D (2:14)

I'm a toddler now.

C (2:16)

And one thing, I'm gonna blow up your spot just a little bit. But one thing, a favorite fact about John is she. John was actually my first book friend in the book world. We met in 2015, 2016, covering the Penn Literary Gala. And I didn't know anybody and I met John just also covering it. And we've just been friends ever since. So I'm glad our paths crossed again.

D (2:37)

Was that when I introduced you to gay and Nantaliz.

C (2:40)

It is true. And gay Talies said to us, you look like you go to Vassar. And I went to a small liberal art school.

D (2:46)

So I was like, right, yeah, me too.

C (2:49)

Yeah. So, John, making book news happen and also talking us through book for joining us.

D (2:55)

Thrilled to be here.

C (2:56)

And also with us is Alexandra Alter. It's been a while since you've been on the podcast. Welcome back.

A (3:00)

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

C (3:02)

Alexandra is a books reporter for the New York Times. You write profiles of authors, features of literary trends, breaking news about the publishing industry and more. So also, you know everything.

A (3:14)

Not as much as Tina and John, but together we might know almost everything collectively if we put all of our.

C (3:21)

Collective wash together, we're close, our powers combined. So I just wanted to get together like the smartest book people I know to just debrief and talk about the year in books. And before we dive in, I just want to do a vibe check. How are you feeling about 2025? I'll start. I feel like the year was both exhausting and meh. Not that there weren't good books, but there was a. The energy seemed deflated this year. Maybe that's just me, but that's how I felt about the year.

B (3:50)

No, I fully agree with you. It felt very lackluster somehow.

A (3:56)

I disagree because I spent a lot of time at Romantasy book signings this year and you've never seen more excited people than a midnight release party for a big Romantasy novel that people have been waiting for for months. So I. In these kind of alternative sort of publishing space, yes. I found a lot of excitement happening.

C (4:18)

Yes. Keep us honest, keep us energized, Alexandra and Romantasy.

D (4:22)

I do think we should come back to that because I think sometimes what. What the publishing industry and the book business feels like an eh year in terms of just energy among those people is not the same as the energy among the readers. There were books that people were very, very excited to buy this year, regardless of whether or not we were very excited by the books. They were excited.

C (4:47)

Totally. Right. We say what's happening in the book world, but the book world is not a monolith. There are so many communities and genres, and I also think because of things like social media, increasingly, so many silos and book spaces, and they all have varying levels of energy and excitement and all of that good stuff. So that's just our general table setting. Vibe check. It's a good year. Some of us feel Exhausted. Some of us feel energized. I want to go back and characterize Big Picture the year in books. And the way I want to ask this is just for the sake of having a neat, tidy prompt. Please fill in the blank for me. 2025 was a blank year in books, or 2025 was the year of blank. I guess I'll start by saying for.

D (5:37)

Me, we'll derail it immediately.

C (5:39)

Yes, please. That's why I love open conversation. That's why you're here. For me, 2025 was the lost year in books. Again, the energy felt deflated. But one storyline that I was following along was whether or not there was going to be a big, giant breakout book of the year. And it didn't seem to me like there was one. There were big books, for sure, commercial juggernauts, things that stayed on the bestseller list. And there were critically acclaimed books, but the two did not seem to meet to me. Is that accurate? I'm thinking about previous years. There were books like James and Martyr, of course, last year, but also Chain Gang, All Stars, the Bee Sting Demon, Copperhead Trust, Hamnet, the Vanishing Half, There, There, the Underground Railroad, books that seem to rise up and kind of dominate the conversation and the culture. And I didn't feel that this way.

B (6:31)

This year, but I think you're talking about two different kinds of books. Because when I think of an it, I think of a grassroots word of mouth hit. And we did have those this year for sure.

D (6:45)

James felt ordained in a way that nothing this year did. Which doesn't mean it wasn't a year with big books.

B (6:51)

Right.

C (6:52)

What were they of books?

B (6:53)

So one of them is the Correspondent by Virginia Evans. John knows more about this book than I do, but I think it came out last April or May. It was quiet. It was from Crown. I don't think I even. I don't think it was pitched to me.

D (7:06)

I didn't see it either. I just heard that there was a lot of love for it coming from. I mean, it was grassroots. I heard that Ann Patchett, the author and bookseller, loved, loved, loved this book and that behind the scenes she kind of helped bring it to a big editor, Amy Einhorn, who picked it up at Crown. But Alexander, do you talk to Amy?

A (7:28)

Right, yeah. My understanding is that this was a debut novel by an author who had written several books and never been able to publish any of them. And it's an unusual story. It's about a woman in her 70s who writes letters to famous people like Joan Didion in Fact, Ann Patchett is one of the people she writes a letter to in the book.

C (7:45)

I kind of love those.

A (7:46)

I was lucky that Ann Patchett actually liked the book. But yeah, it started off kind of word of mouth and then I think it really picked up amongst independent booksellers who championed it and then readers and it became just this phenomenon and now it's sold hundreds of thousands of copies, which for a debut is really astonishing.

C (8:04)

So I stand corrected. There were big books, but for whatever reason, I feel like I've seen only certain spaces talking about this. I haven't seen this book. It has been like bubbling up word of mouth. Maybe this is a 2025 IT book that will peak in 2026.

D (8:19)

Maybe.

B (8:19)

But maybe MJ. Maybe we were a little snobbish about this book, to be honest with you. Can I just say it's commercial fiction. There's great commercial fiction. We tend to wrinkle our nose a little bit at that here.

D (8:32)

Yeah, I think we've gotten better.

B (8:36)

We're much better. We're much better. But you know what I'm saying.

C (8:39)

Yeah, yeah. Well, when we're recovering things, we're talking about literary conversations, literary spaces, we're talking about book awards and commercial fiction often is overlooked in those spaces and that's something that we always try to be mindful of, but things bubble up and slip through the cracks and et cetera.

B (8:53)

Right. But also, correct me if I'm wrong, John and Alexander, but I feel like these word of mouth grassroots hits are just so rare these days.

A (9:05)

I think that's right to, to MJ's point. I felt like there wasn't like every conversation is happening around this book this year, but in terms of breaking out a debut or a lesser known mid list, mid career author, it's gotten so hard. I feel like people either have an existing platform, they're celebrities, or they're already starting best selling authors. I was thinking about who the best selling authors were this year and it's Frida McFadden, the housemaid, still Rebecca Yarrow, still these people who just already have these audiences behind them. And so yeah, I think getting a new author out in front of people and getting booksellers to care and readers to care is a huge feat.

D (9:45)

One of the people that you mentioned, Rebecca Yarrows, built a grassroots audience herself outside of the book publishing industry first. Right.

A (9:53)

She did have an unusual path, it's.

D (9:55)

True, but once less and less unusual.

A (9:58)

Yeah.

D (9:58)

Senlin you this year with Alchemized, a huge book. This is a Book that I would call a grassroots hit. Why did a literary agent at one of the biggest literary agencies pick up this author? Because on a fan fiction website, this Draco Hermione fan fiction. Dramione isn't a hashtag. It probably is.

C (10:21)

I think it is. It definitely is.

D (10:23)

It had huge readership and you know that old dollar signs in the eyes and like a looney tune, it was there. But.

C (10:33)

So these are debuts. We're talking about breaking out debuts. One of the things, and the reason why I call it the Lost Year, which is not to say that there weren't good books or notable books, but for me, the year wasn't sticky. I feel like there were a bunch of big books that did come out that then you'd think would stick around and dominate the conversation, but. But didn't for whatever reason. So for instance, this is a book that dominated a certain corner of the conversation. But like Katabasis by RF Kong, huge online, huge on booktok. I think it was so anticipated, but I felt like I saw that conversation happening in our corner. We had a new Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie book that kind of bubbled up and then fell off. And people are still reading it. But when I'm looking back and thinking about what were the giant books this year, that maybe I'm being pessimistic. Oh, was a giant Oprah pic, and then that bubbled up and then kind of fell away. And that for me, is the story of 2025. It's not that things were bad for whatever reason, things weren't sticky. And I guess the last thing I would say is I don't think this is book specific. This is happening in music. There was no Song of the Summer. It's happening in movies where people are talking about how the box office is suffering. There's something in the air.

B (11:49)

But what's in the air is that so what we're watching and reading and seeing now, it's been in the works for how many years? I feel like when all this stuff was signed up, the mood was very different.

A (12:03)

Right, That's a good point.

D (12:04)

And now life cycle of a book, it takes years.

B (12:09)

And so now I think people, I mean, judging by the success of books like the Correspondent, they. They want cozy reading. Right? They don't want to be upset.

D (12:21)

And judging by their responses to our best books of the year pick where they were asking if we were okay.

A (12:26)

Yeah, true.

B (12:28)

But I think that people don't want to watch, read, see really depressing things right now.

C (12:36)

Yeah, I think that's fair.

D (12:38)

It's hard to blame them. And I also think that the people who do find it. But I think we are so far from anything vaguely resembling a monoculture anymore that to have a book that was like the book of the year. I mean, we talk about James. Yeah, for us, James was the book of 2024. But I really think that was the book of the year because Percival Everett's career was moving toward the moment where it was time for him to be honored by the literary world, by the publishing world. That does not make it the book of the year for readers. It makes it the book of the year for the literati. And that is not. I don't even think we really had one of those this year. We had anticipated titles. We had titles we all really liked. I think the gossip at the desk about who was going to pick what book for what best books list at what outlet and why they picked that and, oh, my God, how didn't we think of that? There's just. Are there too many books? This is another question.

C (13:45)

I love this. New York Times Book Review news editor asks, are there too many books?

D (13:50)

New York Times Book Review news editor asserts, there are too many books.

C (13:56)

But then also, I'm going to drop this point because I love having, like, my own perception, like, challenge. But there was a new Emily Henry novel this year. Right. And that book was huge over the summer in certain spaces, but nowhere near the monocultural fervor that I feel like I have felt for her previous books. And that was interesting to me. I don't know why. Maybe it's just what I'm looking at. But I feel like I'm on a variety of spaces for books online, and I do read a range of stuff from genre to literary fiction.

D (14:26)

This conversation has been big in the TV world, and it's time we had it in books. I think there hasn't been. I'm doing this in air quotes that you can't see there. There hasn't been since Game of Thrones, a show that everybody watched on Sunday. I think this year kind of evidences that the books world is in a similar place.

C (14:46)

So that was my assumption about the year. I called it the lost year. But I'm curious what you all think. Should we go around? I'm gonna start with you first, John. 2025 was the year of what?

D (14:57)

I also think 2025 was a lost year. Or at least I think it was a year of losses. And I' to be the Eeyore in this group, but I Do want to talk from the book industry perspective just about what I think this year has looked like for publishers. And what I think this year has looked like for publishers has been grim. Inflation has made it a lot, lot more expensive to. To make books. Mission driven nonprofit publishers lost federal funding that has made it incredibly difficult for them to buy books. And I think it's to buy manuscripts, to publish books. And I think it's important to note that they are like the grass of the publishing industry. They are what keeps this ecosystem nourished. And I think to see the funding lost for nonprofits is we're going to see that really in. They're feeling it now. Readers are going to feel it in a few years.

C (16:02)

I was going to ask. So we follow the news of funding losses, but what can we expect? Are we feeling it now? What are we thinking?

B (16:09)

I don't know about you, John, but my feeling is that for years now small independent presses have been picking up the balls where the big five publishing houses have dropped them. Because the big five are all about, you know, these one book a year authors. They get behind, right. And spend all their money on. They don't launch very many.

D (16:34)

They don't have the publicity budget to launch it. We're getting in the weeds. So let me try to unpack, untangle the big five publishers. It's industry slang for the biggest publishing houses. They are all at this point large corporations. They are conglomeratized. They, they operate like them. They place more safe bets than unsafe bets and they invest more in safe bets than unsafe bets. That includes in the literary side of things. I'm picking on the wonderful Percival Everett. But James, the amount of money they put behind James is not the same amount of money for publicity to get attention for it last year. It's not the same as they put this year for let's pick one of our best books, the director, right? A great book that absolutely was not a book that anybody was gunning to be book of the year despite the fact that they have a great team over at Summit. The small publishers do work that they don't have the money to blast everywhere to get into media outlets that really require somebody to be pestering and pestering because I don't know about y'. All. I get a lot of email and it. You need someone who is like on the clock to help push stuff through and get through the noise.

A (17:48)

And to your point earlier, John, at Percival Everett, his career took off with a small press and he was basically supported by them for years and got to do this really interesting experimental work. And then when he had something more commercial and he had kind of a legacy, he got picked up by one of the bigger conglomerates. So the small presses are really cultivating writers, discovering new talent. They've become this sort of feeding ground for the bigger companies, which will pick off the prize winners or anyone who's standing out critically. But if that pipeline gets weakened or turned off, it will be something that readers will notice.

D (18:23)

That press you talk about in particular, Gray Wolf Press, is a nonprofit, and it received federal funding from the National Endowment for the Arts. Someone to fact check me on that. I am 99.9% sure. And they may have lost it this year if that money was going toward publishing programs that were not in lockstep with the Trump administration's priorities, which is what the letters said when the publishers received them. Hearing, we will not give you these, these funds. And I think it's going to hurt literature down the line. And it's not the only thing that's happened this year that has made that kind of impact.

C (19:05)

I'm gonna quote Wendy Williams, my fave, when I say, ooh, hate to bring you down. Is there anything that we should be thinking about, looking forward to, to kind of counter this, though? I felt like that was kind of a little bit scary and bleak. What should we be doing or thinking about or watching?

D (19:21)

That was like my first bleak item. I had, like, another no. I think I love MJ's thinking on this. And I have an answer. Publishing stepped up. There were people in the publishing business that really worked very hard to counter this. The Mellon foundation, or outside the Mellon foundation, gave tons of money to poetry this year. I think they gave like 50 million. It's worth noting that Elizabeth Alexander, who runs the Mellon foundation, is a poet. But $50 million to poetry organizations is. That's a lot of money. They're not the only one, in fact, a donor to, I think it was Restless Books. They have an immigrant writing prize. One of the people on the board funded that prize in order to make sure that it didn't go under this year. Alexandra and Liz Harris, our other book business reporter, did some wonderful reporting on bookstores getting canned goods to people who were food stamp recipients during the government shutdown. The book business stepped up. They tried to do good work. They always do. But you saw places where there was a hole in the ground that they looked at and said, we have to fill this.

C (20:28)

I'm glad we have a little uplift. A little uplift here. I was feeling bad but you're right. You're absolutely right. What about you, Alexandra? 2025 was. What type of year was the year of blank?

A (20:38)

To me, it was really the year of fan culture infiltrating mainstream publishing, just like it has in so many areas of culture. But the arrival of three Harry Potter fanfiction novels transformed into romantasy novels was, I think, a stunning turn, and not just because they started as fan fiction. We've seen this before with big books like Fifty Shades of Grey started off as Twilight fan fiction, but what was different was that the publishers moved really quickly to snap up these books that had huge audiences online and marketed them as Harry Potter fanfiction, which is like getting you into a little bit of a copyright law gray area, but without crossing any lines. It just really embraced the fact that these were works that evolved out of.

D (21:25)

That online culture because the readers are embracing it. Right. This was after Reylo Ali Hazelwood did.

A (21:31)

Kylo Ren Rey fanfiction from Star wars and a lot of other romance writers have come through that.

C (21:37)

And that was a few years ago, but this was the year of Harry Potter. Dramione, can you tell us what those books were?

A (21:42)

We already talked about one of them, Alchemize, which I think everyone expected it to be big just because it came with this existing audience.

C (21:49)

It's like the biggest, biggest debut of.

A (21:52)

The year, for sure.

C (21:52)

Debut also in fan fiction spaces is like one of the biggest, most refreshing, most fan pieces of fan fiction, period.

A (22:00)

Yes, it was packaged as this kind of blockbuster fantasy romance novel with dark fantasy elements, which is what everyone's super into right now. But to see it really rise in print, I mean, it's a long book. It's almost a thousand pages long. People are devouring it. And it's sold more than 700,000 copies, which is a huge number for what.

C (22:22)

11, 12 weeks on the bestseller list straight.

A (22:25)

And so these are readers who have either read it for free online already, and many of them just really wanted it in print on their bookshelf, or there are people that heard about it on Booktok. And so to me, the story of 2025 was dramiony.

B (22:39)

This is vaguely depressing to me because this is publishers just giving readers what they know they want.

A (22:47)

That's true. And it's not discovery of taking.

B (22:49)

It's not discovery. It's not taking flyers on new writers.

D (22:53)

Remember the gatekeeper debate? Who won?

A (22:57)

The fans won.

D (22:59)

Well, I think there was a lot of argument on Twitter. Do you remember that?

C (23:04)

Now known as X.

D (23:05)

Now known as X. There were often conversations about publishers are gatekeepers. They are keeping types of literature out, they are keeping types of writers out, they're keeping writers of color out, they're keeping queer writers out. I think there has been an obvious course correction in the publishing industry and we've covered it. But I also think that in some ways publishers have almost said, well, we know we're going to get money if we give the people what they want. So let's give the people what they want and then we'll make money.

A (23:39)

Right.

D (23:39)

And that sort of tautological decision is in some ways a. An abdication of responsibility.

B (23:47)

Right. But now we go back to small presses again because as the big presses are doing this, this is where the small places are picking this stuff up.

D (23:57)

This is a small press fan club now.

B (23:58)

It is. This is indeed.

D (24:00)

We have hats or we will.

B (24:03)

I was pleasantly surprised to see I keep stats on everything the book review does during the course of the year.

D (24:09)

Because she knows everything.

C (24:10)

Exactly.

B (24:10)

But we reviewed books by over 130 small presses. That is a lot.

D (24:18)

And that's like what a 40th of how many exist? There are so many.

B (24:23)

I know.

D (24:23)

And they do such wonderful work. And it is really. Go to your public library as long as they exist and ask your favorite librarian what small presses they love. Watch them beam at you.

C (24:38)

So this is a shout out. Yeah. You, you have your marching orders. Read small presses and also go to your library.

B (24:43)

Right.

C (24:45)

We are going to continue with our conversation, but first I think we should take a quick break.

E (24:58)

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast. I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.

C (25:30)

She sent me a year long subscription so I have access to all the games. We'll do wordle mini spelling bee.

E (25:36)

It has given us a personal connection.

D (25:39)

We exchange articles and so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

B (25:44)

The coverage, the options.

A (25:45)

It's not just news. Such a diversified disc. I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes and we even just shared a recipe the other day. The New York Times contributes to our quality time together.

D (26:00)

You have all of that information at your fingertips.

B (26:02)

It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons.

D (26:05)

It was such a cool and thoughtful gift. We're reading the same stuff. We're making the same food.

E (26:12)

We're on the same page.

B (26:15)

Connect even more with someone you care about. Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift@nytimes.com gift.

C (26:27)

And we're back. This is the Book Review podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm talking to my colleagues Tina Jordan, Alexandra Alter, and John Maher, and we're talking about 2025 in books. Alexandra, you mentioned it was the year of fan fiction, but can you talk to me a little bit about romantasy overall? That was such a huge, huge trend. Are we still in a space where romantasy is king, queen, and dragon? What's happening? What are the big trends in publishing right now? What are the big genres? Talk to me.

A (27:01)

Such a great question. I think every publisher is trying to figure that out right now. Has this romantasy craze been saturated? Is it peaking? Rebecca Yarros, the author of the Dragon Military Academy Romantasy books, she sold more than 7 million copies this year and just print and digital, not counting audio and way above last year. So certainly on her side, there's a huge appetite. Authors like Sarah Moss, a huge appetite. Some newcomers are breaking out, like Kelly Hart. So there's still a big chunk of people who want to read these books. I think the question is, have they now published and bought too many of them? What's coming in the next few years? Publishers have started to talk about maybe the romanticy starting to fizzle. And what people really love right now, to my great surprise and bit of alarm, is dark romance, which is like mafia romance. Shadow daddies, who I learned unfortunately, are like bad guys who are really terrible, but they love the heroine. So that makes them kind of good.

D (28:02)

What?

B (28:03)

Yes.

A (28:03)

So dark romance, this is another thing that took off really in fanfiction a lot in self publishing. And once publishers notice, okay, people do want to read these things. A lot of them are, like, quite taboo and get into some morally gray areas, let's say.

C (28:17)

Yeah, I was gonna say it's from my understanding, dark romance is a lot of consent dubious.

A (28:23)

Yes, there is that or kidnappings and things that I think publishers would have been really nervous about publishing a few years ago, but now that there's a real market for it and they can make money, you know, it's suddenly we can take a risk on that. I think they've seen things like 50 shades of gray, which no one had seen a book like that at the front of Target and Barnes and Noble before. So they're always pushing the envelope and romance is one of those places where they do that. But yeah, I think, I think that market is shifting quite a bit. It's been a really tough time for nonfiction, unless you're Mel Robbins. Her Let Them Theory book has sold millions of copies this year. It came out last year, but it' still on the top of the bestseller list. But I think when it comes to other subjects, there's two things happening. One is people are really exhausted by the news and the news cycle and they just maybe don't want to engage with anything too serious. And there's also people turning to like ChatGPT or YouTube if they want a recipe or they have a question or they're planning a trip. It's like the information ecosystem has kind of morphed in a way that books aren't the go to place always for that kind of thing.

C (29:28)

It's interesting to me because we've talked about GPT challenging publishers, challenging Google, but I never thought about how it might challenge long form nonfiction in books and.

A (29:37)

Particularly in those books or any. Anything practical, a travel guide, a field guide, just things of that nature where you used to want to have a solid authority and now maybe the Internet can provide an answer.

D (29:50)

So what you're saying is Times Cooking needs to make an Andy Barigani bot.

A (29:54)

I mean, that's not a bad idea.

D (29:56)

That will solve the problem.

A (29:57)

And Andy Bots, we're probably working on that.

C (30:00)

This is the start of our own IRL dystopian novel. The bots have told us to cook. Blah blah blah, blah. All of humanity is.

D (30:07)

Anyway, I'm really glad you brought up nonfiction because one of the conversations that Tina and I have been having over the past few weeks in particular is that really, really meaty nonfiction. Nonfiction that tells a story and gets deep into the thick of why that story is worth telling is so rewarding. And where is it?

B (30:29)

Where is it? And that was what I was going to say about this year for me was that there was just a dearth of really satisfying nonfiction. And there's a piece of me. You and I have had this discussion, John. I wondered if publishers were just wary to schedule things for this year because they didn't know what the mood in the country was going to be after the election. They're surprised after every presidential election, it seems, by what becomes popular. And so I thought maybe they're holding things back. And yet we're looking at catalogs and seeing things for next year, and I'm not seeing it for next year.

C (31:10)

Can I pull this apart a little bit? I'm curious what you mean by meaty nonfiction. What are past examples and something like David Grann? Okay.

B (31:19)

I mean, there were some. Don't get me wrong. It's not that there was none of this, but, yeah, a book. Like a David Grann book.

C (31:24)

Do you think it's that? Is it the meatiness that we were missing? That was a long book, and I feel like one book we talked a lot about, it was one of our 10 best, was a Marriage at Sea, for instance. Very thorough, very in depth, but slim.

A (31:36)

Right, right.

B (31:37)

Where were the rest of the Marriage at Seas? Because usually there would have been any number of books of narrative nonfiction, especially.

D (31:46)

With shipwrecks in particular, With Shabreks in particular.

B (31:49)

Yes, but there are usually a lot of those. There's so many skilled writers who do those so well, and yet I just felt like we didn't really see them.

C (31:59)

So for you, then, what did that do to the year?

B (32:02)

Overall, it was interesting. I kept reading further and looking and casting more widely and thinking that I was missing things and asking people on the desk, should I read this? Should I read that? But I felt like, John, I felt like you and I and other people on the desk sort of all feel the same way.

D (32:21)

Yeah. And I've heard this from editors, too. I've heard from editors that the market isn't there, that they feel like their international colleagues don't want to buy it, and they feel like the readership isn't really there. I mean, the number of times that I have heard nonfiction editors say serious nonfiction isn't selling. Even the ones who came up to me in London Book Fair earlier this year and said, don't believe the hype. It's gonna sell. When I talk to them at the end of the summer or before the Frankfurt Book Fair in fall, the two big book fairs of the year, they were like. I think they were right about it not selling. Some of it is a mystery, even to the publishers. The human mind is a mystery. Why we choose what we choose. We can try to be anthropological about it as much as we can, but sometimes it's just. It is or isn't in the water. But I think a lot of it is just like, people are wiped out. They're wiped out. And it is a serious investment to think about complex history, whether it's narrative or not, complex journalism, whether it's narrative or not. The nonfiction that has sold this year, a lot of the nonfiction that has sold this year really well has been self help.

A (33:38)

Yeah.

D (33:38)

And. And I think it's because people want to be told, yes, that's it. You're doing it. Rather than here are some people who didn't do it really, really bloodily.

B (33:50)

It's.

D (33:51)

I don't know, maybe it's just too much right now.

C (33:53)

Alexandra, you just chimed in and said, yep. What are you noticing? What are you thinking?

A (33:57)

Well, interestingly, we already talk the, the less you know, the let them theory and why that's such a hit. But I just talked to someone at Bookscan who was telling me that religious titles are up quite significantly. Sales of the Bible are up quite a lot. And anything in the kind of self help genre, that's where they're seeing the strength in non fiction. So I think, yeah, people want to be told that they're going to be okay. And so I want to be told. And coloring books are back.

C (34:23)

Adult coloring books are bad.

A (34:24)

Yes. People want to either be coloring or to be told that they will be okay.

C (34:29)

Because adult coloring, the books that was like a giant trend in what, 2016.

B (34:32)

And then kind of fell away also in the 1960s. I mean, it's a trend like every 20 years.

C (34:37)

Interesting.

A (34:38)

Yeah. What does it say about this moment that people want to.

D (34:41)

Is there a geopolitical crisis in the Columbia?

B (34:43)

I don't know. But I remember once finding an article in the Times archives about adult coloring books in the 1960s in the Big summer, was like the John Birch Society.

C (34:54)

Readers contain multitudes.

D (34:56)

I guess.

B (34:56)

So.

A (34:57)

One interesting exception, and I have to say the strength of the sales really surprised me, is Kamala Harris's memoir, 107 Days. It has sold, I think, more than 600,000 copies, which at a moment when people probably don't want to think too much about last year's election and political books are a really tricky area right now. There seems to just be a ton of interest in this book.

D (35:17)

A book tour.

A (35:19)

She added another leg of her book tour for next year.

D (35:21)

18 dates.

B (35:23)

Yeah, I don't understand this either.

D (35:26)

Nobody. I feel like this is absolutely baffling to me in part because it's like it's such a specific memoir and maybe that's part of why it did work, that there's still this like, we want to know what was going on in her head, what was going on in their heads. Maybe that's it.

B (35:47)

The thing about this memoir, too, is there's not A lot of news in it. We know almost everything in it. So what propelled these sales?

A (35:55)

I haven't had a chance to read it because I am often limited in my reading by what I'm writing about like that week. And so things get pushed back. But people say it's kind of a page turner because you do get to see the minute by minute decisions and their impact. And I think the fact that Geraldine Brooks worked with her on it, normally you would maybe not even credit your ghostwriter or keep it a secret, but certainly getting someone who's a novelist and a real writer and a real writer and a journalist who can craft a narrative like that, I think that made a difference.

C (36:24)

So maybe it's not people are coming to it for specifically the news, but they're coming to it for a yarn, right? Yeah.

B (36:31)

And what was it like in mind? What most politician memoirs, even big best.

A (36:36)

Selling ones, are like, no. No disclosures whatsoever.

B (36:40)

Or even if they're disclosures and, or even if they wrote it themselves, they're not usually beautifully written, let me just put it that way.

C (36:49)

So that's our sense of the year overall. For me, I was like, it was the lost year. But though I've been corrected. John, it was the year of losses, though there are ways to combat them. Alexandra, it was the year of fan fiction and romantasy. Tina, it was the year of wavering nonfiction. Right now I'm just curious. I want to pan out a little bit more and ask what were other big storylines or news events that you think about when you think about 2025 in general, specifically in books.

D (37:19)

It's Tina's turn to start.

B (37:20)

Oh, no. Well, I think. I think it might be the Mr. Beast James Patterson book collaboration deal. I could not believe. How popular.

C (37:31)

Can you tell us more? What was this?

B (37:32)

Well, they're work. They're doing a book together. Like I'm unclear about how the James Patterson books honestly really come together, but you know, he collaborates with all kinds of famous people. A lot of Hollywood folks did this.

C (37:47)

Deal feel different than other types of big celebrity writer collaborators. I'm thinking about like Hillary Clinton and Louise Penny.

D (37:54)

Right.

B (37:54)

It did feel different.

C (37:55)

Why?

B (37:56)

I don't know why. It's like it was so buzzy. Everyone was talking about it and they were talking about it for three months. Go figure.

A (38:04)

This is interesting. It kind of goes back to what we were discussing about publishers looking at some what's happening in culture and wanting a piece of it. And in this case, this was James Patterson, who I think is an Incredible business person, is super smart about knowing where the market's going, getting his hand into every single genre you can think of. He's done books with Dolly Parton, with Bill Clinton. And so I think he thought maybe he needed some younger readers. I'm making a sort of assumption here, but obviously Mr. Beast is a huge YouTube star and getting any of his fan base over into the James Patterson ecosystem, he has his young adult books, or they're actually middle grade, he has huge readership there. But I think there was maybe a little gap in the middle with 20 somethings or teens. And I mean, this was the first one of the first things that I've written about where my kids were like, oh, you're gonna get to interview Mr. Beast. I was like, but they were actually interested in that, so they didn't know who James Patterson was.

D (38:57)

This entire novel concept feels like a Mad Lib. And that's how I felt when I was hearing about it at the London Book Fair, when it was the book that everybody was talking about. The Biden memoir, by the way, was also on sale at the London Book fair. And the Mr. Beast, James Pattinson book was the one that people were talking about. And I just, I. Again, it feels like a mad lib gone off the rails to me.

C (39:21)

Okay, so that's one news event. James Patterson, Mr. Beast. What about you, Alexandra? Is there something, a news event, a storyline that really stands out to you? When you think about the year that we haven't mentioned mentioned so far, I.

A (39:32)

Actually thought it was an interesting year for posthumous releases. We had Joan Didion's therapy notes, which were fascinating, but also a really strange publication for somebody who curated her public image so carefully. I think there was a lot of debate about whether she would have wanted these diaries published.

C (39:50)

Tell me a little bit more about what that publication was, what was strange about it.

A (39:54)

Yeah, what is this book? She left these diaries behind. So clearly, I think her publisher and agent felt like, well, if she had any objections to these being published, she knew what she was doing. She wouldn't have left them in a filing cabinet like this. But she had no explicit instructions about whether or not she wanted to publish them. And they're very personal, particularly about her daughter Quintana, who. Who died tragically and from a medical condition. But Didian had always been, even in her most personal memoirs, so protective of Quintana and not talked about her alcohol issues. And so to see some of that behind the scenes, what she was really thinking, it gives you real insight into her published writing. And her memoirs. But I think it also made some people in her inner circle a little uncomfortable. So it was just. I thought it was a fascinating example of, like, where do we draw the line with posthumous publications? And how much privacy does is an author owed, particularly when she didn't say, don't publish these.

C (40:50)

Alexandra, you mentioned posthumous books, plural.

A (40:53)

What were other ones? I was also thinking of the Harper Lee collection of stories, which to me that was interesting just because, as everyone knows, late in her career, a sort of prequel, which was kind of a sequel to To Kill a Mockingbird, came out. And there was a lot of debate at the time over what her intentions were with that book. She'd had it sitting around for decades. Why is it coming out now when she' swe haven't heard from her for so long? People thought she might have been pressured to publish it. So anything new by a writer of her stature, when we'd had that conversation previously about what she wanted published or not, this was not anywhere near as fraught of a conversation. But it was interesting to see more from her. And yeah, just back to, you know, when these books come out, it always I raises interesting questions about a writer's legacy and do we want to see every last scrap that they wrote and how does that impact our thinking?

C (41:43)

John, you're up. What's your other news event? Notable thing from the year.

D (41:47)

Mj, you're never going to have me back because I am just so depressing.

C (41:52)

Oh, God, where are you taking us?

D (41:54)

It's not going to be that bad. I actually think this is going to be fun to talk about, but it's actually about. And not to navel gaze, but books media. This year was a year of just. It was a hard year for books media. And I want to pin it to two things. I want to pin it to the summer reading list created by AI with fake books that was published in the Chicago Sometimes and maybe one other paper.

B (42:20)

It was syndicated.

D (42:21)

It was syndicated. So there was a list of books that were not books by authors who are authors, that was published, as, I believe, a promotion in multiple papers because it was syndicated and it was all slop. And that was exceedingly embarrassing for everybody involved, including authors who were like, why is my name being attached to this thing? I didn't do? And what do you mean? It's in the Chicago Sun Times. So there's that. And I think that was dismaying and in a sort of absurdist way, but dismaying in a sort of existentialist way was the AP deciding that they were no longer going to run book reviews that were syndicated by many, many, many papers that cannot afford their own books. Critics. And I think this is an indication of a downturn that I think we've all known has been coming in certain places for some time. We all know that the media has struggles and the book publishing business has its struggles, but this year, those two things, they weren't back to back exactly. And I can't say it was June and then July, but to me, it felt like a one, two punch. And I was holding like ice to my jaw a little after that. I don't know if any of you felt the same way.

A (43:36)

I think the shift in the way people discover books has been so extreme recently. It's gone from Goodreads to Book Talk to Amazon Reviews. And yeah, that was a depressing turn.

B (43:48)

But it's something we struggle with. Here we are, a book review. We've been a book review for over 125 years. If people aren't reading reviews to figure out what they're going to read next.

D (44:03)

What are they doing?

A (44:04)

Right?

B (44:05)

Like, how do we. Where do we meet them?

D (44:07)

Yeah, what are they reading? And how can we give it to them so they don't go to ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT to generate a cookbook and best books list.

C (44:21)

I'm gonna try to be positive and turn this car around. I feel like that challenge, though, is something that we've been talking a lot about here at the Times, and it's inspired a lot of innovation. The fact that we have these types of chatty podcasts, that we have a book club. We've been doing really incredible service lists and find your next book guides and quizzes to find books where we're engaging with readers.

B (44:43)

Oh, I think it's been great. And I think we at the Times in the books department are thoughtfully trying a lot of things and experimenting. And in a way, it's kind of an exciting time because we can just dream up what we want to try.

C (45:03)

So that's our. Yeah. 20, 25. Oh, man, what a year.

A (45:08)

So long. It was such a long year.

D (45:10)

Are we there yet?

B (45:11)

Is it over yet?

D (45:12)

Just about.

C (45:13)

Just about, I guess. My last question before we go. I'm putting everyone on the spot. Tell me one good thing. Tell me one good thing.

D (45:20)

I'm sorry you had to do this, mj. I know it's all my fault.

C (45:25)

This could be a book that you love, that you just want to shout out something that bubbled up and you're like, yes, I Loved this. An online conversation, something that has delighted you. Tell me something good.

A (45:36)

Two of my favorite authors released books that they had spent 20 years either working on or trying to get published. Karin Desai's the Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny. I got to interview her about the book and it was just. Here's somebody who did nothing else for the last two decades but create this incredible story. And I just found that so inspiring that there are still people who are willing to do that. And then Helen DeWitt, the author of the Last Samurai, came out with a book that she wrote about 20 years ago and has been trying to get published for that long. And it was extraordinary to see that project finally arrive.

C (46:09)

I love that. What about you, John?

D (46:12)

I confess that I am the somewhat much maligned, kind of very online white male reader who loves Lashlo Krauschnachi. And I am so sweet.

A (46:25)

This is great here for you to see.

D (46:28)

My man, my personal friend. I wish. Call me. Call us, please. We'd love an interview. Win the Nobel Prize in Literature. I rewatched Verkmeister Harmony's the wonderful Bela Tarr adaptation of the Melancholy of Resistance, or a portion of it afterward. It's amazing. You should all watch it if you haven't. The Chaten Tango, which in English we would probably call Satantango.

C (46:57)

We talked about this episode. We did a books book awards debrief. And whether it's shot and Tango. Satantango. How you say that was a big point of conversation.

D (47:05)

That film is nine hours or something like seven hours. I wouldn't recommend that. The other one is like two and a half. Do that.

C (47:12)

What about you? One good thing, Tina.

B (47:13)

One good thing. Okay. As an unabashed genre fan, I really loved the spread and popularity of what I'm gonna call cozy genre fiction. And I'm not just talking, like, cozy romance, but cozy mysteries. There's cozy horror. Did you know there was such a thing? There's cozy fantasies. And I do think it speaks to what we were talking about earlier, that people, they just want to read something that's going to make them happy. They just want to read something that's not going to distress them. Right. But a lot of it is really good, and I was thrilled to see it.

C (47:50)

Can you give us some recipes?

D (47:51)

I will throw one in here for you, Tina. This is a cozy horror. It's a comic book. It's called Beneath the Trees Where Nobody Sees. And it was a breakout hit from, I believe, last year, and it won not the Eisner, but the other big comics prize this year at New York Comic Con, which they're gonna hate me for forgetting the name of the prize on this podcast, but I read it on the way back from New York Comic Con after it won.

B (48:17)

Let me give you the big mainstream example, and that's the Richard Osmond Thursday Murder Club books. Those are 100% cozy mysteries. There's nothing that's gonna make you blanch.

A (48:29)

Tina I'll tell you my favorite cozy cat fantasy. It was called I Will Prescribe youe A Cat, about a pharmacy in Tokyo where if you're sick, you go and they prescribe you a cat. And there's a sequel called I Will Prescribe youe Another Cat.

B (48:43)

I'm so there.

D (48:45)

The first cat.

A (48:46)

I'm so there.

D (48:47)

It's better than the comic with the murderous teddy bear.

C (48:50)

I think, unfortunately, we're running out of time, so I think we should wrap up. But I just wanna say a huge, huge thank you. Tina, Alexandra, John, this was so fun. The year was a rough year, but this conversation, great, uplifting, and I feel like delightful.

A (49:03)

Thank you so much.

B (49:04)

Thank you for having us.

C (49:05)

And thank you for our listeners, for joining us in this adventure, for listening with us all this year. We will be back next week with our book club. We're reading what We can know by Ian McEwan. We hope you'll join us, but until next time, happy reading. Foreign.

E (49:26)

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