty dope with a wood bat. But the brewers see this dude with long hair, jeans, a Cubs jersey that says Hurt on the back. And they start heckling me from right field because they're playing long toss. And so they start booing me because that's hard to hit the ball. Cause you can't pick it up out of the guy's hand. That's why they have those. That's just so that your depth perceptions. It's not like Little League. And I get into a couple, and they're still Heckling me. I'm like, that's pretty cool to get heckled by the Brewers. And all of a sudden, I'm like, where's my dad? And I can't find him anywhere. And, like, anyone seen my dad? And I'm like, no, no, no. And all of a sudden, I see my dad is running in from center field. He has been shagging balls and picking up all of the balls that the brewers have been tossing over to him. I was like, where have you been? He's like, oh, I was in center field shagging balls, and then everybody in the crowd started asking me for baseball. So I just started throwing baseballs up into the crowd. They all love me. I was like, they have no idea who you are, but it was fantastic. It was, like, one of the greatest memories that I'll ever have is, like, my dad just running in from center field, being like, yeah, I've been just playing around in the outfield at Wrigley.

[B]

So, like, getting to see your dad be a kid, it was.

[A]

And he grew up in Chicago, and so it was, like, a big deal for him, too, and whatever. That dad shagging balls in center field and just pretending like he's a player, throwing him to all the fans is crazy to me. The Bobbycast. We'll be right back.

[B]

Thank you to the presenting sponsor of today's episode, American Express. I'm always traveling for work, which means I'm constantly trying new restaurants in a bunch of different cities. Some good, some bad. And while I love most of the food I try the rewards I am earning with my Amex Gold card while eating in these different cities is the best part. With AMEX Gold, you earn four times membership rewards points on purchases at restaurants on up to $50,000 per year. And now you can leave the restaurant and get straight to the action. With access to card member entrances at select venues. That's the powerful backing of American Express card member entrance access not limited to AMEX Gold. Card terms apply. Learn [e-mail] withamx this is the Bobbycast. Why did you move here?

[A]

To go to college, but really in my heart to make music.

[B]

Why did you pick the college?

[A]

I wanted to be in Nashville, so I went to Belmont. I got a econ degree and sociology degree. I took one music business class there, which I think is really important. It's. It really, like, I remember almost everything that I learned in that class, and it. I feel like a lot of people who do this for a living don't always understand how the money moves And I feel like I got a head start just by taking one class, like, understanding, like, this is kind of how all of this works. And so I ended up, when I got out of college, getting a contract job doing research for the United Methodist Church. Did, like, a lot of stats work on a contract basis, so I didn't have hours so I could write during the day. So then I started writing songs with Aaron, who's my producer, and he's written songs for, like, two number ones for Scotty McCreary and the last Tim McGraw number one. And then Joey Hyde, who wrote Made for your for Jake Owen and Steve moakler and Matt McGinn and Jeb Holmes. And we all started coming up together and getting our foot in the door making recordings and all got publishing deals at the same time. And so. But I still had that job until I had a number one song at radio. So I had. My first single was the Swan Brothers after I signed at Universal as a writer, and that went to, like, number 12 or 11.

[B]

What was that? What was that one?

[A]

It was called later on. It was their. Their first single after the Voice. And then I had the lowest charting song in the history, Frasco Flats. Payback was me.

[B]

What's the lowest charting song?

[A]

2021. I think it got to 21, but it stop. Like, flew. Flew up that high and just stopped for, like, it was excruciating to watch it not move. But it's happened to me. I mean, that's just part of the game. And I loved the record. I was such. It was such a huge moment for me to just be on that album. And I just. I don't say lowest charting song because I'm like, it's just on me, man. It's just. I wrote the song, so. And then the next thing we had was Blake Shelton being the number one song with Ashley Monroe. And that's when I quit my job, was when that one. I was like, okay, I probably need to devote all of my time to this.

[B]

So lonely tonight.

[A]

Mm. That's it.

[B]

Sing the chorus.

[A]

We don't have to be lonely tonight.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And then Ashley goes. Need you, aren't you. I'm right here.

[B]

Well, not.

[A]

The demo is really cool too. Sarah Hayes sang the. The female part.

[B]

Were you writing for you at all at this time?

[A]

Nope. I just wanted to be a writer, and I think about it all the time.

[B]

Did you want to just be a writer when you moved here to begin with?

[A]

Once you find out, yeah, I knew about, like, the writing. Commit, like, music Row staff writers. And I knew about like writing. I knew that was a job to just be a songwriter because of. A lot of people find out that that's a job when they get here. But yeah, I just. It's a. That's just what I wanted to do, I guess.

[B]

Were the ambitions to be a front facing musical star when you moved here to go to school?

[A]

No, it was not. But you know, here I am. I'm like. I actually got so right when Lonely Tonight went number one. Taylor and Jim Coutinho from Sony. Taylor, Lindsey Sutherland and Jim Catino kind of came around there asking if I would want to be an artist on their label. And I said, no, thank you. I really love this. And literally a year later I said yes.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I think about that all the time.

[B]

They catch you on a good day or did you just really want to do it for a long time and you finally had the courage?

[A]

I wanted to make records. I wanted to make records like I did. I did want to do that. The travel part and the touring part always scared me. And that still does.

[B]

Even before you were burnt out from touring, it scared you to.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we have the same anxiety about it. It's like no one's gonna come. So I don't know. I just always loved. I love writing. It's like the thing. I don't know why it is. That's how I measure my success still is. Like, how many songs do I have on the chart at any given time? I have one right now, but which one? John Party Friday Night Heartbreaker, which I think is so dope.

[B]

I think that song's a jam. And what they did did with it sonically as well. This is a testament to both of you guys. It's an awesome song.

[A]

Thank you. There's a lot of writers on it, so I can't take a lot of credit for some of it.

[B]

Then you can say it quieter.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

[B]

And what they did, we all.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

They sonically crushed it.

[A]

It's such a badass with John.

[B]

Oh yeah. Like John's able to do that every time. Like it gets a little cooler, but a little more specifically John. And it's like he pushes the boundaries of country but by being even more country but by also introducing new instrumentation. I don't know. John just. His stuff sounds so different, yet he's more country than ever.

[A]

Whenever someone like, I love all John's records and Bart Butler is a great producer. And when they said he's working with Jay Joyce Everybody always like when there's a producer shift is like. And it came out so great. The whole album is so great.

[B]

It doesn't feel pandering either.

[A]

No, it feels like a, like a timeless great album.

[B]

Yeah, that song is.

[A]

And I'm really proud to be part of it. So that's how I measure myself still though, is like not as an artist. I don't care about. I have no idea how many streams I have on this album or on any songs. That's not my measuring stick. My measuring stick is how many songs am I getting cut by other artists.

[B]

What song has paid you the most?

[A]

Heartless. I wrote Heartless for Morgan.

[B]

Oh, and the Diplo. What song? That was country. Purely country. Because that Diplo record was kind of experimental country. I liked it a lot. But what about traditionally? What song has been most successful for you?

[A]

I don't know. I would have to, I don't look at statements a whole lot. It's not a numbers guy.

[B]

Is there a database that tells you that stuff?

[A]

Sure. You can go right into your BMI account and it's all there. It's all sitting right there. I, I, I would have to say, man, this the last. The Jordan Davis song I wrote did really well commercially. That one surprised me with what My World spins. What my world spins around is. Yeah, that was, I think did really well on that one. And then what if I Never get over you was a massive, massive hit.

[B]

Lady A.

[A]

It got nominated for single of the year and we won NSAI award for top 10 songs. I wish I'd written that song was really massive for me too. Oh, and Lonely Tonight was a two way. So instead of splitting the royalties three or four ways, we split it two ways. So that was a really. But that was my first one, so I didn't have any context for any of that. But yeah, I mean, it's a crazy way to make a living and I'm really blessed to have gotten to do it. Truly. I mean, I, it's, it's definitely like walking a tightrope. And you feel. Some days you feel like you're doing great and some days you feel like you are never going to have another hit or make another dollar, but you know what that's like.

[B]

Let's take a quick pause for a.

[A]

Message from our sponsor.

[B]

Thank you to the presenting sponsor of today's episode, American Express. I'm always traveling for work, which means I'm constantly trying new restaurants in a bunch of different cities, some good, some bad. And while I love most of the food I try, the rewards I am earning with my AMEX Gold Card while eating in these different cities is the best part. With AMEX Gold you earn four times membership rewards points on purchases at restaurants on up to $50,000 per year. And now you can leave the restaurant and get straight to the action with access to card member entrances at select venues. That's the powerful backing of American Express Card member entrance access not limited to AMEX Gold Card terms apply. Learn more@american express.com withamx and we're back on the bobbycast. You said something interesting. You were glad you took that music business class. I feel the same way about taking Media Law. I took one semester because usually, and fortunately for me, I didn't have to learn most of it this way. Usually we learn that stuff when it goes wrong and we have to learn it. I think I had a brief education on some of the law and contract things because of a course that I took. I'm so thankful I took it because there have been other parts of my career where I had to learn the hard way, where I didn't even know until I did it. Way wrong.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think in this town, in that music business class, most of my friends or I would even say peers have had to learn because they sign things. It's not like a Backstreet Boy deal or an NSYNC deal back in the day where they get but they signed deals where they didn't quite understand what was going on and it was only the upon understanding that they learned what not to do.

[A]

Record deals are a lot like that sometimes because there's so much going into it and there's so many deal points. Publishing deals are a little simpler, but they're just. There's just confusing because nobody knows really where the money's coming from and like how things are recouped.

[B]

Like feels like Ozark, you know where the money's coming from.

[A]

It is. I mean, when you think about it, like let's talk about publishing money, where it comes from. So I write a song and Luke Bryan records it and he says this is going to be my second single. This record, Sunrise, Sunburn, Sunset, it's going on the radio.

[B]

Which you did right, by the way. This is not a hypothetical.

[A]

This is what.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it goes on the radio, flies up the charts, becomes a big number one song. They make T shirts in Florida. That's the difference between a copyright and a trademark, by the way, is I don't make any money off the T shirts, but I make money off the song getting played. But, okay, so my song is number one on radio. I get paid a lot of money, right? Well, why? Where does it come from? Well, it comes from bmi. Well, how does BMI have any money? It's like, well, in order for these radio stations to play this music and make a profit by selling advertising, they have to buy a blanket compulsory license. So all of that licensing money, which comes from advertising gets put in this giant, giant pool that they split up based on essentially, your market share of that pool of money. So just understanding what we're really doing as songwriters and as artists on the radio is selling advertising. And that's why when they test songs, they want them. They don't want anyone changing the channel because they know right after this song, they got a car commercial. And that car commercial, that car dealership's their best client. So pays for a lot of stuff, I think, understanding, like, that part of it, the thing that people don't understand, too, and it gets really confusing, is recoupment. So it's like, I got. Let's say I had $100,000 on this publishing deal because they've paid me a $50,000 salary for two years. And we didn't spend any other money. It's just $100,000. How do I recoup that? Like, what does it mean to recoup that money? And it's like, well, some of the money that's in this big pile goes toward recouping that. So let's say. And it's kind of almost too much to explain on the air how that works. If I had a napkin, I could show you exactly how it happens. But it is confusing in the music business. It's not the same as, like, well, I sold a car for $20,000, and I get a 5% commission. $20,000, and I Get a 5% commission on that $20,000. It's like, well, some money goes to recoupment and some money doesn't, depending on what. What kind of royalty it is.

[B]

And also, the money could be different based on what share? What we called a market share. I think it's a great term for it based on what market share you had.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So, I mean, the two. You could have two songs hit number one and get paid differently.

[A]

Very differently. And also, this is a weird part, too. You can have a massive hit. I remember, like, you'd have Luke and Kenny Chesney songs. And when I first started doing this, that would go, like, number one in, like, 11 or 12 weeks. And you'd be like that's a massive hit. And then you'd have some that would go in 40 or 50 weeks. I've had those too. And the ones that go 40 or 50 weeks rack up so many spins a greater market share that they pay out so much better than the one that is a bigger hit that flew up the charts because it just didn't get as much airplay because it happened so fast. Right. Like that's a crazy. That's crazy to think that the bigger hit pays less. But sometimes that's true. I mean over time. No, over time the giant hits pay the. The big bucks. But.

[B]

And also the value of. But you're right. First of all on. On that point. Yes. Song that takes 12 weeks doesn't exist and doesn't have to do the work as much I picture like an hourly worker. The 40 week number one song has had to work a lot of hours to get number one.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you got to pay him by the hour.

[A]

That's a good way to put it.

[B]

So he's going to make a lot more money than the 11 week quicker contract job that's in and out. If I'm comparing it to like work that I did.

[A]

Sure. But which one's more valuable in the long run? Well, I would say it would. You'd have to. There's a lot of different things that go into it.

[B]

And there's value in the writer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean you. You quickly have another number one song that's now part of your story that allows you to get better rights with artists who often get number ones.

[A]

Isn't it crazy too that that's the way that we still talk about success in this town is how many number ones do you have? It's. It's. As a writer we still like. It is you wear it like a hat.

[B]

But it's almost like what else are you gonna quantify?

[A]

That's exactly right. I'm not. I mean streams the streaming royalties until they figure out how to actually do it.

[B]

You walk around with a stream counter on like I don't have any number ones But I got 17 billion streams.

[A]

Yeah. Times 00001 cent. That's how much money I made today. Yeah. It's not as sexy of a. Counting half pennies is not super glamorous.

[B]

That's for sure. Also too many numbers. Let me ask you this about the record. How do you know you're done?

[A]

I think the easiest answer is you're done when you. When the deadline comes. I don't know if you ever are. There's parts of my album I still am. Like, I wish we didn't do that, or I wish we would have. I wish I would have caught that or I wish I would have. Aaron's the same way. He won't tell me what they are, but, you know, I have. Like, you're done when it's time to be done. As far as writing it goes.

[B]

No, I meant the project, like.

[A]

No, it's done.

[B]

Like when you. When you're sealing it. It's done when it has to be done.

[A]

It's done. Yeah, it's done when your producer's very annoyed at you.

[B]

But it's never actually done.

[A]

No, I don't think so. That's just like I. The. The song Funerals is one for me where I'm like, I wanted it to sound just a little something else. And I tried it. I had like three or four mix mixes on it, and it just. The one that. The best version was the last one, and that's what we went with. But it's still. You still have things in your head of like, I wish. Like, I hear it a little different, but that's just part of creative work. I would love to ask the same question of a visual artist.

[B]

I would think any artist is going to say, it's never done. It just has to be done at a point. It has to be done or you don't make money to eat so you can make other art.

[A]

I think, too, I've used this and it's not a good. It's not a good way to talk about your excitement. But I have said, just get it off my desk. I just. That was a big deal for me, was like, I mean, and it's really been hard because I don't. My heart is not all the way in it. The way that it was. It was like part of this to me was something we did together. And so finding a new way to make music, just me. I mean, there's. There's a million ways you could slice that up, but it's been hard to get my heart back into it. And so for me, like, this album was like, I need to get it off my desk. I need to get it done, move it. I need to do it, get it out and then so that I can move on to the next thing, whatever that is. And that is how art works, I think is. Is you explore something and you give it everything. Like, I gave this thing everything I had, everything I had to give. I am a dry sponge currently.

[B]

Do you Feel like you gave it so much that it started to be detrimental where you're continuing, because you know it's not over. You've given it everything you have healthily that you could obsess and actually make it worse because you become obsessed with it. So you need it off your desk.

[A]

That's mixed. That's when mixing. Like those guys, just those mix. The mix of engineers just want to push artists into the river. Like tweaks on the sixth mix, and you're like, dude, it's probably fine. It's probably fine. Yes. I think you give as much as you can, and then there's a deadline, and then it's time to. It's time to go do something else. So whenever we do the next record, I want to do eight songs. I have a title. I have all the songs written. I know what I want it to be. I'm very excited for that.

[B]

One last question. You mentioned funeral, but I was gonna ask about Paul. Yes, that's Paul McCartney. Right?

[A]

Paul McCartney.

[B]

You met him.

[A]

I met him at a Grammy party.

[B]

Give me the story.

[A]

All right, I'm gonna give you the longer version because this is a podcast.

[B]

You're allowed. I. I welcome it.

[A]

I. We were nominated for Circles around this Town, and we went to the Grammys, sat next to Asher McBride, had a great time. Silk Sonic played. I was right there. We wanted to go to three parties. We had to go to our friend Greg Kirsten's party that he threw with Dave Grohl, but that was in a totally different part of Los Angeles than the Sony party, which was the label party we had to go to. And then we wanted to go to Taylor's party and Jack Antonoff's party. Taylor Taylor Swift. They were very nice to invite us.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And. And. But we're not even gonna get to that. Cause all the fun stuff, the song stuff, happened at the first party. So we go. We leave the Grammys. We're like, hey, we have to go to the Greg party first because we really want to go. But it's not near the other. It's not near Hollywood, which is where the Sony and the Taylor party.

[B]

Taylor Swift party.

[A]

The other part of town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're all the way down at Greg and Dave's party. This is. I'm gonna pick all these names up off the floor before I leave, so don't worry. I won't leave.

[B]

It's not even picking up. You don't say last name, so we don't even know sometimes.

[A]

So I get to Go to the Greg Kirsten and Dave Grohl party. And we go, and my mom and my sister are in the van with us because they went. They'd never been to the grammys. It was so fun. And Maren, Janet d. Dallas and a driver, I believe. And we go to the party and we get there like obnoxiously early. And there's no one there. There's no food, there's not even beer out. And I have my tuxedo on from the Grammys still. I have this like, Frank Sinatra tuxedo. And I decided to take my clip on off, cuz. Do you know how to tie a bow tie?

[B]

I do not. I clip.

[A]

Not one person knows how to do it. So I have a clip on. I take my clip on off, I open up my shirt, have my real bow tie hanging down the placard of my shirt. We're hanging out at the party. People start to trickle in. We're hanging out with Greg Kirsten who makes Marin's records. His family's amazing. They've always been really kind to us. And it gets to be about time where we really do need to get to the Sony party. And we go up to Greg and hey, Greg, we love you. Thank you. We'll see you soon. Wish we could stay longer, but we have to go to the other party. And he's like, oh, you gotta meet Paul. Okay, we don't have time to meet your friend Paul, but we'll see you like when we see you, but thank you. And he's like, no, no, no, come on. He grabs us, run across the room and like, we get closer. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that is Paul mccartney and his wife. And I like, kind of freeze. And she freezes. And he just brings us right up. Hey, Paul, these are my friends Marin and Ryan. And I don't. Neither one of us have anything to say. And he goes, hey, I'm Paul. Did you guys win a grammy? Uh. And he's like, me neither. Okay. And he starts talking and he grabs my. My tie, my bow tie. After we've made exchanged pleasantries and I'm not gonna do a British accent, I would not disrespect sir Paul by massacring my interpretation of that. But he starts messing with my untied bow tie. He's like, my wife, I love the way you're wearing your tie. My wife wants me to wear like this to these things more often. I said, well, these things as in the Grammys. Okay, got it. These things, these kind of things. And so he's messing with my tie. He looks over his shoulder, he's like, hey, honey, come here and look at this guy's tie. So he's like, messing with it. And she's like, oh, I love the way you're wearing your tie. I wish he'd wear it more like, like that more often. And he's like, yeah, okay. I said, do you know how to tie one? He's like, no, nobody does. I was like, absolutely nobody does. And I said, well, Paul, we have to go to our label party. It was really nice to meet you. And we left and got in the van. And we're just sitting there kind of like in silence. And I just said, I forgot to get a picture. That's the only thing anyone said was, I forgot to get a picture. And so over the next, like six months is how long it took me to write this song. I wrote the story of meeting Paul. And it, it's really special to me. I mean, it's. I, I. The song, if you haven't heard it, starts with, I met Paul McCartney at an LA after party in a suit, tux made by Armani, wondering what I'm doing here. So there's like imposter syndrome at the beginning. And it goes through, like, talking to Paul. Everything that we talked about is in the song. And then I tie it back to, like, why that was such a moment for me. It's like when I was a kid, my dad had a 6 CD changer and then he had a little turntable. So on the 6 CD changer, I remember, like, core memory, being a little kid. And hey, I had Randy Travis, the, that won the CD with Forever and Ever Amen on it, that massive, massive album. And I remember that was the first country song I ever heard. And then he would also, he had these old Beatles 45s that he got, I think from his older brothers. And he would play these 45s, like on the weekends. And so my first introduction to music was like, was that it was like Randy Travis on the CD and let it be on these old records. And so for me to, like, have that full circle moment in music, and my family has sacrificed so much for me to be able to do this. They all live here now, which is crazy. Like, one by one they've become, they've all gotten here. And part of that's because this is like where our family, our family wants to be close. And this is where I was. And so everybody sort of ended up here. But to have like a song on your record that is better than a picture. Like, it is the entire memory. But it's more than that. It's like, the reason I make music is because my dad played Let It Be on a record when I was a kid, and it made me fall in love with it and made me want to do it. It made me want to take piano lessons. And so to have the opportunity where you get to meet your hero, they say, don't like. And there's a lot of times you do meet your heroes, and you're like, that guy's kind of a jerk. Like, Paul McCartney was the nicest human I've ever met. He's a professional at meeting people. He's a professional at disarming people and making them feel comfortable. And he's just. He's a guy, like, he's the best in the world that has. He's the biggest rock star in the history of the world to me. And he was nice enough to just ask us if we won a Grammy that day. And I know it's the Grammys. It's. It didn't feel. It felt like he was asking, when's your birthday? You know what I mean? Like, it felt that personal to me, and that's. I don't know, man. You talk. We talk about the things we don't like doing this. Like, I don't like touring. I don't like being away from my son. I don't like being away from home. I don't like that feeling of, like, I hope people come. But I love music. I love making records, and I love writing songs. I love figuring out how to make an artist feel special. That day I did it yesterday. I loved just trying to get on this guy's record, doing the best I can to help him find his voice, right? Like, those are the things that I will always love and I hope I always get to do. But when you meet someone like that, and I've gotten to meet Elton John, I've gotten to. I met. I mean, Dave Grohl was at that party. Jeff Probst was at that party. They're both very incredibly nice people. They've been incredibly nice to us. Like, man, the opportunities that I've gotten to do because I can write songs like that I've gotten. Because I can write songs are things that I would never trade. But when you was one of those, like, mountaintop moments and also perspective moments where, like, how lucky could you possibly be, man? This is like, you get to do things that you never dreamed you'd ever get to do. And so full circle back to Midwest rock and roll. What if you. What if you stayed home? Could you be happy? Yeah. Yeah, man. But, like, look at what happened. Like, it's so beautiful. Like, what. Even the hard moments getting to do this is its own reward. I don't. You asked me, like, how much money did I make off those songs? Like, man, I don't know Enough. Like, plenty.

[B]

I didn't ask you how much is a whole different question.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

But. But that's not the thing that makes me excited. It makes me relieved when it shows up every quarter because I'm like, thank God I can. Like, I'm okay. But, like, that's not the thing that makes me happy or excited. The thing that makes me happy is the making of it. Like, that first moment. You guys know what I'm talking about. It's like that first moment where you're like, oh, my God, we got it. There's nothing in the world like that. When they send the demo and you listen to it in your car, like, 10 times. There's nothing like that. There's nothing like getting to do this. And I hope I get to do it one way or another forever. I know I'll never. Like, there's a time you'll write your last song. At some point. You will have your last hit at some point. Maybe I've already had it. I hope not. But you get, like, getting to write songs every day is its own reward. It's its own privilege. It's the greatest job on the planet. And also, it's pretty. Like, you show up at 11 and leave at 3. Like, how hard could it be? But I truly do love it. I'm so blessed to get to do this. I'm so blessed to still be in the game, and I hope I can continue to for a long time.

[B]

Midwest rock and roll. 12 songs. You guys check it out. And that's fun, dude.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

We did over an hour. We haven't started recording yet, but we like this.

[A]

All right.

[B]

It's been a good one.

[A]

I'll hit it now.

[B]

Yeah, hit. Hit the red button.

[A]

How often do you do that? Joke? I like it.

[B]

Only with people we like.

[A]

All right, good.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I appreciate you.

[B]

And why. There's actually a reason as to why we only do with people we like is because I only do it with people that we do a significant amount of time with. Because if we did, sometimes we'll do 38 minutes.

[A]

Some people will take you up on it.

[B]

Well, no it's. I won't do that joke if it doesn't go an extra amount of time. And I only do extra amounts of time with people or with situations that I feel are gonna be either beneficial to me personally or to the podcast. So there you go.

[A]

That's a great joke.

[B]

Thank you. RyanHerd. Follow him. Check out the music. Ryan, good to see you, buddy.

[A]

You wanna play some golf soon?

[B]

No. All right. Thanks for listening to a BobbyKast production.

[A]

This is an I heart podcast.