← The Book Review
The Book Review
How ‘Nickel Boys’ Became One of the Year’s Most Visually Striking Films
00:22:05
The director RaMell Ross on adapting Colson Whitehead’s prize-winning novel.
Loading summary
Transcript50 lines
- [00:00]
Liz Ann Saunders
This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist, along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy, and more. Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:38]
Gilbert Cruz
Hello, I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review and this is the Book Review Podcast. Today and for the next two weeks, I'm going to be talking with several Oscar nominated directors and screenwriters, all of whom have films that are up for best picture and each of those films has been adapted from a novel or nonfiction book. Today I'm talking with Romel Ross, whose film Nickel Boys was adapted from Colson Whitehead's Pulitzer Prize winning novel the Nickel Boys. That book and the movie both are about a pair of black boys, Elwood and Turner, who find themselves in a dangerous reform school in the Jim Crow South.
- [01:19]
Romel Ross
They're four ways out of nickel Serve your time or age out court might intervene if you believe in miracles you could die, they could kill you, you could run Only four ways out of.
- [01:38]
Gilbert Cruz
Nickel Ross film has been nominated for two Academy Awards this year, Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Picture. This is Ross second film and also the second time he's been nominated for an Academy Award. He was also up for an Oscar for his documentary called Hale county this Morning this evening. In addition to being a filmmaker, he is also a professor and an accomplished still photographer. It's a delight to talk to you right now. Ramel, thank you for joining the Book Review podcast.
- [02:09]
Romel Ross
No, pleasure. A pleasure to be a part of.
- [02:11]
Gilbert Cruz
It to start with. Of course I have to talk about the way that you made this movie. Nickel Boys has a very particular style. It's shot from the point of view of its main characters. I've been comparing it to sort of like a first person video game. I think it takes a minute or two to lock in, but once you do, and once I did, I found it to be a really special experience. I wonder if you could talk about the style of the film.
- [02:39]
Romel Ross
Yeah, it's a film that is shot in first person which would eventually come to call sentient perspective. It is essentially the character looking directly into the camera and the camera of course is the other character. And also you are the camera and you are that character. It sounds more complicated than it is. It also sounds more gimmicky than it is, although it takes some adjusting, as you mentioned. You're really, I believe, kind of locked in, at least conceptually, to what the character is seeing and how they're seeing it and why they're seeing it. I guess.
- [03:17]
Gilbert Cruz
When you read Nickel Boys, what were you seeing in your head and how did you make the leap from that to, as you described, the sentient perspective, this point of view type of filmmaking.
- [03:31]
Romel Ross
I mean, the story itself is so known which is the brightest and the best fall victim to, you know, a circumstance that's outside of their control. And I think Carlson's. To me, he, like, doesn't overly describe things to me. He explains things extremely well. And with that, there's just so much imagination space in it. And so I left with thousands, if not millions of images of that were my own. Normally I feel like when I, when I'm reading, they're just like filling my head with the images. But for some reason, these images or seem to be emerging from more specifically my personal poetic. And what a way to encounter a book.
- [04:12]
Gilbert Cruz
I think had you had this idea in your sort of creative back pocket, I want to do a project that is entirely through point of view, through first person. And then how did you know this was the right one to match it to?
- [04:31]
Romel Ross
I did, but I'll say that I think my pockets are so full that the ideas have spilled out and they're like on the streets, everywhere. I want to say I thought of it, but it wasn't something like, I will do this. It was like, oh, how interesting would it be to make a first person film from the perspective of a black person? But this book, because of the way that Carlson wrote it and because of its main characters, I think I couldn't help but put myself in their shoes, quite literally. And with that, after reading the book, it was the first idea that emerged. Gilbert. I made this photo called I home in 2012, which is like my hand in front of the camera with an iPhone. And then there's an antebellum home in the background that's shown through the phone. And it's blurry in the background and you can see it clear through the phone. And that was like the first time I had really thought about the idea of intervening into the language of photography from the perspective of people of color. Because, as we know, almost all images of people of color have been made by people other than people of color.
- [05:41]
Gilbert Cruz
You have described it, I believe, as shooting from, as opposed to shooting towards. Maybe you were referencing Toni Morrison. I can't Recall, what is the difference between those two words?
- [05:56]
Romel Ross
Yeah, I am referencing Toni Morrison. There's some interview with her online and it's famous, of course, because the interviewer asked her when she's gonna start writing about white people. And she, flabbergasted and articulate as ever, basically says, of course you would never ask that to a white writer. Additionally, I write from the centrality of my experience. And I wondered immediately, like, what does the camera look like with that? And not conceptually, but literally, like, how do you. Because you can write from the perspective of a black person, but how do you explicitly film from the perspective of a black person?
- [06:41]
Gilbert Cruz
That's an interesting challenge and it sort of makes me naturally think about the documentary that you did, Hale county this morning, this evening. That's a film that you shot over several years down in Hale County, Alabama. It's a very lyrical portrait of the daily lives of, you know, the people who are just living in that community. Very observational, almost free floating in its camera work. And when I was watching it recently, something occurred to me which maybe should have been obvious, which is like, Hale county is your first person movie. Essentially, we are seeing what you're seeing. It made me think about the ways in which sort of observational documentaries are inherently first person in that way. There's no intermediary, but they feign objectivity.
- [07:31]
Romel Ross
It's a mind blowing paradox almost. The documentary languages fly on the wall. And the underpinnings of the documentary aesthetic is that you can use a camera, you can participate, but you're not altering it, you're just observing it. And also what's implied there is that you're observing it in a way that someone else would too. And that is a really strange thing. And to me, when I was making Hale county this morning, this evening, and I was coming into the community and I lived in Hale county for a while, but I still always felt like it was not my home. Like I was a person that was coming in and what that looked like. When I spent a lot of time there, I filmed things differently. I thought about people differently. I wanted to represent them differently. We had 1300 hours of footage, right? And the idea behind that is I'm like, oh, my currency is time. I don't have a budget. I'll shoot longer than anyone's ever shot. Oh, wait, no one's been in the community long enough to make images like this. If I do that, I'm gonna be there for family moments. I'm gonna be part of the family. I'm Gonna find these really revelatory images that are universal and epic and banal simultaneously.
- [08:46]
Gilbert Cruz
For those listeners who haven't seen Hale county, it's streaming on Criterion. You can find it other places, but you should definitely check it out. Ramel, I would love for you to tell us how you ended up in Alabama and then how did you end up with all the people that you ended up filming for so long?
- [09:05]
Romel Ross
Yeah, I was in D.C. it was freelancing, teaching photography in schools. And my roommate in D.C. gets the opportunity to go to Hale county and do this workshop with Micah, a school he went to. So I go with him just for two weeks to hang out and make photos and teach a class on photography in this nonprofit. A job opens up in the youthbuild program in Hale County. I have no money whatsoever. DC Is like, really taking me through the wringer. And I move to Alabama to sort of leave the oppressive financial state that I was in in D.C. but then also be somewhere interesting.
- [09:49]
Gilbert Cruz
So you moved to Alabama and you start teaching photography. How did you make the leap from still photographs to. I'm going to embed myself essentially in this community and just go shoot for a long time, and maybe that will be something. And then that thing was a thing. It was a documentary. How did that all happen?
- [10:12]
Romel Ross
Well, I kind of think that artists in general make silly decisions, you know? Okay, when I say silly, I mean counter what they teach you in school, you know, or counter what is responsible for building a nice, firm 401k. I'm there and I'm photographing, and I'm like, whoa, I could stay here forever, you know, like, I'm making $26,000 a year, more money than I've ever made. Like, boy, is this a type of freedom. Wow. I'm learning so much photographing and teaching in this organization and coaching basketball, and I just. I start to become obsessed with trying to understand why my photographs are really bad, you know, and they're not really bad, Gilbert, in terms of, like, their beauty or their. Their connection with other people. But they're really bad in terms of the representation of my. My view of myself and what I sort of understand to be anything that resembles individuality. I'm, like, photographing. And all of the photographs, they just resemble, like, a Walker Evans or William Christenberry or William Eggleston. Any photographer that's come through the South. And I'm like, why? I've been here for two years. I'm photographing every day, four by five camera. Why do they look like other peoples And I begin to realize that of course my imagination is curated like I am making images because I don't know this place very well and I've seen this place before. And so I know those images are good. So I'm going to make images towards the images that I know are good. And so kind of with that reflection I start to like be even more compulsive and impulsive in making images, come to what I call my personal poetic. And then I wonder what that looks like in terms of the moving image because of course the still image has a very particular temporal structure. What does that look like if you're carrying someone's consciousness?
- [12:17]
Gilbert Cruz
There was a piece that you wrote in 2019 for a film quarterly where you one of the many things that you wrote was make the camera and organ take it into your body. And I wonder, even at that point, was this the idea that you had? Like the camera is inside you, it's in your brain, it's in your chest. You are the camera. We are seeing what you are seeing.
- [12:39]
Romel Ross
Yeah. Gilbert it's funny because I've been photographing in Alabama for 15 years. Making the camera in Oregon is a sort of, it's the horizon of ideas that have been happening for a very long time. And in fact, Hell county this morning, this evening is a first person film explicitly, but my hands aren't in it and it's not. I don't fully commit in the way in which we commit in nickel boys. And making a camera in Oregon to me is bringing the camera closer and closer and closer to truth.
- [13:11]
Gilbert Cruz
Let's take a little break. We'll be right back.
- [13:25]
T-Mobile Ad
If you love your phone but not your carrier, just switch to T Mobile. You can keep your phone, keep your number and we'll help pay it off up to $800 per line. You can also use our savings calculator to compare our plans and streaming benefits against Verizon and AT&T. So switch and keep your phone, keep your number and keep more of your moolah. @t mobile.com up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days with device and eligible carrier and timely redemptor required.
- [13:53]
NetCredit Ad
Card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [13:56]
Liz Ann Saunders
NetCredit is here to say yes because you're more than a credit score. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by Netcredit or lending partner banks and serviced by Netcredit Application subject to review and approval. Learn more@netcredit.com partners NetCredit credit to the people.
- [14:14]
Gilbert Cruz
I have to imagine that one of the things that you had to learn in making the switch from documentary filmmaker to a narrative feature filmmaker was how to deal with actors. Now, that's gonna be hard regardless, for someone who's never really done it before, but you decide to make it a little more difficult and add this whole other layer to it where sometimes the actors were in the camera, sometimes the actors, you only see their hands. Sometimes the actors are not in the shot. I want to hear about what was that learning curve like, dealing with actors for what I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, was the first real time.
- [14:52]
Romel Ross
Well, I think that if you're a conscious American and you go out into the world, you're dealing with actors. Just kidding. I think, yeah. I feel like I have a bit of experience because I've taught a bunch and I've coached and I do fundamentally like people. And I think those things kind of spill over to the directing actors process. It was different, of course. And I will say, the first thing I did, and I mean, this literally was go onto YouTube and type in how to work with actors.
- [15:28]
Gilbert Cruz
My God, you're just like, everyone. How do I fix my fridge? How do I work with actors?
- [15:37]
Romel Ross
And I'll tell you one thing, what a resource YouTube was. I was like, oh, I can do that. This guy's doing it. Of course I can. But basically, what I learned from that is just the language. Like, you don't want to give them. You don't want to tell people what to do. You want to open up a space for them to find it. And with the way in which I think about performance in film, in which I'm just invested, like, I'm more of a perceiver than I think a director. Like, I want people to do their thing. I think it was more about, you know, me and the crew giving the actors the space and the confidence to do what they would like and to feel comfortable and to be challenged within themself and then shaping that so that it aligns with the aspects of the film that carry the narrative.
- [16:27]
Gilbert Cruz
Rommel, I'd love if you could tell us a story that you remember about working with one of your actors and either how challenging it was or how sort of fruitful it was.
- [16:39]
Romel Ross
Yeah. So let's see. We're shooting Nickel Boys and Auntie Nu. Ellis Taylor plays Hattie, who is the sort of core of love in both Coulson's narrative and adaptation. And coming into the Film, we didn't have time to rehearse. When I talked with the actors many times, no one asked about the process. Everyone knew it was point of view, but no one asked, literally, what does it look like? And so when they came on set, they were actually a bit surprised that their scene partner was the camera operator, you know? And so Anjanu's first day is the day in which she's coming to visit Elwood, and she has to tell him that the lawyer who was supposed to get Elwood free at the deform school stole the money. So I'm with Angenoux, and I'm, like, watching her compute how she's going to figure this out. And so she's at the picnic table. Jomo Frey, who's the dp, is operating at that moment. And Jomo, like, you know, on the headset with him, will, like, duck to the left. He ducks down. He averts her gaze.
- [17:55]
Elwood, look at me, son.
- [17:58]
And then Jomo pops back up, and some crows start, like, doing their crow sound, like ca. Caw or whatever.
- [18:11]
And I know we hope to have you home by now, Elle. And I think it's okay, Nana.
- [18:16]
And Angenou, like, braces her heart and, like, looks up at the crows.
- [18:21]
It's okay.
- [18:21]
And then, like, comes back to the scene.
- [18:23]
I let you down. I'm okay. Yeah, Elle, I let you down. No.
- [18:31]
And so there's these, like. These, like, meta moments where you're like, this is real. Like, this is not. We're acting clearly. But what's happening is a combination of all these other decisions in the real life atmosphere. And, yeah, it's just, like, such a beautiful thing to witness and be part of and to, like, play your. To orchestrate it a bit.
- [18:51]
Gilbert Cruz
You made a documentary in which you were just capturing life. But there are moments in this movie, whether an actor is involved or not. Like the ingenue Ellis moment. She's looking up at the birds. Which I noticed when I saw the movie, or one that stood out to me, was the moment when Elwood. The camera is. Elwood is looking at the pamphlet for the school that he is supposed to have attended, and his grandmother is talking in the distance, and it's on the fridge. A magnet is holding it to the fridge, and then it just starts slowly sliding down the fridge. And it's not necessarily a moment that advances plot in the way that many narrative films would, but it stood out and it was memorable. And there are many moments like that in this movie. Why did you include those moments in.
- [19:39]
Romel Ross
This movie, well, it's twofold. One is, that's just what's interesting to me. Like, when I'm in the world, the details, the physics of the moment are kind of everything. And Beth Ridgewood was one of my favorite images to imagine or to write because I think as a child, you're always putting the magnet on things that are too heavy, and then they're just slowly sliding down, and you're like, I don't understand. Why is this not working? But these moments are images that are one step removed from plot direction and plot thrust, and they're hopefully expanding the interiority of the character and you as the character, while offering something that is experiential and something that's familiar and something that is epic, but also banal and allowing you to make meaning that is both there and not there.
- [20:38]
Gilbert Cruz
Was that something you saw when you were a kid? Had that been in your mind for decades?
- [20:43]
Romel Ross
You know, I don't know. I just. I'm a visual thinker. Just make up images and cinema is an opportunity to explore these. These spaces. And what does it mean to be in moments that are so profoundly ambiguous but yet are so beautiful and familiar?
- [21:04]
Gilbert Cruz
As a kid, you are going to the Oscars, and then you have to do something else. How do you feel about going to the Oscars and then what are you doing next?
- [21:16]
Romel Ross
Yeah, going to the Oscars is pretty exciting. Yeah, I'm really. I'm astounded that the film was nominated and that, you know, we got two Oscar nominations for a film that I think was one of the biggest risk for. For our producers to. To greenlight. Like, I think the genuine boldness is on. Is on them. I've been making art for a long time. Like, I've been doing these things. Like, this is. The scale of. This is new, but the risk to me is kind of just built in with making art and that kind of foolishness or that lack of 401k ness I had mentioned to you before. But I don't know what I'll do next, Gilbert. I think I'll definitely make more films at some point. I also have an art practice, so I have a lot of things on the back burner that have just been waiting. Some sculptures and some stuff in Hell County. I'm still filming with those guys, still photographing there, and that's kind of my most important longitudinal project. So we'll see.
- [22:18]
Gilbert Cruz
That's amazing. Is there. There's going to be a second Hale County, 10 years on.
- [22:23]
Romel Ross
We'll see. It may be. It may take so much more time because I, I was like there almost, not every day, but I was there so much for five years, you know. And I have a house there, so I can, I like have, I'm comfortable. Which makes it even easier because when like I was living in a trailer in the back of a friend's house and like a travel trailer, not like a double wide. And so I was really anxious to not be in the trailer. So I'll just go out and film, you know. But now that I have a house there, I'm like, maybe I'll just, you know, drink some matcha, just sit on the porch.
- [22:58]
Gilbert Cruz
Rommel Ross, thank you so much for joining the Book Review podcast. It's been a real delight to talk to you.
- [23:05]
Romel Ross
Gilbert Pleasure, pleasure chatting.
- [23:22]
NetCredit Ad
Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. If approved applications are typically funded the next business this day or sooner. Loans offered by Netcredit or lending partner banks and serviced by Netcredit application subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit. Com Partners. Net Credit Credit to the people.