463. Defy: Embracing the Superpower of Responsibility with Sunita Sah

Summary

The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics Episode 463: Defy – Embracing the Superpower of Responsibility with Dr. Sunita Sa Release Date: January 16, 2025
Host: Melina Palmer

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Introduction

In Episode 463 of The Brainy Business Podcast, host Melina Palmer delves deep into the intricate dynamics of compliance and defiance within business and organizational settings. Joining her is the esteemed Dr. Sunita Sa, an organizational psychologist and the author of the groundbreaking book, "Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes." This episode unpacks the psychological underpinnings of why individuals often comply with detrimental advice and how embracing defiance can serve as a superpower of responsibility.

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Guest Spotlight: Dr. Sunita Sa

Dr. Sunita Sa brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the conversation. With a rich academic background, including a Ph.D. in Organizational Behavior from Carnegie Mellon University, Dr. Sa has extensively researched ethics, influence, trust, and the advisor-advisee relationship. Her work has been featured in top-tier journals like the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and Psychological Science, and she has served on various national commissions and advisory boards.

Notable Quote:
“I was saved by my pager beeping at that point, and that I actually found in my experiments is a really good way.”
— Dr. Sunita Sa [08:01]

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The Psychology of Compliance and Defiance

Dr. Sa begins by sharing her personal journey from being an obedient daughter and medical doctor to becoming an organizational psychologist. This transition was fueled by her intrigue with the conflicts of interest between the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry.

Key Insights:

1. Conflict of Interest and Professionalism:
   Dr. Sa's research reveals a paradox where professionals with a strong self-concept of being unbiased are more likely to accept gifts and comply with conflicting interests, believing in their ability to resist influence.
   Quote:
   “My research shows that actually you're more likely to accept conflicts of interest and gifts from the pharmaceutical industry because you feel so strongly you can resist the influence.”
   — Dr. Sunita Sa [08:01]

2. Insinuation Anxiety:
   This term describes the anxiety of not wanting to signal distrust when an advisor discloses a conflict of interest. Even when aware of the advisor's ulterior motives, individuals feel pressured to comply to maintain the relationship.
   Quote:
   “I call that psychological process insinuation anxiety. So it's the anxiety we feel to not give a negative signal or a negative evaluation about another person to that person.”
   — Dr. Sunita Sa [17:48]

3. Power of a Pause:
   Introducing a deliberate pause before making decisions can mitigate the social pressure to comply, allowing individuals to make more autonomous and informed choices.
   Quote:
   “Having that out, what I call the power of a pause, being able to get away from the advisor and make your decision later really does help.”
   — Dr. Sunita Sa [19:15]

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Defiance as a Superpower of Responsibility

One of the central themes of the episode is viewing defiance not as rebellion but as a manifestation of responsibility towards one’s values and ethics.

Key Concepts:

1. Defiance Compass:
   Dr. Sa introduces a tool to guide individuals in defiance:

   • Who Am I?
     Understanding personal values and how they influence decisions.
   • What Type of Situation Is This?
     Assessing the safety and effectiveness of defying in a given context.
   • What Does a Person Like Me Do?
     Aligning actions with personal responsibility and ethical standards.

2. Superpower of Responsibility:
   Embracing responsibility empowers individuals to stand up for their values, fostering environments where defiance leads to positive change and innovation.
   Quote:
   “Connecting with your responsibility can avoid you getting into situations that you would rather not get into and probably isn't how you view yourself or your values.”
   — Dr. Sunita Sa [33:35]

3. Whistleblower Example:
   Highlighting the story of Jeffrey Wigand, a whistleblower in the tobacco industry, Dr. Sa illustrates how defiance driven by responsibility can lead to monumental shifts in industries, despite personal costs.
   Quote:
   “They really care about those values and enacting them on a day to day basis.”
   — Dr. Sunita Sa [28:04]

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Bridging the Gap Between Self-Perception and Behavior

Dr. Sa discusses the discrepancy between how individuals perceive their integrity and their actual behaviors, a phenomenon evident from a young age.

Findings:

• High self-rated honesty often does not align with reported behaviors like cheating or lying.
• This gap underscores the importance of self-awareness and deliberate practice in aligning actions with values.

Quote:
“What somebody believes their values to be is quite different from how they actually behave in a situation.”
— Dr. Sunita Sa [33:35]

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Practical Strategies for Developing Defiance

To cultivate defiance as a constructive force, Dr. Sa offers actionable strategies:

1. Mindset Shift:
   Redefine defiance as a skill and practice rather than a personality trait. It doesn’t require being confrontational but involves standing up for one’s values calmly and thoughtfully.

2. Defiance Practice:
   Start with small acts of defiance to build confidence and prepare for more significant challenges. This practice helps in developing the muscle to stand firm when faced with ethical dilemmas.

3. Responsibility Connection:
   Leverage the innate sense of responsibility towards others and oneself to fuel defiant actions that honor personal and organizational values.

Quote:
“Defiance is not a personality. It's a practice. It's a skill set that we can use or not use, and we can develop it.”
— Dr. Sunita Sa [43:31]

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Concluding Thoughts and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Dr. Sa emphasizes that defiance, when rooted in responsibility and informed by one's values, is essential for fostering ethical and innovative workplaces. She encourages listeners to:

• Assess True Yeses and Noes:
  Ensure that decisions are informed, understood, and freely made.

• Embrace Defiance as Responsibility:
  Use it to uphold personal and organizational integrity.

• Cultivate a Defiant Culture:
  Companies should create environments where questioning and dissent are encouraged, leading to greater creativity and ethical standards.

Final Quote:
“When we think about what we should do in a particular situation, you want to start with, who am I? What are our values?”
— Dr. Sunita Sa [33:35]

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Further Resources

Listeners interested in exploring these concepts further can:

• Purchase Dr. Sunita Sa’s Book:
  Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes
  Available through the show notes.

• Visit Dr. Sa’s Website:
  sunitasar.com for more resources and to sign up for her newsletter, Defiant by Design.

• Connect with Melina Palmer:
  Access additional episodes, virtual strategy sessions, and workshops at thebrainybusiness.com.

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Closing Remarks

Melina Palmer extends her gratitude to Dr. Sunita Sa for sharing invaluable insights on defiance and responsibility. She encourages listeners to implement the discussed strategies to enhance personal and professional effectiveness, fostering brain-friendly business environments.

Final Thoughts:
“Hopefully this conversation today gave you some tips and insights to help overcome those three fundamental issues that are keeping you from saying no when you should, to find your true yeses and empowered no's, to leverage your superpower of responsibility and to defy more in whatever way that means for you.”
— Melina Palmer [49:34]

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Thank you for tuning into Episode 463 of The Brainy Business Podcast. Join us next Tuesday for another enlightening discussion on the psychology of consumer behavior and business effectiveness. Until then, remember to be thoughtful and stay brainy!

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Welcome to episode 463 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Sunita Sa. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Is defiance good or bad? Should we defy more? Is it the business hindrance it appears to be? Or is it actually good to have a culture where people feel safe to defy? My guest today, Dr. Sunita Sa will answer these questions and more as we discuss her brand new book, Defy the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. Sunita's research focuses on ethics, influence and advice. She is specifically interested in trust, advisor, advisee relationships, conflicts of interest, instructional corruption, transparency, disclosure, improving decisions, influence, compliance, and defiance. In particular, she researches why we comply with bad advice and how disclosure policies can backfire. Using a multi method approach of laboratory and field experiments as well as qualitative analysis and using large real world archival data sets, SAW incorporates organizational behavior, psychology, and behavioral economics to study different aspects of the advisor advisee relationship. Her work has been published in top academic journals including the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Journal of the American Medical association, jama, Internal Medicine, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, and Psychological Science. Her work has also been featured in the New York Times, the New Yorker, Nature, BBC News, Financial Times, Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg businessweek, Boston Globe, and National Public Radio, as well as BBC World television and national radio stations. She recently served as a Commissioner on the National Commission of Forensic Science and on the Human Factors Committee for the National Institute of Science and Technology Forensic Science Standards Board. She's currently on the Advisory Board of the American College center for Ethics and Financial Services, the Editorial Board of the Behavioral Public Policy Journal, the Advisory Committee of the Productivity Institute, the Scientific Advisory Board of the Behavioral Economics and Health Network, and an Officer at the International Behavioral Public Policy Association. She has won Best Paper Awards from the Academy of Management, Society of Business Ethics, Society of Judgment and Decision Making, and Society of Personality and Social Psychology, as well as Scholar Awards from the Russell Sage Foundation, Harvard University, Kellogg School of Management, and the Medical Research Council. And believe it or not, that is a shortened bio and academia is her third career. She's going to Tell us a little more about that when we get into the conversation. And as we dig into the science of Defiance, don't forget there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Sunita and myself, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 463 now let's jump right in. Dr. Sunita Sa, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

It's wonderful to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[Melina Palmer]

Oh, of course. I am so delighted to have you here for this conversation about your fantastic new book, Defy. Before we jump fully into content from the book, can you share a little bit for everyone who doesn't know you yet about yourself and the work that you do?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Absolutely. So I am a physician turned organizational psychologist. In fact, academia is now my third career. I'm happy to delve into what my previous two careers are if you're interested, but currently I am a professor at Cornell University in organizational behavior and I teach courses between the business school and the medical school. And I do work on Defiance compliance, conflicts of interest, trust, influence, advice, and many other things related to decision making.

[Melina Palmer]

I love the defiance compliance, like in the sort of intersection of of those two things. And I know we'll be talking about that a bit today as we go, but definitely would love to hear more about your journey like you said for so talk about those first two careers and the path. Get to know you a little bit better.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes. So it's actually related to it was all perfectly planned how I've ended up here. So as a child I was actually known for being an obedient daughter and student, which is probably why I wrote this book because I had this masterclass in being compliant. And I remember asking my dad at some point, what does my name Sunita mean? And he said in Sanskrit, Sunita means good. And so mostly I was good, right? I listened to my parents, I did what was told. I even had my hair cut the way my parents wanted it my my hair to be. So and these were the messages I got from parents and teachers and the community. And so when I got good grades at school, I was told medicine is the best thing that you can do. And so off I went to become a doctor. And in the UK you enter at age 18, it's a combined undergraduate and graduate degree. So at the time it was a five year degree. I did that degree and I ended up working as a doctor. But during that time I did take a year out to do an intercalated degree in psychology. And I loved that year. I absolutely loved it. And I discovered so much. And I never forgot those psychology days, even though I did what was expected, which was to go back to medical school and end up working as a doctor. And then as I, that's my first career as a doctor in the UK's National Health Service. But I got the opportunity to do some consulting work to the pharmaceutical industry. And that's when I became really fascinated with how industry and the medical profession interact with each other and how they influence each other and the conflicts of interest that are involved. And I wanted to study that in more depth because as doctors we were very much rationalizing, we're not influenced by the pharmaceutical reps. Of course we're not. And then when I was on the other side, I saw very sophisticated return on investment calculations as to how they were influenced. So I spoke to a few professors in London and they said if you really do want to study conflicts of interest and these ethical dilemmas, then you have to go to the us. So I did, I came to the us, There was some fantastic work being done in behavioral economics and decision making in the area that I specifically wanted to study. And so I did a PhD in Organizational Behavior at Carnegie Mellon University and that led me to where I am now.

[Melina Palmer]

Awesome. And so what, I guess in that, you know, dissertation work, what did you study at Carnegie Mellon for your dissertation?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

So I studied conflicts of interest in healthcare. That's what I was first really fascinated with the conflicts of interest and the rationalizations physicians made to accept gifts from the pharmaceutical industry. So I found that sort of sense of entitlement, especially if you remind them of their poor working conditions, but also this sense of professionalism, which I've become recently more fascinated in that if you have a high self concept of being a professional, you think you're not going to be influenced. And what my research shows is that actually you're more likely to accept conflicts of interest and gifts from the pharmaceutical industry because you feel so strongly you can resist the influence. And then you actually end up being more influenced and more biased, yet totally convinced that you are a professional. So that work was really fascinating. And I also, during my dissertation I looked at some of the interventions to mitigate the effects of conflicts of interest. So if you couldn't eliminate them, the most commonly proposed solution for dealing with conflicts of interest is disclosure, transparency and what I found when advisors disclose their conflicts of interest. And I had broadened out at this point so it wasn't just in the medical world, but also in finance. Like people were fascinated by conflicts of interest and disclosures in finance. I found some unexpected consequences of disclosing conflicts of interest and some of the things that happen. This increased pressure to comply that we experience when we hear a conflict of interest disclosure has led to some of my work on Defiance because I saw a couple of things. First of all, I saw how much people comply with bad advice, even obviously bad advice. And this is in the us I conducted experiments in the US and the uk so both countries where they rate agency pretty high and a sense of individualism. And yet I was finding such high rates of compliance with obviously poor advice. And then if the advisor disclosed conflict of interest and actually admitted, hey, I've got an ulterior motive for why I'm suggesting this thing, they trust the advice less a lot of the time, which is arguably the intended purpose of the disclosure, but they end up feeling more pressure to comply and that's because they don't want to signal that distrust to the other person. And I found myself in that situation so many times where you kind of know that the person is not trustworthy, but you don't want to insinuate or send a signal that you don't trust them. So you end up going along with it. And I call that psychological process insinuation anxiety. So it's the anxiety we feel to not give a negative signal or a negative evaluation about another person to that person. And it's a really strong aversive emotional state that we have that we get so concerned about the relationship. And even in one off situations with strangers, I found with my studies that we actually end up complying with them. And so that really inspired some of my work on how can we become more defiant. Because in many situations it's actually not good to comply. In many situations we lose something by being so good or so polite. And we actually need to be able to have the skill set of defying and practice that skill set. So we can do it not just in a moment of crisis, but with small things as well as big things.

[Melina Palmer]

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I, I'm guessing too, as everyone's listening now can see all the circumstances where these come up within the business space, right. So one, as we think about, you know, sales teams, right, as you were saying in that those pharmaceutical reps as they're going out, right? So we know that there's a selling aspect and people who are buying from those who are selling to them. So there's that, you know, Consumer aspect. And also as we think about interacting with, with our. With bosses that are asking us to take on projects or someone's, you know, a, A colleague or a vendor or a this or, you know, and how we ask if someone that is our subordinate asks us for something, do we feel like we have to comply? And if they're on another team and all the dynamics that can come into play from all of these pieces there. You did such an amazing job of telling really, really wonderful stories throughout the book. And I loved how, you know, you talk about your journey and like you said as a, a kid and, you know, following the being, you know, good girl sort of side of things, which I 1000% relate to. Like, that is kindred, you know, in that process. I actually so in the, like, like peek behind the curtain to the type of person I was. And you can see how I think it ties into some of your background as well. When I was in high school, so like senior year of high school, and a bunch of my friends were all planning to skip school toward, like, and it was, you know, because it's like, we're seniors and we get to skip and do the whole thing. It's like, yeah, we're gonna do this thing.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right.

[Melina Palmer]

And so I was like, okay, cool. And so I went and asked my mom if it would be okay and she would write me a note to allow me to skip school with my friends. And she did. Oh.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I don't think my parents would have ever agreed.

[Melina Palmer]

It was like, late in the year and everything was already, like, done. Done and turned in and whatever. It's like, everybody's going to be doing this and, and leaving for the day and I want to be able to go with them, but I don't want it to come up against me as a mark. Like, can we say that I'm. I won't say, I don't know, sick or I have an appointment. I think it was. I had an appointment.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Oh, you're suffering from senior writers, right?

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah. And also, like, but I can't break the rules. But if I have a note of permission for me to go. And I don't think anybody ended up actually skipping school. School. Right. But she was like, ready for me. She was there. She. She made it happen. Thanks, Mom.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah.

[Melina Palmer]

And it's like, but I don't want my friends to know that I had permission to leave. But I wanted to say I have an appointment.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

But you wanted the permission. You wanted the permission. Yes. Well, I'm glad your mom knew what to. Prioritize in that time.

[Melina Palmer]

Right, yes. So we're. We're good on that. So. But, you know, you were talking about. I would love to dig in more because you talk about these examples really well throughout the book and you. About how people feel compelled to comply when the person is there and when they ask and they disclose, and those surprising results that came up from that. Can you just like, dig in a little bit more? You know, why is it that we're more biased when we think that we're really professional, we're not going to be impacted? You know, what's some of the. Like, get into those inner workings. Cause we know, as I had mentioned to you, coming in with a show like the Brainy Business, we like to hear all the brainy, nerdy goodness.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Absolutely. So I can tell you about the first time I met with a financial advisor and I experienced some of these sort of psychological processes firsthand. So I was in my first job in the first couple of months as a junior doctor and I received an invitation to meet with a financial advisor for free at work. And I was working really long hours in those days. I would start at 8:00 in the morning, I would work all day, all night. I would be on call, which was busy, and then work all of the next day till 5 o'clock and then sleep and then do the whole thing again. So it was a one in two. Every other night I had to spend in the hospitals on call room, which was at the top of this, you know, old clock tower that was so cold, had dead crunchy flies on the floor. And I was like, I need warmth, I need blankets. And when I received this invitation to meet with a financial advisor and they were going to come to work and I wasn't doing anything other than working and sleeping at that point in my life, I was like, yeah, sure, I'll come and see you. It's an hour off the wards, I will come and see you. And I remember that meeting so well because it was in the posh meeting room at work, as fancy as you can get in the UK's National Health Service. So it's not saying a lot, but it did have a carpet instead of the stone floors. And so I was like, ooh, a carpet and a couch. And I was like, how did I not know this room was here? And I sat down and I was on the really comfortable couch. And Dan, the financial advisor, when he arrived, he was very tall and handsome and had a big smile, very sharp, sharply dressed in a nice suit. And he spent about an hour with me talking about my extremely limited disposable income at the time. And he built up this fantastic rapport. And then he said that he was. He recommended that I invest in a couple of funds and that he was going to write a report for me and get that report for me to me in a week. And all of this was for free. So I was impressed. And because I was so tired, I blurted out, what's in it for you? I really could not understand my early twenties, why is this guy doing this? You know? And he said, well, there's no such thing as a free lunch. And I think my eyes really widened at that point because I was getting so many free lunches from the pharmaceutical reps, you know, and we love them. And I was like, oh, there's no such thing as a free lunch, and I will receive some compensation if you invest in the funds that I'm recommending. So there it was. He disclosed his conflict of interest, and that disclosure then changed the dynamics of the situation because I did feel less trust in his advice, but I didn't want him to know that. I didn't want him to know that this disclosure had now corrupted this whole rapport that we had built up. So I started to feel more uncomfortable, and I just wanted to sign and say, okay, yes, I'm going to invest in these funds that you're recommending. And it's the same when I really started to study this in depth in the medical world. So if you're a patient and you're going to see your doctor, and the doctor, for example, recommends that you enter a clinical trial, but they disclose the receipt of a referral fee if you enter the trial, then prior to the disclosure, there could have been a range of reasons that you said, no, right. I don't like this particular drug. It's too risky to go into a trial. I want to stick with something I've had in the past. But now that the disclosure becomes salient between you and the other person, it's more likely to be interpreted that if you reject the advice, it is because of the disclosure. And that signals distrust. It insinuates that the other person is biased by their conflict of interest and they cannot be trusted. And so we actually then feel more pressure this time, social pressure, to comply with disclosure rather than without disclosure. And that really undermines the purpose of disclosure in the first place if it has this unintended consequence. I was actually saved by my pager beeping at that point, and that I actually found in my Experiments is a really good way. If we can get some physical distance and we don't have to make the choice in front of the advisor, if we can make the choice in private or we have an opportunity to change our minds, then that really mitigates that social signal to the other person and we feel less pressure to comply. But without it, disclosure becomes this burden that instead of being a warning, it becomes a burden on those that it was supposed to protect, increasing the pressure to go along with and comply with what I found sometimes very bad advice. And they will even admit that the advice is bad, but they just can't say no. So having that out, what I call the power of a pause, being able to get away from the advisor and make your decision later really does help.

[Melina Palmer]

Right. And so for someone who and I know we already discussed, you know, we're going to talk about how this comes into play inside of an organization. So at least right now, if we're so for the person who is going to be deciding, right. So we know the power of like, take a beat, step away. And we can feel there's that, there's that like gnawing at you if like you're talking about, right? Of like, okay, I feel like I have to say yes now, but it feels kind of weird like, and I don't like it, I'm not really sure. And you feel compelled, like you have to answer right then. Right. That's also like when people ask like, well, do you have an idea of the budget or can you just give me some numbers? And you feel like you have to say something because they, they asked. But you could just say, you know, we have to put something together. It's okay to stand for the pause if you need one for whatever reason. And you know, having a plan in advance as we know about that, you know, hot cold action, you know, empathy gap and everything would be really helpful there. But also like you say for the business side, right. To say we always take a beat. There's like a breather before somebody is going to accept and you get then sent like a summary email where you get to say yes or no or something. So that's my like top of mind possible way that the company could build out ways to make it easier for, for people to, you know, defy or say no if they, instead of feeling coerced. What does the science say? What do you recommend?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah, so I mean I, what I encourage people to do with my work is to think about first of all what they true yes and true no. Really are because some, some of the reasons, like you know, this three key reasons I found why people don't actively defy when you know why they say yes, when they really want to say no. And that's because of this pressure, right? There's enormous pressure to go along with others, especially if it's your boss or authority. But I found even in one off relationships with strangers, we still feel that pressure to go along with someone else. So that's one aspect, this social interaction. Another is that we don't actually understand what compliance and defiance are. What is a true yes, what is consent, what is dissent? And then the third one is that once we know that we want to defy, we don't know how to like. What's the skill set, how can we increase our confidence and ability to defy? So if we're looking at how can we understand what compliance and defiance are, is first of all, having worked in medicine, I take the definition of informed consent in medicine, which is really helpful as an ideal, which means that if you have a patient that's consenting to something, there's got to be five elements present. So first of all you have to have capacity, the mental capacity. You can't be under the influence of alcohol, drugs or be really sick that you don't have the mental capacity to make the decision. So that's the first thing that that doctors should do in assessing their patients when they're asking for informed consent. Hopefully we all have the capacity within our workplaces to make an informed decision. But what the other things that we need is knowledge. So we need all the information. Because if we don't have the information, then again we can't give a true yes. But it's not just having been given the information, we must understand it. So we have to understand the risks, the benefits, what the alternatives are. And then, so that's the third element. And then we need to feel free to say no, right? We need to have that freedom in there. And workplaces should work on all these aspects. Giving people information, the understanding and giving them the freedom to say no by modeling it, by encouraging it, by not asking for a decision straight away if it's a big commitment of time. So that freedom to say no is important. And only if those four elements are there. The capacity, knowledge, understanding, freedom to say no. Only then can you give the fifth element, which is your authorization for informed consent or informed refusal, and you can take that framework and apply it to any other critical decision in your life. Because if you don't have those elements, you're merely going along with someone something, you're merely complying with it, which is imposed by something external. It's not your true consent, it's not your true yes that you have the full knowledge, understanding, the freedom to say no and being able to really give like what is a true yes or a true no.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely. And I love the walking through those steps and being able to see are we offering that as a company? Do I feel like I have that as an employee. Employee and being able to use that as a filter? I guess then the question would be, you know, what is the benefit for a company of having, you know, those true yeses or true no's? I always lean back to a conversation I had when Dominic Packer was on the show talking about the Power of Us amazing book that he co authored with Jay Van Babel. We talked a lot about dissent and it's always stuck with me as he talked about how, you know, people only dissent when they care. Typically. Right. Like you, you care a lot at work to be willing to dissent. And while we're not in the. If you're just creating chaos for chaos sake, that's its own thing. But to stand up and, and be willing to fight for something like that, passion doesn't come if you've become complacent. Right. And it feels like it's not worth it. And I don't really care and I' through the motions, you're not going to put in the effort to dissent. But businesses are so built on feeling like any sort of question asking or dissent is like wrong or that person is bad kind of, I think been built into this. But if nobody ever asks questions, I, I'm all about questions. Right. But if we just like have a bunch of yes people, that's not right either. And you can clearly see on the surface why that's wrong. But can you explain why dissent is actually a good sign in an organization and how that, you know, kind of comes together?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah, I think you, you nailed it when you said that. The, you know, when you actually look at like extreme examples of defiance, like whistleblowers and I'm not saying everyone should be a whistleblower, like there's cost of defiance, but there's also many costs of complying, continually complying and putting aside your values. But the whistleblowers, the people that speak up, the people that dissent are the ones that are engaged. They're not disengaged. Right. And they really care. They care about the purpose of the organization. So if you look at Someone like Jeffrey Wigand, who was the whistleblower for Big Tobacco and he worked within the organization. And I delved into his story so much because it's so fascinating the thoughts that he went through and the pressure he had not to speak up about the harmful effects of tobacco. I mean, there was a big campaign against him, he received death threats and his marriage broke down under all of that pressure. And yet he changed. He was single handedly, almost brought the tobacco industry to his knees when he went on 60 Minutes and spoke about the harmful effects of tobacco and what they'd been hiding. And these people have a huge sense of responsibility, this connection with who they are and what they should do in a situation like this. They really care about those values and enacting them on a day to day basis. And he talks about like he used to come home and he felt dirty and he just couldn't live with himself as a scientist not being able to communicate that information. And a lot of us feel like that when we see something unjust or unfair, like we know, like for example, that particular colleague always makes a sexist remark if we don't say anything. We also feel that we are putting aside our values and we're not living up to who we probably aspire to be. And so creating environments where people do feel free to speak up and they have the knowledge to do so can improve workplaces for everyone and lead to more creativity. You know, if you think about it, creativity, you need some defiance to be creative, to be innovative, innovative. Otherwise you're just following everyone else. And if you do all have just yes people, yes men, yes women, that just follow and assess their morality with how well they've been obeyed an order or how well they've pleased their boss rather than really thinking about the purpose of what they're trying to achieve and adding value to not only the organization, but society with the products and the services that they offer, then that is all gone. If you have that really compliant environment where you don't feel safe to speak up and you don't feel safe to question. So these can have enormous effects not only on our well being, but on what we bring to the world.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely. And I love the story from the the man in the with the tobacco industry. So again, as I've already said, very well told, engaging throughout the the book and very relatable. And I think it helps for people to understand like you said. That true? Yes. And I also, I feel like it's a great lead into. I absolutely love that you have a chapter Called, you know, superpower. Your superpower of responsibility. Right. And I might not have said it correctly, exactly. But knowing that we have this, that responsibility is a superpower, can. Can you talk about what that means?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah. So when we think about what our values are, I have my students that go through this exercise, my executive students, like to talk about their values. And, you know, maybe everyone's like, oh, no, not a value based exercise. But the reason I ask them that is because we often don't think very explicitly about our values and where they come from. How do you know if you have a strong sense of fairness? Why? Why? Right. Where did that come from? And usually it's some formative experience. But when I ask the students to write down explicitly their values, one of the top ones is integrity. Nobody wants to be accused of being a liar or not being honest. And we value that, that value so highly. You know, we rate it so highly as part of our characters. It means a lot. It means more than competence to a lot of people that we, at least we have integrity, even though we were incompetent in that particular task. So I asked them to, then I asked them this series of questions is that first of all, in the classroom, rate yourself on your level of honesty relative to other people in the room. So if you think you are the most honest in the room, you should be 100. If you think you're the least honest, you should put zero. And if you think you're about average, then put 50. And guess what they say year after year after year.

[Melina Palmer]

It's like the optimism bias. I can just feel it in here. Right. It's where every single person says they're maybe somewhere between like 95 and 100.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I mean, the ratings are so high. And of course, like, if everybody is saying that, then how can the average be 50? Right. Half the class has to be below 50. But, like, hardly anyone says anything below 80. And nobody says they're average. Like, we're not even going to get into below average. Right. It's just like everybody is up here. Right. This is really, really important. Important. But then when you look at the data, and this starts from a young age, so there was a survey of over 20,000 high school students, and we were talking about you as a senior. Right. So this survey of 20,000 high school students, and when you look into it, nearly two thirds said that they had cheated on a test. Nearly one third said that they had stolen something from a school store in the past year. I found that shocking, but not as upsetting as the last one, which was that over 80% of them said that they had lied to their parents about something significant. And that breaks my heart because I do have a high school student right now, and it's like, what have you lied to me about? Something significant? And these figures are likely to be conservative because 1 in 4 of them said that they had lied on at least one question in the survey. And so we have these really high levels of integrity and honesty. We think we are, but when it comes down to it, there's a gap between who we think we are and how we actually behave. And it starts from this young age. And so my research has shown again and again that what somebody believes their values to be and is quite different from how they actually behave in a situation. And how do we get. How do we close that gap? One of the ways is with what I call the defiance compass, is that most of us, and James March, who's a sociologist, said that when we make decisions, we often, very implicitly, it's not explicit. We ask ourselves these three questions. Who am I? What type of situation is this? And what does a person like me do in a situation like this? And I took those questions and I made them into a compass for defiance. Because when we're thinking about what we should do in a particular situation, you want to start with, who am I? What are our values? What is important to us? Is it integrity? Is it fairness? Is it equity? Is it compassion? Like, what are our values? And then once we know that, we can look outside, like, what type of situation is this? Is it safe for me to defy? Is it going to be effective? And then the last question, which is really important. What does a person like me do in a situation like this? And this is where responsibility comes in. Like, am I responsible? And what I found, like, being somebody who was brought up and socialized and being so wired to comply, and it became my default until I really had to practice how to defy, is that there was certain situations where I found it much easier to defy. And that's when I felt responsible for someone else. So for my child, for a loved one, a partner, a parent. In those situations, we find it much easier to speak up because we feel responsible for the other person. And that superpower of responsibility is something we can tap in every single time. So if you hear that sexist remark, if you know something is unjust or you're being asked to do something unethical, you can connect with your responsibility and who you are, because what you do in that situation Is going to affect your perception of yourself. So that's why I see it as this defiance compass. It goes around in a circle. What does a person like me do in a situation like that? What you do then affects who am I, what type of person am I? So that it really is this superpower of responsibility. And in some of my current research, I'm looking at this aspect of responsibility and culpability. And I have a project with Caitlin Wally, one of my colleagues at Cornell university, where we look at if you take bad advice from someone, something that goes against your better judgment, like, oh, I don't think that's. That's a good thing to do, but you follow that and something bad happens. What you predict in advance is, oh, yeah, someone told me to do it, so I'm not responsible. Somebody else is responsible. But what we actually find in reality when we conduct these experiments is that if you knew better, you actually feel worse.

[Melina Palmer]

Worse, yeah.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

So much guilt.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

We call it the kicking yourself syndrome that you actually feel more responsible. You blame yourself more, not the advisor, and you feel more regret. And you have what we call a greater amount of counterfactual thoughts. And that's really. Counterfactual thoughts is just like, what if? Right. What if I had done something else? And those are increased when you follow bad advice against your better judgment. So you can't actually wish away. Your responsibility is better just to connect with it and become the person that you want to become.

[Melina Palmer]

Definitely. I have a whole episode on counterfactual thinking. Another one on prefactual thinking. So definitely have. I was absolutely thinking about that. And he said, Dan Pink. And when he was on talking about the power of regret, like, all sorts of good stuff. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think we can all feel that when it's brought up, like you said, that kicking yourself. Absolutely. And it's like that I should have known. And like, I did. I know that I knew, and I can't. And when it was brought to my attention that I knew. And it's easy to say, you know, but it's that idea of, you know, I want it on the record, like, put it on the record that I didn't like it. Like, well, you're gonna be really. You're gonna feel worse than everybody if and when something goes wrong, because it's very much listed, you know, that that doesn't actually make you feel better knowing that everybody knew or, you know, that it just doesn't help.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right. Like, you know, it's. It's also like, The Milgram experiments. Right, the infamous Milgram experiments where Stanley Milgram conducting the experiments where they brought people in and gave them supposedly electric shocks to someone else. They weren't actually doing that, but they wanted to see if that sort of refrain heard In World War II, I was only following orders was actually a psychological reality. And they did find a lot of people did follow orders, but it was those that connected with their responsibility. Like I don't want to be responsible for harming someone else that were, that were able to resist and say no, I'm not going to do this, I'm not going to be responsible for harming someone else. Whereas others that continued some of them said like the other person was responsible. So again, connecting with your responsibility can avoid you getting into situations that you would rather not get into and probably isn't how you view yourself or your values.

[Melina Palmer]

Definitely that just made me think about, I have a three year old and he is, you know, this now has turned into my brain. Like I can't possibly say this without the most ridiculous piece of the story. But like he talks about how like where if he's being a dinosaur, we'll do that. Like so it wasn't me, it was when I was a dinosaur that I broke that thing.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I, I have this, this other character that does all the things that I really want to do and I cannot.

[Melina Palmer]

Be the like even more ridiculous than this is. So he's like fascinated with the garbage truck and how it has a robot arm. This has been the whole thing. And so he now it has a robot arm. Right. So one of his arms is a robot arm. And he'll be like robot arm, why are you doing that? And so had to have. And so maybe robot arm hit my sister. But it wasn't me, it was my robot arm. Yes, very much so. So I've been having conversations with him about like so even if robot arm does something, Hudson will get in trouble. Hudson is responsible. And we've been having in the like you can delegate the task but not the responsibility. 3 year olds like you can't trying to explain that to a small child. But that definitely came to mind as that is like top of the, the world around here of conversations that we're having.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

So I love applying it to what we see around us. Right. Starting young.

[Melina Palmer]

Hey, you know, we gotta do what we can to help with that. Well, thank you so much. As we wrap up the conversation, what last, you know, tips, thoughts, you know, for somebody if they're going to go do one thing in addition to getting their copy of Defy, which, of course, we have links in the show notes to make it easy for people, you know, what's, you know, a thing to start with for next best step.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I think one of the biggest things to think about, especially if you had the type of upbringing that I did or perhaps that you did, is to first of all, have this mindset shift that we often think about defiance as being loud and bold and violent or aggressive. And what I want your listeners to know is that you don't have to be a superhero. You don't have to have a strong personality. You don't have to be larger than life to incorporate defiance into your life. So it isn't just for the brave. It isn't for the extraordinary. It's available and necessary for all of us, and we can learn ways to defy that are unique to us with far less angst. And so it just starts with, like, looking at the situation around you and thinking, does this go against my values? Right. Who is it that I want to be? And I do talk about a practice in defiance, because what I've discovered when I was first writing this book and my editor was asking me, who's like, a Defiance model for you? And I didn't grow up with any particular Defiance models, but there were particular moments that I remember, and what they taught me is that Defiance is not a personality. It's a practice. It's a skill set that we can use or not use, and we can develop it. And there's many ways to develop that skill, skill set, starting with these small acts of defiance so you can be prepared in advance for the moment of crisis when it occurs, because you can't just will yourself to be defiant in the moment if you have not been wired that way. So you need to have this practice. And I love this quote that's often attributed to Bruce Lee, but it's actually from a Greek poet that under distress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations, but we fall to the level of our training. And the book is there's lots of important stories in there that hopefully will inspire people, and there's a lot of science in there, but also there's ways that you can practice and increase your confidence and ability to defy. Because when we think about what does a person like me do in a situation like that, you might connect with your responsibility, but you also need the ability and the confidence to defy.

[Melina Palmer]

I love that. Definitely great advice for everyone moving forward, personally, professionally, all across the board, for everyone who's so excited to, you know, connect, learn more. You know what's their best path to follow you and and do more.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah. So you can go to my website, that's sunitasar.com that's a S U n like the sun in the sky S u n I t a s a h.com and you'll find all the links to my social media there. You'll find a link to the book page. You will also can sign up for my newsletter which is called Defiant by Design. That's on substack and I give some useful tricks and strategies for professional growth on there too.

[Melina Palmer]

Perfect. Well, like I said, we'll link to all that in the show notes and to for people to get their own copy of Defy in the show notes for the episode episode. So thank you again so much for joining me today. It's been really delightful to chat with you.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

It was wonderful to chat with you. Thank you.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to Dr. Sunita Sa for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really resonated with the central theme of the book. As Sunita says in the early pages, defiance gets a bad rep a lot. It can get wrapped up in disobedience, but they aren't the same thing. Defiance means acting in accordance with your true values when there's pressure to do otherwise. She goes on to share that our societies are not set up for defiance. We're not always encouraged or allowed to act in accordance with our values. We're taught from a young age how to obey and that obedience is good, disobedience bad. We're not given similar instructions for how to defy. So all too often we give up our agency without thinking. We say yes when we don't mean it. We don't say no when we should. We actively resist defiance, and her research shows we do this for three reasons. First, we face enormous pressure to go along with what others want us to do, whether they're authority figures, friends, family, or even strangers. Second, most of us don't really understand what compliance and defiance are. And and third, once we decide to define to act on our true values, we don't know how to go about it. We lack the ability to translate our inner defiance into outer action. Hopefully this conversation today gave you some tips and insights to help overcome those three fundamental issues that are keeping you from saying no when you should, to find your true yeses and empowered no's, to leverage your superpower of responsibility and to defy more in whatever way that means for you. And of course, to help companies see why it's important to have a culture where people are safe to defy and dissent more and how to start making that possible. As we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes, which include links to my top related past episodes and books, including Defy, Ways to Get in Touch with Sunita and Myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 463. And thank you again to Dr. Sunita Sa for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.