← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
485. The Social Art of Influence
00:46:00
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Mikael Klintman, author of the insightful new book, Framing: The Social Art of Influence. Their conversation delves into the powerful concept of framing and how it shapes our...
Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:01]
Melina Palmer
Have you ever wished you had more influence at work? That people would naturally be more likely.
- [00:06]
Mikhail Klintman
To buy in on whatever idea you're selling them, whether they report to you or not?
- [00:11]
Melina Palmer
Well, you're in luck.
- [00:12]
Mikhail Klintman
I teach a virtual 10 week class.
- [00:15]
Melina Palmer
On internal communication and Change Management through Texas A and M University and it's enrolling now.
- [00:22]
Mikhail Klintman
Get details and enroll at HBL Tamu.
- [00:27]
Melina Palmer
Edu and click on Certificate Program.
- [00:31]
Mikhail Klintman
You get to learn directly from me.
- [00:33]
Melina Palmer
Including live virtual office hours over zoom with a cohort of interested brainy folks.
- [00:39]
Mikhail Klintman
Like you from around the world.
- [00:41]
Melina Palmer
Again, learn more and enroll in the.
- [00:44]
Mikhail Klintman
Internal communication and change management course at HBL TAMU. EDU. That's HBL like Human Behavior Lab, dot.
- [00:55]
Melina Palmer
TAMU like Texas A&M University. EDU and click on Certificate program.
- [01:02]
Mikhail Klintman
Your future self will thank you and when you're ready, enjoy the show.
- [01:08]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 485 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Mikhail Klintman, author of the new book Framing. Ready? Let's get started.
- [01:28]
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [01:44]
Hello.
- [01:44]
Mikhail Klintman
Hello everyone.
- [01:45]
Melina Palmer
My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. If you've been a fan of the Brainy Business for a while, you know that I love framing. It is one of my favorite topics and concepts for people to start using to apply behavioral economics into their work. There are a few reasons for this. For one, it's because it's so useful. Everything can be reframed in countless ways and it can drastically change how someone feels about what was communicated and the actions they take or don't. Also, we're constantly changing the frames on things even if we don't realize it. So it's a skill skill that can be reasonably easy to start to master since you're naturally doing it at least a little bit throughout your life. So when I got a pitch about a book called Framing the Social Art of Influence, I knew instantly that the author had to come and join me on the show. And so in today's conversation, I am joined by Mikhail Klintman. Mikhail is a professor of Sociology at the University of Lund and a former Wallenberg Fellow of Environment and Sustainability at mit. He is the author of several books and his work has been featured in the Times, the Times Literary supplement and on BBC Radio 4's Thinking Allowed. Our conversation today is of course centered on framing and the four ways he has categorized it to help you consider frames around the key elements of texture, temperature, position and size. Really quickly before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Mikhail and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 485 now let's jump right in. Dr. Mikhail Klintman, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [03:48]
Thank you so much, Melina. So glad that you invited me here.
- [03:52]
Mikhail Klintman
Oh, of course, yeah. Well, I am delighted. I know I love framing and so excited to be able to talk with someone, you know, essentially just about that is like a dream. But you know, for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [04:08]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, sure. So I'm Mikael. I'm a professor of sociology at Lund University in the southern Sweden. It's a small University town there, 45 minutes train to over to Copenhagen in Denmark. And I'm a writer and teacher and speaker. And before I prepare for this discussion, I'm thinking what's really my focus? What has been my red thread? And it seems that I've always had a deep focus on the various in between positions that people in groups find themselves in. Maybe it comes from my childhood. If we're getting Freudian about it, from being a middle child, I've always been there in the middle. But the middle also means in between. And over time I've realized that this is where the most interesting things happen actually, whether in consumer behavior or cultural exchange or interdisciplinary collaborations or social change and so on. So one in between or hybrid position I'm especially interested in, that's our role as citizen consumers also mainly regarding sustainable consumption and so on. We're not just customers chasing quality and price. We also weigh in ethics and sustainability and national loyalty perhaps and personal values and so on. So I've done a lot about that and why we boycott. Yeah, that's actually a word, boycott some things, you know, where we actively choose them before because we like where they have been produced or how they've been produced or how we boycott other things. And when I started my research and sustainable consumption and with focus on citizen consumers, it actually wasn't. Yeah, it was an accident. I was a student and I was gonna in the evening I was gonna buy some washing detergent for my clothes and it was all empty where the ordinary, this was in the mid-90s. So the ordinary detergents were quite, quite bad. I mean strong chemicals and so on but they were, they were out of them. So there were only the eco friendly detergent left there and okay, I hesitantly, I picked it and was twice as expensive and I thought well maybe, maybe that's great. So I went home and started to wash and there was a strange almost it really smelled like weird chemicals although I knew it was much more environmentally friendly. And the clothes I, I hang them to dry and they were all stiff. I had to almost like you when you bake knead my, my white tube socks that you had in the 90s and and they hadn't become much less grayish than before the wash so bad smell real stiff, didn't do it job its job and twice as expensive. And that really made me think wow, this is fascinating stuff. Is it? And as a sociologist later I've been thinking is it how, how could this be that they could sell this for, for the twice that price. Is it despite all these flaws. But maybe it's because of all these flaws because it's also a social statement that I'm willing to sacrifice this and I'm willing to pay extra. There's some kind of show off in that. So that's some fascinating stuff, I think. And I spent some years abroad too. Two years at MIT and one at UC Berkeley and one in Oxford and one year at the London School of Economics. And when you are working on sustainable consumption issues, you are forced, even if you aren't interested in it, to collaborate with religious scholars, philosophers, chemists, physicists and so on. So it's also, you end up running between groups and so on. And I've always found that really fascinating.
- [08:52]
Mikhail Klintman
Oh yeah, definitely. And it was reminding me as you were talking about that of, you know, there's a case study of kind of why Prius won and you know, in that case because you know, I think, you know, Honda, you know, is trying to make it look like their eco friendly car look like all their other cars and just make this one change but by making it ugly essentially and this thing it becomes the statement of like I am like you're showing off but you don't have to talk about it with everyone because it just sort of is seen. And so the way that that then you know has like you said that that statement that you're making in that way the, the by cot which actually you know, I haven't heard that term before, so thank you for bringing that.
- [09:45]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, so that's. Yeah, it's quite useful. We often do that. Maybe we don't think so much about boycotting as when we boycott something, but we keep doing it all the time.
- [10:02]
Mikhail Klintman
Yeah, I love that. I'm going to be looking into it more for sure as far as. And I think it is a very interesting question for the behavioral science aspect of where like you're saying there a boycott is a very conscious type of a decision that you're going to make. Right. There it is. Probably there's some herding in there and group think and things that come into play. Perhaps. But yeah, how that BICOT can be kind of more, you know, subconscious type of processing is. Yeah, it's really interesting. So I'm going to be looking into that. Thank you for introducing it.
- [10:37]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. I can just mention the research area or the also theories and so on around boycott and boycott. It's often called political consumption and that means, you know, that you, you take political aspects into account. It could be that you want to support your local community or you don't want to support a certain energy source or what have you. So. So political consumerism or political consumption is there? Yeah, yeah.
- [11:07]
Mikhail Klintman
Awesome. Perfect. Well, I know I'll look into it. I'm sure audience members will be as well. As I said a little bit, you know, leading into the conversation. I love framing and everybody who's been listening for a while knows it's one of my favorite concepts and it's something that I recommend to people as a place to start at least in applying behavioral economics. Because it's so easy to just think, think about a different frame. Right. To say something a little bit differently. I use examples of like the subject line in your email or whether you end on a statement or a question or you know, all these different things that you can be doing just to.
- [11:45]
Melina Palmer
To try.
- [11:45]
Mikhail Klintman
Right. And it's a pretty. It can be very low stakes when you want it to be. There are of course high stakes versions that come up with framing but. And you talked a little bit about what got you interested in that.
- [11:57]
Melina Palmer
But you know, why do you think.
- [11:58]
Mikhail Klintman
It'S important for people to be more thoughtful about the frames that they use?
- [12:05]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. So it really impacts our life scores. Do you say that scores of times per day without us thinking about it. And there is also something almost magical to it, a social magic, if I want to sound dramatic. But in the book I have structured the chapters to sound a little bit like that you can make bad seem good and you can make good seem bad by reframing it. And you can also make hot what's not. I'm mentioning things that might not be interesting to consumers or they don't want care so much about it. So if you reframe them a little bit, the setting or the formulations, it can really make a change. And another magical thing is that you can make meanings move. And one example, maybe I should bring that up already is they have looked at young, yeah, teenage guys and I've been one like that myself and I used to eat a lot of fast food and junk food and so on and I guess they still do. And this is, and you know, health scientists and so have been thinking what could we do about this? So they have compared what happens if we give them even more and better health information compared to if we reframe it into something else. How does that change the motivation to change from fast food and to healthier food? So one group of the guys got the information. Well, the researchers told them that, well, you probably know that this is not very healthy, but do you know that already now when you're 16 years old you start to clog your veins with, with this fatty and sugary food and so on. So it's really going to have long term effect for you. Maybe you will die a few years earlier or so. I don't know if they said that, but they implied it at least. And the guy said oh that's a shame, that's too bad, but it tastes so good. But then they reframed the issue to similar groups of guys and said, do you know that the fast food industry, they have employed the most clever and well paid psychologist to manipulate you through advertising and other sneaky ways so that you're not really aware of, it's often at the subconscious level and so on. So and that manipulates you into eating more fast food than you otherwise would. And do you know that the industries also have this lobbying towards policymakers so they don't regulate these foods and so on. And that really triggered the hunter gatherer brains of the guys. And that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Imagine when we were hunter gatherers, it wasn't as if we think oh should I eat this or that, if I eat that I will turn 87 years old and this I will live a few years younger. People lived until they were 30 perhaps. And the most important thing was not being deceived by other groups because that would really, then you would, you know, die unnatural Death and so on. So to keep watching for these, if we are someone is dishonest and trying to deceive us runs much deeper in us and it's more motivating. That's just an example. So there's something to that magic. But I also find it fascinating because it's tempting, of course, when you write a book about framing to keep saying, oh, this is magical. And you have these one phrase you can say, and people just act differently. It's not really the case. It's often more complicated than that that I write about in the book. But there are also limits to framing. You cannot frame everything in any way. Yeah, there are some limitations and they often are often tied to our evolutionary past. There actually are genetic preparedness for various things. I often take an example of that frames you mentioned that frames are often implicit and that's true in almost every social setting. But can you imagine if you're invited to your mother in law and family for a Sunday supper, a nice meal and you're having a great meal and having a good time and you think you're a conscientious person in law. This must be terribly expensive. I must pay for my meal to my mother in law. That would become, of course, extremely awkward. But why is that? Well, that's because then I mess up the frame that my mother in law thought we had agreed on, namely the family principle. We support each other, we have a special loyalty, we don't have to pay the way we do in this, the store and so on. So that really makes her feel, well, is Mikael, doesn't he feel that he even belongs to the family? Can we trust him? Or so on. But if I had said, told her, oh, wonderful meal, I hope it's okay that we invite you to your home in a couple of weeks, then she would be happy and so on. So there are lots of limits to framings that can become quite comical, but also tragic if you do it really badly.
- [18:47]
Mikhail Klintman
Right. Well, and I think that's such a good point too. Just tying back to that, you know, feeling like you're being deceived or whatnot. And knowing that so innate within us that if you try to push it too far, people will pick up on it and they will be mad and they will not like it because they don't want to be manipulated. Right. And so that's why always sticking with be, you know, be honest, don't try to push things too far as you go through any of these. I was also thinking of an example while you were Sharing there about, you know, with potentially it was because of, you know, young, younger men or whatnot. But like in Covid, when trying to encourage people to get vaccines and especially like here in the US where, you know, when the message was about you need to protect yourself because you don't want this to happen to you. And especially where it was, you know, military background or other sort of, you know, bravado, perhaps more specific type, people didn't like that it wasn't compelling to them because they didn't want to think of themselves as being weak or being susceptible to anything. But when the messaging was reframed to be about protecting others, like, and especially when it was for, you know, military people in military service, police, right, to say, like, you're here, you know, protect and serve, like that's what you're about. And this is one way to be able to do that, to protect others. You know, they were much more likely to get a vaccine when it was framed in that way. And that is to your point, that is one of many reasons to do it.
- [20:23]
Melina Palmer
Right.
- [20:23]
Mikhail Klintman
They can also be protecting themselves. But if that's not the thing that's going to move the lever, move the needle and get them to take action, you can look and focus on a different aspect. You don't have to talk about one, you don't have to talk about every possible benefit, you know, or you know, pro and con. Um, but you can be thoughtful to what you want people to do, what they're doing now, what's going to motivate them and what are the truthful things that you're able to make salient to help nudge that behavior based on the frame. And it's not like we say, manipulating and forcing someone to do something they wouldn't have already been doing. They still have free choice. But that's kind of at least is how I think about framing. That's how I kind of define it. Do you, and I think I know you have a different definition, but how would you go about defining framing for everyone?
- [21:15]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, I totally agree. And actually, one of the reasons I became interested in writing this book is that before this book, I wrote a book on knowledge resistance. It's basically like fact resistance. Why do we avoid certain facts and, you know, subscribe to others that are not really convincing? And I think the public debate about, you know, with this disinformation and those things, it's very focused in a binary way. So are we being told the truth or the falsehood? False things and so on. And that's Extremely important. Of course, we need all the fact checking and so on. But a lot of studies have shown too. I think it's for instance, Hugo Mercier. Mercier who has studied gullibility and see that people are really not very gullible, not when it comes to really important things for their lives at least. But what we are, we are very susceptible to frames and how very influenced by how they look. And for instance, what you mentioned there, by expanding the frame from just the individual, is something that I think in marketing is also something that is really powerful, makes us feel as consumers like we're not just focusing on our own egos and ourselves, that we're doing something broader. But how I define framing, it's a bit of a mouthful or whatever you call it, so I should read it here. My definition is that framing is the process of selecting, shaping and organizing reality into a bounded construction that affects perception and action. And what's key here, I think, is that what is key here, it can be both automatic and take place without us thinking about it. It can be a quiet, tacit thing. It doesn't require language very often. It doesn't because we are so socially susceptible and can read the room and so on. So we can see what's expected. And we're also extremely sensitive to what the social norms around us too. So it's not just words and formulations. It can also be something quiet and it can also be physical. Physical structure. I bring up the example from Amsterdam where they used to have very high, I mean, lots of traffic accidents with cars and bikes in downtown Amsterdam. And a lot of children were in those accidents and really awful numbers there every year in the seventies and so on. And after a while the. Some parents had enough so they started reframing the whole street actually. They started to paint part of the road with white paint and where they rode, you know, childish bicycles so that everyone could see that this is for bikes and no cars are allowed there and. And so on. And that really had an impact combined with verbal framing as well. So yeah, so selecting, shaping and organizing reality into a bounded construction, it's not just that it affects others, it also affects ourselves. When we frame something, we are often. That's how we think, think about it ourselves.
- [25:38]
Mikhail Klintman
Yeah, definitely in the way that you can, you know, frame even self talk. I've talked about that on the show. So if we say I, I don't drink soda or I don't skip workouts versus oh, I can't. Right. It feels so different. Just that very simple that's from Vanessa Patrick and great research that she and others have done that simple reframe can be so impactful on whether or not you stick to a diet and exercise program or not. And it's just not even a full word. Right. It's just a couple letters. Different. But it feels so different for us. I also think it's really important for people to realize that there is a part of. I know you talk about in the book about it being both. It's either spontaneous or sometimes strategic. Right. So knowing we are framing all the time, whether we, you know, consciously sit and debate about it or not, the way you're going to present information, there's a frame on it, and if you don't think about it, it might be the wrong one. So I always encourage to think about this more. Obviously you can't think about every frame for everything ever, because we'd never get anything done. But a little bit more thoughtfulness is. Is good on that. So as people look to do that. I know you have four categories of framing. You've shared a little bit about them, but can you get a little bit more in depth about texturing, heating, positioning, and sizing?
- [27:00]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. So those are the. Sure. These are the four types of framing that I developed in the book. And I could say the way they have emerged has been both from my own research in sustainable consumption and disputes of various kinds and of course, the whole literature on food framing, from neuroscience into cultural studies. But most excitingly, perhaps, I went into a real framer, a physical framer for paintings, and asked him, well, I have a question here. What can you do? How can you change a frame? And he starts saying, well, you can do this with a texture. You can make it rough and you can heat it up and then you can adjust it and so on. So it was partly from that too. So. Which I found fun. A fun way as social scientists to do so. First. Texturing is. I call that the most primitive type of framing. It's between. You can make a frame smooth and friendly and safe and nice in various ways, and then you can make it rough and a bit aggressive and uncertain and dangerous and so on. And since this is behavioral. People are interested in behavioral economics here. It makes at least me think about Daniel Kahneman's idea of thinking fast. You know, that the past decisions you. You need to. To make. And so, so. But that can go both ways in. In marketing. So I've seen since I've four teenage boys. Yeah. Or three. No one. One is over 20. Suddenly they come Home with extremely ugly shoes. And. And they walk so. Are so proud about them. They really suck. They look awful. We're very honest in our family. They are even more rude to me about that. Well, this is fashion. This is ugly fashion or whatever. So just because it was framed as some fashion, that they are admired for that. And so it's often, you know, making bad seem good, and often in marketing that can be quite fun. I don't know the series Borat, where he's at Kazakhstan or studies. He doesn't say, mocks Kazakhstan and makes fun of it and presents it as caricature, as the worst. All the worst things in the world are there. And then when he says something really sexist, racist, all combined, he says it's very nice when he does that. And of course, people in Kazakhstan, first, they were upset and sad about it, and I thought it was kind of insensitive and so on, in a way. But now I've seen in tourist information from Kazakhstan and as long, you know, from video and so on, they end their presentations of this beautiful landscape with very nice. They do the same thing, and they have turned into something positive, but there is still this little voice that makes it a bit rough and very interesting and adventurous to go there. So I think they're doing really well in terms of. Of tourism and so on. So that's texturing. And then we have heating, where you adjust the intensity of a frame to create urgency and also activity, make people active and not just think and feel things. So, for instance, we have. There is still a huge problem, environmental problem, with plastic straws, of course. And they used to show all these heartbreaking films of birds and fish and turtles who, you know, swallow that and all the awful things. But it was some behavioral scientists, they were a bit fascinated that. Fascinated. They were saddened that people continued to use the plastic straws until. I think this was at least one milestone. And that was when Kim Kardashian came in and said, well, you know, from now on, I'm going to skip the plastic straws when I drink my cocktails and so on. And of course, you can make fun of that. Oh, what a luxury life. And wow, what a sacrifice for her and so on. But can you imagine what she has done for the environment and for the animals? Because millions and millions of plastic straws have been replaced with paper straws or no straws at all, and so on. So she managed to heat up the frame into something people cared about, even though it's irrelevant that it's, you know, socialite who happens to do this, she's no expert of any kind, but it still influences. So I think that's kind of cool. And then we have positioning. And I've already mentioned that how you can shift the meaning of an issue. If you are to eat healthy or quit eating fast food, is it due to health or is it because you don't want to be deceived? That's two different framings. You can shift that position. And I also think when we talk so much, when many producers or in marketing, oh, we need to. This product is so good for the environment. And I don't think that really works anymore. Maybe it did in the beginning. I think there are many more powerful framings of elegance and sophistication and simplicity and the absence of vulgarity and so on, of the ecologically friendly product or something that would work better. And finally we have the sizing where you can expand and contract. And that's. You already mentioned how you can broaden in marketing so that people don't feel that they are just acting as, as egoists or focused on themselves. And one example, my very favorite. What do you call it? Ad. All. All categories. That's from Patek Philippe. Do you know Patek Philippe? Yeah, the. It's amazing luxury watches. I love watches. I don't. Can't afford them, but I would like. And they have, they have this. I'm sure many of the listeners have seen it, that you don't, you don't really own a Patek Philippe watch. You only look after it for the next generation. And then you often see a man in his 40s or 50s and his teenage boy there. And so, so that broadens. Instead of men feeling like, oh, how can. I can't focus so much on myself and my ego and just to show off that I've been successful buying this watch. But if you make people feel that, well, this is a family tradition, we're thinking long term, you know, about something, you know, keeping the family together and so on. That's it. I think that's really powerful.
- [35:33]
Mikhail Klintman
Yeah, I love that example. And they're all great examples, of course, and potentially, you know, recency bias. I'm going to talk about these thoughts all the way through, but we'll talk about this one because it's right here. But that idea too, as far as the investment today and how it reframes the idea of a very expensive watch, both for that legacy. Right. So there is some ego in there, even if no one doesn't want to admit it. Right. It's like the excuse to get the thing right. Yeah, it, it shows that it reframes the investment instead of saying, wow, that's just really expensive. Is it worth doing to be thinking about how this is like when you think about spreading out this purchase for multiple generations each, even if I'm spending these many, many, many, many, many thousands of dollars on this thing now. But when you think about that over, you know, a hundred years and, you know, my grandkid will wear this, you know, and remember me and whatnot, then it's affordable. When you stretch it out over a long period of time. Louis Vuitton does some similar messaging with their work. And also that protective nature of you're just looking after it for the next generation and helping you. You're going to be just. This is a prized possession and something to be really thoughtful about when you're going to wear it. It's very special and important. You're. You're kind with it maybe more than other things that you have. That is so much that's really packed into that one sentence. Right. Of the framing of what it's about. And it's so different from just like another watch.
- [37:18]
Melina Palmer
Right.
- [37:21]
Mikhail Klintman
And most of these people, even if you have a Patek Philippe, it's probably not the only watch that you own.
- [37:27]
Melina Palmer
And I guess not.
- [37:29]
Mikhail Klintman
Right. But you just, it feels different with it, which is a really cool and impressive way of framing and showing. I'm, you know, it feels so easy on this side of any marketing or advertising statement to say, of course. Right. But then we go to think about applying that to our own work, you know, on the front side, before you come up with it. There's a lot of work and time and thoughtfulness. Anyone who's ever worked in advertising knows that. But it's worth investing in and investigating all those possible frames and thinking about all those different behavioral elements and how they come in before you land on a specific frame like that, whether it's an advertising slogan, you know, or internal communication, messaging or anything else. So. Yeah.
- [38:20]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. Fully agree.
- [38:21]
Perfect.
- [38:22]
Yeah.
- [38:23]
Mikhail Klintman
Well, as we, you know, kind of go to close out, you know, our conversation here, is there anything else that you would like for people to know about framing and why, you know, for you, it was important enough to write a whole book about framing. Right. And dedicate so much of your life to, you know, what. What should people be thinking about most when it comes to framing?
- [38:47]
Melina Palmer
Well, I think it is. Let's see here. There is so much. I think one thing you mentioned was that to be Thoughtful about what framing is this? If you're in a social situation or you're at a meeting or with some friends or something, just to. To think what are the frame or the expectations and the norms here? And are they really good? Are they optimal? Maybe they should be changed. It seems like there are only a few people who are expected to speak, whereas others are supposed to just listen and cannot give input and so on. So there is kind of a democratic aspect here as well in becoming aware of. Of frames. And frames can be. It's like electricity. You can use it for light bulbs in kindergarten. I mean, who can be against that to some really lethal weapons and what have you? So it's amoral in itself. So it can be used for really deceiving people and groups and in horrible ways and sneaky ways and also really for good purposes. And I think with the book, I really hope that people will learn some of these techniques in order to have better control over the situations they find themselves in, various social situations. But also if you have something good going on, you are working towards a good cause to be a bit sneaky and find some tools to get others on board there. I think that's a really useful thing that people can do better if we learn more about framing this social art that it is.
- [41:05]
Mikhail Klintman
Oh, definitely. I am reminded from what you're saying here of. So I have a. Recently also interviewed Nalanjana Dasgupta about her new book and apologies to her if she hears it. And I mispronounced as I go from memory here. She goes by Buju, which is much easier to say, but her book is called Change the Wallpaper and definitely talks about these different types of wallpaper around us in these social situations and where if you see, you know, the actual, you know, pictures that are hanging on the wall or the physical kind of framing of, you know, top management is up here and everybody else is below on a lower floor and all of these different aspects. So that is in that kind of way of physical framing. So her episode is coming out similar timeline to when this one comes out. I'm not sure off the top of my head which one comes first, but for everybody listening, knowing that these two kind of go together in that way, and I think for you, if you don't yet know her, I think you two would have a lot to do.
- [42:08]
Melina Palmer
I really want to read that book.
- [42:10]
Mikhail Klintman
Perfect.
- [42:11]
Melina Palmer
Okay. Wallpaper. That's a really cool metaphor.
- [42:14]
Mikhail Klintman
Oh, my goodness. We definitely talk about that framing and the story about how she landed on calling it the wallpaper and how that comes into play so everybody can hear about that in her episode. And I'll definitely introduce the two of you, of course, so that you can touch base on all those things because I think you have a lot to talk about. Perfect. Well, we will of course have links in the show, notes for your book and ways to connect and things like that. But, you know, for everyone who's now so excited to be able to learn more from you and to connect, you know, what's their best path to do?
- [42:48]
Melina Palmer
So it is. I'm working at Lund University in Sweden, so if you want to get in contact with me by email or you can write to Mikael Clintman at lu. No at Soc Lu Se. So it's Soc Lu se. And then of course would be wonderful if you'd like to take a look at the book as well.
- [43:25]
Mikhail Klintman
Perfect. Well, like I said, we will have links to make it as easy as possible for people to check that out. And just thank you again for joining me and shedding some more light on these options within framing that people potentially hadn't considered considered and helping to give them, you know, a version of a framework of ways to be thinking about different options for frames. So, yeah, thank you so much.
- [43:47]
Melina Palmer
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, Melina. So take care.
- [43:52]
Thank you again to Mikhail Klintman for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I absolutely loved the example of the Patek Philippe watch and how reframing the value proposition position can be so impactful on what people think about the investment in this product.
- [44:12]
Mikhail Klintman
Sure, it's just a watch, but they.
- [44:14]
Melina Palmer
Framed it to be so much more than that. That one simple sentence which became part of the patek branding nearly 30 years ago, has had so much impact. This type of brand messaging isn't something you come up with in one iteration. It takes a lot of work and reframes to make that happen. You need to understand what your customer truly cares about, not just what they say they care about and what motivates them. In doing some more research about this, you know I did it said that they weren't marketing to the top 1%, but instead the aspirational 14%. Those who they knew wanted to be a part of that in crowd, but might not know what the best products were. This campaign helped people to see what would help them to live that dream and start their path of a legacy. It's pretty cool stuff. How could this translate into framing for your brand? Who are your current or future customers? What do they care about? How can you use McAle's four framing elements of texture, temperature, position and size to make your point? When it comes to sales language, I always recommend people go see what their top salespeople have as their go to lines, and to also listen to what their bottom salespeople are saying. They might be talking about the same features or benefits, but framing them in a completely different way. Is one heating things up while the other is cooling them down? Or is someone else making it seem rough when it should feel smooth? Hopefully these lenses of framing will give you a place to start as you begin to analyze the frames in your work. Whether it's marketing, sales, internal communication or anything else, I can't wait to hear about it. Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. Don't forget there are links in the show notes to make that easy, along with links to my top related past episodes and books, including framing and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@thebrainybusiness.com 4845 and thank you again to Dr. Mikhail Klintman for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
- [46:50]
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.