488. The Art of Getting Along

Summary

The Brainy Business Podcast | Episode 488: The Art of Getting Along with Amy Gallo

Release Date: April 15, 2025

In Episode 488 of The Brainy Business, host Melina Palmer engages in an insightful conversation with Amy Gallo, a renowned workplace expert and best-selling author. Together, they delve into the intricacies of interpersonal dynamics in the workplace, drawing from behavioral economics and psychology to provide actionable strategies for fostering more harmonious and productive work environments.

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1. Introducing Amy Gallo: Expertise and Journey

Timestamp: 00:33 – 07:48

Melina Palmer opens the episode by introducing Amy Gallo, highlighting her extensive background as a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review (HBR), co-host of HBR's Women at Work podcast, and author of several influential books, including Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People. Amy shares her unexpected career trajectory—from working in HIV prevention organizations and management consulting to becoming a pivotal figure at HBR. She notes, “A lot of it was lucky and it just sort of built. It was a very small thing. I was just writing copy for, you know, it was like an hourly thing. And then it snowballed from there” (07:48).

2. The Essence of "Getting Along"

Timestamp: 13:54 – 17:00

Amy clarifies that Getting Along isn’t about maintaining superficial harmony but about navigating the complexities of human interactions. She emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence, negotiation, and communication skills in fostering meaningful relationships at work. “Getting along is not about we smile and we see eye to eye on everything... It is about navigating the messiness of human interaction” (14:09). Amy underscores that effective relationships contribute to higher cognitive functioning and resilience among team members.

3. Understanding the Eight Archetypes of Difficult People

Timestamp: 35:03 – 31:05

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Amy’s book, which categorizes difficult individuals into eight archetypes: the Insecure Boss, the Pessimist, the Victim, the Passive-Aggressive Peer, the Know-It-All, the Biased Co-worker, the Tormentor, and the Political Operator. Amy explains that these archetypes are derived from extensive research, including surveys and interviews, to provide tailored strategies for each type. “The eight archetypes were based on my interviews with people who were experiencing difficult people at work and what they were noticing about the behaviors that were most common” (28:49).

4. Deep Dive: The Pessimist Archetype

Timestamp: 35:03 – 43:53

Amy chooses to elaborate on the Pessimist archetype, describing how pessimistic individuals often focus on risks and potential problems, contrasting with optimists who seek opportunities. She connects this behavior to the social psychology framework of prevention focus versus promotion focus. Amy suggests strategies such as granting pessimists a formal role like "devil's advocate" to channel their concerns constructively. “Treating their pessimism not as an obstacle or a problem, but as a benefit to the team” (40:49). She provides sample language for engaging with pessimists without polarizing interactions, fostering a more balanced and productive dialogue.

5. Cognitive Biases Impacting Workplace Relationships

Timestamp: 23:33 – 26:17

The discussion touches upon cognitive biases like naive realism and confirmation bias, which often skew our perceptions of colleagues. Amy explains, “Naive realism is we believe we're seeing things so clearly, and if someone disagrees with us, then they're misinformed or they're just wrong” (16:03). She highlights the importance of recognizing that others may have different perspectives and that our interpretations are just one of many possible viewpoints. This awareness is crucial for mitigating conflicts and enhancing mutual understanding.

6. Practical Strategies for Managing Difficult Interactions

Timestamp: 32:45 – 42:49

Amy advocates for an experimental mindset in relationships, encouraging individuals to try different tactics based on research to improve interactions. She emphasizes self-reflection and adaptability, stating, “If we really take a close look on what’s happening... we can change our own reaction, thoughts, behavior, that change is possible” (32:45). Amy also discusses the significance of empathy and proactive communication in transforming challenging relationships into neutral or even positive ones.

7. Personal Anecdotes and Real-World Applications

Timestamp: 16:54 – 22:00

Amy shares a personal story about handling a difficult pitch approver, illustrating the emotional toll and cognitive load that such interactions can impose. This anecdote underscores the practical challenges of applying theoretical strategies and the importance of maintaining emotional resilience. She reflects, “No one can force the person to see it the way you see it. In fact, there's this concept in social psychology called naive realism...” (22:00).

8. Promoting Empathy and Inclusivity in the Workplace

Timestamp: 44:50 – 45:18

Melina and Amy discuss the broader implications of empathy in diverse and cross-cultural organizations. Amy emphasizes the need to expand one’s "circle of empathy" to include more colleagues, fostering a more inclusive and cooperative work environment. “Make more people part of your 'us.' That's a great...” (45:14).

9. Conclusion and Resources

Timestamp: 45:44 – 52:51

As the episode wraps up, Amy provides listeners with resources to connect further, including her website, LinkedIn, and HBR articles. Melina Palmer highlights the importance of implementing the discussed strategies to build better workplace relationships and announces the next episode featuring Rosalind Chow. The conversation concludes with a motivational reminder to approach difficult interactions thoughtfully and equipped with the right tools.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Getting along is not about we smile and we see eye to eye on everything... It is about navigating the messiness of human interaction.” — Amy Gallo (14:09)

• “Naive realism is we believe we're seeing things so clearly, and if someone disagrees with us, then they're misinformed or they're just wrong.” — Amy Gallo (16:03)

• “Treating their pessimism not as an obstacle or a problem, but as a benefit to the team.” — Amy Gallo (40:49)

• “Make more people part of your 'us.' That's a great...” — Amy Gallo (45:14)

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Key Takeaways:

1. Identify Archetypes: Understanding the specific type of difficult colleague you’re dealing with allows for more targeted and effective strategies.
2. Self-Reflection: Recognize your own biases and perspectives to improve interactions and reduce conflicts.
3. Empathy and Communication: Foster empathy and open communication to transform challenging relationships into neutral or positive ones.
4. Cognitive Awareness: Being aware of cognitive biases like naive realism and confirmation bias can help in managing perceptions and responses.
5. Practical Application: Implement research-based tactics with an experimental mindset to find what works best in your unique workplace dynamics.

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For those looking to enhance their workplace relationships and navigate the complexities of human interactions effectively, Getting Along by Amy Gallo offers a comprehensive guide backed by research and practical insights. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to Amy's work and additional resources.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Welcome to episode 488 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy Today's episode is all about getting along with Amy Gallo. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[Amy Gallo]

Hello. Hello everyone.

[Melina Palmer]

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Do you have that person at work.

[Amy Gallo]

Or in life that no matter what.

[Melina Palmer]

You do, you can never make any headway? That tormentor at work or a passive aggressive boss, or the pessimistic know it all on the team that will derail every project they get wind of. It may feel like there's nothing to be done, that they will always be them and you will always be you. And so you just have to deal.

[Amy Gallo]

With it, suck it up and do.

[Melina Palmer]

Your best to navigate around them or push through, even if they fight it. I am pleased to report that it doesn't have to be this way. My guest on today's refreshed episode, which originally aired in March of 2023, is Amy Gallo. Amy is a workplace expert who writes and speaks about effective communication, interpersonal dynamics, gender, difficult conversations and feedback. She is the best selling author of Getting along, how to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People and the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict as well as hundreds of articles for Harvard Business Review where she's also served as an editor. Amy's also the co host of HBR's popular Women at Work podcast which examines the struggles and successes of women in the workplace. She is frequently sought out by media outlets for her perspective on workplace dynamics, conflicts and difficult, difficult conversations. Her advice has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, and Marketplace, as well as on npr, wnyc, the BBC and abc, which is Australian Broadcasting Corporation. And as you might have guessed based on the intro, our conversation is centered around getting along and working with anyone, even difficult people. Get your notes ready. You're going to want to take them. So much great advice in this conversation. And don't forget, there are links for my top related past episodes and books waiting for you in the show Notes for this episode, which are found within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 488 all right, let's talk about getting along. Amy Gallo, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Amy Gallo]

Thank you so much for having me. Melina I'm excited about this conversation.

Absolutely. I'm so, so delighted. As I will have said in the intro, we've got south by Southwest connections, and I saw that you were also then coming to Seattle to promote your book. And so I did the haul. It's, you know, 90 minutes or so to drive up there to go solidarity.

[Melina Palmer]

Support you doing your talk.

[Amy Gallo]

Because these days, you know, I was like, in person stuff at night, you know, it's like there are going to be two people there or 200 people there. You know, who knows?

Right, Right. You are such a trooper for making that trip and showing up. I love it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And I want. And I'm so glad that I did, for all the reasons. And, you know, being able to read your book, it's just such a perfect fit for what we talk about here on the show, and I am so excited to share it with everyone. And before we get to the book.

[Melina Palmer]

Can you share a little bit about.

[Amy Gallo]

Yourself and your background in the work that you do?

Sure. So I wear many hats. One of them is book author, which we'll talk about. Another is contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, where I edit articles, write articles, and also am a co host of the Women at Work podcast. And the third hat I wear is as a leadership coach. And I have a very small leadership coaching practice where I work with executives mostly around communication and conflict, the topics that. That I love.

Yeah, well, while it's not all about such things, I know a thousand percent everyone listening has dreamed at some point, maybe not everyone, we'll say 99.9% have dreamed about, you know, being featured in Harvard Business Review, contributing an article, things like that. So I think the question is more like, how did you get so involved with. You know, because there's one thing to be a contributor and get something there, and then there's multiple. And then to be doing the editing and podcasting. Like, what's the, you know, tie in, you know, with hbr? Any.

Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's one of those things where you never plan your career. Things just sort of happen and you end up somewhere. And. And, um, I really never thought I'd be an editor at hbr. I actually never thought I'd be an editor. I. I worked earlier in my career as a management consultant. Before that, I actually worked at HIV prevention organizations right out of college. And through all of those roles, I always really loved writing. And so I would gravitate toward any assignment or project that that involved me writing something. And I wrote Some stuff for the consulting firm I was working with that caught the attention of some HBR editors. And I had a friend actually who worked at hbr and she asked me, she's like, well, why don't you write some copy for us? And so I started writing. Actually, it's very funny. The first thing I wrote for them was the Management Tip of the Day, which is one of their newsletters that summarizes an article and a specific tip, sort of an actionable.

I received that, yes.

And it's. It's their most popular newsletter now. And it's. It's. I worked on it for over a decade, so it was the first thing I did. And that. And that just sort of snowballed. It went from there to, you know, writing articles. And then we sort of formalized the relationship. I became a contributing editor and I started acquiring articles as well. And then the podcast, the Women at Work Podcast actually launched right in the, the. Right around the MeToo movement. You know, HBR really wanted to, you know, have a response to the shifting norms in the workplace and, and what we were seeing around gender in, you know, workplace culture. And I actually, it was a project that started with three other editors and one of them left HBR and they asked me to, to sit in for her. And I was thrilled. It was actually one of my favorite podcasts as a listener. And I was. It's funny if you go back and listen to my first episode, there's just a very short episode where they introduce me and we chat, me and Nike chat about the podcast. And I sound giddy. Like I really. I'm like, I sort of can't believe I'm sitting in that chair. And it's still to this day one of my favorite projects I work on. So to answer your question more directly, a lot of it was lucky and it just sort of built. It was a very small thing. I was just writing copy for, you know, it was like an hourly thing. And then it snowballed from there. And it's. I love being part of the organization. It's obviously very high quality publication, but it's also the people who work there are just super high quality people. And I feel lucky that it's my organizational home at the moment.

No, I love that. And I love that, like you said, it wasn't. Feel like so many of the best stories are the. I was doing the thing I love to do and someone found me. It's the like, sure, it's serendipitous and it shows the value of getting along with people and about having good relationships and being, you know, giving first and then, you know, good things happen. I talk about that all the time. And of course, it ties in with your book, so.

Sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. You know, I'm sure some people would say, don't say you're lucky. Like, you worked hard to get where you were. And it's true. It wasn't. You know, I. I did put in a lot of work on my writing and on the ideas that I was writing about and. And in building relationships. You know, building relationships with my colleagues, but also friends who could make introductions and. And who could also help me see what I was great at. I think that was the. That's the part I loved writing, but I never thought I would do anything with it as a career. And, you know, I had friends who were like. And actually even a mentor at the consulting firm who was just. He said, you are the only person who I don't edit. Right. You write something, and I love it. And it just goes out to our clients. And. And I remember that conversation. I remember exactly where I was standing in that office, even though it was a long time ago, because I was like, oh, he is helping me see what my superpower is. And that's awesome. So helpful.

No, that is awesome. I would also think there's a big lesson for people in. So that management tip of the day being something where as someone who is not the best of friends, with brevity.

Like, love the way you say that. Yeah.

Yeah. For my first book, when my publisher said, okay, you can't be less than 35,000 words, like, what's the max?

Give me the high end. Please give me the high.

Where. Where are we seeing a problem on the other side here? So with that, though, you know, being able to write good subject lines, something that's interesting and catchy, but not clickbait, but giving you a good nugget of something where you don't have to read forever and helping to get those. The. What's the point in a little article like that? Because then you can always expand. But I think there's a lot of skill and importance in that with communicating anything.

Yes, absolutely. And I feel grateful that that was my first assignment because two reasons. Exactly what you're saying. It helped me hone the skill of. What's the quickest way to say this for an impatient reader? Right. Because we presume you're subscribing to the management tip of the day because you're going to skim it you're going to see if it's relevant to you. Maybe you'll read all 120 words of it. Maybe you'll, you know, just read the opening line or the headline. Um, so that was, it helped me hone that skill but then it also exposed me to a lot of what we were publishing. In order to write those management tips I had to read those articles. I'd read other articles we decided not to pull a management tip from. And I got very familiar with the work that was being done by academics, by thought leaders, you know, by executives who were writing for HBR to see what ideas were out there. And that really started that is what led to me writing is because I could see there was so much good work being put out there by people in different fields. And I all of my work, my first book, the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict and my most recent one are taking research that others have done and I don't do any primary research myself. So taking that research and trying to figure out okay, what is the most sort of useful, helpful, practical advice that we can pull from this. And I try to integrate research from different fields, management science, neuroscience, emotional intelligence and let that all inform the advice that I end up giving in my writing.

Yeah, I, I, I'm a big fan of so back what feels like another lifetime ago when I first started doing consulting work as where I had a full time job and then saying oh I need a little, you know, this was the side hustle of things, right. And said ah, I'm, I love to read. I'm typically like correcting people's grammar as I'm reading anyway and so I started doing book editing where I had a friend that helped people get their books written and you know, published and so I went through and did book editing and I'm reading about how to optimize the lighting and getting people into be use a dressing room at a, at a retail location because it increases the likelihood they're going to buy. And another one is the Myers Briggs personality type expert piece. And then just, just so many different types of books on very different things and always going well that's interesting. I want that I wonder how that applies Personal finance or you know.

Right.

Making all those associations that don't seem like they go together and then bringing them together is one of my favorite things. And I think knowing a little bit about a lot of things and a lot about a few things is a really good balance to being able to make interesting connections.

Yeah, we are compatriots in that. For sure, for sure.

Well, speaking of that, as I was reading your book, there's so much of like, oh, I say that all the time. Oh, I totally agree with that. Right. So let's talk a little bit about getting along and how you of course, get along perfectly with every person you've ever met in your whole life. Right. That's what the book's about.

That's right. I have nothing but high quality, drama free relationships in every arena of my life. Thanks for recognizing.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. You're wonderful and perfect in every relationship. Okay. So in case the listener can't pick up on the sarcasm, that's of course not the, the world that we live in. So share a little bit about what getting along is really about.

Yeah, I mean, and to be clear, I mean, obviously very sarcastic, but I don't think I could write a book about relationships and high quality relationships at work if I hadn't made a lot of mistakes and continue to make them. Right. That's how we learn. So, you know, and for me, getting along is not about we smile and we see eye to eye on everything and you give me an idea and I'm like, that's perfect, I'm going to run with it. Right. It is about navigating the messiness of human interaction and recognizing that we are not all our best selves all the time, especially at work, and that we need the skills and emotional intelligence skills, negotiation skills, communication skills to be able to make the most of these very important relationships. And I say very important because we spend a lot of time at work, for sure. So it would be, it's much more pleasant to actually get along with people you work with. But there's also decades of research that show that people perform better, have higher cognitive functioning, are more resilient, see challenges as less thorny if they have friends at work. And so, and I'm not, you know, the book is really about dealing with difficult people. And I'm not saying that that really challenging person is going to become your bff, but there are ways to make that relationship more productive, evidence based ways to make that relationship more productive. And even if it doesn't end up being positive, at least making it neutral so it's not having the mental and physical toll that we know those, those tricky relationships do have on us.

Yeah, for sure. In my second book, I talk a lot about the, the time pressure and the stress it creates on people when there's, in this case, in what your employees need and can't Tell you, I'm talking about it from the sake of extra deadlines and all the miscommunications of not sharing as much up front and the like. Do you have five minutes and a slack chat and a thing and just all. If we were, if we're a little more thoughtful up front, we could reduce this time and we have more time to be creative and think. But I love that in this way. And what you're saying is the same problem from a different piece of. We've all had that person that's difficult to work with at work that we don't get along with. And I, you know, in the. You have so many things that one relates to as they're reading at various relationships over time. And like say the, the name that comes in on your inbox and you.

Go, ugh, yeah, that's right. You're like, oh boy, do I have to open this?

Right, Right. And we don't want to have that. And that's a conditioned response that we've created. So it's one that we can adjust if we focus on it so it doesn't create that same stress, you know, thinking about just all the extra cognitive load that comes from these difficult relationships. And you have stories about, you know, from yourself or from others that it's the, you know, at night you can't stop thinking about the thing. I particularly love the story and it's pretty early on, but of the email of the person. So you already know what I'm saying. I do.

I call him Brad. That's not his real name, but yes. It's this email with someone who wanted to write for HBR and sent in a pitch to another editor and then followed up with me and asked if we could hop on the phone. And to be clear, like that's part of my job is to find new contributors. But I also, if I got on the phone with every would be contributor, I would be on the phone right now and probably into like 2030. Right. It's just there's. I simply just don't have the time. And it looked like we weren't going to accept the submission he had put in. So again, it wasn't a good use of my time. So I declined politely twice. And after the second polite decline, I think it was polite. He wrote an email telling me that he couldn't handle the ego, that human connection was the most important thing, and that he was going to take his writing elsewhere. And, you know, I probably received, let's be conservative, 150 emails that day. I cannot tell you what any of them said, but I can recite that that interaction was over two years ago, and I can recite word for word what he wrote in that email because it was so upsetting. And it's. And I was up for three nights in a row thinking about, was he right? Like, do I not care about human connection? Should I have gotten on the phone with him? Maybe the. Maybe my email wasn't as polite as I thought it was. And then, you know, of course, the. Like, what a jerk. Thoughts. Right? Then just the. The. And the revenge fantasies of, I'm gonna send him an email that sets him straight. I'm gonna publish his email on social media. Like, just the horrible things. Luckily, none of which I did. And it's actually funny you bring up that story, Valena, because I was. I just did a talk two nights ago in New York City, and someone in the audience had read the book and said, I don't think you handled the Brad situation right, and actually really challenged me on it. And it was. It was. First of all, I love difficult questions during a talk just because it's, you know, it's what I study. So I'm like, how are we going to handle this conflict? This is fun. But also, it pushed me to think, like, did I feel like I handled it correctly? And I do. I still feel strongly that it wasn't worth my time to have the call. I was quite polite. I explained why I wouldn't be able to meet with him. And, you know, but it's still in there. And I think it really speaks to the negativity bias of. Our brains are so wired to scan for threat that we are so focused on negative things. Whether that's a negative email. Right. A snarky email like the one Brad sent, or whether it's a challenging relationship. Right. I can have 45 positive interactions at work, but if one person challenges me in a meeting and, you know, I go home at the end of the day or I log off at the end of the day, what I tell my spouse is, ugh, listen to what happened in this meeting. I don't say, oh, I had a great interaction with so and so. And so. And so is doing good. You know, we're really focused on the negative.

Right? Yeah. So the person who challenged you at the talk, now I'm intrigued. What. What did they. What were they suggesting you should have done differently in the Brad interaction? That you should have had the call or that you should have. Oh, yeah.

Well, she thought it was a missed opportunity. For a connection. She thought Brad was right about human connection. Now I see her point. I have to say, it's funny. She's also. She identified herself as a. As a conflict mediation expert. So she was also coming to that story with some expertise. And I think she thought, well, yeah, you missed out on this is part of your job is assessing potential contributors. And why wouldn't you have the call? And a few of my fellow editors were in the audience, and afterwards, they were like, do they understand, like, how many? And. And, you know, I don't. I didn't feel I owed Brad anything. But she saw it differently. She thought Brad, you know, as a. As someone who had put effort into writing a pitch, into, you know, doing research on what we were looking for in articles, that I. That I did owe him the courtesy of a. Of a phone call. I'm still very glad I. I didn't have it. But. But I think her perspective points out something really important, which I talk about in the book, which is that Brad has a different viewpoint of what happened than I do. Strangers, now that I've shared that story, you know, in my book, strangers have a different viewpoint of that. And anytime you have a tricky interaction with someone, you can't force the person to see it the way you see it. In fact, there's this concept in social psychology called naive realism, which is we believe we're seeing things so clearly, and if someone disagrees with us, then they're misinformed or they're just wrong. And I think that. That her challenging me was a classic example of that, which is that no one, you know, and actually, if we think about, like, another editor who had been on the receiving end of the. The Brad exchange, they might have handled it differently. Maybe they would have had the call. Maybe they would have ignored his email and never responded at all. Right. But who knows? And so that's, I think, one of the most important things when we're interacting with others and we find ourselves triggered or upset or feeling like, ugh, this person is so difficult that there are many ways to view that situation, and you have to own your interpretation as your perspective.

Yeah, I was gonna. Where it felt like we're jumping ahead in a lot of ways, but, you know, so you have your nine principles that come up in toward the end of the book, the end of part two, and where one of them being your perspective is just one perspective, and to have that awareness, and there's the confirmation bias that's in there. And so whenever I do a talk on confirmation bias, I'll show an image, I'll say like, tell me in less than three words what this image is about. I'm going to show it for a very short period of time. Ready, go. And you know, two seconds and then it's gone. And you know, then people shout something out and I have a couple that I know where I can say like, thank you, you're all wrong. That's not what the image is about. Like, it's actually about this other thing, you know, that's something super obscure that happened to be there. Like what? You're ridiculous. And we do that at work all the time, right? Where we say like, this is the only way to be. Right. Wendy Smith was just on the show talking about both and thinking and how, you know, paradoxical issues we have at work. And the again, your perspective is just one perspective. And being able to step back and know that for me to be right doesn't mean everyone else has to be wrong.

That's right. That's right. And your interpretation of what's appropriate behavior at work is not going to be the same. Right. And I think that's one of the things, especially if you think about working in cross cultural organizations, organizations that have a lot of diversity, which hopefully your organization does because it leads to lots of great outcomes that you are not. Like you're going to disagree on everything from whether it's okay to be late to a meeting to what's the solution for this quarter's budget shortfall. Right. Like, and, and in deciding that someone is just simply wrong or their behavior is inappropriate. Right. I can't tell you how many people will come up to me and say, listen to what my coworker did. And they're like, isn't that inappropriate? Like, well they, they seem to think it was appropriate. So I can have my own judgment on it. But it's up to you and that person to find a path forward. It's not you to decide. I'm the judge of their behavior. Now of course there is behavior that is harmful, disrespectful. Right. And that, that we have to, to acknowledge and have rules and norms about. But a lot of the stuff, like is it okay to say a won't send a one word response to an email? Right. Some people would be like, they are so rude. Right. And others are like efficient. Love it. Great. Thank you so much. Right.

Yes. That reminds me of. So Zoe Chance in influencer is your superpower. And she says no is a complete sentence. No, thank you is a polite complete sentence that's right.

[Melina Palmer]

That's right.

[Amy Gallo]

I love Zoe.

That's great. I know. Who doesn't love Zoe? She's just one of my favorite people. Let's talk a little bit about the book. So you have the seven types, eight. Okay, I know that's. I was getting the. It's like nine principles and the, you.

Know, I know it's funny, that is something we discussed in the editing. Like, is it confusing? Do we need the same number of principles as the archetypes? But anyway, yes, we've got eight archetypes, nine principles. I find it pretty straightforward. I hope others do.

Oh, for sure. I just didn't make a good note. I didn't make a good enough note. Now I know. So with those, can you share a little bit about the eight archetypes and the structure of the book here? Because we all. And I really loved when you were talking about this at the town hall in Seattle. And I would by no means expect you to remember any of what you said at any particular talk because I'm sure you talk about it all, all the time. But, you know, just being able to kind of introduce and show that, you know, anything that is the, this is the one thing that will always work in every situation and you never have to look at anything else. You know, there are different things that people are doing that are important to be aware of. So kind of how do you sort out the archetypes that you came to? And why is it important to look at the different behaviors differently?

Yeah, well, there were two main things I wanted to do with this book. One is to give people specific evidence based advice for the situation they were dealing with. So a lot of books about difficult people or relationships at work talk very generically about how to address, you know, someone who's pushing your buttons. And what I was finding, especially in my first book, did this right. The Guide to Dealing with Conflict was a pretty high level in terms of, well, a very specific approach to handling conflict. But it wasn't about specific types of conflict. And what I would find when I was talking about the book at workshops or keynotes is that inevitably someone would ask me, well, can I tell you about this one situation? And they would want advice for dealing with a certain pattern of behavior. Almost always it was like about passive aggression, believe it or not.

And so I very much believe it.

And so the what I knew from my work at hbr, I was like, there is research on these specific patterns of behavior and how to work with someone who exhibits them. Why isn't there A book that actually delivers that specific advice. And so the reason I structured it around archetypes is I wanted people to be able to see what they were experiencing in the description of the archetypes. So the common behaviors, and then find the several tactics that might or might not work. I don't guarantee any 100% success, but that you can then try out for dealing with that type of behavior that you're experiencing. And so then the eight archetypes were based on my interviews with people who were experiencing surveys and interviews with people who were experiencing difficult people at work and what they were noticing about the behaviors that were most common. So the archetypes are really meant to give people a way into the specific advice that they need. I will say the. The thing that I hesitate about the archetypes, and I have a little bit of mixed feelings about them, is I don't want them to be misused as dismissive labels. I don't want people to decide, Amy's passive aggressive, I don't have to deal with her. Right. Or Paul's a know it all, I'm done with him. Right. It's not. They're not. They're really meant to be. How do I get the tactics that have been shown in research to work for this specific type of behavior? Now, the second thing I wanted to do with the book, and I hadn't seen done much in similar books, was to talk about how identity plays a role, both in terms of how we interpret difficult behavior and also in terms of the tactics that we can use and that are effective for someone who shares the identity that we have. So I do try to pay attention to gender, race, other issues, identity factors, and how that both complicates these tricky interactions, but then also feeds into what we can and cannot do to solve them.

Yeah. And I will say, as a reader of the book, and I'm sure you've gotten this feedback, I think that if they weren't called out in the way that you do, and you do such a great job of using terms that people use anyway, like you said, the know it all, or like they're just passive aggressive and it's just a thing that you throw out there. And you, of course, do a great job too, of saying, like, let's not be calling people narcissists. That's a. That's a whole thing like that is a diagnosable condition. That's different. Then we just don't slap that label and throw terms like that around. But because it uses language that people already Use and then shows there's a bunch of research that shows some stuff that you can be doing in a way to understand them and yourself and what you're do, what you're contributing to the situation and how. Same with the, you know, focusing illusion, the confirmation bias piece we were talking about already, that if you're going into everything saying, well, they're just this, then they'll always be that. But if you start with you and you make a change, those ripples of change are very, very possible. So I believe, having read the book, that it does a very good job of helping where someone may have done that without the assistance of the book to see that they have a resource to show that that doesn't have to be true. It may have needed to have been true for you before, but it doesn't have to be the way that you proceed. And there are some things that you can be doing and trying and knowing some things that you should definitely not do because it's going to make it worse if you're approaching that archetype in the wrong way.

I appreciate that. I mean, it's nights to hear that it works. But it's also, I mean, you're pointing out one of the themes that I actually don't, I don't think I talk about as explicitly, which is that I really want to give people hope that change is possible. I think one of the things that I see in all my talks and my coaching is that there's just a tendency to really, because of the harm that this uncivil treatment or these patterns of behavior cause, there's just a sort of pessimism about like, well, will they ever change? Will this dynamic ever change? And sometimes the answer is no. But I believe that if we really take a close look on what, what's happening, what could be motivating that behavior, we, as you say, work on ourselves, change our own reaction, thoughts, behavior, that change is possible. And, and it may not be possible in the first, second or third try, but it's worth, not just for that relationship, but for you as a person to continue to try because we, that's how we develop that interpersonal resilience, right? Is that we, we, you know, take a tactic that we. Has been shown to work in research, we try it out, we see if it works. It doesn't work. Okay, what did I learn? Move on to another tactic, right? Or oh, that actually worked, but let me tweak it a little bit and try again. And, and, and really trying to have that sort of scientist, experimental mindset for our relationships as opposed to like, oh God, this is no, like, this is just the way it is. Which I think is a total human reaction when you're frustrated and when you feel dehumanized, devalued. Right. Like there's, it's a normal reaction to shut down when you're on the receiving end, especially of some of the more harmful behaviors that, that people exhibit at work.

Yeah, definitely. Well, on that. Can you share a little bit about what the eight archetypes are? And then if you want to, you know, pick one to jump into to share a little bit about to kind of show what people will get from the book. I think that would be fun. And you can pick the most common one or one you don't get to talk about very often. Whatever feels good to you works for me. Okay, good, good, good.

So the eight are the insecure boss, the pessimist, the victim, the passive aggressive peer, the know it all, the biased co worker, the tormentor, and the political operator. And oh gosh, it's funny, I, everyone sometimes people are like, what's your favorite? I'm like, I don't like any of them. They're all horrible. But I do love, you know, one of the ones I don't get to talk about much is the, is the pessimist. And, and I think it's, it's. I think it's partly because the behavior doesn't feel as extreme as, as like the passive aggressive, which is incredibly challenging to deal with, or the tormentor. Right. Someone who you expect to be a mentor but actually is, is undermining you. But the pessimist is interesting because I think all of us have a little bit of, of that in us, and I think, you know, we hear a lot lately. And actually I'm curious if you've had guests on who talk about this, but like the, the culture of toxic positivity that's happening in so many organizations where people just this insistence that we, you know, be optimistic and focus on the, the upsides and, and sort of any challenge to that happiness feeling is seen as, as so bad. And I, and I think the pessimist plays an important role and I think we're losing, we're losing touch with, with what is important about someone who has a pessimistic attitude now. So that, that was my preamble for why I wanted to talk about it. But, but the, it's also incredibly frustrating. I mean, this is like, you know, the Eeyore of your office, the, the chicken little just like the sky is falling, I think, I think in the uk, the Henny Penny is the name of that character. It, it can be incredibly hindering to progress, right, to actually making meaningful progress on your work together. So it's, it's not just like, oh, it's annoying that someone's a pessimist. It's. It can have real costs for you in terms of your psych. Actually, pessimism is contagious in the same way optimism is, but also for the team, if it really holds the team back. So in each of the archetype chapters, I talk about what are the common behaviors, what might be motivating this behavior? And for the pessimist, it's interesting, there's this framework in social psychology of prevention focus versus promotion focus. And promotion focused people tend to be optimistic. They look at opportunities right there. They are expansive in their thinking quite a lot. Whereas prevention focused people are really focused on what are the risks, how do we guard against those coming to be. They tend to be pessimistic. And that is likely what's feeding into your pessimistic colleague's attitude. And then I talk about questions you want to ask yourself before you try to, you know, approach, you know, changing the dynamic. So in this case, one of the questions you know, would, would be, you know, do they have good reason to be pessimistic? Are they pointing out things that are genuinely problems that other people are ignoring? And, you know, that. That's just an example. And then I share, I call, I like to call them a menu of tactics, right? Things you can try out. And also some cautions, like one of the cautions with a pessimist. You know, pessimists think optimists are morons. So if you sit there, if you counter their, like, that will never work with, yes, it will. You're just not seeing the, you know, the upside. They will just dig deeper into their, into their pessimism, into their negativity. So you really want to be careful not to polarize with them. You have to sort of grant them their premise of, yeah, wow, okay, I could see how that wouldn't work. Well, what would make it work? Like, what would have to be true for this to actually succeed? Or if you were in charge, like, how would you remove the obstacles in the way of that succeeding? And I do try to give sample. I'm a big fan of sample language. Not that you would read that line from the book out loud to your colleague, but it does give people a sense of what it sounds like to Actually try to put some of this advice in action and really giving. One of the things about optimist is. Or sorry, pessimists is that they don't often don't feel like they have agency. Like, they don't feel like they're. They. They think bad things are going to happen and they have no way of changing that. And so giving them agency, even if it's just hypothetical, like if you were in charge or, well, what could we do? Let's remove all obstacles. Let's not think about cost or time or resources. What. What would we be able to do? And just trying to give them that sense of agency. The other thing is you can give them a formal role to play as, you know, the devil's advocate or disagreer in chief, that they actually, you know, you make it their job to point out the risk. Like, you are really good at identifying what things that we might be missing or things that could go wrong. So we're going to turn to you when we need that perspective. Right. And then it's sort of treating their pessimism not as an obstacle or a problem, but as a benefit to the team. And it also helps to sort of. Right. Size that negativity that they might be sharing as opposed to sort of letting them spew it all over the meeting. Right. It gives them a real focal point for that. For that attitude and that perspective, for sure.

And then not just like spinning on all of what they're not able to say. You know, it's like building up the, like, I can't take it anymore and then just go with all the things that have been bugging you. Whereas like you said, if there's some space to share intentionally and then hopefully, you know, looking for some balance that if they are given the opportunity to share those negative aspects, to then help see some of the positives as well. Being part of that process.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And helping all the optimistic morons like me to see. I was, when I was reading it, said, oh, so many people think I'm a.

Well, and you know what, to be fair, like, we don't have the. I mean, I can. I identify as an optimist too. Like, we don't have the best perspective on them. Like, we think they're a total downer. Like. And so it's just sort of trying to bridge that. That gap. I mean, I do in the book, I think in every chapter, talk about sort of times where I've actually exhibited this behavior. I mean, I identify really with all the. Of all the Archetypes I identify the most with the know it all. But they're, you know, I can be passive aggressive. I certainly can be biased. I can play off as politics sometimes. And not the healthiest way. Right. Like, we've all been there. So instead of trying to really put your colleague in this box and use your confirmation bias just to prove how terrible they are, right. You're trying to give that dynamic between you some space to change and evolve and sometimes saying, like, I get it, like, yeah, I don't have the best outlook today either. Right? Like that. That can sometimes bridge that and give them, like you say, like, give them a sense of like, okay, like, they're not a complete moron. They've got some valid points. And then you hopefully can evolve and transform the dynamic from there.

For sure. We didn't have time to talk about it today, but I love the concept of fundamental attribution error. And I'm going to have my episode on. It is going to be the one that I refresh. I do two episodes a week, so the Tuesday is one from the back catalog, since we're in the. This episode is going to be about 2 seconds, 270, 269, something like that when this one comes out. So there's a lot from, you know, four or five years ago that people haven't, you know, heard maybe. So it's fun to bring them back. So I'll have fundamental attribution error come out just before this one because it's a good one to put in there. I also talk about it in the case of being late for a meeting and how, you know, you give yourself the benefit of the doubt, but other people maybe aren't. You think, oh, what a jerk, they're lazy, whatever else. But the way I say it too is similar to what you were just saying, is to not have a complex, but know that you are lots of other people's them. In the, like, us versus them world, you're a lot of people's them. And we need to internalize that and do what we can to adjust it.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Someone recently asked me. They're like, if you. If you can't identify anyone you work with who fits into any of the archetypes, does that mean you're one of the archetypes? I was like, I can't say for sure, but there's a good chance you're one of the archetypes, because we all are. And, yeah, I have to go back and listen to that episode on fundamental attribution error, it is for me one of the. It's one of the most important concepts when it comes to trying to improve relationships with people who push your buttons is remembering how we're all prone to assignments, you know, others with negative attributes. When we give ourselves, when we understand the circumstances in which we made all these decisions. Right. Like, I can rationalize my know it allness to the end of the day, but when someone else talks over me, talks down to me mansplains, I'm like, ugh, what a horrible person.

Right, right, right. For sure. Yeah, it's. I love that concept too. I think it's one too just even understanding our circles of empathy and how we get, you know, siloed organizations and marketing versus finance or whatever that when you say we're team company, you know, it can make things a lot better just by having a tiny shift. When you have more people be part of your us, it can make a big difference.

Yeah, I love that. Make more people part of your us. That's a great. I love that. Yeah.

Oh, fun. I love it. Well, I could of course talk to you all day. I love all the, the knowledge that you have. I'm so delighted that you came to share it with us here on the show. And of course in Getting along, which we'll have linked in the show notes. And for everyone who does want to learn more about you and the book and, you know, connect or whatever else follow you somewhere, you know, what's their best path to doing so.

Yeah, well, you can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on LinkedIn. But also my website is really the best place amygallo.com and that has links to where you can buy the book, depending on where you like to shop. It also has a link to connect with me via my newsletter to follow me there and any. If you're interested also in my writing for HBR, you can just google hbr.org and my name and you'll see the hundreds of articles I've written there as well as the podcast episodes for women at work.

Absolutely. And we will make it even easier in that all the links will be in the show notes so it's easy for people to find. Knowing that this is potentially a very unfair question because I know that they're all ones babies and favorites. Do you have a favorite podcast episode? I know you mentioned the your very first time when you got introduced, but maybe a concept or a topic of something you say people were going to start and they were going to go listen to one. Do you have one that comes to mind that you would recommend or an article or anything?

There are. Oh, this is really hard to choose. The. I will say the women at work, but don't listen to my first episode because I sound silly. I'm sorry. Like, just, like I said, giddy. But. But there are. There's actually a bunch of episodes, a series of episodes called One is Sisterhood is Scarce, Another is called Sisterhood is Trust, which featured the research of Dr. Tina Opie and her colleague Beth Livingston about how women from different racial backgrounds can work together to create change in their organization and the work that's required, the personal work that's required to make that happen. And those are just some of my favorite episodes we've done. I mean, I could list like 10 right now. The other thing I will say, if you are interested in the book, I did a series of four podcasts for women at work based on the book, where I actually coached women who were having a difficult relationship at work and needed help navigating that. And so I used the archetypes as well as the advice in the book to sort of coach them through how can they make change and transform that dynamic?

Oh, wonderful. Those, I'm sure, are all fantastic. I will make sure to find them and we'll link them in the show notes as well for people to be able to listen to. And like you said, with the language in the book, things like that, being able to hear it from. Straight from you and have some of that language is always so, so helpful. So I'm sure people will enjoy that a lot. And the book definitely worth picking up. Everybody, you will not be sorry when you get that. So thank you again, Amy, for joining me on the show. It was so, so wonderful to learn from you today.

Thank you, Melina. And I look forward to seeing you in Austin.

Yay.

[Melina Palmer]

So what got your brain buzzing as you learned from Amy today? For me, whenever I think of Amy, I think of south by Southwest. She and I connected as I was getting ready to speak there for the first time. And she was so kind in providing me tips and insights before going to Austin. Funny enough, at the time of recording this refresh, I just saw Amy again in Austin as we were both speaking at south by southwest 2025. She had several talks, including the opening session, and I moderated a panel called Enough with the Delving Staying Human in the Age of AI, which featured Ben Gutman, Joanna Lepore, and Usama Fayed, which was such a great conversation. I'm hoping to get the audio and release it as an episode sometime soon, so keep an eye or an ear out for that. Anyway, Amy and I got to spend a little time together and chat again after the session she did about gossip, which was fascinating and she told me that she premiered it there at south by super great. I hope it's going to be out and about soon into the world because it was really interesting information. It's always so great to connect with her because she truly is so generous and kind and really walks the talk on her connections with people and the advice that she gives in her books and work. I really love how vulnerable she gets with her audience, whether it's in the book or on a podcast or up on a stage. She owns her missteps because you know, we all have them and she explains them in a relatable way that others can learn from. It's really amazing and such a gift. Amy's kind nature and tendency to be generous and awesome is actually the reason why I'm refreshing this episode today. The guest on the next episode is Rosalind Chow, who's discussing her book the Doors you can Open. In it she shares a story of how she got connected to Amy and then Amy made a referral and connection for Roslyn that opened some doors for her. That kindness stuck with Roslyn enough to include it in her book and inspired.

[Amy Gallo]

Me to do this refresh today to.

[Melina Palmer]

Help spread the goodness. And trust me, you are going to love that episode. We talk about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship, like what we saw here in this experience with Amy and Rosalind, as well as the difference between power and status and which one you have more of and how you can gain them and that you can still be a sponsor no matter what. Just really, really great information for everyone to be able to know and share out in the world. As we wrap up this episode though here today and the conversation with Amy, I want to remind you and to say that you know, not everyone is going to be easy to work with. You can't wave a magic wand of rainbows and sunshine at work that will make it so there's never a conflict or a difficult moment, but you can have opportunities to be a little more kind in the way you approach others and to be armed with the best way to approach people who see things differently than you so you can have more productive work even with the most difficult people in your office. And when you understand the type of person they are, the type of person you are, what they're struggling with and have those tools to have those better conversations and interactions like what Amy presents in her book. It can make such a huge difference in you feeling confident in having those conversations in a way that can get you unstuck, move it forward, and really just change everything for the better. So who are you going to connect with first?

[Amy Gallo]

Can't wait to hear about it.

[Melina Palmer]

I can't wait to know that you're having such an impact there in your own life and work. And as we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes with links to my top related past episodes and books, including Getting along, of course, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 488 and just like that, episode 488 on getting along with Amy Gallo is done. Join me Friday for a brand new episode with Rosalind Chow, author of the Doors you Can Open. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.