Lots to Say: The Quarterback, Author Jeff Pearlman, and 'Start, Bench, Cut'

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Lots to Say: The Quarterback, Author Jeff Pearlman, and 'Start, Bench, Cut'" – The Bobby Bones Show

Release Date: July 16, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Bobby Bones Show, host Bobby Bones teams up with Matt Castle and special guest Jeff Pearlman to delve into the intricacies of quarterback performance, explore insights from Pearlman's extensive sports writing, and participate in the entertaining segment "Start, Bench, Cut." This comprehensive discussion offers listeners a blend of thoughtful analysis, personal anecdotes, and lighthearted fun, making it a must-listen for football enthusiasts and sports aficionados alike.

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1. Opening Banter and Football Memories

The episode kicks off with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle reminiscing about their playing days, touching on the tradition of jersey swapping and memorable encounters with legendary players.

Notable Quote:

Matt Castle [01:20]: "My first start in New England in the NFL was against the Jets and Brett Favre was the quarterback. He was the first guy to come up right after the game even though they lost, shake my hand and say, hey, I'm really excited for you. That was such a big moment for me."

This heartfelt memory underscores the respect and admiration players have for their peers, setting a nostalgic tone for the episode.

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2. In-Depth Interview with Jeff Pearlman

At approximately [19:36], Bobby introduces Jeff Pearlman, a renowned sports author known for his compelling narratives on iconic athletes like Barry Bonds and Bo Jackson. The discussion covers a range of topics, from Bonds' controversial legacy to the unparalleled athleticism of Bo Jackson.

2.1. Barry Bonds vs. Michael Jordan: A Hot Take

Pearlman sparks a debate by suggesting that Barry Bonds may have been a more formidable athlete than Michael Jordan when considering Bonds' baseball prowess.

Notable Quote:

Mina Kimes [22:37]: "At his best, Bonds was as great a performer as you'll see."

The conversation acknowledges Bonds' extraordinary performance metrics while grappling with the shadow of performance-enhancing drugs that taint his legacy.

2.2. Bo Jackson: The Ultimate Dual-Sport Athlete

Pearlman lauds Bo Jackson as the epitome of athletic excellence, highlighting his unique ability to excel in both baseball and football.

Notable Quote:

Mina Kimes [23:30]: "There's no one like that. He's the perfect embodiment of who he was, that he's the only human being on the planet who could run up the wall, run across the wall."

Jackson's legendary status is cemented through vivid anecdotes, emphasizing his unmatched combination of power, speed, and versatility.

2.3. Brett Favre's Near-Fatal Car Accident

The conversation shifts to a lesser-known chapter of Brett Favre's life, focusing on a severe car accident that nearly ended his career.

Notable Quote:

Mina Kimes [35:08]: "He just always found a way. So he was supposed to be dead and instead he winds up just playing."

This segment sheds light on Favre's resilience and indefatigable spirit, attributes that contributed to his enduring presence on the field.

2.4. The Dallas Cowboys' "Boys Will Be Boys" Era

Pearlman discusses the 1990s Dallas Cowboys, exploring how Jimmy Johnson managed the team's chaotic lifestyle while maintaining on-field success.

Notable Quote:

Mina Kimes [27:55]: "He was the number one thing, I want to send a message right to my team that, I will do this to you."

Johnson's strict yet effective leadership style is examined, revealing the delicate balance between personal freedom and team discipline that fueled the Cowboys' dominance.

2.5. Jeff Pearlman's Upcoming Tupac Book

The dialogue culminates with insights into Pearlman's forthcoming biography on Tupac Shakur, addressing pervasive myths and conspiracy theories surrounding the iconic rapper.

Notable Quote:

Mina Kimes [45:43]: "He's not alive, he's dead."

Pearlman emphasizes the importance of factual accuracy and the depth of research involved in portraying Tupac's complex persona, debunking unfounded theories with authoritative evidence.

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3. "Start, Bench, Cut" – An Entertaining Game Segment

Transitioning from serious discussion, Bobby Bones and Matt Castle engage in the playful segment "Start, Bench, Cut," a football-themed adaptation of the classic game "Marry, Kill." This segment involves selecting among top college quarterbacks based on their performance and potential.

3.1. Oklahoma Quarterbacks: Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, Caleb Williams

Notable Quote:

Bobby Bones [58:25]: "I'm going Tebow at one."

Bobby opts to start Baker Mayfield, citing his standout personality and Heisman Trophy win, while benching Kyler Murray and cutting Caleb Williams despite their impressive accolades.

3.2. Florida Quarterbacks: Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy, Rex Grossman

Notable Quote:

Bobby Bones [60:37]: "I'm going Tebow at one."

Tim Tebow is chosen to start due to his charismatic leadership and widespread impact, while Rex Grossman receives a mixed reception based on his NFL performance versus college promise.

3.3. Oregon Quarterbacks: Marcus Mariota, Justin Herbert, Joey Harrington

The trio debates among Oregon's elite, ultimately selecting Marcus Mariota to start, reflecting his decorated college career and leadership qualities.

3.4. Texas Quarterbacks: Vince Young, Colt McCoy, Chris Sims

Notable Quote:

Bobby Bones [64:35]: "Vince Young is unstoppable..."

Vince Young is the preferred starter, celebrated for his dynamic play and pivotal role in Texas' national championship victories.

3.5. USC Quarterbacks: Carson Palmer, Matt Leinart, Matt Castle

In a nod to personal connections, Carson Palmer is chosen to start, with Matt Leinart brought into contention based on his Heisman win and championship contributions.

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4. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Events

As the episode winds down, the hosts share excitement for the upcoming football season and media days, highlighting their anticipation for in-depth interactions with teams and players.

Notable Quote:

Matt Castle [67:35]: "It's a blast. So it's, it's three days. It's like truly the kickoff to get going for college football."

The episode concludes with expressions of gratitude towards Jeff Pearlman and encouragement for listeners to engage with his work, particularly his upcoming book on Tupac Shakur.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Matt Castle [01:20]: "My first start in New England in the NFL was against the Jets and Brett Favre was the quarterback... shake my hand and say, hey, I'm really excited for you."

• Mina Kimes [22:37]: "At his best, Bonds was as great a performer as you'll see."

• Mina Kimes [23:30]: "There's no one like that. He's the perfect embodiment of who he was..."

• Mina Kimes [35:08]: "He just always found a way. So he was supposed to be dead and instead he winds up just playing."

• Mina Kimes [27:55]: "He was the number one thing, I want to send a message right to my team that, I will do this to you."

• Mina Kimes [45:43]: "He's not alive, he's dead."

• Bobby Bones [58:25]: "I'm going Tebow at one."

• Bobby Bones [60:37]: "I'm going Tebow at one."

• Bobby Bones [64:35]: "Vince Young is unstoppable..."

• Matt Castle [67:35]: "It's a blast. So it's, it's three days. It's like truly the kickoff to get going for college football."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bobby Bones Show masterfully weaves together personal anecdotes, expert insights from Jeff Pearlman, and interactive segments that engage listeners in the world of football. From dissecting the legacies of iconic quarterbacks to exploring the depths of a Tupac biography, the show offers a rich tapestry of content that caters to a diverse audience. Whether you're a die-hard football fan or simply enjoy compelling sports narratives, "Lots to Say: The Quarterback, Author Jeff Pearlman, and 'Start, Bench, Cut'" delivers a memorable and informative listening experience.

Transcript

[Bobby Bones]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Greg Rosenthal]

Who are the 25 greatest football players to grace the gridiron since the year 2000? Introducing NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. Join me, Greg Rosenthal, and an all star cast of media personalities including Mina Kimes, Steve Wych, Kevin Harlan and more for a look at football's best since the turn of the century. Listen to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years, starting on June 30 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bobby Bones]

Lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart podcast.

[Greg Rosenthal]

We got lots to say? We got lots to say?

[Matt Castle]

We're glad you're here and we hope you stay?

[Greg Rosenthal]

Cause we got lots. Yeah, we got lots to say.

[Bobby Bones]

Now here's Bobby and that. Everybody, welcome to the show. Hey, question. When you've played, and I know the culture of jersey swapping and signing wasn't a thing, at least not as outwardly. Did you guys do that? Did you have anybody's jersey from when you played against? You're like, can I get your jersey?

[Matt Castle]

No. And thinking back, I would have probably liked to try to get some of these guys that I played against and opponents that you just have a ton of respect for. But it really didn't come become popular until later in my career when some of these younger guys started to go out and swap jerseys and do all that. And I thought, man, that I really missed the boat on that one. Would have had a stacked up jersey case, you know, if you could go.

[Bobby Bones]

Back and get one. Go back, yeah. Oh, the G. Yeah, that's good.

[Matt Castle]

I mean, far, far as I've said multiple times on this show that he was just my childhood hero. One of those guys that I'd watch religiously, had the Brett Favre cleats in high school, you know, just. And then also it goes back to my playing days when my first start in New England in the NFL was against the jets and Brett Favre was the quarterback and he was the first guy to come up right after the game even though they lost, shake my hand and say, hey, I'm really excited for you. That was such a big moment for me.

[Bobby Bones]

Did he know you were a fan or was he just that person who.

[Matt Castle]

He was just that person. He had that type of, of polarizing personality that it was infectious. And you could tell, like the way he played on the field was also how he interacted with you before the Game after the game. And so that was cool to see that in person and actually have him come up because I really hadn't had any interaction with him prior to that.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Matt Castle]

It was pretty cool.

[Bobby Bones]

I did a deal once where I went up and I worked out with the Cardinals, and we were just shooting some content. And I'm a Cubs fan, so it was weird for me to wear anything Cardinals, but also, I'm an adult now, so.

[Matt Castle]

So you.

[Bobby Bones]

So it's fine.

[Matt Castle]

So, yeah, so I'm at a game.

[Bobby Bones]

It's not as romantic as I'm never wearing Cardinal. Although I'd still really struggle putting on a Texas Longhorns anything. But, you know what?

[Matt Castle]

Oh, is that Arkansas?

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, man. It's like, oh, yeah, it's inside of me. But I go up and we are shooting this stuff, and Paul Goldschmidt comes out, who's now with the Yankees, and he's had an awesome career, probably will be a Hall of Famer. And we're interviewing him, and he was like, you know, I used to listen to you when I was in college. I was like, 24. And he was like, 21. He was like, I listened to you in college when I was playing baseball. And I was like, no way goes. Yeah, we listen to you every morning. And, like. And so I took the microphone. This is such a stupid story, but.

[Matt Castle]

No, I like it already.

[Bobby Bones]

I took the microphone I was using, and small flex here, but I was the youngest person ever put into the Radio hall of Fame, and so I flex. Nobody cares, though. So it's really small. And so I signed it, and then I traded him a sign microphone for one of his signed bats.

[Matt Castle]

That's cool.

[Bobby Bones]

It was all. It was fun, and he thought it was funny. And so I still have the Paul Goldschmidt signed bat, like, from his locker.

[Matt Castle]

That's rad.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

I mean, that's a good exchange right there. See that?

[Bobby Bones]

And so I told him, I said, you're getting a Hall of Famer. I'm getting hopefully one, you know, and luckily, he's a good sport. Have you watched any of the quarterback series on Netflix?

[Matt Castle]

I've watched a little bit of it.

[Bobby Bones]

Have you watched season one or season two or both?

[Matt Castle]

I think it was season one with Mahomes Mariota. Was Cousins in that one as well? Yes, he was in two seasons. Right.

[Bobby Bones]

So Cousins is still on this season?

[Matt Castle]

On this season.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay. So. And I watched some of season one. I felt it was a little corny.

[Matt Castle]

At times, and I don't Think it.

[Bobby Bones]

Was the players, I think it was just how they would do the games. Like it just felt. But I liked it.

[Matt Castle]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

But there was a corniness to it that didn't keep me completely invested. So I just watched clips. But it did make me like Kurt Cousins because he didn't have anything to me other than wearing the, coming out, wearing the chain. I, I didn't understand like Kirk Cousins aura. I didn't understand what he was as a person. And not that a TV show gives you everything about a person, but it made me like Kirk Cousins.

[Matt Castle]

Right. He's a straight laced, really good dude. Like solid dude, solid human being. Right. And there's no ego involved. He's a true professional in every sense of the word. Word. And you can definitely see that as the season goes on, that his dedication to his craft, to being the quarterback, the responsibility that comes along with that, and then going out and trying to perform at a high level. I, I, I do believe that that show gives you great insight into the stresses and what takes place during a season, whether it's battling minor injuries or whether it's, you know, you go through a difficult loss and just the logistics that go on in a season. Because a lot of time you just see the byproduct of all the hard work that got put in during the week and you just see the, the final outcome on a Sunday. But you don't really understand how much preparation and work goes into a weekly base on a weekly basis to perform on Sunday.

[Bobby Bones]

There's a scene in this season where it's Kirk Cousins, his wife, talking about getting the call from the coach, saying, hey, we need to talk. Cousins goes in, basically is told you're not the starter anymore. And then Cousins comes home and is obviously upset, sad, disappointed, whatever it is, understands, but is all of that. And then she walks and she sees him talking to Michael Pennix on the phone like, this is your job now. Like, you got to get this. You've been waiting for this. How common is it that one quarterback would do something like that when they get pinched for the second quarterback?

[Matt Castle]

You know, I had a similar situation, I believe, when I was in my last year in Kansas City and Brady Quinn was our backup quarterback. Romeo Cornell was our, now our head coach. He was the interim head coach after Todd Haley got fired in my third year. And I was just coming back off of a concussion. And so I thought I was going to come back in and play. I sat out one week, Brady started that week and I thought I was coming back. And it was going to be my job still. And I got called in, and he said, hey, Matt, I know that this is tough circumstances, but we're going to go with Brady this week again. And, you know, nothing really prepares you for that type of conversation when you're the starter and you envision yourself as a starter. And it. It is a gut punch, for sure, but you have two different ways in which you can handle it. You can pout, you can get pissed off. You can be that guy that becomes a distraction, or you're a guy that spends a lot of time with these other quarterbacks. You spend so much time throughout the course of a year with these quarterbacks. They're all your buddies and your friends. And so I went up to Brady and I said, hey, I just got the news. You're going to be starting this week. And look, at the end of the day, I'm going to be your biggest supporter. I'm not here to try to, you know, go behind your back and, you know, rally these guys against you. If that. That's their decision. That's their decision. And it takes. You know, you got to put on your big boy pants when that happens, because you have to swallow your pride a little bit, and it's a difficult circumstance. But I don't know, I've also been around people that. It doesn't always go that way, and they go into meetings. They could become a shell of themselves. You can openly see it on their face and. In which they're. They're not there for the team. They're there for themselves, so to speak. And so at some point, especially when you play a team sport, I think the biggest thing that you've got to first and foremost do is, you know, you got to suck it up and do what's best for the team. Even though you might not agree with it.

[Bobby Bones]

If they were shooting this with the Patriots back when you played. Imagine the season where Brady gets hurt and you go in like, what do you think the three main storylines would have been?

[Matt Castle]

Well, obviously, a kid that hadn't started since high school would be the number one storyline there. I think it would be the relationship and the dynamic between Bill Belichick and how he's going to get this young upstart going and give him confidence, because he handled me differently than he had in years past when I was just the backup. He. He didn't ride me as much. He definitely held me accountable, don't get me wrong, but he'll. He brought me in. I remember one day we. We had lost to the San Diego Chargers at the time, and we got beat pretty substantially. And I was wavering a little bit just because you're still trying to earn the confidence of your teammates. At that point. He said, look, Matt, we're not bringing anybody else in. We've got you. We believe in you. And that was different because I hadn't had any discussion like that with him before, one on one, where he came up and openly said positive things and tried to reinforce that, hey, you're here for a reason. Now just go out and do your job to the best of your ability. And we think that, that, that'll be enough. And so I think that that dynamic would be interesting. And then there's also the Brady Castle relationship throughout the course. Oh, my goodness.

[Bobby Bones]

Tom Brady calling right now.

[Matt Castle]

Tom. Tom, hold on. I'll. I'll talk to you right after that about COVID two defense and why I should have run instead of throwing that ball into double defense. No, but then there's that relationship. And I think it was an interesting dynamic because of everything he was going through with the surgery. And then at the same time, something went wrong with the surgery. They had to go back in and all. All that stuff. But then the conversations that we would have on a weekly basis and the support factor that he had was definitely an interesting storyline. Maybe not as much as as we started to win games and started to see these guys and these veteran guys like Rodney Harrison and Matt Light and all the guys that I had had relationships with rally around me. Teddy Bruski and the confidence that started to breed through the team, even though they knew Tom Brady was in the shadows, was going to come back at some point, but started the belief within the building and not listening to all the other people talk about, oh, well, they're done for the year. They can't do anything because the quarterback situation's a major issue.

[Bobby Bones]

Were you traded right after that season?

[Matt Castle]

I was traded. So at first, because of the situation with Tom's knee and how long it would take, they franchised me. So I was franchised. So I was under contract.

[Bobby Bones]

And then that season start with you on the team?

[Matt Castle]

No, the next season did not start. So we're. So Scott Pioli, who is the head of player personnel with New England, got the GM job with new with the Kansas City Chiefs. And then shortly thereafter, I got a phone call from Bill Belichick that said he was making the trade for. From. For me and I was going to Kansas City.

[Bobby Bones]

Is that because they knew or they felt pretty positive about Brady's knee actually being able to. And they held on to you just in case.

[Matt Castle]

Right, right. And I think that I was the backup plan again, just, just in case he wasn't ready to go. They knew that they had somebody that could go out and win games. And so instead of just letting me become a free agent, they had me as the emergency plan basically under a franchise tender with the understanding that they had control over my rights and could trade me anywhere.

[Bobby Bones]

If you get traded and you're tagged. So if you get tagged, it's one year and it's like the average of the top five quarterbacks or whatever it was, that's a significant bump. And if you get franchised for that year but you're traded, do you still get paid the same amount that they franchised you for for that year?

[Matt Castle]

So I was traded under the franchise tag for the one year franchise tag. So I didn't have to sign a long term deal with Kansas City. But what it does do is gives you a bargaining chip for, as you said, the average of the top five players at that position. That, that's my starting point for year one moving forward to sign a long term deal. So I signed a six year deal with them. But that was kind of the bargaining chip that we had was eight. Well, this is, this is our starting point which was pretty significant at that point in my career, obviously.

[Bobby Bones]

So when they trade a franchise player, they're trading the franchise one year contract.

[Matt Castle]

Right. And a lot of times the other organization will not make a trade for a player until they get a deal in place. Because otherwise you get that player for one year and then they could play under the franchise tender and leave to go somewhere else. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So if somebody has been franchised, they decide to finally trade them, they'll try to make sure that a deal's in place, signed, sealed and delivered before they bring them in to their organization.

[Bobby Bones]

Who is the backup quarterback after you left New England?

[Matt Castle]

Kevin o'.

[Bobby Bones]

Connell.

[Matt Castle]

So Kevin o' Connell was there and then I think they, it was either the year I left or the following year that they brought in Jimmy Garoppolo.

[Bobby Bones]

Was o' Connell your backup?

[Matt Castle]

He was my backup. So he was drafted in like the second or third round. My, the fourth year, that's the year that Brady went down. I was in my final year of my rookie contract and they drafted him and I was like, oh boy, they already drafted my replacement. So I'm like sitting there battling my off during training camp saying, hey, this is job security. I got to win this job. Or they could maybe go with Kevin o' Connell and luckily I did. But all of a sudden Brady goes down and now Kevin OConnell's my backup quarterback. So then it was the two of us. And then maybe Matt Gutierrez they brought back as like a third string guy on the team as well. And the following year they might have drafted Jimmy the next year if not, then Kevin, I think was the backup quarterback the next year.

[Bobby Bones]

That's pretty cool. Your backups now the Vikings friggin head coach. Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

It's awesome.

[Bobby Bones]

Killing it.

[Matt Castle]

It's killing it.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

I mean, and he's such a good dude.

[Bobby Bones]

Was he a dude though too? You could see being a coach 100%.

[Matt Castle]

I mean I, I say that, but it was probably later on I started to see that that was the way that he was going to go in his trajectory. Whereas when you come in as a rookie quarterback, any rookie quarterback, especially in that situation, you're kind of fish out of water. You're trying to find your footing, understand what's going on. All the different elaborate calls that we had at the line of scrimmage, the checks. And I'd been in that system for four years, so there was a lot of a learning curve right there. But then as the discussions progressed over the years, you start to see immediately he, oh, he gets it.

[Bobby Bones]

Jeff Pearlman coming up next. He wrote books on Favre, bo Jackson, the 90s, Dallas Cowboys, Barry Bonds. He's got how many number one bestsellers you have? Kevin? 10 number one bestsellers. Like he has a book on Tupac coming out. He is literally one of my favorite interviews that I can do or anytime he's on anything I watch. We will talk to him coming up next.

[Jeff Pearlman]

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[Greg Rosenthal]

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[Greg Rosenthal]

25 years, 25 players before training camp kickstarts a new NFL season, NFL Daily is going to look back. It is a special six episode series where myself, Greg Rosenthal and some of the top NFL minds like Kevin Harlan, Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell make the case for each player. We're taking a look back, giving you NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. So who made the list? You know, Tom Brady's on it. Where's Patrick?

[Matt Castle]

Mahomes is into the end zone. Touchdown, Kansas City.

[Greg Rosenthal]

He's on it. How about Lamar Jackson?

[Matt Castle]

Jackson takes it himself. Look at him dart back and forth. Oh, he broke his ankles and he's got a touchdown. He is Houdini.

[Greg Rosenthal]

You are going to have to listen to find out. Listen to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years starting on June 30 on the iHeartra radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bobby Bones]

Like to welcome Jeff Pearlman, who I'd say is a friend. We never actually met in person, but like he. I don't know, we text. I'm like, it's cool. I'm texting with Jeff Pearlman. Jeff, thanks for coming on.

[Mina Kimes]

You know, I don't pick my friends easy, but if I can find one on TikTok, I'm all in.

[Bobby Bones]

So, yeah, a fun thing that Jeff did, because Jeff was. Are you an adjunct professor? Would that be your title there?

[Mina Kimes]

Correct.

[Bobby Bones]

And so will you explain to Matt the project that you did and that I was a part of?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. Well, Matt, you should be warned. You're gonna now you're gonna be roped into this.

[Matt Castle]

I can't wait.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, I do final product. I teach basically long form journalism at Chapman. Not that far from where you grew up. You know, you knew Chat. Did you know Chapman growing up?

[Matt Castle]

I know Chapman.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. Orange. Orange Circle. So we taught a final lesson. Was every. Every student, we do a draft of notable people. And Bobby was in this year's draft. In fact, he was the number one pick in the draft. And they have to write a, you know, 2,000 word profile of the person. So interview them, interviewing some of people from their lives and write these long pieces about them. So Bobby did go number one in the draft. He can always hold that over you.

[Matt Castle]

Was there any stiff competition though? Is what I' the next question I have to ask. Like who, who, who went second in the draft?

[Mina Kimes]

Well, I don't remember who went second in the draft. It was you never. Do you know Marcus Lattimore? Marcus Lattimore, I think went second, actually.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, wow.

[Mina Kimes]

The former. And so that's a pretty good pick right there. Yeah, you know Lattimore on Our. On a. On a projections, we had Lattimore going one. Bones going seventh. But so he.

[Bobby Bones]

No, I didn't know there was a projection list. I told Jeff. I'm kidding.

[Mina Kimes]

I'm kidding.

[Bobby Bones]

I said. I said, I'm happy to do it, because whatever you want me to do, I'm in. I said, but I'm so nervous about getting pick last. It's just like that, you know, from being a kid last and everything, that was. That was what I. And she did good, right? The grade was good.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. She got an A. I mean, you know, you were no Latimore, but you were very good.

[Bobby Bones]

Nice.

[Matt Castle]

Very, very.

[Bobby Bones]

Course, that's what I'm often told. You're no Lattimore, but we'll take.

[Matt Castle]

But you're the first overall pick. Let's go.

[Bobby Bones]

I do want to start Jeff with a question about something we've talked about on this show a whole bunch, and I would just like your opinion. Since you wrote on Barry Bonds, I have said. And it was a very hot take. Flamin hot. Nobody wants to touch it. That I think Barry Bonds was better at baseball than Michael Jordan was at basketball. What do you think about how that crazy hot take.

[Mina Kimes]

I mean, if you're. You have to throw in the fact that he was using performance enhancing drugs, obviously. Right. So we're saying that. We're allowing that as a thing. I probably would agree with you. I mean, when I was covering Bonds, I was at Sports Illustrated covering Bonds at his absolute freakish heyday when he was going over 70 in home runs, you couldn't pitch to him. I mean, the ultimate moment for me was they were playing the Diamondbacks, bases were loaded, and Buck Shawalter walked him intentionally to walk in a run because the fear of him hitting a grand slam was so great. I mean, that doesn't happen. So he definitely. He was unpatchable. You could not pitch the Barry Bonds. He had no weak spot in the strike zone. He could turn on anyone's fastball. So, yeah, at his best, Juice or not for just saying whatever, he was as. As great a performer as you'll see.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, I think Juice counts because it was just what we saw and what we got to live through. I felt smoking hot. Take that. He was. Nobody wanted to face him ever. Where Jordan was one of five, it's one on one with Bonds in the pitcher, you know, and so I felt like you could double team Jordan and make somebody else score. You really couldn't double team Bonds. What you could do is walk him or you could hit him. And that was pretty much it.

[Mina Kimes]

He, he was at a real unique place in his career. He basically had like when I was growing up, Ricky Henderson had the, you know, impenetrable strike zone. Like you couldn't pitch to Ricky Henderson. And Bonds is the only other guy I knew who had that, where he just, he had an incredible eye for the ball. You couldn't pitch to him. It's not like you could fool him on pitches. He had the Tony Gwynn intelligence, the Ricky Henderson strike zone and the Babe Ruth power all combined in one player. So, yeah, I mean, at his best, I've never seen anyone like that.

[Matt Castle]

Because of the performance enhancing, performance enhancing aspect to his career. Do you think that he doesn't get the credit for being the Michael Jordan of batting that otherwise he would if all these different stories didn't come out.

[Mina Kimes]

I think there's two things about it. I think number one, he definitely gets an asterisk to his name by a lot of people. I think number two, just being honest, being completely honest about this. He was, he was mean to people. Like he was a mean guy. He was a mean guy to cover. He was a mean guy to teammates. He was a mean guy to fans. He was, he was the kind of guy where like in basic terms you hold the door for him. He doesn't say thank you.

[Bobby Bones]

So, and this is my last Bonds question, but where do you think that is based? Like what's the trot? Because I might, I have some traits about me that are great, some that are awful based on how I grew up and the circumstances I grew up in, not good, but have made me really strong in some ways. And my at times, like my human emotional intelligence isn't great. But where did. What happened in Barry Bonds's life, do you think? Because you spent all this time learning about him and talking to people that knew him from all ages. Why did he become a.

[Mina Kimes]

I think it's a great question actually. I think a lot of what happened with Bonds has to do with being raised so his dad, Bobby Bonds was a major league star. The other primary male role model in his life, who some called his godfather was Willie Mays. And those two guys when they were playing baseball, it was the era where the black ball player should just be grateful for being here. And if a black ball player needed a day off, he was a complainer, he was a maligner for black ball player, asked for more and more for more money. He was ungrateful, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And I really think Barry saw from those guys, understandably, that, like, baseball wasn't going to treat you that well. And you had to be your own guy. You had to be resilient. You had to be a bad. You couldn't take anything at face value. These guys were going to pay you lip service, but they really weren't going to treat you well. And I just think from Bonds, from Willie Mays, from being growing up in the clubhouse around these guys, he developed a very severe shell that came off in very prickly ways. I mean, Willie Mays was not a fun guy to deal with. He was a joyful baseball player. Willie Mays was kind of the same way. Bobby Bonds was kind of the same way. They just developed a prickliness that didn't turn off.

[Matt Castle]

Jeff, you wrote the book Boys Will Be Boys, and it was about the glory days, the party nights of the Dallas Cowboys. Now, we all have heard these stories of the 1990s cowboys and their partying ways. When you think about those teams with all those different personalities, and then I think of Jimmy Johnson, right? And he kind of let them be themselves. How much of a role did he play in the success of keeping that group together and being able to go out and actually perform on Sundays with all the chaos going on outside the building?

[Mina Kimes]

All right, so he was. It's kind of amazing. Like, their first super bowl run. This is like Jimmy Johnson nutshell. Their first super bowl run. They play a playoff game against the Chicago Bears, and they're winning big. And late in the game, Jimmy Johnson inserts their backup running back to Emmett Smith. It's a guy named Kervin Richards who had been a star pit. I think he'd been a fourth round pick. The Cowboys, they insert him in the game. Playoff game. Cowboys are winning big. Insignificant fourth quarter. Kervin Richards fumbles twice. And after the game, Jimmy Johnson goes into Jerry Jones's office and says, I want to cut Kervin Richards. And Jimmy Johnson, Jerry Jones says, well, it's too late. We can't cut him because we can't replace his roster spot. I don't give a crap. We're cutting that guy. I don't want that guy on my team anymore. And he's like, are you sure you're going to have a man short cut him? And they cut Kervin Richards. And it wasn't like Jimmy Johnson hated Curvin Richards. His number one thing was, I want to send a message right to my team that, like, I will do this to you. And the other thing he did that. I, like, I don't know, kind of actually interested how you had this in your career. Like, he made it very clear I am not treating all of you the same. Like Trey Aikman, Emmett Smith, Charles Haley, Darren Woodson will get better treatment than Clayton Holmes and Kevin Smith. Like, that's just the way it is. And you guys need to know that with stardom comes better treatment and more empathy and more understanding. And I actually think the players who are lower on the totem pole responded to that with fear, fighting for your job all the time. And the players, like Aikman just felt comfort in knowing that their coach had their back. I don't know if that's uncommon or not. You would actually know better.

[Matt Castle]

Well, it's interesting because I played for Bill Belichick and Bill Belichick always treated everybody equally and nobody really got special treatment. And I'm talking about from Brady to Randy Moss. If you did something in a game that you need to be called out for, he'd call you out in front of the entire team. And so it was always this interesting dynamic because you definitely felt it as a young guy that you've got to step up, but you're going to be held accountable in every phase. Now, other coaches operate differently, and by that I mean same thing that you just kind of discussed was certain players have earned the right to not be thrown under the fire in front of the team, maybe talk to individually or have a discussion on the side. Whereas the younger players were the guys that were going to get most of the criticism in those meetings. So it was all based on the coach and what you would see. But Bill Belichick did it completely different.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[Bobby Bones]

What about, like Todd Haley or what about those other coaches you had? Were they different than Belichick in that way?

[Matt Castle]

Not so much like I remember Todd Haley. This is a funny story. We, Jackie Battle was on kickoff team and we had a kickoff or it was a punt team. Excuse me. And the ball was a touchback. Jackie Battle wasn't even around the ball, but Todd thought that he was the guy that was supposed to block it and get us to get a little down ball inside the 10 yard line. Well, he's running off the sideline and Jackie doesn't know what's going on. He can see Todd yelling on me. He's like, jackie, your is cut tomorrow. You're cut tomorrow. And to Todd's credit, the next day he found out it wasn't even Jackie Battle. It was another player. And so he went up and said, jackie, don't worry, your job's safe for now. Because I realized that wasn't even you. But I mean, he's coming off the field in the first quarter of a game yelling at him, you're cut, you're cut. So he, he kind of had the same. He came from that parcels tree where he's going to get after you, he's going to ride you, he's going to make sure that you're accountable like that. So it's all based on where these guys come from and the pedigree that they grew up in with all the.

[Bobby Bones]

Athletes that you've written and you've written a lot of books on a lot of great athletes. And I use the word athlete because I'm going to ask about Bo Jackson. Was Bo Jackson the best athlete of all of the athletes that you've covered or did he just choose wisely?

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, no, there's no, there's no close second. There's no close second. I mean, it sounds fictional. Okay, I acknowledge it sounds fictional. He ran a 41340 at Auburn and he was 220 pounds and a track star. He shows up at the Raiders and he puts on pads and Tom Flores is a coach and he's like, let's have you do a 40 almost for entertainment. And you're in a 41 9. And they didn't believe it, so they laid it out again and he ran a 41 7. Like he was. I always say, like, this is what I always say. People are like, Bo Jackson, blah, blah. I'm like, all right, there have been other Tyree Kill super fast, right? Whoever. Barry Bonds, super powerful. The clip of Barry Bonds climbing up the wall in Baltimore, literally running toward a wall, thinking, I can either stop and pop something, run forward, running up the wall, running across the wall, running down the wall. There's no other footage of any other human doing that ever. Like, literally, there's one person who has climbed up a Major League Baseball wall during a game, run across the wall and run down the wall, and that's Bo Jackson. I always say that to me, is the perfect embodiment of who he was, that he's the only human being on the planet who could run up the wall, run across the wall. He was just the unparalleled merging of power and strength and strength and speed. Just. There's no one like it.

[Matt Castle]

How much money do you think he'd make in the nil space now in today's college game?

[Mina Kimes]

I mean, I mean, pick The Max he was playing at Auburn, he was a super duper dude. I mean, it's funny. Like he was, you know, they're all getting paid under the table back then and. And in hindsight, it was his pennies. He'd be the one thing he lacked. I mean, the one thing he actually lacked is charisma. Like he was not a charismatic human being. He had a stutter. He grew up with a stutter. It took him a long time to feel confident talking. So I don't know how great he would have been at that stage in his life as a pitchman. Even if you look at the Bo Knows campaign, Bo knows baseball, Bo knows football. One of the great keys of that is, you have to say very much it was a limited interactive advertising series that worked wonders. So I think the one thing he would try, like he would not be a TikTok superstar, he wouldn't be an Instagram superstar as a conversationalist, but his athleticism was so freaky. The other thing is it's a problem with nowadays, like a lot of Bo Jackson truly was the mythology of it all. Like here in a 41340, it's been documented, blah blah blah, but there is no video of it. You know, like the people with the Raiders swear they clocked him at 419. Showed me the 49 clocking, but there's no video of it. And there's something about seeing stuff that actually removes the mythology of it all. Like once you see it, it feels a little less. It's like Babe Ruth's pointed shots. The reason that's so mythological is because we can't see it. I feel like the same thing with Bo Jackson and once you splash stuff on tick tock, it loses a little bit of like Shohei Otani. If he'd come along in the 70s, we'd be talking about these things he did that you wouldn't believe. But now we can see him and they seem a little less believable, less amazing because we see him, if that makes sense.

[Bobby Bones]

Because Bo Jackson was from a small town and he played these sports young. Was he like playing shortstop and pitching and playing quarterback and where they put the best athletes and then eventually he ends up being a running back and an outfielder.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, he was a pitcher who threw in the 90s. He had no control. He played shortstop in high school. I think he had 40 something errors at shortstop. Like he had no glove at shortstop. Was drafted by the Yankees a little bit with the idea of being a shortstop. Never signed with the Yankees. Didn't play basketball, sucked at basketball, was obviously really good at football, played, played on the defense, play. You know, you played both ways back then, obviously. And he was just really drafted more than anything as just a supernova athlete, you know, who could do everything, but he couldn't play basketball, couldn't dribble a lick of basketball.

[Matt Castle]

What do you think his career would have been if he didn't get that injury to the hip against the Bengals? What do you think the outlook of or the projection of what he would have become?

[Mina Kimes]

So I think he was a better football player than a baseball player. Like, I think in football he probably has an Eric Dicker. You know, he's in that. He's on that conversation with Eric Dickerson and Walter Payton and Marcus Allen and all those guys. I think in baseball, his thing about baseball was he never. Like, he never. Because he chose to play football, he never took the time to learn the things in baseball you need to learn. Pitch selection, reading the motion to reading a defense, looking where the second baseman is playing, none of that stuff at all. So, like, physically, he was compared to a Roberto Clemente, a Mike Trout, a Mickey Mantle. Um, I think realistically, if he'd continued to play, he probably would have had a Gary Sheffield type career, which is a great career and a borderline hall of Fame career. I think football was definitely his better sport. But he was exceptional both. I mean, he's an all Star in baseball and a Pro Bowler in football.

[Bobby Bones]

I do want to go over to Brett Favre. A lot of people don't know about the car accident that almost killed Brett. And you wrote about it in your book. Tell. Tell us about that and just talk about it from the beginning a bit. Because again, I didn't know about it until I read it.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, my God. Well, it was at Southern Miss. He almost died. Like, that's the thing people don't know about Brett Favre. He almost died in a car accident. Had to miss. I forgot what year it was. I wrote that book a while ago now. I forgot what year it was he missed. But the basic idea was he wouldn't play football again. At first it was he's not going to play this season. Then it's like, he's not going to play the end of the season. But then Favre just shows up and plays like the guy was just say what you want about far. There's a lot of good, there's a lot of bad. Like, what he developed at Southern Miss was his air of indestructibility. You know, like, I mean first this is off topic a little bit. First game ever. He wasn't even really on the depth chart and they're playing Tulane and the coach throws him in late favor dad, I think he said he had 18 beers the night before and he's on the sideline and the head coach is like great, you're going in and he vomits all over the sideline, goes in and beats Tulane. Like no matter what that guy did almost die in a car accident. 18 beers waste on the sideline. He just always found a way. So he was supposed to be dead and instead he winds up just playing.

[Greg Rosenthal]

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[Brandon Ray]

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[Kevin Harlan]

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[Greg Rosenthal]

25 years, 25 players before training camp kickstarts a new NFL season, NFL Daily is going to look back. It is a special six episode series where myself, Greg Rosenthal and some of the top NFL minds like Kevin Harlan, Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell make the case for each player. We're taking a look back giving you NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. So who made the list? You know Tom Brady's on it. Where's Patrick Mahomes?

[Matt Castle]

Mahomes is into the end zone. Touchdown Kansas City.

[Greg Rosenthal]

He's on it. How about Lamar Jackson?

[Matt Castle]

Jackson takes it himself. Look at him dart back and forth. Oh he broke his ankles and he's got a touchdown. He is Houdini.

[Greg Rosenthal]

You are going to have to listen to find out. Listen to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years starting on June 30th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast us.

[Matt Castle]

In your opinion.

[Bobby Bones]

What?

[Matt Castle]

What was it about far that people just gravitated to and drew them about his play on the field.

[Mina Kimes]

You know it's funny like he just had this thing like the years. I would say the post retirement years have not been kind to Brett Favre reputation wise. If we take the Jen Sterger thing, the Mississippi welfare thing the, the thing that was really interesting about him is like, guys just like felt him. Like, you could be, you could be a black wide receiver from la, you could be a running back from the sticks of Louisiana. He had this way of really relating to people and this aw, shucks thing about relating to people and also, like, I will die for you. Like, there are a million clips of Brett Favre throwing these ridiculous blocks on like end arounds where a lot of quarterbacks might sound a skirt out of the way a little bit. He just would freaking die for you. That was the biggest thing about five, you know, and like, he was factually likable. He was beers after the game. In an era where that was fading out, he was, oh, you want to hang out? Let's go duck hunting, let's go here, blah, blah, blah. Black wide receivers love that guy. The offensive lineman, the white guys who went hunting love that guy. Like, he had a very unique relatability. It's one of the things I think that happened to Aaron Rodgers in a way is he walked into a trap in Green Bay because Aaron Rodgers isn't that guy, wasn't that guy, couldn't be that guy. But people were so used to that guy in Favre. But there's only, there are very few guys like that, like a Terry Bradshaw, that type of guy, you know.

[Bobby Bones]

We're just a few months out from the Tupac book coming out. Why Tupac.

[Mina Kimes]

Love Tupac Felt like there'd never been a definitive, definitive, definitive interview. 650 people dig fully into his life. Book written. I want to try something beyond sports. All my books have been sports, My career has been sports. And I just thought, here's a guy I'm genuinely fascinated by, a guy whose music speaks to me. And I thought, why not a white sports writer? You know, why not? That's the one thing my agent said to me. I'm gonna be honest, my agent's like, he's like, you know, there's going to be. Some people are going to be like, why a white sports writer? And I think it's a fair question. And I just, from the beginning I'd be like, because I'm fascinated by this guy. And there's a book out there that I want to read that I haven't seen yet. So I'm going to try writing it.

[Matt Castle]

When you say you interviewed 650 people, which I believe you obviously.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Talk to me about how much information of that 650 interviews you actually use or just use as cross referencing to make sure The. I. I'm just. It's so interesting to me that you can go and go into that much detail, but take 650 references for one book.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, it drives me crazy. It's so like, example I used a lot is like, all right, Tupac went to the Baltimore School of Performing Arts for two years. That was his high school. And I got all the yearbooks, right? So you go in there and you go name by name through the yearbooks and you literally make a file for everyone. Not the. Just as classmates, but everyone who is there. Teachers, staff, janitors, etc, and one by one, you reach out to these people and like, in a way, the best example I use is like, Brett Favre, right? You work on a Brett fart. This, this is my guiding principle in life, actually, as a journalist. Brett Favre played all those years of football. At some point, there was a free agent running back from Lehigh in training camp with the packers, right? He was there for three weeks. Brett Favre isn't going to remember anything. He probably wouldn't even remember that guy existed. Bob Jones from Lehigh. But Bob Jones from Lehigh is going to remember the one time Brett Favre walked up to him and offered him a bag of Pringles, right? Bob Jones is going to remember that for the rest of his life. The free agent from Lehigh who's telling that story at family reunions, barbecues, etc, for the rest of his life. That's the same with Tupac. At Baltimore School for the Arts, you find the one person who's like, oh, yeah, I used to have lunch with him on Tuesdays. He always drank blank, or I was in his class. The one thing I remember is, is I always used to listen to this Kate Bush song, blah, blah, blah. So, like, out of the 650 interviews, I probably quote 300 of the people directly. Of the information I get, like the 10,000 pages of information, I probably use 3%, right? Like in the book. Literally 3%. But even knowing it could be someone, could be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, boring, boring, boring, boring. You know, Tupac always used to drink Diet Pepsi. Bingo. Like, that little detail tells you something different than he used to drink soda. He used to drink Diet Pepsi. It tells you something about someone. So you're always just looking for those little details, scouring the little details, if that makes sense.

[Matt Castle]

Totally.

[Bobby Bones]

I got two questions left for you with Tupac especially. And by the way, you can pre order the book now, Only God Can Judge Me the Many Lives of Tupac, but comes out October 21st. So just a few months away from that. A lot of thoughts of Tupac, and especially since he's been dead, it's easy to create conspiracies around people who can't say the conspiracy is not true. So one, is Tupac alive?

[Mina Kimes]

Two, no.

[Bobby Bones]

There are theories that Tupac was playing the role of a straight rapper but was actually a gay actor. Because you've seen like clips of him when he was younger. Thoughts on both of those?

[Mina Kimes]

He's not alive, he's dead. That I can tell you. He was. It's interesting. I interviewed. I've interviewed multiple people about Tupac, obviously, and you get into his sexuality and there's always been this interview that people cite when he was in. At Tam High School in Northern California and he, he was a high school senior and he does this very effeminate, flamboyant interview. I would say Tupac was fluid, sexually fluid to a certain degree. I don't know if this is a term primarily straight. Like if you look at his later career, especially Death Row, primarily straight. But would I say he was? He was. I think he was probably. I think in modern days he would probably go down as. By leaning towards straight, like more women than men, but definitely had experiences in his life.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, the video is what I was thinking of because they show that everybody that has the case of, you know, Tupac was just playing a role or he was an industry plant in the 90s and he was really just a thespian, an actor who was gay. Look at this clip of him in high school. Like, that's always what they cite.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, that annoys me, actually. I mean, Tupac was basically. He's a really interesting guy. Like, actually my brother in law said to me the other day, he's like, he's reading a book and he's like, he reminds me of Tyler, the creator. Like Tupac then reminds me a little of Tyler creator. And I'm like, that's a pretty good comparison. Like, Tupac in a lot of ways was the kid in the Baltimore School for the Arts hallway listening to Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel, listening to Don McLean writing poems all day, writing love letters to his girlfriend, a streak of peroxide down his flat top, his gumby haircut with torn jeans that he spray painted. Like he was a very artistic soul. And I think what he became later on at Death Row was kind of real. But I also think kind of like what he needed to be at that point. I think a lot of Tupac's life was being what he needed to be in The Moment to survive.

[Bobby Bones]

You guys, check out the book. Pre order it now. Only God Can Judge Me. The Many Lies of Tupac. It's in the mail. Or it's close to in the mail. I'm ready to read it.

[Matt Castle]

I am too.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. So I'll give Matt my version when I'm done.

[Mina Kimes]

I have a question. Are you guys cool? My next book? Actually. I didn't tell you this, but I'll make it here. It's. It's called Living the Dream. Matt Castle and the 2018 Detroit Lions.

[Matt Castle]

I don't know if that was much of a dream or a nightmare.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, that's more like a pamphlet, huh?

[Matt Castle]

Exactly. It's pretty short.

[Bobby Bones]

Like a mini. You guys follow Jeff. Great. Tick tock. Can you give us one? Can I ask you one more question, Jeff? I know we're short. We're short on time. Will you tell Matt? Because I. I know the story, but I don't want to step on the story. Will you tell Matt the story about your wife? I said pamphlet, and it's what kind of clicked in my head, and that's all I want to say. Will you tell Matt the story about your wife?

[Mina Kimes]

Are you talking about my wife donating the kidney?

[Bobby Bones]

Yes.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, of course. So my wife Catherine is a social worker, and five years ago, she is in a. She's going to love that I'm telling this story, actually, because she's such a good person. She's in the Starbucks out here in Southern California and she sees a. A flyer hanging up, and it's from a woman. And she's like, my husband, blah, blah, blah, needs a kidney. He's been on dialysis for years. We're looking for a match. My wife comes home and she's like. She's like, how crazy would it be if I donated a kidney to a stranger? And I'm like, knowing her, not that crazy. It's kind of who she is. And she went in for all the testing at ucla. She was a match. She donated her kidney to a stranger. Not only did she donate her kidney a stranger, it's one of the best stories ever. They've become some of our closest friends. We go every year to their house for Christmas Eve with their family. They come to our house for, like, Hanukkah and Thanksgiving at different events. And, like, it's become this real bond. And it's all because she saw this flyer and she donated a kidney. One of the best stories.

[Matt Castle]

What an incredible crazy human.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Let alone just off a whim.

[Bobby Bones]

Hey, saw this flyer like change someone's life. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Castle]

I need a kidney.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

And now you guys are best friends. What a remarkable human, Jeff.

[Bobby Bones]

We really appreciate that.

[Mina Kimes]

Still married.

[Bobby Bones]

Is.

[Mina Kimes]

She's still married. A sportswriter. Despite that good judgment.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, I'm also surprised at how much pickup basketball you play. And. And I don't. I don't believe in the jinx, so I don't care. I don't how you play. And you're not like, limping around because I'm afraid to play because I'll pop an Achilles at any time doing anything. I am limping around, but not like real limping. Like, yeah, like you guys. It seems like every week you're playing pickup ball and I'm like, man, Perlman.

[Mina Kimes]

Just goes, the game isn't so good anymore. It's a lot of down, back to the basket, you know, little. Little pump fakes, ball fakes, stuff like that. But yeah, I still play. I appreciate that.

[Bobby Bones]

Jeff Pearlman. You guys follow him on Tick Tock. He's the best. And the book's coming out and if you're just a sports fan and no, no more time. But his book Showtime ended up being winning time. So about the Lakers, which was a great series which should have never been canceled. Stupid co. One of the worst things about COVID other than people dying, obviously, that that show was cancelled because it was an excellent show and congratulations on everything. We really appreciate the time, Jeff.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Matt Castle]

Thanks, Jeff.

[Jeff Pearlman]

Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding. That's why loyalty members get more every day with rewards for every home or business purchase. Plus shop weekly member deals and get access to free standard shipping. So what are you waiting for? Join my Lowe's Rewards for free today loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change.

[Greg Rosenthal]

Everyone loves a good MVP story. And the story of Wasabi Technologies is one of the best. Wasabi. Wasabi is purpose built to free businesses from skyrocketing storage costs and unpredictable egress fees. From the hyperscalers, Wasabi is the world's hottest cloud storage company, becoming the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams and leagues around the world. And here's why. From Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air to the industry's only cloud storage service. With triple protection against cybercriminals, data deletion and ransomware. Wasabi has taken the lead in driving innovation in data storage, eliminating overhead where it matters. To deliver your results, you can count on and won't break the bank. In fact, Wasabi is up to 80% less than market competition and doesn't charge a cent for businesses to access their own data. Wasabi Another championship story. Check them out for [e-mail] Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage proud partner of iheart podcast.

[Brandon Ray]

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[Kevin Harlan]

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[Greg Rosenthal]

25 years, 25 players before training camp kickstarts a new NFL season, NFL Daily is going to look back. It is a special six episode series where myself, Greg Rosenthal and some of the top NFL minds like Kevin Harlan, Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell make the case for each player. We're taking a look back giving you NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. So who made the list? You know Tom Brady's on it where's Patrick Mahomes.

[Matt Castle]

Touchdown, Kansas City.

[Greg Rosenthal]

He's on it. How about Lamar Jackson?

[Matt Castle]

Jackson takes it himself. Look at him. Dirt back and forth. Oh, he broke his ankles and he's got a touchdown. He is Houdini.

[Greg Rosenthal]

You are gonna have to listen to find out, listen to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years, starting on June 30 on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bobby Bones]

Let's play a game. Kevin, what is the game called?

[Steve Wych]

Start, cut and bench.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, is this like f marry kill?

[Steve Wych]

Yeah, pretty much football version of it.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Got it. So start. How about start, bench, cut.

[Steve Wych]

Yeah, Yeah, I guess that makes more sense.

[Matt Castle]

They can't even get to the bench.

[Bobby Bones]

By the way. How do you say the game? And I'm going to do my hand. So physically. But how do you say this game?

[Matt Castle]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Bobby Bones]

Interesting, because I don't say it in that. That, that order.

[Matt Castle]

How do you say it?

[Bobby Bones]

Paper, rock, scissors. I've never met anybody that says scissors. Paper, rock. No one leaves.

[Matt Castle]

Nobody leaves with scissors. Paper, rock, scissors. For sure.

[Bobby Bones]

I would say rock, paper, scissors. What would you say, Brandon?

[Greg Rosenthal]

Paper, rock, scissors.

[Bobby Bones]

You would say paper?

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. Paper, rock.

[Steve Wych]

That's weird.

[Bobby Bones]

I say rock, rock, paper, scissors, scissors. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Castle]

What did I say?

[Bobby Bones]

What do you say?

[Matt Castle]

I said rock, paper, scissors.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

No, you said paper, rock, scissors. I don't know. Now I'm confused.

[Matt Castle]

You said paper, rock, scissors. Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

You said I would say paper, rock, scissors. What are we gonna play? Let's do paper. I would say let's do paper, rock, scissors.

[Matt Castle]

Perfect.

[Bobby Bones]

That's what I would say.

[Steve Wych]

Let's play start, bench, cut.

[Mina Kimes]

Okay.

[Matt Castle]

Start, bench, cut.

[Bobby Bones]

Before we get to start, bench cut. What do you call those things at the movies that run before the movie starts?

[Matt Castle]

Previews.

[Bobby Bones]

Got it.

[Matt Castle]

What do you call them? Trailers.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, I don't call them trailers, but there is a large contingent of people who call them trailers.

[Matt Castle]

The people in the biz or the.

[Bobby Bones]

People I don't know. The two people I know are from.

[Matt Castle]

The midwest so they refer to them as oh, I'm gonna get there early and watch the trails.

[Bobby Bones]

Trailers. Because they are trailers. But I would say previews previous. What do you call. What do you call if you're gonna go get a soda from that gas station? What do you call it?

[Matt Castle]

I don't call it a pop. I call it a soda.

[Bobby Bones]

You would even call it a soda. See, we call everything was a Coke. Where I'm from, everything was a Coke.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, that was the weird part, because my family, my cousins and stuff, grew up in Ohio. They either called it a Coke or a pop.

[Bobby Bones]

And it was.

[Matt Castle]

We always said soda.

[Bobby Bones]

Soda for me now, because I've had.

[Matt Castle]

To learn to adapt to the.

[Bobby Bones]

Just not have a super distinct Southern dialect.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. Because a Coke, you could still say a Coke where you're from. It could be a Sprite.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, for sure. It almost was never the actual Coca Cola product. Hey, what do you want to drink? Give me a Coke. What kind? Dr. Pepper. Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Interesting.

[Bobby Bones]

Anyway, just a little vernacular exercise.

[Steve Wych]

Little regional thing there.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay, so the game is called Start, bench, Cut.

[Matt Castle]

Start, bench, cut.

[Bobby Bones]

Start, bench, Scissors.

[Matt Castle]

Start, bench, Scissors.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Steve Wych]

So you got to start one, you got to bench one, and you got to cut one. I'm going to go through five colleges now. These are the players, quarterbacks in their college days, not NFL, just when they were in college, playing for these programs.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay. We'll take turns going first. Okay, so you go first on the first one.

[Steve Wych]

All right. Number one is Oklahoma. You got Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, and Caleb Williams.

[Matt Castle]

Okay, I'm going to start.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, did all three want a Heisman?

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Mina Kimes]

Wow.

[Bobby Bones]

Because I started to go. Well, Caleb won a Heisman. They all three. One Heisman.

[Matt Castle]

Start Kyler Murray. No. Oh. Only. But we're talking about when they were in college.

[Bobby Bones]

College.

[Steve Wych]

Yep.

[Matt Castle]

Start Kyler Murray. Bench Baker Mayfield. And cut. Dang. My boy Williams.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay, I'm going to start Baker Mayfield and I'm going to tell you why. The dude was a walk on twice.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, he was awesome.

[Bobby Bones]

And because all three of these guys are elite, which is what makes the game hard and fun. The fact that he was a walk on at Tech and went over to Oklahoma, did the same freaking thing. And didn't Kyler wait on Baker Mayfield to graduate before he even got to start?

[Steve Wych]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Yes. Like, Baker stayed in, I think, an extra year or two, and Kyler just stayed and sat out and then balled out. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna start Baker.

[Matt Castle]

Okay.

[Bobby Bones]

Although I'm gonna have to pay him more nil money probably than the other two because he had a big, bigger personality.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

Than the other two. And personality is really. That plus talent equals nil.

[Matt Castle]

Nil.

[Bobby Bones]

So, Baker, I'm gonna bench Kyler just like in the old days.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

And then I'm gonna cut Caleb, who didn't play on the team when he was, like, four.

[Matt Castle]

Well, he was only. He was only there also for, like, a year.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Steve Wych]

But he balled out when he came in for Rattler.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, right. He did. He balled out and he left with his coach. But he left.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

So he. I mean, the cut thing. He kind of cut himself.

[Bobby Bones]

He did win the freaking Heisman, though.

[Matt Castle]

It's tough because they're all usc, though.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. It's pretty amazing.

[Bobby Bones]

They all won the Heisman.

[Matt Castle]

I know.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, you don't count as. You can't count as usc. I thought he said college.

[Matt Castle]

He did.

[Steve Wych]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. But for the.

[Steve Wych]

But he. He was at Oklahoma, technically, you know, so if they're all on the same team and. Yeah, he won the Heisman, just not out.

[Bobby Bones]

All right, what else?

[Matt Castle]

All right, I'll give another one.

[Steve Wych]

Florida, Danny Werfel, Tim Tebow and Rex Grossman.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay. I'm going Tebow number one. Yeah, without a doubt. And speaking of which, Nil money you got. We have none left after Baker. But I'm talking about. We are deep in debt. We are deep in debt with Tebow. And he's donating it all, too. Like we just gave.

[Matt Castle]

Donating it.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

He's got programs all over the world.

[Bobby Bones]

Babies are getting circumcised in every country, so.

[Matt Castle]

Pilgrimage. Pilgrimage.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm going Tebow at one. And you had it. We're following. Who?

[Steve Wych]

Grossman. Max Grossman.

[Matt Castle]

Did Warfel win a national championship there with. With Florida?

[Bobby Bones]

I believe he did. You should fact check me on this.

[Mina Kimes]

Yep.

[Bobby Bones]

Because I believe the old ball coach. I mean.

[Steve Wych]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

That was all.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm going to go Warful. I'm just going from memory, though. Like, who do I remember more playing.

[Steve Wych]

Yeah. 96.

[Bobby Bones]

They want a title, right?

[Steve Wych]

They want it.

[Mina Kimes]

Yep.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm gonna go Warful. And then Grossman. But Grossman, I don't know. Grossman was.

[Matt Castle]

He's a good player.

[Bobby Bones]

So good. I know.

[Matt Castle]

He was really good.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm letting his NFL days.

[Steve Wych]

I know.

[Bobby Bones]

Which is unfair because Warfel didn't have the. The run Grossman had in the NFL. But because he. We didn't see him as much. We don't think of him being terrible. Because Grossman with the Bears went to the Super Bowl. Yes. But I'm telling you, the Gross. In my mind, Grossman. The Bears went to the super bowl in lieu of. Well, their defense was pretty good, spite of Grossman.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And it's not fair because that's not true. But I'm gonna go Warful, then Grossman.

[Matt Castle]

I'm gonna do the exact same.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. I mean, Warfel won a national championship. Tim Tebow's. Tim Tebow. The next coming. And Rex Grossman was an outstanding quarterback in college, but between those two, that's where I'm going.

[Bobby Bones]

The negative association I have with Grossman is totally unfair, though. It is. It is.

[Matt Castle]

He gets a bad rap.

[Mina Kimes]

Yep.

[Bobby Bones]

And because. And I'm gonna tell you what else is unfair. I think a Grossman with the Bears, and I also think of Mitch Trubisky with the Bears, who had a lot of hype and didn't play. So then I associate those two together. So then I feel worse about Grossman because I feel like he's Mitch Trubisky and they picked him over my homes. Like, this is unfair. Where my mind goes, oh, wow.

[Steve Wych]

Yeah, that's a rabbit hole.

[Bobby Bones]

So like Grossman compared to my homes. Yeah, all three are awesome. All right, next up, okay, Oregon.

[Steve Wych]

Here you got Marcus Mariota, Justin Herbert, and Joey Harrington.

[Matt Castle]

Okay, I'm going with Marcus Mariota, start. Joey Harrington, bench. And I'm going with Justin Herbert, cut.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm gonna go the same recency bias. Maybe a bit here, but I'm also the reason. I'm gonna go with. I started with Mariota. I remember Mario Day. And we were up there. There's a whole facility.

[Matt Castle]

It's the most amazing facility ever. It's like the little island.

[Bobby Bones]

Yes. It's crazy.

[Matt Castle]

The island with all of his high school teammates and everything there. He's a God.

[Bobby Bones]

And Joey Harrington was on the COVID of college football back in the day on PlayStation. So that automatically gets him on the team.

[Matt Castle]

Do you remember the billboard that they had for his Heisman Trophy in New York? Right?

[Bobby Bones]

They put it up in New York.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, they put it up in New York. It was just Joey Herrington.

[Bobby Bones]

Super tall.

[Matt Castle]

Super tall.

[Bobby Bones]

That was it. Okay, we're the same on that one. Give us another one.

[Steve Wych]

Okay, Texas. Here you got Vince Young.

[Bobby Bones]

None. Eliminate them all.

[Steve Wych]

Colt McCoy, Vince Young, and Chris Sims.

[Matt Castle]

Just as you said, them.

[Bobby Bones]

So, yeah, the Chris Sims issue that I have is I was there whenever it was Sims and Applewhite. And Sims was brought in as the big five star, but Applewhite was still winning. And it was constant. Who's gonna start? And there was, like, Drama and Apple White got her, and so that. I was just annoyed by the whole situation. Sims is third.

[Matt Castle]

You don't like the controversy?

[Bobby Bones]

I don't like Texas. And so that. That made me more.

[Matt Castle]

So you said cut them all.

[Bobby Bones]

Yes. Vince Young did win a national championship.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

Sorry. Against your boys.

[Matt Castle]

I know.

[Bobby Bones]

That was. That was.

[Matt Castle]

That was probably the greatest. Maybe one of probably the greatest college football game of all time.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, I was.

[Matt Castle]

I was living in three Heisman Trophy winners just in that game. Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, and did Vince Young.

[Steve Wych]

No, he lost the line.

[Matt Castle]

No, he lost the line.

[Bobby Bones]

But also usc, they had Bush. They had thunder and lightning.

[Matt Castle]

Lindell White.

[Bobby Bones]

Lindell White, Reggie Bush, Dwayne Jerry, that was Wayne. Jerry, that was crazy.

[Matt Castle]

Mike Williams.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm gonna go. Vince Young, then Colt McCoy. And Vince gets it because. But Vince was like Cam Newton, unstoppable.

[Matt Castle]

He was an absolute of nature.

[Bobby Bones]

He was. And we. Again, I'm not associated NFL. I shouldn't do anything.

[Matt Castle]

NFL, dual threat, quarterback, everything.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. Vince Young, Cole McCoy, then Chris Sims.

[Steve Wych]

You too, Matt. Same thing.

[Matt Castle]

Same thing.

[Steve Wych]

All right, last one here, usc.

[Matt Castle]

Boom.

[Steve Wych]

Okay, we got Carson Palmer, Matt Leiner, and our boy Matty Castle.

[Bobby Bones]

Boom.

[Matt Castle]

Are we talking just about college?

[Steve Wych]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

Can we. Can we kill. Can we put the kill one back in and get a new.

[Matt Castle]

Well, I'm cutting line art because that means I'm playing.

[Bobby Bones]

That's funny.

[Matt Castle]

That's funny. All right, well, if we're talking just about college, I mean, I played with all these dudes. CPAC is the most physically impressive human I've ever been around before we called him cpac. Carson Palmer, special, number one draft pick overall, physically.

[Bobby Bones]

Why? Because I don't think of him.

[Matt Castle]

Dude, he's six five barrel chested, has an absolute cannon for an arm footwork. Like, he's six one. Like, his feet were just dynamic when it. Talk about perfect foot, footwork, dropbacks, you know, like with those old clips that used to see of Aikman. Just in rhythm. This guy had it all. And not only that, I think he ran a 4, 5 4, 6 coming out.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm glad you said that because. Did you guys think of him as like a superior.

[Steve Wych]

No.

[Bobby Bones]

As a superior quarterback? Yes. But obviously we didn't know him arms length.

[Matt Castle]

He's a freak athlete.

[Bobby Bones]

That's crazy. I didn't know that.

[Steve Wych]

465.

[Matt Castle]

465, dude.

[Steve Wych]

Wow.

[Matt Castle]

Telling you, it's six.

[Bobby Bones]

He's white. So he seems slow. And he's a quarterback, so he seems slow. Slow.

[Steve Wych]

And he stands super tall. So, yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, he's that big.

[Matt Castle]

And. And he was at a time where USC was struggling and kind of brought us back into prominence. Like when his senior year, when he came back and made the decision to come back, we went to the Orange bowl and we beat. I. I think it was Iowa for the first. First Orange bowl victory. That's really what Set Pete Carroll up in that kind of dynasty, but he took the program to the next level. So I'm going to go with Carson Palmer. I like how I stayed the first, but you're going to have to go with Matt Leinart, obviously. Heisman Trophy. Both those guys, Heisman Trophy winners. But Matt won, what, two national championships back to back. And then, I mean, I'd still like to be on the team, but obviously.

[Bobby Bones]

If we've got a spot, we have a spot for you.

[Matt Castle]

We got a spot for you. Thanks, Coach Carol. That's exactly what I came here for. Go get my head beat in.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, I guess I got to go with the same.

[Matt Castle]

Okay.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. Out of loyalty, though. You know what? I'm going to put Castle in my backup. The guy did great work as a backup later in life. You know, we can't go there, but.

[Steve Wych]

And the versatility.

[Matt Castle]

A starter, too.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay.

[Matt Castle]

Don't get. Don't kid yourself.

[Bobby Bones]

That's right. Thank you, guys for listening. Here's what I can't wait for. Football. We've done this podcast now for months and months without any football. We've gone through the absolute hardest.

[Matt Castle]

We started, what, in December?

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. Like, when it was over, except for, like, the Super Bowl.

[Matt Castle]

We. We got to talk about the playoffs with the super bowl, and then it was just offseason minutia.

[Bobby Bones]

We have just been grinding through it.

[Matt Castle]

I'm ready to talk about real football.

[Bobby Bones]

When's media days?

[Matt Castle]

Next week. Next week? The 22nd through the 24th. So we've got four teams a day for three days straight. It'll be fun. Or maybe more than that. How many teams do they have now?

[Bobby Bones]

What do you mean? Oh, you mean like, they take the podium?

[Matt Castle]

Like, what will they. So we'll do interviews on the side. So what? Every. Every big network like NBC, cbs, whoever has Fox, they'll all have their own space and rooms set up. So you'll come in and they'll do individual interviews with coaches, players. I might do something on the side for their socials, talk to some of the quarterbacks and do all that. And then it's just about interactions with the coaches on the field. And then they'll go up and they'll. They've got about, I think, five, 10 minutes on the podium and kind of talk about their program, promote their program, give us kind of their feelings about this upcoming season. It might be schedule. And then at night, they'll have some dinners that you get to go to and once again, rub elbows with these guys and kind of talk to them and get to know them a little bit more. So it's, it's a fun time and it's also a great kickoff to the season.

[Bobby Bones]

It's probably fun to go and it's.

[Matt Castle]

In Vegas this year too.

[Bobby Bones]

Like other sports people. Probably other ex players.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, it's a blast. It's a blast. So it's, it's three days. It's like truly the kickoff to get going for college football. And then it starts at the end of the into August is last week. August is our first game.

[Bobby Bones]

Pass along. Hello. I got two, two bros coaching.

[Matt Castle]

Who you got?

[Bobby Bones]

Barry Odom at Purdue.

[Matt Castle]

Barry Odom.

[Bobby Bones]

That's my dude.

[Matt Castle]

New coach.

[Bobby Bones]

He was just here a few weeks ago.

[Matt Castle]

I'm excited.

[Bobby Bones]

Daughter to meet Lainey Wilson.

[Matt Castle]

I remember you saying that.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, he's, he's the best. And then Brett Bielema.

[Matt Castle]

Bielema.

[Bobby Bones]

Those are my dudes.

[Matt Castle]

He's a stud. Yes, we talked about him last week.

[Bobby Bones]

Send my warm regards. Okay, that's it. Thank you guys. We will see you next week. That's Matt Castle. That's Kickoff Kevin. That is Brandon Ray doing all the video thanks to Jeff Perlman. Be sure if you like the idea of his Tupac book or any of his other books. He is such a great writer. Check him out and go to jeffperelman.com or just go to his social and.

[Mina Kimes]

You'Ll see it all there.

[Matt Castle]

I'm Bobby Bones.

[Bobby Bones]

We've had lots to say. See you guys. Lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brandon Ray]

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[Greg Rosenthal]

Who are the 25 greatest football players to grace the gridiron since the year 2000? Introducing NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. Join me, Greg Rosenthal and an all star cast of media personalities including Mina Kimes, Steve Wych, Kevin Harlan and more for a look at football's best since the turn of the century. Listen to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years, starting on June 30 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bobby Bones]

This is an iHeart podcast.