471. Lead Bigger

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics

Episode: 471. Lead Bigger
Release Date: February 13, 2025
Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Ann Chow, Former CEO of AT&T Business

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Introduction

In episode 471 of The Brainy Business Podcast, host Melina Palmer welcomes listeners to a profound discussion on leadership and behavioral economics with esteemed guest Ann Chow, the former CEO of AT&T Business. The episode delves into the intricacies of inclusive leadership, the psychology behind why people buy, and actionable strategies to enhance business effectiveness through a deeper understanding of human behavior.

Ann Chow’s Background and Experience

Ann Chow brings a wealth of experience to the conversation, having led a $35 billion division at AT&T with over 35,000 employees serving 3 million business customers globally. Notably, she was the first woman of color to hold the CEO position at AT&T. Currently, Ann serves on the boards of Franklin Covey, 3M, and CSX, and teaches at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. Her accolades include being named to Fortune's Most Powerful Women in Business and Forbes’ CEO Next List.

Notable Quote:
“At the beginning, at the end of every day, we are who we are, we are not what we do.” – Ann Chow [05:00]

The Concept of Leading Bigger

Central to the episode is Ann’s concept of "Leading Bigger," synonymous with inclusive leadership. She emphasizes that leading bigger involves broadening one’s perspective to enhance performance and impact by embracing diverse viewpoints and inclusive practices.

Notable Quote:
“Leading bigger is all about widening your perspective to have greater performance and impact.” – Ann Chow [10:56]

Bias and Its Impact on Leadership

Ann addresses the inherent biases that leaders possess, both conscious and unconscious, which often limit their ability to lead inclusively. She explains how biases stem from the brain’s need to categorize information quickly but cautions that unchecked biases can hinder meaningful relationships and effective leadership.

Notable Quote:
“To be human is to have bias. If you were saying that you didn't have bias, you would be saying that your brain isn't working properly.” – Ann Chow [14:10]

Belonging in the Workforce

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the importance of fostering a sense of belonging within the workforce. Ann argues that when employees feel understood, valued, and able to bring their authentic selves to work, it leads to increased engagement, productivity, and innovation.

Notable Quote:
“If you feel that you belong, you feel that you are understood, you feel that you are appreciated, you feel valued, you feel that you can bring your authentic self to work and therefore you can do your best work.” – Ann Chow [21:13]

Flexibility in the Workplace

Ann redefines workplace flexibility beyond the commonly misconstrued notion of hybrid work. She explains that true flexibility recognizes the integration of personal and professional lives, supporting employees’ career aspirations and overall well-being.

Notable Quote:
“Flexibility now in the workplace means that you don't have a professional life, you don't have a personal life, you have one life.” – Ann Chow [47:00]

Practical Examples and Personal Stories

Throughout the episode, Ann shares personal anecdotes that illustrate her leadership philosophy. She recounts her transformative experience at AT&T, where rebranding to AT&T Business fostered stronger connections with business customers, and her early career lesson about balancing personal and professional lives through a heartfelt conversation with an employee planning her wedding.

Notable Quotes:

• “Leadership is about getting some kind of work done. And so I think we too often have, and this is because of... inclusion itself has been made too small, stuck at the end of the DEI acronym.” – Ann Chow [19:48]

• “I can say from reading the book, there are so many examples that show along the journey... what you can’t do is separate somebody's personal life from their professional life.” – Ann Chow [42:17]

Conclusion and Final Advice

As the conversation wraps up, Ann offers actionable advice for leaders aspiring to lead bigger. She emphasizes the importance of flexibility, not just in work modalities but in supporting employees’ career aspirations and overall life integration. Ann underscores that great leaders go beyond managing jobs—they nurture careers and personal growth, ensuring their teams can thrive both professionally and personally.

Notable Quote:
“Great leaders also take accountability for career. So while the career is that own individuals, the leader respects it and tries to help enable career aspirations, not just job performance.” – Ann Chow [47:48]

Key Takeaways

• Inclusive Leadership: Embracing diverse perspectives enhances team performance and business impact.
• Understanding Bias: Recognizing and addressing unconscious biases is crucial for fostering meaningful relationships and effective leadership.
• Sense of Belonging: Creating an environment where employees feel valued and authentic leads to higher engagement and productivity.
• Flexibility Redefined: Integrating personal and professional lives through flexible leadership practices supports overall well-being and career growth.
• Personal Stories: Real-life examples illustrate the practical application of inclusive leadership principles.

Final Thoughts

Melina Palmer concludes the episode by highlighting Ann’s journey of growth and her ability to foster inclusive, supportive environments that not only drive business success but also empower individuals. Ann’s insights from her book, Lead Bigger, provide a comprehensive framework for leaders aiming to enhance their effectiveness through understanding and incorporating behavioral economics and inclusive practices.

Notable Quote:
“When you do get to where you're going, you can share the ladder so others can follow. That is a way to lead bigger.” – Melina Palmer [51:13]

For more information, listeners are encouraged to visit thebrainybusiness.com for related episodes, books, and resources.

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This summary provides a comprehensive overview of episode 471, capturing the essence of the conversation between Melina Palmer and Ann Chow. It highlights key themes, notable quotes, and actionable insights, making it a valuable resource for those who seek to understand the psychology behind leadership and consumer behavior.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Welcome to episode 471 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Ann Chow, former CEO of AT&T Business. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[Ann Chow]

Hello.

[Melina Palmer]

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. You've been told before to dream big and to think big, but what about leading big? What does it even mean? And how would one go about leading bigger? Well, my guest today is here to share all about it. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Ann Chow. As the former CEO of AT T Business, Ann led a 35 billion dollar business comprised of more than 35,000 employees who collectively served 3 million business customers worldwide. Known for her inspirational ability to create and grow high performing teams, she was also the first woman of color to hold a position of CEO at AT&T. She is currently the lead Director on the board of Franklin Covey, serves on the boards of 3M and CSX and teaches at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. Widely recognized for her work in inclusive leadership and her impact in driving success at the intersection of people, culture and technology, Ann was named to Fortune's Most Powerful Women in Business twice. Forbes Inaugural CEO Next List of leaders set to revolutionize American business. Most Inspiring Woman in Communications by Light Reading received the Legend in Leadership Award by linkage a Sherm company. Anne is also one of LinkedIn's top voices in gender equity. In 2024, she became the first Asian American to be inducted into the Dallas Business hall of Fame since its inception in 1999. Now, really quickly before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Anne and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 47 1. Now let's jump right in. Anne Chao, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Ann Chow]

Thank you so much Melina. I'm thrilled to be here.

Oh yes, I am so excited to be able to have a conversation and to learn from your amazing experience. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Yes, Absolutely. So first, as it relates to the career that I've had, I was a telecommunications technology executive, worked in that industry for over 30 years, where I retired as the CEO of AT&T business, which was a $35 billion business around the globe serving business customers. I left AT&T a couple of years ago and now I am the rewired CEO. That's actually the name of my llc, but I'm living the portfolio lives. So I serve on a bunch of public company boards, Franklin Covey, 3M and CSX. I also am a senior fellow and adjunct professor at Northwestern, Kellogg, and I recently wrote a book called Lead Baker, which I'm excited to talk to you about and speak and do a bunch of other stuff. But that's a little bit about what I do. But in terms of who I am, I am a proud second generation American. I'm Taiwanese American by heritage, was born in the US And I am a mom, I am a daughter, I am a sister, I am a wife, I am a dog lover. And so I'm very, very excited to see where this conversation takes us.

I love that and I, I love that you shared about these different aspects of your identity, which you talk about, of course, in the book as well. I really love the book the Power of Us by Dominic Packer J. Van Babel. And they talk about how we, you know, move in between different identities all the time. Knowing it gets into some of the theming of the book, as I was saying. But can you share why did you feel it was important to share those different aspects of who you are in your intro beyond just your work life?

Yes. I think one of the things that I have encountered, certainly throughout my career and even to today, this part of my career, is that the first thing we tend to ask people is, hi Melina, what do you do without regard to who the person actually is and what work you work on? You know, your job is different than who you are.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And I think there's something that is lost when we don't spend the time to actually try to get to know someone, the person. So depending on the, you know, depending on the environment, the forum, I usually try to cover both because they are both relevant and important to the conversation. Right. And certainly when you're doing a podcast or you're giving a speech or even in conversation, understanding where a person is coming from is vital for the context of what they're saying and how you engage with them. I've fancy myself a lifetime student and practitioner of leadership. And this is the way that I learned to lead, I learned to lead bigger, you know, pun intended, with respect to the title of my book. And that's why I think it's so important because, you know, at the beginning, at the end of every day, we are who we are, we are not what we do.

[Melina Palmer]

Definitely.

[Ann Chow]

Yeah, I, I love that. And I was reminded, as you were talking about, I had written down a quote from the book that actually comes up much later in the book. So we'll, we'll skip over and we'll come back to, you know, central theming. But this idea that work is not. Is what something you do and not just a place you go, right. So as we think about the individuals within the business and that people aren't just one thing, right. We have. And the way that we, this nature nurture of like how we grew up and gender and all sorts of different aspects of our lives shape how we approach situations. And also as we think about our jobs, it doesn't just have to be about the physical location. Feels like these things might be at odds, but actually, you know, we find in the book that they can come together. Can you share a little bit about those thoughts about work?

Yes, absolutely. So what the pandemic did.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

Years ago. Right. What the pandemic did was catalyze an advancement of the how and why we work.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

I believe this wholeheartedly. You know, so many people around the world immediately had to pivot to a remote or virtual environment. You know, I got a first seat, you know, firsthand seat to that, just given the role that I had serving business clients all over the world, they changed immediately their needs for communications and the configuration of their networks and where their people are and what they needed in terms of communication services and networking.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

So I had a front row seat to all of that in terms of the work that I did. And what that pandemic also did was it reminded us in a somewhat somber but also profound way that there's nothing more powerful than human connection. We need it to live, we need it to survive, and we need it to thrive. And even those of us that might fancy ourselves introverts or ambiverts, we need it. And that really, to me, is what leadership is all about. And so when you think about that massive pivot that occurred, sure, we used to have people who telecommuted who were virtual workers, but we never really profoundly thought about. We still said, hey, I'm going to work. I'm going to work for decades and decades and decades, it was all about centuries Honestly, it was about going somewhere to go to work. But now we know that as far as technology has advanced and continues to advance, work is something just simply that we do, and we can do it much of our work, anywhere, anytime, Right. I happen to have been in the business of selling tools and technologies that heavily enabled that. And that is not to say that the importance of in person, human connection isn't important. There hasn't been, I think, Melina, there's this misnomer that it's the younger generations who don't want to come in for physical connection. Right? That's so not true. There isn't a single person that I've talked to of any generation, of any demographic, of any background who doesn't agree that it is easier to build relationships in person, period. And stop.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

The question that we have to ask ourselves as leaders and as people is what kind of work is that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

What kind of work requires that we come together physically, that requires that we come together digitally versus that kind of work that we can all do sort of independently. All of us have some element of that in our roles, no matter what our job is or what industry that we're in. And so this idea that work is just simply something we do requires that we integrate the notion of work into our lives in a much more thoughtful way. You know, I've been known to say that work life balance is bogus. I actually really dislike the term because it implies that work is separate from your life. When we work a third of our lives, work is an integral part of your life.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

No matter how you define it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

Our work for many of us gives us purpose, and it's so much more than our job. And so that's what I was trying to do in the book is really expand our aperture, expand. Expand our thinking and therefore our behaviors and the thoughtfulness in which we approach others and in which we lead them.

I love that. Thank you so much for taking that jump with me to something. Like I said, I know is built on a lot of foundations in the book, but felt relevant at least at that first moment. So as we make our way back, you know, to the central theme here on the book, of course, in what does it mean to lead bigger? And also, you know, why. Why do you think we're wired to lead small?

Yeah, I love it. I've never been asked that specific question in that particular way, so I do love it. So why. Why lead bigger? And what is lead bigger? So I tend to use lead bigger synonymously with inclusive leadership. But not the more narrow definition of DEI flavor inclusiveness. Here's simply what I mean by leading bigger and inclusive leadership. Leading bigger is all about widening your perspective to have greater performance and impact, and that's it. The way you widen your perspective is through other people. Different kinds of people, other data sources, different types of information sources. Given how interconnected the world is and how rapidly things are changing, whether it's geopolitically, technologically, economically, politically, socially, the need and the demand to widen your perspectives as a leader at all times is growing, right? And I would be so bold to say that if you don't choose to lead inclusively because inclusion is a choice, right? It. It's a choice to think more broadly, it's a choice to act more broadly, it's a choice to engage others more broadly in your decision making, right? Then you will ultimately lose to a leader who is right. You'll miss out on a trend in the marketplace. You'll miss out on cultivating next gen talent and having the best workforce of today and tomorrow, right? Now, let me then get to so from that very simple, straightforward, and I hope, powerful definition of leading bigger, you know, inclusive leadership. Why is it that we're wired to lead small? There are a couple of. There are, there are so many reasons. But let me, let me touch on the ones that I explicitly attempt to address in the book. One is bias, right? Bias is, you know, I had the opportunity to co author a book a couple of years ago called the Leader's Guide to Unconscious Bias. And we start out the book with this sentence. To be human is to have bias. If you were saying that you didn't have bias, you would be saying that your brain isn't working properly. And for those who are unfamiliar with the topic of bias, it really just sits in neuroscience in the sense that we absorb so many pieces or we're exposed to, I should say, so many pieces of information in any given second and moment that our brain can only process a minute fraction of what we're exposed to. And so what we naturally do is categorize, organize what we're seeing, which then shapes our bias. There are two. At the highest level, there are two types of bias, conscious bias, bias which we know and are aware of. And I'm not just talking about preferences or predispositions or prejudices for or against someone or some group, but things, foods, regions of the world, climate. Bias exists in every facet of our life, right? It's the unconscious bias that can get us because it shapes our thinking, it shapes Our behavior, it shapes our decision making and it can stand in the way of us developing meaningful relationships with others. It can stand in the way with how we communicate with others. So bias is really the underlying reason for why I believe we are wired in some ways to lead small. An example of that might be think about when you run into someone who is from the same hometown as you or went to the same alma mater. It's almost like an instant affection. And if you can imagine if you were a hiring manager and you had two candidates, one was from your hometown and went to your same alma mater, you can't tell me that there's like a normal human being out there who wouldn't have a natural predisposition and bias, right. A leaning towards that other person because we want to find common ground with people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

It gives us comfort and it gives us happiness.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And in some cases joy when we find similarities with other people. But that comfort is also what can work against us because it closes our minds to that which is uncomfortable, which is really how we learn.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

You really are not growing to your fullest capability unless you're uncomfortable in some way, unless you have a self awareness that you admit that you don't know something or you're wading into unchartered territory, you know? And so it is about bias, it's about comfort. It's about this desire to seek common ground and establish common ground, but also be very, very mindful of working to elevate those unconscious biases to your level of consciousness. You can't do this yourself, by the way. Right. You need others to help you see some of those things.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And so that's why I view that sometimes we're wired to lead small. It's just that natural human inclination that we all have. And also I think it's just by definition, we see things from our own point of view. Empathy is a emerging word as it relates to leadership. And I would say if we compared to the number of times empathy was characterized as an important trait of leaders pre pandemic versus post pandemic, we'd have seen a massive increase on what leaders now have to do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

To be able to relate to their people, to be able to create work environments where people feel like they can bring their whole selves that they can thrive in. Right. That they can have high performance in. And that's fundamentally shifted and evolved. And it's not going back to the way it was.

Right? Yeah. Well, and with that, I mean, it's not that we shouldn't have been empathetic before.

Right, right, right.

We weren't talking about it enough or didn't realize it as much as we, we should have. And I think that's really important with that. It also brings me to. I really was struck by. I love that you have parts of the book, you know, chapter and more that is dedicated to the idea of belonging versus just inclusion and talking about kind of the differences there. Can you expand a little bit about what you see when it comes to belonging and know that if you want to step back and talk about the kind of the triangle and the three sections in the book first, that's of course totally fine.

Absolutely. So maybe I'll do that. Molina, just so that people set like an anchoring on what we're talking about here. Because you and I know what we're talking about.

Yes.

So the book is framed on three, with three sections and my lead beaker framework. My lead beaker framework that I call it. It's this triangle that Molina was just referencing. And I start out with work. Second section is. Is about the workforce. The third section is about the workplace and I use the word workplace to refer to the broader work environment. Workspaces refers to actual work locations, whether it's your car, an office, a manufacturing site, a customer site, whatever the case may be. There's a bonus section that I'll just take a moment to highlight right now that because I'm so committed to widening perspectives not just for others but also myself, I wanted to include some other voices on their perspective on the importance of inclusion and how inclusion showed up in their lives and their views of inclusive leadership. So I had one on one conversations with General Stanley McChrystal, Arianna Huffington and Adam Grant. And those are actually featured in the very last section of the book as three very different but notable thought leaders on the topic of inclusion. That's how the book is framed up. Then I'm going to go to your question Molina, about belonging. When you think about the desired outcome from leading inclusively, it's really one or both of these things. The desired outcome is connection and or belonging. The reason why I start the book out with the work is this is a leadership book. Leadership leaders. When you think about what leadership is, leadership is the ability to inspire and motivate an align of group of people to get something done against a common goal, something that is bigger than themselves. And that's just simply what leadership is. Right. Leadership is all about people. When leaders do something, they are leading some kind of work could be community, could Be in the family. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the corporate workspace, could be in academia, it could be in the public sector. And so leadership is about getting some kind of work done. And so I think we too often have. And this is because of. This is actually a quote from the book. One of my personal favorite quotes, if I do say so myself, is that inclusion itself has been made too small, stuck at the end of the DEI acronym. What I mean by that is that many people think about inclusion as something associated with your workforce solely and about gender and race representation, that that's what it's specifically about. And while those things are important, they are just a part of what true inclusion is. So I believe that inclusion can be and must be applied to your work, not just your workforce, which is why the outcome is connection and or belonging. Do you not want your customers and your investors, current and potential, to feel connected to your company? Of course you do, because then they'll buy your services, they'll invest more in your business. Right. Do you not want your suppliers or the communities in which you live, work and play to feel connected to your company?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

Maybe some of them even belong, depending on the nature of your business, Right. If you're a healthcare business, there's no question you want your community to feel like they belong in your system, right? Because they have choices. And so belonging, I think, is a word that most of us can resonate with as it relates to your workforce. Of course you want your workforce, whether they're full time employees, your suppliers, your contractors, your gig workers, to feel that they belong in the environment. Why is belonging so important? Because if you feel that you belong, you feel that you are understood, right? You feel that you are appreciated, you feel valued, you feel that you can bring your authentic self to work and therefore you can do your best work. You know, the, the I, I have been debated on this point, Molina, throughout my career around. Is belonging really that important? And how, how important is authenticity really?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

How important is well being really? You know, it sounds like all soft stuff and I say it's vitally important, right? It is people who make up the business. People drive the business. The business doesn't drive people. Every business is a people business. The business would not exist without people. And so belonging is vitally important because how can you do your best work if you are not at your best?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Ann Chow]

And being at your best means that you feel that your well being is supported, you know, physically, emotionally, mentally, financially.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

That you can be at your best, which means that you're not spending time worrying about psych, being bullied or being micromanaged or being, you know, out politicked, if you will, right. That you can actually bring your best self to work and therefore do your best work in a culture of belonging. And that is why belonging is so, is so important. I mean, there's plenty of data out there. You know, I'm not, I'm not a researcher, but I do reference various research sources throughout the book. Nor am I an academic. I'm a practitioner, lifetime practitioner. But there's plenty of data that shows that when an organization has a culture of belonging, attrition is down, employee engagement is up, employee productivity is up, innovation is up. It's all of the great things that come with a comprehensive approach to inclusion and to embracing diversity of as many different dimensions as possible.

Well, thank you. And definitely in the kindred spirit world in the, where, you know, I wrote a book called what your employees need and can't tell you. And in the space of behavioral science and understanding people in businesses and how human connection is so key, whether it's customers that are buying who are human people.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

So we want to understand how they make decisions. Even as, you know, AI is doing more within, you know, our work, where we may say, like, maybe some of your colleagues are not human at some point, like that's a thing that's happening for people, but you still have quite a few that are people. And again, that customer aspect, like you were saying on the, that workforce side, the belonging, you know, get it pretty intuitively. But let's, let's take a little bit to talk about what it means to have belonging in the work. And I think, you know, you, you share in the book about even just the, the fact that there is AT&T and AT&T business. I, I think is a good example of how you can be, be understanding those customers, you know, whatever else you feel like is a strong example for people to understand what it means to have this inclusiveness and belonging in the work itself.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I'll share that example that you mentioned for, you know, for your audience here, and then I'll take a step back and just talk strategically about sort of the pillars of inclusion at work. Right. The idea of connection, how you build connection not just with your workforce, but with, with others. So the example that Melania is talking about is one that I share in the book, at AT&T. So AT&T is a company that I think most people are aware of that provide communication services to Businesses and to consumers. And has since the beginning of, you know, of the industry, if you will. You know, it's a company that's upwards of almost 150 years old, but it serves both businesses and consumers. So most people, when they think about AT&T, they think about the phone company or their cell phone company, right? They think about being a consumer of the services because that's what we most relate to, right? As humans, we are all consumers on some level. And most of us now have at least one phone, right? One mobile phone and multiple mobile devices. I've had my career mostly intentionally on the business to business side of AT&T, meaning not the consumer side, but the part of AT&T that serves businesses. So global multinational companies, small businesses, think about the mom and pop dry cleaner around the corner pizza shop, the public sector, think about federal and state and local government, education, healthcare. So across all industries, all different sizes and shapes of business, customers. A couple years back, quite a few years back, we had gotten feedback from our business customers that they didn't see ourselves in the branding work that we were doing, right? They didn't see ourselves in the commercials, they didn't see ourselves in our assertions of strategy. They didn't see themselves in even how we announced earnings and how we talked about the marketplace, right? They clearly saw the consumer marketplace, but they didn't see themselves in us. So we went on a listening tour, listened to various stakeholders, including our employees, as well as analysts and numerous customers from all sectors, and realized that the messaging that we were doing at a corporate level, which was very much value based, value and simplicity based, hey, here's the latest phone for a great deal, right? Switch now or something like that, right? That business customers wanted an elevation of sophistication because they were putting everything into their business. The importance of our services was simply growing. When you think about a business whose customers can't reach them, right? Their website is down or you can't chat, their chat capability is down or you can't call them or you know, their point of sale system. How many of us have been to a shop where their point of sale system, they can't take credit cards, they can only take cash, right? It's like what, who carries cash anymore, right?

What is that?

It's so disruptive to the customer experience. And you can actually lose business right from it. You can in fact lose brand reputation, but you can actually lose business from it. And so we decided to create a sub brand called AT&T business. And it was more than just an Advertising exercise. It was a strategy about how we would organize against market segments, how we would communicate, how we would market and bundle and package our products and services. You know, we committed to a set of industry verticals, whether it was financial services or health care or state, you know, state governments, so that we could be much more customer centric around that business customer. We actually launched a campaign when all of this went down about the power of. And because business customers want reliable service and secure service and solutions that meet their business and a meaningful relationship and competitive pricing and the latest innovations. Right. And an excellent customer experience.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And so, and, and, and, and, and so this was unbelievably successful. We were the ones first ones to do it in the industry. And if you were to look now at whether it was a cable company, other communications, telecom companies, they all have business next to their corporate name for their parts of their organization and parts of their business that support business to business customers. And so fundamentally, this was all in an effort to connect more tightly with the marketplace because this was a vital part of our growth strategy and our investment strategy. It was a meaningful, it's a meaningful part of the business. And we were just missing the mark. And so the cool thing about this is we didn't hire a bunch of research companies, we didn't hire a bunch of consultants. Consultants. We went and listened to our stakeholders, right? And we took a comprehensive view of our stakeholders to get that input. Okay? And so that, that's, that's a story that I, that I tell in the book. That is a great example of creating more connection, belonging, maybe even to, to a certain extent with stakeholders who are outside of your employee base. Now the, the benefit of this actually became we got even more engagement with our employees, right? Our AT&T business employees, we create, you know, we had swag specifically for them. And I can remember the first couple of years after we did this, the Pride in wearing AT&T business swag. It was immeasurable, right? Because people now felt like, oh, now, you know, now they see me, they see that this is what I do, right? And there's a level of professionalism and pride that you want in all of your team members, right? Because they bring that forward in their interactions out in the market with customers and others. Now let me take a step back because this may seem like a very specific example, but how you apply inclusion in your work is really, this is kind of how the book is structured. There's really three things. Purpose, values and performance. A little bit about each. The purpose of Your work is something that every single one of us can better articulate to our teams. You don't have to be a CEO, you don't have to run a big unit or even have a big organization, but to be able to articulate the meaning of your work in the why of what you do and for whom you're doing it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

An example of this, I had a. My very, very first leadership job was this is actually the story opening story of book was when I was running a customer service team. I was like in my mid-20s, 20s, I never managed the group of people. This was hundreds of people spread across the country. And the group's job was to provide customer service for AT&T businesses, toll free customers. If you remember those 800 numbers back in the day. And when I came in, I knew that I had a big opportunity with which to lead differently. My people were not expecting it. They were very, very skeptical. Long story short, I could have said, hey, the purpose of our work is to deliver excellent customer service. But what I reframed after a couple of months of really learning and listening to customers as well as to my team members and others was the purpose of what we do is to deliver customer experience excellence while growing customer trust. No customer was ever calling us to tell us that our service was working great, that the bill was 100% perfect, or guess what, your service didn't go down today. So I knew that every customer interaction we had was part of a broader customer experience, but that the customer's trust, depending on how bad the situation, how severe the situation was in their eyes, was an opportunity to grow trust and rebuild trust. And that was really what we were about. Right? So to elevate our work to its purpose helps people see how important their job is, how meaningful that work is, is, and how they can actually contribute to the top line and bottom line of the company.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

So different than saying we provide customer service.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

I mean, that sounds like a cost center.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Ann Chow]

You know, so that is an example of purpose. The second aspect of creating connection and belonging was around values and making sure that you are very, very clear about what your professional values are. On a growing basis. People want to do business with companies who have similar values to theirs. Right. And whether the values are around sustainability, around innovation, around respect, integrity or otherwise, you have to have a clear set of values on a growing basis. By the way, as well, the workforce, our team members, the people with whom we work, they want to work in a place where the professional values of the organization much more tightly aligned with the personal values they have. Right. I also think, Molina, that this is something that has changed post Covid, is that because we as society realize the fragility of life, a lot of people question what they were working on and introspectively decided, you know what? This is not aligned with me, with who I am. Right? With my personal purpose and my personal values. I need to work in a place because I need to feel that I belong, to do my best work. You know, I think a lot of people went through that soul searching, if you will, to recalibrate their lives in the context of their work. And, you know, the. I still call them emerging workforce, which dates the fact that I'm a Gen Xer. But millennials and Gen zers, those born 1981 and later, who now represent 50% plus of the workforce, we can't even say emerging. Their alignment to purpose and values is even stronger. Upwards of 90% of that generational cohort want to work in an organization whose purpose is aligned with theirs. Between 40 and 50% of that cohort will turn down an assignment or turn down a job if they feel that the values are not aligned with their personal values. And if I think on reflection, Molina, to even where we started when you had me introduce myself, this is why it's important to know who someone is. You can't ignore the fact that there is a person and there is a personal person there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

A set of personal values, a set of personal ambitions, a set of personal aspirations and dreams and needs and wants behind every single member of your team.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And every leader. You know, I'm not saying a leader has to be a therapist. Right. But every leader must respect and embrace that fact in a way that is very different today than when I started in the workforce in the 1990s.

Absolutely. Just as you were saying that too. I think it's so important to note that in the way you're explaining that it's not just the, like, demographic box checking of understanding a person. Right. We have to get to know them in a way that the, you know, asking thoughtful questions, knowing people aren't just like us. And how I got here and what I am striving for isn't necessarily what my employee wants and sees as their career path and being able to understand what they care about. I've shared an example. I thought it was interesting reading in your book. You have something sort of similar. But I had an employee once who was showing up late for work and was missing meetings and missing deadlines and just kind of things Were not looking good. And it was like, hey, you're going to have to really talk to this person. You know, realizing I had to have this conversation. Um, and you know, for the go to being, you know, gotta write you up and like, don't ask other questions and like, be better, start doing well. Right. Which is not necessarily helpful. Um, and so we were having a one on one. I'm a big fan of having one on ones. And I've always loved Susan Scott talks about how you should ask, you know, what's the most important thing we should be talking about today? Is how you kick off a one on one to which the thing the person says is a hundred percent. Like maybe not a hundred percent, but usually not what you think is the most important thing or what you think they're going to say it is. So letting them get out, whatever's in there is important.

That's right.

And in this particular meeting with this person, she said, oh, I wish we could talk about my wedding. And so I said, all right, you know, lay it on me. Tell me what's. What's going on. Right. Which might be surprising. Right. Because it's not my job, I shouldn't have to care about that or whatever. And you know, of this one hour meeting, you know, 30 minutes or 40 minutes, we're talking about what color bridesmaids dresses she should have. And she's struggling with the design of the invitations and like all these different things. And then you just as she gets that all out and then she stops and says, all right, like takes a breath and says, okay, I, I know I haven't really been showing up well and I've been late and I want to fix it. Like, let's talk about these priorities and like what I can shift. And we start having this conversation and she stopped showing up late.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

We were able to make some adjustments. Seeing that cognitive strain made such a difference for her of being able to be her best self. I didn't have to write her up. She was a really good employee. Otherwise it was just a difficult point. And we don't get to separate. It'd be nice to say, like, wedding planning, me like stays at the door and like, here's just work me right, and I'm doing things right. It just isn't how it works. And so you had an example in the book of one of your employees who was planning a wedding, I think. And so it reminded me of that while I was reading. Do you want to share what your story was?

Mine is much less evolved. It Was very early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a confession. This is a true confession moment. But I am happy to share it because it was a big learning for me. So this is very early in my career in one of the very first jobs. So I didn't have a large team. I had like two employees, but she was one of them. So one of my very. Is actually literally my. I think it was my second job, okay. In the company. So I am. I am green as green can be. And, you know, because I was green as green can be and super early in my career, I was, you know, your typical, you know, typical go getter. I was like all over it. I was checking my voicemail because that's what we did back then. Voicemails and emails all the time, right? And I just worked at a fairly frenetic pace. It just was how I was wired. Well, this one employee that I had who was very well rated and carried a bulk of the load of the work, she was engaged and I was very demanding, okay? I did not stop to ask her what she needed, right? I just was going, going, going, right? I would consider myself a manager, not a leader at that time, right? It was really my first management job because I failed her as a leader. So after like a couple of months with me, she came to me and expressed her desire to move to a different role, right? And I was completely floored. Like, oh, my gosh. First of all, I was panicked, right? Because just like most of us humans, I immediately thought, self servingly, oh, my gosh, what will I do without you? Right? She was good, right? And then I. So then I asked her why, right? And it became clear to me that the reasons why she was, the reason she was giving were all my problem, right? That the fact that she just was feeling too much pressure, could not respond around the clock because she was planning a wedding, right? Such an incredible, beautiful time in your life, right? And I realized in that conversation I was the problem, okay? And that took an immense amount of introspection and humble pie to eat, by the way, on my part. And I apologized to her and I told her that I would absolutely do better. That I so valued her and her contributions and I wanted to create an environment where she felt like she could thrive, right? And I ratcheted it down, man. You know, I. I learned how to ask some of those questions, right? I realized early, early on is that like you just said, you cannot bifurcate somebody's personal life from their professional life. They have, you know, they have one life. And as Personal and professional dimensions that are now, 30 plus years later, even more integrated than they once were.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And that was a hard lesson for me. But I think it was so important for me to have that lesson early on to know, you know what? I, as the manager, right. Aspiring leader, have responsibility to everyone on my team to care for them in a way that they don't teach you in business school. Right, right. You know, because humans are perfectly imperfect.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And what it takes to motivate and inspire one person is going to be different with some person. And usually if something is going on, if you haven't created the environment with which they're comfortable enough to tell you, you might make a mistake, you might have actually gotten rid of that fantastic employee. I might have actually lost this employee, one of two people in my group that would have negatively impacted my ability to meet the business's needs that was negatively impacting her in such an important part of her, her life. Right. And her ability to find joy in this part of planning her wedding. Right. And, and having her wedding and going away. So that was my story about the wedding. Much, much, much, much less, much less evolved than yours, you know, I do. I will say though, I will say though, Melina, to your comment about the one on ones which I am also a fan of, I think there's, there's kind of like a movement now that is anti one on one. I don't really quite understand it, but for me I would, you know, when I was asked this all the time, right. When you establish them, well, what do you want to talk about? And I would always say, I don't know, whatever you want to talk about, right. I mean literally you can use the time or not use the time. You can talk about whatever it is you want to talk about. People, work, whatever, family, whatever you want to talk about.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

And it was fascinating to see how each individual handled it differently. Right. Some people came in with no paper and just freeformed ideas. You know, some people would come in with like a nice proper one pager with bullets that we would work through all of the bullets, right. In priority order. Some people came with full on presentations that they would want to walk me through and you know, take me through these various topics with analytics and stuff. And in my mind, right. Being a great leader, one of the characteristics is you, you gotta, you gotta be what your people need to bring out the best in them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

Because if you can bring out the best in them individually, you can then focus on bringing out the best in the whole group. So I'm a. I'm a fan of the one. I'm a fan of the one on one.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And like I said, I knew we were kindred spirits anyway. And I think for everyone to be able to know that where you're saying you weren't as evolved and the reaction you had, though, is so clearly showing that that's not true.

Right.

Like, you made a mistake and in that moment, you, you took the time to look and, you know, like you said, see the giant humble pie in front of you and eat it as you, like, reflected. And I can say from reading the book, there are then so many examples that show along the journey of points and decisions you made of. You know, we had three different opportunities of people to work with and someone says they only meet with their team members on Sundays, and you said, that sounds bad. Like, I don't want to do that. Even though it could have been a better scenario, but like taking care of you and understanding what that means about this boss and that team and all these different insights you share, which we of course don't have time to get into them all. But the, the audience I know is now excited, of course, to go get their copy of Lead Bigger, which we'll have a link for in the show notes. If you were going to have one kind of like, final thing for people as a place to start, it could be like, if they were listening to those stories and realizing, oh, no, I didn't eat the humble pie. What do I do now? Or I'm further along, I'm not in my 20s. How do I Lead Bigger? Is it too late for me? You know, what sort of last advice would you give to, to the listener?

Last advice. Oh, gosh, I'm. Let's see. In my head, I'm thinking about, do I start at the front or do I start at the back of the book? Right. Do I start with the end in mind? I'm going to. I'm going to do a. I'm going to do a 7 Habits of Highly Effective People thing from, you know, from Stephen Covey. And I'm going to begin with the end in mind, right? So I'm going to start back, end of it because it's kind of. It's a kind of a nice circle to where we actually started the conversation, which was more towards the back of the book. And that is my last chapter of the book before the three conversations with the three, you know, with the three thought leaders is called flexibility. And here's what I would leave with all of you on what flexibility is. Because my guess is, is if I were to ask each one of you what does flexibility at work mean, 90 plus percent of you would say it means hybrid work.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Ann Chow]

That's what flexibility means today. And I would say hybrid work is an aspect of flexibility, but it is simply an aspect of it and a current tool and approach. What flexibility now in the workplace means is that the fact that. And Melina and I have touched on this in the time that we've been together, so this will not be a surprise, but I'll say it even clearer. What flexibility now means in work is that you don't have a professional life, you don't have a personal life, you have one life. This is true for you and every single one of your people. And your job as a leader is to recognize and respect the fact that your role with your person is for their job.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay?

[Ann Chow]

But recognize that their job sits in the context of their career, which sits in the context of their life.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

I had this great question in a recent form that I did, and the person asked me, and in this framework of flexibility, what is the difference between a good leader and a great leader? And here's what I would say. Good leaders respect and understand the fact that their interaction with their person is about. Is that with the person is about the job. And they respect the whole framework of this is their life. And I have to support and lead them as such. Great leaders also take accountability for career. So while the career is that own individuals, the leader respects it and tries to help enable career aspirations, not just job performance.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

You know, and one. One quick story about this is, you know, I had. I had a leader once who I went to a role to be her chief of staff. It was a role that I actually declined her several times on and turned out to be one of my best jobs ever. But I expected to go do that job for 18 months, a year and a half, which is pretty typical. She let me go, I should say she pushed me out at eight months. Why? Because she saw something in me and I had done what I needed to do for her that she wanted to push my career. Right. I was perfectly fine to serve out my time with her and my commitment to her, but she pushed me out because she thought bigger than herself. Like, hey, yeah, this is great if Ann stays here and does my job, which is great for me and great for the organization, but Ann could actually have a bigger impact in a bigger job and I need to go help her get there. And it's aligned with her career aspiration. So it helps her achieve her goals. Right. And her dreams faster. That's the difference between a good leader and a great leader. But that's the notion of flexibility. So it not only includes, includes modalities of work.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Ann Chow]

But it also includes what benefits your company may offer, the environment of which you cultivate, how you communicate, what tools you use to communicate, how you think about wellness and well being in terms of working to fortify that for every single one of your people. It's all of those things together is really what flexibility is all about. Because, you know, if you're sitting there thinking, and this sounds really, really squishy, I will tell you, this is about talent and this is about getting the best people on your team today and the best team tomorrow. And this is what they want and this is what they need. And the leaders and organizations who do this in a bigger way are going to be the ones who win because people want to go. The best people are going to want to go work in those organizations.

Absolutely. Yeah. You attract great talent when you're developing.

And retain great talent.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love that wonderful bow to put on the end of the episode. So thank you, Ann, for joining me today to share about Lead Bigger. As we've already said, we'll have links in the show, notes for people to follow you on LinkedIn and check out the and get their copies of the book. So thank you again. It's been delightful to chat with you today.

Thank you so much, Moline. It's been my pleasure.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to Ann Chow for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love the way Anne was able and willing to share her own story throughout the book and our conversation. I know she joked about not being as evolved or whatever during our conversation, but of course taking the time to look back and reflect, to really see how you could have done better and different as a leader, to support, support those around you says Wonders. I also love how she was able to grow into her role, achieve new heights like being AT AND T's first woman of color CEO. And to do so while lifting others along the way is really fantastic. Some people love to say things like you have to only think about yourself to get ahead or that the only way up is by stepping on others. But that just isn't true. Even if others around you are making those bad choices on their way up, you don't have to. And whenever you do get to where you're going you can share the ladder so others can follow. That is a way to lead bigger and I want to thank Anne again for joining me on the show to share her insights and fantastic book. There are of course links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books including Lead Bigger as well as ways to get in touch with Ann and myself and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 471 and thank you again to Anne Chow for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.