458. Harnessing the Power of Regret with Dan Pink

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics

Episode: 458. Harnessing the Power of Regret with Dan Pink
Release Date: December 31, 2024
Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Dan Pink

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Introduction

In Episode 458 of The Brainy Business, host Melina Palmer delves into the intricate emotions that drive consumer behavior, focusing on the profound impact of regret. Joined by bestselling author Dan Pink, the conversation explores the multifaceted nature of regret and its potential as a catalyst for personal and professional growth.

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Guest Introduction and Background

Time Stamp: [03:47]

Dan Pink introduces himself as a seasoned writer based in Washington, D.C., with over two decades of experience in authoring books on business, work, and human behavior. He emphasizes his dedication to distilling complex social science concepts into actionable insights that enhance both personal lives and business strategies.

Dan Pink:
"For the last 20 years, I've been writing books about business and work behavior, mining social science to help people think differently and live better."
[04:06]

Exploring Dan Pink's Diverse Works

Time Stamp: [07:22]

Melina Palmer highlights Dan Pink's versatile portfolio, including his graphic novel The Adventures of Johnny Bunko. Dan elaborates on his inspiration to bridge the gap between traditional book formats and the engaging, narrative-driven style of Japanese manga.

Dan Pink:
"I wanted to teach enduring principles through captivating stories, making complex ideas accessible and enjoyable."
[07:39]

Advice for Aspiring Writers

Time Stamp: [14:32]

Dan Pink offers invaluable advice to budding authors and content creators. He advocates for gradual progression, likening writing a book to training for a marathon—emphasizing the importance of "getting the reps" through consistent practice before embarking on larger projects.

Dan Pink:
"Start with smaller projects like an email newsletter. Consistency is key to improving your craft."
[14:32]

He further advises writers to critically assess whether their ideas warrant a full-length book, urging them to consider the depth and longevity of their topics.

Dan Pink:
"Ask yourself, 'Is this really a book?' and 'Do I want to live with this idea forever?'"
[19:32]

Main Topic: The Power of Regret

Time Stamp: [23:42]

Transitioning to the episode's core subject, Melina Palmer introduces Dan Pink's book, The Power of Regret. They explore the misconception that regret is inherently negative and discuss its potential to drive positive change.

Melina Palmer:
"We tend to think of regrets as a bad thing, but is there any value in it for us personally and as a species?"
[01:12]

Dan Pink's Research on Regret

Time Stamp: [29:42]

Dan Pink details his comprehensive research on regret, including the American Regret Project and the World Regret Survey. His findings reveal that despite cultural and demographic differences, individuals worldwide share four core types of regrets.

Dan Pink:
"People seem to have the same four core regrets over and over again around the world."
[32:38]

The Four Types of Regret

Time Stamp: [34:06]

Dan categorizes regret into four distinct types, each serving as a valuable indicator for personal development:

1. Foundation Regrets

   • Description: Regrets about not building a stable foundation early in life, such as financial mismanagement or neglecting health.
   • Example:
     Dan Pink:
     "I spent too much and saved too little, and now I'm broke."
     [34:06]

2. Boldness Regrets

   • Description: Regrets stemming from not taking risks or seizing opportunities.
   • Example:
     Dan Pink:
     "If only I'd taken the chance."
     [34:06]

3. Moral Regrets

   • Description: Regrets related to not acting according to one's moral compass.
   • Example:
     Dan Pink:
     "If only I'd done the right thing."
     [34:06]

4. Connection Regrets

   • Description: Regrets about failing to maintain or nurture important relationships.
   • Example:
     Dan Pink:
     "If only I've reached out."
     [34:06]

Handling and Learning from Regret

Time Stamp: [37:04]

Dan Pink emphasizes that regret, when properly managed, can be a powerful tool for personal growth and decision-making. He distinguishes between regrets of action (choices made) and regrets of inaction (opportunities missed), advocating for a balanced approach to processing these emotions.

Dan Pink:
"Regret is one of the most common emotions we have. If we confront it, we can use it to make better decisions and find more meaning in life."
[38:40]

Notable Quotes

1. On Regret's Ubiquity and Utility

   • Dan Pink:
     "Regret is normal. It is exceedingly common. It's one of the most common emotions that human beings experience."
     [27:01]

2. On Feelings and Thinking

   • Dan Pink:
     "Feelings are signals. They're data, they're information."
     [39:21]

3. On Confronting Discomfort

   • Dan Pink:
     "Sometimes we should be running toward discomfort. That's how we grow."
     [43:28]

Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Time Stamp: [44:46]

As the conversation wraps up, Melina Palmer shares her personal reflections on the book, highlighting how The Power of Regret resonated with her experiences. She encourages listeners to reflect on their own regrets, particularly in the area of connections, to foster meaningful relationships.

Melina Palmer:
"If you're not happy, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It's normal."
[41:48]

Dan Pink reinforces the importance of using regret constructively, urging individuals to view discomfort as an opportunity for growth rather than something to avoid.

Dan Pink:
"Reframe discomfort as an opportunity. That's a psychologically healthy and strategic way to process these kinds of things."
[44:58]

How to Connect and Learn More

Listeners are directed to Dan Pink's website, danpink.com, for additional resources, including his bi-weekly newsletter and social media updates under the handle @DanielPink. Melina Palmer also invites audience engagement through social media, encouraging followers to share their thoughts and reflections on regret.

Melina Palmer:
"Give Dan a tweet love and share what you enjoyed about the book or the episode."
[45:59]

Upcoming Episodes

Melina Palmer teases the next episode featuring Jody Wellman, author of You Only Die Once, promising another insightful discussion on living a purposeful life.

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Final Note:
For those interested in exploring the psychology of regret and its implications on consumer behavior and personal development, Episode 458 of The Brainy Business offers a comprehensive and enlightening discussion. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and check out the show notes for links to related episodes and resources.

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Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Hey there Melina. Here, I'm excited to share. I'm teaching two virtual courses in Applied Behavioral Economics which are enrolling now. Advanced concepts of Behavioral Economics and Internal Communication and Change Management. So if you're interested, don't delay, learn more and enroll at HBL. Like Human Behavior Lab dot TAMU. Like Texas A&M University EDU. Again, that's HBL dot TAMU EDU and click on Certificate program when you're ready. Let's start the show. Welcome to episode 458 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy Today's episode is all about the Power of Regret with Dan Pink. Ready? Let's get started.

[Dan Pink]

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[Melina Palmer]

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Did you know that hashtag no regrets has 4.6 million posts on Instagram? And hilariously, the hashtag no regerts R E G e R t s has almost 70,000 posts. And most of them don't appear to be ironic. We tend to think of regrets as a bad thing, that we need to remove them from our lives and live a life with no regrets. But is that actually right? Why do we feel regret anyway? Is there any value in it for us personally and as a species? In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the amazing Dan Pink to discuss his book the Power of Regret. He was kind enough to also chat with me about one of his other books, Drive, which I absolutely love. I cited it in my book what yout Employees need and Can't Tell youl, which came out in the same year as the Power of Regret. So it was really top of mind when we did this interview in 2022. This refreshed episode will air on New Year's Eve 2024 and in the spirit of resolutions and reflect felt like a great way to kick off 2025. It is also the perfect transition to the brand new episode that's coming out later this week, the very first of the year, with Jody Wellman discussing her book you Only Die Once. Now, while that may sound depressing, it's actually about how we need to live our lives while we have the chance and not be waiting until tomorrow or next week or next year. I think you can see why I chose to use this one to kick off the year and why Conversation with Dan Pink about the power of regret and how it's actually good for us was the perfect refresh for this week. As you listen, whether it's when this airs on December 31st or some other time in the future, I encourage you to take some time to reflect on your past year, your upcoming goals, your own regrets, and what you can do today to make your next year the best it can be. Don't forget that there are links for my top related past episodes and books waiting for you in the show notes for this episode, which are found within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 458. All right, let's talk about the power of regret. Dan Pink, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Dan Pink]

Thank you, thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely. So, so delighted for you to be here. You have so many amazing books. We're going to really be digging deep on one of them today. But for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about who you are and your background?

[Dan Pink]

I am a writer who lives and works in Washington, D.C. and for the last 20 years I've been writing books about, I don't know, sort of somewhere about something about business and work and behavior and, you know, in the last 10 or 12 years, really trying to look at large bodies of social science, the kind of stuff that your listeners love, and see if we can mine it for useful ways to think about the world differently and do our live our lives a little bit better, work a little bit smarter.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah. And your background is pretty diverse as far as speechwriting for Al Gore and all sorts of stuff. Do you want to share? How does that even tie in? How'd you kind of jump around from the life you've lived?

[Dan Pink]

Your listeners can't see me throwing up my hands in uncertainty. But there is, I know this will come as a shock. There was no great strategic plan underneath anything I've done in my entire life. And I actually think that's typical for most people. And I actually think that it's useful for most people. For me, it took a while to it took a little bit longer than some people to figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up. So I, you know, and I also sort of my interest changed somewhat in my early ish adulthood. So I was keenly interested in politics for a long time. And as you alluded to, I worked in politics for a while, actually went to law school in part because I Was interested in politics, went to law school, got a law degree, ended up working in politics, did some policy stuff, and then just kind of fell into writing speeches because I think it was largely because I was a pretty fast typist. And I ended up doing that reasonably well. And I did it for a while. And then in my early 30s, I decided that I didn't want to work in politics for the rest of my life. And I also noticed that for most of my life, I mean, literally since I was a teenager, I was always quote, unquote, writing on the side. I was writing articles and essays and things on the side in the way that some people might play golf or tennis or backgammon or something like that, basically as kind of like a thing I did as a hobby. And I finally realized in my early 30s that what I was doing on the side, probably I should try to take it should be doing. Should be what I'm doing at the center. And that's what I started doing. I left my job. My wife did not leave her job. My wife did not give up our health insurance. And we said, hey, let's see if we can, you know, I can do my own writing and see how it works. And that was. That was over 20 years ago now. And I've just tried to just sort of hack out a living by writing stuff that I'm keenly, keenly keenly interested in because I know that I'm not that special. And if I'm keenly interested in something, other people be keenly interested in me.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely.

The. I will disagree though with the. You're not that special. I think that you have a special gift for finding connections in things that others might not. Which I definitely found in Drive and the Power of Regret just in reading. Yeah, it's continuing to dig and find the. So what? And then in a way that people can relate to, I think is really a gift that not everyone can.

Can do.

Yeah. So you have five New York Times bestsellers and also the. So the, the manga comic book. I mean, I don't know if you get to talk about that very often, but like, how did that even become a thing?

[Dan Pink]

Well, that's another book that I wrote and it is called the. It's a. It's it's like, what is it for 14, 15 years old. 13, 14 years old. Now, it's a book called the Adventures of Johnny Bunko, the last career guide you'll ever need. And it is a 180 page graphic novel written in the Japanese comic form of manga. And my theory of the case here was that, that if you look at what's going even now, but if you look especially then what was going on in Japan, that comics were a much wider art form than they are here in the States, that people would write here in the United States, comics are typically superheroes, fantasy, some like sort of childish stuff. And in Japan there is that, no question. But it's also just a wider birth of material that is, that is chronicled and described and explained in their distinctive comic forms. So there'll be like financial guides and relationship guides and I mean, I have a book on my desk over there that I was about to read. It's basically a history written in graphic form. And I said, well, wait a second, they can do it in Japan, we can do it here. And so I said, you know, what I wanted to do was because there's so much tactical, immediate information about careers and jobs online, what I wanted to do was say, what can a book do that the tactical information available online cannot? And what I thought it could do is teach people some enduring principles, principles that don't go out of style. And I could do it in a way that used this medium to tell a story in a captivating way. And people could sort of. People could get the big ideas in a brief and fun read. And so that was the book that I. That was the book that I wrote. And, you know, it's done pretty well. It continues to sell. It's one of those things, I think with any kind of creative product you sometimes are, you know, whether it's a. It's music or visual art or theater or film or tv, you're sometimes surprised by who your audience is. And for me, that the book was. I said the audience for this book are 20 somethings just starting their career. And what I found out is the audience of the book was different. It was much younger audience. So even middle schoolers, high schoolers. Yeah, we got on, we got like a number of awards for, from like the American Library association. And was the other one American Library association, one of them, sort of like best books for teens kind of thing. And it was used, it was used in literacy programs, it was used in prisons. And so it ended up finding an audience that was much younger than I originally expected. Which itself is interesting because what it suggests to me is that some of these younger people are actually thinking about what is work, what do I want to do when I grow up, what is what, what makes, you know, how do I figure out this weird thing that all these Adults are doing called work.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, that's. That is fascinating. I, In a previous, like my corporate role, I guess I used to volunteer with a company called. Or a nonprofit called Washington Business Week, where you'd have high school students go live on a college campus for a week and learn about business and create their little companies. And so I was the advisor for different companies for, you know, three years in a row. And the we, you know, joking, lovingly call it nerd camp, as you would go and learn about business for a week. But I could definitely. I have firsthand met some of those teens who are really, I'm sure now doing amazing things, that it's been 10 years since I was doing that.

[Dan Pink]

But I still think I'm right about the medium. I still feel like the medium is. Is underused for conveying information, for making arguments, for giving advice, for telling stories. It hasn't. The medium hasn't expanded in the way that I thought it would.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, but it makes sense. And you see all the. I think with the rise of YouTube content, you know, it's. You kind of get that with the doodle videos and.

[Dan Pink]

Well, well, I mean, I think that it's interesting. It's a very interesting point that it could be that I was sort of on the right track, but took the wrong train in the sense that I went for manga, the printed form, rather than anime, which is the animated thing. And so in Japan, you know, those two things are. A lot of anime begin as manga, begin as comic, begin as print comics, and then become animated series. So it could be that there is an anime version of this that could be popular. Of course, in the first week the book came out, I got a. An offer to. For the movie rights from. From. Hold on. From a. From a. A person whose name you will know. I don't want to say who it is, but it was a very paltry offer. Like a really, really paltry offer. And I said to my agents, like, oh, no way. This is just so. They're so low balling. This is ridiculous. Almost insulting how little they're offering. We're gonna get so many more offers. Let's turn it down. And then we never got another offer.

[Melina Palmer]

Well. Well, there's still time, right? You never know that it'll be that cult classic that comes back around here for sure. I love it. Well, and. And I guess a great tie in of not needing to be regretting, turning it down. Right. We don't know what can be coming into the future.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, I don't. I don't Regret turning that down because it was the right decision. It was the right decision at the moment. So, you know, and, you know, if I knew. If I. There was. There was nothing there at the moment, given what I knew, it was absolutely the. It was absolutely the wise. The wise decision. Sometimes things don't work out.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's. Before we jump into the power of Regret, I want one more moment of. If you don't mind, because I know there are a lot of people who listen to the show that aspire to write books or create content. And I think like you were saying, you similar to David McRaney who was recently on the show talking about some of his books, how. How Minds Change and.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, it's a new book. It's a great book.

[Melina Palmer]

Oh, totally. I. Fantastic book. I think you have some similarities in the way that you just jump into a concept and find as much as you can. I think that journalistic background is a.

Big piece of that.

But do you have tips for people that are thinking about writing books or not, sure if they should pursue something? And how do you decide what to move forward on or not?

[Dan Pink]

Okay, so, I mean, there are a few different questions embedded in there. I would not start out. I would not start out writing books. I would not recommend that to anybody. I would recommend starting out writing, but I wouldn't try to attempt a book form in the same way that if someone was interested, hey, I think I'm going to start running. I would say, okay, let's go, let's start. Get ready for a marathon. I wouldn't say that. You know, I would say, hey, take a few laps around the block and when that feels good, run a 5k and then run a 10k and things like that. And as cliched as that example might be, I do think that it's right. I think when it comes to writing anything, when it comes to content creation of anything, I think when it comes to most human endeavors, there is a lot to be said for. Again, I'm going to use another sports metaphor, exercise metaphor of getting the reps. Just getting the reps. Okay. And so what do you mean by getting? So getting the reps? Could be start an email newsletter, write two issues a week, do that for six months and see what it's like. That means that you're going to do. That means that you would have. What would that be? That would be like 25 newsletter editions. Okay, you're getting the reps. You know, just. That's what I would advise to anybody who, aspires to write is just start writing and get the reps. That's the only way to get better at it. Listen to, you know, so that's one thing. The other. And listen to the feedback that you get. You don't have to, like, buy everything, but listen to it. Think about what works. Think about what doesn't work. Think about what comes easily. Think about what doesn't come easily. Think about what excites you. Think about what kind of. Ultimately, when you spend more time on it, it bores you. That's an important thing. And then. And so that's. That's what I. That's what I would. That's what. That's what I would advise. Now, when it comes to writing a book, if you've gotten the reps and you say, I'm going to write a book, I think that you have to have. My own view is that you have to have a very, very, very high bar for whether something is worth writing a book about for two reasons. One, many ideas don't have shoulders broad enough to carry a whole book. And they would be better as an article. They would be better as an essay. And so you have to ask yourself, is this really a book? All right, Is this really a book? Is it really worth. Is this idea or this story or this concept or whatever? Is it worth nine hours of somebody's time, 10 hours of somebody's time, or is it really worth a half an hour of somebody's time? That's a. You know, and I think you have to have a very high bar. What's more, from the writer's perspective is do you care about this idea, this story, this concept, whatever? Do you care about it deeply enough to live with it forever? And I mean that, okay, not only do you have to live with it through the arduous process of writing a book, writing, Writing a good book is extremely difficult. I don't care how much talent. It's extremely difficult for me, but it's extremely difficult. But it's also extremely difficult, or at least it's difficult for people who have way more innate talent than I do. Writing a book is inherently difficult. It's really, really, really hard. So if you don't pick a topic that you are deeply interested in, it is going to be a profoundly miserable experience. What's more is that you have to, as our conversation here just revealed, not only do you have to live with the book for the time that you're writing it, I think you have to live with it forever. Case in point, meaning this book, Johnny Bunko that I wrote whatever 13 years ago, I wrote it 14 years ago or something like that. That book came out, I think 2009, I can't remember 2009. So, and here it is 2022 and I just got a question about it and I'm, and here's the thing, I'm glad I got a question about it because I love that book. But if it was something that I detested, it's like, oh my God, this is like coming back to haunt me again. I can't, you know, so, so, so, so anyway, to summarize this very, very lengthy near diatribe. One, ask yourself, is this really a book? Is what you're saying, does what you're saying need nine hours and 300 pages from somebody else to understand that's a very high bar. Second, do you want to live with this for the rest of your life? And what I think that does is that it raises the bar. So, and what I'm hoping to do for the whole ecosystem is raise, is, is encourage people to raise the bar so we don't get as many bad books out there polluting the pond because there's so many bad books out there. Because I feel like people haven't apply those two. And I can use this word with your audience heuristics for making the decision to whether to write a book or not.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And with so much content creation, it's great that it's become easier because there are a lot of amazing books that have come out that might not have been picked up by publishers, but you know, double edged sword problem. There's a lot of pollutant, like you said.

[Dan Pink]

Exactly, exactly. And here's the thing, you know, it's like I'm not gonna, I'm not advocating for, for, you know, let's, I, I'm not advocating for, let's fortify the gates and, and, and arm the gatekeepers and keep out the, the uncredent. I don't, I don't think that's a good idea. What I, what I do want to do is put it at the level of the creator and have the creator really ask themselves hard questions like the ones that I just articulated. Does this deserve 9 hours and 300 pages? And do you want to live with this the rest of your life?

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, great advice because people are going to be just finding you in your book. Like you said, 15, 20, however, hopefully for a long time after you've written it. You know, Bob Cialdini's been on the show and people influence wrote. But that's a great thing. It's amazing with Bob, it's like.

[Dan Pink]

It's almost even more majestic because that's essentially his life, you know, his life's work. And. And it's a tribute to him and his talent and contribution he's made to the world, that this embodiment of his life's work is still popular 25, 30 years later. And so, you know, for me, it's like, if you were to ask me a question about. I wrote a book in 2001 called Free Agent Nation about the rise of people working for themselves. I love to talk about that. It's 21 years later, and let's have a talk about free agent 8. You know, there's other stuff that. There might be, shorter stuff that I wrote back then or even earlier I have no interest in ever talking about again.

[Melina Palmer]

Right, right.

Well, do you want to say any. We have plenty of people who work for themselves that listen to the show. What do you have to say about Free Agent Nation?

[Dan Pink]

Oh, I know. I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't trying to invite. I wasn't trying to invite the conversation.

[Melina Palmer]

You don't have to. I would love to hear about it.

[Dan Pink]

Except that that was a book about the rise of people who were working for themselves, and this is way before the gig economy. And what I was trying to do is kind of make sense of who these people were, why they were doing what they were doing, and what the implications would be. And like any kind of book that is a little bit. That is both a description of the moment, but also a forecast for the future. There's some things I got right and some things I got wrong. But, you know, I actually think on that one, I was. I was. I was, in some ways more. I think I was more right than wrong. And so, you know, I'm still proud of that book. We don't have to talk about it, but, you know, I encourage people to go out and buy one of the many remainder copies out there online.

[Melina Palmer]

Perfect. Well, we'll definitely link to it in the show notes, as we do and appreciate so much the advice to give for people as they are figuring out what's worth their time and what's not. And I'm a big advocate of, like you said, doing. Putting in the reps, finding where you're supposed to be and what you think is your medium. Don't try to do a little bit of everything. Do one thing really, really well.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's you know, again, there's, there's research on this. There's a concept often from computer science applied in other realms, in some psych, some realms of psychology about the difference between exploration and exploitation. So sometimes we explore, sometimes we exploit. I don't love the word exploit because it has a negative connotation. But you think about it, it's exploration and execution. Exploration, execution. And in any part of our lives we want to have some exploration. Hey, let me try this, let me try that. And so you want a little bit of that tasting, you want a little bit of that exploration, but you can't do that all the time because at a certain point you have to execute. And that's really, really where I think that you really want to, you really want to get the rest. At the same time, when you get somebody like, of my advanced age, you, I think there's a danger of spending too much time in execution phase and not returning to exploration, you know, periodically in one's, in one's life.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, great advice. Thank you.

Well, thank you for indulging me on this little side path. Let's talk about the Power of Regret. Fantastic. Fantastic book.

[Dan Pink]

Hey, thanks.

[Melina Palmer]

Such great insights in it. So I will let you start if you don't mind. Like why, what brought you to Power of Regret? What would you say about the book?

[Dan Pink]

Well, I mean, what brought me to it was the fact that I had my own regrets that I, I was at a moment in my life where to my surprise, I had room to look back in a way that I didn't when I wrote Free Agent Nation. There's no way I would have, there's no way that this would have been my first book. My first book came out 21 years ago. You know, I was basically a child. And so if I were to go back and not 21 years ago and then look backward there, there wasn't a lot of space there. Whereas now, you know, it's a double edged sword too. There's a lot of space to look back. And when I look back, like most people, I had regrets. There were things that I wish I had done, there were things that I wish I hadn't done. And what got me interested in this, and it might be another lesson for prospective writers out there, is that, you know, I like to talk about stuff that I'm working on while I'm working on it to some extent, not always, but to some extent because you learn so much. When you say, like people say, what are you working on? I said I'm working on X, Y, and Z. And you see their eyes glazed over, or, I'm working on X, Y, and Z. And so before I was even working on this, so I had this moment. I started thinking about my regrets. I came back and started talking to people saying, hey, you know what? I got these regrets, man. I was like, I regret X, Y, and Z. And instead of people recoiling from that, they leaned in, they wanted to talk about it. And so for a writer, that's a very interesting response. That's a very interesting response. You know what? What? To me, if you're testing ideas, even very informally, you look for those kinds of responses. You don't. I don't want. I don't want someone to say, what are you working on? I'm working on X. Oh, okay, that's cool. That's not a great response. What I want is. What I want is a response saying, oh, that's cool. Have you ever thought about X, Y, or Z? That's cool. Hey, you know what happened to me? That's kind of like that. Or. Or as, you know, as another writer friend of mine advises, really, I don't believe you. He says, that's the. The best response that you get. Really, I don't believe you. And so. So you want a little dynamism in the response. And I got a lot of dynamism there. What I. What I got, not only did I get dynamism, I got disclosure. I got people wanting to. Wanting to reveal. It's a very, very good sign. And that's what took me off to the races and studying this profoundly misunderstood emotion of regret.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, and so is that in the. So the book begins by talking about this sort of no regrets mindset that many people have and feeling like you shouldn't. You shouldn't have any, even though it's a kind of a very natural human emotion and state to have. So in you saying, you know, no regrets is actually bad, and you should have regret, and there's a lot of value in it. That's where people were saying that they didn't agree with. With that. Or was it some other aspect of regret that people didn't necessarily agree with?

[Dan Pink]

What it was was that people felt people had basically been sold a bill of goods. That's what it was more than anything else. People had been sold a bill of goods. They've been sold a bill of goods that says you should never look backward, you should always look forward, you should always be positive and avoid the negative, that regrets are inherently bad for us. And the problem with that is that it is unscientific and counterproductive, among other things. Okay, so what, as you alluded to, what the science tells us, what 50 years, 60 years of science in social psychology, in developmental psychology, cognitive science and neuroscience tells us is that not only is, is. Is. Is regret normal? It is exceedingly common. It's one of the most common emotions that human beings experience. It is ubiquitous in human life. It is everywhere. Everybody has regrets. And so there's a puzzle there, which is that if, because regret isn't pleasant and so. So why is this thing that's so unpleasant so ubiquitous? And the answer, I think the way one resolves that riddle is, is that, well, must be because it's useful, it's doing something for us, it's adaptive in some way. And it turns out that is correct because we have other research showing that if we deal with our regrets properly, we can enlist them to do better on a whole range of tasks. And so the problem is we haven't been taught how to do that. We've been sold a bill of goods. So what happens typically is that people say they ignore their regrets. I never look backward. No regrets. I'm going to go get a tattoo that says, no regrets. I never look backward. Or they get so captured by their regrets that they wallow in them, they ruminate on them, they stew on them. That's a really bad idea too. What you want to do is actually use your regrets as information, as signal, as data for learning, understanding what you value and learning how to do better.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah. And of course, I know I mentioned to you before we started recording, I have episodes on counterfactual thinking and pre factual thinking that I will link to in the show notes, which you definitely talk about in the book, and we can touch on that. One of the things that I think the audience is really going to appreciate from this show is the. I forget the exact name, but the like, great regret survey research that you did and how much that went into that. And then as you dug through this process of categorizing the regret, I like, like you said, taking the journey with you, where we kind of see you thought they were going to categorize in some way and be useful this way, but it was then you realize it was deeper than that. Can you share a little bit about.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, well, I mean, you did a good job of summarizing it. Let me go with a little bit more detail here, which is that I did two pieces of. Of. Of original research. One of them was something that I called the American Regret Project, that was a very large public opinion survey of the US population where we put together a sample of 4,489Americans. We over sampled in the whole variety of demographic groups. It's very, very large. It's a larger sample than one needs to make safe claims about American opinion. But we had such a large sample because I was really using it to see were there demographic differences in regret. So did African Americans have different regrets than white Americans? Did women have different regrets than men, Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? What's more is that I, I wanted to know what people regretted because I felt like the existing research didn't really give us a clear answer to that. So what I did is I had people in this quantitative survey share their, share their regret. Tell me about one of your biggest regrets and then put it into a category. Career, romance, health, whatever. Okay, So I was going after demographic differences and I wanted to understand what people regretted. And here's what I found from my quantitative survey. There weren't that many demographic differences. In fact, there were far fewer than I expected. There were a couple and they were big, but otherwise the demographic differences were modest. Second thing is that people regret a lot of stuff. So I didn't have a How to get a good sense of categorically what do people regret? Okay, cut, fade out. What I also did was a piece of qualitative research. And I know that your listeners aren't going to topple over in their, in their chairs if they hear qualitative and quantitative. So the quantitative. So I did a piece of quantitative research, but I also did a piece of qualitative research. And the qualitative research was simply a giant collection tool called the World Regret Survey where I invited people to around the world to submit their regrets. Not a random sample of people, just an invitation out there for people to submit their. A big regret. And we got an incredible response from basically zero publicity at the outset. So much so that I basically stopped even talking about it because I didn't want to get overwhelmed. We now have A database of 21,000 regrets from people in 109 countries is extraordinary. It's just extraordinary. And what I found there was that when you, that I was asking the wrong question about what people regretted, that I was looking only at the domains of people's lives again, education, regret, health, regret, romance, regret. And what I found when I actually read through these regrets, I didn't read through all 21,000. I read through the first 15,000. When I read through these Regrets. Something else was going on that around the world, people seem to have the same four core regrets over and over and over again. And that ended up being, I thought, quite revealing to me. That's one of the. To me, it's one of the most exciting ideas that I stumbled upon in this research.

[Melina Palmer]

Oh, yeah. No, I loved the way that they were able to categorize and everyone can relate to each one. I think it's a point, like you were saying, of everyone has regrets. And even though someone's sharing, like, one big regret, if people were to really focus on it, we all have countless things that we could say we regret or look back on and think, what if? Or if only on anything. Right. We have thousands, way more. They don't have to hold you back, but you definitely can be again, using them as a tool for good.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, yeah. Although I don't think most people have, like, thousands of regrets, I think people have, like, a handful of some really big regrets. And I think that that's actually a useful tool in figuring things out. So you think about this. I made a bunch of decisions last week. No, like all of us did. You and I and everybody listening made a bunch of decisions last week. I don't remember most of it. I don't even remember most of the decisions I made last week, let alone regret that. But there are some things, decisions or indecisions from earlier in my life, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that stick with me and still bug me. That's significant. That uneasy feeling, being bugged by that is telling you something. And I think that those are extremely revealing. What I found, as I said, is that people seem to have the same four core underlying regrets over and over again around the world.

[Melina Palmer]

Of course, the book gets into these four regrets. Are you open to sharing what they are and a little bit about them?

[Dan Pink]

Yeah. I got nothing to hide. Okay, so. So, so one. So one is what I call foundation regrets. Foundation regrets are. If only I'd done the work. These are regrets that people have about bad decisions, small bad decisions early in life that accumulate and sort of snowball and actually have pretty negative consequences later in life. So the best example of this, our most common example, would be I spent too much and saved too little, and now I'm 41 years old and I'm broke. Another one would be certain kinds of health decisions. I didn't take care of my body. I didn't exercise and eat right. Another one, surprising numbers of people who regret not working hard enough in school. So that's foundation regrets, things that undermine the stability of your life. Second one, boldness regrets. Boldness regrets are if only I'd taken the chance. These are regrets that people have about. It's a good example of how the domains of life don't matter so much. So I got lots of people who regret not asking somebody out on a date years ago. That's a romance regret. I got lots of people, decent number of people at least, who regret who Americans especially, who went to university and regret not studying abroad when they were in college. It's an education. Regret. Then I have lots of regrets from people who regret not starting business, staying in a lackluster and that's a career regret. But all three of those regrets are the same regret. You're at a juncture in life, you can play it safer, take the chance and you don't take the chance. And then you regret it. And over and again you see that. So that's a boldness regret. If only I'd taken the chance. Moral regrets are if only I'd done the right thing. These are regrets where again, you're at a disjuncture, you can do the right thing, you can do the wrong thing based on your own moral code. And when we betray our own moral code, not all of us, but most of us regret it. And then finally our connection regrets, which are regrets about relationships and mostly not romantic relationship, just the full spectrum of relationships in our lives that come apart. We want to do something, we want to reach out, we don't. It drifts apart even more and then sometimes it's too late. So connection regrets are if only I've reached out and with remarkable regularity around the world. These are the things that people regret.

[Melina Palmer]

I love that in the book you weave in such diverse stories that are, I mean, diverse and yet very familiar, you know, so the very similar, you know, tie ins and we can relate to. To them and you know, see yourself in, in each of them. So I think that that is really, really valuable. So I'm looking through. I took so many notes while I was reading the book. One of my favorite quotes that you had in the, that I read from the book that I took a note on is that saying finding a silver lining doesn't negate the existence of a cloud. And I think that's such an important thing in noting about regrets. Can you share a little bit about, you know, what that means and what people can really learn from that and what regret can do for you?

[Dan Pink]

So how do we process our regrets and how do we use them as force going forward. And a starting point for that is this basic distinction between regrets of action and regrets of inaction. So regrets of action. You have some choices. You can undo your regret. So let's say you get a tattoo. Oh, I regret getting the tattoo. You can have the tattoo removed. It's unpleasant, but you could, you know, you can. You can undo that. You can undo that action. Other times, what people can do, and it's psychologically healthy, is they can find the silver lining in that. In that regret. So the most common one that I have in the database are, and I think it's almost all women who say, oh, my God, I so regret marrying Fred. But at least I have these. These three great kids. So you're sort of taking some of the sting out of it. But you're also. You can use that regret about your partner choices and say, okay, what did I learn from that? What mistake did I make? And then when you're choosing partner next time around, make a better decision. So that's what I mean. So you can use the silver lining, say, at least I got these three great kids. But that doesn't mean that you still haven't made a bad decision and you can't learn from that decision.

[Melina Palmer]

Right, Right. Yeah.

And as you think about, you know, so the book, of course, being the Power of Regret, how looking Backward Moves Us Forward. And so if you were to, I don't know if it's elevator pitch or like, summing up the, you know, the value of understanding regret, what it can do for people. How do you classify. Why we should look at regrets differently?

[Dan Pink]

Well, I mean, here's the thing. Regret is one of the most common emotions that we have. Everybody has regrets. And when you face a regret, you have a choice. You can ignore it, that leads to delusion. You can wallow in it, that leads to despair, or you can confront it, you can draw lessons from it. And we have a massive amount of evidence that when we confront. Confront our regrets, when we think about our regrets, we can use them to make better decisions, solve problems faster and better, avoid cognitive biases, become better negotiators, become greater, better strategists and. And find more meaning in life. So what I'm trying to do in the book is normalize regret and give people the tools to rethink it and remake it into a force for good.

[Melina Palmer]

You say a few times in the book that feeling is for thinking and thinking is for doing. Is there anything to expand on what that means?

[Dan Pink]

Well, I mean, so. So your Listeners are probably familiar with William James, the parent of modern psychology. And you know, he, in sort of wrestling with some ideas over 100 years ago, he's like, why don't human beings think? Like, what's the point of like, what is thinking for? And he said, thinking is for doing. We think in order to act. We act in order to survive. We think in order to act. And the open question is, what are feelings for them? Okay, if thinking is for doing, what are feelings for? And it's an interesting question because there's some debate. There's, there, there's some people who say, well, feeling. Just ignore feelings. Feelings are not. Feelings are irrelevant stimuli. They're, they're, they're meaningless. They're, they're, they're, they're false signals. Other people unfortunately believe that feelings are the only truth, that what you feel is the ultimate truth. I don't think that's right either. So, so feeling isn't for feeling and feeling isn't for ignoring. To me, feeling. I mean, again, I don't want to make this sound harsh or unsympathetic to people's emotional states, but for me, feelings are for thinking. Feelings are signals. They're data, they're information. And so when you have a feeling, especially really a negative feeling, that's the thing, a negative feeling, even though it's unpleasant, we might want to say, oh, bat it away. I don't like feeling negative. Or may say, oh my God, negative feeling, my life is over. Or you can say, oh, wow. Huh. A negative feeling, that's like a knock at the door. Clunk, clunk, clunk. It's trying to tell me something. It's teaching me something. Let me think about it. Let me not wallow in it. Let me not ignore it. Let me think about it. And when we do that, we can take our negative emotions and use them as a force for progress. And what irritates me is that we haven't taught people how to do that well. So we have too many people basically deluding themselves into thinking they don't have negative emotions or being so debilitated by negative emotions that they don't function well.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, I forget off the top of my head the, you know, there are videos of, and different research in where people believe we feel like we're supposed to be happy all the time. And I have a, I have an episode on the dose brain chemicals. It's 123. I'll link to it in the show notes. But this, we are not meant to be happy. All the time. And so if you're not happy, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It's normal, right?

[Dan Pink]

Of course not. I mean, here's the thing. I mean that. But that's a really important point. And I'm not saying positive emotions aren't worth. You should have a lot of. You should have positive emotions. You want to have positive emotions. You want to have a lot of positive emotions. You want to have way more positive emotions than negative emotions. But a life well lived is not a life of only positive emotions, because negative emotions serve a role. And, you know, we don't want to have too many of them, and we don't want to freak out about them either. They are. Negative emotions are part of life. And the big problem here, I think, is some kind of. Is basically discomfort, the way that we run away from discomfort. When I think in many cases we should be running toward discomfort. As paradoxical as that sounds, as counterintuitive as that sounds, I think we actually in some ways have to reframe discomfort. So instead of saying, oh, my God, I'm feeling uncomfortable now I'm feeling negative. This is a problem. You have to say, oh, my God, I'm feeling negative right now. Wait a second. When we're feeling uncomfortable, when we. If we treat it right, that's how we grow. You know, when I say that regret clarifies what we value and instructs us on how to do better. People are like, psychological. I want clarification. I want instruction. I just don't want the discomfort and negative feeling. And I'm like, sorry, that's not the offer on the table. The discomfort is the source of the clarification. The discomfort is the source of the instruction.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah.

And a lot of the motivation, I would think, to change and have the same. Right. If you don't experience the pain, then there's no real motivation to change your.

Behavior into the future.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, yeah. And again, when we say pain and discomfort, I'm not talking about debilitating, crushing pain and discomfort. I'm talking. That's why. That's why I like using discomfort. Because I don't like experiencing discomfort in any realm of my life, but when I am. When I am, I mean, in anything. So, you know, let's say that I am. So my wife decided to take up tennis, having never played tennis before, and I wanted to play with her. I played when I was growing up, but I haven't played, like, literally in like, 30 years. Okay. So. So I just picked up a tennis racket and you know what? It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable trying to relearn how to play tennis. But you know what that discomfort means? Like you have to. Oh, yeah, discomfort. That's a sign of growth. That's a sign. Okay, what am I doing wrong? So to me, it's like if I was feeling totally comfortable, I wouldn't be learning anything. So you want a little bit of discomfort. You want the right amount of discomfort because that's how we learn and grow.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely.

I talk about that on the show all the time. So I think it's going to be well received by the audience as well as the value in asking those powerful questions. When you do have that moment of feeling a little bit off, don't try to push it away, but instead take it as an opportunity to say, why do I feel this way? What might this do for me? How could I learn more? You know, all of that. Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

Reframe it. Reframe it as an opportunity. And that is not Pollyanna. That is not live, that is not happy talk. That is a psychologically healthy and strategic way to process these kinds of things.

[Melina Palmer]

Love it. Perfect. And of course, we'll be linking to the book the Power of Regret in the show notes as well as many of your other books. You know, maybe not all, but definitely a lot in the. In the show notes. What is the best way for people to. To learn more about you if they want to follow you? For everyone who's interested, you know, what's their best avenue for that?

[Dan Pink]

I think the best avenue is just is to start out on my website, which is dan pink.com there you can find. We have some free re a lot of free resources but we have a bi weekly newsletter and then all of my social stuff is there. Most of my social media handles are at Danielping.

[Melina Palmer]

Perfect. Well, we will definitely. We always link to Twitter. It's a nice way for our listeners to put just a quick little tweet and say something interesting. Give a little shout out. I don't know any author like you say you spend so much time creating this sort of stuff. There's no one that I know that would say somebody wants to tell me what they enjoyed about my insight.

Terrible. Right.

So give a little bit of a tweet love over to Annual Pink. Make sure to tag the brainy biz and see, say, you know, what you enjoyed about the book, about learning about regrets, the episode, anything great to have. Well, thank you again, Daniel Pink, for joining me on the show. It was just really great to chat about regret and so many other things with you today.

[Dan Pink]

Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

[Melina Palmer]

So what got your brain buzzing as you learned about the Power of Regret with Dan Pink today? For me, this book has a special place in my heart because I was reading it on my first trip to Amsterdam, I speaking at a conference there and was traveling on my own. So I spent a lot of time sitting and reading at restaurants and different little tours I got to go do and this book was great company for me while I was there. I can vividly remember where I was sitting when I was reading and learning certain parts of this book. And of course some stand out more prominently for me than others. Like when I was reading about Connection Regrets, I was waiting to go in and do my tour at the Anne Frank Museum and it just really hit me in this amazing and different way, this real depth as I'm sure that you can appreciate and understand. And so you know these two things are very closely related. For me. It's a pretty cool random association that most people wouldn't have, but it was really interesting to be reflecting on my life and potential regrets while on that trip. It was my first really big post Covid trip, so it really did stick with me. Beyond that, I've always been amazed by how many people have shared their regret stories and that Dan and his team took all that time analyzing what they found. I also love that they didn't let their preconceived notions about what they thought the categories would be or what the stories would be or the lessons impact the results that going through the data helped to find these four categories of the different types of regrets Foundational boldness, moral and connection, and that shaped the insights for the book. I think that's so important as you look back on your past year. If you have a looming regret or potential regret, which category would it fall into? Is there something you can do about it now before the new year starts to alleviate it? If nothing jumps out at you, I would recommend looking at connection. It feels like the easiest and most warm and fuzzy potential regret out there. Who haven't you talked to in a while that you've been thinking about reaching out to but haven't? Give them a call, you know, send them a text or DM or you know, whatever your style is, just do it. It'll only take a few seconds and as Dan shares in the book, almost everyone is happy to hear from you. Spread a little joy as we close the chapter on this year and move forward into the next and as I said if you're listening to this later, you know, do it now before the new day starts, before a new week or month, quarter, whatever. And don't forget, you can live this way, working toward your best, most lived life every day. And my guest on the next episode is going to help you do just that as we talk about her new book, you Only Die Once.

So good.

Such a great thought provoking conversation. You don't want to miss that one. So if you aren't already subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now is a great time to do so. As we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes with links to my top related past episodes and books including the Power of Regret and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 458 and just like that, episode 458 on the power of Regret is done. Join me Friday for a brand new episode with Jody Wellman, author of youf Only Die Once. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.

[Dan Pink]

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.