← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
462. The Power of Saying No with Vanessa Patrick
00:41:59
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer is joined by Dr. Vanessa Patrick, a renowned professor of marketing and author of the USA Today bestseller, The Power of Saying No. Together, they delve into the critical art of saying no...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Hey there Melina. Here, I'm excited to share. I'm teaching two virtual courses in Applied Behavioral Economics which are enrolling now. Advanced concepts of Behavioral Economics and Internal Communication and Change Management. So if you're interested, don't delay, learn more and enroll at HBL. Like Human Behavior Lab.tamu like Texas A&M University edu. Again, that's HBL.tamu edu and click on Certificate program when you're ready. Let's start the show welcome to episode 462 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy Today's episode is all about the Power of saying no with Dr. Vanessa Patrick. Ready? Let's get started. You are listening to the Brainy Business.
- [00:59]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making.
- [01:07]
Melina Palmer
It more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer. Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. When it comes to saying no to people, how does that make you feel? Would you say that you're great at it, saying no to things left and right? Or does the thought of it give you a knot in the pit of your stomach? Do you get filled with anxiety and dread or or not even think of it anymore and just say yes immediately only to regret it later if you are feeling overwhelmed and stretched too thin and constantly kicking yourself and vowing to do better next time, this episode is for you. In today's refreshed episode, I'm joined by Dr. Vanessa Patrick. Vanessa is a Professor of Marketing and the Associate Dean for Research at the Bauer College of Business at the University of Houston. She has a PhD in business from the University of Southern California and an MBA in Marketing and a BS Degree in Microbiology and Biochemistry from Bombay University in India. Vanessa has published dozens of research articles in top tier academic journals in psychology, marketing and management, and popular accounts of her work have appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, NPR, Los Angeles Times, BusinessWeek, Fast Company, Forbes, Huffington Post and the Washington Post. In her research, she investigates strategies to achieve personal MA mastery and inspire everyday excellence in oneself and others, and is a pioneer in the study of everyday consumer aesthetics. Vanessa is here today discussing her USA Today bestseller, the Power of Saying no. So don't forget links to my top related past episodes and books are waiting for you in the show notes for this episode, which are found within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 462. All right, let's talk about the power of saying no. Dr. Vanessa Patrick, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [03:17]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be here.
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Melina Palmer
Oh, yes, I am very, very excited to have you as well and to meet you today, having been introduced to you two days ago and your book came out today, and so exciting. And for everyone who doesn't yet know you, I will have talked a little bit about you in the intro, of course, but can you share a little bit about your background and the work that you do?
- [03:40]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Right, so I'm a professor of marketing at the Bauer College of Business at the University of Houston. I also have an administrative position. I am the associate dean for research, the executive director of our doctoral programs, and I am also the lead faculty for our women in leadership program. And I am the author of the new book the power of saying no, the new science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life.
- [04:06]
Melina Palmer
Ah, well. And how many of us struggle with saying no? I'm sure, you know, at least some sort of percentages in the research. Is it 100%? It's pretty close, right?
- [04:17]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
A lot of people, most people struggle with saying no. And even the people who say I have no problem saying no, what they need to learn is how to say no more effectively. Because if you have no problem with saying no, chances are you are, you know, burning a lot of bridges.
- [04:34]
Melina Palmer
Right? Yeah, there's. There's saying no and saying no in a way that makes it so people don't hate you.
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Right, Exactly. That's what. That's where my book comes in for sure.
- [04:46]
Melina Palmer
And I. What I really loved in the book is, you know, there's this balance of the. The fear we have of what people will say where we feel like we have to say yes. I know I had mentioned to you a little bit in the intro, but Zoe Ch is just one of my very favorite people. She's been on the show talking about her book influences your superpower. And we talked a lot about, you know, how she has her students do their 24 hours of no and the importance of, like, asking because people are inclined to say yes and then getting a little bit more comfortable with saying no to things and realizing it's not as bad as it may seem. And I love how much more, you know, you really dig in, of course, where it's a whole book just on saying no instead of, you know, one piece in a book. But, you know, we're really worried about what might happen, and we kind of build it up to the exact. And do the exact opposite of what can actually be effective. Right?
- [05:48]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yes. We have these dual drivers that make us say yes when we want to say no. 1 is a concern for our relationships with the asker. We want to be liked, we want to be part of a social group, we want to have friends. And we think that by saying yes, we are more likely to secure that relationship with the asker. The other thing that we care about is being seen as competent. Our reputation is super important. And so the other reason we say yes when we want to say no is because we want people to think good things about us when we leave the room. We want them to say that we are completely capable people who can take on more and more and more and that person who can take on more and more and more and do everything well, I've never met that person. That person does not exist.
- [06:42]
Melina Palmer
Right. Well, and you. I love the example, you know, from the book of saying like the. You don't want to be the kind of pushover person where it's like, oh, ask Melina, she'll do anything. Like people don't respect that in the same way either. Right. Like, yeah.
- [06:58]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
And so there are people who unfortunately, because they become these people who say yes to everything, they become the go to person for everything that everyone wants. But what happens then is that you are unable to develop your own set of unique skills and be known for your unique competence. You are just known as the Jack of all trades, as opposed to, you know, the master of a certain set of things that you say very strategically.
- [07:26]
Melina Palmer
Say yes to for sure. But it's hard. Right? Well, I. I'm curious to. To see so and for everyone listening, I think they'll be intrigued to know, you know, you share a story at the beginning of the book of at least one instance that got you interested in saying yes when you wish you could say no. Is that the only thing that really drove you to this idea of studying the power of no and why you should say no and why we say yes and. Or is there more to it?
- [07:57]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
There's a lot to it. I mean, the motivating story was something that happened many, many years ago. And since then, of course, you realize that this is a really important area. My first work in this space was actually the ability to say no to yourself in terms of self discipline. So the research started in the domain of studying how do you say no to temptation? How do you resist temptation and use self talk in a way that helps you steer yourself away from the temptation and towards your goals. And so that work on self talk was the first research that I published on saying no. And it's kind of a different reframe because temptation is very often looked at as the balance between desire and willpower. And one of the things that boosts our willpower is how we think about things, how we talk to ourselves, and how we diminish the desire of temptation by that self talk. And that's kind of the way I conceptualize this idea of empowered refusal, saying no to yourself. And then in an extension of that paper, looked at it in an interpersonal context. And to be honest, Melina, I don't think that when I studied this at the beginning, I realized how important it was. It was only after I published these papers. And then the phone kept ringing with everybody wanting to know. The press essentially saying there were all these articles from the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the LA Times, radio shows, all sorts of things largely about this problem. And that's the first time I realized, oh, goodness, this issue is really something that people struggle with and want to be. Want to know more about. And fast forward, about eight years later, you know, we have a book. So that's awesome.
- [10:02]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. Well, and of course, congratulations again on the book and I in reading your book. So I have done an article for INC that I wrote about self talk in like first person versus third person for motivating ourselves based on some research that I didn't like personally know the authors, but just had grabbed the research. So potentially that's your paper that you're talking about.
- [10:35]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
I'm not sure. I haven't read your ink article, but it could.
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Melina Palmer
I know it might be right. It could have been some of your work and definitely some of the don't versus can't. I've written stuff about that as well, which I believe is your research. Right?
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
That. That is definitely mine. Yeah.
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, I have. I have cited and talked about it often and didn't know it was you. So I love when that works out. So I do have written and shared about it. And for everyone who hasn't read those articles yet or heard about this, can you share a little bit about some of that don't versus Can't?
- [11:09]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yeah. Yeah. So it was. It's a. It's basically a very simple kind of reframing of how you say no. So instead of saying I can't, using the words I can't, which signals deprivation, signals to the asker that under other circumstances you would. That you would like to but you are not able to. Those are all the connotations of can't. But when you say I don't, you come across as much more empowered, much more in the driver's seat of your own life, way more in control, convincing, determined. And so when you want to frame your refusal, shifting from I can't do, I don't makes a world of difference. So if I tell you, for example, I can't eat chocolate cake or I can't go out tonight, you're going to be like, why? That's the first thing. And you enter and you almost invite a negotiation. Whereas with, when you want to say no, you don't want to enter into a negotiation with the asker. You want to say a firm and decisive no so that you don't get pushback. And you can move on from that topic. Essentially, that's the most effective no.
- [12:26]
Melina Palmer
And I know that some of you talk about it in the book. And one of the ways I've talked about it before too is the. And I think that it's from the original research, right? The I can't skip workouts and I don't skip workouts. Right? Yes. And it feels, you know, it's one word, it's, you know, two letters that shouldn't be that big of a difference. And yet, you know, when you say, oh, I can't, I can't do this, I guess, you know, it just primes and sets you up to want to break the rules a little bit. We don't like being put in that box where as saying, well, I don't do that thing, the end, you made.
- [13:06]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
A decision, you have a personal policy about it and you have, you're much more in control. And that language signals to yourself as well as to others that this is, this is a firm stance that you are taking on the matter.
- [13:22]
Melina Palmer
So when people do ask us to do things, so we of course get asks from all sorts of areas. We get asks from people we're very close to, friends, family members, bosses. We have asks from peripheral type people and asks from people we're never, ever going to see again. Does it matter? How does it come into play? I of course, know some of the answer. But you know, how, how does this tie in with the way we say no?
- [13:55]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yeah, this is what I call the acquaintance trap. So essentially what I show and argue is that it's very easy for us to say no to a complete stranger who we will never see again. You can say no, it's completely transactional. Never going to see them Again, no problem. It's also easy to say no to people who you're close to because you have a secure relationship with them and your reputation is not likely to be damaged. So it's okay to say no to, like your mom or your sister because they'll get over it and it's fine. They'll be fine. The vast majority of people, however, fall into the bucket of acquaintances. We know them somewhat, people we work with, neighbors, neighborhood, friends, community. And those are people that we want to be seen in a good light. We want to have positive relationships with them. We want them to think we are nice. And so these are the people we struggle with, with saying no the most.
- [14:57]
Melina Palmer
And it feels like where I don't want to say the bulk of the asks come from, but you get a lot of asks from people, maybe expect a lot from you. And. But is the advice different? I guess as we look at saying no for people, where do we start? I know that you've got your, you know, the empowered refusal that comes up. But as you talk to people about saying no and everybody that's listening like, yes, what do I do? How do I say no? What do you tell them?
- [15:26]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yeah. So I identify these three competencies that we need to develop in order to be able to say an effective no. The art of empowered refusal. ART is the acronym. A stands for awareness, R stands for rules, not decisions, and T stands for totality of self. And so what I argue is and propose in the book is that we have to really invest to be able to say an empowered refusal. I don't do something. It needs to stem from your identity and a place of self awareness. So you do have to invest in yourself, in understanding. What do I uniquely want to bring to the table? What is it that I'm good at? What is it that I don't, that I want to steer clear of? What are the things I want to prioritize? What do I believe in? So these are questions that we need to spend some time reflecting on so that we can build some personal policies on them. So personal policies are these simple rules that we set up for ourselves that guide our actions and decisions. And with this deepened self awareness, we can then set ourselves up with these rules so that when we are in a situation, we have a rule in place. So for example, instead of, let's say you want to give up sugar, right? You want to eat less sugar. Instead of making a decision each and every time you look at a menu that you don't want to eat dessert or you are Going to skip the salad dressing. You can set up personal policies that give voice to that decision of wanting to eat less sugar. You can just be somebody who says I don't eat salad dressing, I don't eat desserts during the week, things like that. And so in behavioral science we talk about that. One form in which we can talk about that is in terms of mental budgets. Right. So mental budgets are these quotas that we give ourselves. It helps us stick with those, with what we desire to achieve. So research has shown that mental budgets are a form of a self regulatory device. We can set our quota and say I'm going to walk, you know, 8,000 steps a day. And so you just do that because you have a quota and you're going to make sure you achieve that quota. So personal policy is very similar in that regard and it has to come from that deepened self awareness that you can identify what that is and then set you up for that sort of success.
- [18:00]
Melina Palmer
Right. And is that where it's easier to stick to if you understand the why behind it?
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Absolutely. It's so much easier to be because what it says is I'm the kind of person who does this. Right. I'm the kind of person who doesn't take calls between 6 and 8 in the evening. I'm the kind of person who doesn't touch their phone when they are in the car. I'm the kind of person who takes the elevator or does, takes the stairs instead of the elevator. So it's like the kind of person you are and you use that sort of language that allows you to say know more effectively and you can do this. And you know, we've talked a lot about personal examples, but you can do this when you're working on a project team and working with other people as well. And I a lot of examples that come up in the research that come about how you can be more efficient at work if you set yourself up with these rules.
- [18:56]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. So you know, speaking of work, of course the bringing the business here into the brainy business. So what about the asks from, you know, we want to say no to. And it's different when it's your boss or your boss's boss or your boss's boss's boss, you know, or you know, even a coworker, you know, so what advice do you have for people? And they don't have to be in a fully like toxic work environment, but you still potentially get some masks that aren't great. And if you've always been that people pleaser, I Know, this comes up too, you know, what do you do?
- [19:36]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Right? And so one of the things I do in the book is I present a framework to help people decipher the ask because it's really important to figure out what ask to say yes to and what asks to say no to. You know, there are some asks in organizations that you just got to do because they are urgent and important and they just got to be done. You know, like if you're on a spaceship and you need to do something or else the spaceship is going to crash to the ground, that's not the time for empowered refusal. That's the time for action and doing what needs to be done. Right? But so, so there are those kind of high risk, very important, urgent situations where you are better off cooperating in the moment. I'm not talking about those kind of asks in my book. I'm talking about asks which are regular asks that are not part of your job that you are taking on because you simply don't know how to get out of them. Some research has talked about these ask as non promotable tasks. They are not part of your job and they do not contribute to your advancement in the organization. So in organizations there are lots of things that just need to be done. They are not assigned to anybody in terms of a job responsibility, but they got to be done, so someone's got to do them. And it turns out unfortunately that the same people end up doing those kind of non promotable tasks. So Linda Babcock and her colleagues do this research on non promotable tasks. And these are tasks like bringing the coffee for a meeting, taking the notes of a meeting, organizing retirement parties and stuff like that, which, which are good to do, but it shouldn't be the only thing you spend all your time doing because that's not why you were employed by the firm. Right. And so you have to be thinking about what are the trade offs associated with me taking on all these extra tasks and how is that impacting the work that I need to get done. And it turns out that women are more 44% more likely to be asked to do non promotable tasks and they are 76% more likely to say yes when asked compared to 51% of men. And so if you look around and think about, you know, a lot of community events, things that, charity events, a lot of them are running by women because women are taking on these responsibilities to do things that are unpaid and not necessarily associated with advancement. And so what I advocate for is that by all means you should participate in non promotable tasks. But make sure that you are not the only one. You want to be a contributor, but you don't want to be the only, only one doing that. There has to be a system in place where you take turns doing it. Everybody gets a chance to do those things and then it's fair because those things have to be done right.
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Melina Palmer
You don't want to be the default for all the slush tasks.
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
And unfortunately a lot of people find themselves in those situations and they feel extremely resentful and frustrated that that is how they are spending their time and that's not a good thing. So it's those kinds of asks that we have to be careful of.
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Melina Palmer
It's interesting because I think some people really do like. So something along the lines of planning the party. Right. They may actually like and get some enjoyment out of that. And while it's not part of their job, they think it's fun. And other people, you know, it's part of their personal brand in a way that it's providing some value for them and they do maybe get to be seen by some higher ups where they might not have otherwise and there could be some value in that. But other people hate that. And it's kind of the like, oh, of course I have to plan the party because I'm a woman sort of a thing, right. Where you, if that's where how you feel about it or how it's come across, you know, find a way to say no to the thing that you hate doing. Right?
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yeah.
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Melina Palmer
And so for the people that are planning the party, find a way to say no to maybe taking the notes, right? So you don't end up doing everything.
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
You're so right. Because that's one of the things I talk about in the book. You know, everybody needs to find the tasks. We want to create workplaces and environments that where everyone is doing the stuff that they are best at and enjoy the most. You're going to get the most productive and happy environment, work environment. If people are tapped in to do things that leverage their strengths and if you are doing stuff that you really hate and you are doing them because you don't know how to say no to them, that's what, that's where you start needing to develop this no muscle and practice empowered refusal.
- [24:53]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, I know that there's another nuance that can come up. You know, we'll talk about it in the work context and you know, really any way that it wants to present itself as you answer. But you know, even people that say oh, I'm really good at saying no. I don't have to worry about it. But that might be. You're maybe forgetting there. You're focusing on areas where, you know, you're confident saying no. And I bet there's somewhere that you struggle, right? You're. Most people are not good at saying no in all aspects of their life, under all circumstances, no matter what. Right. So there's the solo ask and the, the social where you get a lot of that herding instincts coming up and the, you know, social proof where you know, someone says, oh well, Molina will do that.
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Right, right.
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Melina Palmer
And you know, everybody turns and looks at you. Do you answer differently than when it's just a one on one ask?
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
So obviously it's harder, it's harder to say no when everyone is looking at you and expecting you to answer with a positive yes. In fact, I call that the stadium proposal. Right. So in the book I talk about the fact that, you know, we have this jumbotron in our mind. It's like we are being proposed to at a Stadium with 10,000 people watching and we have no choice but to say yes. And sometimes in these environments where a lot of people are just expecting you to say yes, it's really much harder. And so I come up with strategies to kind of diffuse that stadium proposal moment, diffuse the spotlight that we are experiencing. It's easier to say no when you are in a one on one and it's easier in a one on one if it's not face to face. So if you can bring technology as a mediator between you and the asker, it's just easier to say no when you've got technology mediating that conversation. We are 34 times more likely to say yes to a face to face request.
- [26:56]
Melina Palmer
So.
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Dr. Vanessa Patrick
It'S a good idea if you're someone who doesn't know how to say no. It's a good idea to kind of make that conversation a digital one to.
- [27:09]
Melina Palmer
Never be in a room with anyone ever.
- [27:15]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Learn how to navigate it. Right. With the, with the empowered refusal.
- [27:21]
Melina Palmer
You're right. Yeah, for sure. And again, you know, if you're making the. If you're someone that has a hard time asking other people to do things and you always do things, we can learn, you know the flip of this as well, right? That if you ask in person, you know, you're more likely.
- [27:36]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
We have to remember that an ask is not a requirement, a request is not a requirement. It is, it is a request. And you have to also remember that you are not rejecting the asker, you are rejecting the ask. We are not rejecting the person, we are rejecting what they are asking us to do. And once we kind of reframe that in our own mind, it becomes easier. I don't want to do this. That's fine. It's not that I. You're rejecting the person who's asking you. And, and we very often, for some reason, I think it's because we are socialized to be much more compliant. When people ask you something or invite you to go somewhere or ask you for a favor, they are generally expecting a yes. And so saying no goes against that expectation, that social contract. And so we need to kind of reframe that social contract so that we think about the fact that this, this is not a rejection of the other person. This is really about that task or that particular ask. And changes quite a bit when you think about it that way.
- [28:51]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. And you touched a little bit on something here that I think might. People might have a question about, you know, is it better to have a reason or to not have a reason? And I think in this case we hear reason as. That's a fancy way to say excuse. Right, Right.
- [29:09]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
So having a reason that stems from your identity or having or something that matters to you is, is a valid and strong reason and strong way to communicate your. No. What most, most of the time what happens, Molina, is that we reach for the first excuse that we can find and we grab onto that and give that to the asker. And it turns out that excuses, they don't have the kind of power. They are weak arguments essentially for saying no compared to a personal policy or an identity based no, which is much more strong argument and hence more persuasive. I did a study in which I told people that they were going to ask someone for money, so they needed $5,000 to pay to put down a down payment on some condo. And they went and asked a friend and the friend either gave them an excuse and said something like, oh, I really can't right now because I have my own expenses and I have to pay this and I have to do that. And. Or they, they basically gave them a personal policy, which is, no, I don't loan money to friends and family. That's my policy. That's my rule. So either excuse or rule, it turns out that in the short run you have to go away. You accept that excuse, you accept that personal policy. What happens, however, is, so we ask them, if you have this need for money again five years from now, would you go back to this friend, as you might imagine, because the rule was permanent, you're not going to go back because that person has said, I don't lend money to friends and family. This is a rule today. It's a rule five years from now, 20 years from now. Whereas an excuse like I can't because I have to pay this and I have to do that, is temporary, it's situational. And so obviously, five years from now, that excuse doesn't exist. The door is still left open. You're quite likely to go back and ask that person. And I think that that's the power of personal policies versus excuses.
- [31:26]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, definitely. And again, like you said, you know, taking the time to choose what your personal policies are makes it so they're easier to hold to because it's not like everything under every. It's not like you're going to say no to every thing that anyone ever asks you for the rest of your life. Right. But if you have the lines that are drawn and say, like, this is just an easy no. It's kind of in the, you know, Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg wearing the same thing every day of like, not having to think about it makes it easier to do everything else.
- [32:01]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yes. So I have a framework in the book which I call, which is to help people decipher the ask. And it. And it talks about two main criteria. The first criterion is how costly is this to you? If I say yes, how costly is it to you? And then how. The other criteria is how much will it benefit the asker? What impact can I have in the world if I did this right? And so the, the first type of asks, I'll give you a couple of examples. The first kind of ask is, you know, this easy ask, which is, it's. I call it the pass the salt ask. So imagine there's a salt shaker sitting in front of you and someone says, hey, Vanessa, can you pass the salt? And you just pick it up and you give the salt. That's easy. It's no cost for you and potentially high benefit for the person because they really wanted the salt and you passed it along. So that was great. So pass the salt asks are good to say yes to because they are low cost to you, but you can benefit the other person immensely. As a professor, I look at recommendation letters, for example, writing recommendation letters, it's a pass the salt sort of ask. Because I have a system in place on how to write a recommendation letter, how long it takes, if this is a student that needs it and can get into college or master's program based on that recommendation letter. It's a game changer for them. And so those are past the salt asks, the kind of asks that are the ones to be aware of what I call bake your famous lasagna ask asks. They are the careless asks. They are the asks which are they have no real impact on the world, but they are hugely costly for you. So the example I give in the book is a friend is having a potluck and says, hey, you're so great at baking the lasagna. I loved it the last time I ate it. Why don't you bring that to the potluck? And you're stuck because you who don't know how to navigate that. And that is how you need to spot bake your famous lasagna ask. Because essentially it is a potluck, which means everyone is going to buy store bought cookies and store bought salads and you would have slaved over the lasagna for a few hours at least. And so those are the kind of ass that you need to be the most careful of. They do not have a unique impact. They're not going to make a difference in the world. No dentist in the universe, because you did them and they are hugely costly for you. So you need to spot those asks and obviously say no to bake your famous lasagna asks. And then of course, the ask that I like to say yes to are what I call hero's journey asks, which are both. They might be costly for you, they might be things that you have to invest in, but also they make a difference to the world. So they are worth doing. And so we want to say no to the bake your famous lasagna ask because that gives us the time to do the hero's journey asks. So I think one of the things I talk about a lot in the book is the issue of trade offs and opportunity costs. Right? So when you are faced with an ask, you have to think about, if I say yes to this one thing, what am I saying no to? And that's the opportunity cost that you have to evaluate. And when we think about opportunity cost, we definitely realize the importance of saying no for sure.
- [35:43]
Melina Palmer
And I know you talk about it in the book and it's probably a concept people, most people have heard before. But you know, everything you say yes to means you're saying no to everything else you know that you could have done in that time. Right?
- [35:56]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Exactly, exactly. And you know, we do have a phenomenon in the literature which is called opportunity Cost neglect, which is people in general don't often think about opportunity cost of the things that they are saying yes to. And so you have to kind of intentionally do that. You have to build opportunity cost calculations into your decision making because it's not something that happens naturally.
- [36:23]
Melina Palmer
One of the things that I really loved, one of the many things I really loved in the book, and I have so many quotes kind of written down, and I've been like, holding back and trying to not jump into too many of them for you. But, you know, this idea of, you know, being empowered to make a decision, and it can feel like it's something that's really selfish. We can feel like we're being selfish when we say no and that those two things, you know, kind of have to go together in this way. But I think it's so important how you shiv that's not even just not necessarily the case, but really that the opposite can actually be true.
- [37:00]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Yeah, absolutely. I think that you have to think about the fact that it's not selfish to say no to things that don't matter to you, that don't leverage your unique strengths, that don't create the impact in the world that you want to have. In fact, I think it's pretty selfish of people to ask you to do that. So if you turn it around and see a pushy asker who's demanding that you do something that you don't want to do, that person is the one being selfish, not the person who's saying no to the ask. And we've talked about the fact that society favors the asker. So it's like it feels in many cases that the asker, because they asked, should get the yes answer. And why should that be? We can think about it and say, well, you're being selfish asking me to do something that is not up my alley. It is my right to say no to those asks.
- [37:59]
Melina Palmer
Thank you so much for that advice. I think it is important for people to know that it's not being selfish to say no. It's actually, it can be valuable to others when you do take that time to say no. And that your book has so many amazing tips for people that goes deeper into the language, helping them to understand how to do these things. Like, you know, so where you're listening going, yeah, but what do I do with my boss when they ask? Or how do I overcome this? Of course, there are lots of tips for you in the book which will be linked in the show notes. And for more on that, you know, Vanessa what's the best way for everyone who's now really excited to learn more from you to connect? You know, where should they go? What should they do?
- [38:41]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
So my website is vanessapatrick.net I am on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and can easily be found on those on those channels. Social media channels.
- [38:57]
Melina Palmer
Perfect. Well, we will again share those links in the show notes. And thank you so much again for saying yes to joining me on the show today.
- [39:05]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Of course. Thank you so much Melina.
- [39:09]
Melina Palmer
So what got your brain buzzing as you learned about the power of saying no today? For me, as someone who wants to do all the things all the time, Aaron jokes that I have more FOMO than anyone in the world. I love having tips and insights on making it easier to say no. We all know we can't do everything and in a world of being thoughtful, I have to say no to a lot of things. It's important to say no more than you say yes. But if I'm too scared or get too anxious about what someone might think if I say no, that I just buckle and say yes and regret it or resent them. That isn't good for anyone. This idea of a pass the salt ask versus a make your famous lasagna ask is such a great mental trick too. This helps to accomplish being kind and generous and working in that all important space of reciprocity to a point and taking the time to know if something is too much work that you can offer an alternative. Or just say no if that's the right response. And sometimes the right response if no doesn't feel great. Remember not yet as an option. I do this with so many shiny objects, things that I want to do but we can't quite do well enough yet and they're not the focus and so I have to not yet them to be able to do what is most important right now. If you want to hear more about the power of not yet, check out my TEDx talk. There's nothing magical about Monday. Now. If you're inspired by the Power of no and empowered Refusal, you're definitely going to want to check out the next brand new episode of the Brainy Business podcast, which comes out in just a couple days. It is my conversation with Dr. Sunita Saw, author of the brand new book Defy the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. It is such a great conversation about why defiance and dissent are important, important and can actually be a sign of good culture at work and how people can help themselves to defy when it matters. And companies can make it easier for their employees to do so and why they should want that. It's a great conversation you definitely don't want to miss. So if you aren't already subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now is a great time to do so so you don't miss that or any other episode. There are links to make it easy for you in the show notes, along with links to my top related past episodes and books, including the Power of Saying no and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 462 and just like that, episode 462 on the power of Saying no with Vanessa Patrick is done. Join me Friday for a brand new episode with Dr. Sunita Sa, author of Defy. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful. Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [42:23]
Dr. Vanessa Patrick
Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.