Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Catch,' by Yrsa Daley-Ward

Summary

The Book Review Podcast: Book Club Episode Summary

Episode: Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Catch,' by Yrsa Daley-Ward
Release Date: July 25, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: MJ Franklin, Jen Harlan, Sadie Stein
Title: The Book Review by The New York Times

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Introduction

In this episode of The Book Review Podcast, hosted by Gilbert Cruz, the New York Times Book Review team delves into their monthly book club selection: The Catch by Yrsa Daley-Ward. Hosted by MJ Franklin, the discussion features fellow editors Jen Harlan and Sadie Stein, who explore the intricacies of this multifaceted psychological thriller.

Book Synopsis

MJ Franklin opens the discussion by describing The Catch as a "psychological thriller, a grief novel, a tale of sisterhood," among other genres. She emphasizes the book’s complexity, highlighting its experimental and metafictional elements that challenge readers' perceptions.

Sadie Stein provides a detailed synopsis: The Catch follows twin sisters Clara and Dempsey Dempsey in their 30s, living in London. Clara is a successful novelist and influencer, while Dempsey leads a more isolated life working in data entry. The plot thickens when Clara believes she has spotted their long-missing mother, Serene, leading to a series of enigmatic events that intertwine reality and illusion.

Jen Harlan adds depth to the synopsis by explaining Serene's intrusive role in Clara's life, stating, "she becomes Clara's manager, essentially, she becomes her stylist, she becomes her roommate, and she begins to take control of every part of her life" (05:15).

Initial Reactions and Reading Experience

MJ Franklin shares her personal experience, describing the book as "both hypnotic and challenging" and commending its ambition and innovative storytelling. She notes the complexity of the protagonists, portraying them as "compelling but unlikable," which sets the stage for rich discussion.

Jen Harlan praises the book club choice, particularly appreciating the use of unreliable narrators. She mentions, "there are not one, not two, but three unreliable narrators lying to themselves" (09:23), which adds layers of ambiguity and intrigue to the narrative.

Sadie Stein echoes similar sentiments, highlighting the book’s ability to keep readers engaged despite its disorienting and wild twists. She describes the book as "a puzzle box," constantly revealing new layers that keep her invested until the very end.

Reader Comments and Community Insights

MJ Franklin shares insightful reader comments from the New York Times community:

• Simon from Durham and Tokyo calls the book "unforgettable" and compares its impact to "a river in flood, smashing through the levees of social and literary convention."

• Jillian from Colorado appreciates the book’s entertainment value but admits to getting "lost in the soup of the non-linear narrative."

• Jeanne from Rockford, Michigan connects deeply with the book’s exploration of grief, stating, "the experience of grief and how it can change you and your relationships" (16:00).

• Kylie from Dallas resonates with themes of identity and motherhood, noting, "the realness of character experiences that I could relate to being a biracial and transracial adoptee" (16:00).

Exploration of Themes

The discussion shifts to the prominent themes in The Catch:

1. Beauty and Self-Perception:

   • Sadie Stein points out the sisters' disconnection from their physical bodies, with Clara undergoing cosmetic procedures and both sisters displaying body dysmorphia.
   • MJ Franklin adds that the book intertwines dysmorphia with dissociation, particularly in the context of grief.

2. Grief and Mental Illness:

   • The novel delves into the complexities of grief, manifesting in the sisters' strained relationship and their struggle to connect with each other.
   • Jen Harlan highlights Clara's diagnosis with borderline personality disorder, adding another layer to her unreliable narration (32:21).

3. Sibling Relationships:

   • The bond between the twin sisters is portrayed as both toxic and deeply loving. Sadie Stein shares her favorite line from the book: "I love her, but I hate her" (21:56), encapsulating the complicated dynamics typical of sibling relationships.

4. Metafiction and Storytelling:

   • The book employs metafictional techniques, with Clara writing a novel within the novel that mirrors her and her sister’s lives. This creates a blurred line between fiction and reality, enhancing the psychological thriller aspect.

Major Plot Twists and Spoilers

MJ Franklin provides a spoiler-filled recap of the latter half of the book, revealing that Serene is a ghost influencing the sisters' lives. The twist involves time loop paradoxes where the sisters must prevent a meeting that could erase their existence, culminating in multiple possible endings.

Jen Harlan finds the twist satisfying as it ties together various plot elements and themes, mentioning, "it explained a few things" (28:30).

Sadie Stein expresses mixed feelings about the abruptness of the twist but appreciates the book’s ability to keep readers guessing until the end.

Thematic Implications of the Twist

The twist not only serves as a pivotal plot device but also deepens the novel's exploration of grief and storytelling. MJ Franklin interprets the multiple endings as an embodiment of the uncertainty and complexity of processing loss, aligning with Daley-Ward's own experiences with grief.

Jen Harlan suggests that the list of possible endings reflects the author's experimentation with narrative forms, indicating a meta-commentary on the nature of storytelling itself (33:45).

Character Development and Side Characters

Sadie Stein brings attention to the side characters, particularly Dr. Raina Pinelli, the grifter therapist who manipulates Dempsey. She discusses how these characters represent various forms of exploitation and betrayal, adding depth to the novel’s critique of trust and authority.

MJ Franklin connects these character dynamics to the overarching theme of the sisters being perpetually hurt and taken advantage of, emphasizing the tragic elements of their journey towards mutual support (42:20).

Recommendations and Pairing Books

In the final segment, the hosts recommend books that complement the themes and styles of The Catch:

1. Other Black Girl by Zakiya Delilah Harris

   • Explores workplace dynamics and mysterious twists in a publishing house setting.

2. The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson

   • A gothic novel with psychological depth and supernatural elements.

3. Grief is the Thing with Feathers by Max Porter

   • An innovative exploration of grief through narrative poetry and metaphor.

4. The Furrows by Namwali Serpell

   • A novel intertwining multiple narratives and versions of events to depict grief and loss.

5. Dead in Long Beach, California by Vanita Blackburn

   • Combines science fiction with personal tragedy, exploring identity and loss.

6. The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett

   • Delves into themes of identity, race, and family dynamics.

7. Dead in Long Beach, California by Vanita Blackburn

   • A crime thriller with experimental narrative techniques.

Conclusion

MJ Franklin wraps up the episode by announcing the August book club selection: Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey, promising another engaging and twist-filled narrative. The hosts express their enthusiasm for ongoing discussions and invite listeners to continue the conversation online.

Jen Harlan and Sadie Stein thank the listeners and fellow editors for their insights, emphasizing the enriching experience of dissecting a complex novel like The Catch together.

Final Quote: "The thing about destiny. She comes and it comes and we come around." (43:49) – MJ Franklin

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of The Catch, unpacking its layered narrative, complex characters, and profound themes. Whether you're a fan of psychological thrillers, metafiction, or deep character studies, the Book Review Podcast provides a thoughtful and engaging analysis to enhance your reading experience.

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Timestamps:

• 05:15 – Jen Harlan on Serene's role
• 09:23 – Discussion on unreliable narrators
• 16:00 – Reader comments on grief and identity
• 21:56 – Favorite line: "I love her, but I hate her"
• 28:30 – Jen Harlan on the twist's satisfaction
• 33:45 – Metafictional elements and multiple endings
• 42:20 – Character dynamics and exploitation
• 43:49 – Final quote by MJ Franklin

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the podcast transcript provided and serve as reference points for notable discussions and quotes.

Transcript

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[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. On this week's episode, our monthly book club discussion hosted as always by MJ Franklin, he and his guests are discussing a psychological thriller titled the Catch. Mj, over to you.

[MJ Franklin]

Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about the Catch, the debut novel by the poet and memoirist Yrsa Daily Ward. The Catch is many things at once. It's a psychological thriller, a grief novel, a tale of sisterhood. It peeks into publishing and it poses ideas of isolation and care. It's also experimental and metafictional and completely mind bending and mind boggling. It's a book that makes you think. There is a lot here. I need to talk to someone about this because I want to make sure I even understand what is going on. And that is exactly what we're here to do. Talk about it amongst friends. Speaking of joining me in the studio to talk about the Catch are two voices that you know and love, both fellow editors here at the Book Review. First, we have Jen Harlan, who you may remember from our conversation about Orbital at the beginning of the year. Welco welcome back Jen.

[Sadie Stein]

Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited to dig into this book.

[MJ Franklin]

There's a lot to dig into. Also with us is Sadie Stein, who last joined the book club to discuss Play World by Adam Ross a few months ago. Sadie, welcome.

[Jen Harlan]

Thank you. I'm very excited to talk about this one.

[MJ Franklin]

And before we dive into the conversation, you know the drill. We have a few admin notes up top. First, at the end of the episode we will reveal our August book Club book, so stay with us until the end to find out what we're reading next. And second, there will be spoilers in this conversation, there are so many twists and turns that number one, I don't even know what's real to even spoil. But then two, that is to say, we can't talk about this book without revealing something from the start. So to keep this accessible, we are going to keep the first half of this conversation spoiler light. Again, there may be some foundational plot setup, spoilery info, things that we mention, but we will save the big twists and the second half of the book to the second half of the conversation. So choose your own adventure, listen to the whole episode, listen to the first half and then pause for the second half, listen to none of it and go read the book and then come back to us. Up to you. But consider this your spoiler alert and without further ado, let's dive in to get us started. Can someone tell us a brief elevator pitch synopsis? What is this book about? What is the catch about?

[Sadie Stein]

I can take this one. So, as MJ mentioned, this book is a psychological thriller about twin sisters Clara and Dennis Dempsey, who are in their 30s, living in London. Clara is a very successful novelist who has just had this autofictional book that has come out and made a big splash. She's a motivational speaker, influencer, and then Dempsey is more isolated, she's socially awkward, she does data entry for a medical foot health clinic. And when the sisters were babies, their mother disappeared. She went missing, is presumed to be dead, and the sisters were separated and adopted by different families. They were for a lot of their childhood and now in adulthood they have this kind of strained relationship. And one day Clara sees a woman in London who appears to be their mother at the same age she was when she disappeared, which is the same age the twins are now. She thinks that this is their mother who has come back. Dempsey isn't so sure. And it sets off this cascading series of events that takes them through wild twists and turns in London, none of which I will give away quite yet.

[MJ Franklin]

I think that was a beautiful synopsis, Sadie. Is there anything that we should add?

[Jen Harlan]

Gosh, hard to add to that. It was quite comprehensive. I guess the only thing I'd say is that when they do encounter the figure who may or may not be their mother of their same age, she immediately gets involved in their lives in a way which is both a dream and a nightmare. She becomes Clara's manager, essentially, she becomes her stylist, she becomes her roommate, and she begins to take control of every part of her life.

[MJ Franklin]

It's really sinister and eerie and yet.

[Jen Harlan]

A Dream for someone who's been longing for an absent mother her whole life.

[MJ Franklin]

And then I also just wanted to mention quickly the metafictional aspects. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that even is.

[Jen Harlan]

Is.

[MJ Franklin]

We've teased it a little bit.

[Sadie Stein]

Great point. So, as I mentioned, Clara is an author. She has written, shortly before the book starts, this bestselling novel called Evidence, which we could talk about that title, Signpost.

[MJ Franklin]

Signpost like Flashing Light.

[Sadie Stein]

Which is, as we learn from the commentary from people at her book events, many of which we witness in the book, a sort of in itself metafictional, possibly fantasy, possibly autobiographical book. The story of what happened to her and Dempsey and to their mother. She has changed most of the names, but the story itself, he's very closely to what happened in their life. And you actually have chapters of Evidence that appear throughout the novel. The catch, which fill in some of the details of what might be Serene's story.

[MJ Franklin]

And yeah, weird stuff happens. Like a chapter is a letter.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah. Clara's adoptive mother finds a letter that she says was written by Serene and left for the twins that replicates word for word, a chapter in the novel that Clara has written.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah. And so, like, word for word, it is the same. And then just the arc of the novel gets at some of the arc of the hidden past of their family. There's a lot of overlap happening. And you're never. You're not sure who is writing whom, basically. Correct.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah, I think that sums it up.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, let's just dig in. So I was gonna say, with synopsis out of the way, I wanna hear broad strokes of how you felt about the book. Love it. Hate it. Did you even. And I actually wanna go first to get the conversation started because I personally found this book both hypnotic and challenging. And I was both excited and nervous to select it for book club. And that's because there's something for everyone and there's something for everyone to hate. And maybe that's too strong. Not hate, but there's something that, like that you brush up against that it feels challenging and that all felt intentional. But, like, we have two pretty, in my opinion, unlikable protagonists. And I don't say that to start off an unlikable character discourse. I just mean both of these characters say and do pretty mean, vindictive things to themselves and to others. And they make.

[Sadie Stein]

Especially to each other.

[MJ Franklin]

Especially to each other. And they make a lot of questionable choices. So they're hard to be around even as they are, I think. Very compelling characters. And Then you have the formal play and the metafictional aspects, and you're never totally sure where you are or what's happening at any point in the novel. And so the book feels, to me the opposite of accessible. And yet the reason why I was excited to choose it is because I think it's so ambitious and it's trying something so different. And I got the sense that, like, here's someone trying something new who has opened up the literary toolbox and is just grabbing everything that they can to find new ways to tell this story. And I really admired that in Big Picture. I was just very enchanted by it. So I never knew what was going on, but I was hooked by it. But I know that that might not be everyone's cup of tea. So I'm especially interested to know, broad Strokes, what you thought about this.

[Jen Harlan]

Well, I actually think this is why it's a perfect book club choice. And I hope a lot of people are reading along and reading with their book clubs, because, as you say, there's so much you need to share with other people to question your own perceptions or just say, am I getting this wrong? Am I missing something? I think a lot of how you respond to this novel depends on your enjoyment of unreliable narrators. Because there are not one, not two, but three unreliable narrators lying to themselves.

[MJ Franklin]

Lying to each other, lying to us.

[Jen Harlan]

Exactly. So I initially was wary of that, but then I got really swept up. The other thing that's interesting is it begins in the voice of Clara, the writer. And it's a much more poetic and in some ways disjointed and experimental voice. And then when we move on to Dempsey's narration, we realize it's completely different. And I had thought I was like, gosh, I don't know if I can stick with this much poetry. But then I saw she was totally in command of it. And there are genuinely beautiful poetic passages. But again, there's something for all of you.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, for your reading experience, what element finally brought you in? You said you started off, you weren't sure, and then you got intrigued. What hooked you?

[Jen Harlan]

Well, the initial sighting of the mother just is very intriguing. But I think what really started it for me was when the sisters first interacted.

[MJ Franklin]

Can you tell us a little bit more plot wise? Just walk us through.

[Jen Harlan]

Sure. So after Clara has had this encounter with a woman whom she is convinced is her mother, inexplicably 30 years old, stealing watches from a store, stealing a Rolex, and she, by the way, looks much more like the mother she's considered the beautiful one. She's very tall, like their mother, as well as having in some ways drawn the better straw in the adoption stakes. Although that becomes debatable too. Like everything, but to the outer eye, she's had a luckier time of it. So she comes to Dempsey's house to tell her this amazing thing that she assumes will be of equal interest to her. Dempsey is enraged, defensive, weary. We immediately see her own neuroses at work. Each of them is, I would say, a hot mess in different ways. The Dempsey narration, I also thought was often very funny. She's obsessed with all these influencers and she has this kind of guru, Dr. Reina Pinelli, whom she quotes constantly.

[MJ Franklin]

The world's worst therapist. And reminded me of a terrible therapist in Big Swiss. If either of you have read that.

[Sadie Stein]

I haven't read that one.

[MJ Franklin]

Oh, my gosh, it's so good. And then also the therapist in that book is insane and.

[Jen Harlan]

And has boundary issues. Oh, and also in Playworld.

[MJ Franklin]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. So this great literary boundary. What about you, Jen? How did you feel about this book?

[Sadie Stein]

I think similarly to both of you. I've been trying to describe it to a few people, and I feel like the words I keep coming back to are disorienting and wild, both of which could mean it's really engaging and also could be really off pitting. And I think, for me, Sadie, I felt similarly. When you start in Clara's voice, there are parts of the writing that are really beautiful and poetic. The author is a poet. She clearly has a real command of language. There are also parts that are very funny, but I found myself struggling to find something to grab onto. And then I think when Dempsey comes in and is the voice of reason, like the author, to say, what are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. Our mother is dead. Even if she were alive, she would be 60 now. It gave me sort of a portal in to be like, okay, it's not just me. There's gonna be some balance in here. And from there, I was able to be along for the ride. And I think for me, what kept me going was I spent so much of this book just being like, what is happening? And not in a bad way, in a way that kept me intrigued and kept me wanting to follow the twists and turns which just get wilder and wilder as the book goes on. And then as I was trying to describe it to, I finished the book while on a trip with some friends, and I was trying to describe it to them every Time you think you know what it is. It's like a puzzle box. And every time you think you figured it out, then something clicks in it. Everything revolves again, and you find yourself in another space. And I re. I just kept reading to find out what happens.

[MJ Franklin]

I was in that same boat. I think this is a book where if you don't mind being lost for long periods of time, you will like this book. And if you don't like feeling rudderless in a reading experience, this book is not for you. I liked, yeah, that puzzle box aspect. And for me, the anchor for me was the big picture. I never knew at any given moment or with any individual scene what's happening. I could tell that all of these pieces were coming together to form a big whole. Like, in my mind, it was a strange, psychological Lego tower where, like, each piece I was very confused by, but the tower, it was constructed. It was constructing. I was just transfixed by.

[Sadie Stein]

I think what's also interesting is I know I just described Dempsey as the kind of voice of reason there, but the. That really shifts throughout the book, too. And you start off at one point thinking who the reasonable character is and who the deluded one is. And then those lines all get really blurry, and everyone's sense of reality and what is reasonable keeps shifting throughout the book. And then you find yourself on wild rides with Dempsey, where how can you not see what is happening here? How can you be getting swept along, particularly when it comes to the therapist and some things that happen there.

[Jen Harlan]

Her other influencer crush. She has a crush on this guy Jack Spratt, who's a fitness influencer.

[Sadie Stein]

Incredible name, truly.

[Jen Harlan]

And who's the beauty one? Marie Antoinette. Who? She slavishly gets all her makeup tips and buys them in exactly the colors that this woman says to use. And her self perception varies a lot from scene to scene or within scenes.

[MJ Franklin]

There's a scene where she has put on all of this makeup and she's going to an event, and she feels. And she carries this confidence. And then something happens. And in that same scene, she goes to the bathroom and she looks at herself in the mirror and she is horrified. I can't believe I stepped outside like this. So in addition to the book's larger picture shifting, just their own self perception and confidence changes wildly, to use the word that Jen said.

[Jen Harlan]

There's a lot of interesting things about beauty and self perception and perception generally. There's a whole through line about at their hair and their mother's hair. And I won't get too into it, but the adoptive mother who is very into chemical straightening and it's a whole plot line of its own. So again, I won't spoil anything.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, I was gonna ask later what themes arose for you, but before we get there, I'm gonna give you time to brainstorm I just wanted to read some reader comments because this month we've been talking about the book online with readers and the New York Times community. We have an article up headlined Book Club Read the Catch by Yossi Daly Award with the Book Review. There's a conversation building there, and here are just a few comments that I wanted to read. Simon from both Durham and Tokyo says, this is an unforgettable book. Huge, brilliant and original. The overwhelming impression I got from it is raw power. To use one of the book's own metaphors, it feels like a river in flood, apt at any moment to smash through the levees of social and literary convention. Jillian from Colorado says, well, I just finished this mind bender of a book and can't help but feel I've been punked by Eurisa Daily Ward, but in the best way possible. I just didn't know which way was up the whole time I was reading. But when she continues on a little bit the novel was highly entertaining. However, some of the overtones I think Wart was going for regarding the power we have as women to choose ourselves, not forcing ourselves to fit a mold of motherhood, breaking trauma cycles, etc. Got lost in the swirling atmosphere of the novel. None of these messages really sunk in for me and I got lost in the soup of the non linear narrative. Jeanne or Jean from Rockford, Michigan says, I feel mixed about the book. Part of me loved the drama and mystery that was woven into the story with the sisters and the mom never really knowing who was real and wanting to keep reading to figure out the truth of each character. So when I got to the ending I was disappointed. I'm going to skip over a little bit to avoid spoilers, but but, she continues, the part I connected with was the experience of grief and how it can change you and your relationships with people since you have such extreme emotions that can be new and scary and are so difficult to express to other people. And last one, I know I'm reading a lot, but these comments are really good. And that is Kylie from Dallas says, what captured me the most is the realness of character experiences that I could relate to being a biracial and transracial adoptee, the questions of identity and all the ways that shapes a person. The Journey of loving your hair, letting go of beauty standards you can't naturally fit into grief. I've buried both of my parents. Losing a parent as a child changes things. Motherhood. There are days when it feels like choosing your children means losing parts of yourself. Sometimes just being woman can feel like drowning because realistically, can we do it all in serene? We see the fear having to take advantage of the situation before it takes advantage of you. The author blurs the lines of reality, but the issues she tackles are very real. So those are just a few reader comments. Again, continue to go talk online, but just wanted to share and I guess to dig more into our conversation here. I posed that question. Were there themes that really stood out to you that were really salient? I'll follow your lead here.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah, Sadie touched a little bit on beauty, which I think to me is tied up with One of the main things I took away from this book was this idea of being both of the sisters being really disconnected from their physical bodies. There are a lot of moments where they talk about their body as an object that they are inhabiting but are not in control of. I think when we first meet Clara at the beginning, she has used some of the money from her book to get veneers. And she talks about how her new teeth have made her a large smiling structure is how she describes herself. And then later, in that same opening scene where she's at a book event and she's speaking, she says the mouth that I am using makes another joke that makes everyone laugh a little more and also says later, my hair is wavy today, blown out and decadent. My face is contoured, gorgeously lit, smooth as a mannequin's. I look like the thing with eyes on the back of the book. And Dempsey, in a sort of different way feels also has this dysmorphic idea of what she looks like. We've mentioned how her perception of herself shifts and she turns to therapy and influencers and porn and all sorts of different places to try and find some way to get physically into her body. And there's an incident which we may talk about in the second half of the podcast, where she is able to connect with her physical form. But then that also gets twisted. And this to me seems to be tied up in both this, like, physical separation that the girls had from their mother when they were babies and then also the physical separation from each other as children that has now manifested in this really traumatic and disturbing way with their relationship to themselves.

[MJ Franklin]

That was something I was thinking about too. And you Said dysmorphia. But it also made me think of dissociation, which is a thing that happens with grief. And how, for me, I don't think those two things naturally or necessarily come together. But in this book, they certainly do. And that added to the swirl of what's going on. Is this a psychological thing that's happening with these characters? Is there a greater grief thing happening? Is there a supernatural thing happening? What is going on? Did you.

[Sadie Stein]

That's just the theme. That could be the title of this episode. What is Going On?

[MJ Franklin]

The catch.

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah. Because you've got poetry, magical realism, science fiction. And one of the themes for me, definitely about the relationships of siblings. And even though these two women have literally been separated for most of their lives, the fact that there are these people in the world who share something fundamental with you which no one else can truly understand. And they actively. I would say it's not too strong to say they hate each other.

[Sadie Stein]

One of my favorite lines in the whole book is when Clara is talking about Dempsey and she says, I love her, but I hate her. I. All the things her. And that to me, felt very emblematic both of their relationship. And also anyone who has siblings. There's no one who can get under your skin, who can drive you more crazy, but also no one who you love and who knows you.

[Jen Harlan]

Exactly. And I don't want to put you on the spot, but since you, mj.

[MJ Franklin]

Are an actual twin, I am an actual twin.

[Jen Harlan]

How did you feel about the twin representation?

[MJ Franklin]

So the twin representation felt so heartbreaking to me because my brother is my best friend. He sometimes he calls me this, and I hate it when he says it. And I can't believe I'm repeating this in a hype mate, but he calls me his womb mate. Cause he knows it makes me uncomfortable. But that's the kind of brother he is. He's, like, always teasing me and supporting me. And like, we are there for each other through and through. And I can't imagine fighting with him in this way, let alone to have this type of separation disjuncture from my twin brother. I do have a joke that I used to say that he was my mortal enemy, my nemesis. And it was like a Harry Potter Voldemort, like, neither can live while the other survives situation. And then I stopped that and I started saying, he's not my nemesis anymore. He's my friend. We grew up together is what I would say.

[Sadie Stein]

I love that.

[MJ Franklin]

But I would not acknowledge that he was my twin brother. Anyway, this is all to say, I'm very close to my brother.

[Jen Harlan]

And you are virtually identical twins.

[MJ Franklin]

We are.

[Jen Harlan]

You are identical twins. So the jig must have been up.

[MJ Franklin]

To a certain degree, which was like part of the winking fun part about this and the joy of having a twin. And so to read about these twins who are so combative, and then you get their backstory and you really do get the sense of betrayal and hurt that happens between the two of them. And I just couldn't imagine it. But I think there is a richness there, too. And both twins are weird and interesting.

[Sadie Stein]

And in life and in literature.

[MJ Franklin]

Exactly. And so I liked having twins as the anchor in this book. But enough about me and twinhood and my own experiences. We're gonna jump back into the book. But first, I think we should take a quick.

[Sadie Stein]

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[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. This is the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm chatting with Jen Harlan and Sadie Stein and we're talking about the Catch by Ursa Daily Word. Sadie, in the break you said something really interesting that I'm gonna tee you up. Can you tell us again?

[Jen Harlan]

Sure. I was just saying that if there's anyone out there who, for whatever reason, is tempted to put this book down. It's just too much work. It's too confusing. Stick with it. You may not like it, but I feel like to get the full experience of this book, it is absolutely necessary to read to the last page.

[MJ Franklin]

And so we are gonna dive into the big spoilers, the twists at the end. So consider this your SPO spoiler alert. Now that we're in the second half, we're fully dive in. If you haven't read the book and you do care about spoilers, now is the time to pause and stop. If you don't care about spoilers, if you've already read it, let's continue on. So in the second half, Clara and Dempsey finally start acting like sisters after beefing for however many pages. And they're brought together in part from a discovery that serene this figure who's integrated herself into their life in a variety of ways. They figure out that she's a ghost of sorts from the past. And that in the present, the sisters are at a critical inflection point. They're at the moment when ghostareen meets the man who will become the twins father. And that to exercise Ghostareen, they need to stop her from having that hookup. But in doing so, they could erase their own existence. And so it's this sort of time loop paradox. And then the book ends with not one ending, but several more different endings. Am I getting that right?

[Jen Harlan]

Oh, yeah.

[Sadie Stein]

As best as I can tell, it.

[Jen Harlan]

Becomes very choose your own adventure in.

[Sadie Stein]

Literally, there is a list of you think you've reached the end. And then there is a list of 11 other possible ways that the story could go.

[MJ Franklin]

So I want to ask a two part question. One is, what did you make of that twist? And then two, what do you think that does to the the arc of the book and the ideas of the novel? Where does this take us conceptually and thematically? And what does it indicate about the project of the book? I'm just curious. Like this is a huge twist and the book has been playing metafictionally all along, but this is a big thing. So what did you make of it?

[Jen Harlan]

I think I felt once I read it that it had been foreshadowed. In a way, it was almost a relief. They had played a lot with the idea of sexual boundaries throughout the book. And there is a moment where it does start to veer into incest. And so you knew she was seeding something with that because everything is deliberate. So in that Regard. I don't think I felt shocked. I found it satisfying, actually.

[MJ Franklin]

Really? What was so satisfying about it?

[Jen Harlan]

Well, first of all, it explained a few things. It gave you kind of your first. Your first actual clarity into the plot. I was like, oh, okay, this I could metabolize. I can describe this to someone. I also, I'm a sucker for the old time travel quantum leap paradox. Do you change the past and forget your own birth? That was to do with future song.

[Sadie Stein]

Some flutter of the butterfly's wings.

[Jen Harlan]

Exactly. So that I'm just. I'm cheap that way. I'm a cheap date for a time loop. So that immediately delighted me.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Jen? What did you think of the twist?

[Sadie Stein]

Well, you described it, and I said, as best I can tell, that is what happened. Cause even as the twist was happening, I still found it slippery, I think because we played with that.

[MJ Franklin]

What's a great term, slippery. That's what this book is.

[Sadie Stein]

It is. I just could. Every time I thought I'd maybe gotten my hands around it, it would veer off in another direction. And even when the book morphs into this kind of magical, realistic thriller heist, they're drugging people, they're putting on disguises, there's a tryst in a hotel. It becomes a kind of supernatural spy thriller, which I did find very entertaining. But I also found the tonal shift and the shift in the sisters, particularly Dempsey, a little bit hard to fully buy into, just because there is, particularly with her, there's this very dramatic shift where all of a sudden, and with both of the sisters, where they've been so in their own silos and unable to speak a common language. And then it felt like all of a sudden, now we're allies and we're convinced that this woman, who we were, they were both being drawn to, but especially Claire in this way, suddenly they're both convinced that she is a fake, is a ghost. And then it also brings up these really thorny questions where when they're talking about how they are determined to stop Serene from getting pregnant so that they will not be haunted by the specter anymore, but also knowing, and in Clara's case, even wanting to erase their own existence, which there's something that's both very triumphant about the fact that they are finally united and that now you're off again on this adventurous tone, but also something really tragic and sad that feels like a real letdown of the story, that they succumb to the same dark pull that maybe also pulled their mother away when she was their Age. It's sort of like walking the line between, like, is this a vindication? Have they defeated a ghost? Or is this a defeat and they have been lost in the same way that their mother was?

[Jen Harlan]

I do agree with you for sure, that. And with that commenter who felt that at points, some of the larger intention of the book was intention with the very heavy plotting. And I think what you're describing is a case of that, because she's touching on so many fascinating themes and they do have to be flattened out a little bit in the maelstrom of events that occur.

[MJ Franklin]

Though I agree that it all felt very sudden. And then you said something that I was like, but maybe it's landing, which is the question of are they succumbing to the forces that also targeted their mother and that their mother drowned in, or are they defeating those forces? And I like the ambiguity, but I didn't like the suddenness of some of the terms.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah, I think that's where I wanted to start a little bit more maneuvering to get us there. I think the shift just felt a little abrupt to me. But I agree, I do think the ambiguity is interesting. And also, this book talks a lot about mental illness. You find out at various points Clara has been diagnosed with borderline personality Disorder.

[Jen Harlan]

That confusion is coerced by Ghostarene and only mentioned once. So can you really pin that? I don't know. Another thing that, while you were talking, occurred to me. One thing that's fun about the book is, as you say, it's metafictional in that Clara is writing these books and saying asinine. And we know often very insane things on the stage, and she's frequently drunk and audiences are just responding rapturously and just think she's incredibly wise and brilliant. And I almost wonder if there was. And there's also a lot of kind of mockery at the pieties of the publishing industry. So I started to wonder if just now, if maybe there was a Charlie Kaufman, an adaptation thing going where they give into the conventions of the genre where it's almost like, oh, you want. You want plot? You want resolution? Oh, I'll give you plot.

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, I'll give you plot.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah, that's the kind of clever trick of this novel, I think, which is every storytelling convention that we're like, oh, is it too sudden? Or like every expectation we have when we bristle against it, you feel like she's one step ahead. And you're like, maybe this is part of the idea of the book.

[Sadie Stein]

And I do Think especially when you get to the end and the epilogue. The. Again, this list of, like, 11 possible versions of what could have happened, which are supposed to be written from the perspective of the psychic, maybe slash, con artist that they meet, that Dempsey meets.

[Jen Harlan]

On a rock, on a Roc, nursing a baby.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah, I do feel like I got to that point and I was like, oh, the writer is, like, having a lot of fun with this, and I am having fun with her. It felt like there are parts of the book that seem to take itself very seriously. And then at that, there are moments towards the end where, oh, no, we're just. We're pulling out all the stops and that. I really enjoyed being along the ride for that.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I tell you my thought about the ending and the list of multiple other possible endings? Because at one point, you see that, yeah, that psychic has written a list of other possible endings to Clara and Dempsey's story. And the one that we have just read is crossed off as if that's the one that the writer chose in this particular time. But the story could be told in other ways. And I read that, and I sat up, which is an experience I had many, many times while reading this where I was like, what is happening? Every nerve is firing. Because for me, the story isn't necessarily about Clara and Dempsey. It's about this experience of grief. And it got to that metafictional idea of how do we tell stories of loss? And Yrisa Daily Ward gave this interview with NPR where she said that the book was inspired by her own loss and that she lost her mother when she was in her twenties. And. And the book came from the question of what would happen if she ran into her mother. Would her mother be the same age? Would they be friends? What would be going on? So the idea that this is an expression of grief, which is so hard to vocalize, how do you put raw grief into words on a page? And so for me, seeing that list was like, okay, the narrator is saying, let's experiment. This is a feeling I want to convey. This is an idea I want to get at. What are the possible ways that we can even gesture at that? What are the approaches that we can take that get us closest to the truth? And I found that exciting. And maybe I'm reading too closely into it or maybe I'm interpreting it that weird. But I think that's a triumph of the novel, which is just how open it is and how both fun and heady it is. And I loved it.

[Sadie Stein]

Well, I think that also gets something we haven't touched on yet is the way that Clara Ursa talks about storytelling and writing and rewriting in the book when we open, Clara has written this very successful book called Evidence, which we could talk about that title forever.

[Jen Harlan]

We could talk about the title the Catch forever.

[Sadie Stein]

Well, so she. Clara, has written this novel called Evidence, which is a metafictional, autofictional version of the story of her mother and what happened to her and to Clara and Dempsey that some people think is fantasy, some people think is autobiographical. And then there's a moment later in the book where a. There's two things I want to say. One is that there's a moment where you find out that Serene, the ghost, has maybe been possessing Clara the whole time she was writing, and that Serene has been the one crafting the version of her story that has come out. And there's also a moment where Clara talks about, well, if I were gonna tell this story differently, how might I do it? There would be more of the twins, More of the story would focus on them, which is what happens in the book that we've just read. There would be less of Serene. I would call it the Catch, and it would be a hot pink book. And if you have a physical copy of the Catch, it is indeed, if you take off the jacket, hot pink. And so I think there's also something really fun happening where both within the world of the book and outside of it, we as readers, there's a rewriting, a recontextualizing, a changing of perspective that keeps happening. And it's fun, I think, to imagine, well, if you just shift one tiny thing or if you shift one perspective, like, how does that change the story?

[Jen Harlan]

I'm glad you brought up the book, the physical book, because it's a perfect cover for this book. The jacket is literal clouds. It's very ambiguous. And then you have the hot pink book underneath. And I also wanted to put in a plug for the audiobook because the author reads it herself, and she's an actor as well as a writer, and she brings so much humor to it. And the way she differentiates the voices is really effective. And I loved reading it, too. But I think it's one that adapts exceptionally well.

[MJ Franklin]

So go listen to that, everyone. But on that note, we're running out of time, and we have a fun third section that I want to get to. But before we pivot, I want to ask, are there any last things anyone wants to mention?

[Sadie Stein]

I feel like we haven't talked a lot about the side. There are A lot of. There's a colorful cast of side characters in this book, some of whom are more fully developed than others. But the one that I found probably the most intriguing and engaging was the.

[Jen Harlan]

Grifter therapist, Dr. Raina Pinelli.

[Sadie Stein]

And the spoiler that I alluded to earlier is that Dempsey goes on this spiritual retreat, which seems to clearly be a scam for the quote, unquote air quotes.

[MJ Franklin]

Dr. She's basically forcibly enrolled.

[Sadie Stein]

Yes, yes.

[Jen Harlan]

And it's expensive.

[Sadie Stein]

By Clara in this expensive retreat that her therap. Again, big air quotes that you can't see if you're listening. Therapist who has essentially bullied her into doing this. But on the last night, she's there with a group of other women and she starts to really come out of her shell. It's really beautiful to see her start to make actual friends and to bond with people. And then at the end of the weekend, they have what Dempsey thinks is a very profound experience, which is that essentially the therapist has them all lie on the floor in a room and engage in a session of mutual masturbation. It's a physically and emotionally ecstatic moment for Dempsey where she connects with her body, feels connected to these women. And then they formed a group chat, and they're gonna stay best friends forever and have zoom check ins every week.

[MJ Franklin]

And.

[Sadie Stein]

And then one of the women from the retreat who leaves the room during this experience basically accuses the therapist of medical misconduct. And the other women all side with her. They publicly speak out in allyship. And it puts Dempsey in this really heartbreaking position where she had what she thought was this really joyful moment of progress, which.

[Jen Harlan]

With her own mother figure.

[Sadie Stein]

Yes, yes. So much transference happening there. And then she gets roped in by the therapist and her weird husband who are trying to get her to speak out publicly to support her, try and salvage her career. And I found that whole sequence really moving and sad and interesting.

[MJ Franklin]

I'm glad you brought that up, because that also connects to one of the big heartbreaking things about this book for me and about these sisters is that at every point they are hurting, but they're also being taken advantage of by various people. And Clara, you get the sense that her publishing house is not taking care of her in the way that they should. And this ghost, Serene, is this really empowering figure, saying, you are a great author who is commanding these big audiences. They should be pushing for you more, and they should be booking you on these bigger stages and really looking out for you. And there's a very young and Eager publishing professional that I was. Emma, I think her name is, that I'm rooting for. But also, you get the sense Emma was not the first choice and is the youngest person at this publishing house. And here's this big author, and at the same time, she's finally getting cared for by this ghost. But then Ghost Serene is taking so much money from her. And something similar is happening with Dempsey, too. Again, she has this mother figure that she. In this profound experience with the therapist, but then the therapist is abusing her and also trying to use her to clear her own name and advance her own career. And the feeling that I got from these sisters. There was a comment that said that this reader felt like the sisters were motivated by, like, rage. And I felt like they were motivated by just, like, extreme hurt and pain and they were looking for someone to take care of them. And they never found that until the end when it was each other. And I found that just like that arc. Both very compelling, but also so heartbreaking.

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah. And everyone's a grifter when you think about it. From the influencers, of course, talking all their products to Dr. Reina Pinelli and her husband. And the reason I am saying both names is because this is how she's referred to throughout the book.

[MJ Franklin]

Good character.

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah. To various seers and mediums. And.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah. Cause the seer's like, I can help you, but bring this money and bring this. And bring your. Like, it's icky, but.

[Sadie Stein]

And the guy who's their mom's maybe boyfriend, who she was living with, who's like, I can bring you her passport and documents, but you have to give me £20,000.

[MJ Franklin]

And also, knowing how these sisters, adoptive parents didn't really care for them.

[Sadie Stein]

And in some cases, in Dempsey's case, not just didn't care for her, but sexually abused her. And in the case of Clara's mom, both emotionally abused and in one case, you could argue, also physically, there's a moment where she, without Dempsey's dad's permission, tries to use chemical straighteners on her that burn her scalp. So all of the people who were supposed to take care of these sisters at any point in their life had just completely. It's a complete dereliction of duty and of care.

[MJ Franklin]

Bit of a downer of a note.

[Sadie Stein]

To end on, but I will say. But I did also find it moving when they are able to connect and to take care of each other, even if it means transcending this earthly plane together and going on to other watery adventures.

[MJ Franklin]

And then my positive last Thing I wanted to say is I loved, loved, loved, loved the last line of this book, which is just quote, and that is the thing about destiny. She comes and it comes and we come around.

[Sadie Stein]

I love that.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, before we leave, I want to get to our third section recommendations. As always, we want to share some books that we think will pair well with the Catch. And I'm going to follow your lead on why you are recommending a book and why you think it will pair well. Maybe it's another twisty metafictional thriller. Maybe it's a book about twins. Maybe it's something else. I defer to you. I'll follow you. But I just want to know, what would you recommend readers pick up after they finish the Catch? I'm going to start with you, Jen.

[Sadie Stein]

So I have two things that came to mind for me thinking a lot about the sort of psychological thriller aspect, the uncanny doubling and also the way that this book deals with race and with the publishing industry. One thing that I definitely thought about a lot as I was reading this book was the Other Black Girl by Zakiya Delilah Harris, which is about the this girl Nella, who is an editorial assistant at a publishing house. She is the only black editorial employee there. And then there is another woman who is hired, Hazel, who shows up and very quickly. At first, Nella isn't really sure how to feel about her. She's jealous, she wants to be her friend. She's resentful. And then some weird twists start happening. There are some nefarious things that are happening with Hazel and you're not sure. Is she there for good, for evil? I don't wanna spoil too many things, but is it again, a very, like twisty and meaty book that has a lot to chew on that I saw a lot of parallels with this one.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I throw a piggyback thing to that recommendation, which is one love that book. And it was adapted into a TV series which I haven't seen but people also really loved. But my piggyback recommendation is Zakiya went on the Critic in her Publics podcast, which is hosted by the Critic, Merve Emre. And she talked what she wanted to do in that book about writing and editing, about the process of adapting it from page to screen. And I love that conversation. So I wanted to throw that there too. Go read the book, but then also go listen to that podcast too.

[Sadie Stein]

And then the other one I was gonna recommend, speaking of Unreliable Narrators and Descents into Madness, which also has a really great series adaptation, is the Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson, which like setting wise and tonally is very different from this book. But. But Sadie, you mentioned that there are a lot of like gothic hallmarks in this book. There are in the Haunting of Hill House as well, which is about a young woman, Eleanor Vance, psychologically fragile, who goes to this mysterious, allegedly haunted country house. Is part of a group of people who have volunteered to assist a professor of the paranormal in his research. And as the house starts to work its dark magic and take over her, the minds of the people in the house, you follow her descent into madness. But is it or is it? Yes, it is one of those books where I read it and I was, ah, I now understand what so many people ever since then have been. Everyone's just trying to be Shirley Jackson, like the first and best to ever do it.

[MJ Franklin]

It has one of my favorite all time opening lines and that's because of a weird tag. It's two words in the opening sentence where she says there's a long winding opening, but in the middle she says hill House not sane stood in the hills, hiding darkness within. And that not sane is such an economical but perfect little. It tells you everything you need to know and opens up so. I love it. I love it so much.

[Sadie Stein]

It's so good. And also both the book and I would say the Mike Flanagan series adaptation, which is plot wise very different from the original novel but keeps a lot of the same elements. Both really reward second readings or viewings.

[MJ Franklin]

Good to know.

[Jen Harlan]

The original movie's good too.

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, I haven't seen it. I'll have to watch that.

[Jen Harlan]

Really well cast. Claire Bloom as Theo is perfect.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Sadie?

[Jen Harlan]

I thought of a few. First of all, wish her Safe at Home by Steven Benatar.

[MJ Franklin]

I don't know this.

[Sadie Stein]

Me neither.

[Jen Harlan]

It's really one of the ultimate unreliable narrators. It's definitely a descent into madness book and it's definitely ultimately a quite tragic story about a woman being. Being quite obviously taken advantage of. But it's fascinating and it's propulsive and it's weird. He had a lot of trouble getting.

[MJ Franklin]

It published because it was so weird.

[Jen Harlan]

Or because, yeah, it was weird and depressing and strange. But New York Review Classics brought it back a few years ago and I highly recommend seeking it out. The other ones I thought of. Let's see. Oh, what Erasure. Which many of you will know as the basis of American fiction. Again, skewering the pieties of the white.

[MJ Franklin]

Publishing industry and a previous book club pick. So go listen to the episode. We'll link to it in the show notes.

[Jen Harlan]

Well, speaking of previous Book Club picks, while we were talking, I thought Playworld also, if we want to. If you want to read more about kids who feel really insufficiently protected by the adults in their lives, that's definitely a motif. But the other one I had was the House on the Strand by Daphne du Maurier because we needed a du Maurier on this list. And this one is gothic but also has a time travel element and it's trippy. She wrote it in 69 and she was being hep to the jive, but it's great.

[MJ Franklin]

Daphne du Maurier and Shirley Jackson mentioned on this podcast. What a Murderer's Row. I love this and I've only read Rebecca, which I know you is like.

[Jen Harlan]

My favorite novel, which I reread annually.

[MJ Franklin]

So if you've only read Rebecca like me, go check this out. I know I'll be adding this to my reading list, but thank you for those recommendations. I have a few because weird grief novels are my specialty. So the first one I wanted to mention is Grief is the Thing with Feathers by Max Porter. This is one of my favorite all time books. I find it so moving. It is about a family and there's a father, two sons and a mother and the mother dies and the book is narrated in three perspectives. One is by father, the other is by the boys, which is the shared consciousness perspective of both boys and then in their grief a strange figure comes to live with them and that is Qrow and Crow is grief incarnate and it's this figure like Ghost Serene that is both abusive and violent but also supportive. And the book is this moving account of literally how we live with grief after a loss. And I love it so much. The next is the Furrows by Namwali Serpell. This is also a strange what is Going on novel. It opens with a woman named Cee and when she was 12 she was swimming with her brother at the beach. A storm came, the brother got swept out to sea. Cee tried to save him but then couldn't get him. She blacks out, wakes up on the beach, she's half drowned, the brother is gone. That's just one version of his disappearance in the book. There are many other versions of how he dies and or disappears. And then you get another section. Cee has grown up and she starts seeing a man that looks like her brother who disappeared, but he's not the brother. Or at least I hope not, because then Cee starts sleeping with this man, and they have a weird relationship, and there's like, something. Some type of calamity happens, but there are multiple versions of that. And it's so weird. But it opens with a line. I don't want to tell you what happened. I want to tell you how it felt. Which I feel like is also the ethos of the Catch. And it's just the Furrows is a great book, and it was one of our best books of the year. Then there's Dead in Long Beach, California by Vanita Blackburn, which is about a woman named Coral whose brother kills himself. And in her grief, two things happen. One is that instead of telling people that her brother has died, she starts impersonating him online. So keeping him alive, virtually, which you should not do. And so then as she's going about this ruse, her life starts to unravel. But then also, Coral is the author of a science fiction book. And the narrator of Dead in Long Beach, California, is a chorus of the robots in Coral's book. And so it's this weird novel playing with grief and dissociation. Sounds similar. And then lightning. I'm just gonna mention a few titles because I'm talking long, but if you love novels about twins, please read the Vanishing Half by Brett Bennett. Death Takes Me by Christina Rivera Garza is a book that came out earlier this year, and that's a very trippy experimental crime thriller. And then we can't talk about weird, big twists of books published this year without mentioning Audition by Katy Kitamura.

[Jen Harlan]

Good point.

[Sadie Stein]

So many, so many great things to add to my reading list.

[Jen Harlan]

This is a really solid list.

[Sadie Stein]

Well, I think, as we said at the top, there is something in this book for everyone. And so I think whichever thing you find in here that you like, there is a book, another book for you out there with that.

[MJ Franklin]

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. Sadie, Jen, thank you so much. This is really fun and very helpful in making sense of what this book is.

[Jen Harlan]

I feel like you opened a lot of doors for me.

[Sadie Stein]

Same. I feel like I've been. Ever since I closed this book, I have been needing to dig into it with people, and you are the best people to do it with.

[MJ Franklin]

And I want to say also a huge thank you to everyone who read with us online. Again, we have an article up on the New York Times website headlined book Club, Read the Catch by Yurissa Daily Ward with the book review. Continue the conversation there. As promised, now is the time to reveal our August book. In August, we will be reading Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. That is a twisty novel about a stranger who washes up on shore of a remote island, a family who lives there that are hiding secrets, and all the ways that they intertwine. It's really fun. I hope you'll read with us. We have an article up on the New York Times website Headline Book Club. Read Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey with the book Review. Add your thoughts and comments there. We can't wait to talk about this book with you, but until then, happy reading.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was MJ Franklin in conversation with Sadie Stein and Jennifer Harlan, two of our colleagues here at the Book Review, talking about the psychological thriller the Catch. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thank you for listening.