483. Unlocking the Laws of Connection

Summary

Episode Overview

Title: Unlocking the Laws of Connection
Podcast: The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: David Robson
Release Date: March 27, 2025
Duration: Approximately 48 minutes

In Episode 483 of The Brainy Business, host Melina Palmer engages in a deep conversation with David Robson, an award-winning science writer and author of the insightful book Laws of Connection. The episode delves into the psychology of human connections, exploring how understanding and applying these principles can enhance both personal relationships and business interactions.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Melina Palmer opens the episode by highlighting the fundamental human need for connections, emphasizing that establishing strong relationships is crucial for success in both life and business. She introduces David Robson, detailing his impressive background in science writing and his notable works, including The Intelligence Trap and The Expectation Effect, before focusing on his latest book, Laws of Connection.

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2. David Robson’s Background and Writing Journey

David Robson shares his journey from obtaining a Mathematics degree at the University of Cambridge to his career in journalism at New Scientist and BBC Future. He discusses his passion for understanding the brain, motivation, decision-making, and improving human interactions. Robson explains that each of his books addresses personal questions and aims to help readers view their lives more objectively by challenging biases and perceptions.

David Robson [05:03]: "All of those processes."

David Robson [07:01]: "We so say with the intelligence trap..."

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3. Overview of Laws of Connection

Laws of Connection focuses on building strong social networks by challenging negative perceptions and enhancing social confidence. Robson explains that the book offers 13 laws backed by scientific research to help individuals form meaningful and authentic bonds.

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4. Key Concepts from Laws of Connection

a. Shared Reality

Robson introduces the concept of a shared reality, where individuals perceive the world similarly on a deep, visceral level. This shared perception fosters a stronger connection between people.

David Robson [21:45]: "Strong sense that we might have that another person is seeing the same world."

b. The Liking Gap

The liking gap refers to the common tendency for individuals to underestimate how much others like them. Robson discusses studies showing that people often believe others like them less than they actually do, creating barriers to forming deeper connections.

David Robson [18:27]: "People always assume that they liked the other person more..."

c. Importance of Compliments

Robson emphasizes the power of genuine compliments in strengthening relationships. He outlines that expressing appreciation binds people together, reinforces the value of relationships, and enhances mutual respect.

David Robson [30:44]: "They definitely don't mind being reminded how great they are."

d. Effective Questioning

The quality of questions significantly impacts the depth of conversations. Robson explains the difference between superficial questions and those that genuinely seek to understand the other person's motivations and feelings, thereby deepening the connection.

David Robson [38:02]: "Get to know the other person more profoundly."

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5. Application in Business Settings

Robson connects his theories to the business environment, illustrating how strong social connections within teams lead to increased productivity, reduced burnout, and lower employee turnover. He provides practical examples, such as synchronized team activities like aerobic exercises, which foster a sense of unity and collaboration.

David Robson [27:28]: "There are lots of good business arguments to be taking notice of this research."

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6. Practical Tips for Building Connections

Throughout the episode, Robson offers actionable advice based on his Laws of Connection. Key takeaways include:

• Be Braver in Making Contact: Don't hesitate to initiate conversations, assuming others like you as much as you like them.

  David Robson [20:36]: "The stats are on our side."

• Express Genuine Interest: Ask meaningful questions that show you are truly interested in understanding the other person.

  David Robson [37:14]: "Probing those kinds of details."

• Give Specific Compliments: Focus on specific behaviors or traits rather than generic praise to make compliments more impactful.

  David Robson [35:47]: "They should be specific."

• Share Enthusiasm: Be open about your excitements and achievements without veering into humble bragging.

  David Robson [40:25]: "We don't have to play modest."

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7. Conclusion and Resources

Melina Palmer wraps up the episode by reiterating the value of Robson's Laws of Connection in enhancing personal and professional relationships. She encourages listeners to access additional resources, including links to Robson's social media profiles and his newsletter, 62nd Psychology on Substack.

Melina Palmer [46:03]: "The Laws of Connection goes beyond just stressing why that's important, but actually has tips for how to do it."

Listeners are invited to explore the show notes for more information and to stay tuned for future episodes aimed at making businesses more brain-friendly through the application of behavioral economics.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• David Robson [16:56]: "The liking gap..."

• David Robson [21:45]: "Strong sense that we might have that another person is seeing the same world."

• David Robson [30:44]: "They definitely don't mind being reminded how great they are."

• David Robson [38:02]: "Get to know the other person more profoundly."

• Melina Palmer [46:03]: "The Laws of Connection goes beyond just stressing why that's important..."

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Resources Mentioned

• David Robson's Books:

  • The Intelligence Trap
  • The Expectation Effect
  • Laws of Connection

• Social Media and Contact:

  • BlueSky: Search for David Robson
  • Instagram: @davidarobson
  • Twitter: @darobson
  • Website: davidrobson.me
  • Newsletter: 62nd Psychology on Substack

• Host’s Profiles:

  • Social Media: @theBrainyBiz
  • LinkedIn: Melina Palmer

Listeners are encouraged to visit thebrainybusiness.com for more episodes, related books, and strategies to make their businesses more effective and brain-friendly.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Have you ever wished you had more influence at work? That people would naturally be more likely to buy in on whatever idea you're selling them, whether they report to you or not? Well, you're in luck. I teach a virtual 10 week class on internal communication and change management through Texas A and M University and it's enrolling now. Get details and enroll@hbl Tamu edu and click on Certificate program. You get to learn directly from me, including live virtual office hours over zoom with a cohort of interested brainy folks like you from around the world. Again, learn more and enroll in the internal communication and change management course at HBL Tamu.

[David Robson]

Edu.

[Melina Palmer]

That's HBL like Human Behavior Lab, TAMU like Texas A and M University.edu and click on Certificate program. Your future self will thank you and.

[David Robson]

When you're ready, enjoy the show.

[Melina Palmer]

Welcome to episode 483 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to David Robson, author of the Laws of Connection. Ready? Let's get started.

[Podcast Intro]

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[David Robson]

Hello.

[Melina Palmer]

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Our lives are full of connections. Family members, friends, co workers, frenemies, besties, and that person you nod to in the hall but don't actually know their name. Some are close, some are acquaintances, but connecting with others is key to being human. We're built on it. There's a reason solitary confinement is a form of punishment. Being a great connector with solid connections to others is key to success in life and business. And thankfully, my guest today, David Robson, has written a new book to help you do just that. David is an award winning science writer specializing in the extremes of the human brain, body and behavior. After graduating with a degree in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge, he worked as a features editor at New Scientist for five years before moving to BBC Future where he was a senior journalist for five years. His writing has also appeared in the Guardian, the Atlantic, Aon, Men's Health and many other outlets. David has received awards from the association of British Science Writers and the UK Medical Journalists association for his writing on misinformation and risk communication during the COVID 19 pandemic. He also won Mental Health Story of the Year at the MJA Annual Awards and was a finalist for the best British Science Journalist of the year award from the absw. Today we touch a bit on David's first two books, the Intelligence Trap and the Expectation Effect, how your mindset can transform your life. But as mentioned, we're focusing most of our conversation on his newest book, the Laws of the Scientific Secrets of building a strong social network, which came out in 2024. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with David and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 483. Now let's jump right in. David Robson, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

[David Robson]

Thanks so much for having me.

Yes, I'm so excited to be talking with you about connecting with people and having better relationships with everyone. For those who don't yet know you.

[Melina Palmer]

Before we jump into the book, can.

[David Robson]

You share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Sure. So I'm an award winning science writer based in London and I've written three books, the Intelligence Trap, the Expectation Effect and most recently the Laws of Connection.

Oh well, I know we're going to talk about the laws of Connection. Can you share a little bit, I guess about this writing journey? As you know, we were talking a little bit about this before we started recording, but we'd love to hear about your process and your other books.

Yeah. So I have a degree from Cambridge University and that was in mathematics, specializing in medical statistics.

And I'd always loved kind of literature, especially popular science, like understanding the brain.

In particular, the, you know, what makes.

Us tick, what makes us motivated, how we make decisions, how we can improve.

All of those processes.

And so when I moved into journalism, it was just a way of combining all of these passions.

And I started out at New Scientist.

Magazine, which is kind of like the British Scientific American. It's aimed at a popular audience, but.

It really does look at science in a very rigorous, accurate kind of way and uses science as a lens to view lots of other cultural phenomena, politics.

All of those things. And then I moved to the BBC before writing the Intelligence Trap, which asked.

Why smart people make stupid decisions. And the kind of serious side of that was asking, well, what kinds of.

Intelligence should we be cultivating?

And the Expectation Effect looked at how we create self fulfilling prophecies in our lives and specifically how our belief can become reality through changes to Our behavior changes to our perception and changes to our physiology.

So things like the placebo effect, but.

Applied across the whole lifespan and not.

Just in the kind of medical setting.

Fascinating. So how would you say, like, so the books, do they in your mind, is there kind of this logical connection that goes through. I learned about the one that unlocked this other thing, or is it more like I went all in on intelligence and now I'm going all in over here and like, let's talk about connection now. Like how did you they seem? I think everything is connected. Right. But like they, they're, they're less connected maybe on the surface than some other books and authors we have on the show.

Yeah, I mean, you know, like scientists.

Often say that research is me search.

So I think that was what drew.

Me to each book was because it.

Was personally very important to me.

I was answering some questions that I.

Wanted to know for personal reasons, to understand myself. But I do think there is this kind of underlying theme toward them and I think that is that I'm really encouraging people to question their perceptions, to correct biases, to kind of look beneath.

The surface and to try to.

Try to view their lives in a way that is maybe a little bit more objective. And you know, we so say with the intelligence trap, I was, you know.

Very much looking at the science of rationality there. You know, how we can become more logical, more rational thinkers, wiser thinkers. But in the expectation effect, I was trying to build this case that often we have an overly negative view of ourselves and the world around us.

And, and that this can kind of.

Manifest in this negative self fulfilling prophecy that's kind of limiting us and preventing.

Us from reaching our potential.

And then with the laws of connection, actually we see something very similar with our relationships with other people and that.

We often have overly negative expectations of.

How people are going to respond to us and our own capacity to build meaningful, authentic bonds.

And by challenging those beliefs, we can.

Create very quick and very profound transformations in our lives. It can. You know, personally for me, researching the last book was the most transformative of all because it really did help me.

To see that there was so much more social connection in my life than I realized. Often it was at arm's length and I just needed to change my own perception. It was like getting a pair of.

A new pair of glasses and seeing.

The world in a new way, seeing my relationships in the new way.

Yeah, I love that. And I know you have reference from Nick Epley and from Vanessa Bonds through the book. They've both Been on the show before and big fan of, of their work as well. So as you, I guess, extend into this piece on, you know, connection, let's talk a little bit about. I don't know if you want to jump right into what some of the laws are or like we said, kind of where you got interested in looking into connection. What's your favorite way to start talking about this book?

Yeah, I mean, I can come at it through a number of angles, I guess.

You know, in my journalism. I had interviewed Nick and Vanessa and.

You know, what was immediately obvious to me was that they really practice what they preach. Like they're such incredibly kind, generous, wise people. And so that made me kind of, you know, sit up and realize that.

You know, this is research that I really want to incorporate into my own life.

It's not something that I just want to write about for, you know, the Guardian or the BB Sim and forget about. Like, I really want to dig deep, find out what their secret is. But, you know, social connection had been something that has always been really important to me.

Like, I consider myself to be a shy extrovert in that I really do.

Get a lot of energy from being around other people. You know, if I'm alone for a.

Few hours even, I kind of feel.

Like my head's going to explode because I need to be not necessarily talking.

To other people, but I need their presence. I need to have some kind of interaction.

But I'm a very shy person and I was even, you know, incredibly shy to the point that it was very.

Debilitating when I was a teenager.

You know, I really struggled even to kind of talk to someone at the.

Shop to buy a cd.

And yet I had very close friends at school.

But it was always like making new connections. That was the big anxiety for me.

And I kind of overcame that, I guess, when I was starting out on my journalism career. It's actually a great form of exposure therapy to have to interview strangers.

And it does teach you very quickly, actually that people are often much nicer.

Than you expect them to be and they'll respond to you much in a.

Much more generous way than you would expect, even if you kind of flap up, even if you say the wrong thing. But yeah, when I came across that research that we spoke about people like Nick and Vanessa and their work, that.

Made me want to revisit this. And I really wanted to write the.

Kind of book that I could have given to my 15 or 16 year old self and just accelerated this process of building social confidence.

And you Know, I learned so much that even though I by that point had considered myself to be, you know, to have kind of built those social.

Muscles, I still found, found out so.

Many surprising things that have changed the way that I react and interact with other people.

Yeah, well. And so like we say with Vanessa, you know, research of having to just go ask people for things, right? To, you know, borrow a. Or, you know, and you expect it's going to be, you know, a thousand people, like no one will ever do this thing. And you realize very quickly that that's wrong. But, you know, so going into journalism, I guess so like I said, you have to just start cold calling people. And I guess how long did it take for you to just, did you just jump in, you adopt a new Persona and say, I'm putting on my journalism person hat and I'm going to use the credence of the organization I'm reaching out on behalf of? Or what was that sort of like?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think having.

The kind of context of journalism, the kind of explanation, the reason, but kind of why you're calling someone definitely helps.

So it was in that way, it was quite a nice kind of playground.

For me to build these social skills.

Because it did feel like quite a.

Safe space in that way. But it was still terrifying the first time I did a telephone interview. But very quickly, actually I got very.

Used to it and all of my friends had known me during my shyest.

Period were super surprised by this. So how have you suddenly been able.

To call these kind of world leading scientists, whether you really strug in the past to talk to like the mailman, but it really chimes.

Then with the research, I discovered for the laws of connection, that actually we.

Can change our social perceptions and build.

Our social confidence very quickly. So there's this lovely research by Gillian Sandstrom and a team of researchers who.

Had asked people, and just regular people, not especially shy, but certainly not especially confident or extrovert, to go on this.

Scavenger hunt, as she called it, where they were just trying to strike up new conversations with different people each day.

And she gave them a list of goals that it could have been talk.

To someone with a cute pet or.

Amazing shoes or funky hair, someone who's an artist but is kind of practicing.

Their craft in public.

But what they found was that people really dreaded making those conversations before the.

Start of the trial.

Like they, you know, they expected those.

Interactions to be very awkward, but by.

You know, just five days later, less than a week later, they were, they.

Had already recalibrated their expectations, so they were already starting to look forward to those conversations rather than dreading them.

And that was certainly my experience, you know, with this journey, that you can.

Very quickly correct some of your shyness.

Just by going out there and practicing.

And the problem is that often we.

We just don't have the opportunity to do it enough. You know, we tend to be quite.

Avoidant of the things that scare us.

And so even though each time we do it, it might be more pleasant than we expect, we forget that fact. And so the next time we do.

It, we're still just as terrified. And I think what was great about Gillian's experience experiment was that by encouraging.

People to do it regularly over that short period, it really reinforces that lesson. And we know that reinforcing these things.

Means that they then linger in the long term.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[David Robson]

And then after you've done it enough times where you were kind of forced because the assignment said you have to do it for five days a month, whatever, that you have to go meet the new people and go strike up the conversation in the same way as it being part of your job, right. As a journalist, being able to say, like, well, I have to, because the assignment says I have to go talk to someone. You can use that kind of excuse. But hopefully, eventually it can become more of a habit as you start to see, okay, it's not as scary as I thought. And there was this value, like I made a new friend or brightened their day or mine or got this new connection or weird good recipe or like, you know, something you're getting the benefits, that then it becomes something that you can just continue to do once you've done it enough to change that expectation.

Yeah, that's exactly it. So there's a kind of twofold problem that we have, which is that we tend to underestimate how pleasurable these exchanges.

Are going to be.

So they often give us this real buzz afterwards. It's an instant mood boost. But we don't tend to recognize that fact. And so by practicing it, you do.

Come to expect the fact that you're.

Going to feel good afterwards.

You're not going to be kind of cringing for the rest of the day.

But also we overestimate how awkward it's going to be. And so with that kind of experiment.

With that kind of process, you just very quickly realize that actually it's not awkward.

The other person, they're going to be.

Pretty pleased to talk to as well.

They're.

You might brighten up their day. At the very least, they're going to be polite to you.

Yeah, well, I really loved. And it's woven throughout the messaging of the whole book. But the. Also this feeling like the other person doesn't want to talk to us. Right. That sort of. There's nothing special about me. If I bring. They're not going to care that I like their hat. Right.

[Melina Palmer]

Like they don't want me to say.

[David Robson]

That to them or they don't, they don't want to hear this. They're going to think it's weird. They don't like me as much as I think they do or should. And I'm always questioning. I know there was a piece about roommates, you know, I'm hoping that you'll bring up as the different, like roommates in college. Right. That you think they don't like you as, as much as they do. But with all of that being an issue, knowing that like scientifically people like to hear about these things. Right. Like, so can you share a little bit about, I guess, that other side of the equation that we tend to underestimate?

Yeah. And that's really important because we often then can get quite good at these short term interactions.

But there is this phenomenon called the liking gap, which means that we do.

Often replay those interactions afterwards and we.

Start to doubt whether the other person really liked us.

So it could be we could have.

Had a pleasant conversation that we found.

Really positive, but we certainly still might.

Not feel that we could take it.

To the next level of friendship because we just don't recognize how much they, you know, how they felt about us. So there were these studies that first of all just looked at strangers who.

Were meeting and talking for five minutes.

In those fairly superficial interactions. And you ask each person afterwards to rate how much they liked the other person and how much they thought the other person liked them.

And you see this liking gap in that people always assume that they liked.

The other person more than the other person liked them. And it's kind of symmetrical in a way because the other person is feeling.

The same thing too.

And you can see instantly how that is a big barrier to connection because if you're both second guessing the other person, neither of you is likely to.

Then want to kind of send that.

Text message to arrange to meet up another time or to build on that kind of nerve of rapport that you've got there. Um, so, you know, reading about the liking gap, I, I immediately thought that there were so many opportunities for forming.

Friendships in the past and I probably.

Just hadn't seen them. They were kind of invisible to me.

And just correcting that one bias, I could have actually made a lot more friends.

You know, people who I really respected and admired. I, you know, sometimes I would even.

Like, turn down an invitation from these.

People because I'd think, well, they're only.

Asking me out of politeness.

But the research suggests they weren't. With these questionnaires, you ask them specifically.

How much did you like that person? How much did you want to spend time with them? How much would you like to be their friend? And we're underestimating all of those different dimensions of friendship. So that's my second law of connection.

Is just to try to be a bit braver about making that next call or just go with the assumption that people probably do like you as much.

As you like them.

And obviously we have to still be.

Sensitive and polite and someone's giving us negative signals to respect that, because this is only averages.

Sometimes people won't have time to be friends of you, or they.

They don't feel that you share enough interest.

But the stats are on our side. That's how I always see the odds are stacked enough favor that in most cases, people probably do want to have.

Some kind of friendship with you.

If you feel that the rapport was there, that the interaction was positive.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and thank you for, you know, transitioning it into the, like you said, the second law of connection. I would guess it's this balance of, like, is it reasonably easy to just give a summary of all of the laws? Or when there are 13, do we get kind of. What's the best way to kind of jump in? Do you want to just share a few or are you able to kind of rattle them off?

Yeah, I mean, I think it might.

Take too long to do each of.

Them justice, but I can certainly talk about some of my favorites.

Good.

And so the first explorer of connection is all about creating a shared reality.

And this is a shared reality is this strong sense that we might have that another person is seeing the same.

World, seeing the world in the same.

Way that we are.

And that's not just about whether they.

Have the same political belief or whether they're in the same demographic group, but it's really much deeper. And that is looking at whether they're visceral reactions to events that are similar to ours. So it could be. There are lots of signs of this just in general conversation. If you find that you're finishing each.

Other'S sentences or saying the same thing, at the same time, or that you laugh at exactly the same jokes. It might be that you're listening to a piece of music and you both get chills at the same point. Those are very profound experiences for us.

Social experiences, because they show us that the other person is fundamentally on the.

Same wavelength as ours.

I was really then kind of gobsmacked.

And delighted to find that there's even.

These studies from neuroscience that show that.

There'S a literal truth in this idea.

Of being on the same wavelength. So you can scan people's brains as.

They watch different videos, like YouTube clips.

Of, like, a documentary, a comedy video, a music video.

And you can predict who's going to be friends with who by the similarities in their brain activity as they watch those clips. Because the more similar their brain activity, the more likely it is that they are having this kind of shared reality when they interact.

Now, you know, the shared reality is.

Sometimes there and sometimes isn't with people. You might just meet someone who is very different from you. They're seeing the world in a very different way.

But there are ways, I think, that we can encourage the formation of this. And sometimes it is just a question.

Of making sure that you. You validate the other person.

So if. If they have said something that you.

Agree with or that you're feeling, just.

Make sure that you actually vocalize that.

That you verbalize it, that you tell them that you did. Often we might just neglect to do.

So, and we're missing a big opportunity there.

And then there are different activities we can do that can engineer a shared reality.

So things like singing together, dancing together, what you can see is that those.

Physical activities, those synchrony of the movement, it actually primes the brain to start acting synchronously as well. Well, and you see as a consequence.

Of that that people do tend to.

Start liking each other more. They start to feel that they have.

This kind of shared identity in some way. And that's, you know, I think that we.

We may be too ready sometimes to see the differences between ourselves and other people.

But often you can find some experiences.

That you will share with that person. And to really focus on that is a good way of building rapport. And then you can talk about your differences, but you've already got this foundation there that.

That shows that you.

You do understand each other or that you're striving to understand each other.

Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a really great segue to kind of bring in the business side of the brainy business. Right? So if we think about being on a team, whether you're, you know, new.

[Melina Palmer]

To a team, you're starting a new.

[David Robson]

Team in an organization, or you're just.

[Melina Palmer]

New into a group and not really.

[David Robson]

Sure kind of where to start, we think of all these things that on the surface you say like, oh, I hate that we have to do the team building exercises or the, you know, trust falls or whatever it happens to be. But to show that, you know, there is value in one, the team liking each other is good for a whole lot of reasons of getting things done and whatnot. But what advice do you have as people are looking at their teams and thinking about something like this?

Yeah, I mean, so first of all.

Having good social connection within teams is incredibly important.

And I think sometimes it is a.

Fact that certain companies ignore.

One of my friends went for an interview at a creative, a literary agency.

And he was told, this is not.

The kind of company where we have water cooler chats. So he ultimately was offered the job that didn't accept it because that's not.

The kind of place you want to work.

And the scientific studies really show us this. You know, people who feel liked and.

Supported by their colleagues are much less likely to suffer from conditions like burnout.

And it's so important for predicting things like employee turnover. The social ties we have really do.

Keep us rooted in a job.

But icebreaking can be a bit cringy, but there's absolutely a role for that. And there are lots of different ways we could do this. But given that, we do know that.

Those kind of synchronous movements are so.

Important for creating that synchronized brain activity.

One German publisher was involved in this.

Study where the employees were just encouraged.

To do this kind of aerobic exercise in the morning, but it was rhythmic movements where everyone was acting in sync.

And what they found was that it did increase the sense of social connection within the company. And as a consequence of that, it then led to kind of less stress.

Fewer employees, sick days, had all of these benefits the business too.

So there's absolutely a good business argument.

To be taking notice of this research and putting it into practice.

Yeah, definitely. So for everyone listening, like, water cooler chat can be a positive thing. We don't need to spend all day over there. Right. But also, you know, where they say people, you know, research people, have a best friend at work, are much less likely to leave, you know, than, than.

[Melina Palmer]

Those who, who don't.

[David Robson]

So like you said, turnover, profitability, and just more efficiently effectively getting things done. And trust, like, so Many good things come from having these positive connections across organizations and creativity.

I mean, what I think was most.

Shocking about that company was that it's a creative agency. And there's so much research showing that.

Creativity arises from the conversations that we.

Have with other people.

You know, they naturally feed us ideas.

Ideas or new perspectives that we could.

Then incorporate into our own work.

They're a source of inspiration.

And if you're just tied to your.

Desk all day and you're not able.

To have both chats, 90% of those.

Chats or 99% might not end up resulting in anything tangible.

But it's still worth it for that.

1% of the time if it gives you that real inspiration that you needed to solve that problem.

Absolutely. And knowing that even if it doesn't have something that you can directly tie and say, oh, this conversation sparked this thing.

[Melina Palmer]

It's all. It's ruminating in there. It's.

[David Robson]

It's doing stuff even if you don't. If you don't consciously realize it.

Yeah, exactly. It's. You know, I think we can, like you said, we can differentiate this from.

That kind of boisterous chat you might.

Have in the office where people.

And not really focusing on my work at all.

But I mean, to try to prevent.

Any kind of conversations.

It's the opposite of what a good workplace should be.

[Melina Palmer]

Yeah, definitely.

[David Robson]

All right, well, thank you for bringing that back over to the business side. What's another of your favorite laws of connection?

Well, we spoke a little bit about.

This with the liking gap and how.

We undo, underestimate how much people appreciate us.

And the consequence of this is that.

We should be telling people how much.

We like them when we see them.

And not only that, but, you know, even when we have an established relationship, you know, working relationship, friendship, romantic relationship, we should be much more expressive about.

What that person means to us.

You know, what we're grateful for, what we admire. There's such good research on compliment giving.

You know, by Nicholas Epley, by Vanessa Bonds, by other people, that shows that.

We tend to be too reluctant to.

Pay out these compliments or to express gratitude. There are lots of reasons for this.

You know, sometimes we just assume the.

Other person kind of knows how great they are, so they don't need to hear it from us.

We think we're going to be a bit cringeworthy when we say it.

Like, we don't have trust in our own social skills to pay an elegant compliment.

But the research shows the other person.

They definitely don't mind being Reminded how great they are.

Even if they do suspect it, hearing it one more time is always a pleasure.

There is a study showing exactly that.

Even over the course of a week, when they ask someone to pay compliments.

To the same person each day for.

A week, the other person receiving the.

Compliments did not get tired from hearing that.

So it cements these relationships. It's pleasurable for the person receiving the.

Compliments, but we actually feel pretty good ourselves when we tell someone how great they are. And there's this theory that paying compliments.

Or expressing gratitude does three things that help to.

What was it?

I can remember two, but not the bird.

Go through them. We get, we say, well, two or three and then you'll get the other one when you read the book.

Right, right, exactly. So the, the two that I can remember are. It binds us to people, it reminds.

Us of who is valuable. And also it reminds other people when they hear us paying compliments, it reminds.

Us them of who's actually appreciating us, who's invested in the relationship.

And then the third one, I can't.

Remember the word attached to it, but what you see is something called the.

Witnessing effect, which is that actually our.

Find bind reminds us to find friendships, binds us to the people when we.

Pay the compliment and it reminds ourselves of who's important and reminds the other.

Person of who is really paying attention to them.

Now the find part I find fascinating.

Because what you see is that if I pay you a compliment, Melina, what.

You would find is that even other.

People who are not directly complimented, they.

Will like both of us more for the fact that we had that interaction.

It will draw attention to them, all.

Of your brilliant qualities and it will.

Show that I'm the kind of person.

Who, who is appreciative and is a.

Good connection to have. So you're actually much more likely to.

Make new friends by complimenting one of your old friends in their presence.

And that's something that we might avoid in business settings, I guess because you might worry that the other employees are going to get jealous if you compliment one employee on their work and you don't compliment everyone virtually. The research suggests we're not really that thin skinned. We get so jealous over something so small. It's just, it creates a really good working culture if you can express yourselves freely to show your gratitude and what.

You respect in other people.

What I like about that too is it allows for. I really like any opportunity in business, just in life, whatever, where you can have some sort of a process or a mental checklist of something, but it can feel spontaneous and surprising to other people, and it should be right. But it's not like I'm gonna compliment, you know, David on his shoes today, regardless of what they are. Like, that's not right. But if you say, like, you know, I say one. I'm gonna say one nice thing about, you know, each. Each employee on a. You know, you say it's like weekly basis or whatever, but if you know that you're on the lookout. I'm gonna be paying attention to what David is doing this week. Week. And when I see something, I'm going to make sure to mention it. And I only have to do one. It's so I don't have to be, like, really way above and beyond. And, you know, maybe other people are around, maybe they're not. But I know next week I'm going to be on the lookout for Emily and what she's doing. And. But, you know, you.

[Melina Palmer]

Then again, it kind of builds that habit.

[David Robson]

But as long as you don't say, I only ever compliment David and I.

Ignore everyone, that is the problem.

Yeah.

And also, like you said, I think.

One of the barriers to paying compliments is that we're worried about.

It seeming artificial. You know, it's a bit like that.

Character Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice, who. He's rehearsed these terrible, excruciating compliments that.

Don'T really bear much relation to the real world.

And everyone can see that.

And it just. What that does make you look is kind of unctuous.

It raises these fears that you're just manipulative.

But the truth is that most people aren't doing that. We actually have a lot of spontaneous, generous thoughts that arise to us all the time. And we bite those down because we.

Don'T want to appear like Mr. Collins.

But actually, if they are arising in.

The moment, totally naturally, we should be.

Saying them because the other person will appreciate us.

All that.

And there are a couple of kind of good rules to follow when you're paying compliments. And they should be realistic.

So don't try to kind of make up something that you think the other person wants to hear but you don't believe it's true.

And they should be specific. So really try to look at what it was about the other person, what even, like, one behavior demonstrated, not just.

In itself, but about the person's character as a whole. Those kinds of compliments are much more effective.

So, you know, I might thank you for helping me with, you know, get out of this kind of dead end with my project. Well, you know, just saying that I appreciate the hard work you put in is one thing, but if I also then say, well, you know, that was.

A really creative solution and I really appreciate how you're always there for, for.

Me when I have these kinds of.

Problems, like making it clear that you see the person behind the action, that's.

A lot more effective.

Well, that reminded me of the. I love talking about questions.

[Melina Palmer]

Questions are one of my very favorite things.

[David Robson]

And in the book, you talk about, you know, six different types of questions. And when we, you know, it was like watching speed daters and things, if they asked questions, you're more likely to get another date or, and we like people, people that ask questions, but not every type of question has the same value. Can you share a little bit about questions?

Right.

So I guess if we go back.

To that idea of shared reality, you.

Know, our conversations should be trying to dig beneath the surface to identify, to.

Get to know the other person more profoundly, you know, what is happening in.

Their mental universe rather than just, you know, the kind of vague details of like the where for all, where they live, you know, like, so you, you want your questions to be specific and to demonstrate to the other person that you're, you're trying to do that work to get to know them at this deeper level. Now, a lot of people, when they ask questions, they just stay at them, like very superficial. So it will just be like, how are you? You know, what did you do today? Which are fine to kind of warm up, but if you leave it at.

That, you're not really showing much attention.

So what does seem to shift the.

Tone of the conversation and really have.

A big effect on things like if someone is invited for a second date during speed dating is whether you ask follow up questions.

So you've heard what the other person.

Said, you're curious to know more, and then you ask something specific that will.

Allow them to expand on that.

And again, I think this should arise spontaneously. We can build a habit that will arise more spontaneously.

But I do know some people who.

Ask a lot of questions, but the questions for some reason always seem to be missing the point of what I'm trying to say. So it's almost like they have built.

This kind of rule as if it's like a algorithm, but they're not really.

Thinking, I want to understand that person. They often it would be focused on.

A very small, what I consider to be like a very irrelevant detail.

RALPH and getting like, you know, I might Say, like, about a work project.

I'm talking about, and they would ask me something about, like, the deadline.

But what's really important for me is.

Like, why am I passionate about that? Like, what is interesting about it?

How is it going to change my.

Life knowing this new stuff?

And so that's what we should be doing with our question questions, really. It's probing those kinds of details, like.

Working out what's animating the other person.

Why something mattered personally. The kinds of questions that are especially bad, though, this term called boomerasking, which.

Alison Woodbrooks came up with, and it's.

Like a boomerang where you ask a question just so that it will come.

Back around to you.

So you might say, how, hey, Melina, how's work going? And you might, you know, say one.

Sentence and then you're like, well, anyway, my day was just amazing, or my day was terrible. I had such a crisis.

But you, you haven't shown any actual.

Interest in the other person.

It was just an excuse to be.

Able to talk about yourself.

And it's the least flattering thing to hear.

Yes, definitely don't want those. And they're more transparent than you think they'll be if you throw those out there. Right. And, yeah, like, well, let me tell you, that's great. But back to me, I think it.

Could be much better to just say, you'll never guess what. I was given a bonus today or I met this really cool person.

Because actually, that's another rule of connection.

Is that we should be more open.

About the things that excite us.

We don't have to play modest.

And people respond, well, if you're enthusiastic.

About something and you just go out and say it, people feel happy with you. It's this emotion called confelicity, which is like the vicarious joy you get at someone else's happiness.

So we don't have to try these manipulative techniques like Boomer asking to try.

To kind of draw a veil over them or to pretend that, you know.

We didn't want to talk about them.

In the first place.

We can just go ahead and say.

It openly, provided then that we do.

Genuinely show interest in the other person as well when they have something similar that they want to share with us.

Yeah, I really appreciated the section in the book where you talk about that. You talk about humble bragging, right? And like, we all like. It's. It's so clear and obvious and when. And the references to the different research for social media influencers and things where we all kind of it's a, you know, the whole world is rolling their eyes, those sorts of moments. And so it's not. But you can avoid the humble brag by just actually, like you said, being excited. And if you reach out to the person and say, this amazing thing happened and I, for some reason I wanted to talk to you about it, like, I knew you would get it and I was excited and I thought you would be too.

[Melina Palmer]

And yeah, hey, what's up with you? Right?

[David Robson]

Like you wanted to share. They can be excited and they feel good about it. I really appreciated too that in the book you talk about how, like, we feel like the someone's not going to want to hear it, all of what we've been talking about already or feels like I'm trying to rub it in, I'm just trying to brag, whatever. But actually where if that person finds out that you didn't tell them and you told another friend, they may feel like they thought something about me, it can make them feel bad that you didn't bring it up.

Right. It's actually very insulting.

And I've had personal experience with this when, like, one of my friends, we were at university, she had got this.

Amazing job offer and she only told.

Half of her friends and I was on the other half of people, obviously I found out straight away from the.

Other friends who'd already heard.

And it just left me feeling like, what was it that she thought?

Why does she think I can't deal with this news?

I'm just pleased for her. I don't need to have it hidden from me. And the research really bears that out. I mean, it does show. It's just false modesty just never really works. It's never a good idea. We can brag quite openly if we're genuinely excited, just as long as what we say is, first of all, it.

Has to be accurate.

Game lying in any case, or any form of deception is always going to be alienating. And we can, it often can help if we do talk a little about.

The challenges that we face.

So this isn't kind of humble bragging where we're pretending something great is actually terrible, but it's more just one where we're open about the fact that we.

Might have got this amazing job now, but we had quite a few rejections beforehand, or that the interview was really.

Tough, it was quite grueling, but we still managed to get the job because.

That helps people to understand the whole narrative behind it. It actually helps them to understand why you're both sided like why it means so much to you.

Whereas I think if we, as we.

Often do on social media, we only.

Talk about the good things without ever.

Sharing the bad things. It's giving a very one sided view.

And on an individual basis, you know.

Occasion by occasion, it might not be such a problem.

But I think, you know, over multiple.

Interactions then that can make you seem.

Like someone who maybe is a bit self absorbed and, you know, full of.

Themselves or overly proud.

Yeah, definitely. And this is just one of so many amazing pieces of advice throughout the book. I truly enjoyed it. Like we said, there are 13 laws of connection, right so and so much amazing research to back it up and really great stories like we heard today. So of course there will be a link in the show notes for everyone to go get their copy of Laws of Connection. For everyone though, that's looking to, you know, learn more and connect and follow you and all the things you know, what's their best path to do? So.

So I'm now on Blue sky, so.

You'Ll find me if you search for.

My name, I think, but it's David.

A. Robson@blueSky Social or you know, whatever.

I find. The avatar name was a little overly.

Complicated, but yeah, you should be able.

To find me by that. And my Instagram account is the same, so davidarobson. And I'm still on Twitter darobson. My website is davidrobson Me where I, you know, give some updates and you can find my portfolio and I've also.

Got a, a newsletter if you search for the 62nd psychology substack.

I just started that in 2025 and.

I'm really excited about it actually because I often come across so many good.

Studies that I want to share and.

This is a way for me to.

Just give very brief summaries of the.

Things that are really exciting me.

Oh, awesome. I love that. Well, we'll definitely have, like I said, links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone and just thank you again, David for joining me today. I really enjoyed the book and loved.

[Melina Palmer]

Sitting down to chat with you about it.

[David Robson]

Thank you. Me too. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to David Robson for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really appreciate that David has put together some consistent laws people can use to enhance their connections. Whether we're shy or confident, introverted or extroverted, we can all build deeper relationships. The Laws of Connection goes beyond just stressing why that's important, but actually has tips for how to do it, which is so great. You don't have to do all of them, of course, and definitely not all at once. You can just pick one thing to start with and focus on. Maybe you want to be more open about your vulnerabilities, or to start trusting that others will like you as much as you like them, or to offer emotional support to those in need, or to check your assumptions, or to be more consistent in your treatment of others. There are so many great ways to enhance your relationships and connect more, and they're of course all outlined for you in the Laws of Connection. Which will you choose? Come share it with us on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. And there are links to David's profile in the show Notes as well. To make it easy, you'll also find links to my top related past episodes and books, including the Laws of Connection and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 483. And thank you again to David Robson for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

[David Robson]

It's going to be a lot of fun.

[Melina Palmer]

You don't want to miss it. Until until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

[Podcast Intro]

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.