Book Club: Let’s Talk About ‘John of John’

Summary

The Book Review Podcast: Book Club – Let’s Talk About ‘John of John’ (Aug 1, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of The New York Times Book Review podcast, host MJ Franklin is joined by editors Leah Greenblatt and Scott Heller to discuss Douglas Stuart’s new novel John of John. The episode is structured as a lively “book club,” exploring Stuart’s departure from his previous works, the vivid setting of Scotland’s Hebrides, themes of family, repression, and queer identity, and the novel's textured, emotionally resonant storytelling. The conversation artfully balances close reading, critical reactions, and broader literary context.

The discussion is split into spoiler-free and spoiler-filled sections, allowing listeners at various points in their reading journey to participate. The hosts also share community reader responses, notable quotes, and end with recommendations for books with similar themes or settings.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background on Douglas Stuart and ‘John of John’

Timestamps: [02:43]–[06:00]

• Douglas Stuart’s Literary Journey:

  • Stuart is a gay Scottish novelist whose debut, Shuggie Bain, won the Booker Prize after being rejected by 32 publishers.
  • He continued to work at Banana Republic while publishing, highlighting both his persistence and late entry into the literary world.
  • John of John is his third novel, following the acclaimed Shuggie Bain (2020) and Young Mungo (2022).

• Recurring Themes in Stuart’s Work:

  • Both earlier novels focus on young, gay protagonists and fraught relationships with alcoholic mothers in working-class Glasgow.
  • John of John marks a departure:
    • Aged-up characters and a focus on fathers and sons, not mothers and sons.
    • Set on the remote Isle of Harris in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland.

“He was certainly vindicated because that book came out... he won the Booker Prize. So talk about vindication.”
– MJ Franklin [03:57]

---

2. Novel Setup & Characters

Timestamps: [06:01]–[09:41]

• Plot Premise:

  • Cal (John Callum MacLeod), 22, returns home to Harris after struggling post-art school.
  • His family: estranged mother, strict and emotionally distant father (John), and a grandmother (Ella) with a rebellious streak.
  • Both Cal and his father are gay, though this is hidden and repressed, especially for John, the church deacon.

• Setting:

  • Conservative, Calvinist island life in the 1990s, where religion, tradition, and insularity dictate social norms.

“He’s Cal. So it’s John Callum ‘Cal’ MacLeod... How could you be more Scottish?”
– Leah Greenblatt [06:10]

---

3. First Reactions: Tone, Atmosphere & Characterization

Timestamps: [09:46]–[16:56]

• Authenticity vs. Contrivance:
  • Discussion about potential plot contrivances, but strong character work and atmospheric writing allow the story to feel emotionally true.

“Some things feel too convenient... but once you do, the emotional stakes are such that you really—at least I really—went with it.”
– Scott Heller [10:03]

• Vivid Setting & Social Texture:

  • The harshness and beauty of the Hebrides, the Calvinist church, and the joyless rigidity of island life—all sharply depicted.

• Gossip & Secrets:

  • The island is alive with gossip, secrets, and moral codes; every character harbors a secret.

“It also is juicy and gossipy in a way that you would think that this windswept island wouldn’t be giving you. And it does.”
– Leah Greenblatt [13:59]

---

4. Themes and Literary Analysis

Timestamps: [16:57]–[30:55]

• Parallel Isolation:

  • Both Cal and John live out parallel, unspoken lives, unable to communicate their truths even to each other.

• Battle With Environment vs. Self:

  • Cal’s struggle is against his environment and community; John’s is internal, a battle with shame and repression.

“I would say Cal’s story is his battle with his environment and John’s story is his battle with himself. And that tension of battle with yourself I found so electric.”
– MJ Franklin [25:14]

• Texture and Naturalism:
  • Stuart’s writing is lauded for its atmospheric “texture”—visceral, sensory details that immerse the reader in the landscape and emotional world.

“Texture. I’m glad we keep saying this word. Cause that’s what stands out to me.”
– MJ Franklin [34:07]

---

5. Character Highlights

Timestamps: [23:06]–[26:36]

• John (the father):

  • A taciturn, deeply repressed man struggling with his identity; communicates through the Bible, silence, and occasionally violence.

• Ella (the grandmother):

  • Schemer and truth-teller; intimately aware of everyone’s secrets and quietly manipulates events for the family’s benefit.

• Innes (John’s lover):

  • Patient, loving, but comes to seek self-respect and fulfillment beyond John’s emotional limitations.

• Supporting Cast:

  • Every minor character is richly drawn, often carrying hidden wounds or secrets.

“What makes a great novel is that the supporting characters have incredible humanity and depth as well.”
– Scott Heller [23:06]

---

6. Community Reader Responses

Timestamps: [19:33]–[22:10]

• Readers praise the immersive atmosphere, the painting of landscape and emotion, and the unforgettable characters.
• Many took an interest in Harris Tweed, sheep farming, and the unique rituals and hardships of island life.

“John of John is heartbreakingly sad and beautiful, and I can’t get it out of my mind... the writing. Stuart can’t write a bad sentence.”
– Book Club reader Pretzel14 [19:33]

---

7. Spoiler Section: Plot Developments & Resolution

Timestamps: [40:27]–[47:24]

• Key Plot Twists:

  • Cal and John’s storylines orbit but rarely collide directly; secrets accumulate.
  • Cal’s romantic heartbreak and a friend’s tragic death.
  • Social shaming of an unwed pregnancy, and the insular cruelty of the community.
  • John’s epiphany and (ambiguous) late attempt to reunite with Innes—the closest the book comes to a “romcom” climax.
  • Ella (grandmother) has always known the truth and supports in her subversive way.

• Reactions to the Ending:

  • Some panelists felt there were “a few too many” plot twists near the close, verging on melodrama, but most agreed the book’s quietness and interiority kept it emotionally honest rather than overwrought.

“For me, it worked... so much of this book is about what’s not said. Even as a lot is happening, there’s something so still interior and quiet about it.”
– MJ Franklin [46:41]

---

8. Language, Style, and Literary Context

Timestamps: [47:24]–[49:19]

• The musical and localized language is praised (“the soft smur of rugby short,” “a rickle of salvaged bricks”) for conjuring both poetry and realism.
• The writing balances beauty and hardship: “forbidding beauty... a Calvinist thread... restrained.”

---

9. Final Impressions & Notable Quotes

Timestamps: [49:21]–[51:14]

“It’s old-fashioned in the best ways.”
– Scott Heller [49:45]

“This is actually a pure pleasure as a read and was also real literature.”
– Leah Greenblatt [51:09]

• The novel is praised for pacing, character development, and its ability to satisfyingly explore both big themes and small details, leaving readers wanting more about the fates of its supporting cast.

---

10. Book Recommendations

Timestamps: [51:20]–[57:31]

The hosts suggest books for those moved by John of John:

• Tana French’s The Keeper: For its insular community and secrets
• Ross Raisin’s A Natural: A novel about a closeted soccer player in working-class England
• Alan Hollinghurst’s The Spell: Another late-’90s father-son gay British story
• Benjamin Wood’s Seascraper and Elizabeth O’Connor’s Whalefall: For island settings and coming-of-age isolation
• Carys Davies’s Clear: Scottish island, unlikely friendships and hidden desires
• Jane Austen’s Persuasion, Henry James’s Washington Square, Emily Brontë’s Wuthering Heights: For tales of love and duty denied
• Alejandro Varela’s The Town of Babylon and Brian Washington’s Memorial: Contemporary queer stories of homecoming and reckoning with the past

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

“Everybody on this island has a secret... Everybody’s hair is full of secrets.”
– Leah Greenblatt [14:15]

“It’s a book about saving your own life, basically, which I think is the oldest story in the world.”
– Scott Heller [29:21]

“My heart was sort of with Innes... He spent his whole life loving this man and waiting for him to love himself enough to love him the way that he thinks they can.”
– Leah Greenblatt [25:28]

“Stuart is a great writer of texture. I’m just a fan.”
– MJ Franklin [34:07]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:43] – Douglas Stuart’s background and how John of John fits into his oeuvre
• [06:01] – Plot setup and main characters
• [09:47] – First impressions and atmosphere
• [16:56] – Themes: family, repression, tradition
• [19:33] – Reader feedback and community responses
• [23:06] – Supporting characters and their depth
• [25:28] – Relationship dynamics: John/Innes, Ella’s role
• [30:55] – Texture and social context
• [40:27] – Spoiler section: second half plot, climaxes, revelations
• [46:41] – Debate on melodrama vs. subtlety in the ending
• [49:45] – Final impressions
• [51:20] – Recommendations for further reading

---

Closing

John of John is described as an immersive, textured exploration of queerness, shame, community, and self-realization on the margins. The panel lauds Douglas Stuart’s ability to render both landscape and emotion with “old-fashioned” literary richness and contemporary insight. While some found the final cascade of incidents fast or even soap-operatic, all agreed on the novel’s humanity, nuance, and artistry. The conversation’s warmth and detail make this episode especially rewarding for listeners—whether or not they’ve yet read the book.

---

Next Book Club Selection:
London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe (Discussion in August; see NYT for details)

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[Instagram Advertiser]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts

[MJ Franklin]

I wish I had a gavel so I can gavel us in because Friends Book Club is now in session. Hello and welcome to the Book Review from the New York Times. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review and the host of of the Book Review Book Club. Today.

[Leah Greenblatt]

I'm with Leah Greenblatt. I'm an editor on the Culture Desk and an alumnus of the Book Review.

[MJ Franklin]

Welcome back. And also with Scott Heller.

[Scott Heller]

I'm an editor on the Book Review and alumnus of the Culture Desk, actually.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Oh my God, we're Freaky Friday.

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

The reunions. The reunions. Welcome back to the Book Review podcast.

[Scott Heller]

It's great to be here.

[MJ Franklin]

This week we have convened to talk about John of John by Douglas Stewart. Leah, you had a fun name for this book club.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Oh, the Club of Clubs.

[MJ Franklin]

We called it the Club of Clubs. The Talk of talks to dive into John of John of John. And I'm glad you joined us. And the reason why we chose this book for our book club Book for July is because I'm selfish. I read this book earlier this year. I really, really loved it and I just wanted to talk to people about it. I'm excited to dive in and hear your thoughts about John of John. Before we do that, though, I have my typical admin notes. First, there will be spoilers in this episode. However, to keep this episode accessible to all, we're splitting it up. The first half will be spoiler free and the second half will be spoiler filled. We gotta talk about the book and the ending and where it goes and how it lands. That's a critical part of any book club discussion. But we know that there are still people coming to this book anew and we want to make sure that they can gain entry to this book club as well. So choose your own adventure. For first half, no spoilers. Second half, lots of spoilers. That's note number one. Note number two. At the end of this episode, we will reveal our August book club book. So stay with us to the end to find out what we're reading next. Without further ado, let's get started. I want to begin with some background. How familiar are both of you with Douglas Stuart? Like, how much did you know about him before reading John of John? What do we need to know about him?

[Scott Heller]

I mean, I knew a decent amount about him. I remember when Shuggie Bain came out and it was very much talked about as a terrific novel. And I was interested. I read it. It is a terrific novel. It's a kind of sad novel. I bought Young Mungo when it came out, which was the next one. That one I haven't read. I was a little worried that maybe I wasn't ready for another sad novel. But I was really glad to read this.

[MJ Franklin]

So you're at Two of Three. Two of Three, Two of Three. What about you, Leah?

[Leah Greenblatt]

I too, own Young Mungo, but have not yet read Poor Young Mungo.

[MJ Franklin]

I know.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Well, I must say, on the desk, we have to read so many books, and you don't always get to read the ones you want to for your leisure.

[MJ Franklin]

And that's what a book club's for.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Exactly. But no, I'm more of a Shuggie girl, I think, going in. And I love a midlife story like Douglas Stewart's where he. I believe he was like a head designer at Banana Republic.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Doing various sort of, like, big retail fashion sort of jobs. And was it 32American publishers rejected?

[Scott Heller]

I had read that story or something like that.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Seems insane.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Cause you read the first few paragraphs and you're like, boom.

[Scott Heller]

Yes, I agree. This guy's a writer.

[Leah Greenblatt]

He's a writer and he has a vision and a story to tell. That's so specific.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, he was certainly vindicated because that book came out. His first novel published in 2020. After 32 rejections and out the gate, he won the Booker Prize. So talk about vindication. You basically covered.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And he never left his job.

[MJ Franklin]

That I don't think I realized.

[Leah Greenblatt]

He was doing, like, mornings, nights and weekends writing while he was at Banana Republic.

[MJ Franklin]

Talk about Hustle.

[Leah Greenblatt]

I know.

[Scott Heller]

And this book I think I read, he started working on it before the other one came out, before Shuggie Bain came out. He was right.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

He had written Shuggie Bane. It was in the publication process, and he was like, I need to figure out what to do. And he started writing this one. But you basically Cover like all the things I was gonna say about Douglas Stuart. I am a Douglas Stewart superfan and completionist. I've read all. And so just taking through the notes. He is a gay Scottish novelist and John of Donna is his third novel, Shuggie. His debut came out in 2020. Young Mungo came out in 2022. So we've now had a little break before this third one. The thing that I wanted to say about the previous ones and why I wanted to start with this background is that those previous two books kind of tackle similar themes and have a similar dynamic. They each follow a young gay teenager, usually 14, 15, and his content, beautiful, painful, hard relationship with his alcoholic mother. That's the entirety of Shuggie Bane. And that's, I'd say, about half of Young Mungo. Young Mungo then adds this horrendous camping trip and then also a young love story with Mungo's neighbor. And so this book, John of John, is kind of a departure. We have aged up characters. Instead of mothers and sons, we have fathers and sons. We're in a new setting. Those previous books were in Glasgow. This is in on the Isle of Harris, which is in the Outer Hebrides in Scotland. So we've shaken things up, but now I'm starting to tease plot and I think let's just dive in to get started. Can someone give me a setup? What is John of John? What is this book?

[Leah Greenblatt]

The John of John actually never gets called John hardly at all in the book. Right. He's Cal. So it's John Callum Cal MacLeod. Who?

[MJ Franklin]

I think that's a name.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Right. I know. How could you be more Scottish? He's 22. He's just graduated from art school. Not a top tier art school by any means, but he went. He made it off his little island in the Hebrides and he's sort of coming home with his tail between his legs, you would say a little bit. He's been scrounging around, couch surfing, not found a lot of post college success. And his father informs him that his grandmother, his maternal grandmother, who lives with them, is not well because his mother has left his father many years ago and gone off with his brother, of all people. We learn sort of in bits and pieces. And so he doesn't have a super warm relationship with his dad. His dad is a deacon at their local church, which is Presbyterian, but very Calvinist, very sort of strict in every way.

[Scott Heller]

I think pleasure is not in the picture.

[MJ Franklin]

No.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And you're not having much fun on the Sabbath. And So he kind of walks into this very fraught situation on the island after being able to be out and gay in a city in Scotland. This is an indeterminate 1990s, maybe mid late 90s. From the musical references that we do.

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

Yes.

[Scott Heller]

I love them.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah, you kind of can patch it together. Yeah. As much as his father has raised him, they are not close, I would say, emotionally. And his dad also can be violent with him physically. And his grandmother is sort of a cozy grandma, but also a little bit of a rebel. She's.

[MJ Franklin]

She's a riot.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yes. And she doesn't speak Gaelic, which Cal's father weaponizes.

[MJ Franklin]

So then that's one half of the book. We have Cal coming home to this, like, conservative, strict house on the small, conservative island. Then we also get John's story. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Okay, so this is not a spoiler, I promise. But Cal is gay and so is John.

[MJ Franklin]

Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum twist.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Which, though, because he's this deacon in the church, obviously that is very, very, very suppressed on a need to know basis. And the only one who needs is his lover, Innes.

[MJ Franklin]

And then we say that that's not a spoiler because that happens at the

[Leah Greenblatt]

end of what, the second chapter. It's very early on, but the way that this whole island town knows it is that his wife just up and left him. So she's the hussy who ran away.

[Scott Heller]

They don't know about his sexuality. They just know that.

[Leah Greenblatt]

They just know.

[Scott Heller]

She split, basically.

[Leah Greenblatt]

She gave him grace. She let him preserve this idea that he's the wronged party. So to everyone, she's the one who ran away. She had a. A whole batch of children with his brother, his older brother. And so everyone thinks this poor noble man who's holding it down at the homestead, man of God. Yeah, He's a weaver, He's a sheep farmer. He's this stoic, just sort of getting through it. But in the meantime, he's been with this man who's a neighbor of his for decades.

[MJ Franklin]

So that is our stage. We have young gay art student come back home to be with his family. His family, which is the site of chaos and wreckage. He's trying to figure out how to fit back in in this environment that does not accept him. His chief antagonist is his father. Meanwhile, his father is hiding secrets of his own. And off to the races we go to get started the conversation. I'm curious. Top level picture. Vibe check. What did you think of the book? Did you love it? Hate it. Feel mixed. Connect with it. Just tell me. Tell me your top level thoughts about John O. John.

[Scott Heller]

I liked it a lot. I liked it a lot. Yeah, absolutely. I think I said to you, M.J. that in a certain way I didn't believe it and yet I still liked it. And there is something to that. I felt like if you break down the plot points, some things feel too convenient.

[MJ Franklin]

Tell me, like what?

[Scott Heller]

Well, I don't want to give away spoilers, but even the fact that the two of them are circling each other and don't see each other's sexuality and don't really clock it struck me as a little bit surprising, certainly for John's father. I think he may see something in Cal that he repudiates because he sees it in himself. But that Cal has a hard time that he seems to be oblivious to what's going on with his father. And in fact, that there are the parallel stories on what is a pretty small island struck me as it's a bit of a high wire act. It's a contrivance that you have to kind of accept and then move on. And once you do, the emotional stakes are such that you really. At least I really went with it.

[MJ Franklin]

I have a lot of follow up questions. My first is what helped you believe it? What helped you? What got you over that hurdle?

[Scott Heller]

Well, I think the characterizations are fantastic. I think the grandmother who you mentioned, I mean, there's something, there's like a battle, the battle between a father and a son is sort of familiar and you know those outlines. But the fact of the grandmother, she sort of knows the score and knows who this cast of characters and she's really able to cut to the quick with both of them. And also she's a little bit of a chess player and she sort of is making moving pieces around to make sure that they can find ways to stay in each other's orbit and not pull apart too hard.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And she has a secret. And she has a secret. Everybody in this book has a secret.

[Scott Heller]

Right, right. And the secrets are a big part of why you keep reading, no question about it. And not only are they on a rocky island, but they're at the end of the island, basically. So it's really an atmosphere where it's a pressure cooker atmosphere. And so the plot is really set in motion very effectively. And yet it's characters who are yearning so much and are so unable to express what they feel that really pull you in.

[MJ Franklin]

I was just like pulling out words that you were saying just now and like atmosphere, yearning. Yearning is huge in this book. And that emotional texture that got you, no question.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Leah? How did you feel about this book?

[Leah Greenblatt]

I was immediately sucked in. And I would love to read a little line from our fantastic review by Mark Herring.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, that was a terrific review where

[Leah Greenblatt]

he said that he feared this book would be, quote, the travails of stoic, simple people of the soil are trudgingly described in prose that smells of damp, wool and earnestness. And I think we all fear that wet cheap is gonna be our experience at this book.

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

They're there.

[Scott Heller]

They're there, though.

[Leah Greenblatt]

They are. And I think this absolutely demolishes your romantic idea of sort of like a gentleman farmer. It is a harsh life. And even just the descriptions of helping these youths give birth, like, very gnarly sort of stuff happens every day. And nature just sort of Mother Nature is ruthless, weather wise, animal wise. All of this stuff, the elements are so present and so harsh. They kind of strip away a lot. But then there's also people create these structures around things like religion to sort of stave off the reality that they're actually living in. And so much of the sort of social life of the island is shaped around people making these arbitrary rules for the way that they live and the morality that they live by. And that kind of controls everything. You know where Cal's dad is, this deacon in the church, and he feels so that that's so important to him. But then also, he's living against every tenant of the church, really.

[MJ Franklin]

So if I'm understanding correctly, you also had that similar fear that based on the setup, we'd get this hyper earnest thing. And it's the atmosphere that really pulled you in, is that. Am I understanding that correctly?

[Leah Greenblatt]

And it also is juicy and gossipy in a way that you would think that this windswept island wouldn't be giving you. And it does.

[Scott Heller]

Everybody knows each other's business. Everybody has an opinion about each other's business.

[MJ Franklin]

And everybody has a secret, as we pointed out.

[Scott Heller]

Everybody. Right? Everybody has a secret.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Everybody's hair is full of secrets.

[MJ Franklin]

So you would say, liked, loved, felt mixed. Where did you land?

[Leah Greenblatt]

I think I actually prefer this to Shuggie, in that it feels like less. It feels closer to real life. And I think it's interesting because the mother character for him and his other books is so enormous. And in real life, I think she died when Douglas Stewart was 16. So you understand why it shaped him so completely. But this feels more about the universal experience of being young and trying to rebel against your family and then the gravitational pull of home, you know, and the things you know and the things that you both love and hate, but the things that made you. Yeah, but, mj, how did you feel about this as our completist?

[MJ Franklin]

I love this one. I think it teased out of the top of the episode. I really, really loved this one. I realized that I love all of his books differently and with a different part of myself. Shuggie Bain is a punch in the gut. What that kid is dealing with and the way he paints the portrait of devotion and pain at the same time for this figure that's hurting you, that you can't let go. It's so sad and so beautiful. So for me, I love Shuggie Bain with my gut. Young Mungo because it has that sweeping young love story to it. You're like stumbling on first love. I loved that book with my heart. In this one, I loved with my brain. You're getting these two storylines. You have Cal and you have John. And one interesting thing to me about this book, and at first I think I was a little bit frustrated with, but now thinking about it, I really loved, is that they don't really weave together at all. Their stories are happening, in my opinion, in parallel, simultaneously. But it's.

[Leah Greenblatt]

So are their emotional lives, and so

[MJ Franklin]

are their emotional lives. But you're jumping back and forth between the storylines. You're trying to figure out how are they gonna come together. But it's not like Cal is trying to figure out how to come out to his dad and is really reliant on his dad. And it's not like John is trying to figure how does he tell his son that he's also gay and in this relationship. Instead, you're watching these two people in the same family go on similar journeys, completely isolated. And because of that, I feel like you're invited to compare and contrast and figure out what is Douglas Stewart doing with this book? What is he saying? What is he trying to explore? And I really enjoyed that. You have to. It's a different storytelling approach, and at first I felt a little bit unsettled by it.

[Scott Heller]

But did you find it emotionally distancing then?

[MJ Franklin]

I didn't. I didn't. I found because. Because, as you pointed out, like, the characters are so rich, they're so full. There's so much yearning and repression there that I felt really, really moved by. So I love the individual stories. And I think when I say frustrated, I was like, okay, yeah, eventually these characters are gonna, like, the storylines are gonna intertwine in these like very, very deep ways. And the storylines do touch on each other, but you're really watching these two stories happening in parallel and you're just, you're just thinking back and forth. You're seeing how they're foils for each other. And my brain just felt very active in addition to me feeling so deeply. But that's my and our top level thoughts. We're gonna dig in a little bit deeper, but first I think we should take a quick break.

[Instagram Advertiser]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts this podcast is supported

[Ollie Advertiser]

by Ollie, your wellness partner for all things back to school. Ollie supports moms with a lineup of expertly formulated women's wellness products like a multivitamin with essential vitamins and minerals to help keep her doing it all ish. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand and stock up on olli.com today. That's o l l y dot com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard Confessions.

[MJ Franklin]

My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Impressions Cut the bull, Spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign to earn. Save the conditions Apply.

[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. This is the Book Review from the New York Times. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm with Leah Greenblatt and Scott Heller, and we're talking about John of John by Douglas Stuart. Before we jump back to our conversation in the studio, I just wanted to read off some thoughts from our book club community about the novel Right now we have up an article headlined Book Club Read John of John by Douglas Stewart with the Book Review. Readers from over are sharing their thoughts there. Here are a few comments. Susan from Philadelphia writes, I almost stopped reading this book because nothing much happened in the first half. But suspecting the author was gathering his ammunition and setting the stage, I continued. I am so glad that I did, because the book took off like a stampede of horses. To me, the genius of this book is that it captures the small and the big community, landscape, history and politics. And it does all of that exquisitely. It made me want to learn more about Harris Tweed and the islands in which the novel is set. I even wanted to know more about the sheep that were raised by the family. Any one of the minor characters could have had an entire novel constructed just about them. I wanted to know more about each of them. So that is from a reader who is really immersed in it. Ellison from South Carolina raves, this is by far the best novel I have read this year. Readers are in for such a treat. And then a user named Pretzel, 14 writes, dawn of dawn is heartbreakingly sad and beautiful, and I can't get it out of my mind. I look at the clouds and colors of the sky differently now. Cal's sensitivity to the natural world around him astounds. I took a deep dive into the tradition of weaving Harris Tweed after finishing the book A Detour I recommend, but it is the characters Cal, John, Ella Innes, whom you will never forget, each bearing such pain and heavy secrets and the writing. Stuart can't write a bad sentence. He reveals the price and small joys of living in such a small and insular community. So those are just a few comments that I love, but there are a lot of readers sharing their thoughts, so continue the conversation. In the comments again, there's an article up headlined Book Club Read dawn of John by Douglas Stewart with the Book Review. But now let's go back to our conversation in the studio. Scott, when we were talking off mic, you said something that really captured why I was really anticipating this book, which is that third novels are tricky. Douglas Stuart had two previous books. They tackled similar themes. And now with this third one, I think readers are looking at him wondering where is he gonna go next? What's he gonna do? How's he gonna evolve? And to me, I think John of John is answers that in really fascinating ways.

[Scott Heller]

Another mother book would not have been a good idea, actually.

[MJ Franklin]

No, no.

[Scott Heller]

And I mean, let's face it, that's

[Leah Greenblatt]

for the therapist, not for the bookstore.

[Scott Heller]

And, I mean, I do think the young John character is a somewhat familiar character in a certain way, but it's the father, John, the father, who's really the amazing accomplishment in this book. And of course, Innes, who I think ends up being, like, in a certain way. That along with Ella, who's the grand. I mean, those are the characters who you feel are so richly drawn and soulful. And soulful, exactly. Tell me you feel for them so much, and they're not central characters. And yet what makes a great novel is that the supporting characters have incredible humanity and depth as well. And I felt that.

[MJ Franklin]

Tell me a little bit more about them. And you said Jon is a great achievement. Tell me more about those characters who you connected with. Why, what they're doing in the book.

[Scott Heller]

Well, John, the dad, I mean, the challenge is he doesn't speak. He's taciturn. He's a man of very few words. He is a man who'll turn to the Bible and to homilies and proverbs to express himself. Or his fists, and then his fists, of course. So that makes him very, very tough to. Kind of tough to care about, tough to understand. And yet, I think you do end up getting ins and inside his heart by watching him try to struggle with himself, really. And that's one of the accomplishments of the book, is watching that unfold and feeling it so deeply, even though it's not happening necessarily through things he's saying.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I say I completely agree with you? John was my favorite character. He was the character that I wanted to spend the most time with. When he was off stage, I was like, I wanna know what's happening in his storyline. And I think it's for just that exact reason. He's dealing with so much repression. He's dealing with intense shame. But he does have this beautiful love story. You said he doesn't speak or he speaks with his fists, but also he sings. That's this other thing. Like, he has these textures to him, this depth to him, where you're like, what a fascinating person. How are they gonna figure this out? And his story felt so different from Cal's story, which is like, how is he. Cal's story is more of a typical

[Scott Heller]

coming home, prodigal son sort of thing. Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

And for me, John's story was the one that felt so special and unique.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And he's allergic to wool. This poor man's whole life is based around sheep farming and weaving, and the fibers make him break out in terrible rashes.

[MJ Franklin]

And he's like, and this is my life.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah. Punishment is sort of, I think, the thing he thinks he deserves in all these aspects of his life.

[Scott Heller]

It's like wearing an air shirt or something.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Exactly.

[MJ Franklin]

I would say Cal's story is his battle with his environment and John's story is his battle with himself. And that tension of battle with yourself I found so electric. Which storyline did you feel most connected to, Leah?

[Leah Greenblatt]

My heart was sort of with Innys, I think. And Ella and I agree.

[MJ Franklin]

The side characters.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And there's. Yeah. Ella's the grandmother. Innys is the lover, the long suffering lover of John who is infinitely patient, but he's developing his backbone, as the story goes. And he is sort of. He spent his whole life loving this man and waiting for him to love himself enough to love him the way that he thinks that they can. And he knows the world is changing. Ella makes a reference to, like, I hear about it on my transistor radio. The boys are so fabulous in the city and they're having so much fun.

[Scott Heller]

That was a great one.

[Leah Greenblatt]

You know, she's aware that being gay

[Scott Heller]

is a gay culture.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah, there's a gay culture and there's a couple other characters that we haven't yet dug into. But Doll, who is the friend of Cal growing up, who was sort of like, I mean, how you're gonna be friends with, like, you gotta dance with the ones that brung you on this island. Like, there's very few opportunities for romance. For even when they want Cal to pick a woman, it's kind of almost like livestock. It's like, well, she's got good teeth, so why don't you marry that one? There's just. There's not this idea of romance and choice. And it's survival.

[Scott Heller]

Right. And servitude.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And survival and servitude on this island and sort of propagating as much as you need to to sustain and survive

[Scott Heller]

and have another generation take care of the property that you've killed yourself to keep alive and against really crummy weather conditions.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah. And they, you know, and they talk about. They talk a little bit about. Cal and John will work together on this weaving. Right. And you're not supposed to ever share a piece that you make for a factory. And it's supposed to come from one person. You're on the verge of when people started to fetishize craftsmanship. And to them it's just the life they've always known. This is like sett centuries of sort of tradition. But that world is disappearing also. People can go out and buy a synthetic Shetland sweater. But he talks about, I think this is also partly Douglas fashion background. He talks about how that's not the same, but they are sort of protecting an industry that's being overtaken by global trade and all these sorts of things. So there's all these different things at play on this tiny island that you would think is so far from anything important in the world, but actually is. It's a little bit of a sort of like a hothouse of all of these issues. And then again, I think it's great that it's set in the 90s because it gives you. It's modern times, but pre Internet connectivity. And there's a point where Cal is like, ugh, it's so lonely. And he looks in some listings and he finds like a guy. It's pen pals to correspond with. And I don't know how to say this on the. On the show without moving into territory we can't see.

[MJ Franklin]

Keep a PG13, Leah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yes, but a guy says, I basically I wanna know what your penis looks like. And he knits him and mails him

[MJ Franklin]

beautiful, idiosyncratic things that makes character feel real.

[Leah Greenblatt]

A little. A little penis cozy, essentially. Can I say that?

[Scott Heller]

We'll see.

[Leah Greenblatt]

We'll find out later. And obviously a few years later he would have been dialing up his AOL account and trying to reach out to the world that way.

[Scott Heller]

But up his AOL is sounding also like something we shouldn't be saying here, I have to say.

[Leah Greenblatt]

But in the moment, isolation is real, right? Ye.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leah Greenblatt]

In this place. And that will disappear very shortly.

[MJ Franklin]

So we've touched on a lot of themes. We've talked about these two characters, their parallel stories. We've talked about coming home, coming out, repression, work, a lost way of life, all of these things. I'm curious, what is it about this book that ultimately stands out to you?

[Scott Heller]

Well, I think it's what makes a book so successful is texture really. It's that it's operating at several levels at once and it's weaving them together in a way that feels. Doesn't feel.

[Leah Greenblatt]

They're all weavers.

[Scott Heller]

Yes, Weavers, Weavers. Weavers.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Weavers are weaving.

[Scott Heller]

It doesn't feel forced. And what is he doing with this book? I mean, I think it's a book about saving your own life, basically, which I think is the oldest story in the world. And also right up to the moment, it's something we all can relate to. It's set in a place that's very extreme feeling and there are strictures that are specific and I don't connect to. But the idea that you have to take action to make the life you want and that so many of us have such a hard time doing it. We may know in our head what it would take or what would satisfy us. But to actually take the steps is a lot harder. And what's interesting in this world is that the community largely isn't helping people take the steps to sort of become the people they are. But if you can find the people who can look after you a little bit, you might get that push. That's what makes it a little bit of a happier book, I think, than the other books too.

[MJ Franklin]

I would say. Also the Community. It's not just it's hard to find the supports in the community. I would say the community as a whole seems to be the hurdle, the challenge. The thing that really we see there's a storyline with a woman who may get pregnant out of wedding. You see how the community closes ranks and they're like, okay, this is the way things are done. And so how do you be yourself? How do you live a full life in such an environment? What about you, Leah? What stands out for you?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Well, it's interesting, I was talking to another editor on the culture desk who chose not to read this book because he said my impression of Douglas Stuart is it's the trope of the tragic homosexual who almost sort of like sacrifices himself on the altar of what's best for the community is for me not to come out or I don't follow my love. And mj, you were there too and we were arguing that actually that's not what Douglas Stuart is doing. Even though that is kind of the bones of it. But the way that this book goes, we've already sort of mentioned that John and Cal's parallel tracks don't meet for the vast majority of the book. And you think at some point maybe they'll converge much sooner than they do and there'll be a big reveal and then they'll have to sort of reckon with the fact that they both have these secret lives and that's not what happens. But also you don't have that sort of like Douglas Sirk 1950s melodrama thing of I shall die so that others after me can live their true lives. You get the satisfaction of someone actually maybe pursuing happiness and you don't get the full resolution of absolutely that.

[Scott Heller]

Definitely not.

[Leah Greenblatt]

But it is, I think a more hopefully and sort of self realizing story than that.

[Scott Heller]

But I mean there Is. And I don't know if this would count as a spoiler, but there is a crossroads where their lives do meet, and that's around Innes specifically. And we do need to talk about that.

[MJ Franklin]

I know.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Like, we need to talk about Kevin. We need to talk about Innis.

[Scott Heller]

Right.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, we're about to go into spoiler territory, but I have a question. Is there any last thing you want to say to our spoiler free friends? Anything that you want them to know about this book before we venture into spoiler territory?

[Leah Greenblatt]

I do love that there's this quote from Ann Patchett on the COVID that says, so immersive, so all encompassing, that I felt like I was living in it. Thanks to Ms. Taylor Swift. I was on news duty all 4th of July weekend, and I was tethered to my home. And I was literally sitting outside, right outside on my little patio in the middle of Manhattan. And I was in the Hebrides. I could smell the wet wool. I felt like he just so completely had me absorbed in these people who were sort of ordinary and flawed enough to feel like people who you could actually know. And I think it's the kind of thing that when it's done well, it can almost kind of cruise right by you. But when it's done poorly, you realize you see all the seams and you're like, oh, these people aren't real. They're little dolls that he's moving around on a stage, whatever. And Doug Douglas Stewart, to me, just has so much naturalism in his bones that it's fascinating to me. Cause he's, I think, in his late 40s, maybe around 50, to have come so late to being a novelist. It's not like he was, like, placing stories in the New Yorker or Plowshares or whatever. He wasn't doing any of that. He was making pants for you to wear to work at Banana Republic. And in the meantime, writing these incredibly just textured stories of what he knew and what he lived through to get to this life that he has. And he has been a New Yorker for many years. But you feel. You can smell Scotland.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah, texture. I'm glad we keep saying this word. Cause that's what stands out to me. I feel, thinking about his books, I feel like the concrete of Glasgow as this kid's trying to navigate it and go back home.

[Leah Greenblatt]

I feel those rooming houses that are unheated. You're like, oof.

[MJ Franklin]

You feel the soft weight of his mother, like, falling. You feel the gloom of it all, the grayness. There's a texture to it. And likewise for the emotions in the book. You feel the love and the tenderness. You feel this sense of hush and then these explosions. I think for me, Doug Stewart is a great writer of texture. I'm just a fan. What about you? Any things you want to say to our spoiler free friends?

[Scott Heller]

Now, I thought you were going to say he's a great writer of violence. Which is. Which is sort of, I mean, in a way true too. I mean, I've been thinking. I read the book again when I sort of said I was gonna come and talk about it. And I mean, it is striking. The moment when he's brutalized by his father relatively early on is just stunning. And I think the book wouldn't work if you didn't understand viscerally just how impossible reconciliation would seem. And I thought those scenes and the number of times that Cal is getting stitches or getting kind of re bandaged. And so. And it's sort of. That is the mix of pain and tenderness, right? Because he's bleeding and deeply hurt. And yet somebody is helping put him back together a little bit. And I thought that captures something very particular about Douglas Stuart.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Food is also uniformly terrible. Truly, you're like, how does everyone not have rage?

[MJ Franklin]

Wait, can I read a passage from the first scene where Cal is brutalized?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

So the background is that Cal has shown up to church and he's.

[Leah Greenblatt]

He looks very Kurt Cobain, right?

[Instagram Advertiser]

We should say.

[Leah Greenblatt]

He has this long bleached hair. He's wearing torn jeans, band T shirts. He's bringing the 90s to the island in a way that they do not approve.

[Scott Heller]

And he's been warned not to do that.

[MJ Franklin]

I mean, he's been warned not to do it.

[Leah Greenblatt]

So he doubles down and he shows

[MJ Franklin]

up late, which is important because his dad, remember, is the head of the choir. His dad is up there looking at the rest of the congregation. His son walks in with his Walkman, with his Walkman. And you can feel the tension. John is fuming. Afterward, they're driving home and John reaches over and just like decks him, punches him several times in the face. And Douglas Stewart writes, everything had gone a brilliant white. And he started to panic, to sob as the handle evaded his grasp. This is Cal trying to get out of the car. John caught a glimpse of his. His own reflection in the wing mirror. And he had to turn away. Now that the anger had gone. He didn't know what had possessed him. When he looked in the mirror, he saw a devil. And the devil wore his face without Looking at his son, he reached over his mother in law and opened the door for Cal and gave him a shove. And Cal tumbled out and into the day. Douglas Stewart's so good at taking these moments and prolonging them. Someone's trying to get out. Scrambled out of the car. John sees his own reflection. And the devil wore his face. And there's a kick, this tense moment. And then Cal tumbles away. He's so good at writing violence, at writing those scenes and the emotional interiority of those.

[Scott Heller]

But it's also in that scene you're actually coming to feel for John in a sense, because he's seeing how he's seeing what a devil he can be. And so you're understanding his own sense of what, that he knows he's done wrong. Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And how he's sublimating his shame over and over and over. Because the shame in him is like the central wound, I think. Right.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

It seems that he would give almost anything to not be what he is. Ennis is essentially like, I can make us a beautiful little life here and you can keep your privacy because people do kind of like room together. Two old bachelors.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Right.

[Scott Heller]

They talk to people on the island.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah. There's all these kind of ways to have like a fig leaf of a cover. Like people may know, but they don't have to talk about it. So he's not saying, you have to be out with me and we have to throw the only pride parade on the island. He's giving him an opportunity to meet somewhere in the middle. And even that for John is too much.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah. How is he gonna navigate it? That is for part two. But first, I think we should take a quick break.

[Instagram Advertiser]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus, time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

this podcast is supported by Nirtek ODT Remedipant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but Migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in takes your time and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nirtech. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura. In adults, Nirtech can provide pain relief in two hours hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nirtech is right for you because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nirtek odt. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is not. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NERTECH or visit nertech.com all right, back to your podcast.

[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. And now let's dive into the second half of the book. Our spoiler section begins. I'm just gonna recount what happens. So the main thing in the second half of the book, as we begin to watch several, several, several, several relationships crumble, I'm gonna flash through several plot points. John goes to the mainland, where it turns out he has a second relationship with another man. Cal goes on a work trip with Ennis and comes onto Ennis, which Ennis turns down. But then they're back home and John sees Cal wearing one of Ennis's shirts. And it's this great dramatic moment. Cal has been having a fling with one of his friends since they were teens. They go to this concert and Cal, who pines for this man, watches this man hook up with an who's the proprietor of the inn that they're staying at. And Kao is heartbroken. Later on, that friend gets really, really wasted and drowns. One of Kao's other friends dry drowns,

[Leah Greenblatt]

which is something I learned is a thing.

[MJ Franklin]

What is. Can you remind me what that is?

[Leah Greenblatt]

His lungs have been filled, probably from being in the water, but he dies on dry land and they realize his liver is already swollen. This is also about denying who you are. This poor guy. Doll, oh doll. He's the only boy in the family and he has to be on the boat. He becomes an alcoholic, but he's in his early 20s and he's already a complete alcoholic.

[MJ Franklin]

It's really sad.

[Leah Greenblatt]

He's in rapture and just sort of a terribly sad story.

[Scott Heller]

I mean, he's the road not taken. If Cal had stayed.

[Leah Greenblatt]

If you deny everything that you so

[MJ Franklin]

we get that Storyline Another one of Cal's friends gets pregnant. Dahl's sister Dahl's sister gets pregnant. The entire town first thinks it's Cal's and then they try to shame Cal and to be like, you have to marry her. And then they realize it's not Cal'. This woman is like just a cast out of this town. Basically, she is the great shame of this town. Innis gets fed up with John's indecision and leaves to go live a full life elsewhere. Cal sees Jon crying over Ennis's departure and realizes that, quote, Cal couldn't ever recall his father crying over his mother. These tears were not how men cried for their friends. His father loved Ennis and Ennis had loved his father. From this, all the other troubles in their lives had followed. He felt the old iron clippers heavy in his hands. So Cal epiphany.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Finally we wait several years, several hundred pages.

[MJ Franklin]

Cal's looking at his dad and he's like something gay is happening here. He also realizes he can never talk to his dad about this homosexuality that they share because his father is so repressed. And the book ends with John rom com moment.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And Ella knew the whole time. Ella knew the whole time because her daughter.

[MJ Franklin]

Yep. Saw them.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Right.

[Scott Heller]

Her daughter saw them together, right?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Ennis and John together years and years ago and as we mentioned, gracefully left him without exposing him.

[MJ Franklin]

Yep. And then John realizes that he doesn't want to be without Ennis and so he races after Ennis. He is trying to catch the boat to find Ennis. Full rom com and it's question is Ennis still there? Is Ennis still waiting? You don't know.

[Scott Heller]

Cause Cal makes the phone calls, yeah, Caleb's best and says is there an awkward guy out there who looks like

[Leah Greenblatt]

he needs waiting for.

[MJ Franklin]

And he turns to his dad, he's like go to him.

[Leah Greenblatt]

But even then they have to keep up with the pretense of a certain sort of ruse where he realizes that that to say it too barefaced to his father will sort of collapse the whole thing that his dad can't quite confront that. So he kind of has to play it as you have to go get your friend totally straight reasons it's for work for the most hetero reasons. But I think but there's so much kindness in that because his dad has really hurt him physically, emotionally and obviously is not ever maybe gonna get there in his own life a full acceptance of either of them. But he sees the window and he takes the opportunity.

[MJ Franklin]

So then my question with all of this that has just happened. What do you make of the ending? We talked about the atmosphere. We talked about the setup. This book goes places in the second half. What did that do to your reading experience?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Oh, and he gives away all his money. No.

[Scott Heller]

Right. The money that Ella has given him. That's right.

[Ollie Advertiser]

Ella is gonna.

[Leah Greenblatt]

She's been skimming from the church.

[MJ Franklin]

Again, total right of her character, Ocean's Eleven.

[Leah Greenblatt]

But Ocean's One.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah. Gives Cal all of his money to go make a life for himself. And Cal says, you know, I'm gonna stay here. And he gives money to his friend who's been ostracized by this town for her to save her life. What do you make of it?

[Scott Heller]

It's a lot. It was a lot and a lot.

[MJ Franklin]

Like, too much. A lot. Like I was there for it. You're making a face. Talk to me, Scott.

[Scott Heller]

No, it was. It's a lot, like, maybe a little too much, but I was still very. That's what I would say. Yeah. I would say maybe one too many twists in the last 10 pages, but it doesn't make me give up on this book. I still am a fan of this book. Absolutely. Yeah. Did you feel. What did you think?

[MJ Franklin]

I didn't realize just how much happened until I was.

[Scott Heller]

It sounds even more over the top than it reads, I think. But there's a lot of incident, no question about it.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

It doesn't torque the way that the Ian McEwan did. Where you go, oh, now reconsider everything you knew.

[Scott Heller]

Right. He's not playing those games. I agree with you.

[Leah Greenblatt]

It's not doing that. And it's kind of. It has made you wait very patiently for all of these revelations. And so they do seem like a little bit of a pile up at the end. But it's still. I don't know how he managed to not make it feel like a melodrama or a soap.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I tell you, I have a theory about this? Oh, Scott, you think it feels like a melodrad feel?

[Scott Heller]

A little bit melodrama?

[Leah Greenblatt]

A little soapy soap?

[Scott Heller]

A little bit, yeah.

[Ollie Advertiser]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

Just because of the sheer number.

[Leah Greenblatt]

There were some bubbles in that bath.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

Is it because of the sheer number or how it was played? What made it feel so big?

[Scott Heller]

It's just a little. Too much is happening right at the end. I felt a little. A little bit. And partly it's because what I love about the book are the set pieces that are quieter or that play out a little more slowly. And so, yes, a little too many twists and turns.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I. For me, it worked. And I was trying to figure out, like, why didn't it feel like melodrama? My theory of why it worked for me is because so much of this book is about what's not said. Absolutely none of these moments are like. And then bum, bum, bum. He realized. And he said to his dad, dad, like, there's no big burst of catharsis. They're all played quietly. Cal realizing internally, we're walking out and seeing his dead friend. And like, there's something. Even as a lot is happening, there's something so still interior and quiet about it. And I think for me, that's what prevented it from feeling like melodrama. What did you think, Leah? What did you think of the ending overall?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Well, it's funny because I just. I realized there was something I wanted to say about the way that Douglas Stewart writes in his language because I was taking little notes in my iPhone notes and everything autocorrected to a different word because it doesn't recognize so many of the words that he uses. And I wrote a few of them down in the first couple pages. He talks about the soft smur of rugby short.

[Scott Heller]

I love that moment.

[Leah Greenblatt]

You know, a fairy is chattering across the water, a rickle of salvaged bricks. And I think we have this way of being like, oh, the Irish and the Scots, they're so melodious, you know, and we turn them into lucky charms or whatever. But he really does have a beautiful musical way of writing, but also exploring these very harsh, exposed elements of this place that doesn't. That has a lot of beauty, but very forbidding beauty. And it's sort of in this way that Mother Nature is giving you all this, but also doesn't care what happens to you will dash you against the rocks, whatever it is. But I love that he found this poetry in the writing without it feeling like too much.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Because he does sustain a sort of subtlety. And there is a Calvinist thread kind of running through the whole thing of. It's restrained. Yeah. And I thought I did. My mind does tend to go to movies a lot, especially when a book is this cinematic. And I definitely was thinking banshees of Inisherin.

[MJ Franklin]

Oh, yes.

[Scott Heller]

Yes.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And in the kind of friendships and the things between men that are unspoken.

[Scott Heller]

With Colin Farrell. Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And then you're always like, ah, sheep in the road. So these sort of elements and the eccentrics that populate a small place and the way that people sort of get so involved in many unspoken ways in each other's lives when you don't have all these outside distractions in entertainment. And the stakes are so high. So I just wanted to pause and take a little break for his language.

[MJ Franklin]

Let's give flowers his language.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

I feel like we could talk about this novel truly all day. And we've talked about it for a while. Before we go to our next segment though, recommendations I just to want. What's your last word on this book? What's a thing that you want readers to know about John of John? This can be something we haven't gotten to or it can be just reinforcing something you've already said. But this is like your. Tell me one thing. If I'm coming up to you on the street and I say, Scott, tell me one thing about John of John, what would it be?

[Scott Heller]

It's old fashioned in the best ways, period.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that. What about you, Leah?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Sometimes I think you're page watching a little bit when you're reading.

[Scott Heller]

Yes.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And that just completely disappeared for me with this. I think It's. Is it 400 pages or.

[MJ Franklin]

That's a good point.

[Scott Heller]

Something like that.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah. And it never felt. I think it's so beautifully paced. Even though I did expect more revelations. Oh my God, it's exactly 400. I did think some revelations would come up much sooner. And it's hard when it's an omniscient narrator where you know the secret and you're kind of just waiting for these reveals. But I felt so rewarded by my reading of this and I didn't even feel like I had to be that patient. And if anything, I think, you know, it's a good book when you really want the follow on how everybody ended up. I wanted to know where Isla's story ended. She was the one who had the baby boy. Where Cal went.

[Scott Heller]

What do we think of where Cal went?

[Leah Greenblatt]

I think he went to New York and started working at Banana Republic. But there actually was a moment in the book where I was like, oh God, is Cal gonna stay? And I don't want him to sacrifice himself on the altar of this sort of dysfunction and this sort of cave of secrets that everybody has decided to agree to. But yeah, I just, I think this is actually a pure pleasure as a read and was also real literature.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, that's what I meant by old fashioned in the old ways.

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[MJ Franklin]

Took the words out of my mouth. Well, with that I think let's pivot to some recommendations.

[Scott Heller]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

I want to know what would you recommend readers pick up after they've read John of John, this could be for whatever reason, maybe it's another tumultuous family story. Maybe it's another story set on a Scottish island. Maybe it's another father son story. Up to you. But I want to know, what would you recommend readers pick up next?

[Scott Heller]

I thought about it. One book that we had read relatively recently that I thought was. Reminded me of this, and I was starting to confuse some of the scenes in a good way, was Tana French's the Keeper, which is really about another book about a very insular community. Not as insular as this one, but a place in which gossip and secrets and how they're revealed and traded really, really shaped the lives of the characters.

[MJ Franklin]

That's an excellent recommendation.

[Scott Heller]

Thank you. And it has a mystery to this one. But what's special about it are the personal relations and the way neighbors are always looking over the wall to see what's going on in the house next to. So that was one and then the other one. One other one is a book that the World cup is happening right now, so maybe soccer is on my mind. But it's a book called A Natural. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I know. And a lot of people don't know it and I don't remember how I came across it, but it's by a

[Leah Greenblatt]

guy who's so sporty. That's why.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, right. He has a great. His name is Ross Reason. I know. I knew Leo would like that. And it's a book. It's a book of. About a closeted soccer player in kind of working class England who is in a kind of closed environment where it's impossible to come out. And yet he slowly is trying to figure out how. And it's definitely. There are parallels to this.

[MJ Franklin]

I need to go check that out.

[Scott Heller]

It's a good book.

[MJ Franklin]

What about Yulia? What recommendations you got?

[Leah Greenblatt]

Gay Father, Son. British literature strikes twice.

[Scott Heller]

Right.

[Leah Greenblatt]

The spell with what I was thinking

[Scott Heller]

of, the spell is one of the ones I've never seen.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yeah. 1998. And it's like a very entangled. He was married to a woman, had the son and then comes out. And this is also set in the late 90s when AIDS is still very much present and also in terms of sort of like soapy crisscrosses of lovers and rivals. So it made me think of that. I would say it's like a minor Hollinghurst because it's not one of those bricks that he put out. It's not Line of Beauty. It' the Stranger's Child.

[MJ Franklin]

It's like Our Evenings, which was a book club book, is also huge.

[Leah Greenblatt]

It's like a ton. Yeah. He tends to write so big. And this was a smaller novel in most ways, but I think a really interesting parallel to that sort of storyline. And then there was two books in the last couple years that were about young people stuck on little islands somewhere in the outer reaches of the United Kingdom. One of them was Benjamin Woods Seascraper, which I reviewed for us, which was long listed for the Booker election. And the other One was Elizabeth O' Connor whale fall from two years ago. And they're both under or around 200 pages. So if you want to bite off a smaller chunk of something, but just these really beautiful, thoughtful and unexpected takes on coming of age in a very, very, very traditional hidebound place that sort of is. Everything is predicated on isolation, tradition, honoring your parents, that kind of stuff. But then, like, you have different dreams.

[Scott Heller]

Okay, good.

[MJ Franklin]

I love these.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, those are great.

[MJ Franklin]

Conclusion one, I wanna piggyback. That's similar to Whalefall is Clear by Carys Davies, which set on a small skydish island. There's a man who.

[Leah Greenblatt]

These islands are hopping.

[Scott Heller]

I know, I know, I know.

[MJ Franklin]

Islands are the place of drama, sheep and drama. This one's about Clear is about a man who's sent to evict the last person on the Scottish island, and he has a terrible accident. And the man who's left who's been living there, nurses the person who's come to evict him back to health, and they start this friendship that develops to something a little bit more that is

[Leah Greenblatt]

not an English patient.

[MJ Franklin]

I also thought of, Oddly, when I think of this book, John of Dawn, the phrase just the politics of the closet kept coming out. I feel like this is a book that's not like I'm in the closet. I'm trying to figure out how to come out. This book is like a examination of what happens when you stay there. And that made me think of, Oddly, three. Three classics. It made me think of Wuthering Heights, Persuasion by Jane Austen and Washington Square by Henry James. All of them are about what happens when you deny your feelings, your love for social expectations, and the calamity that ensues because of it. So those are randomly the first things that came to mind.

[Scott Heller]

I think Jacques Stewart would be happy to hear that.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Don't you love what a sort of Rorschach this is, though? Because we all thought of such vastly different books and I hooked onto the island aspect and, like, you went with forbidden love Got one with sports, as

[Scott Heller]

always, as I always do, because as

[Leah Greenblatt]

we discussed, he's our Sporty Spice.

[MJ Franklin]

I also thought of two others, or a few others. There's the Town of Bowser. Babylon by Alejandro Varela.

[Scott Heller]

I remember reading about that.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Scott Heller]

Is it good?

[Podcast Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

It's about this guy who comes back home. He's a gay man. He comes back home for his high school reunion.

[Scott Heller]

Long Island.

[Leah Greenblatt]

An island again, Right?

[Scott Heller]

Right, Exactly. I think Babylon. Long island, isn't it? I think so.

[MJ Franklin]

I don't remember if that's the Babylon.

[Scott Heller]

I think so. Yeah.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Which is also the last stop to Fire Island. Right.

[Scott Heller]

There you go.

[Leah Greenblatt]

This is why I'm excited to hear Leah metaphor.

[MJ Franklin]

But it's about him thinking about this past relationship that he had in high school and whether to rekindle and all of that good stuff. And it's about reckoning with a love denied. And then the last one was Brian Washington's books, which are all about homecoming. My favorite is Memorial. But, like, thematically, I think all of his books touch on this idea of like.

[Leah Greenblatt]

And a strong mother figure.

[MJ Franklin]

Strong mother figure, tough family situation. Like gay men figuring out relationships, how to be themselves. There's a hush and an isolation to them. Again, Memorial is my favorite, but I don't think you can go wrong with any.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Before we go, I think there is a lot of room for people in this book who maybe Shuggie was a little too much. Almost like poverty porn for them, or just too devastating. And the kind of. The bleakness and the sort of. This is a. More. Even though it has all these harsh elements, it's a more pastoral book. It's a.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

More.

[Leah Greenblatt]

It's a different feeling.

[MJ Franklin]

Pastoral is a perfect word for it. Friends, that unfortunately, is all the time we have today. Thank you so much. This was really fun.

[Scott Heller]

Oh, you're welcome. It was great. It was really great.

[MJ Franklin]

Able to turn such a heartbreaking little book into such a lively, fun conversation.

[Leah Greenblatt]

Yes, our club of clubs for John of John.

[MJ Franklin]

And thank you to everyone who read with us this month. Again, keep up the conversation. We have an article up on the New York Times headline Book Club read John of John by Douglas Stewart with the Book Review. Continue the conversation there. And as promised, the title of our August book. In August, the Book Review Book Club will be reading London Falling by Patrick Ren. We will be talking about the book online. Right now up on the New York Times, there's an article headline Book Club Read London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe with the Book Review we will also be talking about the book on the podcast that airs on August 28th. We hope you'll join us. And until next time, happy reading.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

[MJ Franklin]

My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Impressions Cut the bull Spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.