TAKE THIS PERSONALLY - Why We Feel Lonely Even Though We’re Always "Connected"

Summary

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The Bobby Bones Show: "TAKE THIS PERSONALLY – Why We Feel Lonely Even Though We’re Always 'Connected'"

Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Morgan Huelsman
Guest: Jason Van Ruler – Psychotherapist, Author ("Discovering Your Communication Type"), Speaker

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Overview

This episode, hosted by Morgan Huelsman and guest Jason Van Ruler, explores why many people feel lonelier than ever, despite being digitally "connected." The conversation centers on how understanding and practicing better communication—especially by recognizing one's communication type—can combat the loneliness epidemic, deepen relationships, and foster meaningful connections. Jason introduces a new framework for understanding communication styles (the PATHS model), discusses the roots of our communication habits, and provides practical advice for breaking free from isolation.

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. Why Communication Matters

• Jason’s Motivation for the Book:

  • As a psychotherapist, Jason noticed that many people, couples, and teams claim they "just can’t communicate," but struggle to define what that means. His book aims to make understanding communication more practical and accessible.
    • "If I could teach people how to communicate better, that would slow things down a bit…[the book] came from seeing so many times, whether I'm meeting with a couple or a team, people say we just can't communicate." — Jason Van Ruler (03:56)

• Communication: Foundation of Relationships:

  • Morgan frames communication as the bedrock of all relationships—romantic, platonic, familial, or professional.

2. The PATHS Communication Types: Five Distinct ‘Whys’

• Jason explains his acronym PATHS, representing five core communication motives:

  • P – Peacemaker: Values harmony, avoids conflict, great at calming groups but may struggle with necessary tough conversations.
  • A – Advocate: Focuses on fairness and morality; always ready to speak out for justice but may struggle with timing or overdoing it.
  • T – Thinker: Precise and careful, values accuracy, communicates less frequently, needs to learn to share their process and feelings more.
  • H – Harbor: Emotion-focused, talks about feelings (their own and others’), can sometimes go too deep when it’s not needed.
  • S – Spark: Brings energy, fun, and momentum; needs to slow down and accept conversations that aren’t all high energy.

  "There's no one better than the others. Except for we all think ours is best, right? ...They're just strengths and opportunities for growth." — Jason Van Ruler (06:13)

• Nuance & Adaptability:

  • Most people have a primary communication type rooted in childhood, but effective communicators learn to use all types situationally.
    • "If we're effective speakers, we learn how to do all of them, but we typically come back to one, especially under pressure." — Jason Van Ruler (10:30)

3. Why Understanding Communication Types Is Helpful

• Self-Discovery & Empathy:

  • Knowing your type deepens self-awareness and allows for more empathy towards others.
  • Jason shares that understanding his ‘Harbor’ style helped his marriage with his ‘Thinker’ wife.

    "It does change everything because instead of seeing our partner or people around us as the villain in the story, we see them as someone who's just trying to connect with us differently." — Jason Van Ruler (12:09)

• Impact on All Relationships:

  • Awareness spreads from intimate relationships to friends, family, and coworkers, improving connection everywhere.
    • "Self awareness is not a common thing...But as you do [assessments], you know yourself better. And knowing yourself better allows you to know other people better and know how it lands." — Jason Van Ruler (15:48)

4. Challenges: Change, Growth, and Resistance

• Why Change Is Hard:
  • People are resistant to self-examination and uncomfortable change.
    • "We like this idea that we wouldn't have to do any more than we're doing. Change and growth are uncomfortable." — Jason Van Ruler (19:54)
  • Growth costs us: "the cost of doing it and the cost of regret of not doing it."

5. Societal Loneliness & Technology

• Loneliness Epidemic:

  • The episode connects poor communication and lack of real conversations to rising social isolation.

    "There's definitely the connection between that and the loneliness epidemic...A lot of us aren't having the conversations we need to have." — Jason Van Ruler (28:02)

• Technology’s Double-Edged Sword:

  • Despite being “connected,” many lack genuine, vulnerable conversations—even about positive things.
    • "We're surrounded and connected via technology, but we're not really feeling that." — Jason Van Ruler (28:26)

6. Practical Tips for Rebuilding Connection

• Start Small, Practice Often:

  • Don’t start with the hardest conversation. Practice daily, low-stakes sharing to regain communication skills.

    "If you want to be better at the difficult stuff, do the day-to-day stuff and work from there...Start small, work your way in." — Jason Van Ruler (29:04)

• Balance of Positive and Negative:

  • Both celebratory and difficult conversations matter. True intimacy requires room for both.

    "To really know somebody is to see both and to be able to have both of those conversations." — Jason Van Ruler (30:35)

• Receiving as Well as Sending:

  • Being a good communicator means also making space to really listen.
    • "If we don't receive other people's and we don't listen and we don't create space, we're not really interacting." — Jason Van Ruler (35:53)

• Vulnerability Breeds Connection:

  • When someone is brave enough to share first (good or bad), it empowers others to open up.

    "What always happens is 10 other hands go up right after that hand because they gave permission to everybody else to say the thing." — Jason Van Ruler (36:14)

7. Personal Struggles, Growth, and Encouragement

• Everyone Struggles—Even the Experts:

  • Jason and Morgan both candidly share their own ongoing battles with self-criticism and practicing what they teach.
    • "I think we give others the gift we need most, right? ...If we can let people in, we find out we're more alike than different and we can actually help heal some of that stuff." — Jason Van Ruler (39:53)

• Perfect Facades vs. Real Lives:

  • The more energy spent creating a perfect outside, the more internal damage and loneliness.
    • "The people who are really good at constructing a life that looks perfect...it's even harder to say you have a problem." — Jason Van Ruler (43:26)

8. Closing Encouragement

• Don’t Despair—Change Is Possible:

  • Jason closes with hope, urging listeners not to count themselves out if they feel stuck.

    "If you're listening today and you're like, yeah, but I'm just stuck, I just say, like, just take the first step. ...What's on the other side of that is undoubtedly better than where you're at." — Jason Van Ruler (45:36)

• Self-Exploration:

  • Morgan recommends Jason’s book, "Discovering Your Communication Type," as a safe and constructive way to begin understanding and improving your own communication for healthier, deeper relationships.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Communication Types:
  "I think of this communication type as is kind of like your accent... It's what is the why we're going for in our conversation." — Jason Van Ruler (05:22)

• On Self-Awareness and Growth:
  "Our places where we're usually the most stuck are often the places we're least aware of ourselves." — Jason Van Ruler (15:48)

• On the Hard Truth About Change:
  "It costs you both ways. Right. So there's the cost of doing it and the discomfort and there's a cost of regret of not doing it." — Jason Van Ruler (19:54)

• On Technology and Communication:
  "We're just out of practice a little bit... Now, with a lot of technology stuff, we're just less incentivized or inclined to do this." — Jason Van Ruler (26:49)

• On the Importance of Honest Sharing:
  "We are hungry for the truth, and that can actually go either way... We're not allowed to say the bad stuff, but we also don't feel allowed sometimes to just say, I'm actually doing okay." — Jason Van Ruler (37:34)

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Important Timestamps

• PATHS Model Introduction (06:08–09:10)
• Primary vs. Flexible Communication Types (09:48–11:00)
• Why Awareness Matters (11:04–12:36)
• Change and Resistance (19:54–20:54)
• Society’s Communication Breakdown & Loneliness (21:34–28:02)
• Practical Advice: Don’t Start at the Deep End (29:04–29:56)
• Celebratory vs. Difficult Conversations (30:35–31:18)
• Vulnerability and Leading by Example (35:53–37:01)
• Wrap-Up and Final Encouragement (45:36–47:51)

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is open, empathetic, and gently challenging, mixing humor, personal stories, and actionable insights. Both Jason and Morgan model vulnerability—acknowledging their own continued growth—as they encourage listeners to understand their own style, connect more deeply, and recognize the essential human need for genuine communication.

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Resources

• Discovering Your Communication Type by Jason Van Ruler (linked in show notes)
• Follow Morgan (@WebgirlMorgan) and the show on Instagram: @TakeThisPersonally

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Final Word:
You don’t need to stay stuck or lonely. Know yourself, take small steps, and remember—“we’re better together.” Start a conversation, and let it lead somewhere real.

Transcript

[Morgan Huelsman]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Morgan Huelsman]

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[Morgan Huelsman]

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public

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Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra NSIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

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[Jason Van Ruler]

Take this personally. With Morgan Huelsman.

[Morgan Huelsman]

It is time for a new series. We're talking about talking, but not just any kind. Communication specifically, since that is the basis for all relationships. But do we really know what communication is? Are we doing it in a way that's helping us in our lives and in our relationships? These next two episodes will dive into two different types of personality assessments for a better understanding of how we interact with the world around us. So let's do this. Jason Van Ruler joins me this week. He's a psychotherapist, therapist, author, speaker, and just a man of many hats. But he also has a really cool book out right now that's called discovering your communication type, which we can all use a lot more communication of. So, Jason, thanks for joining me this week.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. So talk to me. Obviously, you have a lot of roles that would probably put you in a position to be having this conversation. But why the book? Why communication? Why was this something that you were drawn to, really start speaking on?

[Jason Van Ruler]

I have a terrible business model. So, Morgan, I'm always looking, how do I put myself out of a job? And I thought, boy, if I could teach people how to communicate better, that would slow things down a bit. And I wanted to do it. But in all honesty, the book really came from seeing so many times, whether I'm meeting with a couple or a team, people say we just can't communicate. And seeing the struggle and stress that comes with that. And so a lot of times what I would say is, what does it mean we can't communicate? And they'd say, we can't communicate. And I'm like, I think you just use the word to define the word. So what is that? And what I found is just so many of us didn't even know how to describe the problem. And so that kind of led me down. What if we could just make this thing that's seemingly really complicated more simple and actually practical and something we could do.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. And communication is the basis of all relationships. Right. If you can't communicate.

[Jason Van Ruler]

I heard that somewhere. Yeah. It's important. Yes.

[Cindy Crawford]

Yeah.

[Morgan Huelsman]

It's like if both of you are speaking a different language, obviously it's going to be really difficult to understand the other person and to have a relationship with them, whatever kind of relationship that may be. So when you talk about discovering your communication types, teach me this, because this is new to me. I've Never heard of this before. And I'm really curious about what it all breaks down to. I love nuance. I like getting into the nitty gritty.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, let's talk about it. If you think about we have personality types. We've got a lot of great research. If you think of, like the Enneagram and you think of the Myers Briggs, there's all these good personality underpinnings. And then what I think of this communication type as is kind of like your accent. So you're talking to me. I'm from the Midwest. I might sound like a Midwest guy. You talk to someone else from New York, they sound like a New Yorker. So how do we naturally show up in communication? And put differently, it's what is the why we're going for in our conversation? And so what I found is there's really five distinct whys that we use for communication to get to connection. And they're all a little bit different and they follow this acronym. Pads, P, A, T, H, S. Okay.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And so paths. There's five different types. Walk me through those five different types.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, absolutely. And I always like the disclaimer. There's no one better than the others. Except for we all think ours is best, right? So we're like, mine is obviously the best one, but there actually isn't. They're just strengths and opportunities. So the P is the peacemaker. And their strength is they are always reading the room and they're trying to figure out, how can I say the thing that means we don't have conflict? That means that we have some harmony and some agreement and that this ends at the outcome I'm looking for. And so that's really wonderful because those people can calm a room pretty quickly and they can communicate and get a group to slow down. Their opportunity for growth, though, is not everything's peaceful. Sometimes there's difficult conversations and it's not smooth and it's rough and there's friction. And so they have to practice that a little bit. The A is the advocate. And advocates are really concerned about communicating about what's fair and right and moral. And so I always joke, we all have that friend where it's like, is someone going to say something? It's that friend. That friend is like, I'm going to say something every single time. And so that's awesome. And they maybe don't have to say it every time. Right. Sometimes someone else can say it or it doesn't need to be said. So their opportunity is time and place. The T is the thinker. And the thinker is an internal processor who communicates less frequently than others. And when they do communicate, it's because they want to get it right and accurate and precise. And so they're the people where, if we're talking and they cite research, but they realize later it was wrong or the year was wrong, they're losing sleep over that. Right. They're like I said, 25%. It was 22%. Oh, how could I have done that? So they're really focused on that part. Their opportunity for growth is sometimes letting people into their process and talking about feelings a little bit more so people know that's what's going on. The harbor is my type, and we're all about the feelings. Right. We just want to talk about our feelings. Your feelings. Feelings, feelings all the time. And that's great. As a therapist, it's pretty good. My opportunity for growth, or a harbor's opportunity is sometimes a conversation doesn't need that. And so I joke and I say I'm a bad dinner party guest because my buddy will come up and be like, what did you just say to them? And I'm like, why? And they're like, I think they were crying as they walked away. And I'm like, oh, we're just talking about their mother and how they felt about childhood. And they're like, what are you doing, Jason? What can you just talk about sports or something? And so sometimes it's not that helpful. Right. So our opportunity is. Doesn't always need to be that way. Sometimes we need to be a little more clear. And then the spark is kind of your energetic, charismatic person who comes in the room. They want to have fun. They want to have a lot of momentum, which is great. Their opportunity is slowing down a little bit and realizing that sometimes it's not high energy or fun, but you still have to have the conversation.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay, so there's a few things I noticed in here. One being that you use the word opportunity for growth, which I like. Instead of it being our flaws and our thanks.

[Jason Van Ruler]

It's our opportunity for growth.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes, Yes. I like the wording there. We're really. We're aiming for that. And then the other thing that I'm interesting, probably, from my perspective, is seeing is what if there's pieces of me that are each of those in different scenarios? So is that a possibility that you have kind of competing communication types, or is it that you lean into one and maybe you respond in one if you're in a particular situation?

[Jason Van Ruler]

You get it. Yeah, you get it. So a Lot of where this comes from is the origin that I found with a lot of people is childhood. So we kind of looked at our family and looked at our situation and said. And this wasn't conscious, but we said, what do we need? What does someone need to talk about? And so then we adopt this style. So for me, I grew up in the Midwest, pretty stoic people, religious people. We're not talking about feelings. Right. There was not a lot of, how do you feel about that? And so I thought, hey, our family needs a therapist. I. I think I will be the guy. And so that is my primary. But what I would tell you is if we're effective speakers, we learn how to do all of them, but we typically come back to one, especially under pressure.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay. I was wondering, because I feel like, especially as ideally, we evolve as adults and we start to learn to understand people better. That's the goal. So I could see that people would have each of these. So it seems that you. Your communication type mo, the one that you're most heavily is the one that maybe is the most comfortable for you, the one that you kind of fall back to whenever it gets a little tough or something, and you kind of go back into this one position. Am I reading that correctly?

[Jason Van Ruler]

Absolutely. Yep. Yep. That's one of choice. If we have a choice.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Okay. So in knowing these things, understanding our communication is one piece to that puzzle. Understanding why we do the things that we do. But why is it helpful to understand this for our relationships? Why does it matter what our communication type is? We're breaking this down to the bare minimum. If somebody's like, well, I don't care, then, sure, I'm a thinker. Why does that matter?

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, I think we all doing the assessment of stuff. It's a personal development. But I think what's really underneath all of it is connection. And so many times I see people in a relationship, and I'm married, and I've done this myself, so I'm a harbor. I'm married to a thinker. And so for a long time, I would communicate about what's natural to me, and she would communicate about what's natural to her. And it would be easy to make up a story about why she did that. And if I'm being really honest, it wasn't a positive story. Right. It wasn't like, well, she's talking about those things because she loves me so much and we're best friends. And it was like, she's saying that because I'm not saying it right, or we're in conflict. And I had this really cool moment where I was writing the book and I was like, this is awesome, Jason, you should do this. This is so good. Jason, you should try this. And I have, I have. And it does change everything because instead of seeing our partner or people around us as the villain in the story, we see them as someone who's just trying to connect with us differently. And when we can do that, I think we give grace and compassion where we wouldn't have otherwise.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Oh, and that's so tough, right? Because having grace and compassion, while we like to think that's really easy to just. Yeah, empathy, compassion, we care about the people in our lives. But genuinely having it without an ulterior motive is actually really difficult for human beings. Just because nature wise, we like to look out for ourselves. That's what our natural instinct is. I gotta look out for me and do what's best for me. So to peel back that layer and have that layer of vulnerability stripped away, I would imagine does come with also a lot of unlearning of things that we've been taught previously. Yeah.

[Jason Van Ruler]

And being open to something new, I think that's the challenge too, is you have to be willing to see it differently. And so if you have that willingness, the good news is things can always change for the better. If you don't have willingness, you're going to be stuck.

[Morgan Huelsman]

So you mentioned it really helped in benefiting your marriage and your guys's relationship. So did it help too, as you go out from that? Right. That's your most interpersonal one. Then you start looking at friendships and you look at family and stuff like that. Did it deeply impact you when you started to understand that about yourself and as you started to understand other people better too?

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, it helped me know myself better, which is self awareness is not a common thing. So it helped me to know myself a little bit better and how I show up and how it lands. But then clinically I get to work with people one on one. And couples and teams started using this and saw huge changes in people's relationships just because they better understood themselves and others. And so as that happened and we started to do some research and work the assessment out and that sort of thing, it was like, this is something that's actually moving the needle in people's relationships. And so that's been a really fun thing to see.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Well, and I would imagine that would be the case because with any personality assessment that I've ever done in my life, you'd think about the one way Back when I was in leadership class, we did the Myers Briggs. It was one of the first things we learned about ourselves, because all about leadership is communication. How do you communicate? You have to understand who you are to know how to communicate. And then came the Enneagram. And I knew all about the Enneagram. And now this is another one that I think the coolest thing that I've experienced from any personality assessment is that it peels back another layer of understanding who I am. You just mentioned that there. And that's why I think stuff like this is so important. Because as much as we think it's really easy to know ourselves. Right. We all feel like, I know who I am, I know what I feel and what I believe. It's actually really hard to go from the inside out, knowing everything about who you are and how you respond, because we don't want to believe the hard parts about ourselves. We don't want to believe that there's something that I could be doing better. We want to believe that we're doing everything correct. Right. So I imagine you'd be seeing a lot of that, too, just the experiences with people where they're getting to peel back layers of who they are.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah. And I relate to that. All of us, we want to be told we're doing it great and it's just perfect and couldn't be better. But what's true is that our places where we're usually the most stuck are often the places we're least aware of ourselves. And I don't think any one assessment is everything. I don't think you have to do a hundred of them. But I do think, like you said along the way, as you do them, you know yourself better. And knowing yourself better allows you to know other people better and know how it lands. And I think that's so important, whether you're a leader or a speaker or you're married or you have kiddos, like in any relationship, that's a vital part of it.

[UnitedHealthcare Narrator]

Health insurance should make getting care easier, but sometimes it can feel like the opposite. That's why UnitedHealthcare is committed to putting care at the heart of health insurance, with empathy, transparency, and real human connection. I mean, doesn't care feel different when it's personal, when you can tell that the person on the other end of the phone, the screen, and the Service genuinely cares? UnitedHealthcare is working to make that happen every day. They're also helping people make healthcare decisions with confidence, giving them the information that they need to better understand their benefits. Costs and claims because UnitedHealthcare knows when you understand that stuff, you can better get the care you and your family need. UnitedHealthcare is also working to make care more accessible. They're doing it by helping connect people with more top doctors, clinics, specialists and such right in their own communities. It makes getting care easier and feels way more personal. You know, care can show up in a lot of ways and everyone at UnitedHealthcare is committed to bringing it every day. Learn more about how UnitedHealthcare is committed to [e-mail] Care support for the show

[Public Investing Narrator]

comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public

[Public Investing Legal Disclaimer]

Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

[Public Investing Narrator]

Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures hi, I'm

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[Morgan Huelsman]

And why do you think it is that I imagine you've experienced this as you've tried to teach and really practice what you teach too. Or why is it so hard for us to make that adjustment? Say you're. You work with somebody for a while and you're like, you're definitely a thinker and this is how you respond in. In X, Y, Z scenarios. But why do you feel like it, even knowing that people will still say no, that couldn't possibly be me.

[Jason Van Ruler]

I think we like it our way. We like this idea that we wouldn't have to do any more than we're doing. And I think that's what's hard, is change and growth are uncomfortable. There's not really a way around that. And so I think sometimes when we have that conversation, people will say, oh, Jason, I don't want to do more. I don't want to have to learn about this. And so it's like, you don't have to. You get to if you want, and it costs you both ways. Right. So there's the cost of doing it and the discomfort and there's a cost of regret of not doing it. But I think a lot of times we just want to come back to being in the middle. We want to come back to resting state where we don't have to do anything. But what's true. And part of the reason for the book is we all know people that we can know better. And one of the worst things to have happen is if you lose somebody and you go, I wish I knew them better than I knew them. That's a terrible feeling. And so one of the things I wanted with the book is to know people better while you know them, because I think that's important.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. And that, gosh, that makes me want to go a few different directions. One being a lot of what we're seeing right now, where we're at as a society is a lot of breaking of relationships. Right. A lot of people are. They're separating from certain relationships, whether it be for the smallest things or the biggest things. We're just seeing a lot of separation more than we're seeing a lot of connection. And is learning your communication type and understanding yourself better put you in a better position for that not to be your experience? I'm assuming you're having people that come and that's part of the things that they're trying to work through.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, I think it helps because we can see the other person's perspective. So for me, if I'm talking about feelings and you're a thinker, I'm really happy and comfortable with that. You're not. And so what I can start to see is my impact on you. And I love how you said it. I think we're just becoming a society that's really hyper focused on everyone else's impact on us, but we're less focused on our impact on others. And so my hope was this helps us see that a little bit. Not to make us feel bad or guilty or ashamed, but just to see that again, that opportunity for growth that we have when we better understand this is what it's like for them to experience you.

[Morgan Huelsman]

It's funny you just said it right there. We really don't like to recognize our role that we play in things. And this is like shining a bright light on the role that we play in every situation.

[Jason Van Ruler]

It's true.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And I even see it right when I did the Enneagram, I learned that I was a 5050 split. I had two separate things in there in my personality type which are contradictory. And I always joked, I was like, well, I got two personalities. Depends on the day which one you're gonna get. And it's very true. I've definitely seen it play out in my life a lot. But one of those being a challenger. And I really, I love to pull the best out of people. And I am also guilty of doing that when I shouldn't be. And so I have seen myself in conversations, act as the challenger and be like, let's do it this way or try this or do this. And I also, it's an out of body experience. I actively watch myself backpedal where I'm like, oh, pull that back, pull that back. Don't do that. They don't need that right now. Let's come back. And I verbally will be like, I'm so sorry. I don't think you needed that right now. And I just. Please ignore, rewind, erase.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Listen to you. Wow.

[Morgan Huelsman]

It's hard to do though, because when you are so habitually a version of yourself and you feel that's the best part of you, right? You feel like that's what you have to offer the world. So to have a belief that something about that is bad makes it really difficult. Especially when you're in it, you're actively experiencing it.

[Jason Van Ruler]

You're like, we're gonna do the thing. I am challenging you right now. You're gonna change your life. This is your moment. But what you said is so good, is like not every situation calls for that. And having the awareness to say, and I love how you're like, I step back, I just go, hey, that's not what that called for. And I catch myself. And that's kind of what I'm going for, is some situations you'll shine, you'll go, hey, is there a challenger? Is there an 8 here? And it'll be like, we got one. This is awesome. And then other times, it's the wisdom of knowing when not to do the thing that comes easy and much to

[Morgan Huelsman]

what you're talking about. In these communication types, each one has a purpose. Each one has a huge strength that we all need, but we all need them in various times. And so to understand how and when that works is also a skill that's an active skill that we have to learn that I don't really think a lot of us are taught in school. I got really lucky. I did leadership classes, but we're not taught that.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, I love that you did it. Most of us, though, it's like, that's an afterthought or it's an adult thing, but we don't. This is not usually part of core curriculum.

[Morgan Huelsman]

No. Which is wild because again, we go back to. We think about communication, and you're like, you communicate every day. You're talking. This is stuff that you should just learn. But it's actually not like having self awareness, having an understanding of humans and their relationships and the interpersonal relationships with people. It's actually not that easy. We love to make it seem like it's easy, but it's not.

[Jason Van Ruler]

No, it is. And I think it's not always obvious what we're missing. I think that's the other part too, is sometimes I talk to people and they go, I'm good enough. I'm good enough at communication, I think. And so I go, okay, I'm glad you think that. That's awesome. Go to the three to five people closest to you and just ask them if they feel comfortable telling you something challenging or something that's meaningful to them. And so I'll send them out, and they'll usually do this, and they'll come back and they'll just kind of shake their head and I'll say, what'd you learn? What'd you find out? And a lot of times it's. People feel less open to us than we feel to them. And so they'll say, yeah, I don't know if I would tell you something challenging or I don't know if I could tell you something hard or. And so that's the thing is, like, there's our version and there's their version, and we kind of have to take into account their version.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Oh, yeah, that's so tough. We love our version, so we love.

[Jason Van Ruler]

My version is best. I love my version. I'm a big fan of my version. I'm actually president of the fan club. It's a great version. Yes. But there are others.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes, there is. And it's so important that we can take a step back and acknowledge that, because it's also especially difficult when you are working with people to understand this and become what they need to become. Right. To understand their communication type, to communicate effectively. To communicate in a way that's helping both parties, whoever's involved. I don't think that happens overnight, but

[Jason Van Ruler]

correct me if I'm wrong, you could do it overnight. Yeah, I think if you work hard enough, sure. Over. No, no. What's true is it's practice. And that's the thing. And that's not to put down where we live or how we live, but it's just we're all out of practice a little bit. When I sit down and I talk to somebody and they say, I want to be better at communication and having difficult conversations or impactful conversations, I'll say, when's the last time you had one? And a lot of times the answer is like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Or it's been years. And so I think now, with a lot of technology stuff, we're just less incentivized or inclined to do this. And so a lot of us, we have the need, we have the desire. We're just out of practice.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Oh, yeah, we're out of practice in a lot of ways. Not just even in our general relationships in our life, but there's people that have communities that they don't communicate with. There's neighbors that people have that they don't know. There's a mass, just almost like exodus of no longer communicating, which is really wild. But talk to me about the damage that does to a human, because as a psychotherapist, I imagine you have seen the impacts of what that looks like to us if we aren't having meaningful connections.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, there's definitely the connection between that and the loneliness epidemic. It's. Why are we lonely? A lot of us aren't having the conversations we need to have. And sometimes we mistakenly think that the conversations all have to be negative or hard or challenging, but we're not even having the good Conversations. A question I like to ask people is when's the last time you told somebody something you're really proud of or that you celebrated? And even that's like why I haven't really told anybody that. And so I think the less we communicate, the more isolated we are and the more lonely we are and we end up doing the thing where we're surrounded and connected via technology, but we're not really feeling that. And so I think talking can be the answer. Having conversations can be the answer to a lot of the problems we're experiencing.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Would you suggest, because I imagine there's also a lot of people out there because we're out of practice and we haven't been doing our best at communicating and being connected, that it's better to try and fail at your communication than to not try at all?

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, yeah. The stakes are low when we practice with other people on day to day stuff. So what I tell people is if you want to be better at the difficult stuff, do the day to day stuff and, and work from there. I think what a lot of people do is they're like, I'm outta practice. That's fine. There's this one big thing, there's an elephant in the room, I haven't said anything and I'm going to pick one person and I'm going to go tell them the most vulnerable thing ever. And I'm going to cross my fingers, they handle it well. And so I'm usually like, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop, stop. Let's ease into it a little bit. Because it's the equivalent of saying, I don't really know how to swim, so I'll just jump in the deep end and hope to figure it out. And it's like, well, maybe you will, but probably you won't. And so I think for a lot of people, what I try to challenge them is like, hey, just start small, just start small, work your way in. And then if a person's safe and they're responsive, keep going and get to the place you need to get to. But don't start in the deep end and work your way out.

[Morgan Huelsman]

I'd love to know from your perspective because as you're mentioning this and you had said something about talking to people about your celebratory and the things that are good in your life. Is there any truth to understanding a relationship when you feel able to have only good conversations with somebody versus never having bad ones? Because I do imagine that isn't the most healthy relationship or even vice versa. Right. You can only have bad ones, but never have good ones. Those types of communication styles where you might have a relationship in your life that you're leaning into one or the other, I would imagine that's not the best thing.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, we're always striving for balance as humans. We just, we never nail it. Right. We're always like, I'll do it all this way or all that way, but never in the middle, middle. And so I often say the opposite of one extreme is another, and we don't want another extreme. We want to be in the middle. And so I think there's room for celebration and there's also room for, I'm struggling, I think too much of either one of those or if it's lopsided and there's seasons of life where it might be, but on average, if it's all negative, that's not a lot of fun. Not a lot of people want to talk to that person over and over again. But it's also, if it's all positive, I'm amazing. I did this. Like that gets kind of old too. So I think to really know somebody is to see both and to be able to have both of those conversations.

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[Morgan Huelsman]

And that's what I really want to encourage people. Because I do think because of the technology that we are given every Day. It's really easy to only see the good in a lot of people's life, especially if you're not openly having a conversation with them off of the Internet, away from the things out there. And so we often just love to see the rainbows and unicorns and having tough conversations. Often people run away from them because they're afraid of them. So I just want to encourage people of the benefits of utilizing both and being willing to be vulnerable and expose yourself a little bit to create deeper and meaningful relationships. Because I also think that's a piece to. This communication style is like, you could have the best communication in the world. You could understand your type, you know what you're doing. But if you're also not receiving as well and allowing yourself this open environment, I don't know that the communication style is going to help you a whole lot. And totally correct me if I'm wrong there.

[Jason Van Ruler]

No, you're not wrong at all. That is such a good word. Because if we don't receive other people's and we don't listen and we don't create space, we're not really interacting. And so sometimes some of us kind of hide behind education. We know all the things we can recite, all the words we can do. That's great. I don't know if that's relational. And so it's. How do we do that in a way that allows us to be seen? And I think a lot of times what we say is, well, if I told somebody that they wouldn't love me, or if I told somebody that, they'd see me differently. But you can take it from me, I get to do all these retreats and workshops. And so we'll ask a question and someone will stand up and they'll raise their hand and they'll say a true thing. And so what that person believes when they're the first person to stand up is, okay, I just said the true thing. That wrecked it for me right now. Everyone doesn't see me. But what always happens is 10 other hands go up right after that hand because they gave permission to everybody else to say the thing. And so when I'm working with somebody, what I usually say is, yeah, everybody feels like if they let somebody in, that's gonna happen. But what's more true is we're empowering other people to do the same. And most people are just waiting for

[Morgan Huelsman]

someone to do that very much. Again, it goes back to that. We're desperate for that connection to people. And the second that someone's brave enough to say, hey, this is who I am and where I stand at the current moment. It's going to open up for somebody else who's in that same feeling environment to say, hey, me too. And now all of a sudden, you've created a person that you can relate to. And it's interesting that we're so desperate to have that, but it's the thing that we're most afraid of doing.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, it's scary, but I think it's the truth, right? It's. We are hungry for the truth, and that can actually go either way. I talked to people that this great leadership retreat I went to, and someone said, hey, what is everyone struggling with? Be honest. And there was this person, and I'll never forget this, but they said, you know what? Just being, like, straight with you, it's been like a great month. I've actually just had a really good month. There's like a struggle before that, and now it's good. And so, like, I could make up something, but I'm actually, like, just doing pretty well right now. And I thought, man, it's like, we're not allowed to say the bad stuff, but we also don't feel allowed sometimes to just say, I'm actually doing okay. Things are pretty good. Like, I hear a lack of both sides of that.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Oh, gosh, that's so true. Because if you. Again, we go back to, like, we're in judgment zone, right? We are. Everything we do, how we live our lives is broadcasted in some way, shape or form. And so everything we do feels judged, whether it be celebratory, whether it be a failure. So either or it doesn't matter which side you're on. There's always going to be somebody who doesn't like what you're doing or doesn't like how you're feeling.

[Jason Van Ruler]

And now that's the hard part, isn't it? Yeah, there is.

[Morgan Huelsman]

There is. And we have to accept it. It's something I struggle with the most. I. While I can have this facade of wanting the best for other people, I'm also my own worst critic. That's where my opportunity for growth is. That's how we call it.

[Jason Van Ruler]

I love how you said that. That's brilliant. Yes. Your opportunity for growth. Yes.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yep. My opportunity for growth is my. I am my own worst critic. I could do everything correct. I could have the perfect day in the world, and I could and find the five things that didn't go perfectly correct. And it is my biggest nightmare. Right. It's the biggest thing that I struggle with on a daily basis. And so I see that. I see a lot of people experience the same thing that I'm experiencing. And I could say, just try this and if you do this, you'll be fine and you'll feel a lot better. As I'm sitting at home being like, that didn't go a hundred percent correct. And that also took a different type. I'm sitting there doing the things that I'm saying on my front side. Hey, it's okay. You're doing great.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Back, back end. You're like, ah, it's not great at all. No, it's not going well. This is not how it should be. I think we give others the gift we need most, right? So we show up and you're like, I'm gonna support and encourage you and tell you it's okay. And it's like, well, what message you need to hear? And you're like, I'm okay and I can. And so it's. I think that's the thing where if we can let people in, we find out we're more alike than different and we can actually help heal some of that stuff. But I'm the same way. I'm problem oriented, which makes me great at my job, bad as a person. So I'm like, I can help you solve something, but if you sit me in a room and you're like, everything's great, just enjoy it. I'm like, oh, we can't do that. No, there, there has got to be an issue. We just haven't found it yet. There's a problem, we'll find it. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. Gotta be a problem.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes. And it's really funny when you do allow somebody in. My fiance does really good at looking at me and just saying, would you say that to somebody else? Why are you saying that about you? And I'm like, it's a really solid point. And you're right. But I still feel the way that

[Jason Van Ruler]

I do, but I have different rules. It's a great point, but I have different rules. So. Yes, good point though. But it's different for me.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes, yes. But to your point, allowing that space for somebody to come in and, and be a safe space for you and saying, hey, just. Just giving you a little bit more perspective here so you can slowly start to chip away at those things that are difficult and those things that are hard. As. As much as we really love to believe, like I said at the very beginning of all of this, that we can take care of ourselves. We can do it all. We are team Me. Go me. We can't. We're humans, and humans desire communication and connection, and that is the basis of what we need to survive.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah. Yeah. And you said it so well. But that's the truth. And we can kind of try to make it into something different, but we're always going to come back to that is we're better together. And so if we can learn to be together, that's just going to be a win for everybody involved.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And to your point, I go back to the story you shared from your. That it was the leadership summit that you were at. Is that correct? Okay. Where the person had got up and like, I've had a really good month. So when people have those really good months, I think we make sure that they celebrate the fact that they've had a really good month, because that's hard to do and also be there when people aren't. I think that's the other piece to this is not just learning ourselves, but learning how other people can be supported in a way that kind of molds all of this together. And that was the thing that I took away from that moment that you shared.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah. It's just learning to sit with people and not having to make it into something else. I think we do that so often where we're sort of like, well, it's this. But if you just make it this, that'd be better. And I think learning just to go, I'm okay with how it is. It doesn't have to be any different than how it is. That is a lost art.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And I want to know, too, from your perspective, being a psychotherapist, I've always been curious of this. You've been super vulnerable with me and sharing. You're like, I'm good at my job in this way, but. But this part's hard. I do imagine that you struggle with some of that same parts that we're dealing with.

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Right.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Because you're still human. I bring on experts, and they're amazing, and they know what they're talking about and they're so good at it. But also, at the end of the day, you're still a human. You're still learning the same things we are. You just might have a little extra knowledge in some different areas that we also need. So is that true?

[Jason Van Ruler]

It's true. I have it all figured out by now, Morgan. So, yes, I have figured it all out. Not everyone has. No. I think actually that's the thing that makes people best at helping People is the not having it figured out part. I think you need to be a couple steps ahead in a couple areas you help people with. But I think if you lose the ability to say, I don't have it all figured out, you're a lot less helpful because how do you relate to that person? It's kind of like, okay, so you don't ever struggle, I guess. I'm not going to tell you my struggle. And I think sometimes with social media, we can easily fall into that belief because we're like, well, you're this person, and if you're that person, then how would you ever understand? And I think sometimes those people are the loneliest, the people who are really good at constructing a life that looks perfect because it creates this situation where people don't assume you'd have a problem. And so it's even harder to say you have a problem because you work so hard to make it look like you don't. Mm.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah. Creating that perfect reality. And sometimes, honestly, I've noticed, and maybe this is something you've seen, too. But often when we are so caught up with trying to create and navigate and map this kind of perfect visual of what our lives look like, whether it be on social media or just a frontal to other people that you interact with daily, we end up breaking more internally when the outside is more perfect because we're not allowing that to come out.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Yeah, I like the way you said that. It's true. It costs us something, and I don't know, we know the cost. Other people don't see it very much so.

[Morgan Huelsman]

And, Jason, I think I could sit here and talk about. I love communication. It's like, I studied broadcast journalism. This is my area of exercise.

[Jason Van Ruler]

You get it?

[Morgan Huelsman]

Love it. I do. And you could. You wrote a whole book on it for a reason.

[Jason Van Ruler]

I wrote a whole book on it, Yes. I could go for hours, trust me.

[Morgan Huelsman]

But I do want to know. This is kind of how I end my podcast and see what's heavy on your heart or whatever you kind of want to end us on. I give the floor over to you. It could be motivational, inspirational. It could be something that we just didn't mention yet that you feel like is really important to share. Kind of whatever you want to do, I give it over to you.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Oh, man. I've got a couple hours of content, so I'll just start. No, I'm just kidding you. I'm just kidding you. Here's what I always like to end with. If you're hearing this and you're thinking to yourself, yeah, but you don't understand Jason, or, yeah, but that's great for you guys, but that's not how it is for me. I just always like to encourage people because. And you did a great job. I haven't always been this guy. I've always dressed like a therapist. I've always thought like a therapist, but I've not always been a therapist, and I haven't always been a great communicator. And so what I would just tell you is there's a lot of hope if you're willing to do it different. And that's what I always say. Cause I think where I see people struggle the most is they just feel like they're stuck. And there's no version that's different than that. And so if you're listening today and you're like, yeah, but I'm just stuck, I just say, like, just take the first step. Just take one little step into that pool, and you don't have to jump in the deep end, but just learn a little bit. And what's on the other side of that is undoubtedly better than where you're at. So just like, to encourage people.

[Morgan Huelsman]

No, that's such a good point. And you mentioned the being stuck, and I think getting unstuck in various different ways. We've talked about it in a lot of different topics through this podcast. But just being stuck in what we feel is the hardest, darkest moments of our lives is some of the hardest to crawl out of. Right. You mentioned taking that first step and doing that is hard and uncomfortable and uneasy. But it's also. We talk about the grass is always greener on the other side. That is a situation where the grass is literally greener. If you could take one step.

[Jason Van Ruler]

I love that you're right. There are few like that. But that is literally true. There it is.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yeah, I was gonna say it doesn't ever actually happen. That analogy is worth saying, but I'm remembering today.

[Jason Van Ruler]

You just made it work. I like it. It is, in fact, greener. You just have to do the thing.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Yes, yes. And I think a lot of people need this. I think a lot of people want to deepen their connections. I think a lot of people don't want to be stuck. And if you're one of those people and you're just a little curious, then read Jason's book. I think it's a great starting place to understand yourself better. Peel was back some layers. Nobody else has to do anything. Just you. You just get sit and read a book. And learn some stuff, which I think is really awesome. So Jason, thanks for writing the book. Thanks for being here. It was really good to talk to you.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Oh thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. I appreciate it.

[Morgan Huelsman]

Jason's book Discovering your communication type is linked in the show notes if you'd like to do some personal exploration. Hopefully this helps you on your own path of communication. Because I don't know about you guys, but this loneliness epidemic has got to end. It's time. I'm so happy that you're here. Get subscribed so you don't miss the next episode in the series dropping next week. Or you can watch these episodes on YouTube at Webgirl Morgan or follow along on Instagram at Take this personally. I love you guys.

[Jason Van Ruler]

Bye.

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[Jason Van Ruler]

What do you mean?

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