TAKE THIS PERSONALLY - Understanding the Enneagram Beyond the Stereotypes

Summary

---

The Bobby Bones Show

Episode: TAKE THIS PERSONALLY - Understanding the Enneagram Beyond the Stereotypes

Date: May 23, 2026
Host: Morgan Huelsman
Guest: Melissa Kircher, Certified Enneagram and Life Coach

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the Enneagram personality system beyond simplistic labels—dispelling stereotypes and delving into its complexity as a tool for self-awareness, healing, and growth. Host Morgan Huelsman and guest Melissa Kircher cover the nine Enneagram types, explain common misconceptions, and offer real-life applications for listeners seeking deeper personal insight.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What is the Enneagram?

[03:33–05:12]

• The Enneagram is a personality system with nine types, each representing distinct thought, feeling, and behavior patterns developed throughout life.
• It’s not about putting you in a box; instead, “it shows you the box you’re already in and then how to get out of it.” (Melissa Kircher, 03:51)
• The framework makes space for “nature and nurture”—core fears and motivations drive type behavior, but learning your type offers “more expansive options…You’re not your type. You’re you.” (Melissa Kircher, 04:55)

2. Quick Breakdown of the Nine Types

[05:51–23:35] Melissa provides a nuanced, positive snapshot of each type, emphasizing depth and avoiding stereotypes.

- Type 1: Order-focused, fears being bad. Responsible, improvement-oriented, struggle with inner criticism.

- Type 2: Relationship-centered, fears being unlovable. Gives to others, sometimes neglects self.

- Type 3: Achievement-driven, fears lack of value. Charismatic, goal-oriented, avoids failure.

- Type 4: Seeks identity, fears being fundamentally missing or broken. Embraces emotional range, values authenticity.

- Type 5: Knowledge-seeking, fears overwhelm/incapacity. Independent, rational, sometimes emotionally withdrawn.

- Type 6: Security-seeking, fears inability to handle life alone. Worries, plans, deeply loyal, can be skeptical.

- Type 7: Joy/potential-focused, fears deprivation/pain. Seeks stimulation, positivity, has hidden depth and intellect.

- Type 8: Powerful/protective, fears being controlled/harmed. Justice-minded, passionate, misunderstood as simply “angry” but have a “squishy heart.” (Melissa Kircher, 20:36)

- Type 9: Harmony-seeking, fears loss/separation. Merges with others, avoids conflict, excellent mediators.

Quote:
“Ones have [the inner critic] in the extreme…a gut sense of right or wrong, good or bad, appropriate, inappropriate, and they act accordingly, trying to assuage that fear of what if I am bad?...But there's lots of gifts in each type.”
—Melissa Kircher, 05:51

Memorable Moment:
Morgan recognizes her fiancé as a possible Type 4, highlighting the personal relevance of the types. (10:57)

---

3. Nuance, Growth, and Complexity

[08:36–09:27]

• “Just because you’re not every part of a description, it could still be your type.” (Morgan Huelsman, 08:36)
• Types have both positive and negative traits. Growth comes from embracing both.

---

4. Stress, Security & Movement Between Types

[28:32–34:56, 55:05–60:14]

• Tests can be misleading; personal experience and life context affect results.
• “An 8 in health or security moves and takes on the characteristics of a two...When twos are stressed out, they move to the lower side of eight's qualities.” (Melissa Kircher, 29:34)
• Trauma can affect which traits you show; “trauma and traumatic things trump type every time.” (Melissa Kircher, 32:08)
• Core types are clarified by where you go in stress and security; the lines/arrows on the Enneagram symbol show these relations.
  • “An eight always goes to five in stress and two in health.” (Melissa Kircher, 59:28)
• “Stress number is really important...you can use your stress number with awareness to help you move out of stress.” (Melissa Kircher, 58:36)

---

5. When & Why to Use the Enneagram

[35:45–39:39]

• Best approached in mid-20s or later, after patterns emerge. Young people are still forming identity; “I don’t want to label people who are becoming before they’ve become.” (Melissa Kircher, 36:53)
• Most powerful when you stumble on it and it resonates, or if you’re feeling stuck.
• Not a thing to “force” on others; must resonate personally.

---

6. Self-Compassion & Real Transformation

[39:58–50:27]

• Enneagram + self-compassion leads to meaningful change, not shame.
• Use type awareness for “awareness, acceptance, action.”
  “We want to grow from a place of love, not a place of, ‘Oh, I’m so bad and I’ve failed so much.’” (Melissa Kircher, 47:25)

---

7. Misconceptions & Stereotypes

[53:01–54:40]

• Main myths: Enneagram only stereotypes or boxes people in.
  • “It is a tool for transformation and healing and growth and is not meant to label somebody or label yourself...” (Melissa Kircher, 53:56)
• Subtypes, wings, triads, and stress lines add needed nuance.

---

8. Wings, Triads, Stances, and Subcategories

[55:05–65:11]

• Wings: Flavors from the number on either side of your type.
• Triads/Centers: Heart (2/3/4), Head (5/6/7), Body (8/9/1).
• Stances:
  • Assertive (3, 7, 8): Moves into the world, future-oriented, goal-oriented.
  • Responsive (2, 6, 1): Moves with others, relational.
  • Withdrawn (4, 5, 9): Retreats for balance, inner restoration.

Quote:
“And what I think is really interesting about [stances]...it can also really be awesome with all of the little ways that we irritate and annoy each other—to understand...we’re just two different energy stances being in the world in a different way.”
—Melissa Kircher, 64:17

---

9. Personal Stories & Applications

[27:13–34:56, 46:10–52:26]

• Morgan’s experience scoring equally “8” and “2” during a trauma period sparks a discussion of how life circumstances affect type expression.
• The Enneagram’s greatest value is self-awareness, leading to better communication and relationships.

Quote:
“All of your answers come from you...the space between us is a place where we create enough safety and love and connection for those answers to emerge.”
—Melissa Kircher, 49:31

---

10. Final Reflections & Advice

[61:33–65:44]

• Melissa shares about “stances,” encouraging listeners to have curiosity about differences and use the Enneagram for more loving, less heated interactions.
• “If we all understood ourselves just a little better, we might do a little better out in the world.” (Morgan Huelsman, 65:11)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are not your type. You're you. So if you’re you, then what more expansive things can you choose?” (Melissa Kircher, 04:55)
• “Trauma...trumps type every time. If you’ve had a traumatic thing in your life, I would suggest don’t take a personality test of any kind.” (Melissa Kircher, 32:08)
• "We want to grow. But we want to grow from a place of love, not a place of, 'Oh, I'm so bad and I failed so much.'" (Melissa Kircher, 47:25)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|-------------| | Introduction to Enneagram | 03:33–05:12 | | 9 Types Snapshot | 05:51–23:35 | | Wings, Stress, and Security | 55:05–60:14 | | Dealing with “double” results | 27:13–34:56 | | When to take/test with Enneagram | 35:45–39:39 | | Stereotypes & Misconceptions | 53:01–54:40 | | Stances: Another Layer of Understanding| 62:18–65:11 | | Final Reflections and Wrap-up | 61:33–65:44 |

---

Conclusion

Morgan and Melissa present the Enneagram as a nuanced path to self-growth, not a box to stay in. It thrives on self-compassion, contextual nuance, and dialogue with others to support real, sustainable transformation. This episode provides both a primer and a heartfelt discussion for anyone curious about the Enneagram, seeking to move beyond stereotypes for true personal insight.

---

For more from Melissa Kircher:
Instagram: @EnneagramPaths
Website: enneagrampaths.com
Book forthcoming in 2027

---

Transcript

[Morgan Huelsman]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

Guaranteed Human health insurance shouldn't get in the way of getting care. Just the opposite. It should make getting care easier. That's exactly what the employees at UnitedHealthcare

[Morgan Huelsman]

work to do every day.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

Think about it. UnitedHealthcare employees need the healthcare system just like we do. They're real people who want real connection. When it matters most, they get it. And it's why they support people with genuine care and are helping make healthcare simpler. Learn more about how UnitedHealthcare is committed to [e-mail] Care

[Lowe's Announcer]

Pool Days call for cookouts and lots of laundry this Memorial Day at Lowe's. Save $80 on a Char Broil Performance Series 4 burner gas grill, now just $199 plus get up to 45% off. Select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes and food fresh. Having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 527, while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details. What's up y'? All? Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out, Little memories sneak up on you. And sometimes it's just about what's in your hand. That color, that chill. The new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks. Guava and Passion Fruit flavors with Mango Pineapple Flavored Pearl. Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best part of the day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Do you want to find a stress free way to buy your next car? Start at CarMax and shop your way. If you want to browse with confidence, get pre qualified online with no impact on your credit score and shop cars within your budget. From luxury cars to family rides, CarMax has options for almost every price range, including more than 25,000 cars priced under $25,000. So hey, want to get started? Just head to CarMax.com for details and get pre qualified today. Want to drive Carma?

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

Take this Personally With Morgan Huelsman, the Communication Series continues.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Whether you're obsessed with the Enneagram or

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

just want to understand yourself on a

[Morgan Huelsman]

deeper level, this is the episode for you.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

We're talking all about the Enneagram and why so many people find it life changing.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So let's do this. Certified Enneagram and life coach Melissa Kircher joins me this week. Specializes in deep Enneagram work, reparenting career development, all the things about our personality that intervolve and intertwine with our life. So, Melissa, thank you for joining me this week.

[Melissa Kircher]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I'm excited to talk all about Enneagrams because I love this. And I'm not gonna start on my hot button topic, because we will get there.

[Melissa Kircher]

Ooh, I'm excited.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes. Which will be fun, I think, for you.

[Melissa Kircher]

Okay.

[Morgan Huelsman]

But talk to me about the Enneagram, because surprisingly, there's still a whole lot of people out there in the world that don't quite know the Enneagram or who have never taken it, who've not dove into the world of Enneagram. So talk to me about what the Enneagram is and why it's so important for us to understand it.

[Melissa Kircher]

Sure. It is a tool. So it is, I think, a really important tool, but it's not better or worse than anything else. I personally love it because I find that it goes deeper than just putting you in a box. It shows you the box that you're already in and then how to get out of it. So in the Enneagram system of personality, there are nine different types, and they're all in a circle and in this little symbol. And each type represents a pattern of thought, feeling, and behavior. That kind of nature and nurture work together over time from when you're young to for the rest of your life to have a patterned way of surviving in the world. So then when you learn your Enneagram type, you learn and see, it's sometimes fun and sometimes a little uncomfortable, but it's all about seeing, oh, these are my patterns. But why, like, why do I have these patterns? What is the motivation for doing what I'm doing, thinking what I'm thinking and feeling what I'm feeling. And then now that I have that knowledge, what can I do to. To have more expansive options? So to not be let type be the only thing that dictates your life? You are not your type. You're you. So if you're you, then what more expansive things can you choose?

[Morgan Huelsman]

I love that perspective. And speaking of the nine complete ones, can you give us a quick breakdown snapshot of each? So as we're talking about these different ones, people aren't like, what is that?

[Melissa Kircher]

What does that Mean, yeah, I can, but I want to caveat it with it's so hard because they're so complex and there's so much nuance and layers. If you think you might be one, I would say do a deep dive and research Google about it. Look on some sites because I'll go quick and it's not going to get the full picture.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And if you do go online, they have like full analysis of each type. So this is just a quick to. To make sure everybody knows what we're speaking about here.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yes, exactly. Okay, so there's type one. I'm going to just start one through nine, even though nine is at the top and then it goes around the circle. Ones are, and I don't like to use words because they use like the perfectionist. But then a lot of ones are like, I'm not into perfection, I'm improving. So one's inner kind of fear thought pattern is I'm worried about being bad, I want to be good. And so a lot of their thoughts and actions and feelings come out of wanting to create order, out of chaos, make sure that the world is structured well, that their lives are structured well, that they're doing the right thing. They deal with an inner critic or inner judgmental energy that we all have. But ones have it in the extreme where they have this gut sense of right or wrong, good or bad, appropriate, inappropriate, and they act accordingly, trying to assuage that fear of what if I am bad? And they're usually really great people and have nothing to worry about. But that's the type. What the type says for the ones, they're very dutiful, responsible, but they can also be warm and friendly. And there's not everything in type is negative. There's lots of them qualities in that. So they're, they can be funny, have a great sense of humor. So that's a little bit of the one. The twos are heart people who the fear is being unwanted and unlovable just as they are. And so they work really hard to ingratiate themselves with others. They have a radar for other people's needs and desires and wants and work to meet that, sometimes by giving, sometimes by being like a really important person in other people's lives so having significance in others lives. Their focus is very much external, relational, emotional. They're lovely to be around. And then they also have to kind of work to know themselves a little bit because if they're always focusing on others, they kind of got to find that inside love for themselves. Threes are the People who fear not having worth or value innately. And so they assuage that fear by working to succeed. They want to look good, be a success, achieve high value and goals. They work really hard, they're doers, they're out in the world getting everything done, but with the goal of being successful. Failure, they don't like. They're very charming, charismatic people, very magnetic, often found in leadership positions. You would think if you want success, that's going to be a leader. They're also very kind and caring as well. They're hurt people as well.

[Morgan Huelsman]

4. All of these, by the way, that you are sharing the really beautiful sides of them and the complexities of them. Even though you are doing a snapshot, because it is very easy. If you just look on the Enneagram online and this quick you're like, that's not fully me. Because just because you're not one piece doesn't mean you might still fit it. It's kind of like very complex. Just as you are as a person, so is your personality. So I. That you're sharing these kind of different snapshots of what each type technically is.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And for all of the things that one could look at and see, oh, this is my type response and I want to grow. There's a million talents and gifts hidden within that type as well. So it's really important to have the positive and the negative go together because we're a whole being.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Exactly. So please continue. I wanted to point that out as you were doing it.

[Melissa Kircher]

Sure. So the fours, they are working with a fear of something within missing or not being or sometimes being broken. So they're on an endless quest to find their real, true, authentic identity. And that looks like searching for meaning and beauty in the moment. It looks for investigating darkness and pain. It can look like fours are very emotional people and experience the full emotional spectrum. So they're going into absolutely every feeling, trying to absorb what this might say about them. If they're feeling that way. They have big ups, big downs, and tend to have sort of a push pull dynamic in relationships because they're looking at others and going, well, how does that reflect on me? Is there something missing in me that person has? Cause they kind of see everybody else as having their identity. But why can't I find that identity that fits? Really being seen and understood is very important to fours as it is to all of us. They bring that to the world. They can also be amazing at taking their inner world and making it a reality, be very Successful in implementing their cool imaginations and ideas. They search for authenticity, and they also bring authenticity to relationship spaces. They're amazing at creating places where people feel safe and welcomed to be exactly who they are.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I just heard a wing of my fiance there in that time. Potentially very strong portion of his. He's. I. I keep trying to encourage him to take it. He keeps forgetting, but I want him to take it. And you just sitting there, describe that. It's like, oh, that sounds a lot like my feelings.

[Melissa Kircher]

Flavor might be there. Yeah, for sure. Very neat. Just a wing or his maybe core type. Do you know his core type?

[Morgan Huelsman]

We don't know his core type. So he's getting a. He has a test, a link to a test that he needs to sit down and take. I was like, but you need to be in the right head space to do it. You need to sit there and be able to think through the whole process instead of just quickly taking something online. It's a really intentional thing. So. Yeah, yeah, we have had the time for that quite yet, but very much so. It could be a core, but I definitely see a wing, if not a core.

[Melissa Kircher]

You see some flavor there? Something. Yeah. Okay. Next are the fives, which I am a five. So that we're describing little me. We have a fear of being overwhelmed or incapable, and so what we do. The world feels that way. I used to joke that I would walk outside and be overwhelmed by watering my plants and be like, why do I have so many plants? And you can see the plans behind me. The world feels overwhelming, and the world feels like it demands of us, and it feels like people demands of Fives. And so fives respond and try to handle that by being very independent, by meeting their own needs. Gathering knowledge and information is really important to Fives in order to feel like they have enough knowledge and competence to then do what is needed to be done, either for others, for their jobs, for their family members, for their own life, or even to just keep themselves safe. It is a lot about knowledge. They're very up in their head, don't tend to compartmentalize feelings and need to kind of get into the body. And yet they also bring such rationality and logic to the world. It's a real gift to have a five in a kind of tumultuous situation with you because not only are they calm, they really want to understand what's actually going on. And they're very. Can be very new, neutral in that kind of understanding. So there really can be a safe space for lots of different Opinions and keeping it copacetic, but in a way that is inviting real true knowledge, logic, reason and understanding.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So that makes sense why you are a life coach and you like to help people. That tracks.

[Melissa Kircher]

Honestly, I'm an artist and a writer first and stumbled onto the life coaching and then when I did, I was like, oh, I have been a life coach all day long and I didn't realize it. I was like, oh, I've been doing this with my friends and family the whole dang time. So, yeah, it was a fun surprise.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Oh, I love that. The true calling. Just happenstance by way of the enneagram.

[Melissa Kircher]

Totally.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I think it's really cool.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. Yeah, it was a cool. Yeah, Happenstance that was not planned for love.

[Morgan Huelsman]

That.

[Melissa Kircher]

Okay. Sixes, they have a fear of not being able to handle life on their own. They want security and assurance and safety. And so how they try to get that is through thinking, assessing, planning, predicting, worrying. It is a lot of head energy trying to assess what's happening in the moment to be prepared for the future. They're the ones on the enneagram that move and fluctuate. They call it a phobic 6 or counterphobic 6. Sixes that are more aware of their fear are phobic sixes. Sixes that are more like, no, I don't have fear. I'm gonna go towards that thing that's dangerous. Those would be the counterphobic sixes. And I tend to find that one's not one or the other. They tend to just move along the spectrum depending on the day, month, or year or era of your life. They have lost touch with their inner authority. And so they try to find authority in authority figures while also distrusting authority figures. They try to find assurance and reassurance in relationships and other people, even though they tend to be wary and distrusting of other people. It's a hard in and out, very warm and friendly, but also I'm watching you sort of vibes. They are, though, so loyal, so loving. They make sure we're doing all the jobs that we're supposed to do. They care about everybody's safety and well being. They are team players. They're wonderful souls to have around you. So that is the good part of the six.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I have a six who is a really good friend of mine and we always say that she'll tap into her worst case scenario girly, because she comes out in full force when she is unsure of a situation and she's like, this is the worst that could happen from this. And then you have Us on the other side who's like, this is the best that could happen from this. And it's a typical conversation that we have.

[Melissa Kircher]

What is your type? You haven't told me yet.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah, that's part of the hot topic that we're gonna get into. That's why I wanted you to list

[Melissa Kircher]

them all, because I got a little hint from what you just said, so I'm in. I'm. Okay. Maybe I have a guess.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay, I want to hear your guess too, before you tell me.

[Melissa Kircher]

Do you want now?

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. What's your guess?

[Melissa Kircher]

From what you just said, Sevens are in the best case scenario. Usually they're like, hey, what could happen in the best possible way?

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay, I'll tell you. I'm not a Seven.

[Melissa Kircher]

Not a seven. Okay. Interesting, interesting, interesting. Let's go on. Can we go to Sevens next?

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. Let's talk about the Sevens, though.

[Melissa Kircher]

The Sevens are the happy people of the Enneagram, but that doesn't mean that they're shallow. They're very deep and very intellectual and smart. They have a fear of being deprived or depleted or trapped in pain. And so what their type does then is try to make sure that never happens by being fast, moving, moving, having lots of ideas about the next fun or cool or interesting thing to do. They like things to be happy and light and positive. I have a Seven friend who's like, I didn't want to tell you how I felt because that would bring down the vibes. It's okay. It's okay to bring down the vibes, babe. Be honest. They are magnetic people. They're also extremely able to enter into pain of other people. They just don't want to stay there for very long. So it's not that they're not capable of pain. It's just they don't want to be. Be stuck in it. They're extremely able to be structured and oriented when they want to. It just. It has to be something that they want. And there also has to be a route out if it starts to not feel good, which sometimes they get a bad rap for. And sure, in lower levels, it can be like, oh, somebody's always moving on to the next thing. But in more healthy levels, it really teaches us that pay attention to your own inner knowing and, like, how the energy is flowing and what the vibe is. And it's okay to say no and move on to the next thing if you're meant to move. Right?

[Morgan Huelsman]

So they.

[Melissa Kircher]

I think they really teach us movement a lot. And that's what I really love about Them, in addition to the fact that they're like the sunny, happy people of the Enneagram, they do have depth and they're very, very intelligent.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes, I love that. And it is funny that you did guess a 7, because based on your description alone, the one of my best friends, she loves to call me human sunsh. And so it is funny. That is a characteristic of that. And that's the one that you guessed. A funny little connection, but it sure isn't.

[Melissa Kircher]

All right, now I'm intrigued. Yeah, now I have to get through the other two just to hear your answer. Because I'm a five. You opened a tab in my little five brain and it's running.

[Morgan Huelsman]

We got lots to dive down in this. This is. We're just getting into the basics right here.

[Melissa Kircher]

Cool, cool, cool. So the Eights are the strong, powerful presence of the Enneagram. They fe being controlled, violated or betrayed in any way, or harmed. And so they counteract that with being armored, protected, forceful in control, strong, passionate. You feel their energy when they move into a room. They're not afraid. They're the protectors of the Enneagram. So not only do they protect themselves, they really have a radar for the weak and the vulnerable and make sure that those people are also being taken care of. They're very justice minded and oriented. Like one ones as well. Ones are very justice oriented and force, actually, we all are. But they're ones that. That's a really big important thing. They are known stereotypically for anger. And they do present with a lot of anger. But they will tell you that actually that's misunderstood. They're like, yeah, I am. Duh. But also 50% of that is misunderstood as passion. I'm just passionate and I'm telling it like it is. So it's really important for people to be honest with them. They bring a lot of empowerment to others, right? So they're all about empowering themselves, but also empowering other people. They want other people to step into their own and be able to stand their ground. And they have the most tender, squishy hearts you will ever, ever find in a people. They are just like squishy teddy bears and so soft and so loving. And when they let their guard down with you, it's a really special thing because they would hate it. They'd be so mad right now.

[Morgan Huelsman]

But they're so sweet, but so funny. I've never. So in. In all of my research and doing a lot of these, I don't know that I've ever heard that description that last part of the eight of having the big heart side, I know a lot of eights who do. That's a big side to them. But it's funny because it's not in a lot of the text, if you will, about the enneagram 8. It's really more about the. The hardenedness that they have and the empowerment side. But yeah, that squishy heart you talk about, we don't read a lot about it.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah, I think it's happening more and more in Texas. People are finding out and making sure to say that because maybe like with fives, we don't give off a lot of things, so have to dig a little to find out. With eights, you have to dig a little to find the tender heart that's there. So.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Well, I'm glad it's becoming more in text.

[Melissa Kircher]

That's cool. Yeah, me too, because they deserve us to know how sweet they are. Okay. Lastly, nines. Their fear is of loss and separation and annihilation. So not having a sense of self if they lose connection with important people in their lives. So what they tend to do is make sure they're in harmony or unity or peace with themselves and with others and they merge and go along with other people in order to maintain connections that feel good or that they feel are life giving or necessary. They take their fire and passion, which does exist, dampen it down and go asleep to that and who they are for a little while. But it doesn't stay that way forever. Nines have times where that kind of wakes up and they're not as flowy and easygoing and sometimes that's like a volcanic eruption and sometimes it's, oh, no, I matter and this is the right thing and I'm important in life. So they're very warm, very friendly people. They tend to have trouble with prioritizing things because everything feels equally important. But then when they get in down into themselves and wake up a little bit, then they're actually like, oh, wait, this is what's important. This is what I need to do. When you do the inner work, you find all these cool qualities and they have the ability to be amazing mediators. That's why they're at the top. Because nines often see themselves in all the other nine, all the other eight types, because they can truly understand, whereas fives seek to understand. Right. And can make neutral space. Nines actually innately understand all the other types and where everybody's coming from, which makes them excellent mediators. Right. If there's a problem when they can go in with peacemaking, there's peacekeeping, which is what they tend to do. Keep the peace, keep it harmony. But when they go in with peacemaking, they can really help people who are at odds find connection and come together in ways that others, some of us just have no talent in doing so. They're amazing, cool people.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. And very important to the whole spectrum to help everybody get through theirs.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yes.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Now that we have learned, everybody, if you've never heard of the Enneagram, you got a crash course in all of these different types.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

Health insurance should make getting care easier, but sometimes it can feel like the opposite. That's why UnitedHealthcare is committed to putting care at the heart of health insurance insurance with empathy, transparency, and real human connection. I mean, doesn't care feel different when it's personal? When you can tell that the person on the other end of the phone, the screen, and the Service genuinely cares? UnitedHealthcare is working to make that happen every day. They're also helping people make healthcare decisions with confidence, giving them the information that they need to better understand their benefits, costs, and claims. Because UnitedHealthcare knows when you understand that stuff, you can better get the care you and your family need.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Need.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

UnitedHealthcare is also working to make care more accessible. They're doing it by helping connect people with more top doctors, clinics, specialists, and such right in their own communities. It makes getting care easier and feels way more personal. You know, care can show up in a lot of ways, and everyone at UnitedHealthcare is committed to bringing it every day. Learn more about how UnitedHealthcare is committed to [e-mail] care

[Malcolm Glebel]

hello? Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pallard]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

[Stefano Pallard]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community, and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which. Which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two today.

[Stefano Pallard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology, and digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com Ferrari

[Morgan Huelsman]

this

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Research shows that happiness is all about social connection, and oftentimes that social connection involves great food. I love hosting my friends for brunch or dinner and sharing some of my favorite dishes with the people I care about. And that's why I choose Dietz and Watson. Dietz Watson has been handcrafting premium meats and artisan cheeses for over 85 years. Dietz and Watson is family owned and operated. They never cut corners. Ever. They do things the right way, even

[Melissa Kircher]

if it's the hard way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Plus, Dietz and Watson is transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't, and that quality translates into great taste. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the Dietz difference.

[Lowe's Announcer]

It never happens at a good time. The pipe bursts at midnight. The heater quits on the coldest night. Suddenly you're overwhelmed. That's when Home Serve is here for 4.99amonth. You're never alone loan just call their 24.7hotline and a local pro is on the way. Trusted by millions, HomeServe delivers peace of mind when you need it most. For plans Starting at just 4.99amonth, go to homeserve.com that's homeserve.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between 4.99 to $11.99 a month. Your first year terms apply on covered repairs now.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Melissa this is where the hot topic comes in.

[Melissa Kircher]

All right, I'm unprepared, but let's go.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So when I took the Enneagram test, I was actually going through a very deep therapy experience after getting out of an abusive relationship. So I do think my test was a thank you. But I I think my test might have been a little skewed because I know it's not possible to be two core ones, but I was 49%, 49.5% of an 8 and 9.5% of a 2 mm. So my test was both. And it did not not really lean into any wings as much. It was really more those two were very foundational for me. So I've tried to, as I've gotten older, learn when I learned that it's not possible to have two core types really look into that and understand that. But I'm still sitting here where I'm like, I it is a very known quality Trait of everybody who knows me, that I almost have two sides to me. Depending on a situation. One can come out if she needs to and the other will come out if she needs to. So walk me through somebody getting a test like that. Since I do know, I'm well aware that it's not technically possible, but it is what my test said. So that I give you the full context to totally go into this.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So most Enneagram teachers will say that the tests skew, right? So what we say is don't pay too much attention to tests. You really need to read a lot about it and kind of take the information in and then sit with it and live at certain types to really know. It has to resonate. People do typing sessions, I always say, because I do typing sessions. But I usually give people two types, two or three, and say try it out, live as one and see what feels right. And I'll say, here's what seems the most likely. Unless somebody is full on, you can't be hardly anything else. But I really try to let people have their own agency to say this was what feels true in me. So I'm going to ask you that in a minute. But I will say why a 2 and an 8 might show up. They're linked on the Enneagram, so meaning they have a line of stress and security to each other.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Interesting.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. So the 8 in health or security moves and takes on the characteristics of a two. So it's like an eight and a two merge and you have this security move of like when you're healthy, when you're in flow, when everything's going as it should and it is a naturally arising thing. Eights tend to take on two qualities. When twos are stressed out and things aren't going so hot, they move to the lower side of eight's qualities. So this is what it would look like. A very warm, loving, generous, kind, others focused too, who is in not a great place and is stressed out would start to exhibit the lower side traits of an 8, which would be things like exploding in anger, becoming very demanding, saying I'm the one that matters, you don't matter, I'm right, you're wrong. Being very self absorbed kind of a thing and feel entitled to that. Feel like I have given to everyone else and you for so long. I am entitled to act this way. And that is the stressful move. An 8 that is in healthy flow moving to a 2. That desire to be in control would lessen and soften and they would be more in touch with their feelings, more able to be vulnerable with safe people. The ability to give altruistically when it is theirs to do or give meaning. They're not. Not imperiously imposing their giving onto other people, which is what eight, you need to be protected. I'll protect you. And eight, moving to two is like, I'm gonna ask consent here. Would you like my help? Do you need me to do something for you? And it's coming from a place of love, but also consent. So my question to you would be, which one? Do either of those resonate for you?

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. And it's funny because the reason I even. I still talk about it, even though I know that it's possible it's not. But. But I think this particular personality assessment is so influenced by the things that are happening in our lives. So that's why I give you the context of it. Right. I do feel like based on things that we're going through, especially if you are a person who has had to be in fight or flight for some reason, you may have things act out that aren't as your normal personality trait. So I did feel like context was super important when I originally took that text.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. Trauma and traumatic things Trump type every time. So if you've had a traumatic thing in your life, I would suggest don't take a personality test of any kind because the trauma response, what's happening in your nervous system, transcends personality and any kind of tool that exists. Because our bodies are. If it's fight or flight, it's fight or flight. It doesn't really matter what your personality is. Okay.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And that's what I was so curious about because it helped me understand a lot about myself, at least to understand how I was in that position. And it did offer a lot of support for me while also being in a lot of therapy. So it was a balance. But it was just interesting that those were the two things that came out of that situation. And so listening to you talk about them now, I. Especially now, being in the relationship that I am, I'm about to get married, I'm definitely in a safe environment.

[Melissa Kircher]

Congrats. Thank you.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Thank you. It is absolutely more of a two now. The. The eight does still tend to come out pretty strong in me. When the justice side and the empowerment side are very real for me, they are very strong. So I'm not sure if that's a, like, if you can be a two wing eight or if that's a potential, like, correlation in there, but those. That personality side is almost Just as strong as the two in me. If I'm in a situation that calls for it.

[Melissa Kircher]

Anyone can be justice minded. I'm a five and I can be fiery and passionate about justice and equality and things. Things going well for everyone. So it's not really something that is specific to one type. It's the why and what's going on inside of you that's coming out. Right. And also on a caveat, there is a theory. It's called the tri type theory. I don't tend to find it helpful, but a lot of people do. It's a tool and there's no right or wrong. The tri type theory suggests that somebody could have a core type in each of the centers of intelligence. So there's the body, head and heart. 8, 9, 1 are body, 2, 3, 4 are heart and 5, 6, 7 are head. So some people pick a core type in the head, heart and body. So they'll have three core numbers. And that really works for some people. I tend to find that it doesn't that for me. And like the people I work with, we don't tend to be able to do a lot of work with that. But that's just me. So if you could investigate that, you could look up tri type and be like, hey, because a two is heart and an eight is body. So you just could find a head and then you could be at peace.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So currently I have a body and a heart. I like it. I like where this is going. Yeah. And if it works for you, it

[Melissa Kircher]

works like I'm all about take what resonates and leave what doesn't because it's fine.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And that's why I wanted to talk to you about it because I don't know that I'm the only one in that. Right. I've seen a whole lot of forums and a lot of people talking about that. A feeling like they have two sides to them. And so that's where the enneagram comes in. And you really hope to lean one or the other. But that's also why I love to talk about nuance. And the nuance in this is also what you mentioned. Depending on your circumstance and what you're going through at the time could also have a huge impact on that experience. So I want to get into that a little bit more of that. So obviously learning the enneagram is so important, but when is it important to start doing and why is it helpful to us in certain ways?

[Melissa Kircher]

Okay. Controversial take, but not so. I don't know. There's a lot of Teachers, there's a lot. And people that are way above me and they all have opinions. So I just have to do what I've seen and experienced. Right. I think the when is is at least mid-20s to me. I'm not saying you can't learn about it before then. I'm not saying you can't type yourself before then or there's not work to do. But in trying to do work with younger people than mid-20s, you haven't had enough time to have all of these patterns emerge and see what they're doing. Because while they're all the good stuff, there is some negative stuff to it as well. And if you're young, you're becoming and you're seeing and you're knowing and don't want to label people who are becoming before they've become. I'm not out here telling my kids what type they are because I don't want them to feel like I'm giving them a label that they have to fit into. They're figuring out who they are. Then there's your teenage years where you're just experimenting. Then your younger twenties, you just. So I kind of think mid twenties is a great time time.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And I love that, by the way. That's just a controversial thing to me. I feel like that's so important because I'm 32 now. I look at my 20s. In my 20s, I was learning a lot of things. There was a lot of life happening. Yes. If you tried to put me into a category, then I may not have experienced a lot of things just for the sake of. That's not my personality type. I wouldn't do that. Instead of being more exploritative and trying to understand where I might fit in, I might force myself to fit in one place. And so I can see how that would be damaging too early.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. And that's the worry, is to not be a helpful tool, to be something that's damaging. We don't want that. So. And that's, again, it's just my personal opinion and other people have opinions that younger people should do use it, and that's totally fine. Again, whatever resonates and works. If you're a parent and you feel really strongly about it, explore it with your kids. I'm not here to say yay or nay. There's no moral thing. It's just listen to your gut. And then as far as the why of it, I think a lot of people tend one, you find it by accident. Somebody tells you about it and you're like, and it res. Either it resonates or doesn't resonate. So I don't think it should be forced. There are plenty of people. I have a client that I've been working with forever that love the Enneagram. Cause I do life coaching as well. Love the Enneagram. For everybody else, really helps to understand everybody. But they're like, I'm not gonna get typed. I'm like, okay, no big deal. So it has to resonate. It has to work for you. And people tend to either stumble upon it and really resonate and so like it and are interested. And then they realize all that all this inner work can be done or things aren't going so hot. And you're like, why? Why am I stuck? Why am I doing the same things? What's going on with me? I've tried everything. I'm in therapy. I'm in. And I'm trying all this stuff, and it comes across your awareness or something, and you go, oh, shit. You might read it and say something like that. Cause it peels back. I felt like my skin had been peeled off when I finally found out my type. And people could see all my messy little insides and go, shoot. It's really helpful to understand your motivations of what's going on and to figure out your childhood and to understand your inner child and to work on the parts of yourself. It's really a tool that can be combined with other tools for, I think, a high level of effectiveness in healing and transformation.

[Morgan Huelsman]

When I had experience learning the Enneagram, even at that time. And now I can obviously look back and see a different side to that. But when it happened, it was really formative for me and understanding the things that were happening to me of just why it might relate, how it might connect to different parts of my life and the story that I'd been telling myself.

[Melissa Kircher]

Right.

[Morgan Huelsman]

The things that I had convinced myself of. And that's why the Enneagram in general just holds a really special place for me. I think it can be a really big healing tool for people. I think that it can work in a way that allows you to heal and see yourself from a different perspective than you ever really thought possible. And I'm. I don't know if your clients experience that same feeling as well.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. I try to approach any kind of work with self, compassion, consent, love, kindness. Right. So we're not going into anything deeper without really trying to understand with a lot of gentleness what's happening here. Right. And when we see that, okay, let's Explore that of why. But let's go there with compassion and no shame and no judgment and no any of this. Of let's. I love that you said your story. It is about our stories, right? It's not just a type. The type helps you give a pathway to tell your story and do so with more understanding and gratefulness for what kept you safe for so long. These patterns, they did so much good for you. Let's thank them before we learn how to expand. And I think doing inner work in that way and having something, a tool like the Enneagram, that helps you get. That has complexity so that you can really get clear and you can. It's almost like a language that we can speak back and forth between each other that just goes, oh, oh. If I know somebody's a, I can speak to them in a way that they will resonate with and then we have a connection, right? Then we can go deeper rather than I just speak to them like I would as a 5 with my logical left brain kind of stuff. I meet people where they're at and that's, I think, a really great tool too for relationships and not only with ourself, but with others. It really brings more connection and understanding.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

Health insurance should make getting care easier, but sometimes it can feel like the opposite. That's why UnitedHealthcare is committed to putting care at the heart of health insurance, with empathy, transparency and real human connection. I mean, doesn't care feel different when it's personal? When you can tell that the person on the other end of the phone, the screen and the Service genuinely cares? UnitedHealthcare is working to make that happen every day. They're also helping people make healthcare decisions with confidence, giving them the information that they need to better understand their benefits, benefits, costs and claims. Because UnitedHealthcare knows when you understand that stuff, you can better get the care you and your family need. UnitedHealthcare is also working to make care more accessible. They're doing it by helping connect people with more top doctors, clinics, specialists and such right in their own communities. It makes getting care easier and feels way more personal. You know, care can show up in a lot of ways and everyone at UnitedHealthcare is committed to bringing it every day. Learn more about how UnitedHealthcare is committed to [e-mail] care

[Malcolm Glebel]

hello? Hello, this is Malcolm Glabel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pallard]

Your pronunciation is. It's strongly American. It's more scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging with the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Stefano Pallard]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. And I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Stefano Pallard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com Ferrari

[Morgan Huelsman]

this

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Research shows that happiness is all about social condition connection. And oftentimes that social connection involves great food. I love hosting my friends for brunch or dinner and sharing some of my favorite dishes with the people I care about. And that's why I choose Dietz and Watson. Dietz. Watson has been handcrafting premium meats and artisan cheeses for over 85 years. Dietz and Watson is family owned and operated. They never cut corners, ever. They do things the right way, even

[Melissa Kircher]

if it's the hard way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Plus, Dietz and Watson is transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't, and that quality translates into great taste. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the Dietz difference.

[Danielle Fishel]

This is Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong and Will Friedle from Pod Meets World. You know what I didn't expect? Becoming best friends with Chewy's customer service.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, been there. I've chatted with them as late as midnight. They actually get pet peeves.

[Danielle Fishel]

And if Pickles or Lucky hate something, I just send it back. 100% satisfaction guarantee. Gives you a whole year to make a return, no questions asked.

[Ryder Strong]

Meanwhile, I'm over here ordering everything for bill and brunch. Food, treats, beds, toys. Because Chewy has over 100,000 products to

[Danielle Fishel]

choose from and it shows up in like a day. I mean, my dog Sammy thinks the delivery driver is her personal assistant. And I'm not sure she's right.

[Melissa Kircher]

Wrong.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's not just for dogs and cats either. They've got stuff for birds, fish, reptiles. The list goes on and on.

[Ryder Strong]

And the health side is huge for me too. Prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth vet visits.

[Danielle Fishel]

They're even opening vet clinics now. My cat pretends he doesn't care, but he benefits.

[Ryder Strong]

Chewy just makes the whole pet parent thing easier for life with pets. The answer is chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chupanions.chewy.com Wallet World.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah, there's a level of self awareness that happens too, when you understand yourself to that extent. You speak about the great sides of it. And just as there are great, there's obviously the flaws that come with each one. We all have them. We're all human. That's part of the journey.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And when you learn your own flaws, like when something's kind of staring back at you, being like, this is what you're not so great at. Of course, there's an ego thing that happens there where you're like, whoa, don't tell me that. That was rude. But also this very big self awareness, if you allow it to happen, of just, this is who you are. And it's not bad, but it is something that you could work on if you chose to and something you can be aware of. When I learned about even being a challenger, I caught myself in a lot of conversations being a challenger, being the one who said, you can do this. I know you can do this. If you do X, Y and Z, you can make that happen. And. And I, understanding that side of who I might be allowed me to pull back and become a much better listener and not a challenger when it wasn't the place to be. And that really strengthened a lot of relationships for me because I could understand my own flaw in a moment as it was happening.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah, that's what awareness does. There's the three A's in life coaching, which is awareness, acceptance, action. And so if you're working with that, you're seeing and being aware, then you're accepting about yourself. Then you decide what you want to do with it. Right. And so the enneagram gives you really specific ways to get into all of the nooks and crannies of yourself, to make that happen in a myriad of different ways. But the acceptance part is really important because it gives you. I feel like acceptance gives you more of an ability to change in ways that are congruent and alignment, like with your core values and who you want to be as a person versus just like crapping on yourself. We don't need to do that. That's not what we're here to do. We're here to be nice to ourselves. Right. We want to grow. But we want to grow from a place of love, not a place of, oh, I'm so bad and I'm so terrible, and I failed so much. Like, sure, yeah, we all make mistakes. Mistakes. But let's get to the reason why that happened. Let's be kind, accept it, and then say, okay, what do I want to do now? So I like the example that you gave of that. I think that's really great.

[Morgan Huelsman]

It's almost a self policing thing that's happening. It's not somebody else doing it to you. Once you have the information, knowledge is everything. And like you talk about here is those three A's. But what's so important in that is that you are the one who's getting to make those choices. It gives you your own autonomy where you get to say, okay, this is what I know. This is what I can do about it, and I'm gonna do xyz. Instead of it being somebody suggesting because they understand you in a certain way, and then you're doing it because of somebody else. It's all you. The Enneagram is all you. It's all this self understanding, self awareness, self realization, and nobody can take that away from you. Which was also something that I found very powerful about the Enneagram. Is that something you've also experienced?

[Melissa Kircher]

Oh, yeah. I tell all my clients all the time, it's not about, yes, I need to be trained. Yes, I need to know my stuff. Yes, I need to do my job well. But you have all the answers already inside of you. The space between us is a place where we create enough safety and love and connection for those answers to emerge. And all of the aha moments are, like, really magical. It's not me imparting all of my wisdom on somebody else. It's us talking through things till they're like. And something spills out of your mouth. I'm like, did you catch that? Or a micro expression? What are you feeling? And then I'm like, do you realize what you just said? It was so amazing. And they're always like, wow, thanks, Melissa. I'm like, no, you. That arose from within. So not only is it giving you agency, it's also showing you your own power. And it is a tool that helps. Helps your power arise from within. All of your answers come from you.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Do you see a lot of. Yeah, yeah. And you just said it right there. So do you see a lot of your clients having those aha moments, Those realizations, and watching their lives morph into something that they've in A way have always wanted, but they couldn't reach it because they didn't have the information. I'm definitely assuming that is a part of the process that you experience with your clients. Clients, yeah.

[Melissa Kircher]

Magic happens when clients and I work together and different kind of energy flows, and it just happens organically, and something will just manifest, and I'll be like, whoa. We experienced that together. And like, whoa. And what I would say about transformation, I'm actually writing a book right now that's about transforming your life using the Enneagram, is that it is a true transformation, I have found, is chock full of aha moments. But then it's slow and steady and practical. You think of transformation and you want it to be this, like, whoop, and then everything in my life changed. Your life does change, and it does become more of what you want it to be. But it tends to be softer and quieter and more intentional than any of the types, except for maybe nines. Nines are usually fine with a slow and steady pace. But all the other types. When I went into Enneagram coaching, I was like, give me the homework. Let's get it done. Let's change it. And I've learned over time, it's just in small increments. And then people report back and they're like, whoa. Like, this is so different now. I'm experiencing myself differently. Or I can be alone with myself now and I never could before. So, yeah, it is really transformational. And you can change in the blink. There have been huge shifts for people in the blink of an eye and slow and steady. So I think it has to encompass the whole thing.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. And that speaks a lot to what you've been talking about this whole time, which is it's such an individual experience, and everybody's gonna have their own journey with it. So that tracks, for sure. Is there things that people misunderstand about the Enneagram? Is there things that people get wrong about the Enneagram? I imagine that there's. There's this other side of. Not like a conversation that we're having where there's an understanding of it, but just this lack of understanding or a lack of not knowing it in the right way. I assume that there's a side to this. And when it. As it comes with all personality assessments.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah. I think the easiest one is that it stereotypes people. And stereotypes exist for a reason. So are there stereotypes of each type? Yeah, but does each type have. We haven't talked about wings. We haven't talked about stress and security arrows. The Triads, the subtypes. There's a lot to it. And I do that it is complex, but it is understandable. There are other systems that are more complex that even I am like, I don't get it. So I like that it's complex, but that you can get it right so you can go deep, but you don't have to go to absolutely everything in order to really get rich stuff from it. The stereotypes are there because they're there, but also there's plenty of other. There's room for. I'll go with the fours because they always are like, you're not explaining it right. A4 can look like so many different things. It's not just the stereotypical explanation of A4. Right. There's room for it to be bigger and broader and wider. And then I think the other big thing is that it just. Just it's giving you a type. It's giving you a label, and you are that when in actuality it is a tool for transformation and healing and growth and is not meant to label somebody or label yourself and be like, this is the way I am. Excuse, excuse, excuse. And I can keep going. It's really meant for you to take a deep look at yourself again with compassion and love, no shame, but really look at things and go, no, no know, no excuses. Let's figure this out and let's live a bit better and expand and grow. So I think those are the two main ones.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah, yeah, those are great perspectives. I assumed, I knew there had to be something that. The negative side, if you will, but you mentioned those also subparts, the stressors, the triad, these kind of other categories that fall. Once you figure out which enneagram you fall under and you most identify with with. Talk to me about those kind of subcategories and how they help us really understand further.

[Melissa Kircher]

Okay, I will try to do so in a way that's not confusing your wings. So if you have your core number and it's on a circle, a wing, do me a little thing. It's like the number on either side of your core type.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay. And it can only be a number on either side. It can't be like another. How I was talking about, like an. I'm an 8 Wing 2. That's not possible.

[Melissa Kircher]

Nope. You can only have a number on either side of your core four type. So it's just. It doesn't change your type. It gives you. If you're like, I'm a 5 wing 4. And it's. If I'm a logical, reasonable head centered 5. But I'm also really into beauty and I love artistic expression. It's not that fives can't be that, but you could further explain that with a little flavor of four over here, right? It gives a little flavoring. It's a little sprinkle of oregano or something. It's just a spice. It doesn't change your core type. There's not a lot to do with the wings other than it just helps explain a little bit of your flavor of five or whatever your core number is.

[Morgan Huelsman]

You're more dynamic than just a one. You have a few more. Yeah, sprinkles, cherries, you know, that are part of the party.

[Melissa Kircher]

Some people have both wings and some people have one. And some people are like, no, I don't resonate with either of them. And I say to each their own. Whatever happens helps you feel like expresses yourself best. Okay, Stress and security. These are really important. These are big. These help you figure out your main type. I think they're one of the most key things to help you figure out your core type where you go in stress. So if I don't have it, I want to draw it and hold a little picture. If you look, all the numbers are in this hexad. They're all connected. And so each number has. Has a line that moves out from the main type. They're called arrows or lines. It's where the dynamic nature of the system comes into play. Because we're not just a static person. We ebb and move and flow and change day by day, hour by hour, sometimes for years. You can be in a state of stress in a moment, in a day, for a very long time. There is a part of the enneagram that describes where your type generally goes in stress. That's your stress arrow or stress number, and that's connected through that line there. When you're in flow and things are in alignment, you spontaneously move into this other state that is described by your security or health arrow or line. And that is the line that connects you to another number. The health arrow uses the high side traits like, so the best traits of this other number. The stress arrow uses the low side. So the worst traits of the stress number. I'm trying to not be too confusing in stress. When you're in your stress and you notice it and you're like, oh, like me, I'm a five. So I go to seven in stress and I notice that like all these seven traits are coming up for me. I'm very frantic and I'm Moving fast and my mind is having lots of ideas and I want to do it all now and thinking too much and I'm going, going, going. I'm like, oh wait, what's going on? You can use your stress number with awareness to help you move out of stress is a really important thing. So it doesn't just describe it. You can actually use it as transformation to know that you're in stress. Go, how did I get here? What's going on? And then how can I take the high side of whatever number that is? So for me, seven, how can I do something intentionally fun fun to relieve my stress? How can I find the light heartedness in this situation to relieve me of stress? So our stress number is really important for us.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And our stress number and our. What did you say? The other side of our security.

[Melissa Kircher]

Stress and security. There's lots of different words that people use. I use stress and security.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So our stress and security numbers can be any on the enneagram regardless of our corners number.

[Melissa Kircher]

No. So that's why if you have to look at the symbol, you'll see on the symbol there are arrows. There are the ones that are connected you to the lines on the symbol.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Got it. Okay. So that's why you say it helps.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yes. An eight always goes to five in stress and two in health. A two always goes to eight in stress and four in health. Right. And if you look on the symbol you will see, oh, that's they always connect to those. Like a three will always go to nine in stress and six in health. And then a six will go to nine in health and three in stress. So it's they're all connected on the symbol. And when you look at the symbol you can easily see where you connect to.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Which is why you said it helps to understand your core number better. Which I don't think I ever looked into my stress insecurity side. So that could start to help me really narrow down what I'm looking at. Because that feels like a big piece to the puzzle.

[Melissa Kircher]

It's a really, really big piece. And when people are stuck on a type and a type description, I always say great, stick with that type. But then look at the stress insecurity and see in your day to day life does that show up. I thought I was a four for a full year until I realized I never go to two. Instead stress. And I was like, ooh, that's interesting. I called my husband one day, I was like, do you ever experience me as wildly generous when I'm stressed out? Like over giving of myself and forgetting my own needs. And he was like, not at all. I was like, then I'm not a four.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And I wasn't.

[Melissa Kircher]

I'm a five for sure. And the stress insecurity of the five, I was like, oh, yeah, that for sure is me.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So, yeah, I can't wait to do digging after this.

[Melissa Kircher]

Yeah, you'll have to email me and let me know. I'm excited.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So awesome. I love each piece of this and I just love that you have such a knowledge of the Enneagram. I love that you're writing a book because that's going to be really cool. And it's coming out next year, correct?

[Melissa Kircher]

2027. Yes.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes. How are we already doing 2027? I have no idea. My mind is blown.

[Melissa Kircher]

I don't know, dude, man. I just. Moment by moment, we're edging towards that.

[Morgan Huelsman]

We are. I love to wrap the episodes with. Whether it be a piece of advice or inspiration or maybe something that we didn't get to that you kind of feel heavy on your heart to share or talk about. I just give the floor over to you and you end us on something.

[Melissa Kircher]

So, man, if you know, a five, putting us on the spot and say be awesome is the worst. What am I supposed to say? Inspiring.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And it doesn't have to be inspiring if there's just something that you're like, I really want to talk about this and we didn't get to it yet. Then bring it up. It's really. The floor is yours in this moment.

[Melissa Kircher]

Okay. I'm going to be fully my type and need a moment to look up and think about what I would like to say.

[Morgan Huelsman]

We like to embrace our types on this episode.

[Melissa Kircher]

That's what we're doing here. I'm a thinker, so I think that. Oh, you know what we didn't bring up Up. I think something that's really important is stances that we didn't bring up. So again, there's all the numbers so that you group them in triads. And there's just all these little triads that throw up, that throw up, that show up. Be funny if they show up. Same thing. Yeah, totally. Exactly the same. It's how you interact with the world. It's how you handle stress and relationships and interact with the world. And I think that it can also help with typing. So there's the assertive stance, the withdrawing stance, and the responsive stance. And that can even narrow down your type down to three if you're confused. The assertive stance takes on the World full force. They are the movers and the doers. They move against people or they're like, hop on board and come with me, I'm going with you whether you like it or not.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Not.

[Melissa Kircher]

They are like making things happen. They're planning for the future, they are goal oriented. Not that other people can't be, but this is the main way of dealing with and being with the world. Responsive triad is all about moving with others, getting their needs met in tandem with other people. So making sure that things are happening alongside of. And then the withdrawer, you can withdraw mentally, you can withdraw into your heart, or you can withdraw physically withdraw to find a sense of equilibrium and get their energy restored so that they can be out in the world. The withdrawers are the fours, fives and nines. The asserters are three, seven and eight. And responsive is two, six and one. And what I think is really interesting about that and think why I'm bringing it up is not only does it help you figure out your type, it can also really be awesome with all of the little ways that we irritate and annoy each other to understand what the heck is going on with somebody else and how they just are in the world. Right. If I'm a withdrawer and there's somebody coming at me assertively, I don't like it and I just, just think they're not a great person. But in actuality, we're just two different energy stances being in the world in a different way. And it can really help your understanding of yourself and having grace and curiosity about other people and how they're wired and make a lot of interactions a little bit better. And I think in this year, 2026, we could all do with interactions with each other being a little less heated and a little more loving and understanding. So yeah, that's what I would like to end with.

[Morgan Huelsman]

See, and that was a great one to end on. And I do agree. I think that's such a huge thing that we're missing right now. Is one understanding ourselves enough to be interacting in the world. I think if we all understood ourselves just a little bit better, we might do a little bit better when we're out into the world. That would be great. Might make things easier on ourselves too. Just a little benefit there.

[Melissa Kircher]

I think so. I think physically, mentally and emotionally, we'd all be in much more of a well place.

[Morgan Huelsman]

That was perfect. Melissa, thank you so much for joining me. And be on the lookout. You can follow her on social media at Enneagram Pass. And she'll be posting. I'll make sure to put it in the show notes so everybody gets that. But she'll be posting, I'm sure when her book is releasing next year. If you're a book girly or like the book club side of things. But if not you just like social media or website. Enneagram pass.com and I know I'm saying that weird P A T H S.

[Melissa Kircher]

I always have to say that too. So yes, yes.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I put we were talking about Hooked on Phonics at the beginning of all this before we got on and you just saw it in real form.

[Melissa Kircher]

I love it. Yeah, I always spell it out anyway. So thank you, Morgan. It's been so great. I'm delighted to be here. It was fun.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Thank you. Thank you. It was great to have you on. I loved having Melissa on this week.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

You can connect with her on Instagram

[Morgan Huelsman]

or on her website. They're linked in the show notes.

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

I think the coolest thing about last week and this week and doing this series on communication is understanding how many different tools we have now to understand ourselves better. But as we discussed in this episode and in the last one, that living

[Morgan Huelsman]

our lives through those tools is the best way to actually put things into practice. So get out there this week and live some life. You deserve it. I can't wait to yap with you

[UnitedHealthcare Announcer]

guys some more next week. Thanks for being here.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Bye.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Now streaming on Paramount, the acclaimed series from executive producer Lena Waithe reaches its final chapter. The Shy. For seven seasons, these stories, these streets, this community have stayed with us. Now it all leads to this. As friendships are tested, families evolve and secrets refuse to stay buried. One thing is certain. The Chi is more than just a series. It's a legacy. Don't miss the final season of the Shy. Now streaming on the Paramount plus premium plan.

[Malcolm Glebel]

When you own your own business, you

[Lowe's Announcer]

need to keep things moving.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Need to book a last minute flight? Earn a $300 travel credit to cover that.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Need to take a meeting before takeoff?

[Malcolm Glebel]

Do it from the comfort of the Chase Sapphire lounge by the club. Need to catch your breath before you board. Done. Chase Sapphire reserved for business. The business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com ReserveBusiness to learn more. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank. Any member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[Danielle Fishel]

This is Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong and Will Friedle from Pod Meets World. You know what I didn't expect? Becoming best friends with Chewy's customer service.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, been there. I've chatted with them as late as midnight, they actually get pet people.

[Danielle Fishel]

And if Pickles or Lucky hate something, I just send it back. 100% satisfaction guarantee. Gives you a whole year to make a return, no questions asked.

[Ryder Strong]

Meanwhile, I'm over here ordering everything for bill and brunch. Food, treats, beds, toys. Because Chewy has over 100,000 products to

[Danielle Fishel]

choose from and it shows up in like a day. I mean, my dog Sammy thinks the delivery driver is her personal assistant. And I'm not sure she's wrong. It's not just for dogs and cats either. They've got stuff for birds, fish, reptiles. The list goes on and and on.

[Ryder Strong]

And the health side is huge for me too. Prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth, vet visits.

[Danielle Fishel]

They're even opening vet clinics now. My cat pretends he doesn't care, but he benefits.

[Ryder Strong]

Chewy just makes the whole pet parent thing easier for life with pets, the answer is chewy. Save 20 on your first order with free shipping at chupanions.chewy.com World hello beautiful. I'm Amy Eric, founder of Madison Reid, a hair color company I named after my daughter. Forget everything you know about hair color. The mess, the smell, the hassle, the damage. We're female founded and female led. We've transformed the hair color experience with ingredients that care for your hair and award winning color on your terms at home or at our hair color bars. The future of hair color is here at Madison Reef.

[Melissa Kircher]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Guaranteed human.