Cancer, Chemo & Controversy: A Candid Talk with a Veterinary Oncologist

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bobby Bones Show Episode: Cancer, Chemo & Controversy: A Candid Talk with a Veterinary Oncologist
Release Date: May 10, 2025
Host/Author: Premiere Networks

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of The Bobby Bones Show, host Dr. Josie Horch welcomes her friend and colleague, Dr. Daniela Courts, a board-certified veterinary oncologist based in Washington D.C. Together, they delve into the sensitive and often misunderstood topic of cancer in pets, discussing everything from diagnosis to treatment options and the emotional toll it takes on both animals and their owners.

Personal Backgrounds

Dr. Horch and Dr. Courts reminisce about their time together in veterinary school at Ohio State, sharing fond memories that highlight their strong friendship and professional bond. This personal connection sets the stage for an open and candid conversation about the challenges of veterinary oncology.

Choosing Veterinary Oncology

Dr. Courts explains her path to becoming a veterinary oncologist, revealing that her specialization was deeply influenced by her personal experience with her golden retriever, Sonny, who battled three cancers before passing away. She states, "It was really a turning point for me to kind of decide into a specialty that involves bonding with clients on a really deep level." [02:43]

Diagnosing Cancer in Pets

The conversation moves to the importance of early detection and proactive care. Dr. Courts emphasizes the role of pet owners as advocates, encouraging regular physical exams and vigilance for any unusual lumps or behavioral changes. She advises, "Be your pet's biggest and most important advocate." [17:59]

Treatment Options: Chemotherapy and Radiation

Dr. Courts provides an in-depth overview of chemotherapy and radiation therapy in veterinary medicine. She reassures listeners that, unlike many misconceptions, pets often tolerate chemotherapy well with minimal side effects. For instance, she shares a touching story about a doodle named Callie who remained spirited despite losing her hair to chemotherapy, highlighting the emotional support pets receive from their families during treatment. [30:56]

Quality of Life Considerations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on balancing treatment with quality of life. Dr. Courts underscores that the primary goal in veterinary oncology is to ensure pets live comfortably and happily, rather than solely focusing on extending their lives. She advises pet owners to make informed decisions based on their family's needs and the pet's well-being, stating, "Chemo is not for everybody... Palliative care... is doing your job." [40:31]

Common Cancers in Dogs and Cats

Dr. Courts breaks down the most prevalent cancers seen in pets:

• Dogs: Canine lymphoma and mast cell tumors are the most common, with lymphoma being highly treatable and rewarding to manage.
• Cats: Gastrointestinal lymphoma is prevalent, often presenting with weight loss and digestive issues. She notes, "Cats are tricky... they don't really show until it's severe." [24:02]

Myths and Misconceptions

The duo debunks several myths surrounding cancer in pets, including:

• Chemo Side Effects: Contrary to popular belief, pets generally experience mild side effects from chemotherapy.
• Diet and Cancer: There is no scientific evidence supporting specific diets or supplements, like mushrooms, as cures or preventatives for cancer. Dr. Courts firmly states, "We do not have any evidence to say that it prevents cancer or that it will make your pet's cancer go away." [46:06]

Handling Treatment Decisions and Owner Guilt

Dr. Courts addresses the emotional difficulty pet owners face when deciding against treatment due to financial constraints or other reasons. She emphasizes that choosing palliative care is a valid and compassionate option, encouraging owners not to feel guilty about their decisions. She comforts listeners by saying, "Leaving my office and not doing chemo should not be a reason to feel guilty." [39:24]

Advancements in Veterinary Oncology

Looking ahead, Dr. Courts expresses cautious optimism about the integration of AI in veterinary medicine. She mentions its potential in predicting chemotherapy responses and analyzing tumor genetics, mirroring advancements in human medicine. "Watching different companies implement AI into predicting responses to chemotherapy or analyzing the genomic profile of a tumor." [45:31]

Success Stories

Dr. Courts shares numerous uplifting stories, including one about a dog who completed chemotherapy and was able to witness her owners' wedding, symbolizing the deep bonds between pets and their families. These narratives highlight the profound impact of veterinary oncology on both animals and their human companions.

Things Not to Do (Pawn Order)

In the segment Pawn Order, Dr. Courts outlines three critical actions pet owners should avoid:

1. Requesting Non-Oncology Services: "Do not go to your oncologist and ask them to look in the ears or look at the poop." [53:53]
2. Using Unproven Treatments: She caution against using essential oils and ivermectin for cancer treatment, emphasizing the lack of scientific support.
3. Following Breeder Recommendations for Medical Treatment: Dr. Courts advises against taking medical advice from breeders, stressing the importance of relying on veterinary professionals for cancer treatment decisions. "Do not come to your veterinary oncologist's office and tell me what your breeder recommended." [56:44]

Conclusion and Resources

The episode wraps up with Dr. Courts announcing her upcoming e-guidebook aimed at helping pet owners navigate a cancer diagnosis. She encourages listeners to reach out via social media for more information and support. Dr. Horch reiterates the importance of honest communication and informed decision-making in ensuring the best possible outcomes for pets battling cancer.

Listeners are encouraged to connect with Dr. Courts on Instagram and stay tuned for her guidebook release. Additionally, both hosts invite feedback and questions through their social media platforms, fostering an ongoing dialogue within the pet owner community.

Notable Quotes:

• "Make everyday Disney World." [16:32]
• "Why wait aspirate?" [21:13]
• "If you have access to go to the oncologist, it's worth the money." [25:18]
• "Quality of life is the primary goal." [29:29]

Key Takeaways:

• Early detection and proactive care are crucial in managing cancer in pets.
• Veterinary oncology focuses on maintaining a pet's quality of life.
• Common cancers vary between dogs and cats, with specific signs to watch for.
• Myths about cancer treatments and dietary cures are debunked.
• Pet owners should feel empowered to make informed treatment decisions without guilt.
• Advancements like AI hold promise for future veterinary care.
• Avoid unproven treatments and misplaced medical advice from non-professionals.

For more insights and support, pet owners can follow Dr. Daniela Courts on Instagram and stay updated with future resources designed to aid them through their pet's cancer journey.

Transcript

[Dr. Josie Horch]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

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[Jay Shetty]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

God, I've been through so many things.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

That at this point I would rather.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Not than feel because feeling is too.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Much for me to handle.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I am Khloe Kardashian.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Khloe Kardashian, everybody.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Khloe Kardashian.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No one understands how it's I'm not just a TV show.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

You're listening to in the vet's office with Dr. Josie Horch.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Hi everyone and welcome back to in the Vet's Office. I AM your host, Dr. Josie and today we are going to talk about the big C word. Cancer. No one loves talking about cancer, but the reality is that it's more common than we think and if you own enough pets, you at some point will probably have a pet that is diagnosed with cancer. So lucky for us, I have brought one of the best in the biz to tell us what we need to know as pet parents. She is a board certified veterinary oncologist in Washington D.C. who just so happens to be one of My besties and former vet school classmates, welcome to in the vet's office, Dr. Daniela Courts.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Thanks, Josie.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Are we still going by your maiden name?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Oh, my gosh. I love that you asked that, because everyone's asked me that since I got married, which was like a total of four weeks ago. Yeah, I think hyphenating is the way I want to go because at the end of the day, like, those are my diplomas. I'm very protective over my degrees. So probably like a chorus D. Okay. I like something like that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

A mouthful.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I know, I know. The kids will love it.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It's perfect. No, I think it's super. I like that a lot. I mean, I know. I feel like so many female doctors and veterinarians are like, no, I worked for this. And now all of your clients know you as that. Like, it would be pretty hard to change this far in your career.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So I know you got to keep at least part of that for me. Plus, it's kind of like how you're recognized with a lot of your clients. So not ready to give that up.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I will keep referring to you and probably through most of this podcast as Donda, which is your nickname. So if you guys hear me say Donda, I am talking to Dr. Corid Ste. And we, like I said, we went to Ohio State together in vet school and had so many fun times together. I think we, like, really got each other through a lot of it. One of my favorite memories of us together was we are in. Gosh, this was probably like our second year of vet school. So what was that, like 2014, 2015.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Forever ago.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. Or. I know. And this was back when, like, the gel manicure at home kits were, like, really popular. And you were like, you had the best nails. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I would do anything to have my nails look like yours. And one day we're in radiology lab and we're all like, I mean, this is like 50 people are in this lab and you whip out your gel manicure kit and you start doing my nails, giving me a full blown manicure in the middle of radiology lab. And our professor, Dr. Drost, I think that's who it was, was up there lecturing, and he just looks at us. He, like, goes to say something and he's just like, whatever, like these two. And we just did a full blown manicure.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I cannot believe a. That you bring it up. But also, how did they actually let us, like, we were fully like, nail salon, it smells bad in there. We're like, supposed to be looking at radiology.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

The UV light of the gel. Of the gel machine.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

How do we not get kicked out of the lab for that?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I know. You're, like, a little more square or a little more oval. I'm like, maybe squ.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

What do you think about this broken boat? Yes.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That was amazing. That is, like, us to a te. So all good times. We did end up being successful. Minus R. I know.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And I'm so excited to be here and, like, extraordinarily proud of you also. But it's so fun to be here, to be in Nash and to talk about, like, the fun good times and to share some of my stuff from my work with everybody.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, well, we. In this episode, we always start with a case of the week. And so I was thinking, you have been through an internship, a residency. You're now an oncologist, and I am, quite frankly, I'm running out of cases. So do you have any funny stories from your time in practice that the audience might want to hear?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Man. So this is actually really funny, but I will just preface this by saying it's my first year as a resident. Okay. And so everything's pretty new. And you work with students. I mean, you remember when we were students, you had your residents, and they teach you.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It's just like Grey's Anatomy.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah. Same scrubs.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Remember the seal blue? Yeah. So I get a case, and you typically get a chance to read about your case before you do it. So you've got your records from the referring vet, and I'm reading, and I'm supposed to see a cat with what it literally Says is a 10 centimeter abdominal mass or tumor on the abdomen.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's huge.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

A cat is, like, this long, and 10 centimeters is, like, half the cat. It's like half the cat.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So I'm like, oh, my God, this is going to be disgusting and awful, and I'm gonna have to give these people horrible news about this poor cat. This is not gonna go well. So the way we did it is the student had to do their exam first and then report back to the resident, and then the resident does their exam. So my student comes to me and she says, you know, cat has dental disease, and she's naming all these things that she's finding on this cat. And I'm like, okay, waiting for the. There should be a huge tumor that you're reporting to me. And she doesn't. I'm like, not going well for this student.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And you are getting an F. You.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Are literally Missing half the cat. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, let's go look together. Let's go do a real exam. So I'm examining this cat. You know, you're palpating the abdomen. You're doing all your things. And I'm like, well, now I'm a little confused because I don't feel this tumor.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So the. They had said there was a tumor inside the abdomen, either on or in.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Either way, you should be able to feel this 10 centimeter mass. I mean, we're.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. And that for the listeners out there, when we're doing our physical exam, like, a lot of times you'll see us pressing on your pet's belly and we're feeling for, like, any in. Or organs that are enlarged or any abnormalities. And a lot of. Well, I wouldn't say a lot of times, but it's not uncommon for us to palpate something like, ooh, this is really big and unusual.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yep. So that's what I'm expecting for this poor cat. So I don't find it. And now I'm confused. Is this the right pet? Some people have multi pet households. It's not unheard of to bring the wrong cat to the vet. So I go into the room as a sweet old man and I put the cat on the table. And I'm like, you're here for a.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

A big mess.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

You felt something, right? And he's like, yeah, it's huge. I'm like, oh. And it's this kitty cat. He's like, yeah, it's. It's her. I said, okay. And then he says, you know, sometimes it drags on the floor when she walks. And I'm like, really? I put the cat on the floor. Who's a little overweight. Cats are. And then it clicks. It is this cat's fupa.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Her fupa.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Her sweet little belly.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

You were telling me this cat came to the oncologist for her fupa.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

For her fupa. So now we're fat shaming this poor girl. She's seeing an oncologist for it. No, when I tell you, first of all, I'm relieved. Oh, this sweet old man. I don't have to tell him anything bad. I'm like, oh, so that's just her.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Those are just her lady part.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

You know, she's just a little chubby. He's.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

She's in menopause or sir. She's all right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

She's dragging a little bit of her chunk.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Mind you. So I have to write up a ca. You have to give people take home discharges. You do this? Yeah, I have to document what happened. And so my student gets to start this document. And we use templates for our documents. And she's so sweet. I always say, use the template. Use the template. She comes back, she goes, Dr. Koretz, there's no template for FUPA. I was like, no, no, there's not. No, there would not be.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I'm dying.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Giving people good news in my setting is really rare.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So telling someone there's not a tumor there. Yeah, it's not a tumor is truly like a treat. And for it to just be like normal anatomy, even bigger treat.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

You've never been so excited to talk about a FUPA in your life.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Never in my life. Nor has this happened since, which now I'm like, okay. I mean, I guess it could feel like a tumor. Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It is so funny. Like, I guess if people are don't have a ton of cats, they could be like, why is there this fat sack in my cat's abdomen? But it's really normal for. For fat cats.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Any listeners who don't have a cat, it's pretty impressive how much chub they can carry in that area. Sometimes that's all the area.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And it's just like swaying in the wind.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Swaying in the wind. Try giving one of those cats a bath. And then you can really.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Appreciate a lot of.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

A lot of muffin top.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It's. It's several muffins usually on top of each other.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That is really funny. That's like in gp. I've told the story, but we. A lot of times we'll get men that bring in dogs. Mainly men. Dogs with bumps on their belly. And I'm like, sir, this is a nipple.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So I love that you said that. I actually was going to say things that people mistake for tumors. Nipples.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And also love handles.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Ah, yes. On the back. A lot of times I'm like, oh, look at this bump. And I'm like, that's a lovely.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Like this. I say, see how there's two.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. Perfectly symmetrical on either side. I do. I have the same thing as well.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Exactly.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's so funny. Okay, great. Well, that's amazing. And now we all know FUPAs are not, in fact, cancerous. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come right back and we're going to dive into all things Cancer with Dr. Koretz. Diess aka Donda.

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[Dr. Josie Horch]

We.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family.

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They showcased a sense of love that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I never had before.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I mean, he's not only my parent, like, he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change thing about our lives.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

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[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Brought to you by Adoptus Kids, the U.S. department of Health and Human Services.

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[Dr. Daniela Courts]

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[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay, so Donda, how out of all the specialties did you decide to be a veterinary oncologist?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I think some people might think it's kind of like self deprecating and really sad and depressing. But I think what led me to it and you met him. My sweet sunny man. I had a golden retriever. Everyone who knows me knows that despite what I do for a living I'm a sucker for those dogs. And he had cancer. And it's not actually uncommon for golden retrievers to have more than one cancer. And my dude Sonny ended up with three by the time he passed away. But it was really, I think, a turning point for me to kind of decide into a specialty, and one that really involves bonding with clients on a really deep level through both the really, really good and exciting, but also a lot of grief. And you bond with people in a way that, you know is not true for every specialty. And it's. It's really a deep connection that you develop with the clients. And it really drove me to kind of, you know, go that direction. And it's been true, honestly, every day. Just the relationships that I develop with my clients and of course, the dogs, like, that's an endorphin rush every time a golden retriever comes in, but it's really the relationships with their owners.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I feel like it's so interesting. And maybe people don't know this, but veterinarians, just, like human doctors, can specialize. So we have. I guess I'll start with. I'm a general practitioner. I went to vet school for four years, and then I came out and started working in, like, your average everyday gp. There are others who specialize, like Daniela did, and they go on to do an internship, three years of residency, sometimes even more schooling. And they can be surgeons, they can be cardiologists, they can be ophthalmologists, oncologists. And of those specialties, I feel like oncology. My gosh. I'm sure people think, wow, that must be so tough. And in human medicine, I'm sure, too. But to me, I think that those relationships must be so rewarding.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

They are. And you know how often my clients will go, like, they'll be seriously, like, mid crying. They're like, I don't know how you do this for a living. I'm like, sometimes I cry. I think it's really important to be a human, not hold back if you need to. You know, if you're treating a dog for a year and a half or two years, and it's time. I've cried for sure. But the good absolutely outweighs the sad and the bad. And one thing that I think is really important to point out is that some of these owners, they really. They get like, this new lease on life with their pet when they know that the time, even though we all know they're mortal, when they realize that that time is truly limited, is what I tell my clients. I say, make everyday Disney World.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And they do. They say, you know what, Dr. Courts, we had an amazing six months, which isn't enough. To me, it's never enough. But they literally say, like, you told me to treat him like it's Disney World every day. And we did puppuccinos, gaining 10 pounds. You know, like, the things that the dogs are not allowed to do their whole life.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

They get to do when they're diagnosed with cancer.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Final bucket list.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Oh, my gosh. Special beach trips and, you know, again, McDonald's. I'm telling you, some of these guys come in, I'm like, so we're in a remission. You know, he's gaining, like, £2 every week. Let's, like, pump the brakes a little spoil, but, like, I need them to walk.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Let's, like, modify the bucket list a little bit.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

But that's what people do. So it's a really rewarding chunk of time that they get.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, that's true. I guess, like, that was. No matter how long it is, at least they're getting that time to cherish with their animals and really make the most of it.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So what would you say? I mean, I think there's so many owners out there. I think, gosh, I don't know about people, but even myself, I think about, oh, my gosh, do I have cancer? I think we just, like, really think about it and really psych ourselves out. And I know my clients are always like, I'm worried about my dog having cancer and my cat having cancer. What are some things that people can do to sort of ensure that they're being proactive with their pets or screen their pets for cancer? I know there's, like, a lot of different opinions on that.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah, I. I think the most important thing for a pet owner is to be your pet's biggest and most important advocate. So if you think about even for yourself, you know, if something's wrong, like, you're going to advocate for yourself. Hopefully. Same thing with the pets. You know, at home, screening is actually very doable, whether it's just feeling your pet for a new lump or bump or, you know, I don't know that people realize, but dogs have lymph nodes here just like people do. And so feeling for those things at home is something you can do as a part of your routine every couple weeks. I'm not saying do a rectal exam at home. Like, I don't recommend that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Leave that up to Dr. Josie. But at your service, there are ways that you can and Even something like an oral tumor. Right. If your dog's panting, take a peek in there. Right. So these are things that you can do to be proactive at home so that you don't miss something that really could have made a difference early on. Common misconception, normal blood work.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

You know, we've talked about this before. Normal blood work often translates to people like, almost as a cancer screening.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And that's not always the case. Majority of the time, not the case.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Almost never the case.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I will say, like, as a gp, screening blood work is really important. It helps me understand how are their organs functioning, how are their cell counts? So it can really tell me a lot about their overall health. But 99% of the time, if they do have some sort of cancer, that's not usually picked up on lab work. So just like you said, doing those, looking for lumps and bumps, I think like major behavioral changes or weight loss, that's something where it's like, oh, this is not. Not normal and worth investigating.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah. And I mean, I did not coin this phrase, but age is not a disease. So a lot of the times a pet owner will say, well, I just thought he was just slowing down. Slowing down over many years is normal. We all have aches and pains. Slowing down in a couple weeks or a couple months, that should be something that should ring some sort of alarm.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. Maybe we should get this looked at. Yeah. I also think too, it's so important. I talk about this a lot on my social media and on the podcast. If you do find a lump or a bump, knowing that, you know, I think it can be our tendency. Like, ah, it's probably just a fatty thing. Like, we'll just. Or it's a cyst, it's no big deal. Like, we'll just watch it. Like, I think it is so important to aspirate it. And that's something that we can do as your gp. It's so easy for us to do. We just stick a tiny little needle in. They can be. Most dogs are wide awake. It doesn't really bother them. They don't need to be sedated. It's minimally invasive, not super expensive. And so worth doing because it can really help us get an idea of, like, is this bad? Do we need to look into this further? Or, hmm, now we probably don't need to worry about it.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Exactly. And this is. It's kind of reminds me of when you get your nails done and you're afraid to say you didn't like them. Yeah. If you're not comfortable saying it's just nothing without sampling it. Like, just advocate for your nails, advocate for your pet.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And we're back to manicures.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Say something about it because sampling should be part of, like, the standard care.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Totally. I sound like such a nerd, but I always say, why wait aspirate? Which I know is so nerdy.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It is so nerdy, but I live by that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Why wait aspirate? It's so easy to do.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So easy.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And it can save your pet's life.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So. So there are a couple of different new tests out there that sort of market themselves as cancer screening and pets. I know there's like some urine tests and blood tests. What do you think about those?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I love seeing how much technology is helping veterinary medicine and just watching, you know, the new developments. And it's just the same as in human medicine. You got to take it with a grain of salt and some caution because sometimes we get these results. Right, These screening tests for pets, you know, certain dog breeds or, you know, someone gets a golden retriever and they think they're going to get ahead of it. These tests have value, and I think there's a lot more studying that we need to do and more testing to figure out where their place is. But it can be a little bit misleading or misguiding to have a test that tells you you have some percentage likelihood that your pet is going to get cancer or is carrying some sort of trait or gene, because we don't really understand the utility in a practical sense. What do you do with that test result?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I see. So it's like, okay, we have this golden retriever. Probably a golden retriever is going to come back with a very high likelihood of having some sort of genetic predisposition to getting cancer. So we get the information that we probably already know, and then it's like, what do we do with this? As owners, as gps, what do we do? I don't know, like full body MRI every six months, which again, isn't really realistic sense.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Is not realistic. I mean, in the human world, you're not. You're not going to get an MRI every six months if for. If nothing else than the radiation exposure. But.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It's. It's something that is, I believe in the future going to have a place and a lot of really smart people are working on these tests. But in a practical sense, I can honestly tell you I do not recommend them as of right now, and I don't use them.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's fair.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I don't know that it would change anything that we do. How interesting. And not to mention MRIs are really expensive and your pet has to go under full anesthesia for them. Honestly, those tests that gives me anxiety, I'm kind of. I would just be like staring at my pets all day.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah, I. You would. And I think that that's probably where I would draw the line. If your relationship with your pet starts to change because of a test that you maybe never needed to do, you know, again, being practical. And you actually just said it. How is this going to change what I do?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

That should be the reason that we do tests willy nilly. Just doing tests to have a test result can actually sometimes I think cause more harm than good.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. Send you down a rabbit hole that maybe you didn't need to go down.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I mean, prone to that hypochondriac.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right here. So, okay, what are some of the most common cancers you see in dogs?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So I would say by far and wide, you know, kind of our bread and butter is going to be canine lymphoma.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Which is a disease that affects the lymph nodes, these lymph centers, or what we call multicentric lymphoma. The telltale sign is usually actually not a pet being sick. It's these big lumps or tumors that people perceive.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

They're like golf balls, they can be huge.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So that's really, really common, highly treatable, and can be very rewarding. When I talk about my long term relationships with my patients, it's often lymphoma patients. They're amazing. They come in for chemo and they're. I see them every week sometimes for a long time. So very rewarding disease most of the time to treat. The second one that's probably huge is going to be your mast cell tumor. Skin tumors that can be really pesky. And honestly, general practitioners do a beautiful job referring and also treating them themselves, depending on, you know, the complex kind of nature of the, the situation or the case.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

But yeah, that's really interesting that you bring that up because I, I see a lot of skin tumors. Like if someone has asked me what's the most common cancer you see, mine would be mast cell tumors probably far and away. And anyone listening that's had multiple dogs, probably has had a dog or has heard of mast cell tumor. It's the most common skin cancer in a dog. And it's interesting in that in human medicine it's a little bit different. But in veterinary medicine we can as GPS treat anything until we feel comfortable with it and Then once we hit that point, we're like, I'm not so comfortable. Let me send it to the specialist. And so it's very common for gps to say, okay, your dog has a skin tumor. I'm going to do surgery on it. I'm going to take what we call wide margins, get healthy tissue around it so we know we've gotten that whole tumor off. And then from there, if, you know, for whatever reason it comes back or it metastasized, we usually send it off to the oncologist. One thing that I think is interesting is some gps are doing chemo, and again, that kind of comes back to, like, their comfort level. And I think that that's a little controversial, I think, for me. I'd be interested to know what you think. You're laughing. I think that if your pet has cancer and it needs further treatment, like chemotherapy, I would. If you have access to go to the oncologist, you're. It's worth the couple hundred dollars you might save. You won't save going to the oncologist, but it's definitely worth the money that you would save if you went to your gp.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yes, Josie, I do laugh because I. I really. Look, chemotherapy. Let's just review real quick what that is. It's designed to be a poison. It's a poison that kills DNA in its simplest form. Right. It kills those cells. So you don't really want to be messing with it.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

We have special chambers where we pull up this chemo that we administer. Each chemo has its own special set of side effects. You know, it's. It's really something that I don't think is made to be in the GP practice simply, if not for anything else other than just the things you need for it logistically.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And, you know, I'll say I'm the first one to be like, I don't know how to do GP things. And, you know, I think if you feel comfortable giving chemo, maybe you shouldn't be. Unless. I don't know what the circumstances are.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, I don't know. I. I don't think it's. I think it's becoming less and less common. I guess I just, like, want the listeners to know if you have the option of going to your GP for chemo or an oncologist all day long, go to your oncologist.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And I want to. We'll dive into chemo because I think that's. I get tons of questions about that in our pets. So what are some of the common cancers that you see in cats.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Cats. And I have a cat love of my life. Very fluffy, beautiful man. The most common thing you're going to see in cats is going to be gastrointestinal disease with lymphoma. So it's like same cancer category, but in dogs, it's here in the lymph nodes. And in cats, it's more commonly in the GI tract. So the big stuff to watch for your cats is weight loss. It's not normal for a cat to lose weight. And vomiting, diarrhea, all that gross stuff, that's the most common thing we see cats for cats are tricky. The cat listeners out there, they're like, good, good, good, good, good. Until they're like, crashing all of a sudden.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes, we. We've talked about this quite a bit. We actually had Dr. Bean on, who we went to school with, and we talked about. Cats are so tough in that they don't really. A dog subs its toe and it's like, oh, my God, help me. Take me to the hospital. Call the ambulance. And a cat is like one minute away from death, and he's like, I'm fine. I'm good. Like, cats are tough, so it can be hard to tell when something's really wrong.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Exactly. And then sometimes it's. You know, they tend to have the very aggressive form of lymphoma. Like, I mean, there's two main kinds, but the really aggressive kind that affects cats, it goes fast. So again, I. It goes back to what I was saying earlier. Like, trust your gut. This isn't normal for your pet. Get it investigated, even if they're being, you know, really stoic.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. It all comes back to advocating for your animals, just like you said.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay, so your pet gets diagnosed with cancer, and the listener or owner goes to you as the oncologist. And I'm assuming you present them with treatment options. Radiation, chemo. And number one thing that I hear, and I'm sure that you hear, is, well, what is my pet's quality of life going to be? What are the side effects? What do you say to them?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

This is one of my favorite things to educate owners on, because I'll. I actually tell them, I say, you know, my job would really suck if I was making these beautiful, innocent creatures sick all the time. And I'm really lucky to say I'm not doing that. So in humans, you know, chemotherapy is designed ideally to cure you. Right. You know, because if you're treating somebody, you want them to have their full life, you want them to make it to Their kids, graduation or whatever. In dogs, the goal is different. Most of the cancers that I treat are not going to be curable. So we're really focused on quality of life. Quantity is great. That's a secondary goal. But my primary goal is quality, quality, quality. And so the dosages that we use are a little bit different. I'm very quick to reduce the dose of chemotherapy if it's making my patient sick. And you really tailor it to the owner and to the pet, what everyone can tolerate, but most of the time they're not getting sick. If they are, it's usually mild. Hair loss is only seen in a couple breeds.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Which breeds are that? Are those doodles?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Ah, doodles will lose their hair.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Like, they go completely bald sometimes. My gosh. I've never had a patient go bald from chemo. A bald doodle.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I just have to tell you the cutest story, which is there's this beautiful dog. Her name's Callie, and she's a doodle. She got chemo, and she has a little two year old boy at home that she lives with. And her mom said that when Cali lost all her hair during chemo, he would wake up every morning and say, you look beautiful today, Cali.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's the cutest thing I ever heard.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I was like. And so every time she'd come to see me and she was naked, they grow it back a little bit. But I'm like, kelly, you look beautiful today. And they are naked. They look naked. Like they come in sweaters and things like that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

When their hair grows back, does it grow back different colors or different texture like humans?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yes.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

They come back. The experience I've had is that the poodly part goes away.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And they start to be more like, golden.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Like wavy.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah. And then goldens will lose their feathers. So for those who know what a golden retriever looks like, they're beautiful and feathered. The feathers go away often. So it's like this unique thing that happens to that breed.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

But I do find that most of them, like, eat fine, drink fine. They're bouncing around. Sometimes they even feel better on it. Like, they tend to do very, very well.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

They do. And I have owners who are like, I didn't realize how sick he was until we did the chemo. He's like a puppy again. And then I'm like, yeah, chemo for everyone.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And you get chemo and you get chemo. Another thing that's really interesting is a lot of the owners are surprised to find out that the chemotherapy is almost it Is a lot of times the same drugs that we use in humans?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yep, absolutely. So the majority of it, there's definitely some veterinary specific chemo drugs, But I use chemo that people get for either the same disease or even a different disease. And there's just a lot of overlap because the studies overlap, too. You know, the cancers don't always behave exactly the same way, but they're very similar. And, you know, I have clients who tell me, oh, my gosh, I got that drug when I was battling cancer. And people share with me very often, and I feel very humbled that people feel comfortable enough to share with me about their own cancer journeys. And they often tell me, you know, I don't want that drug for my dog. I was so sick when I got that. Or, oh, you know, I remember this. So, I mean, literally, like, the CHOP protocol for lymphoma, you know, has been used in people. They're like, oh, my gosh, I know someone who had that. Or my neighbor.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

But dogs and cats handle. Cats are aliens. They handle chemo phenomenally.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Cats are like, this is great.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

What neutrophil. They're like, what white blood cells? And who needs them? Yeah, they don't care for losers.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's really something that you said, though, that I think is really important. That always is interesting to me and to owners, is that there is a lot of translational medicine here. So we have a lot of the cancers that are in dogs. For example, osteosarcoma, which my great Dane died from, is bone cancer. A lot of children suffer from that as well. And so a lot of, like, the studies and drugs that we use in our pets is a lot of times experimental in the sense of, like, we're trying to figure out, is it going to work for humans.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Exactly.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So interesting.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It's amazing how many really, really smart, much smarter than me people are working on trying to cure someday these children of these really, really aggressive, very painful tumors. And there is a lot of translation, not just for the mutations, but for the different drugs that can be utilized to try to block some of these cancer pathways. And particularly the cancers that we know affect a really vulnerable population of people, which are young kids and, you know, adolescents who end up use losing a limb over this. You know, so while we've made a lot of steps forward, we have so much more work to do. And if you look at literature and you look at studies that look at, you know, human cancers, they have, like, thousands of subjects. Yeah, dogs and cats, you know, you're like, oh, my Gosh, this. They had 40 dogs. Like, this is really reliable. Yeah. Yeah, I could really do this one. So it's. It's still a long way from where we would like it to be, and it's still a very devastating disease, as you know.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

But, yeah, it's. I think we take it for granted how much we can help people when we are treating and studying canine and feline cancer.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And that's something that I feel like at Ohio State especially, we, like, really. They really preach for something called one health, where it's like, public health, human health, animal health, it's so all deeply intertwined. Like, even with the bird flu that's breaking out right now starts with birds, can affect our cattle, our cats at home are getting sick, humans are getting sick. Like, all of these things are so intertwined. And so as health professionals, it's like, you know, I know people say we're animal doctors, but a lot of it is so, so deeply intertwined.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

100. I mean, I don't know about you guys during COVID but, like, you got emails. Oh, can you come help vaccinate?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

You know, I mean, you should probably cut this out, but peloton did not recognize us.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I know. You know what? I'm not cutting this out. Peloton was like, oh, veterinarians, they're not health professionals. We're not giving them a discount.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah, I'm not gonna forget that. I wish I could. I know.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Well, I'm not getting sponsored by them.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Sorry.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay, so we talked about chemotherapy. What about. What would you say, like, are some of the side effects you see from radiation? And how do pets do tolerate radiation?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah. So side effects with radiation are. It kind of depends on what protocol you do. So you could do a lot of radiation where, like, these guys are coming in every day for a month. So that's pretty intensive. And those side effects are always going to be more intense. Hair loss. This one, definitely.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And then sometimes the skin can get kind of like, sunburnt or burnt truly. But can be very effective. Depends on the tumor.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And we definitely do multimodal therapy, where you actually can do a combo. First you do surgery, chemo, radiation, which sometimes when I talk to my dad about this, who's a human oncologist, I think it really blows his mind. He's like, wait, you do this to animals? He's like, people do this? I'm like, oh, yeah, dad, they do. And he's like, for a dog. I'm like, these are family.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, like, family member.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

There are people who are like, when do I start?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And I'm like, I mean, we have to tell you about the price of all of this. They're like, we don't care. This is my child.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Speaking of price, let's say you have a golden retriever, it's diagnosed with lymphoma, and you're going to go through the CHOP chemo protocol. What would you. What's like a rough quote for that? Just so listeners have an idea?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah, it's. So it's important to point out CHOP is 16 weeks, so 16 treatments. And if you finish it and you pay as you go, but if you finish it, I think you can range anywhere from 7k all the way up to over maybe 10 or even 12k for the whole thing.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Depends on which part of the country you're in or where you're practicing.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And that protocol specifically can give you years.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It can. So with the kind of big lumps multicentric lymphoma that I was describing, it really depends. I've got dogs that have made it for two years, and we get really excited about that. That's probably only around 20% of the population with lymphoma. So the multicentric lymphoma dogs may not make it to a year. Um, and to say years is definitely possible, but not as common as we would like and better.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

You know, it's important that we don't sugarcoat it and we have those prognoses, and maybe your pet is one of the 20%, but also, in reality, the likelihood is that it probably isn't.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I think sugarcoating in my world is probably one of the least desirable things you can do.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And I tell my. My clients, I say, if you want honesty, you're in the right place with me in this office, because I'm not going to lie to you. It's not fair. You. I think most people really appreciate that and are coming to you for honest expectations.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. How do you handle. I know I and GP a lot. They either go to see you or they don't. How do you handle, hey, here are your treatment options. And for whatever reason, people are like, I don't want to go through with chemotherapy. It is very expensive. So how do you handle, like, saying, okay, we're not going to do treatment, we're going to do palliative care. And how do you handle that, like, level of guilt? I feel like a lot of owners.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Feel you're so right. And I think part of our jobs as veterinarians is to make sure that we present options free of judgment.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Because our only job as pet owners is to prevent suffering. And so the way I talk to my clients is chemo is not for everybody. There are multiple factors that go into deciding to do chemotherapy for your beloved family member and pet, and finances should be a part of the conversation. They have to be. It is extremely expensive, especially if you don't have insurance for your pet.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And ultimately, I tell them, I said, I'm not here to sell you chemo, and you love your pet. You wouldn't go to a veterinary oncologist if you didn't love your pet.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah. So leaving my office and not doing chemo should not be a reason to feel guilty, because it's really not the right choice for everyone. Palliative care with steroids can still get a lot of patients good time and good quality, again, with the correct expectations. And, you know, just not allowing your pet to suffer is doing your job.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes. I think that is such a great way to put it. I. I think that is. You nailed it on the head. I think what I try and tell owners is it's worth going to the oncologist and getting all of your information, and then from there, you can make the decision that's best for you and your family and your pet. And I just, like, love that you said, we don't want you to leave feeling guilty. I think maybe there's. Maybe there's always a little piece of that because we're humans. But I. You know, for example, at my LUCA that had osteosarcoma, we didn't do anything except palliative care. We got six really amazing months. But, you know, I didn't think treatment would have been best for her. And so I guess I just, like, want to. If you don't have $10,000 to spend on the chop protocol, and that doesn't, you know, fit your family's needs or your pet's needs, like, it's okay 100%.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And actually, that is so important because that's. People forget. That is such a big part of my job, is actually just giving people the comfort of knowing that that's okay to do, or even to say there aren't any good options. And then I tell them, I'm really sorry. I don't know if this is helpful. And you know how often they tell me that's actually incredibly helpful.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

To know that there wasn't anything else I could do.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Like getting a little bit of that peace.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Peace of mind. One thing that you also just Said that I think is really important and I usually hammer this home on this podcast. But if you can get pet insurance for your animal, the second you adopt them, the second they're puppies or kittens, man, it could change your life. Change their life.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Louder for the people in the back.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Pet insurance.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Pet insurance. Taking that part of the decision making out of the conversation is incredibly helpful. And people. I mean, it is covered. This is not a pre existing condition. If you get your pet insured and a year later it gets cancer, this is not pre existing. Correct.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And can make a huge difference financially. I don't know if you guys can hear this. We don't need to pause it. My dogs are going off the rails right now. Biggie's like grunting on the ground. Saya, can you go lay on your bed, sister? You can do it. Go get down. Okay, where were we?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I'm torn between encouraging her and discouraging.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Auntie Donda, can you stop? You need to get down. Saya.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

She's giving me the Sarah McLaughlin song Eyes.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

How do you.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

We've.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I've done a whole. She is. Saya, go lay on your bed.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

The arms of an angel over here.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I know. Okay, now she's coming to me. When you have clients that are nearing and I've done a whole episode on euthanasia, so we don't have to go too far into it. But when they're nearing that time, how do you. What are some of the things that you point out? You're like, this is what I monitor for quality of life. This is what helps me know when it's time. What do you say to them?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It's the hardest part of having a pet. And what I tell people, first of all, I. I tell them, I say, I. It's easier for me to talk to you about this, but when I'm sitting in that chair someday with my own dog and I have sat in that chair, it's just an impossible thing to wrap your mind around. So what I talk to them about is, you know, as easy and as simple as, you know, your dog doesn't have a watch or a calendar. He's not worried about not making it to Christmas. He lives for every moment that he has. And how lucky is that? I try to say, if you can just focus on the fact that they don't know what cancer is. They don't know what passing away is. They just live for you and for the pets and for the food or whatever. Each dog has three or four things that make that dog them and when they don't do those things anymore, it's just their way of saying, I'm not having a good time anymore. I don't want to be here like this. And so I do remind people it's not always that they stopped eating or, you know, they are not crying in pain, so they're probably not in pain. You may not never do that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Right.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So every dog's different, but really focusing on. Better a week early than a day late.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I don't know if that's helpful, but that's. I think it is what I try to tell my clients about.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And often. Oftentimes they want to see it through to the end with me, which I am a marshmallow. Like, I do go into a private room and cry afterwards.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Me too.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It's really one of those things that it's an honor for people to say that to me, but I'm always like, ooh, I know this is gonna hurt.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It is an honor. And I really do look at it as a privilege. But, gosh, I'm crying in a closet by myself afterwards.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

My nurses are like, are you okay? I'm like, I just need a minute.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I'll be fine. What are some advancements in veterinary. I know we've talked about it a little bit in veterinary oncology. You're like, yes, this is going to be great. Are there any. Anything good on the horizon coming up? As far as science goes, we're really.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I think, cautiously excited about AI making its way into veterinary medicine. And even since I came out of residency, which is a little while ago, but not that long ago, we've started to use different companies that are implementing AI into predicting, you know, whether it's responses to chemotherapy or actually analyzing, you know, the genomic profile of a tumor, which in people is really, really common.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

What would you say is a myth about cancer in our pets?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

The biggest myth, I think, is about suffering from side effects from chemo. But then the second, probably one of the most, I think, commonly asked things in the room is diet.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I hear this a lot.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So what can I feed my dog to either make the cancer go away or. Or what can I feed my dog to prevent cancer? And the short answer is, I think we would all know about this diet if it existed. Right. For sure. I am a believer, and I know you had Val Parker on. I am a believer in balanced nutrition for your pet, and that's going to have huge benefits. But we do not have any evidence to say that it prevents cancer from developing or that it Will make your pet's cancer go away.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, I understand being in the position of like, okay, my pet is sick. I will do anything to make them better. And like, kind of looking for all the solutions. But at that point, we're kind of grasping for straws because there is no scientific studies. And yes, maybe your aunt sister's second cousin had a six, had a great outcome, and they were feeding raw food. But that doesn't mean all dogs with cancer should eat raw food. In fact, no pets should eat raw food. But that's for a different day. I just. Yeah, I struggle with that a little bit.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I'm gonna have to second that. And I think sometimes it's, no pun intended, a hard thing to swallow to realize that there isn't really that much you can do at home. From a diet standpoint, I'm so sorry, but supplement standpoint, you know, I love Reiki, but not seen it. You know, really it's. And I practice evidence based medicine, so you think, you know, you're getting a veterinary oncologist point of view. I think it's nice to exist in parallel with alternative medicine, but when it comes to diet, I haven't seen anything that's been like, really shown to make a difference.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

What about with mushrooms? People love the mushroom.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Turkey tail mushroom. Yeah, they do love it.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And all the scientific data behind those.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Actually, there's a little bit of data that says it doesn't work, but I do try to make sure and recognize that this is a sensitive subject and that it is also typically not hurting.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And I want to make sure that my clients have the space to know that they tried something. What I usually say is, look, I don't know what it does or doesn't do because that's not my line of work. And I haven't seen the hard evidence that I typically do use to make my decisions clinically.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, I think that's fair. It's like if you want to give a mushroom supplement, it's probably not going to hurt anything. It might not work, but maybe it'll make us feel. Because I know as humans, like, we want to feel like we're doing something, anything. We love these animals so much. So if that make. Check that box for some people, I.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Think it checks that box for a lot of people.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I bet. I will say, though, feeding raw food, that can be dangerous for your pets. I've had a patient die from eating raw food. So that one I'm like, and if they're on chemo and they're immune suppressed, Anyways, it can be really bad.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Let us. Exactly. Thanks, Josie, for saying that. Let us not forget that if they're getting chemo, they are going to potentially be susceptible to getting sick anyway, even if it's a little bit more susceptible. I do not recommend raw food in that scenario or any scenario. It's not my jam either.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. Lot of. A lot of side effects from that. Any. Amazing. I'm sure you have a lot. But any success stories that stand out for you in your career?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Thank you for saying that. I have a lot. Yeah. Such a great oncologist.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No. I have so many stories and, you know, people and pets that are so, like, ingrained in my memory and near and dear to my heart. But one that really sticks out as one of the cutest things I've ever seen is actually a dog that finished her chemo and was able to witness her parents getting married.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Like, put the paw on the.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

The paw. No, as a witness.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Like, what is. What is it? It's not a bible. It's like a marriage certificate.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I mean, I think that a witness signs. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that was her signature with her paw.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's the cutest thing I've ever seen. Ever seen in my life.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I, like, I have a little goosebumps because I think it's so adorable. And again, I'm a marshmallow, so I think a lot of things are adorable. But that is one of those things that I always remember. But I have countless stories, countless clients. It's. I'm like getting all gushy and annoying. It's just.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

We said we weren't gonna cry on this episode.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Not gushy to cry, but I really, like. There's so many good stories.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. I feel like that's such a. You make lemonade out of lemons.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

With this. With your career.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Or you have to.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, you have to. Or you will be crying. Okay, we are going to take a quick break. We're going to dive into pawn order when we come right back.

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[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I.

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[Dan Flores]

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[Dan Flores]

So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

All right, we are back and on this week's Pawn order we are gonna have Dr. Daniela take it away with three things that she would not do or doesn't recommend as a veterinary oncologist. Donda, take it away.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

One of the biggest things that I would like everyone to know is that you should not go to your oncologist and ask them to look in the ears or look at the poop. You cannot imagine how many people are like check that tumor.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

But can you also, while I'm here.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Can you look at the ears? I actually literally say I don't have an otoscope. I don't. I don't know how to do that. I love my GP friends and colleagues. They're so good at that. Stick with your GP for poop or ears and all the things. They're super good at the poop. Do not bring me a bag of poop.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Our poor owners Are so conditioned to bringing a poop sample because we're like, bring a fecal. Bring a fecal. It's like great ingrained into them. So anytime they're going to the vet, whether it's an oncologist, I think they just are like, oh, I'll bring a poop sample.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

And they're so like, you know, in this little neat bag, they're like, I'm on my way out of the room, like, do you want this? I'm like, no, thank you.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That, in fact, does not help with the cancer treatment.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No, we don't detect any cancers in the poop. So it's totally okay to keep that for your gps.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And I would like to say, please keep bringing me your poop because I usually do need a poop sample.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So. Another one is essential oils and ivermectin.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

This is a hot topic on social media right now. Ivermectin especially.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

It is a hot topic. Once again, I gotta rewind to what I said. You know, I practice evidence based medicine. Try not to bring that up.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Unless there's some revolutionary thing that happens, you know, And I'm open to new studies.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

As of right now, I'm gonna go with a no. And the essential oils, they smell nice. But we actually used to have a pet that would come in and he would. Was covered in whatever flavor it was, but he was like, covered in it. I'm like, this is overwhelming everybody.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

A little grease ball. Yes.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So greasy.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's cute. The owner was like, I'm going to rub you in oils. And so you're saying ivermectin, people aren't giving it to their pets to treat cancer.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

They're trying to.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Yeah.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It's so interesting. We are like, you know, ever since COVID and now people have really kind of latched onto ivermectin. We've been using it in veterinary medicine forever and mainly as like a deworming anti parasitic situation, which we know there is evidence that it absolutely works for that. And now it's really being. You know, people are using it or saying that it works for cancer treatment, but there really isn't any data behind that.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No. And I mean, I guess you don't always have to have data to, you know, make things happen and sell things. If it sounds good and sounds very accessible. Right. But it's not the recommendation right now. And quite frankly, it's. You're never gonna, as a client, make me mad with that. But I. I don't usually engage in that.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. That's fair. Okay. Last but not least, do not come.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

To your veterinary oncologist's office and tell me what your breeder recommended.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Ooh, this is a hot take.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I beg you.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay. This is interesting. And I. I feel similarly to this ngp. It's okay. I'll let you go first. Then I'll go.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I'll say, as I do own two purebred animals. So I. This is something that is important to recognize. Breeders are. You know, they have their place, and, you know, they do a lot of good things. But I. You cannot imagine how many people come to me and say, well, first of all, my breeder says that she's never had this in her line, and she wanted me to tell you, or he or she wanted me to tell you to do this and this. It's really important, I think, not to do that. I think it takes away a little bit from our expertise. Just like I would not tell a breeder how to breed. Yeah, I wouldn't know where to start.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really interesting. I didn't realize that they are getting involved in cancer treatment. They definitely. In general practice every. Not every time, but a lot of times they'll come with puppies or kittens, and they'll have a sheet that in the breeder says, don't give this vaccine. Don't give that vaccine. And I'm like, wait a second. I'm the doctor, and I know that this vaccine works and like, to not give it would be honestly negligent. But then, you know, owners are really attached to their breeder, and they've chosen their breeder and they've done a lot of research. And I'm not saying they don't do a good job breeding, because I think a lot of them do. But I'm like, it's not great when they're giving us medical advice and, like, how to do our job.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Exactly. Especially when it comes to cancer treatment. You know, I think steering someone away from the treatment, that actually could help their pet.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I think those are probably the most unfortunate cases.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, exactly. It's like just knowing. Knowing where your expertise lies.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Just like me and ears, guys.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Just like you and ears. No ears. No poop.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

And you won't deal.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Honestly, my brain, no eyes. Unless there's a tumor in there, I have no idea. Please don't make me do it.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

There are. Interesting enough, I have diagnosed, like, quite a few ocular eye tumors in my career. I feel like people don't realize. But you. We see those oh, yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Any body part can get cancer. This is fact.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

So, yes, I will look in there if you can tell me that I'm looking for a tumor. But if you want me to look at an ulcer, I will be grossed out. Do not make me stain that eye. Don't make me do it.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's so funny. Well, thank you for coming in today. I feel like you are so passionate about this and it is, I'm sure, a really challenging career, but one that is so necessary because it is so common and we need more people like you that kind of help us as pet owners get through these difficult situations with our animals. And I'm sure people are listening today. Probably like if they've ever had a human oncologist, they're like, gosh, I wish they were like you because you do such a great job of it. So.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Oh.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So thank you for coming. If people want to find you, where do they go about finding you?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Well, I'm currently practicing in northern Virginia.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Okay. D.C. area.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

D.C. area. And I'm actually super happy in that area. I've got a family there and mine two crazy pets. But you can find me on Instagram and I'm actually working on a new account, so.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

That's right, you are. Can we talk about what you're working on?

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

This is like very, very, very new. So what I would say is I'm with the help of my sister and a really, really near and dear friend Kate, we are going to try to do a E guidebook to help people who have pets that have been diagnosed with cancer.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah, it's like you, your pet has cancer now.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

What?

[Dr. Josie Horch]

So I feel like that will be a really great resource that owners don't have currently and will. Will really enjoy having. So I guess everyone stay tuned for that as it comes out. I'll give you more information and as always, please be sure to rate, review, subscribe, Give us five stars, Let us know what you think. You can always send me any questions, any follow up questions you have for Daniella, Dr. Daniela at Dr. Josevette on Instagram and Tick Tock. I just had a TikTok video go to 3.5 million views this week.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

I know what I watch, actually, I watch all your stuff.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

It's a cat with an emotional support bikini top. Yeah.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Or the bra.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Yeah. His name's Cheddar and he brings his emotional support bikini everywhere with him. So, yeah, I've made it pretty big. But also respond to you on social media. And we will be back next week. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you soon.

[Colgate Advertiser]

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[Jay Shetty]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

God, I've been through so many things.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

That at this point point I would.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Rather not feel than feel because feeling.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Is too much for me to handle.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

I am Khloe Kardashian.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Khloe Kardashian, everybody.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

Khloe Kardash.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

No one understands how it's I'm not just a TV show.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Daniela Courts]

Here's the deal. We gotta set ourselves up. See, retirement is the long game. We gotta make moves and make them early. Set up goals. Don't worry about a setback, just save up and stack up to reach them. Let's put ourselves in the right position pregame to greater things. Start building your retirement [e-mail] brought to you by AARP and the Ad Council.

[Dr. Josie Horch]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.